Author Topic: Why Live Out West?  (Read 33816 times)

oldtoyota

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Why Live Out West?
« on: March 01, 2014, 11:51:42 PM »
I was looking at a drought map in The Economist and wondering why people would choose to live so far from water. According to The Economist, it sounds like the water situation won't get better.

It *could* get better if people stopped wasting water, but that has not happened yet.


shuffler

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 12:22:25 AM »
Out West?  We've got lots of water in the PNW.

What is an example of a place that is far from water?

MayDay

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 05:48:22 AM »
Out West?  We've got lots of water in the PNW.

What is an example of a place that is far from water?

Far from potable water. Most of CA is in a major drought.

loki

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 07:32:12 AM »
It takes a lot of money, knowledge, or determination to move a significant distance. Most people aren't there because they chose to be; they're there because they were born there.

jscott2135

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 08:00:54 AM »
I live in the PNW, water isn't an issue for us.  But I'd never want to live somewhere far from water myself.

SnackDog

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 08:19:26 AM »
We are thankful for the droughts, floods, landslides, earthquakes, and wildfires, which, along with shocking taxes, high crime, pollution, poor schools, disastrous politics, and sky high cost of living combine to keep the richest and most popular state in the country from being completely overrun by Americans and others.

Tyler

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 08:25:34 AM »
Drought and earthquakes out west. Hurricanes and flooding out east. Tornados and blazing summers in the south. Blizzards and hypothermia in the north.

One can always find a scary story to justify their own fears.

horsepoor

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 08:28:59 AM »
The intermountain west is pretty dry, but it's also much less densely populated than anywhere back east.  We have lots of forest and rangeland that isn't irrigated, and at least for Idaho, I don't see water restrictions becoming a huge issue, though fewer golf-course lawns would be nice.  Personally, I can't understand why anyone would want to live back east.  I start getting hives after a few days with the lack of mountains and open space.  One adjacent county here is bigger than the state of Massachusetts and has a population of about 10,000.

Oh, and we have free public land recreation, low property taxes, and cheap natural gas instead of heating oil.

NinetyFour

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 08:34:44 AM »
I agree with Old Toyota that it is a wonder why folks will choose to live in places that currently have water shortages--soon to become water crises.

Having said that, I live in the southwest, but in a town with (so far) plentiful water.  We are at the southern end of the Rockies, and after a winter with a decent amount of snowfall, the snowmelt provideth.

arebelspy

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 09:38:20 AM »
Water crises is on your mind right now.

When a big earthquake happens in the PNW or Cali people will say "I wonder why people choose to live in places that have earthquakes."

Or giant winter storms.

Or hurricanes.

Or whatever.

There's hazards and problems everywhere.  If there were a "perfect" area, everyone would move there, and then it wouldn't be perfect, it'd be overcrowded.

Lack of water is a big issue.  It will become more of one, no doubt. But it is just one issue, and it often occurs in certain areas that may not have other issues.
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swiper

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 09:46:37 AM »

There's hazards and problems everywhere.  If there were a "perfect" area, everyone would move there, and then it wouldn't be perfect, it'd be overcrowded.


Besides, even a perfect area can fall victim to the POLAR VORTEX. There is no escape!

arebelspy

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2014, 09:56:51 AM »
Besides, even a perfect area can fall victim to the POLAR VORTEX. There is no escape!

Oh geez.

This thread has jumped the sharknado.  ;)
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Undecided

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2014, 10:34:29 AM »
As a NY native who moved west at the close of the twentieth century, after having lived in the southeast and southwest as well, my answer is "it speaks to me."

rocklebock

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2014, 10:34:52 AM »
I grew up on the West Coast, and we all kind of pitied people who had the misfortune to live anywhere else. But we were glad they chose to stay there, rather than coming out and making things more crowded and expensive.

When I moved to the Midwest and told people I was from the West Coast, they would go on and on about fires and droughts and wonder why anyone would live there. Many sweeping statements about how "no one should live in Southern California because it's a desert." Which it's not, BTW.

