Why it's Important to be Financially Independent

[wageslave23]

We just had a coworker who is under credentialed and under experienced promoted to manager. At the time, I thought who cares, it's not my company - I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. Well, fast forward a few months and she has set up all these tasks with deadlines and micromanaging the shit out of everything. She just had a company wide meeting berating everyone, new employees who are still learning and experienced employees who are Rockstar employees in all measurable variables except these arbitrary micromanaging tasks. Needless to say, the new employees are overwhelmed by the workload and experienced employees are pissed that they are being treated like they work at McDonald's. Luckily I'm FI and will be monitoring the situation carefully to see if it eventually blows over. But if it gets worse or if veteran employees start leaving putting the company in a tough spot with the remaining employees, I will be jumping ship too which will only make the landslide for the company worse. Any younger MMMers reading this - your lack of FI or at least FU money is truly a hair on fire emergency.  I used to not mind my job, but things can change quickly and this is just one example. Get your FU money ASAP, you never know when you will need it.

[mistymoney]

I used to not mind my job, but things can change quickly and this is just one example. Get your FU money ASAP, you never know when you will need it.

This is so true. Never be overly complacent. A new boss, new owner or CEO, even a new coworker can wreak havoc on a formerly enjoyable job.

I'm also in the thick of similar disgruntlements, wageslave. I'm not quite FI, but close enough that if I quit and the market is relatively average for a few years, I'd be fine. If push comes to shove, I will take the euphemistic sabatical and see where I end up. I am old enough that new employment (particularly of a comparable level) and without a current job while searching might not be in the cards for me. So I am proceeding judiciously, but I do not feel powerless by any means, which is helpful. Not only for planning, but for the mental health aspect.

I can reframe the current situation as - how long can I put up with this, rather than feeling trapped.

[rothwem]

Hang on, I thought it was important to be FI so you could buy a Camry SE instead of an LE to flex on the haters?

:D

</threadspillover>

But yeah, I tend to agree that its good to be FI in the event that you find yourself in a toxic work environment.  I would advise not heading for the hills immediately though, I think I'd use my FI status to try to influence/train the incompetent manager to make the place a bit more bearable. 

[wageslave23]

I used to not mind my job, but things can change quickly and this is just one example. Get your FU money ASAP, you never know when you will need it.

This is so true. Never be overly complacent. A new boss, new owner or CEO, even a new coworker can wreak havoc on a formerly enjoyable job.

I'm also in the thick of similar disgruntlements, wageslave. I'm not quite FI, but close enough that if I quit and the market is relatively average for a few years, I'd be fine. If push comes to shove, I will take the euphemistic sabatical and see where I end up. I am old enough that new employment (particularly of a comparable level) and without a current job while searching might not be in the cards for me. So I am proceeding judiciously, but I do not feel powerless by any means, which is helpful. Not only for planning, but for the mental health aspect.

I can reframe the current situation as - how long can I put up with this, rather than feeling trapped.

At least you know the end is near. And don't have 10+ yrs left.

[wageslave23]

Hang on, I thought it was important to be FI so you could buy a Camry SE instead of an LE to flex on the haters?

:D

</threadspillover>

But yeah, I tend to agree that its good to be FI in the event that you find yourself in a toxic work environment.  I would advise not heading for the hills immediately though, I think I'd use my FI status to try to influence/train the incompetent manager to make the place a bit more bearable.

Lol, that thread was largely misunderstood.  Im the epitome of anti flexing

[Freedomin5]

Yup. Same here. If you don’t care about losing your job, it also makes you braver to speak up about the injustices and to defend others.

Also, it doesn’t stress you as much of the economy or the company isn’t doing well.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I used to not mind my job, but things can change quickly and this is just one example. Get your FU money ASAP, you never know when you will need it.

This is so true. Never be overly complacent. A new boss, new owner or CEO, even a new coworker can wreak havoc on a formerly enjoyable job.

