Author Topic: Wind Insurance is Outrageous  (Read 6466 times)

Luke Warm

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Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« on: June 18, 2022, 03:57:25 PM »
We live on the gulf coast of Florida and we have for over 20 years. We live in an old neighborhood in a 120 year old house. Every year our wind insurance goes up a bit but it has been manageable. This year it has become outrageous. $12k per year. Our house payment will almost double in August. I've heard different reasons as to why it has gone up so much but it doesn't really matter. The governor is aware of the problem and is looking to fix it but that's not a sure thing and it won't happen over night. Luckily we are semi-mustachians and have plenty of cash reserves but that won't be sustainable for long nor do I want to pay that much to live here anyway. The way I see it is we have three options; continue to pay until the government fixes the problem, sell out, or pay off the house and cancel the wind insurance. I would be happy to sell but who would buy a house that the insurance is so expensive? And my girlfriend that I own the house with isn't really interested in moving. I don't want to continue to pay but that may be the best option. Canceling the wind policy seems stupid but it would be affordable. We could try to get insurance from someone else but it's really difficult to get anyone to write a policy on such an old house. We owe about $90k on the house. Hurricane season started June 1st and ends in November so not a good time to cancel the policy. Suggestions? Other options I'm missing?

maizefolk

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2022, 05:53:34 PM »
Are there any wind mitigation improvements you can make to your old house?

I'm not in hurricane country but we have plenty of hail. A roof with 30 year shingled probably lasts an average of 10 years before being destroyed by hail so my local insurance company would give me a BIG break if I put a metal roof on my house.

Don't know if there are any similar upgrades that can trigger a decrease in premiums for you but if so it might be a double win: decrease your insurance costs now and also increase how much you'd be able to sell your house for in the future since people wouldn't be scared off by the hire insurance cost.

Sibley

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2022, 06:29:47 PM »
The "problem" is that its incredibly risky to live in Florida, and insurance companies have been unable to truly price insurance accordingly for years, while their losses have been mounting. It's gotten bad enough (ie, insurance companies pull out, go under, etc) that the DOI is allowing much larger premium increases to try to help. Sure, the government can try to help, but they can't force insurance companies to write policies, and if the company doesn't think it can make a profit then they're not going to write policies. Government provided insurance, typically the insurance of last resort, is the last resort for a reason.

Some basic options that I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Drop the insurance
2. Increase your deductible/decrease your coverage
3. Do things that will mitigate the risk for your property and give the proof to your insurance company.
4. Move.

https://www.disasterkleen.com/wind-damage-prevention-checklist/

Morning Glory

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2022, 06:55:39 PM »
Can you get an estimate of how much it would actually cost to replace your roof? Then you'll be able to do the math on whether the insurance is worth it.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2022, 10:27:14 PM »
I've heard different reasons as to why it has gone up so much but it doesn't really matter.

There's one reason, and that reason is climate change.

It might have gone up faster earlier if insurance had been able to price risk appropriately previously, but you can be sure it'd be no better than today's numbers, just also worse in the past.

The governor is aware of the problem and is looking to fix it but that's not a sure thing and it won't happen over night.

Hahahahahaha. Bullshit. DeSantis couldn't give a damn about fixing it, he's too busy owning the libs. And by fix it I mean accept climate change is real and that there needs to be meaningful change to at least slow the rate it is getting worse. Which he will never in a million years do.

What he will do is some sort of "help team-red get re-elected, so they can continue to call global warming a hoax" type solution. If it helps anyone individually (other than the rich, who conveniently lean red and donate heavily), that will be by accident not by design.

Sorry if I sound salty, but I'm pretty much done coddling folks over climate issues.

As for what you can do? November is coming. Start with voting a straight blue ticket.

In terms of your house specifically? Divide the value by 12k. At some level, that tells you how many years the insurance company thinks it'll take for a calamity (hurricane, fire, etc) to wipe your house off the map. It is less than that for how often you'll have a problem, because of "lesser" issues, like "it is still standing but flooded some" or "had $40,000 in smoke damage from a kitchen fire."

My home's number is over 200 years. I'd bet yours is under 20. Can you afford to lose your home and buy a new one every X years? If so, sure, drop your insurance. If not, you might want to re-think that plan.

You can probably get some discount for going for a more wind resistant roof, but in hurricane country just changing on the stuff on top of the roof deck isn't likely to get you far. A standing seam metal roof might stay firmly attached to the roof deck, but if a hurricane can just rip the roof deck (or the rafters themselves) off that doesn't matter a whole lot. You'd probably need the full deal -- hurricane tie-downs, etc -- for any significant discount. That's easy when building, moderate when re-roofing, and difficult otherwise.

That also may not actually help. You'd have to understand the how and why of insurance pricing that risk into your policy. Is it actually hurricane force winds? Or are they worried about storm surge and water doing all the damage? Are you inland enough that storm surge doesn't hit you, but insurance companies are worried a hurricane could stall out over you and dump rain like Harvey did? What about wildfires?