Then I moved back to the West Coast and people went on and on about how I must be so glad to have escaped the horrible weather, tornados, angst-inducing vast flatness everywhere, and rude people. (For the record, I like the Midwest a lot, especially the people)

Horsepoor - I'm glad I'm not the only one. Last time I went back to visit Chicago, I actually started panicking a little when I saw how flat everything was. First time I left the West Coast, I honestly couldn't figure how people could geographically orient themselves without having mountains around.

Kind of surprised to see people in the PNW saying we don't have a water problem. I know it strains credulity because it rains all the goddamn time here. But climate change is affecting our water supply: http://cses.washington.edu/cig/pnwc/pnwwater.shtml - The drier parts of our region already experience water shortages.

Undecided

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2014, 10:45:04 AM »

Kind of surprised to see people in the PNW saying we don't have a water problem. I know it strains credulity because it rains all the goddamn time here. But climate change is affecting our water supply: http://cses.washington.edu/cig/pnwc/pnwwater.shtml - The drier parts of our region already experience water shortages.

Yes, well, perhaps my emphasis will clue you in. I guess it's one region when you want the water.

Seriously, as a former CA resident who now lives much closer to the water in the PNW, but still where it needs to be handled carefully, I'm impressed by how much more seriously most people treat water issues here.

Eric

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2014, 11:12:59 AM »
I believe that the vast majority of the water used out West is for farming.  The water that the general population uses is a drop in the bucket (pun intended) compared to agricultural use.  And that food is eaten throughout the country.  So if you're really concerned, maybe stop buying produce from California, Arizona, or Texas? 

Jamesqf

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2014, 11:31:57 AM »
I was looking at a drought map in The Economist and wondering why people would choose to live so far from water.

Far from water?  This is (relatively speaking) my back yard.

No Name Guy

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2014, 11:42:34 AM »
Ha, ha....everyone so far has forgotten the volcano's.  Remember, we had one lose her top back on May 18, 1980.  That said, so long as you aren't foolish enough to choose to live in a lahar path, or right next to the mountain where you'll get blasted or covered in ash, they aren't really a danger on the personal level.

As far as fires:  Yeah, so what - again, if you have a cedar shake house in a brush choked slot canyon, you may as well kiss your house good bye WHEN the fire starts....not IF there is a fire, but when.  A home constructed of fire resistant material (say metal roof, with a brick or stone exterior) with defensible space on defensible terrain OTOH will do just fine.  And I'll add.....fire is natural and healthy for the forest.  The Powers That Be are finally realizing the foolishness of massive suppression of previous years.  It just goes to show the hubris of man thinking we can control nature.

Part of the water problem in the "west" is that its caused by policy.  When you subsidize things, you get more of them.  We taxpayers ponied up for below cost water to various interests - so what you get (as an example) is cotton being grown on irrigated land in the flipping desert of Arizona with subsidized water, instead of being grown in Georgia under natural rain.  Or my personally witnessed peve - alfalfa being grown in the high desert NE of Los Angles (near Edwards AFB) - 20-30 MPH winds, 95 degrees out, 2 in the afternoon and there went the massive sprinklers on those fields - click, click, click.  I wonder what the productivity of those fields was in terms of crops grown per unit of (below cost) water.  Of course, in reality there's plenty of water - if you stop doing stupid things with it, like growing cotton or alfalfa in the desert.

That said....I'll take the wet side of the mountains of the PNW over any other area of the country (call it from Bellingham in the north to Ashland Oregon in the south).  The potential issues - earthquakes and volcano's, are easily mitigated by cheap construction improvements (foundation straps, strapping down water heaters, etc) and not choosing to live in the path of lahar destruction.  There are no forest fires to speak of on the wet side.  The climate is mild - rarely snows in the winter, and summers aren't hot enough to need A/C (few homes here have central air). 

The hazards in other parts of the country are more difficult to deal with with easy fixes - pretty much anything less than a concrete bunker will be destroyed by a tornado, for example.  That rules out anything east of Denver for me.  The south is awfully hot and humid - not my cup o tea.  The NE has brutally cold winters - no thanks.  Hurricanes - yeah....I'll pass.

oldtoyota

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2014, 07:52:10 PM »
Out West?  We've got lots of water in the PNW.

