Author Topic: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?  (Read 82035 times)

teen persuasion

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2016, 08:32:29 PM »
Thanks for all the enlightening responses, guys. There appears to be a consensus, so I going to assume the info is correct.

However, the data provided by healthcare.gov is discouraging. It appears as if I would be paying a premium of $325/mo + an average deductible of 3.5k/yr. That's nearly $8,000 annually that would be siphoned from my wallet before the insurance company pitches in a dime. Then there would be copays to deal with. Very anti-Mustachian!

Also, nystateofhealth.ny.gov is dysfunctional. It makes no distinction between the "Bronze", "Silver", "Gold" and "Platinum" plans. Only one price is displayed for all of them.
Another issue is that it's difficult to obtain information regarding the subsidy that I qualify for. When I enter my income and other information, I click the "Estimate Financial Help" tab, and nothing happens. This is why I turned to this forum for guidance.
Of course, when I actually near retirement, I will make a more dedicated effort to unveil the intricacies of the ACA and how it affects me personally. For now, I just wanted to know whether the news for me is positive or negative. Details can come later.

I'm going to share this page with my cynical friend, though I doubt he will be convinced.
Your premiums would likely be reduced to $20/month or so once the subsidies were applied. At your projected income level you can probably get the highest cost Platinum Plan for just a few bucks a month and zero out of pocket expenses for deductible or co pays. If the NY site doesn't work try the Fed site. Also Kaiser and other insurance companies have calculators.
Below 200 FPL and above 138 FPL there are no "metal" plans in NY.  It is the "Essential Plan".  It has no subsidy.  It is either $20 a month or it is free.  Also no open enrolment period, open all year.  It is particular to NY.

http://info.nystateofhealth.ny.gov/sites/default/files/Essential%20Plan%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf
http://info.nystateofhealth.ny.gov/sites/default/files/Essential%20Plan%20Benefits%20and%20Cost%20Sharing_1.pdf

Thanks for the info and links!

Amazing.  This did not exist 2 years ago when we went thru NYStateOfHealth for insurance when DH was between jobs.  If the income levels are AGI, we'd be in level 3 it looks like.  Too bad we can't opt out of employer insurance and be eligible for this - we are contributing $4k for a HDHP, and pay all deductibles.

Yaeger

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2016, 09:55:45 PM »
Tell you what, when I hit retirement age, just give me back the $150,000+ I paid in Medicare taxes on a middle class salary and we'll call it even. I can manage my healthcare better than the government can.

You're going to make over $10.34 million dollars? That doesn't seem to be middle class. Even if you work 40 years, that's still over $250k/year.

Medicare tax is 1.45%. $150k/1.45% = $10.34M.

Medicare tax is 2.9%. I just did some basic math, based on what that I could get in a safe, risk-adverse savings portfolio. $70,000 * .029 = $2,030 per year. Throw that into a calculator based on a 2% super conservative interest rate to meet inflation, added monthly, for 45 years and it comes out as almost $150,000. Assuming that my taxable income remains constant at $70,000 for 45 years of contributions.

Let me know if my math sucks, I tried to keep it relatively conservative.

goatmom

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2016, 05:24:54 AM »
The upper class people I see with Medicaid/subsidies are not living well beneath their means.  They are taking a year or two off to travel.  They don't like working.  They just don't need to because parents left them so much money.  Etc.  I don't mind paying taxes for low income people to get healthcare - but it really rubs me the wrong way when I see some people who work hard and can't afford their medications because of the high deductible and Mr. Trust Fund Baby is snickering about how he only has to pay 3 dollars for his because he is on Medicaid.  And I don't see why we should reward people for retiring early and living below their means.  Yes, I am a fan of it of course that is why I am here - but I don't want to do it at the expense of hard working people.

Mac_MacGyver

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2016, 05:56:46 AM »
I think obamacare will be means tested in the future due to it not being medicaid and nobody is paying into it unless a member.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2016, 07:05:53 AM »
Yaeger,
It is almost impossible to get people to agree when it will actively affect their own wallets.

They will say it is the law of the land, or to protect the poor. But in reality it is just so they can retire earlier and live of other hard working Americans. Pathetic.

And yes, I too try and take advantage of every loop hole available because I am human also.

jim555

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2016, 07:19:00 AM »
I don't think it will be means tested.  It will either be repealed entirely or manage to stay in place basically as is if Hillary wins.  Republicans proposals are a joke.  Let the poor go to the ER and declare bankruptcy is wrong on so many levels yet that is what they are doing to millions right now in the unexpanded states.