Viking Thor

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2022, 10:31:14 PM »
How can the government fix the problem?

It sounds like the problem is a high risk of home being destroyed or highly damaged via hurricane, which results in high insurance costs.

So the insurance is correctly priced at a high rate. They can't force the insurance company to offer insurance that is likely to lose money.

I suppose the government could give a handout and offer free or subsidized insurance. But that makes no sense from a societal perspective, to encourage\subsidize housing in places at higher risk of destruction and provide no extra subsidy to places without that risk.

maizefolk

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2022, 10:45:38 PM »
I've heard different reasons as to why it has gone up so much but it doesn't really matter.

There's one reason, and that reason is climate change.

Climate change is causing plenty of issues, but it sounds like there are substantial other issues at play in Florida right now. Insurance fraud is an easy thing for politicians to blame, but given that insurance companies in Florida are offering people significant discounts to nonassignable home insurance policies, my guess is that the people talking about substantial fraud loses at the moment aren't making it up out of whole cloth.

Quote
That also may not actually help. You'd have to understand the how and why of insurance pricing that risk into your policy. Is it actually hurricane force winds? Or are they worried about storm surge and water doing all the damage? Are you inland enough that storm surge doesn't hit you, but insurance companies are worried a hurricane could stall out over you and dump rain like Harvey did? What about wildfires?

I believe either storm surge or fresh water flooding resulting from a stalled hurricane would be covered by flood insurance not wind insurance. Flood insurance is an embarrassingly federally subsidized program and premiums have less and less relationship to the actual risk of damage or total loss. Wind insurance is offered by either private private companies or is state subsidized through Florida's Citizen's Property Insurance program.

If we fixed flood insurance to pay for people to relocate when their houses were destroyed rather than paying to rebuild in the same places that climate change is making increasingly nonviable for long term human habitation we'd make life better for everyone (include the people whose houses get destroyed).

HPstache

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2022, 11:02:15 PM »
Don't pay it... that's ridiculous.  Self insure.

NoVa

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2022, 07:09:11 AM »
It isn't just actual loss. There is a ton of insurance fraud being perpetrated by roofers.

Luke Warm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2022, 11:26:56 AM »
We do have a metal roof that has been on the house for a while. We had cheap metal on it for years and it eventually rusted out. During hurricane Ivan in 2004 there was some minor damage to that roof that I managed to fix without filing a claim. The new roof is a whole lot more stout but like someone said, the roof may not blow off but the whole house might blow away. After hurricane Ivan there was a program to add strapping to the structure of older houses and fit the windows and doors with shutters. Why we didn't do that I don't know. Had we known that our insurance would be going up to $1k a month we probably would've done it. The program has ended but we could still get it done on our own but finding someone to do it would be a challenge. There is so much construction going on there's no one available to do that kind of work. We're in no danger of flooding. We're 15 miles from the beach so no tidal surge. We're about 1 mile from water but we're at about 75' of elevation. We do have a lot of mature trees in the yard which helps with the wind but they could also get knocked over onto the house. We're not cutting the trees down.

MrGreen

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2022, 11:35:26 AM »
We live in a hurricane area as well and it's a complicated calculus deciding whether to pay wind insurance or not. For one, your home's age means that it has none of the features of the current building codes unless someone has retrofitted it. Our house was built within the past year and it has lag bolts tying the walls to the cement slab and steel straps that tie the roof trusses to the walls. Additional steel strapping is nailed into the studs around any opening (windows, doors, etc). It's almost impossible for our house to be blown apart so the odds of a total loss on our house are quite minimal. If something like this were to happen it means the entire town has been wiped out and is likely uninhabitable for at least a couple years.

However most of the damage comes from water penetration. The wind blows some shingles off and lots of water comes in, ruining everything it soaks. Insulation, drywall, flooring, etc. You could get a metal roof that is over engineered to combat this if you're going to self insure, though I have seen sections of metal roof peel off in the wind. Those were waterfront homes though so there's no windbreak. You could also choose to replace your shingles early. The older they are the more sun damage they take and the likelihood of them coming off goes up. Our neighborhood has 20-30 homes that were built before the 2008 housing crash. That builder went bankrupt and another resumed building in 2012. When Florence came through in 2018, few of the newer homes lost shingles, whereas many of the older homes had roof damage and water penetration.

You also have to take your deductible into consideration. Ours is 2% of our house value. So the first $5,000 is on us. That's basically a new roof under normal circumstances. That doesn't apply when a quarter of the homes in the area have hurricane damage and roofers have a multi-month backlog.

You can't really do much about this but the biggest thing you can do to protect yourself if self insuring is to ensure your house is inexpensive. High end finishes, crown molding, etc. is expensive to replace. Being forced to do it right after a hurricane is even more costly. My personal attitude for living in a hurricane area is to own a place that's cheap enough to repair that after a big one comes through you can fix the roof, tear out the interior damage, and then go live somewhere else until the worst of the deveststion is repaired and supply chain demand returns to normal. If I wasn't prepared to do this, self insuring is likely not a smart option.