What is an example of a place that is far from water?

According to The Economist, most of the West is in a drought. CA, TX, CO, etc, etc.

Here is the article:
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21596955-drought-forcing-westerners-consider-wasting-less-water-drying-west

oldtoyota

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2014, 07:54:31 PM »
Drought and earthquakes out west. Hurricanes and flooding out east. Tornados and blazing summers in the south. Blizzards and hypothermia in the north.

One can always find a scary story to justify their own fears.

Hypothermia??

Yeah. That is a fairly common forum reaction, I find. The "you have fears" reaction. I am not fearful.

The drought is bad and there's a water problem. This is not fear. It's a fact.

A tornado is bad, but you often know it's coming and can seek shelter. A tornado doesn't tend to last a long time. With hurricanes, one usually has a lot of notice and can prepare.

You wait out the storm, and the problem goes away.

Lack of water is not the same situation as a natural disaster. A snow storm--LOL--is definitely not the same kind of problem as a lack of water. A snow storm is annoying but rarely does long-term damage and is not needed to grow crops.

It's interesting that the same type of folks who budget down to the penny think the water issue is overblown. LOL. Looking ahead applies to retirement and stocks but not to the wider world??



« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 08:06:42 PM by oldtoyota »

Tyler

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2014, 09:27:52 PM »
Peace. You're free to live wherever you like for whatever reason you choose.

dcheesi

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2014, 08:50:43 AM »
The reason people choose to live out West in dry climates is simple: people like dry climates! More sunny days, less rain, lower humidity, etc.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2014, 09:05:25 AM »
I have lived in the PNW, SO Cal and mostly the Artic Midwest. And as many have said we all have our issues. I have had snow on the ground since Nov. Alot of people I know moved from the Midwest to So. Cal because of Sinus issues. While I think they all have there good and bad if I had my way and hopefully someday I will , I will head to NC, CO, TX in that order. Its a big country out there that should meet anyone's desires. At that time though there will be alot more in the decision make. Like taxes just to name one.  So for now snow and tornado's will have to do over fires, earthquakes and water shortages. 

Psychstache

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2014, 09:18:58 AM »
Out West?  We've got lots of water in the PNW.

What is an example of a place that is far from water?

According to The Economist, most of the West is in a drought. CA, TX, CO, etc, etc.

Here is the article:
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21596955-drought-forcing-westerners-consider-wasting-less-water-drying-west

Ok, I know I am terrible at geography, but when did the great republic of Texas become part of the West?  =P

jscott2135

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2014, 09:54:08 AM »
I guess when I think of out west, I think of states on the West Coast.  Yeah Cali has its issues for sure.  But it also has amazing weather most of the time and a bunch of benefits to.  I've lived in the midwest, the east, the PNW and I honestly don't know why anyone would want to live anywhere but the PNW.  But as another poster said, I'm glad they do because I prefer not to share :)  AND as another poster also clued in on, here in the PNW where we don't have as many water issues as other areas, we also seem to really highly value our natural resources more than other parts of the country and place a big focus on conservation, not just during drought times but ALL the time.  Its nice to be surrounded with like minded folks out west that appreciate natural resources and don't deplete them unnecessarily (This is obviously a generalization, we have plenty of wasteful asshats here too).  Many people are born here and its not a choice, but for me it was and I chose to come back because

decent cost of living
great public transportation
close to Portland - so super duper bike friendly
amazing diversity and appreciation thereof
I wake up to the coastal range in my back yard and a view of Mt Hood from my front
My kids have easy access to the Willamette, the Columbia, The Ocean, the Cascades, and an unbelievable plethora or hiking and biking trails
an area where sustainability and conservation is a shared objective
easy access to farmers markets, organic meat raised on farms that I can visit, and weather that is conducive to a bountiful garden in my back yard
And as I mentioned I'm out west and def not far from water...I think in the long run, as quickly as weather patterns are changing and we overpopulate, that water is going to become an issue in most places, not just the western part of the US!

