Software developers: how is your work/life balance?

[MrsPennyPincher]

Long time lurker, but first time poster here!

I work for a company that has long been known for not-so-great salaries, but good work-life balance. Now I am noticing the life part has been going to dogs, with extremely aggressive schedules => things constantly breaking => working in perpetual crisis mode.  Things have got really bad and I am considering leaving but wonder if it is just my company (department) or a general shift in the industry

[RyanAtTanagra]

Long time lurker, but first time poster here!

I work for a company that has long been known for not-so-great salaries, but good work-life balance. Now I am noticing the life part has been going to dogs, with extremely aggressive schedules => things constantly breaking => working in perpetual crisis mode.  Things have got really bad and I am considering leaving but wonder if it is just my company (department) or a general shift in the industry

I don't know if it's an industry trend that we're not effected by, but our developers rarely work over 40 hours, and even more rarely do they have to work after hours.  We're a small company with only a few devs.

Sounds like a staffing problem, not an industry problem.

[dignam]

I was a dev at my company for about 8 years, but now I'm more on the systems/team lead realm with the occasional programming task.  I loved our work-life balance as a developer.  Maybe once or twice a year there's a crisis that requires after hours work, but it was pretty rare.  Our current devs are basically never required to put in weekends/after hours work, unless they want to (and some do work extra).

My current position though...I'm basically always on call.  That has its own pros and cons.

[neo von retorch]

Has leadership changed?

Do you have a "whale" of a client that has outsized influence over how your company operates?

Can you point to any other changes closer to you including changes in management that could account for the change?


Personally, I've never had a problem with work-life balance. Occasionally when I'm new, I'll get a slightly less glowing encouragement to "put in extra hours" to get up to speed on domain knowledge / context (because I'm pretty stubborn about volunteering hours!) When I was a contractor making a very nice hourly wage, I happily put in some 45 hour weeks! Ha! Now, I think I generally learn towards fast rather than meticulous, and I know that can affect your hours, but in general if you're a valuable, contributing employee, you should be able to maintain your work-life balance (or look for a place that you can.)

[fell-like-rain]

I work at a small startup, and it’s generally pretty chill hours-wise. I probably average 42, up from 38 at my last place. Part of not having crunches is that we’re in a growth mentality and are adding new people, but mostly it’s just culture. People have doctors appointments midday, work from home when they need to, etc. My take would be that this is a problem with your company, not a general one.

[AccidentialMustache]

My new startup gig is running 4x8 -- four normal length days -- at least for now. To be evaluated in the future if we stick with it or go the normal 5x8. Its ... interesting. I don't think I get a lot less done -- maybe more done -- but it makes for four very intense days.

[EscapedApe]

I had offers from some of the big companies, but I knew first hand that their work/life balance was shit, and that they had performance quotas disguised as "continuous learning milestones". A lot of times they used those (buried in the contract) as a legal work-around so that they could fire under-performing new-hires without running afoul of wrongful termination lawsuits.

In the end, I went with a company that pays less but which has excellent work/life balance. You really do have a choice in the matter, it just takes some searching.

[scottish]

I kinda think that many of the people who want to retire really early are stuck in one of those companies with no work/life balance, crappy ineffective management and so on.   Maybe that's all they've experienced.    Anybody remember livingafi/Dr Doom?   https://livingafi.com/     He went through alot of that.

[RyanAtTanagra]

I kinda think that many of the people who want to retire really early are stuck in one of those companies with no work/life balance, crappy ineffective management and so on.   Maybe that's all they've experienced.    Anybody remember livingafi/Dr Doom?   https://livingafi.com/     He went through alot of that.

Possibly, but I work in tech at a great small company.  Good work/life balance, I like my boss, get along with my coworkers, I'm even proud of what the company itself is doing, I'm completely autonomous and get to make decisions on the direction of IT and work with any new technologies I want that may be applicable.  I still want to retire early, because there are a hundred other things I can think of to do besides looking at a screen on a beautiful day.

Although I will add that I went to 4-day weeks (32 hours) a couple weeks ago and it's been great.  My next goal is 3-day weeks (24 hours).  I'm curious to see what my goals are after that, as I feel like that might be long-term sustainable and enjoyable, and full retirement may be less important at that point.  Especially if it's 24 hours remote and I can work while traveling.  We'll see, I have a lot of hobbies already that I'm neglecting.  4-day weekends still might not be enough :-)

[Linea_Norway]

I have mostly worked fulltime at software companies with a good life/work balance. We have always had "flexible hours", which means that if you work longer one day, you can save it up and take off some other time. We have also paid overtime when we have to work late. But I have personally used that quite seldom. Except for one year, when I also got very closed to being burned out.
What made my life difficult, was my long commute. And as I worked as a consultant, my commute was unpredictable, it would change through the year. I took a job with a 10% pay cut that was very close to home.
When I started here we had a pretty good life/work balance. But it has worsened the last year or to. I see on my coworkers that many of them look tired and stressed. Most of us still go home at decent times, but we know the work piles up. We don't have enough resources to do our work as good as we want to do it. The highest management has put a ban on hiring people. Our department though can hire occasionally, but it is a long process and needs to be discussed with the highest boss. We feel that we are always understaffed.
Since a year I have been working 80% with Fridays off and that has helped a lot for my mental well being. I will FIRE in January.