In Florida this is particularly poignant. Recent statistics bear out that somewhere in Florida is basically guaranteed to get hit every year. Naturally that makes insurance a challenging situation. What you're seeing is some of these companies push their rates closer to the true cost of insuring such risky areas. In the past, major events could potentially bankrupt an insurer and the Feds step in with money to help cover costs. That means the entire country is footing those people's home repairs. As climate change intensifies this is probably going to worsen.

former player

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2022, 12:56:53 PM »
Sell your half to your girlfriend and go and live somewhere that will survive climate change?

Ron Scott

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2022, 05:39:19 AM »
We have a winter place on the ocean in south FL. The running joke about avoiding risk and high insurance costs is:
1. Don’t own real estate
2. Don’t drive
3. Don’t go to a doctor

Cranky

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2022, 08:35:46 AM »
The state subsidized hurricane insurance for years, and they have gradually let it hit market rates. And this is why we didn't keep our family house on the Gulf Coast.

I'm pretty sure that if you have a mortgage, you're going to have to pay up.
If your house is paid off, you can decide whether to risk it or not.

big_owl

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2022, 09:55:11 AM »
Idk but our home is 18yo and we were getting close to needing a new roof.  Turns out we had a severe tstorm with hail the size of baseball two weeks ago.  FF to now and insurance is going to pay for an entire new roof due to the damage from the hail.  Sometimes the gods shine down on you

merula

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2022, 10:40:09 AM »
Property/Casualty insurance person here. It's basically exactly what @AccidentialMustache and @Cranky  said; the state DOI wouldn't allow rate increases that kept up with the increase in risk for at least the past 20 years (possibly longer, but that predates my time in the industry). As a result, a bunch of insurance carriers went bankrupt or stopped selling policies in the state, so now the spread of risk is a bigger problem. The rate hikes now are trying to treat lung cancer by stopping smoking.

Things you can do:
-Self-insure, if your mortgage terms allow it
-Talk to an independent agent about other options (higher deductibles would be your best option)
-Move

In terms of your house specifically? Divide the value by 12k. At some level, that tells you how many years the insurance company thinks it'll take for a calamity (hurricane, fire, etc) to wipe your house off the map. It is less than that for how often you'll have a problem, because of "lesser" issues, like "it is still standing but flooded some" or "had $40,000 in smoke damage from a kitchen fire."

My home's number is over 200 years. I'd bet yours is under 20. Can you afford to lose your home and buy a new one every X years? If so, sure, drop your insurance. If not, you might want to re-think that plan.

Tiny quibble, but the $12k is just flood insurance but also includes insurance industry expenses, so the number is probably more like [Home Value]/([Total insurance cost - flood and regular homeowners]*0.65).

wenchsenior

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2022, 11:30:17 AM »
With current climate projections, the entire bottom third of Florida is likely to be underwater by 2100, so you could mentally reframe it so that you feel fortunate to be still on dry land and able to live there at all.

Just kidding... sort of.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 11:42:00 AM by wenchsenior »

Luke Warm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2022, 11:57:50 AM »
I feel fortunate to live where I do in the city. We live in an old part of town with gridded streets so bike commuting is excellent. There is a grocery store within walking distance. Probably 9 breweries most within a reasonable bike ride. Seriously stunning beaches and a huge amount of history. The cycling is pretty good. The cost of living was fairly low but now it's unbelievable what people will pay to live in our neighborhood. There's no telling what our house is worth.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2022, 08:10:56 PM »
Tiny quibble, but the $12k is just flood insurance but also includes insurance industry expenses, so the number is probably more like [Home Value]/([Total insurance cost - flood and regular homeowners]*0.65).

Yeah I hadn't realized y'all have separate policies down there. Sure, I can get riders, but it is all just one insurance policy for fire, wind, hail, car through the wall, etc. Midwest. It's boring and flat... but sometimes "boring (disasters)" is good.

startingsmall

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2022, 03:06:52 PM »
Portland of the Gulf Coast is... St. Pete?

I'm also on the Gulf Coast, although south of you (I think) and about 45 minutes inland. Our homeowner's insurance isn't too bad ($2kish per year), but our house was built in 2007 and has all the hurricane upgrades (roof straps, reinforced garage door, hurricane glass on the front, accordion shutters along the back and sides, and the hurricane fabric/curtain thing for the lanai). I AM afraid we'll have to replace our roof to renew this November, in honor of our roof's 15th birthday.

Luke Warm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2022, 05:59:32 AM »
Portland of the Gulf Coast is... St. Pete?

I'm also on the Gulf Coast, although south of you (I think) and about 45 minutes inland. Our homeowner's insurance isn't too bad ($2kish per year), but our house was built in 2007 and has all the hurricane upgrades (roof straps, reinforced garage door, hurricane glass on the front, accordion shutters along the back and sides, and the hurricane fabric/curtain thing for the lanai). I AM afraid we'll have to replace our roof to renew this November, in honor of our roof's 15th birthday.
We're in Pensacola. The Portland of the Gulf Coast is a bit of a joke.