MrStash2000

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2016, 08:15:03 AM »
OP,

Don't feel bad for taking advantage of ACA even though you may very well have a 7 figure net-worth down the road.

If the American people are dumb enough to vote for politicians like Obama/Clinton that enact laws that are basically gifts to rich people like you.... then just take the money!

Spork

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2016, 08:35:57 AM »
If the American people are dumb enough to vote for politicians like Obama/Clinton that enact laws that are basically gifts to rich people like you.... then just take the money!

Always blame Congress. 

The President always gets more credit/blame than they deserve.  Congress skates by and idiots get re-elected year after year.

Eric

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2016, 10:10:43 AM »
I think obamacare will be means tested in the future due to it not being medicaid and nobody is paying into it unless a member.

There will never, never be a means test.  Why?  There is no structure in place to figure out what counts as assets.  Think about how simple income is, and how complicated the tax code is and the number of IRS employees needed to enforce it.  Now instead of income, you're talking about assets and trying to determine what they are worth, which is probably 10x more complicated than income.

Anyone who thinks that "we should just means test" basically has put zero thought into the process.  (Edit -- or even with thought, they don't have any accounting background and can't grasp how insanely complicated that process would be)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 10:18:23 AM by Eric »

Eric

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2016, 10:12:07 AM »
Yaeger,
It is almost impossible to get people to agree when it will actively affect their own wallets.

Have you ever considered that it's more likely that y'all have terrible ideas?  And that people don't agree because people don't like terrible ideas?  Occam's Razor and all...

Spork

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2016, 10:13:31 AM »
I think obamacare will be means tested in the future due to it not being medicaid and nobody is paying into it unless a member.

There will never, never be a means test for any benefit.  Why?  There is no structure in place to figure out what counts as assets.  Think about how simple income is, and how complicated the tax code is and the number of IRS employees needed to enforce it.  Now instead of income, you're talking about assets and trying to determine what they are worth, which is probably 10x more complicated than income.

Anyone who thinks that "we should just means test" basically has put zero thought into the process.

Um, wow.  Yeah. You're right.  I actually never have thought about it and... it would be a total clusterfck if they tried.  Fair point.

monstermonster

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2016, 10:39:18 AM »
To be fair, in most states social services are means tested. In the majority of US states, your checking account cannot have more than $2,000 in it to qualify for food stamps, Temporary ASsistance for Needy Families, section 8 wait lists, and a number of other safety net programs.

Value of one car is excluded in most states, but not all.

True poverty programs are less complicated than things like the exchange subsidies.

And I call bullshit on Mustachians who think they are "living like they are in poverty" on $20K a year when they have paid off houses and the free time that comes from being retired rather than a hard labor minimum wage job. But that's my perogative. Voluntary poverty and early retirement are not one and the same.

Shane

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2016, 10:53:04 AM »
Somehow, they manage to means test "regular" Medicaid for people 65 and older. I know of two people who have had their houses confiscated by the federal government as compensation for medical bills that were paid for them by Medicaid. So, while means testing may be difficult, it's apparently not impossible.

Right now, eligibility for programs like food stamps aka SNAP are means tested. When you try to sign up for them, they ask you to tell them what your assets are. Obviously, people could lie, but it seems like it would be kind of risky to me. If you sign up for food stamps and tell them you don't have any money in your bank account, and then it turns out you've got $1MM in index funds, at the very least, the government is going to take back their money, but it's also likely you'd end up in jail for fraud...

beltim

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2016, 10:59:44 AM »
I think obamacare will be means tested in the future due to it not being medicaid and nobody is paying into it unless a member.

There will never, never be a means test.  Why?  There is no structure in place to figure out what counts as assets.  Think about how simple income is, and how complicated the tax code is and the number of IRS employees needed to enforce it.  Now instead of income, you're talking about assets and trying to determine what they are worth, which is probably 10x more complicated than income.

Anyone who thinks that "we should just means test" basically has put zero thought into the process.  (Edit -- or even with thought, they don't have any accounting background and can't grasp how insanely complicated that process would be)

This is, of course, why there is no asset test to determine financial aid for college.

Oh wait..

jim555

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2016, 11:32:39 AM »
Not all states have means tests for SNAP, NY doesn't.

joer1212

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2016, 11:50:24 AM »
I think obamacare will be means tested in the future due to it not being medicaid and nobody is paying into it unless a member.

