Author Topic: Will we ever see an end to daylight saving time/clock adjustment nationwide???  (Read 6534 times)

Sojourner

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 128

Leisured

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 518
  • Age: 74
  • Location: South east Australia, in country
  • Retired, and loving it.
I am surprised by the simmering rage felt by many Americans to daylight saving. The northern part of Australia, where I live, is known the Top End, and is within 12 to 15 degrees of the equator, and the closer to the equator the less sense daylight saving makes. Miami is perhaps the most southerly of US cities, and is at latitude 25 degrees.

Canada is closer to the North Pole, so daylight saving makes more sense, because of the large difference in day length from summer to winter.

Good idea, Koshtra to connect all clocks in a house to Wi Fi, and arrange for daylight saving to ease in over perhaps a month, and ease out over a month. Somebody is thinking.

Thank you Sojourner for the YouTube links.

seattlecyclone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4631
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Seattle, WA
I am curious about the time zone map.  Why are parts of Oregon and Kansas in Mountain time?  Why doesn't the Central time zone follow the Wabash/Ohio/Mississippi going down or the west side of Ohio going up (depending if you are making it larger or smaller)?

The lines were drawn to make nearby populated areas be in the same time zone as often as possible. Commuting across time zone lines or doing business with relatively nearby people in a different time zone is inconvenient, so the people who drew the lines tried to minimize the number of people who have to do that. For example that bit of Oregon in Mountain time is a pretty sparsely populated area where the nearest major population center is Boise (in Mountain time), whereas the northern part of Idaho is in Pacific time to better harmonize with Spokane just over the state line to the west.

Imagine if the Mississippi River was the dividing line! Minneapolis and St. Paul would be in different time zones, to name just one urban area that has that river running through it.

Linda_Norway

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4453
Europe is considering to ditch DST and maybe introduce year round summertime.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45366390

But so far I can't find that anything has happened yet. Looks that they have postponed the voting. So I guess this year we will still need to switch. I hope that they will have figured it out before autumn 2019.

https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/states-postpone-eu-scrap-dst.html

I remembering that I answered the poll that is referred to in the article. I voted for permanent summer time, but would have been happy with any time that is the same year round.

This should be one of the good things about FIRE, that you can get up whenever it suits you. It will probably gradually adjust with when the sun gets up. Maybe by the time that Europe has decided, I will be FIREd... (not 2019).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 06:43:51 AM by Linda_Norway »

PloddingInsight

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 308
It took me 20 minutes to find my work shoes this AM and I forgot to bring my leftovers for lunch so I'm going to have to buy something.

My wife reports that getting the kids up for school was a mess as well.

We have to end this barbarity.

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2186
I tend to think the time-change matters more farther north, where there's less daylight to conserve. Noticing all the tropical places (Hawai'i; Caribbean islands) that don't bother makes me think I'm on to something.

Sunrise was 7:39 am in Charlotte this morning. I would have liked to have it still happen at 6:39.

Linda_Norway

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4453
Here in Norway most companies have normal working hours from 8am to 4pm. Most companies have also flexi time, which means you can start working anywhere between 7am and 9am and leave somewhere between 3pm and 6pm.

There is lots of room to vary your own time to go to work, depending on when it suites you. No need therefore to change the whole clock.

Tris Prior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2480
@Linda_Norway, that sounds awesome. My company has some leniency around start time/end time, except we're expected to attend meetings at whatever time they're scheduled, and because many of my meetings are with vendors in India, they are STUPID early. This morning I had a stupid early weekly meeting that I already struggle to be on time for without the time change. So this morning was pretty brutal. Getting up in the dark sucks. Even the cats are confused.

DadJokes

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 170
I tend to think the time-change matters more farther north, where there's less daylight to conserve. Noticing all the tropical places (Hawai'i; Caribbean islands) that don't bother makes me think I'm on to something.

Sunrise was 7:39 am in Charlotte this morning. I would have liked to have it still happen at 6:39.