Arbitrage

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2022, 01:27:34 PM »
Don't pay it... that's ridiculous.  Self insure.

I think(?) the implication is that carrying wind insurance is required as part of the terms of their mortgage.  Have to pay off the mortgage first before they can self insure.  Don't know if there are other lenders who wouldn't require it.  When I lived in CA, earthquake insurance was the heavy hitter, but wasn't required for lenders.  We never bought any.

Luke Warm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2022, 02:17:47 PM »
Don't pay it... that's ridiculous.  Self insure.

I think(?) the implication is that carrying wind insurance is required as part of the terms of their mortgage.  Have to pay off the mortgage first before they can self insure.  Don't know if there are other lenders who wouldn't require it.  When I lived in CA, earthquake insurance was the heavy hitter, but wasn't required for lenders.  We never bought any.

It's required with a mortgage.

lutorm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2022, 02:51:15 PM »
On the one hand, I feel some sympathy for people who bought a house without realizing their full exposure. But on the other hand, it's simply not feasible to keep subsidizing insurance coverage. The flood insurance program seems like the most egregious example, but if there are instances of subsidizing hurricane or other coverage, too, that'll similarly set up perverse incentives for people to live in places without bearing the full risk. There is no fundamental human right to live in risky places and have other people subsidize that risk.

Sibley

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2022, 03:10:21 PM »
On the one hand, I feel some sympathy for people who bought a house without realizing their full exposure. But on the other hand, it's simply not feasible to keep subsidizing insurance coverage. The flood insurance program seems like the most egregious example, but if there are instances of subsidizing hurricane or other coverage, too, that'll similarly set up perverse incentives for people to live in places without bearing the full risk. There is no fundamental human right to live in risky places and have other people subsidize that risk.

Yep. Good chunks of Florida should be all but uninhabited based on the risk. Not just FL either - New Orleans, parts of Texas, and let's not get started about building cities in waterless deserts.

lutorm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2022, 03:19:36 PM »
On the one hand, I feel some sympathy for people who bought a house without realizing their full exposure. But on the other hand, it's simply not feasible to keep subsidizing insurance coverage. The flood insurance program seems like the most egregious example, but if there are instances of subsidizing hurricane or other coverage, too, that'll similarly set up perverse incentives for people to live in places without bearing the full risk. There is no fundamental human right to live in risky places and have other people subsidize that risk.

Yep. Good chunks of Florida should be all but uninhabited based on the risk. Not just FL either - New Orleans, parts of Texas, and let's not get started about building cities in waterless deserts.
Not to mention fires, or earthquakes. It'll be really interesting to see what happens when the Big One hits CA and millions of people who don't have earthquake insurance are left without homes. I bet the howling to make these people whole will be stratospheric.


maizefolk

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2022, 06:44:40 PM »
Flood insurance is a relatively special case of a huge subsidy and misincentive.

I'm less worried about other insurance as a lot of it is being priced by the market or, when regulation prevents insurance companies from charging enough to have it make economic sense, it is simply not being offered in the first place. It's also offering people incentives to start ruggedizing and hardening their homes which is genuinely a societal good in the world we live in today and will be an even bigger societal good in the world I expect to live in as I get older.

If you want to really worry about a place where we could be doing a better job of sending the right economic signals, look at the 30 year mortgage.

Insurance companies can decide from one year to the next that a house doesn't make sense to insure and drop coverage. But right now a bank is still quite happy to write people money on 30 year terms secured by properties that may be uninsurable in 10 and under water in 20.

lutorm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2022, 08:01:25 PM »
Insurance companies can decide from one year to the next that a house doesn't make sense to insure and drop coverage. But right now a bank is still quite happy to write people money on 30 year terms secured by properties that may be uninsurable in 10 and under water in 20.
That's an interesting observation. What happens if your mortgage requires insurance but no one's willing to insure it?

Sibley

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2022, 08:24:50 PM »
Insurance companies can decide from one year to the next that a house doesn't make sense to insure and drop coverage. But right now a bank is still quite happy to write people money on 30 year terms secured by properties that may be uninsurable in 10 and under water in 20.
That's an interesting observation. What happens if your mortgage requires insurance but no one's willing to insure it?

Insurer of last resort, often they're government run. In Florida, it's Citizens Property Insurance, which I believe is owned by the state.

maizefolk

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2022, 08:46:21 PM »
Insurance companies can decide from one year to the next that a house doesn't make sense to insure and drop coverage. But right now a bank is still quite happy to write people money on 30 year terms secured by properties that may be uninsurable in 10 and under water in 20.
That's an interesting observation. What happens if your mortgage requires insurance but no one's willing to insure it?

In many cases failing to maintain insurance is a violation of the mortgage requirements so you'd be technically in default.

Not sure whether the bank would want to repossess an uninsurable property. The fact that the property was not insurable anymore might drive down the potential resale value of the foreclosure to less than what is owed on the mortgage. But they could.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2022, 09:24:58 PM »

The real estate in our fl county is overvalued around 55%, according to a few articles I have read.  Between the increased market value, increased material/labor costs of the past few years and the aforementioned various forms of risk for insurance companies, insurance premiums are up a lot. Our roof is in good shape, but it's around 17 yrs old.  I will probably have to replace it if I plan to stay insured. 