So, if means testing went into effect, would a person with 1m in assets be expected to gradually deplete his nest egg in order to purchase mandated, overpriced health insurance? After my nest egg is exhausted, would the government then step in and lift me over the poverty line?
1 million is not that much money, when you consider the fact that you can only safely withdraw about 3%/yr from this principal. That's a measly 30k annual income before taxes, a far cry from being 'wealthy'. Means testing would be a disaster. I would leave the U.S. in a heartbeat if they instituted this nightmare.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 01:40:04 PM by joer1212 »

Cassie

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2016, 11:51:24 AM »
People over 65 get Medicare not Medicaid and I doubt they are taking people's houses unless you mean once they die they can get their $ back when the    house sells.

monstermonster

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2016, 12:11:42 PM »
Not all states have means tests for SNAP, NY doesn't.

I specified it's not all. Here's a guide to the states that do asset test: http://scorecard.assetsandopportunity.org/latest/measure/asset-limits-in-public-benefit-programs

goatmom

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2016, 01:41:58 PM »
I am not an accountant and really have no clue how hard it would be - but if they can do it for college financial aid - I guess I am too dumb to understand why they can't do it for subsidies as well.  As for depleting your nest egg, I don't understand why anyone thinks it is ok to have hardworking people support their early retirement.  If you plan on retiring early - that is a wonderful thing - you need to save enough to make it work. If your nest egg gets depleted, then it wasn't big enough to retire early.

iris lily

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2016, 01:46:33 PM »
Ah, I always enjoy a rowdy discussin of The ACA, means testing, who should pay for subsidies, and gaming the system!
Thanks, all!

Cassie

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2016, 01:51:37 PM »
Spartana, I know that in many states if you use Medicaid for nursing home care the last person alive can live in the house until they die or unless they are in care a certain # of days. Then the house gets sold and I think that is fair. YOu should not get to leave your house to someone while the state paid for your care.  At least the living person does not get thrown out of their home in the states I am familiar with.

Cassie

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2016, 02:10:46 PM »
I had not thought about if you were single but I also think it is fair.  Sometimes people just go into a home to rehab and then go home so I hope it would let them keep the home in that circumstance. But I guess the difference would be that Medicare was paying for the rehab and not Medicaid so that probably solves the problem. With all the baby boomers getting old it will be a problem although I did read that a small percentage of people end up in homes.

Eric

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2016, 07:21:19 PM »
I am not an accountant and really have no clue how hard it would be - but if they can do it for college financial aid - I guess I am too dumb to understand why they can't do it for subsidies as well.

Yes, they do it for college financial aid, and the whole process is a clusterfuck.  So sure, they could do it.  But they won't because it would cost more to implement than they would save.  Do you really think there are a lot of people out there with tons of assets and little income?  It's a tiny slice of the population.  Essentially, you'd be spending $100 to save $50.  Now I realize that sounds like the perfect government program, but I'm surprised that anyone would support it.


As for depleting your nest egg, I don't understand why anyone thinks it is ok to have hardworking people support their early retirement.

This is why when I retire, I'm not going to use any public roads, visit any public parks, take any university classes, or ever call for police or fire help even if my house is on fire and being robbed.  I won't take the standard deduction when filing my taxes, nor will I collect Social Security or Medicare.  This way I can have a clear conscious of not having any hardworking people support my retirement.  I'll expect you to join me.

Yaeger

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2016, 07:40:57 PM »
This is why when I retire, I'm not going to use any public roads, visit any public parks, take any university classes, or ever call for police or fire help even if my house is on fire and being robbed.  I won't take the standard deduction when filing my taxes, nor will I collect Social Security or Medicare.  This way I can have a clear conscious of not having any hardworking people support my retirement.  I'll expect you to join me.

I think you're shirking your social responsibility by pursuing a goal of early retirement. You're an able-bodied, white, male privileged worker who is perfectly capable of working to support others instead of focusing on your selfish, capitalistic goals of living off the work of the less fortunate.

Your entire argument revolves around your self-interest. Hell, I'll forgo collecting on social security and medicare as long as I can force legislation on those at my wealth level, and above, to do the same to pay for means-testing, tax reductions of major programs, and to support the consolidation of our hundreds of separate welfare programs.

protostache

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2016, 07:56:21 PM »
This is why when I retire, I'm not going to use any public roads, visit any public parks, take any university classes, or ever call for police or fire help even if my house is on fire and being robbed.  I won't take the standard deduction when filing my taxes, nor will I collect Social Security or Medicare.  This way I can have a clear conscious of not having any hardworking people support my retirement.  I'll expect you to join me.