ASquared

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2014, 10:33:02 AM »
I am thrilled that the West still seems to be a secret.  Full of insanely beautiful, amazing places that are (for the most part - nothing like the East coast) not overcrowded.  Generally milder weather. Lots of sun.  Tons of outdoor recreation, often "from home" instead of driving hours to "get out".

I live in Southern CA.  It's amazing to go outside every day, and enjoy it.  Tons of outdoor stuff.  Being by the ocean is tops.  I garden year round.  Farmer's markets year round, at least one every day of the week that is near me.  It's a beautiful lifestyle.  And to all the people that complain about the expense - this area (like most others!) can be as cheap or as expensive as you make it. 

I've also lived in Arizona for many years, again - beautiful natural outdoor recreation, not overcrowded, abundance of sun.

I've also lived in Idaho - beautiful for different reasons but still LOVE the West.

Jamesqf

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2014, 10:42:54 AM »
According to The Economist, most of the West is in a drought. CA, TX, CO, etc, etc.

And it was only about a decade ago that much of the southeast was in a drought - in the same time frame, IIRC, that we were getting well above average precipitation hereabouts.   (Which is northern Nevada and the adjacent parts of the Sierra Nevada.

It should be noted that 'Out West' covers a lot of territory (even though most of Texas is not geographically or culturally part of it), and that territory is quite diverse.  Even if we limit the discussion to California, average annual precipitation runs from under 5 inches in the Mojave to over 100 inches in places along the northern 'Redwood Coast': http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/pcpn/ca.gif  Indeed, Washington's Olympic Penninsula - which is about as far 'Out West' as you can get in the continental US - gets the most precipitation: http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/pcpn/us_precip.gif

As to people living 'far from water', do you think any major city in the East could survive on local water?  Look at how New York City, for one example, draws most of its water supply from far upstate.  If you look at western settlement patterns, people tend to live where there is water*.  Of course overpopulation later strains those resources, but that's a global problem, only differing on which local resource is most limited.


*Except for a few places whose settlement was driven by various degrees of insanity.  The prime instance of this is probably Las Vegas, which arguably wouldn't have more than a few thousand people if it weren't for other states' insane attitudes towards gambling.


mbl

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2014, 12:43:00 PM »
  Personally, I can't understand why anyone would want to live back east.  I start getting hives after a few days with the lack of mountains and open space. 
When you say back east which of the 17 states are you referring to? 
I suspect that you need a geography lesson if you don't think there are mountains and open space on the east coast.
Have you ever been to the Adirondacks or Green Mountains?  How about the Smoky Mountains?  Open space? Come here to upstate New York if you'd like to see open space with a view.
Personal preference is fine, but please use factual information.

P.S.  Would love to compare the pasture lands that we use here for our horses compared to what you use out west.  Also the price of hay and feed.  Just curious.


No Name Guy

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2014, 01:27:21 PM »
I find it funny.....east coast folks think Kansas is "out west" and Indiana is the "mid west".  Comes from a NY / DC centric view of the world I suppose.  Heck, some of those states "back east" are smaller than COUNTIES here in Washington - can my county get 2 Senators?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhode_island
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snohomish_County,_Washington
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whatcom_County,_Washington

From the left coast, Kansas is the "middle" and Indiana and Ohio are the "mid east".  Colorado is the mid west....especially since lots of it is on the 'wrong' side of the divide and drains to the Atlantic.  ;-)

Oh....and there are no real mountains "back east".  None of them are liable to blow up and the tallest ones (either in absolute height or prominence) would only qualify as foot hills in the Cascades, Sierra or Rockies. 
High points list:
http://www.peakbagger.com/list.aspx?lid=12004
All the ones over 10k have at least parts that drain to the Pacific.

Tongue in cheek and facts linked on the puny States and "mountains" "back east".