Tempname23

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2022, 06:37:14 AM »
I have a friend that went without home insurance for 30 years, Then a bad hurricane hit, he had some damage, but says he was still better off not paying for insurance. I had about $90k of damage to my house and paying for insurance all those years did pay off.
 My other concern is having Liability insurance. Not sure if you can buy that on your home separately.

Cranky

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2022, 07:06:40 AM »
Insurance companies can decide from one year to the next that a house doesn't make sense to insure and drop coverage. But right now a bank is still quite happy to write people money on 30 year terms secured by properties that may be uninsurable in 10 and under water in 20.
That's an interesting observation. What happens if your mortgage requires insurance but no one's willing to insure it?

I don't know about now (because we sadly sold our Florida house) but previously what happened was that you went into a state insurance pool. The problem now is that that pool is charging market rates, and those are super high because it's not really "if" it's "when".

merula

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2022, 07:19:22 AM »
My other concern is having Liability insurance. Not sure if you can buy that on your home separately.

You can, it's called a Comprehensive Personal Liability policy. It's not offered by as many carriers, but is available by talking to an independent insurance agent (that is, one that represents multiple insurance companies, not just one).  And I agree, you can have a specific amount of savings to rebuild your house if needed in order to self-insure property, but liability is a different story. These kinds of personal liability policies have limits (typically $300k), but also include unlimited defense expenses until the limit is exhausted.

Luke Warm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2025, 12:24:45 PM »
Dredging up this old topic. We're still paying for wind insurance. It's still pretty steep, about $10k per year. We have Citizens which is the state provided insurance. Now they are requiring that we have flood insurance which is only $570 per year. I'm not sure how they can require it as we are at the top of the hill and our house if off grade. We are in FEMA flood zone X which is like a less than 2% chance of flooding. Seems like a way for Citizens to make money. I'd rather pay for asteroid insurance.

merula

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2025, 08:15:40 AM »
They're requiring it because of the likelihood of wind damage and flood damage occurring in the same event, and they can require it because Citizens is supposed to be the insurance of last resort. If you could get coverage anywhere else, you're supposed to; if you're stuck with them you're also stuck playing by their rules.

In a standard "all-perils" property insurance policy, wind is included by default, while flood and earthquake are extra add-ons. (But, merula, how is that "all-perils" then? It's not, hence the quotes, but it's in contrast to a "named-perils" policy where the only things that are covered are those that are specifically stated in the policy, usually fire, lightning, explosion and aircraft damage.)

So, if wind is always covered but flood is only sometimes covered, what does that mean for hurricanes where the wind causes some damage and the flooding causes other damages in the same event? If you were to ask someone who writes coverage forms (the closest thing insurance has to an idealist), they'd tell you that the policy covering wind would only pay for the damage from the wind (roof, broken window, missing patio furniture), and then the flood policy would pay for the flooding (carpet, drywall, mold remediation, indoor contents).

But if you ask a claims attorney, they'll tell you that what really happens is that policyholders get really mad at the insurance companies when faced with most of their claim being denied, and they get a lawyer and the lawyer argues that the water damage wasn't caused by the whole street flooding and water entering from the bottom up, but instead by "wind-driven rain" where the roof damage let in the water from the top down and therefore the flood damage is not flood damage, it's wind damage and covered by the policy.

The entire problem could be prevented if everyone bought flood insurance, but it's very difficult to convince people that they should have it, and because the premium increases with the level of risk, the people who most need it are also those for whom it's the most expensive.

I buy flood insurance. I live in Minnesota, my flood zone is X, the closest water is the Mississippi 3 miles away. My elevation is 950ft above sea level, which is 250ft above the river at this point. I don't remember how much it costs, exactly, something like $50. I buy it because I don't want to ever get into an insurance fight like the one above.

The highest point in Florida is only 350ft above sea level. FEMA flood maps are really not worth the paper they're printed on, especially in hurricane-prone areas, because all of the data assumes pre-climate-change storm frequency and severity. And to be clear, "hurricane-prone areas" means the entirety of FL, GA, MS, AL, LA, SC, and NC, and about half of TX and VA. (The climate models don't participate in the intra-FL ranking of who's more at-risk.)

Bottom line, though, while I think you should buy flood insurance, it really doesn't matter. Citizens is requiring it, so I'm not sure what your other option would be. Go without any insurance? Move?

Luke Warm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2025, 02:09:22 PM »
They're requiring it because of the likelihood of wind damage and flood damage occurring in the same event, and they can require it because Citizens is supposed to be the insurance of last resort. If you could get coverage anywhere else, you're supposed to; if you're stuck with them you're also stuck playing by their rules.