I live in the southern half of the US. In the winter, it is dark when I get home at 5:00. If we didn't fall back in the winter, it would still be dark when I got home. Unless people up north get off at 3:00, I don't think they are seeing much of a benefit.

It also doesn't help that I'm in the far eastern portion of my time zone, and at one of its widest spots.

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
This is the time of year I most miss living in AZ, where they have no truck with this DST stupidity.

Telecaster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1539
  • Location: Seattle, WA
To me, DST makes perfect sense, and seems to follow my body's natural rhythms.   


EngagedToFIRE

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 29
To me, DST makes perfect sense, and seems to follow my body's natural rhythms.

Sticking with DST permanently?  I like DST time of year because it stays sunny much later.  I don't need sunshine at 6:00 in the morning!  I would vote for permanent DST.

Boofinator

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Arizona gets it, why not all the other states?

Having spent a dozen years in Arizona, I think they have some decent reasons to not use daylight savings that most states do not have. 1) They are pretty far south, so the daylight hour shifts aren't as extreme as for more northern states; 2) Arizona is one of the few places that you want less daylight when you get home summer evenings, as the heat would be unbearable (most outdoor activities occur under the lights for a reason); and 3) Arizona is on the western edge of the Mountain time zone already, so they get more afternoon daylight than someone on the eastern edge would get.

As much of a pain it is to change clocks twice a year, I actually quite like daylight savings (now that I don't live in Arizona any longer). I quite enjoy having a bunch of time late in the evening where I can get stuff done outside, rather than wasting that daylight sleeping in the mornings.

As others have hinted at, mechanical clocks are a creation of modern times; I feel our bodies should sync as closely to daylight as feasible. I'll even go out on a limb and suggest that consideration should be made to break up daylight savings into more than 2 discrete chunks as we currently have it. Maybe call it by the seasons: Winter Time, Spring Time, Summer Time, and Autumn Time.

AZryan

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Hate changing the clocks. Glad to be in AZ where we don't -for all the reasons others already gave.

Please stop blaming what time you do things on the path of the Sun. If it starts getting too dark at night, start earlier. If your work won't allow it, sorry. Try to convince them.

There are SO many diff. times and hours of business for everything that DST doesn't fix anything. Changing clocks just makes everyone have to remember to do something annoying and very problematic twice a year.

monte0930

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 40
I grew up in California, moved to Arizona for my career. I LOVE not having to do daylight saving changes! Since I get up before the sun year round anyway it makes no difference to me if we change the time or not. Plus there is no hassle having to arbitrarily change all my clocks twice per year.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12676
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Arizona gets it, why not all the other states?

Having spent a dozen years in Arizona, I think they have some decent reasons to not use daylight savings that most states do not have. 1) They are pretty far south, so the daylight hour shifts aren't as extreme as for more northern states; 2) Arizona is one of the few places that you want less daylight when you get home summer evenings, as the heat would be unbearable (most outdoor activities occur under the lights for a reason); and 3) Arizona is on the western edge of the Mountain time zone already, so they get more afternoon daylight than someone on the eastern edge would get.

As much of a pain it is to change clocks twice a year, I actually quite like daylight savings (now that I don't live in Arizona any longer). I quite enjoy having a bunch of time late in the evening where I can get stuff done outside, rather than wasting that daylight sleeping in the mornings.

As others have hinted at, mechanical clocks are a creation of modern times; I feel our bodies should sync as closely to daylight as feasible. I'll even go out on a limb and suggest that consideration should be made to break up daylight savings into more than 2 discrete chunks as we currently have it. Maybe call it by the seasons: Winter Time, Spring Time, Summer Time, and Autumn Time.

The nights get longer in the winter and the days get longer in the summer up North.  There's no shift in one direction or the other, or DST might not be totally pointless ball busting.

mm1970

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6249
I absolutely fucking hate it, and would prefer to just be on standard time the entire year. I've spent the last month training my very non-morning person self to get up by 6am to run before work. I hate it, but running before work is much more pleasant to me than after work. Now it's fucking dark at 6am. My 6 year old was an absolute demon from hell this morning, thanks to the time change. We are all exhausted and cranky. Being light later in the evening just makes bedtime harder with the younger kids. I don't know that I have ever wanted to be retired as much as I did this morning when we were trying to pry the 6 year old out of the car at the before-school care (school starts at 9). If I didn't have to work I could have let her sleep in and not had any of that heinous drama this morning.