I'm also in the thick of similar disgruntlements, wageslave. I'm not quite FI, but close enough that if I quit and the market is relatively average for a few years, I'd be fine. If push comes to shove, I will take the euphemistic sabatical and see where I end up. I am old enough that new employment (particularly of a comparable level) and without a current job while searching might not be in the cards for me. So I am proceeding judiciously, but I do not feel powerless by any means, which is helpful. Not only for planning, but for the mental health aspect.

I can reframe the current situation as - how long can I put up with this, rather than feeling trapped.

Just to echo, you are one change of boss away from hating a job you used to love. Also, don't underestimate the reduced amount of crap you're willing to put up with as you grow older/get more confident/get more competent in your job. Always pursue FI!

[Louise]

My boss said a jerky thing to me in a meeting and I called him out on it (it wasn't on purpose, more of a bad optics thing, but I was totally in the right). Haha- he was not expecting that, especially because I'm generally mild mannered. He actually avoided me for about two months and then I was moved to a new boss during a reorg. We were FI too, so didn't care if I was fired. It's a very helpful thing to have in your back pocket!

[mistymoney]

My boss said a jerky thing to me in a meeting and I called him out on it (it wasn't on purpose, more of a bad optics thing, but I was totally in the right). Haha- he was not expecting that, especially because I'm generally mild mannered. He actually avoided me for about two months and then I was moved to a new boss during a reorg. We were FI too, so didn't care if I was fired. It's a very helpful thing to have in your back pocket!

haha!

[fuzzy math]

I'm living in toxic land too. Some days are great, when I get paired with the right people, some days I absolutely feel physically ill. Good luck to both of you in flexing your FU-ness

[GilesMM]

It's great to be financially independent, but, if not, able to exercise options for other jobs.  Many people feel "locked" into a job when they may be surprised how easily they could land a job with a better boss, co-workers, even benefits.

[LaineyAZ]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

[wageslave23]

I'm living in toxic land too. Some days are great, when I get paired with the right people, some days I absolutely feel physically ill. Good luck to both of you in flexing your FU-ness

Thanks. You too.

[41_swish]

We just had a coworker who is under credentialed and under experienced promoted to manager. At the time, I thought who cares, it's not my company - I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. Well, fast forward a few months and she has set up all these tasks with deadlines and micromanaging the shit out of everything. She just had a company wide meeting berating everyone, new employees who are still learning and experienced employees who are Rockstar employees in all measurable variables except these arbitrary micromanaging tasks. Needless to say, the new employees are overwhelmed by the workload and experienced employees are pissed that they are being treated like they work at McDonald's. Luckily I'm FI and will be monitoring the situation carefully to see if it eventually blows over. But if it gets worse or if veteran employees start leaving putting the company in a tough spot with the remaining employees, I will be jumping ship too which will only make the landslide for the company worse. Any younger MMMers reading this - your lack of FI or at least FU money is truly a hair on fire emergency.  I used to not mind my job, but things can change quickly and this is just one example. Get your FU money ASAP, you never know when you will need it.

It is a shame, but this is just the nature of the beast. There is always politics like this, and it sucks. Posts like this have lit a fire under my butt to motivate me to aggressively save.

[2sk22]

Any younger MMMers reading this - your lack of FI or at least FU money is truly a hair on fire emergency.  I used to not mind my job, but things can change quickly and this is just one example. Get your FU money ASAP, you never know when you will need it.

Words of wisdom! My wife says that having FU money is what makes her job enjoyable. Without that, it would be one constant stress-fest

[Ron Scott]

It’s important to be FI so you have options in life from a long-term perspective. But you don’t need FI money to move on from a company when the time has come.

[redhead84]

Yes, I'm in the midst of a big work transition. My boss (the CFO) just left the company. I've been through this before -- more work and stress while the position is open and then the wildcard of a new boss with new expectations after the position is filled. I don't plan on leaving, but it is nice to not have finances be a factor in the future decisions.

[mistymoney]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

How wide spread is that?

My DD and all her friends are very career focused. And voting today!