In a standard "all-perils" property insurance policy, wind is included by default, while flood and earthquake are extra add-ons. (But, merula, how is that "all-perils" then? It's not, hence the quotes, but it's in contrast to a "named-perils" policy where the only things that are covered are those that are specifically stated in the policy, usually fire, lightning, explosion and aircraft damage.)

So, if wind is always covered but flood is only sometimes covered, what does that mean for hurricanes where the wind causes some damage and the flooding causes other damages in the same event? If you were to ask someone who writes coverage forms (the closest thing insurance has to an idealist), they'd tell you that the policy covering wind would only pay for the damage from the wind (roof, broken window, missing patio furniture), and then the flood policy would pay for the flooding (carpet, drywall, mold remediation, indoor contents).

But if you ask a claims attorney, they'll tell you that what really happens is that policyholders get really mad at the insurance companies when faced with most of their claim being denied, and they get a lawyer and the lawyer argues that the water damage wasn't caused by the whole street flooding and water entering from the bottom up, but instead by "wind-driven rain" where the roof damage let in the water from the top down and therefore the flood damage is not flood damage, it's wind damage and covered by the policy.

The entire problem could be prevented if everyone bought flood insurance, but it's very difficult to convince people that they should have it, and because the premium increases with the level of risk, the people who most need it are also those for whom it's the most expensive.

I buy flood insurance. I live in Minnesota, my flood zone is X, the closest water is the Mississippi 3 miles away. My elevation is 950ft above sea level, which is 250ft above the river at this point. I don't remember how much it costs, exactly, something like $50. I buy it because I don't want to ever get into an insurance fight like the one above.

The highest point in Florida is only 350ft above sea level. FEMA flood maps are really not worth the paper they're printed on, especially in hurricane-prone areas, because all of the data assumes pre-climate-change storm frequency and severity. And to be clear, "hurricane-prone areas" means the entirety of FL, GA, MS, AL, LA, SC, and NC, and about half of TX and VA. (The climate models don't participate in the intra-FL ranking of who's more at-risk.)

Bottom line, though, while I think you should buy flood insurance, it really doesn't matter. Citizens is requiring it, so I'm not sure what your other option would be. Go without any insurance? Move?

We're probably going to pay off the house and cancel our wind insurance. It's not a great plan as we have a lot of equity in the house but that's were we are. My GF seems to think that Citizens wouldn't pay us anyway if we filed a claim.

Is it possible to get wind insurance that covers just a portion of the total value of the house? Say our house is valued at $500k but we only want to insure $200k in hopes that the wind damage is less than $200k? Anything more than that and we would pay out of pocket?

Must_ache

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2025, 05:17:31 PM »
P&C Actuary here.  Just want to give you some background by showing the major insurance headline of 2009:

Quote
TALLAHASSEE - Little more than two weeks after state regulators turned down its request for a 47.1 percent rate hike, State Farm announced Tuesday it would stop offering property insurance in Florida.

And although policy holders will have up to two years to find another insurer, Gov. Charlie Crist suggested the state shouldn't miss State Farm much.

"They probably charge about the highest rates in the state," Crist said as he blasted the company at a news conference Tuesday afternoon. "I think Floridians will be much better off without them."

The departure affects about 1.2 million policyholders in Florida.

I'm waiting for something similiar to unfold in California.

Must_ache

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2025, 05:19:04 PM »
I'd rather pay for asteroid insurance.

Only $1,000/yr would you like the address where to send payment?

merula

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2025, 07:22:54 AM »
Oooh! @Must_ache , I'm so going to batsignal you the next time I need an actuary. Or, right now; feel free to chime in on ITV.

We're probably going to pay off the house and cancel our wind insurance. It's not a great plan as we have a lot of equity in the house but that's were we are. My GF seems to think that Citizens wouldn't pay us anyway if we filed a claim.

Citizens will pay you for a covered claim; the news stories are more about uncovered claims (like the flood situation), lapsed coverage, etc., and are preying on the general public's ignorance of how insurance works to generate views.

Citizens isn't really an insurance company, it's a social safety net. Even if there was some event that totally wiped out Citizen's capital, I don't think it's politically palatable to anyone to not make policyholders whole in a swing state, so it would probably be a federal backstop. (I'm extremely pro social-safety-nets, I just find it incredibly ironic in FL's case.)

Is it possible to get wind insurance that covers just a portion of the total value of the house? Say our house is valued at $500k but we only want to insure $200k in hopes that the wind damage is less than $200k? Anything more than that and we would pay out of pocket?

You could TRY to undervalue your house, and Citizens is probably the place where you'd have the most luck with that, but if they already have your previously-reported values, it's unlikely to succeed.

Insurance to value (ITV) is a key concept in insurance. The (simplified) way that property rating works is that there's a rate multiplied by the value of the property so that it's a linear relationship; a $200k house costs twice as much as a $100k house.

But the risk of loss is non-linear, small losses are much more common than large ones, and total losses are rare overall. If you can convince your insurance company that your $200k house is actually a $100k house, you're paying half as much but you'll be paid in full for every loss under $100k, which is 95%+ of all possible losses.