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2014, 01:38:35 PM »
wow, people are very defensive about their part of the country :)

growing up in Minnesota, I always thought it was pretty much perfect in the "safe from natural disasters" sense... deadly tornadoes are pretty rare, there can be flooding but it is usually minor compared to many other flood-prone areas (at least in the Twin Cities), and we don't really get anything else. as an adult I have realized that many people would consider every MN winter to be a natural disaster, which is probably why it's not as populated as it otherwise would be :)

nawhite

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2014, 02:04:28 PM »
Many sweeping statements about how "no one should live in Southern California because it's a desert." Which it's not, BTW.

I live in Colorado and I'll go ahead and say it: No one should live in Southern California (or at least not more than the ~400,000 people that the Los Angeles River could support if people were conservation minded) because its a desert. (And way fewer people should live in AZ, NW, Colorado front range, WY, West Texas).

LA gets water from sources over 400 miles away. They use more electricity on pumping water from one river basin to another than some states use for everything else. LA needed water so badly they sued the State of Arizona (a city sued a different state, yes) to try to get Arizona's share of the Colorado river.

Water is a ridiculously scarce resource in the American West (Kansas to California). The Bureau of Reclamation and the Army Corps of Engineers have let us live out here so far but climate change and reservoirs silting up (Lake Mead now holds 80% of what it did when it was built) make it a very tenuous hold we have out here.

gillstone

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2014, 04:07:35 PM »
Ha, ha....everyone so far has forgotten the volcano's.  Remember, we had one lose her top back on May 18, 1980.  That said, so long as you aren't foolish enough to choose to live in a lahar path, or right next to the mountain where you'll get blasted or covered in ash, they aren't really a danger on the personal level.

HA! You call that a volcano! I live 120 miles from the largest active volcano in the world.  When Yellowstone goes we'll all just get in our Pompeii poses in advance of the raining fire for when we get dug out in a millenium.

That being said, I would rather live near the world's largest active volcano that move back to southern California.

rocklebock

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2014, 04:43:19 PM »
Ha, ha....everyone so far has forgotten the volcano's.  Remember, we had one lose her top back on May 18, 1980.  That said, so long as you aren't foolish enough to choose to live in a lahar path, or right next to the mountain where you'll get blasted or covered in ash, they aren't really a danger on the personal level.

HA! You call that a volcano! I live 120 miles from the largest active volcano in the world.  When Yellowstone goes we'll all just get in our Pompeii poses in advance of the raining fire for when we get dug out in a millenium.

Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but now I have to add that I live six blocks from a volcano. It's been dormant for 300,000 years, but YOU NEVER KNOW.

horsepoor

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2014, 06:26:58 PM »
  Personally, I can't understand why anyone would want to live back east.  I start getting hives after a few days with the lack of mountains and open space. 
When you say back east which of the 17 states are you referring to? 
I suspect that you need a geography lesson if you don't think there are mountains and open space on the east coast.
Have you ever been to the Adirondacks or Green Mountains?  How about the Smoky Mountains?  Open space? Come here to upstate New York if you'd like to see open space with a view.
Personal preference is fine, but please use factual information.

P.S.  Would love to compare the pasture lands that we use here for our horses compared to what you use out west.  Also the price of hay and feed.  Just curious.


Your state has over 32 million acres of public land to roam on?  http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/western-states-data-public-land.htm

When I've been back east, it's been mostly Florida and North Carolina.  There is open space, but most preserves/wildlife refuges and so on I've seen are a few thousand acres, which is chump change around here.  It is simple math to see that the population density is higher. I like the long stretches of desolation. Mt. Mitchell is 6,600 feet, only 6,000 feet lower than Mt. Borah.  If you like it, that is fine.  I was just stating that I have not enjoyed my visits to that side of the country; not sure why you care and feel the need to give me a geography lesson.

I pay $225/month for full care board, which includes high quality grass or alfalfa as needed, daily turnout and blanketing, plus any other odd care as needed.  I think hay runs about $200 per ton, but I don't buy it myself, so it's not something I track. 

TomTX

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2014, 06:58:23 PM »
Ha, ha....everyone so far has forgotten the volcano's.  Remember, we had one lose her top back on May 18, 1980.  That said, so long as you aren't foolish enough to choose to live in a lahar path, or right next to the mountain where you'll get blasted or covered in ash, they aren't really a danger on the personal level.

