Work to live?

[GardenerB]

Hi all.

Common post topic/question for which I have seen some good threads - e.g. 'How do you deal with the grind?', 'Work to live or live to work' etc.

My question (and maybe face-punch request) - how do you deal with 'work to live' in terms of getting through a work week if/when you have lost complete and total interest in not just the job, but your entire career?

Info- I've been in high-tech for 25 years, just kind of moving around to companies wherever the jobs are- or more accurately being sold/acquired by other companies.  Gradually over the last 5-10 years the products/technology are getting more and more distant from my interests (which are all non-high tech as I get older).  I used to be able to just do the work and not care about the products (I design just one aspect of the product), but now not even that keeps me interested.  If I were to be laid off (most likely with a good severance), I would probably want to 'Office Space'-out like Peter and work outside with my hands (landscaping or anything).  Cannot handle being in a cube farm at all anymore.  Really 'working for the weekends' these days - doing the bare minimum - down in the dumps Mondays, feeling OK by hump-day, then 'hey I can handle this for a few more years 'cause the pay is good' by Fridays.  Repeat weekly.  In the end only the paychecks are satisfying.

Not really yet in a position close to FIRE so do need to work but not necessarily in need of such high pay.  Not keen on changing jobs just for the sake of change since I'm pretty sure I'm done with high-tech after this job.

How about you?  If you are well-paid due to your profession, but have totally lost interest, do you stick with it for the pay, helps get you closer to FIRE earlier?  Helps fund weekend fun/hobbies enough to tolerate the work?

Net searches yield only the usual 'Top 5 perks to find your passion' and other nonsense.  Plus, friends/family think I am nuts to even complain - 'you should be thankful to even have a job'.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

You seem to be a core customer for Mustachianism.  Basically, you do difficult (cerebral) things for good pay but would prefer to do 'real' things.  And yet the economic tides are still flowing toward those with programming, engineering, 'virtual' skills and away from globally saturated manual labor that now competes with the ultimate-low cost of automation.

Basically, save until it hurts.  Carefully monitor the cost of your next life while you do what you can to put one foot in it.  Once you have realistically established how much that next life costs annually, multiply by 25 (for a 4% SWR) and you are fine to retire.  If you aren't there yet, then you need to figure out how much 'leakage' you are willing to trade-off vs. achieving your goal earlier.

There are lots of nuances and interesting twists as you move toward large numbers, but that that is the basic premise.

[steveo]

My question (and maybe face-punch request) - how do you deal with 'work to live' in terms of getting through a work week if/when you have lost complete and total interest in not just the job, but your entire career?

I'm on the same page as you. I have 3 young kids and a decent job with a fair amount of flexibility but I just don't care anymore. Today I went to work expecting a tough day because I have a bunch of meetings but I managed to combine them all into 1. I finished up a bit later than lunch time and then went home. I should do some more work but I'm just not interested. My goal that isn't written down or planned out is to work as little as possible up until my FIRE date. I don't want a promotion or extra work and I don't love my job.

A the moment I am getting away with working basically part time and getting paid full time however it won't last. I just need to keep plugging away until I have enough to FIRE.

For me personally I just try and enjoy each day as much as possible. I like for instance riding my bike to the train station. I also keep focussing on my next saving goal. I suspect that this will continue until about 2020 and then I'll quit.

[Metric Mouse]

One way of life us early retirees will never experience: working a sucky job you hate well past the point you can even stand it, just for a paycheck. I almost feel like I missed out on a rite of passage or something.

[albireo13]

Sounds like me, except that I am 60 yo now.  I am in a well-paying but, soul-sucking job.
My wife and I have just reached our FI number, with no margin yet so, not quite ready to quit yet.
I'll give it a few more years.  In the meantime, I am working on maxing my savings where I can.
Peter in Office Space is my inspiration and hero. 

My wife doesn't want me to retire yet. Our youngest is just starting college and we could see more expenses.

[Metric Mouse]

Sounds like me, except that I am 60 yo now.  I am in a well-paying but, soul-sucking job.
My wife and I have just reached our FI number, with no margin yet so, not quite ready to quit yet.
I'll give it a few more years.  In the meantime, I am working on maxing my savings where I can.
Peter in Office Space is my inspiration and hero. 

My wife doesn't want me to retire yet. Our youngest is just starting college and we could see more expenses.

Empty nester and soon to be FI! Congrats! Huge changes in the next few years - what an amazing journey I imagine.

[Cottonswab]

I have been going through a similar situation.  If you are consistently disatisfied at work, then there is a high likelhood that maintaining the status quo is not the optimal solution.  Therefore, I think if you try hard enough to research alternatives in detail, you will eventually be able to identify a better alternative. 