I think you're shirking your social responsibility by pursuing a goal of early retirement. You're an able-bodied, white, male privileged worker who is perfectly capable of working to support others instead of focusing on your selfish, capitalistic goals of living off the work of the less fortunate.

Your entire argument revolves around your self-interest. Hell, I'll forgo collecting on social security and medicare as long as I can force legislation on those at my wealth level, and above, to do the same to pay for means-testing, tax reductions of major programs, and to support the consolidation of our hundreds of separate welfare programs.

Why are you even here?

goatmom

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2016, 08:46:23 PM »
I think there is a big difference between using public roads and libraries and using programs that are targeted for the poor and low income.  Would you apply for food stamps? I don't think so.  Those are programs for the poor.  I am not poor and would not use those programs.  Maybe it is just me - but I see a big difference.

Shane

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2016, 10:41:06 PM »
People over 65 get Medicare not Medicaid and I doubt they are taking people's houses unless you mean once they die they can get their $ back when the    house sells.

You're right, but Medicare doesn't pay for long-term care. So, right now, people over 65 who need long-term care and don't have private insurance or enough liquid assets to pay for it themselves are forced to spend down their money until they meet the threshold to qualify for Medicaid, at which point Medicaid will pay for their nursing home.

Both cases I was referring to where people's homes were taken happened after the people had died. Instead of the people's families getting their homes, they were taken by the government and sold to recoup some of the money it had paid to care for the people before they died. 

Shane

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2016, 11:21:46 PM »
The idea that individuals should be held personally responsible to pay for their medical care seems to be a deeply held belief among many Americans. I strongly disagree. Healthcare is something that rich countries like the United States should provide all residents free of charge, just like we do police, fire and military protection, schools, roads, national parks, etc.

jim555

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2016, 11:54:54 PM »
I see no problem in getting as much as possible (legally) from any program available.  I paid taxes for my whole working life, what I collect will be a mere fraction of the total taxes paid out.
And I want my SS and Medicare, and I plan for it.  So shoot me.  This is not an outrageous position.  I think those who are planning to take away benefits should be removed from office ASAP.  Go near SS and feel the third rail of politics. 

Yaeger

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2016, 12:34:43 AM »
I see no problem in getting as much as possible (legally) from any program available.  I paid taxes for my whole working life, what I collect will be a mere fraction of the total taxes paid out.
And I want my SS and Medicare, and I plan for it.  So shoot me.  This is not an outrageous position.  I think those who are planning to take away benefits should be removed from office ASAP.  Go near SS and feel the third rail of politics.

I commiserate with you in regards to Social Security and Medicare.

However, your money is gone, spent by a large portion of people that are dead, promised to you by a large number of people that are dead. They're gone, the money is gone, and your SS and Medicare doesn't exist. I don't support the idea that young, struggling families owe us anything. Have they benefited from our decades of FICA taxes? Nope.

FIRE me

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2016, 12:45:50 AM »
Healthcare fundamentally isn't a right.

Yes it is. Per the UN, Healthcare is a fundamental human right. Just not yet recognized by certain backward nations.

Article 25.
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_health

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2016, 01:08:12 AM »
If you do that... does the subsidy not still apply when you file taxes?  (Not trying to start a political firestorm again... trying to understand how it works.)

Nope. If you buy direct from any insurance company, or from a company or independant agent, you will not get any subsidy. To get the subsidy when you file, you have to buy the policy through either the Federal exchange or your state's exchange (if your state has one). And, I'm pretty sure, it has the be a Silver policy.

Yaeger

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2016, 01:55:10 AM »
Healthcare fundamentally isn't a right.

Yes it is. Per the UN, Healthcare is a fundamental human right. Just not yet recognized by certain backward nations.

Article 25.
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_health

No it's not, despite what the U.N. wishes it could turn into rights, it's a meaningless declaration. The U.N's Declaration of Human Rights throws in 'adequate' medical care with clothing, housing, social services, security from unemployment, widowhood, and other pie-in-the-sky ideals. You can argue equal access to healthcare is a right, and I'd agree, but you don't have a fundamental right to demand someone's labor or the results of that labor without compensating them. Ultimately a provider of healthcare has the right to define and charge what he/she thinks their service is worth.

Maybe the rest of the world will get in line with that and move away from this socialist marxism attitude that seems to think that 'rights' entitle you to other people's stuff, but maybe that's just my uniquely American viewpoint.

Gin1984

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2016, 05:16:43 AM »
If you do that... does the subsidy not still apply when you file taxes?  (Not trying to start a political firestorm again... trying to understand how it works.)