HA! You call that a volcano! I live 120 miles from the largest active volcano in the world.  When Yellowstone goes we'll all just get in our Pompeii poses in advance of the raining fire for when we get dug out in a millenium.

Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but now I have to add that I live six blocks from a volcano. It's been dormant for 300,000 years, but YOU NEVER KNOW.

I went dancing on multiple active volcanoes when I was in Hawaii :D Including Mauna Loa - the true largest active volcano in the world. 56,000 feet high.


...counting from the sea floor, which is where the bottom of the volcano is.

greaper007

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2014, 09:04:06 PM »
I live in Denver, but I grew up in Cleveland.   My entire family moved here, so my wife and I decided to follow them.    Business is booming in the west, our house just goes up year after year, and unlike my crazy neighbors I don't water my lawn and we only use 20 gallons of water per person per day.

But...

Beyond the weather, I don't understand why more people and businesses don't flock to the rust belt.   There's a reason it was one of the richest areas of the country during the 20th century.    Tons of water, access to easy shipping, lots of agriculture and plenty of things like good schools that turn out engineers by the boatload.    And the weather in the midwest doesn't lend itself to the same natural disasters that the rest of the country face.   

A bad winter storm kills a few old people that decided to shovel their driveway and had a heart attack.   A hurricane, wildfire, landslide, tornado levels entire towns and takes years to crawl out from.   I saw it firsthand when I lived in Florida for a few years.

I don't know, cold weather (and hot weather for that matter) doesn't really bother me that much.   I keep my thermostat at 58 or so in the winter and try to never use my ac.    And if Cleveland wasn't just so damn depressing and racist I'd wouldn't mind moving back there.   

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2014, 09:26:09 PM »
The book Cadillac Desert, and its accompanying PBS series, are excellent and in-depth explicationts of American water development out west, and that's as someone who only lived out west (San Diego) for a year. Growing up in the Midwest, I ocassionally heard comments about how unnatural settlements were out west, and how they wanted to come for our water. This while I found material about water conservation in our science books rather odd, as it's not nearly as pressing a need in the Great Lakes watershed. But California buys a lot more textbooks.

One of the big things that isn't obvious is how much water out west comes from underground aquifers rather than rain-fed rivers. Big western aquifers, like those under the California's Central Valley and the Ogalala in former Dust Bowl region, aren't renewable resources, and they're being used up at a rapid pace.

Having read Cadillac Desert, it doesn't seem to me that the population centers out west are particularly likely to ever run out of water— the urban land there is too valuable, since people so enjoy the climate there. It's agriculture, which is extremely water-intensive and not the highest-margin industry, that'll likely face the biggest challenges out west, especially as aquifers run dry.

Having lived out west and now living in NYC, I definitely miss the wiiiide open spaces for outdoor recreation. There are some beautiful natural places, even within bike or public transit distance of NYC, but it's still not the same here. Inland New England is different, with cute little mountains with bunches of cute little towns tucked in between— kinda a European feel.  The Midwest, where much of the countryside is flat and well-watered, also lacks mountains to climb.

PS: here's what the EPA says about what climate change will do to precipitation:

With downtown LA at 15" of rain per year presently, a lot more of SoCal could easily tip into the official definition of a desert with 10" of rain in our lifetimes. Even so, the expenditure of energy to haul water to that city is easily offset by the exceptionally mild climate which means that barely any heating and cooling is necessary.

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2014, 11:32:34 PM »
Beyond the weather, I don't understand why more people and businesses don't flock to the rust belt. 

Well, I don't understand why so many people back there are such wussies about the weather.  Having decently cold winters is one of the few things I really miss from growing up in upstate New York (along with fall colors and making maple syrup in the spring).

As for LA and other cities that draw their water supply from considerable distances...  Pot, meet kettle :-)  Take a look at the New York City water system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_water_supply_system

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2014, 12:09:48 AM »
I'm pretty sure that if water ever really becomes scarce, the coastal cities will benefit from desalination.  It's cost prohibitive now, but combine higher prices with improved technologies (including solar energy) and we have a winner.