I rarely take advantage of the fact that we're "allowed" to swear here, but I needed it this morning, thanks!!
+1

Track last week at 6 am...it's already starting to get light out, yay!  Guy next to me says - hey time change, it will be light next week!

Took me a minute before I told him...um, no...other way around.  We'll be running in the pitch dark and the sun will be barely coming up when we are done.

Plus I have a lot of phone calls with Asia.  In the (too short) winter, they start at 3 and I can be done by 5.  The rest of the year?  meetings go till 6 or 7.

Boofinator

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Arizona gets it, why not all the other states?

Having spent a dozen years in Arizona, I think they have some decent reasons to not use daylight savings that most states do not have. 1) They are pretty far south, so the daylight hour shifts aren't as extreme as for more northern states; 2) Arizona is one of the few places that you want less daylight when you get home summer evenings, as the heat would be unbearable (most outdoor activities occur under the lights for a reason); and 3) Arizona is on the western edge of the Mountain time zone already, so they get more afternoon daylight than someone on the eastern edge would get.

As much of a pain it is to change clocks twice a year, I actually quite like daylight savings (now that I don't live in Arizona any longer). I quite enjoy having a bunch of time late in the evening where I can get stuff done outside, rather than wasting that daylight sleeping in the mornings.

As others have hinted at, mechanical clocks are a creation of modern times; I feel our bodies should sync as closely to daylight as feasible. I'll even go out on a limb and suggest that consideration should be made to break up daylight savings into more than 2 discrete chunks as we currently have it. Maybe call it by the seasons: Winter Time, Spring Time, Summer Time, and Autumn Time.

The nights get longer in the winter and the days get longer in the summer up North.  There's no shift in one direction or the other, or DST might not be totally pointless ball busting.

Let me approach it from a different direction. I'd like to think our ancestors weren't total morons when they implemented DST. So 1) what were their reasons, 2) are their reasons still applicable, and 3) are there any other modern reasons for or against DST?

1) Back in the day, a lot more occupations needed natural sunlight. Relatively few people had office jobs, and light cost much more to produce (higher energy costs plus less-efficient lighting sources). So people needed daylight during working hours, but then after those were done they would have wanted as much daylight in the evenings as possible. As far as I can tell, DST was pretty universally esteemed for its benefits when it was first implemented.

2) A lot of those benefits aren't as applicable anymore. Lighting is much cheaper and ubiquitous. Not as many jobs require natural lighting (if I had to take a swag at it: 25%?). Though I would say people do enjoy the daylight in the summer evenings. So to answer the second question, I think having light during working hours is still applicable, but not as important, but having daylight in the summer evenings is still very much desired (or conversely, having daylight during morning sleeping hours is not desired).

3) The sole downside, in my opinion, of unending DST is having pitch blackness during the winter morning hours. I personally don't tend to use those hours for outdoor activities anyway, as it's cold and I have little desire to get up early (plus it's dark when I go into work anyways). The only possible benefit I can think of for earlier daylight is it might allow for snow to melt off earlier on the streets, thereby making them safer for traffic. (I'm open to dissenting opinions.)

ETA: Staying on DST all year is no different than staying on Standard Time all year and getting up an hour earlier every day. I'm not sure really what the point would be (except some kind of self-delusional trickery)?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 02:32:56 PM by Boofinator »

Telecaster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1539
  • Location: Seattle, WA
To me, DST makes perfect sense, and seems to follow my body's natural rhythms.

Sticking with DST permanently?  I like DST time of year because it stays sunny much later.  I don't need sunshine at 6:00 in the morning!  I would vote for permanent DST.