Nope. If you buy direct from any insurance company, or from a company or independant agent, you will not get any subsidy. To get the subsidy when you file, you have to buy the policy through either the Federal exchange or your state's exchange (if your state has one). And, I'm pretty sure, it has the be a Silver policy.
Not true. 

goatmom

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2016, 05:41:10 AM »
The idea that individuals should be held personally responsible to pay for their medical care seems to be a deeply held belief among many Americans. I strongly disagree. Healthcare is something that rich countries like the United States should provide all residents free of charge, just like we do police, fire and military protection, schools, roads, national parks, etc.


I would feel differently if everyone got free health care.  But here, we are talking about some people getting free health care through healthcare law loopholes at the expense of other people paying higher taxes and not getting the same free health care. Again,  I see working people that can't afford to get their prescriptions while rich kids on medicaid snicker about their three dollar prescriptions. 

jim555

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2016, 06:18:05 AM »
Taxation has winners and losers all the time.  I have no children, yet I am taxed every year a good amount to pay for public schools, is that fair?  If I can get something back by legally taking advantage of the law I am doing it with no moral or ethical questions in my mind.

bryan995

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2016, 07:01:00 AM »
Anyone who thinks that "we should just means test" basically has put zero thought into the process.  (Edit -- or even with thought, they don't have any accounting background and can't grasp how insanely complicated that process would be)

^Yes!
This is a problem with most emotional based decisions that the uninformed make.  Nothing is ever thought through, they only look for short-term feel-good solutions.

-
So what sort of income limits are we looking at for ACA? I would imagine this would be a huge driving force in terms of setting the bulk of FIREees withdrawl/income level?

20k = almost fully subsidized act?
>47k = no ACA subsidy?

Where is the sweet spot?
Has anyone calculated/plotted some sort of a benefits/income ratio across all income ranges?

So I can pull 47k from investments per year and stilly relatively pay nothing for health insurance for an entire family?
Maybe I also have 500k in cash/checking/savings sitting aside to account for overage years? Withdrawing from checking/savings does not count as income, tax has already been paid during the previous accumulation years.
Then any unexpected costs (e.g. roof repair?) will not cause the loss of ACA sub?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 07:39:28 AM by bryan995 »

Mac_MacGyver

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2016, 07:23:15 AM »
I think obamacare will be means tested in the future due to it not being medicaid and nobody is paying into it unless a member.

There will never, never be a means test.  Why?  There is no structure in place to figure out what counts as assets.  Think about how simple income is, and how complicated the tax code is and the number of IRS employees needed to enforce it.  Now instead of income, you're talking about assets and trying to determine what they are worth, which is probably 10x more complicated than income.

Anyone who thinks that "we should just means test" basically has put zero thought into the process.  (Edit -- or even with thought, they don't have any accounting background and can't grasp how insanely complicated that process would be)

So i say in the "future" and you say "there will never, never be a means test" because "there is no structure in place to figure out what counts as assets". Are you kidding me, govt already does means testing for certain services like food programs, financial assistance, medicaid, VA. Also, i never said "we should just means test".

jim555

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2016, 07:31:36 AM »
Medicaid is basically a loan that can be recovered with estate recovery, so they will get their money back eventually.  The ACA is a gift for ER.  The hostility towards it amazes me since this is a board for those who want to ER.  You guys are cutting your own throats.

geekette

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2016, 08:14:25 AM »
So what sort of income limits are we looking at for ACA? I would imagine this would be a huge driving force in terms of setting the bulk of FIREees withdrawl/income level?

20k = almost fully subsidized act?
>47k = no ACA subsidy?

Where is the sweet spot?
Has anyone calculated/plotted some sort of a benefits/income ratio across all income ranges?

So I can pull 47k from investments per year and stilly relatively pay nothing for health insurance for an entire family?
Maybe I also have 500k in cash/checking/savings sitting aside to account for overage years? Withdrawing from checking/savings does not count as income, tax has already been paid during the previous accumulation years.
Then any unexpected costs (e.g. roof repair?) will not cause the loss of ACA sub?
Using savings is not considered income, so your roof is safe. 

Also consider that only the profits from investments is considered income - if you bought stock for $25k, and you sell it for $47k, your taxable income is $22k.  The "sweet spot", so to speak, would be income of just above 138% of the FPL for your family size. 

Good calculator to play with is here.