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2014, 06:47:36 AM »
  Personally, I can't understand why anyone would want to live back east.  I start getting hives after a few days with the lack of mountains and open space. 
When you say back east which of the 17 states are you referring to? 
I suspect that you need a geography lesson if you don't think there are mountains and open space on the east coast.
Have you ever been to the Adirondacks or Green Mountains?  How about the Smoky Mountains?  Open space? Come here to upstate New York if you'd like to see open space with a view.
Personal preference is fine, but please use factual information.

P.S.  Would love to compare the pasture lands that we use here for our horses compared to what you use out west.  Also the price of hay and feed.  Just curious.


Your state has over 32 million acres of public land to roam on?  http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/western-states-data-public-land.htm

When I've been back east, it's been mostly Florida and North Carolina.  There is open space, but most preserves/wildlife refuges and so on I've seen are a few thousand acres, which is chump change around here

I wasn't saying there is a comparison in size, of course not.  I've lived out West and clearly understand that.  It is vast compared to the open spaces and mountains back east.  But, we do have open spaces and mountains.   I never stated that the open spaces were larger or that the mountains were higher....you shifted to that.  Just sayng that they do exist here and are beautiful, lush and pristine.   From your statements, you've obviously never experienced this in person(think New England/New York Adirondack region) but might like and appreciate this.

 I have not enjoyed my visits to that side of the country; not sure why you care and feel the need to give me a geography lesson.
You made a statement and I responded with a point based on fact.  Certainly I respect that you have your own opinion, though that experience is limited to a small portion of the east coast.  I was indicating that there are many other states and regions that you haven't seen that are indeed vast and wide open. 

I pay $225/month for full care board, which includes high quality grass or alfalfa as needed, daily turnout and blanketing, plus any other odd care as needed.  I think hay runs about $200 per ton, but I don't buy it myself, so it's not something I track.

  Our horses are out 24/7 and no blankets.  That's just what I do but others do a variety of care as you know.  It varies by person and horse.  My mare  doesn't require or do well in a stall.  Do they feed square or round bales?  What opportunity for pasture feeding?

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2014, 07:24:52 AM »
The book Cadillac Desert, and its accompanying PBS series, are excellent and in-depth explicationts of American water development out west, and that's as someone who only lived out west (San Diego) for a year. Growing up in the Midwest, I ocassionally heard comments about how unnatural settlements were out west, and how they wanted to come for our water. This while I found material about water conservation in our science books rather odd, as it's not nearly as pressing a need in the Great Lakes watershed. But California buys a lot more textbooks.

One of the big things that isn't obvious is how much water out west comes from underground aquifers rather than rain-fed rivers. Big western aquifers, like those under the California's Central Valley and the Ogalala in former Dust Bowl region, aren't renewable resources, and they're being used up at a rapid pace.

sounds like a super interesting book and series, I'm gonna have to check that out!

on a somewhat related note (in that it relates to both southern California, and humans trying to bend nature to their will), "Control of Nature" by John McPhee is a great book if you are interested in that kind of thing. it's basically 3 essays, one about the Army Corps of Engineers and their structures that prevent the Mississippi from avulsing into the Atchafalaya; one about a town in Iceland and its efforts to hold back lava from an erupting volcano that threatened to overtake the town; and one about LA and the fact that people keep building and purchasing homes that are KNOWN to be at a high risk for destruction by deadly mudslides.

I am just fascinated by this shit!

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2014, 07:28:40 AM »
the Army Corps of Engineers and their structures that prevent the Mississippi from avulsing into the Atchafalaya

I had to look this up, and ran across this neat map:
http://the-earth-story.com/post/65130165427/mississippi-map
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rocksinmyhead

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2014, 07:48:55 AM »
the Army Corps of Engineers and their structures that prevent the Mississippi from avulsing into the Atchafalaya

I had to look this up, and ran across this neat map:
http://the-earth-story.com/post/65130165427/mississippi-map

oh man!!! now I want a copy of that to hang in my house. I love nerd art.