[2sk22]

Having been in the software game (mostly in research) for about 30 years, my observation is that the work often goes home with you. When I'm working on a difficult problem, I find it hard to stop thinking about it. Then again, most of the problems of the problems I work on are very hard. I have trained myself to stay away from my computer on weekends but its not easy.

I have to say that my enthusiasm for hard problems is not quite what it used to be when I got started - can't wait to quit next year :-)

[Linea_Norway]

Having been in the software game (mostly in research) for about 30 years, my observation is that the work often goes home with you. When I'm working on a difficult problem, I find it hard to stop thinking about it. Then again, most of the problems of the problems I work on are very hard. I have trained myself to stay away from my computer on weekends but its not easy.

I have to say that my enthusiasm for hard problems is not quite what it used to be when I got started - can't wait to quit next year :-)

I have also experienced that the work comes home with you in your mind. I don't work with development anymore, but I am responsible for the quality of the software. And where there are things that are out of my control, like hardware not working and people who can fix it have different priorities, or lots of other stuff, I worry about it at night. I find it difficult to not feel very involved in my work. One of the reasons for working shorter and soon quitting.

[thesis]

I've been very fortunate in this regard - the software jobs I've had have all been very good with work/life balance. My current job is a smaller company, and that may have something to do with it, and previous was a branch of a large corporation that was outside of the company's primary product line, so it didn't face the same pressures. Strong management knows when to push back and set realistic deadlines, IMO, so the places that are most toxic are usually places where people don't have firm boundaries, but I'm sure there's a lot behind the scenes I don't know about.

Dr. Doom's blog is good. I have generally liked the places I have worked for, but I also think that life is too short for endless and non-productive meetings. I suspect that if I were FI I would still enjoy doing some programming, just maybe not 40 hours of it, definitely not more :)

As far as corporate America is concerned, you'll find some jobs that are break-neck and others that are slackerville. There's a lot of variety, but I wonder if personality and how you present yourself matter. Almost all of Dr. Doom's jobs seemed to be hellish, while all of mine have been fairly laid back and reasonable. It'd be interesting to see if there are some unseen factors that cause people to (accidentally?) gravitate toward one or another, but I could be completely mistaken.

[2sk22]

As far as corporate America is concerned, you'll find some jobs that are break-neck and others that are slackerville. There's a lot of variety, but I wonder if personality and how you present yourself matter. Almost all of Dr. Doom's jobs seemed to be hellish, while all of mine have been fairly laid back and reasonable. It'd be interesting to see if there are some unseen factors that cause people to (accidentally?) gravitate toward one or another, but I could be completely mistaken.

I think this depends on the kind of customers and the industry you are working in. Also, in the old days when software was shipped (literally on CDs or DVDs) on a half-yearly schedule, things were a lot more laid back. Now, with continuous integration and daily service updates, everything has become much more intense.

I read through Dr Dooms full blog recently (what a wonderful writer he is!) and one thing popped out immediately. He worked in support and devops, both of which are very stressful areas to work in. In contrast design and coding can be a lot less stressful and more creative (although like all generalizations, I'm sure there are very nasty dev jobs as well)

[slipslop]

My company did an employee survey, with one of the major employee complaints being a lack of work/life balance... so the managers put together a presentation showing appropriate balance.

One of the scenarios had a "good employee" example where the employee took their manager's phone call while they were attending a wedding.

I feel like they might have missed the mark on what work/life balance actually means.

[Focus_on_the_fire]

My company did an employee survey, with one of the major employee complaints being a lack of work/life balance... so the managers put together a presentation showing appropriate balance.

One of the scenarios had a "good employee" example where the employee took their manager's phone call while they were attending a wedding.

I feel like they might have missed the mark on what work/life balance actually means.

<face palm> I feel for you. We have a "performance driven" culture right now, which means we have to run after the next bright and shiny object. It's exhausting.

[EscapedApe]

My company did an employee survey, with one of the major employee complaints being a lack of work/life balance... so the managers put together a presentation showing appropriate balance.

One of the scenarios had a "good employee" example where the employee took their manager's phone call while they were attending a wedding.

I feel like they might have missed the mark on what work/life balance actually means.

I would have laughed out loud and then quit the next day. And I'm not even FIRE yet.