Naw, because it is too dark in the winter mornings.   It doesn't feel natural (to me) to get up too much before the sunrise.   

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
For anyone with strong feelings on the subject I would recommend the book Seize the Daylight: The Curious and Contentious Story of Daylight Saving Time by David Prerau. There's also a website for the book - http://www.seizethedaylight.com/

My most important takeaway from the book is that this shit is complicated. No matter what changes are made there's going to be someone who is very upset.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 02:18:43 PM by Dabnasty »

EngagedToFIRE

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 29
To me, DST makes perfect sense, and seems to follow my body's natural rhythms.

Sticking with DST permanently?  I like DST time of year because it stays sunny much later.  I don't need sunshine at 6:00 in the morning!  I would vote for permanent DST.

Naw, because it is too dark in the winter mornings.   It doesn't feel natural (to me) to get up too much before the sunrise.

Makes sense.  I live way south so I can't relate.

Jouer

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
I hope not. It's awesome!

Boofinator

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
For anyone with strong feelings on the subject I would recommend the book Seize the Daylight: The Curious and Contentious Story of Daylight Saving Time by David Prerau. There's also a website for the book - http://www.seizethedaylight.com/

My most important takeaway from the book is that this shit is complicated. No matter what changes are made there's going to be someone who is very upset.

Agreed, this shit is more complicated than the small pain-in-the-ass that occurs twice a year. Chesterton's fence in action.

Philociraptor

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
  • Age: 29
  • Location: DFW, TX
  • Eat. Sleep. Invest. Repeat.
Fuck DST. Makes it impossible to fall asleep at a reasonable time during the summer, and has me getting off work nearer the hottest part of the day. If we were on it year-round winter mornings would be unbearable. Nope, let's just end the madness please.

frost7777

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • ModernNomads
Yes, the whole time zone thing was an adjustment to the railroad era. Before that, local noon was when the sun was highest in the sky during the day on that particular meridian, and you set your watch by the village clock, and the fact that it was ten minutes different from the clocks in a town fifty miles west didn't trouble anyone much.

Then people got used to "noon" meaning "whenever the clock hits twelve, regardless of where the sun is," and at that point we were ripe for horological abuse :-)

The idea of local noon sounds appealing to me.  Not a chance of that ever happening again now that we are in constant communication over long distances.

A couple years ago the idea of building a sundial in my front yard got stuck in my head.  As I set about researching what I would need to get this thing to work and be able to read it correctly, I realized a couple of things.
1.  The time zones are all messed up.  You would think that you would try to align your time zones to be centered around the solar observation.  In reality the eastern edge of the time zones in the US end up being pretty close.  While people like my self living on the western edge of a time zone are an hour off from the solar observance.  About 48 to 52 minutes in my case.
2.  When we add DST into the equation now things get even more out of balance.   So for my location high noon occurs at 1:50 for most of the year.  Who decided this?  Did they even consider that somebody might want to build a sundial in their yard, and that it is going to look funny, if you have to build in these adjustments?

Anyway, yes I would prefer that we just pick either standard or DST time and leave the clocks alone.  I live in the northern US and the change makes no difference for us.  In the summer it is light out when we go to bed and when we get up.  In the winter the sun comes up after I get to work, and goes down before I leave.  Adjusting the clocks by an hour does nothing to change this.     

cloudsail

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
Before I had kids switching the clocks was a minor annoyance. Now it is a GODDAMN GIANT POINTLESS DISRUPTION OF OUR LIVES twice a year.

My kids were still having trouble falling asleep last night and getting up this morning.

For God's sake just pick a time and stick with it already!!!

Boofinator

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Wow, everybody here must have demon spawn. My kids adjusted fine after a couple nights.

o2bfree

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 263
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
End it now! And let's finally go 100% metric too!!! There was a movement to go metric in the 70s, but it died out.

Boofinator

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
End it now! And let's finally go 100% metric too!!! There was a movement to go metric in the 70s, but it died out.

I'm down with metric. That's progress. Ending DST is regress.