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2014, 09:12:13 AM »
The problem isn't drinking water. California has plenty of water for the humans and building desalination plants would give expensive (2-4x) water but it is doable.   The problem is that 80% of the water is for agriculture and they are going to struggle with more expensive water

I expect just like any other resource crisis, people will adapt. There is a lot of room for reducing water usage (at the cost of money).  Or you can just talk to Monsanto into whipping up some plants that like to grow in salt water:)


I'm pretty sure that if water ever really becomes scarce, the coastal cities will benefit from desalination.  It's cost prohibitive now, but combine higher prices with improved technologies (including solar energy) and we have a winner.

Yes. Desalination is increasingly the norm in Israel, and I know Singapore recycles waste water, including urine, to make drinking water.

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2014, 09:24:15 AM »
A second vote for Cadillac Desert, I just finished reading it. It certainly is argued the way a conspiracy theorist would argue (making some connections that aren't quite there to make or accentuate a point), but it does have some really good historical information about how we got where we are and some of the problems we will likely see in the future.

I'm pretty sure that if water ever really becomes scarce, the coastal cities will benefit from desalination.  It's cost prohibitive now, but combine higher prices with improved technologies (including solar energy) and we have a winner.

Yes. Desalination is increasingly the norm in Israel, and I know Singapore recycles waste water, including urine, to make drinking water.

Desalination is actually used in a number of places in the US, just usually not for seawater (though there are a few). There are numerous aquifers which are just the slightest bit too salty to drink but much less salty than the ocean, so we desalinate the aquifer water because it is much less expensive.

Many US cities also use "recycled water" (water purified from waste water) but none that I know certify it for human consumption. Usually it is treated just the same and just as safe as potable water, US people just have an aversion to "recycled waste water" so it gets sold separately. Generally it is resold at a lower rate than potable water to golf courses and other major irrigators.

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2014, 09:38:29 AM »
I live in St. John's, Newfoundland. ALL of you are in "the west".

Also, 10 feet of snow and 60 inches of rain a year. Feel free to take some of our water.

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2014, 10:43:20 AM »
I live in St. John's, Newfoundland. ALL of you are in "the west".

Also, 10 feet of snow and 60 inches of rain a year. Feel free to take some of our water.

Well there is always https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAWAPA if you feel that way.

NAWAPA was a half Trillion Dollar (same cost as the US highway system) plan to have Canada sell water and power to the US. It included awesome things like build a dike in Hudson bay to make James bay fresh water. Turning the entire Rocky Mountain Trench into the worlds largest reservoir (about 16 times more water capacity than Lake Mead behind the Hoover Dam, North America's current largest reservoir). Building canals to add water to the Great Lakes and Mississippi so that you could then ship from St Louis to NYC without hitting the Atlantic. Doubling the flow over Niagara Falls for more power generation. Building canals to connect the Columbia River, the Missouri River and the Colorado River. Pumping enough water into the Colorado to provide MEXICO (yes transporting water from as far away as Alaska to Mexico) with enough water to expand irrigation 7 times more than the previous largest water reclamation project in the history of the world.

Yeah, don't offer your water too freely, the plans for how to transport it have already been made.

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2014, 12:28:15 PM »
Or you can just talk to Monsanto into whipping up some plants that like to grow in salt water:)

Nature beat them to it.  Many types of seaweed are quite edible, and traditionally eaten by coastal cultures.  And there is a LOT of kelp off the west coast.

Dicey

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2014, 02:56:53 PM »
After reading the question and all the comments and thinking a lot about the whole subject, my answer is:

Because.


Gerard

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Re: Why Live Out West?
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2014, 05:10:14 PM »
Yeah, don't offer your water too freely, the plans for how to transport it have already been made.

Some people up here do worry about what happens when water gets (even more) commodified, as things dry up and we start to look like the new Iraq (valuable resource, easy to invade). With any luck, local water projects (e.g., desalination) will make more sense. I mean, it's not like anybody responded to our glut of oil with plans to build a huge pipeline to the-- oh, shit.

 

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