[dcheesi]

My company has always been pretty good about this. 40hrs is still the norm¹, and true "crunch time" is rare. Probably one of the reasons I've stuck around so long.

[¹ Except for one or two coworkers who overwork themselves voluntarily, and then complain about all the demands being placed on them (half of which are self-imposed or volunteered for). ]

[LongtimeLurker]

I have worked in software development for about 15 years, and for several different companies of all sizes.

I have not noticed any larger trend demanding more hours, but I can tell you expectations vary considerably from company to company and even group to group. Be choosy when taking a job. Make sure you ask questions up front about the work environment. Stalk the company on LinkedIn, etc... and see how much turnover goes on.

The biggest thing is that no company is ever going to *give* you better work/life balance. You have to make it a priority. This might mean you miss out on that promotion. It might mean you take a job that pays less. It might mean you have some friction with your supervisor. Stick up for yourself and enjoy some time away.

I currently work from home full time, with a company that offers unlimited time off(and doesn't jump all over you for using your time off, unlike some other places...). I rarely work past 4PM, and am never on-call. It took awhile to get here, but I'm glad I made it. Its the second best thing to FIRE, and makes waiting for FIRE much less painful.

[MrsPennyPincher]

Thank you all for the insights. It is good to hear that my workplace insanity is more of an exception than a rule. It still has some good things going for it - for example, I am able to work from home 3 days a week - but the release schedule is insane. We release every 4 weeks, ready or not, and the management feels it is somehow better to release a buggy product than miss the schedule. Good thing we are not in the aviation industry ;)

[TomTX]

Long time lurker, but first time poster here!

I work for a company that has long been known for not-so-great salaries, but good work-life balance. Now I am noticing the life part has been going to dogs, with extremely aggressive schedules => things constantly breaking => working in perpetual crisis mode.  Things have got really bad and I am considering leaving but wonder if it is just my company (department) or a general shift in the industry

Get a new job, preferably with a 30%+ pay boost. If you've been there awhile, you are likely significantly underpaid.

[ender]

Pretty good work life balance for me.

[FireLane]

It depends on your company culture and your boss' expectations, but 40-hour weeks are absolutely possible for a software developer.

At my company, my previous team was notorious for long hours and perpetual crisis mode. I pushed back when I could, but it's hard to be the guy who leaves at 5 when everyone else is staying late. I got dinged on a performance review one year for leaving on time too often.

A few years ago, I switched to a different team that has much better work-life balance. I can work from home whenever I choose, and I hardly ever have to stay late. Now that I'm pretty much at my FI number, I've tested the waters by starting to leave the office a little early. I don't think anyone cares or even notices.

I've found it helps to set expectations as soon as possible. If you work late all the time, people will come to expect it.

[TempusFugit]

My company has always been pretty good about this. 40hrs is still the norm¹, and true "crunch time" is rare. Probably one of the reasons I've stuck around so long.

[¹ Except for one or two coworkers who overwork themselves voluntarily, and then complain about all the demands being placed on them (half of which are self-imposed or volunteered for). ]

Isn't that annoying?  I have a coworker with similar habits.  It's easy to think that it only affects them, but really it also sets unrealistic expectations with management sometimes when they expect you to join "just a couple of conference calls" from your vacation because so-and-so does it all the time. 

Well, so-and-so cares a lot more than I do about what you think, I guess. 

And it's not as amusing as it once was to listen to the whining about staying up all night coding something that no one asked you to code.  If you want to dance for them, then don't complain to me about it. 

[dcheesi]

My company has always been pretty good about this. 40hrs is still the norm¹, and true "crunch time" is rare. Probably one of the reasons I've stuck around so long.

[¹ Except for one or two coworkers who overwork themselves voluntarily, and then complain about all the demands being placed on them (half of which are self-imposed or volunteered for). ]

Isn't that annoying?  I have a coworker with similar habits.  It's easy to think that it only affects them, but really it also sets unrealistic expectations with management sometimes when they expect you to join "just a couple of conference calls" from your vacation because so-and-so does it all the time. 

Well, so-and-so cares a lot more than I do about what you think, I guess. 

And it's not as amusing as it once was to listen to the whining about staying up all night coding something that no one asked you to code.  If you want to dance for them, then don't complain to me about it.

And the funny thing is that the current example is a guy who generally says what he thinks and doesn't take any crap. I'm not sure if the crazy hours are his idea of professionalism, or what? I do think that part of it stems from him having unusual hours to begin with, since his wife has frequent medical appointments etc. But he's clearly working more than enough hours to make up for that.

The previous example was a guy with a hero complex, always stepping in to save the day whether anyone asked him to or not. Eventually, of course, management got used to him doing all of these extra tasks, and they became part of his work expectations.