Shane

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2016, 09:04:57 AM »
Anyone who thinks that "we should just means test" basically has put zero thought into the process.  (Edit -- or even with thought, they don't have any accounting background and can't grasp how insanely complicated that process would be)

^Yes!
This is a problem with most emotional based decisions that the uninformed make.  Nothing is ever thought through, they only look for short-term feel-good solutions.

-
So what sort of income limits are we looking at for ACA? I would imagine this would be a huge driving force in terms of setting the bulk of FIREees withdrawl/income level?

20k = almost fully subsidized act?
>47k = no ACA subsidy?

Where is the sweet spot?
Has anyone calculated/plotted some sort of a benefits/income ratio across all income ranges?

So I can pull 47k from investments per year and stilly relatively pay nothing for health insurance for an entire family?
Maybe I also have 500k in cash/checking/savings sitting aside to account for overage years? Withdrawing from checking/savings does not count as income, tax has already been paid during the previous accumulation years.
Then any unexpected costs (e.g. roof repair?) will not cause the loss of ACA sub?

Here are links to some good articles on strategies for optimizing ACA benefits that I've found helpful. If you search, I'm sure you can find tons more online:

Root of Good

Seattle Cyclone

Go Curry Cracker

Shane

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2016, 09:11:07 AM »
The idea that individuals should be held personally responsible to pay for their medical care seems to be a deeply held belief among many Americans. I strongly disagree. Healthcare is something that rich countries like the United States should provide all residents free of charge, just like we do police, fire and military protection, schools, roads, national parks, etc.

I would feel differently if everyone got free health care.  But here, we are talking about some people getting free health care through healthcare law loopholes at the expense of other people paying higher taxes and not getting the same free health care. Again,  I see working people that can't afford to get their prescriptions while rich kids on medicaid snicker about their three dollar prescriptions.

That's why we need to move to a single-payer healthcare system and make it available to everyone living in our country for free. Nobody should ever have to worry how she'll pay for pay for an ER visit for one of her kids or herself.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2016, 09:23:09 AM »
Yaeger,
It is almost impossible to get people to agree when it will actively affect their own wallets.

Have you ever considered that it's more likely that y'all have terrible ideas?  And that people don't agree because people don't like terrible ideas?  Occam's Razor and all...

I'm all for having funds to be able to pay for the health care of actual poor people. I doubt you think that is a terrible idea do you?
I'm also for not allowing rich early retirees to live off the backs of hard working Americans while claiming it is the law of the land and talking about helping people in poverty.

To be fair and honest I too would take advantage of Obamacare in retirement if I could. If someone is going to give me a free dollar I would be an idiot for not taking it. But I am not kidding myself that this dollar is earned by taking it away from those that are still working.

Like I said. Preach all you want about poverty and helping others, but don't delude yourself that if you plan on using it to retire early, you are just another leach on the system making healthcare less affordable for everyone else.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 09:32:45 AM by EnjoyIt »

EnjoyIt

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2016, 09:30:55 AM »
Medicaid is basically a loan that can be recovered with estate recovery, so they will get their money back eventually.  The ACA is a gift for ER.  The hostility towards it amazes me since this is a board for those who want to ER.  You guys are cutting your own throats.

Exactly! How do you get people to take a stance on something even if morally wrong when it affects their own wallet.

Eric

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2016, 10:14:11 AM »
Medicaid is basically a loan that can be recovered with estate recovery, so they will get their money back eventually.  The ACA is a gift for ER.  The hostility towards it amazes me since this is a board for those who want to ER.  You guys are cutting your own throats.

Exactly! How do you get people to take a stance on something even if morally wrong when it affects their own wallet.

Morally wrong?  To have access to reasonably priced healthcare?  LOL

Shane

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2016, 10:30:35 AM »
For some reason, in the U.S. healthcare has been singled out as this thing that most people seem to agree should be paid for privately by individuals and their insurance companies. I propose that we rethink this fundamental assumption and reclassify healthcare as something we provide to everyone living in our country equally and without charge.

Right now, in the U.S. we're paying ~20% of GDP for healthcare. Part of the cost of providing healthcare in our country is billing and collecting money from a byzantine network of individuals and private insurance companies, each of which has its own little eccentricities: Medicare will only pay so much for a certain treatment but nothing for this other treatment. Medicaid will pay for this but not for that. Blue Cross/Blue Shield will pay for some things but not others...

If doctors and hospitals didn't have to bill patients and their insurance carriers, and they didn't have to worry about trying to collect overdue payments, etc., they could focus their energy and resources on providing quality healthcare to everyone, rather than worrying about the money. If implemented properly, this would lower healthcare costs overall.