[Sandi_k]

My boss said a jerky thing to me in a meeting and I called him out on it (it wasn't on purpose, more of a bad optics thing, but I was totally in the right). Haha- he was not expecting that, especially because I'm generally mild mannered. He actually avoided me for about two months and then I was moved to a new boss during a reorg. We were FI too, so didn't care if I was fired. It's a very helpful thing to have in your back pocket!

Now I want to know what he said!

And how you so wonderfully parried him with "Not today, F*cker!"

:-)

[Sandi_k]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

How wide spread is that?

My DD and all her friends are very career focused. And voting today!

Unfortunately, in religious circles, it seems to be gaining ground. When I discussed deciding on a college major with my then-17 year old niece (i.e., choosing something that would assist her in the job market once graduated), she airily replied that SHE didn't need to worry about making a living, as it would be her husband's job to do so.

This was in 2019, and I am still horrified that my brother has raised a child who thinks this way.

Our parents separated when Mom was 33, with three kids under the age of 8. She struggled for nearly a decade as a single mom, in an era before women were allowed to buy a house or open a credit card without a husband. My brother SAW this, and he has a privileged daughter with no thought about what it would be like to be abandoned for the new, younger model ate age 40.

Gah!

[Freedomin5]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

How wide spread is that?

My DD and all her friends are very career focused. And voting today!

Unfortunately, in religious circles, it seems to be gaining ground. When I discussed deciding on a college major with my then-17 year old niece (i.e., choosing something that would assist her in the job market once graduated), she airily replied that SHE didn't need to worry about making a living, as it would be her husband's job to do so.

This was in 2019, and I am still horrified that my brother has raised a child who thinks this way.

Our parents separated when Mom was 33, with three kids under the age of 8. She struggled for nearly a decade as a single mom, in an era before women were allowed to buy a house or open a credit card without a husband. My brother SAW this, and he has a privileged daughter with no thought about what it would be like to be abandoned for the new, younger model ate age 40.

Gah!

Those in religious circles who think this way really need to re-read Proverbs 31’s definition of a “wife of noble character”. The woman in there (a woman to be praised) spins, weaves, invests in real estate, starts multiple businesses, and her businesses are so successful her husband doesn’t need to work and can sit at the gates boasting about his awesome wife.

[simonsez]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

What types of economic times do you prefer?  What markers and metrics are you using?  Unemployment? Inflation? 10 year Treasury yield?  Market returns?  GDP?  My household operates on a fairly low information diet but it seems like the economy is at least "good" if not "very good" with any comparisons historically in the US or compared to other parts of the world.  I'm assuming you were referencing the US, apologies if you were not.

My wife just got out of teaching public grade school and is expecting.  She plans to stay home until our child is able to attend PK.  If she wants to go back sooner to the world of wages whether that's in the field of education or something different, she's certainly welcome to (or if she wants to stay at home forever, that's also fine!) - but she made that choice largely because the economy has been so great for so long (and our investments have grown nicely which we plan to leave untouched but is nice for peace of mind to fall back on in an emergency) and is confident she could get a job if we needed to or that I could get some side hustles.  I certainly do not consider myself a high earner (our HH income is between 1x-2x the national median) but when you live below your means and some things are just more important than staying in a job (that has eroded BIG TIME for her, especially post-COVID) just to earn more/save more/retire sooner/etc. and the economy has been humming along, you do what works.  It has little or nothing to do with feminism and definitely zilch to do with religion in our household.  Maybe the trend of romanticizing earning more dollars at the expense of other endeavors is surprising given the amazing world we live in with the freedom to pursue whatever we want.

Do these women that voluntarily leave the W-2/1099 labor market tend to regret the time they were at home with their children or whatever is it they are now pursuing (gardening/homesteading, entrepreneurship, running for or supporting elected a type of elected office, charity work, writing, music-making, etc.)?  Or are they generally happy with their choices?  I feel like a year from now (if everything goes well from this point and we're lucky to be parents of a 9-10 month old) if my wife is not happy being at home, she would just return to the official labor force in some capacity*.  No matter what the path, she will be doing what she wants.  I don't see anything wrong with that, nor do we see anything wrong with mothers who go back to the workforce soon after giving birth or those that choose to rear children on a more permanent basis.  To each their own.