Since I started becoming disatisfied with my job, I started doing detailed research on alternatives, entering the info into a spreadsheet, try to make objective assessements of each scenario and then create a seriatum ranking of all options.  I review the list and my assessments on a routine basis.  When my current job / career is no longer at the top of the prioritized list, I will leave.

[force majeure]

Try doing a cognitive shift when these feelings hit you at work.
I trained myself to force positive thoughts into place, at times like these.
I had to get some ERE-style funds together since 2011,
had a few bad experiences in jobs, had the proverbial sh*t kicked out of me.
The only solution is to build more stash, that way you will feel better.

"I got a fever, and the only solution is... more cowbell" thats my mantra at work!

[soccerluvof4]

If you dont take some risks in life you will never be happy. Sounds to me like its time to take the risk of making some changes. And yes I did exactly that so speaking from experience. Good luck I hope you find something that you can have passion about as that will bring you the money you will need as well.

[Fastfwd]

One way of life us early retirees will never experience: working a sucky job you hate well past the point you can even stand it, just for a paycheck. I almost feel like I missed out on a rite of passage or something.

Tell me about it. I consider the soul sucking of next 10-15 years before early-ish retirement and I can't imagine being someone who has to do this until 65.

[astephens94]

I'm in a similar boat - a couple things that help me get through the malaise:

- ride a stationary bike 15-20 minutes each morning (helps my mood)
- get outside and take a lap around the parking lot a couple times a day
- don't work through lunch (they can't fire you for eating in a cafeteria 20-30 minutes)

Hang in there! Save everything you can, and GTFO as soon as possible

[spokey doke]

I have been going through a similar situation.  If you are consistently disatisfied at work, then there is a high likelhood that maintaining the status quo is not the optimal solution.  Therefore, I think if you try hard enough to research alternatives in detail, you will eventually be able to identify a better alternative. 

Since I started becoming disatisfied with my job, I started doing detailed research on alternatives, entering the info into a spreadsheet, try to make objective assessements of each scenario and then create a seriatum ranking of all options.  I review the list and my assessments on a routine basis.  When my current job / career is no longer at the top of the prioritized list, I will leave.

In a similar situation, I wanted to just quit, but my DW kept reminding me that that was not really a plan...so I got serious about an actual plan B, and in the meantime, viewed the current job as a useful but temporary vehicle to support my pursuit of plan B.  While it did not really provide any drastic increases in motivation for the current job, I hated it less, and was more dispassionate and pragmatic in seeing its value, despite my lack of interest.

Going from working with my head to working with my hands, reading Shop Class as Soul Craft has been enjoyable...

[sjc0816]

My husband was in a similar situation (also in high tech)....and it was really wearing on him.  The thing is, we are not even close to FIRE....so this was a bigger problem for us. Also, he is turning 40 this year and lost his father 6 months ago so I think this has played into his dissatisfaction/angst as well.

This may sound hokey....but we started working on a complete mindset change. Life is short. You cannot always live each day for some goal in the future. So, he/we started talking only about the positive things about his job (it is high paying, he is well respected, flexible, and on...and on).  Every day....nothing negative. We also started having discussions about what things he could be doing to delve into more interesting work - and this turned into conversations with his boss and him learning new technologies and doing some things that he is more excited about. I will tell you - the shift in thinking has completely changed him. Whether you FIRE in 4 years or not is irrelevant - do you really want to spend the next FOUR years of your life in such a negative place?  Sounds like a severe waste, to me.

Comments like this are just depressing!

"Tell me about it. I consider the soul sucking of next 10-15 years before early-ish retirement and I can't imagine being someone who has to do this until 65."

One thing that I notice on this forum, is that people really can focus on the negatives only about working a 9-5 (or whatever) job. And living each day and restricting themselves so much.....to get to the goal of FIRE. If you get hit by a bus tomorrow, FIRE doesn't matter anymore. You have to find a way to be happy TODAY.

[Bettis]

I have been going through a similar situation.  If you are consistently disatisfied at work, then there is a high likelhood that maintaining the status quo is not the optimal solution.  Therefore, I think if you try hard enough to research alternatives in detail, you will eventually be able to identify a better alternative. 

Since I started becoming disatisfied with my job, I started doing detailed research on alternatives, entering the info into a spreadsheet, try to make objective assessements of each scenario and then create a seriatum ranking of all options.  I review the list and my assessments on a routine basis.  When my current job / career is no longer at the top of the prioritized list, I will leave.

In a similar situation, I wanted to just quit, but my DW kept reminding me that that was not really a plan...so I got serious about an actual plan B, and in the meantime, viewed the current job as a useful but temporary vehicle to support my pursuit of plan B.  While it did not really provide any drastic increases in motivation for the current job, I hated it less, and was more dispassionate and pragmatic in seeing its value, despite my lack of interest.