Read the following two scenarios, and think about why one of them should be paid for by individuals and their private insurance carriers and why it's generally accepted in the U.S. that the other case is just provided free of charge as a benefit of being a resident:

Scenario A:

A young family living in Seattle has a 6 year old child. One day while both parents are at work and their child is being cared for by a nanny, the child is kidnapped by a pedophile from a local play park and driven across state lines to the pedophile's hideout in Idaho.

Over the next two weeks SPD and the FBI manage to track down the sinister pedophile at his lair in a bunker somewhere in rural Idaho. LEO's successfully coordinate a massive raid on the bad guy's hideout, rescue the terrified child from the clutches of the pedophile and reunite him with his grateful parents.

On the news, an SPD spokeswoman mentions that the coordinated rescue effort to save the child cost upwards of $1MM. Would any Americans expect that the young family who were the victims of this horrible crime should be held personally responsible to pay for the expenses incurred by SPD and the FBI to rescue their child? Probably not, right?

Police protection is considered a right that all residents are entitled to receive regardless of how rich or poor they are, regardless of whether they're unemployed, working, have insurance or not...

Scenario B:

A young family living in Seattle has a 6 year old child. One day while both parents are at work and their child is being cared for by a nanny, the little boy gets hit by a car driven by a drunk driver while crossing the street in a marked crosswalk.

The nanny immediately calls 911 to activate the EMS. An ambulance arrives on scene in under 3 minutes and whisks the child off to the local ER, where doctors perform emergency surgery saving the child's life. The child spends the next week in the ICU and then another week in a regular hospital room before finally being released to his loving parents and their grateful nanny.

The total costs for the ambulance, surgery and 2 week hospital stay add up to just over $1MM. How many Americans would think that this young family should be held personally responsible for paying all of their child's medical bills? No insurance? Aww, too bad they'll just have to sell their house and car and declare bankruptcy so they can pay the hospital bills. WTF! Why?


Think about it for a moment. Why is there a difference between people's attitudes about who should pay the bills in these two scenarios? Why is there this disconnect? If you get sick and have big medical bills, that's all on you as an individual to figure out how to pay for them. On the other hand, an individual or a corporation that has been the victim of a crime can receive unlimited amounts of law enforcement resources at no charge. Why?

My proposal is that we reexamine how we think about health care. People aren't getting sick or going to the hospital because they want to. It sucks worse for the people who are sick than it does for the rest of us who are usually healthy and just have to pay a little bit higher taxes to ensure that everyone who lives in our country has access to the same high quality medical care and never has to worry about how he's going to pay for it.

Shane

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2016, 10:34:30 AM »
Medicaid is basically a loan that can be recovered with estate recovery, so they will get their money back eventually.  The ACA is a gift for ER.  The hostility towards it amazes me since this is a board for those who want to ER.  You guys are cutting your own throats.
I believe that the Medicaid recovery only applies to those 55 and older. If you retire younger and went on Medicaid you may have many many years of free coverage with out any of that being paid back from your estate. Retire at 40, use Medicaid for 15 years with no recovery of that money.

In Hawaii 65 appears to be the age when you have to switch from the new "expanded" Medicaid to the regular old Medicaid that attempts to recover money paid out for long term care, etc.

packlawyer04

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2016, 10:40:38 AM »
For some reason, in the U.S. healthcare has been singled out as this thing that most people seem to agree should be paid for privately by individuals and their insurance companies. I propose that we rethink this fundamental assumption and reclassify healthcare as something we provide to everyone living in our country equally and without charge.

Right now, in the U.S. we're paying ~20% of GDP for healthcare. Part of the cost of providing healthcare in our country is billing and collecting money from a byzantine network of individuals and private insurance companies, each of which has its own little eccentricities: Medicare will only pay so much for a certain treatment but nothing for this other treatment. Medicaid will pay for this but not for that. Blue Cross/Blue Shield will pay for some things but not others...

If doctors and hospitals didn't have to bill patients and their insurance carriers, and they didn't have to worry about trying to collect overdue payments, etc., they could focus their energy and resources on providing quality healthcare to everyone, rather than worrying about the money. If implemented properly, this would lower healthcare costs overall.

Read the following two scenarios, and think about why one of them should be paid for by individuals and their private insurance carriers and why it's generally accepted in the U.S. that the other case is just provided free of charge as a benefit of being a resident:

Scenario A:

A young family living in Seattle has a 6 year old child. One day while both parents are at work and their child is being cared for by a nanny, the child is kidnapped by a pedophile from a local play park and driven across state lines to the pedophile's hideout in Idaho.