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9922
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
If we had not switched to DST, solar noon in Ottawa would have been at 12:12PM today.  Instead it was at 1:12.

Found a neat representation of daylength and time at
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/canada/ottawa

koshtra

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
  • Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
  • massage therapist, database guy, worder
    • Mole
If you're someone whose internal clocks run in that nice little median band, changing times is not much of a problem. If you're someone whose sleep is already challenged because you're a morning person or a night owl, the time changes can come as a real whallop. I'm an extreme morning person -- I'm always up hours before the sun -- and I loathe the time changes with all my heart.

As for whether standard or DST, I don't give a damn; whatever you like. Just stop jerking the fucking chain by an hour twice a year.

As for losing your precious goddamn hour of evening light -- to a morning person this is an absurd argument. I watch you guys in high summer, sleeping till 9:00 and pissing away five glorious hours of morning daylight every goddamn day. Pick another argument.

Philociraptor

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
  • Age: 29
  • Location: DFW, TX
  • Eat. Sleep. Invest. Repeat.
As for losing your precious goddamn hour of evening light -- to a morning person this is an absurd argument. I watch you guys in high summer, sleeping till 9:00 and pissing away five glorious hours of morning daylight every goddamn day. Pick another argument.

Did we just become best friends?

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
If you're someone whose internal clocks run in that nice little median band, changing times is not much of a problem. If you're someone whose sleep is already challenged because you're a morning person or a night owl, the time changes can come as a real whallop. I'm an extreme morning person -- I'm always up hours before the sun -- and I loathe the time changes with all my heart.

As for whether standard or DST, I don't give a damn; whatever you like. Just stop jerking the fucking chain by an hour twice a year.

As for losing your precious goddamn hour of evening light -- to a morning person this is an absurd argument. I watch you guys in high summer, sleeping till 9:00 and pissing away five glorious hours three hours and 39 minutes of morning daylight every goddamn day on the longest days of the year. Pick another argument.

:)

And like you said, some people's internal clocks just work differently. I'm sure some of those 9:00 risers could get up earlier if they wanted to but for others that would be a real challenge. Even if they force themselves to get up, doing so might mess with their head.

*I suppose it would be close to 5 hours if there was no DST.

cloudsail

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
Wow, everybody here must have demon spawn. My kids adjusted fine after a couple nights.

I would've thought that being parent would have made you more understanding of the fact that all children are different. They are all difficult in some areas and less difficult in others. And to be more empathetic toward the difficulties that other parents are facing, even though you may not be experiencing that particular difficulty with your child.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12676
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Wow, everybody here must have demon spawn. My kids adjusted fine after a couple nights.

I would've thought that being parent would have made you more understanding of the fact that all children are different. They are all difficult in some areas and less difficult in others. And to be more empathetic toward the difficulties that other parents are facing, even though you may not be experiencing that particular difficulty with your child.

To be fair, my child is likely demon spawn.  He still hasn't adjusted.

Linda_Norway

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4453
We could also switch to using UTM, like they do in aviation. And then start working on different hours. This would make international collaboration easier. UTM is GMT, but without the DST.

Boofinator

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Wow, everybody here must have demon spawn. My kids adjusted fine after a couple nights.

I would've thought that being parent would have made you more understanding of the fact that all children are different. They are all difficult in some areas and less difficult in others. And to be more empathetic toward the difficulties that other parents are facing, even though you may not be experiencing that particular difficulty with your child.

I couldn't agree more. I have the kids I never have to worry about waking up, and kids I always have to fight like hell to go to bed and wake up in the morning. DST didn't really make it more difficult, except for a couple of days.

kimmarg

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 711
  • Location: Northern New England
We could also switch to using UTM, like they do in aviation. And then start working on different hours. This would make international collaboration easier. UTM is GMT, but without the DST.

I DO work in UTM and it makes the time change even worse. Because then I have to sort out which tasks are done at the same time UTM every day and which are at the same time local. It's a pain in the ass. I'm always doing something an hour early or hour late.  Oh and the hour of OT for working 2-3am twice in the Fall - yuck!