Going from working with my head to working with my hands, reading Shop Class as Soul Craft has been enjoyable...

I'll echo this.  I'm definitely in the same situation.  Didn't like work in the first place, lost my boss and coworker to layoffs which as added a lot to my plate(I never got much training so I'm just trying to stay afloat), plus a 1.5% across the board yearly raise.  I want out but I don't have a plan B.

Stupid question but how do you come up with a plan B?  I honestly have no idea what I'd rather do.  I've never really had a passion to explore with a side gig.  Jumping to another job where I'd likely lose my 4 weeks of vacation time and possibly not like it is a pretty scary proposition so I want to come up with a solid plan.  Any ideas where to even go down the road of discovering something you like to do?  I realize (and was told a couple of years ago on this very board) that most people don't get to do what they like and I get it but I think just having a possibility to explore would help me feel less trapped.

[Fastfwd]

Good work is a doubled edged sword.

I'm in a very specialized part of IT and I really like what I do. I don't like what goes around it.
When you are young having a job that quickly escalates in income and overtime and oncall bonuses on top of it is great. It paid for my house.

Then you get to 40 and have to take care of kids and working overtime evenings and weekend and being oncall during the night gets old really fast. But there is no middle ground; this is the work in my specialty.

I either keep doing this and leave the rat race at 50 or find a job that requires no special skill or experience and do that until I am 60? the more money if offered in a job the worse the conditions your competition is willing to put up with.

[AZDude]

Look at your paycheck and note how much is getting saved every two weeks. Calculate how much you save every hour at work. Realize that you are lucky to have such a high paying, "easy" job(as in no manual labor, paid time off, benefits, etc...).

Also understand the alternatives. They do exist, but you would trade one thing for another.

[Mr. Green]

Much of it depends on where you fall in the financial security vs. life satisfaction spectrum. You don't give many details but perhaps there are ways to reduce your expenses so you can pursue work that pays less or makes FIRE closer. It all depends on priorities. When I was in my 20's I did the work to live thing because I think I didn't know any better and I was too afraid to throw myself into the unknown with that little money saved up. As I hit 30 I knew I wanted a million bucks to retire but in the last couple years I've found myself willing to have less in my stash to be free. Only you will be able to answer the question of what is most important to you. Now at 32, I see stories about people dying or becoming disabled young and it makes me question my life choices. If I died tomorrow I do not believe I would have lived my best life. So I'm changing that because that's all that matters to me, dying without regret. What matters to you?

In regard to the comments your family are making, there's a book you should read called "How I found Freedom In An Unfree World," by Harry Browne. You can find the PDF for free on the internet. It made me realize how misguided it was for me to do anything based on what others thought.

[Bettis]

Look at your paycheck and note how much is getting saved every two weeks. Calculate how much you save every hour at work. Realize that you are lucky to have such a high paying, "easy" job(as in no manual labor, paid time off, benefits, etc...).

Also understand the alternatives. They do exist, but you would trade one thing for another.

That's a great point.  For instance, (Sorry OP for hijacking) I get paid in the low 60s, do not have a "hard" job, just one I don't like.  Savings rate is around 30-35% including mortgage principal so not close to FIRE meaning work is not optional and a pay cut would be a bad idea.  I think I'm just being entitled so I feel even worse about being dissatisfied since I'm way more fortunate than most.

Stupid question but how do you come up with a plan B?  I honestly have no idea what I'd rather do.

My library had an audiobook called "How to Find Fulfilling Work" (by Roman Krznaric) that was an easy read (listen) on this topic.

My library has it too.  For some reason it's unavailable even though it's a downloadable file but a neighboring library has the paperback so I'll definitely check it out.

[Digital Dogma]

Plus, friends/family think I am nuts to even complain - 'you should be thankful to even have a job'.

This is a conclusion that I reach every time I run up against the usual soul crushing reality of working for someone else. And as much as saying to myself "I should be thankful I have a job" seems like it would be giving in to defeat, it is actually quite liberating to me. At that point I take a mile-high approach, count my blessings, and cease to give a fuck about the situation because its just a bump in the road in the grand scheme of things. Instead of giving in to defeat, I take inventory of the things I can control in my current situation, and I work on improving them. Exercise, diet, socializing with friends/co-workers, and continually updating my resume to take my mind off whatever is troubling me.

[big_slacker]

It could also be that it isn't so much the tech job but rather an office job that's bugging you so much? There are worlds of difference in lifestyle even with the same job title. For instance my last and my current gig:

Sr. network engineer-Consulting company-General kinda work:

Wake up whenever, answer mail from home, go mountain biking, come back and remotely attend meeting, drink beer, do design, book flight, hotel and car for next week's on site. Catch uber to airport, fly to somewhere else, get a rental car, go shopping. Wake up and meet customer, get to work, install technology, eat lunch with customer, more work, make it work with no politics involved, get signoff that everyone is happy, explore town, drink beer, fly back home. The 'boss' doesn't really direct my activities, just assigns the project and it's all me from there.