* If you were solely talking about childless homemakers without any serious conditions that would prevent them from participating in the labor market (including charities and other non-profits) and are not FI, then that makes much more sense under a feminist lens (or lack thereof)!  Yeah I could not be with someone (nor could I be that type of person) like that nor could my wife.  It's still to each their own, though.  Being a kept man or kept woman wouldn't work for us but if it does for others, cool. 

[LaineyAZ]

simonsez,
I think you're taking the comment about these economic times too literally. 

I meant, in general, it's never a good idea to be completely dependent on another adult for your financial support in the U.S. for a lot of reasons:

- the U.S. safety net is pretty patchy so a sole breadwinner losing a job can push many families into dire circumstances sooner than they think
- females marrying young (as the trad wife style encourages) and having babies before gaining an education or a marketable skill is a very high-risk proposition; hence the comment about turning 40 and being served with divorce papers/traded in for a younger version is so common it doesn't even cause anyone to express surprise.  It can easily flip someone (usually female) from a middle-class life to scrambling for every dollar for years
- I grew up working class and as author Rick Bragg has said, have seen how "everything can turn to shit in a second."  I've never held the carefree belief that so many folks who grew up in middle and upper class families seem to have that their comfortable lives would never be affected by divorce, disability or death of a breadwinner.    And with AI encroaching fast on middle-class jobs, I think it's going to be a wild ride as good jobs get eliminated.

I've mentioned elsewhere the book "Cut Adrift, Families in Insecure Times" by Marianne Cooper.  It shows how the American middle-class is continuing to slip.
In fact, I think the continued economic anxiety is what helped fuel the rise of someone like Trump because sadly, I think many (men especially) are casting about for someone to blame and immigrants are an easy target.

I'll stop here except to say I'm glad that your spouse will be able to be a stay at home parent.  Sincerely.  I'm sure you have savings and disability insurance, life insurance, and other safeguards to make sure that can happen and keep your family secure. 
I just don't want anyone to walk blindly into that life (so romanticized in TikTok, and now even satirized on Saturday Night Live) without really thinking of all of the ramifications. 

[spartana]

^^^Well said @LaineyAZ . Add in that economic hardship can also just be the cost of living for many couples with kids and median salaries or lower. Often times to provide basic housing, food, a vehicle, and some basic things in life both spouses need to work.  Throw in extras like providing a college education, a family vacation and saving/investing and it's just not doable on one income. People on this site seem to have pretty high incomes so affording high housing cost or dealing with inflation for everything from food to energy on one income is probably doable. There's even money left over to invest. Not always the case for everyone no matter how good the economy is or how low the unemployment rate is or how high the market is. Especially if there's nothing left over to invest.

As for the OP: Being FI can open so many doors to new opportunities outside of a job. You are no longer held back by having to earn an income that if something exciting presents itself (and not just job or money making opportunities)  - especially those once-in-a-lifetime opportunities - you're free to grab them!

[Much Fishing to Do]

I'll add it is important to just "attempt" to be FI, and can pay off well before you actually are.  This is what I like to point out to all the FIRE haters that talk about how the many years of saving is nothing but sacrifice, a sacrifice that lasts a significant part of your life and so may not be worth it.

I hated my job, both the job and the way it took me away from my family for hours and even days upon days, but it paid well...  I looked up one day and had savings equal to 5x my annual spend and wondered, why in the hell am I here.  Why I dont I leave, find another good job, not accepting just a stopgap, and consider the time looking a vacation as opposed to being unemployed.  Most people my age at that time don't have months, much less years, of savings that made this a reasonable action.  And the only reason I had all that savings was because a few years prior I had become determined to FIRE.

When I hit about 8x savings (well before the FIRE goal), it occured to me that I had no financial worries beyond one "exactly how young can I retire?".  Not what if I lose (or leave) my job, what if the car breaks down, what if my insurance doesn't cover everything.  That's an awfully comfortable place to be.