Over the next two weeks SPD and the FBI manage to track down the sinister pedophile at his lair in a bunker somewhere in rural Idaho. LEO's successfully coordinate a massive raid on the bad guy's hideout, rescue the terrified child from the clutches of the pedophile and reunite him with his grateful parents.

On the news, an SPD spokeswoman mentions that the coordinated rescue effort to save the child cost upwards of $1MM. Would any Americans expect that the young family who were the victims of this horrible crime should be held personally responsible to pay for the expenses incurred by SPD and the FBI to rescue their child? Probably not, right?

Police protection is considered a right that all residents are entitled to receive regardless of how rich or poor they are, regardless of whether they're unemployed, working, have insurance or not...

Scenario B:

A young family living in Seattle has a 6 year old child. One day while both parents are at work and their child is being cared for by a nanny, the little boy gets hit by a car driven by a drunk driver while crossing the street in a marked crosswalk.

The nanny immediately calls 911 to activate the EMS. An ambulance arrives on scene in under 3 minutes and whisks the child off to the local ER, where doctors perform emergency surgery saving the child's life. The child spends the next week in the ICU and then another week in a regular hospital room before finally being released to his loving parents and their grateful nanny.

The total costs for the ambulance, surgery and 2 week hospital stay add up to just over $1MM. How many Americans would think that this young family should be held personally responsible for paying all of their child's medical bills? No insurance? Aww, too bad they'll just have to sell their house and car and declare bankruptcy so they can pay the hospital bills. WTF! Why?


Think about it for a moment. Why is there a difference between people's attitudes about who should pay the bills in these two scenarios? Why is there this disconnect? If you get sick and have big medical bills, that's all on you as an individual to figure out how to pay for them. On the other hand, an individual or a corporation that has been the victim of a crime can receive unlimited amounts of law enforcement resources at no charge. Why?

My proposal is that we reexamine how we think about health care. People aren't getting sick or going to the hospital because they want to. It sucks worse for the people who are sick than it does for the rest of us who are usually healthy and just have to pay a little bit higher taxes to ensure that everyone who lives in our country has access to the same high quality medical care and never has to worry about how he's going to pay for it.

I am assuming you are wanting single payer type system. Basically medicare for all. Most doctors are cutting medicare if they can.  Payout is too low.

You can say doctor's can then not worry about the money but it is a business. It might be healthcare to you but to the doctors, nurses and receptionist at your doctor's office, they are in it to make money.

Doctor's also have to go to school for a ridiculous number of years and many come out with $250K-300K in student loans. They are going to want to get paid for taking on that debt and spending all of their 20s and early 30s either in school or working 70 hours a week in a residency for $40K a year.

I don't know if there is one single answer to the problem.  I do know that simply changing how you pay for it does not change the fact health care costs themselves are going up. No matter who pays for it, individual, insurance, government, rising health care costs will bankrupt whomever is paying.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2016, 11:09:55 AM »
Medicaid is basically a loan that can be recovered with estate recovery, so they will get their money back eventually.  The ACA is a gift for ER.  The hostility towards it amazes me since this is a board for those who want to ER.  You guys are cutting your own throats.

Exactly! How do you get people to take a stance on something even if morally wrong when it affects their own wallet.

Morally wrong?  To have access to reasonably priced healthcare?  LOL

Morally wrong to choose to not work and have others pay your healthcare for you.  You are a parasite on the system causing the cost of health insurance to be higher for everyone else.

BTW, cost of healthcare has gone up for the middle class that don't qualify for subsidies making it even harder for them to retire.  But hey, at least you get to sit on your couch and not work.  Good for you.

forummm

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Re: Will ObamaCare Make Early Retirement More Difficult?
« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2016, 11:15:38 AM »
If you do that... does the subsidy not still apply when you file taxes?  (Not trying to start a political firestorm again... trying to understand how it works.)

Nope. If you buy direct from any insurance company, or from a company or independant agent, you will not get any subsidy. To get the subsidy when you file, you have to buy the policy through either the Federal exchange or your state's exchange (if your state has one). And, I'm pretty sure, it has the be a Silver policy.

Not quite. If you buy outside of the official federal (healthcare.gov) or state (e.g. Covered California--but go through healthcare.gov to make sure you get the official site and not some impostor company's site) marketplace, then you cannot get cost sharing reductions at all. You also cannot get the advance premium tax credit in advance. You can get the tax credit when you file your taxes.

You can only get the cost sharing subsidies if you buy a silver plan (and on the official marketplace)