Sr. network engineer-Big Tech-General kinda work:

Wake up around 5am, ride bike in the work by 5:30-6am. Shower, yoga, meditate. Read e-mails, respond. Test upcoming change in lab, make procedure doc. Go for a walk. Meet to get approval to do some minor change. Lunch. Meeting to listen to people get approval for their minor changes (do work during this), another walk, send e-mails. Bike back home and do family stuff. 8pm make change after production hours, verify nothing broke, call it a day, drink beer.

I loved job A, it was challenging but had free travel, and I was basically being my own boss even as a W2. I'm back in an office now for family stability and like you I can't say it's that much fun for me. But I weave in as much stuff that I do like to keep me going. And it'll get me FI quicker as well, so hard to complain too much! Maybe think about a different job style within your current career before you decide to chuck it all and become a park ranger. :D

[herbgeek]

I know I have it relatively good.  I work from home full time.  I'm in my sweatpants often.  I can do errands and work around the house at lunch and in those 5-10 minutes between meetings where you can't really do anything productive.    I spend next to no money, as I'm not going out to eat at lunch and having to go buy things requires a substantial ride .  (I used to do errands on my way home from work).  I don't spend time ironing clothes, putting on makeup, packing a lunch or commuting.

That's the good side.  The bad side is I work in an organization with a lot of lazy managers who like status quo. There is no opportunity for me here to get interesting assignments, or get promoted.   The managers aren't interesting in doing things better, faster because change requires work.  I've tried for 3 years with only limited successes.  My immediate boss only works about 10 hours a week from what I can see from his online status, and appears to be well over his head in competency.

I am 55, and kind of tired of high tech.  Another job is not likely to be substantially better, although it would be easy to get a better boss.  Hubby is concerned with inflation and what will happen to the markets in the next couple of years, and thinks its ill advised for me to quit now (permanently as in retired).  (His retirement is rather accidental- he's in a niche that has been declining for years and he's not a go getter and we live in the boonies.  He was contracting for a number of years, but those opportunities have mostly dried up, so I call him retired.)  I would like to have a little more cushion for some of the what-ifs in life, though if we kept up a tight budget we'd have enough at 4% withdrawal to cover it.  It would just not be enough with inflation, or escalating health care costs.

So its, do I stay in this easy and boring job for a couple of more years, knowing I am capable of so much more, or do I find another job I'll have to commute to that at least keeps me interested and engaged.  I could be making more money, but that also comes with more costs- and a worse work-life balance.  The soul suck I'm in now tires me out, but a job that I commuted to would likely tire me out physically (with the extra hours).

I did try consulting a couple of times in my career (once as an entrepreneur, once working for someone else) and I don't really have that sort of personality.

In limbo.

[steveo]

One thing that I notice on this forum, is that people really can focus on the negatives only about working a 9-5 (or whatever) job. And living each day and restricting themselves so much.....to get to the goal of FIRE. If you get hit by a bus tomorrow, FIRE doesn't matter anymore. You have to find a way to be happy TODAY.

I sort of agree and I like your approach of enjoying your job as much as possible. That is my approach as well. I think thought that possibly the idea that you don't have to go to work somehow makes work worse. You realize more that you don't enjoy it and that your job is just a driver to get to retirement.

[GardenerB]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

As usual a great range of comments.  Easy to focus on the ones that sound just like my situation, but I am still trying to be positive - look at the savings rates, be thankful for the comforts (good vacation time, flexible hours, good pay, bonuses, etc.)  These are the main reasons to stay (good free coffee and a gym as well!)

Already doing lots of the physical stuff- I haven't owned a car for 12 years now (and never will).  Been cycling year round to/from work, even getting in summer lunch time rides or park walks.  Picking up more hobbies outside work and trying to work less hours (others working more hours are getting promoted- to do even more hours).

As for trying one more job in my field, I really think this is the last.  I spend almost all my time answering emails (up to 100 per day when it's busy), replying to other automated systems (you must login and reply to blah blah), and getting almost no concrete work done.  Many jobs are like this now.  So I feel I will stick it out, watch the savings, and really check out when it ends.  Someone younger and more keen definitely deserves my role and hopefully that will happen.  I find all my interests are non-high tech now- gardening, sports, biking, anything that does not involve techy stuff.  My sense of curiosity towards tech stuff has pretty much run its course- and that curiosity is needed to keep your 'passion' in your job.