The problem is, insurance carriers are on to that trick, and have ITV models to show them when property is undervalued, and they'll require appropriate ITV in order to insure the risk. I would expect Citizens to have less robust models than other carriers, but they probably still have a basic rule that doesn't let you drop the value.

What you might be able to find is a high-deductible option. Because of that non-linear risk of loss, insurance companies love to let you take the first $10k, $25k, $50k and they'll pay after that. If you're willing to do something like that, you might even find a standard market willing to take you on.

merula

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2025, 07:41:27 AM »
P&C Actuary here.  Just want to give you some background by showing the major insurance headline of 2009:
I'm waiting for something similiar to unfold in California.

It already kinda has (and that was last year):
https://ktla.com/news/california/state-farm-to-non-renew-72000-policies/

California regulations make it much harder to leave entirely, and the regulatory process is far, far worse than other states, so this is going to continue to decline while the *elected* commissioner continues to put up BS press releases like this one: https://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/0100-press-releases/2025/release005-2025.cfm

For the non-industry people, this is like if someone was saying "we're going to make sure that people can continue to have cheap omelets by forcing egg companies to sell eggs at prices we forced them to set in 2015, and legally barring them from both stopping selling eggs or changing the price when it costs way more to sell the eggs than they could ever recoup."

And then people eat way more eggs, because they're cheap, which perpetuates the losses. And somehow the egg companies are still the bad guys.

I'm all for socialism; put everyone on Citizens and CalFAIR and you'd solve a lot of the issues with both of those. But you can't have your capitalism and then not let the capitalists try to make money.

Laura33

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2025, 10:39:51 AM »
We're probably going to pay off the house and cancel our wind insurance. It's not a great plan as we have a lot of equity in the house but that's were we are.

So what is your financial plan if the house is seriously damaged in the next hurricane?  Just cross your fingers and hope that won't happen to you?

Insurance is there to cover the cost of things that, if they happen, could blow up your financial plans.  For the vast majority of people, the cost of losing their home falls into that category.  By far the stupidest thing you could do would be to build your plans on the assumption that bad stuff will never happen -- particularly if you plan to live in an old, non-hurricane-proofed house in Florida for a long time.  The high cost of insurance tells you that bad stuff is more likely, not less.

If you can afford to bulldoze the house, sell the lot, and buy somewhere else without messing up any other part of your FIRE plans, then by all means, skip the insurance.  If you can't, canceling all your insurance because you don't want to pay an extra $570 for flood insurance is cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Save as much as you can by taking the highest deductible you can afford to pay out of pocket.  But don't put yourself in a position where one bad storm could set your FIRE plans back a decade or more.

Luke Warm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2025, 11:41:15 AM »
According to a news article in the local paper last February:

Florida homeowners shouldn't rely on Citizens Property Insurance if a severe storm strikes the Sunshine State in the upcoming hurricane season, is the message relayed by Gov. Ron DeSantis on CNBC's "Last Call," which aired on Tuesday. Echoing concerns serious enough to instigate an investigation by the Senate Budget Committee into whether Citizens could afford to pay out claims if such a storm hit the state, DeSantis admitted the state-backed insurer of last resort wasn't solvent. "It is not solvent, and we can't have millions of people on that because if a storm hits, it's going to cause problems for the state," DeSantis said. According to Florida law, if DeSantis is correct and Citizens isn't able to pay out claims, it's Florida homeowners who are on the hook to make up the difference through special assessments, which can be applied to nonpolicy holders.


Dr. Pepper

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2025, 11:53:48 AM »
Not sure if this will help you or not, probably depends on location.

We live on the coast in north FL, we got dropped last year from Citizens because they assessed the value of our home above what they can cover. So I had to find new coverage. There was no carrier willing to write coverage for our home, so we had to go into the non-admitted carrier market. Lloyd's of London sold us a policy that is 5k/yr that covers wind in addition to the other standard perils. I thought that was pricy because we were paying 1.5k /yr for dwelling and 700/yr for wind only from citizens. The citizen's policy was really in name only, the coverage was pretty poor, but it met the requirements for the mortgage. 12k/yr is crazy, and I would probably self insure, if able or move at that point. Just for context , we bought this home 4yrs ago, with a total mortgage payment of 2800/month, we are now at 4100/mo with the increase in property tax and insurance. Crazy times.

Luke Warm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2025, 09:04:46 AM »
Not sure if this will help you or not, probably depends on location.

We live on the coast in north FL, we got dropped last year from Citizens because they assessed the value of our home above what they can cover. So I had to find new coverage. There was no carrier willing to write coverage for our home, so we had to go into the non-admitted carrier market. Lloyd's of London sold us a policy that is 5k/yr that covers wind in addition to the other standard perils. I thought that was pricy because we were paying 1.5k /yr for dwelling and 700/yr for wind only from citizens. The citizen's policy was really in name only, the coverage was pretty poor, but it met the requirements for the mortgage. 12k/yr is crazy, and I would probably self insure, if able or move at that point. Just for context , we bought this home 4yrs ago, with a total mortgage payment of 2800/month, we are now at 4100/mo with the increase in property tax and insurance. Crazy times.

$700 a year? I don't know anyone around here that has that low of a policy. Even brand new houses built to the latest code pay way more than that.

Luke Warm

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2025, 08:08:10 AM »
Quick update. We decided to pay off the house and cancel wind insurance. I talked to the insurance company about just keeping regular house insurance but they said no insurance company would cover us because we have some cast iron drain pipes and our water heaters are too old. So until we got that stuff replaced we are back with Citizens. The water heater replacement is about $5k for two heaters. No idea how much the cast iron pipe replacement will be. There's not that much but we might as well replace the clay sewer lateral while we're at it. I guess it's only money.

Dr. Pepper

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2025, 02:02:18 PM »
Quick update. We decided to pay off the house and cancel wind insurance. I talked to the insurance company about just keeping regular house insurance but they said no insurance company would cover us because we have some cast iron drain pipes and our water heaters are too old. So until we got that stuff replaced we are back with Citizens. The water heater replacement is about $5k for two heaters. No idea how much the cast iron pipe replacement will be. There's not that much but we might as well replace the clay sewer lateral while we're at it. I guess it's only money.

Did you end up checking with non-admitted carriers?

obstinate

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2025, 08:04:09 AM »
Idk but our home is 18yo and we were getting close to needing a new roof.  Turns out we had a severe tstorm with hail the size of baseball two weeks ago.  FF to now and insurance is going to pay for an entire new roof due to the damage from the hail.  Sometimes the gods shine down on you
Btw, this is a large part of why insurance is so expensive in Florida. People do not pay for new roofs in Florida. They just wait until a hurricane damages their roof and then have insurance pay for it.

if DeSantis is correct and Citizens isn't able to pay out claims, it's Florida homeowners who are on the hook to make up the difference through special assessments, which can be applied to nonpolicy holders.
Damn, that's crazy. Seems likely to accelerate the death spiral where inland people opt out of insurance since they are having to pay inordinate amounts for the folks who live on the coast.

Kapyarn

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2025, 09:00:08 AM »
Quick update. We decided to pay off the house and cancel wind insurance. I talked to the insurance company about just keeping regular house insurance but they said no insurance company would cover us because we have some cast iron drain pipes and our water heaters are too old. So until we got that stuff replaced we are back with Citizens. The water heater replacement is about $5k for two heaters. No idea how much the cast iron pipe replacement will be. There's not that much but we might as well replace the clay sewer lateral while we're at it. I guess it's only money.

Wow.  Do you do stuff yourself?  We installed our own water heaters (electric, not gas) and the A.O. Smith water heater itself (50 gallon, not heat pump though) was about $1000.  We built everything in our house and did all roofing/plumbing/wiring/framing/drywall ourselves.  I would not pay $12,000 a year to insure a roof when it only cost me about $6,000 in materials to shingle our entire roof with Owens Corning composite shingles.

startingsmall

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Re: Wind Insurance is Outrageous
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2025, 09:20:06 AM »
Quick update. We decided to pay off the house and cancel wind insurance. I talked to the insurance company about just keeping regular house insurance but they said no insurance company would cover us because we have some cast iron drain pipes and our water heaters are too old. So until we got that stuff replaced we are back with Citizens. The water heater replacement is about $5k for two heaters. No idea how much the cast iron pipe replacement will be. There's not that much but we might as well replace the clay sewer lateral while we're at it. I guess it's only money.

Wow.  Do you do stuff yourself?  We installed our own water heaters (electric, not gas) and the A.O. Smith water heater itself (50 gallon, not heat pump though) was about $1000.  We built everything in our house and did all roofing/plumbing/wiring/framing/drywall ourselves.  I would not pay $12,000 a year to insure a roof when it only cost me about $6,000 in materials to shingle our entire roof with Owens Corning composite shingles.

When we had roof damage during a previous hurricane, the roof damage was the least of our expenses. Yes, our insurance company paid to replace our roof, but they also paid for the replacement of significant amounts of water-damaged drywall/insulation/etc. throughout our home. (Plus we had other insurance-covered damages - our pool cage, fences, large new stucco cracks on the exterior, etc.) Our total damages were, IIRC, somewhere around $150k. Yes, we could have saved money by doing it ourselves, but there was a lot more to it than just the cost of shingles.

We recently moved (elsewhere in SWFL) and homeowners/flood insurance premiums were a major factor in our home selection. My insurance agent was amazing, sending me quotes for any house that we seriously considered.  We were looking in the $450-600k price range (all outside of flood zones) and total insurance prices (homeowners + flood) varied from $3500-11,000/year. We ended up buying a newer home in flood zone X and evacuation zone D, with homeowner's insurance of $2635/year and flood insurance of $1146/year. (Yes, we pay for flood insurance even though we're not in a flood zone. I've seen too many houses flood outside of flood zones with recent tropical storms and hurricanes due to infrastructure/drainage issues.)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2025, 09:32:59 AM by startingsmall »