Many years later, now FI, it turns out I think it is good for me to have a part time job (worked from home) for a few reasons (similar to how it is 'good for me' to exercise, even though I don't always love it).  But it has to be ridiculously perfect, which is what I held out for, because I could. And I got it.  And I could lose it tomorrow, and that is ok too.

[mistymoney]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

How wide spread is that?

My DD and all her friends are very career focused. And voting today!

Unfortunately, in religious circles, it seems to be gaining ground. When I discussed deciding on a college major with my then-17 year old niece (i.e., choosing something that would assist her in the job market once graduated), she airily replied that SHE didn't need to worry about making a living, as it would be her husband's job to do so.

This was in 2019, and I am still horrified that my brother has raised a child who thinks this way.

Our parents separated when Mom was 33, with three kids under the age of 8. She struggled for nearly a decade as a single mom, in an era before women were allowed to buy a house or open a credit card without a husband. My brother SAW this, and he has a privileged daughter with no thought about what it would be like to be abandoned for the new, younger model ate age 40.

Gah!

yikes.

did neice finish a degree?

[Sandi_k]

@mistymoney - she's a senior in college this year. Comparative religious at a far-right Catholic private university.

Solemnly informed my cousin's DH - with a PhD in philosophy - that they didn't study any modern philosophy, as they are all blasphemous. But Plato and Aristotle are apparently OK.

[achvfi]

I had bad boss few years ago and it is just unbelievable how bad the job became with introduction of just one bad person to the team. Difference was night and day. Within few months I figured she was a psycho, I moved on to different role. Later I learned she put that team through the wringer. One day I was passing by old team one of the teammates in his 50s came to me and gave me big bear hug with tears in his eyes. Apparently she was making their lives hell. So many good coworkers suffered and team disintegrated. Luckily after a while they got relief, she was promoted and had to take over some other team. LOL. Then one day I got a call from a person reporting to her in new team, asking me about my experience working with her and he was at a loss on how to work with her. I told there is nothing he can do, just move on.

Life is too short to go through such nonsense.

Anyway that experience reinforced my already good financial habits. Keeping expenses reasonable, staying put in our more than adequate home, not buying new cars... so on.

Now we are somewhere between lean FI and FI. Such situations do not phase me anymore. I am no wage slave no more, pun intended.

[mistymoney]

@mistymoney - she's a senior in college this year. Comparative religious at a far-right Catholic private university.

Solemnly informed my cousin's DH - with a PhD in philosophy - that they didn't study any modern philosophy, as they are all blasphemous. But Plato and Aristotle are apparently OK.

I have to repeat myself. yikes.

Hope it works out for her.

[Sandi_k]

@mistymoney - she's a senior in college this year. Comparative religious at a far-right Catholic private university.

Solemnly informed my cousin's DH - with a PhD in philosophy - that they didn't study any modern philosophy, as they are all blasphemous. But Plato and Aristotle are apparently OK.

I have to repeat myself. yikes.

Hope it works out for her.

I am torn - I kinda want it to not work out for her, at least in the 5-7 years after graduation. I'd love to see her humbled enough to get some real work experience that she can rely on later in life, ya know?

If it works out for her immediately, it will be a much harder crash if things go wrong in her 40's.

[mistymoney]

@mistymoney - she's a senior in college this year. Comparative religious at a far-right Catholic private university.

Solemnly informed my cousin's DH - with a PhD in philosophy - that they didn't study any modern philosophy, as they are all blasphemous. But Plato and Aristotle are apparently OK.

I have to repeat myself. yikes.

Hope it works out for her.

I am torn - I kinda want it to not work out for her, at least in the 5-7 years after graduation. I'd love to see her humbled enough to get some real work experience that she can rely on later in life, ya know?

If it works out for her immediately, it will be a much harder crash if things go wrong in her 40's.

was meaning "works outs" to be overall, if early bumps in the road lead to ok, that is works outs.

Would not be - smooth sailing for 25 years and then a tough rest of her life as an older single woman.....

[clarkfan1979]

My wife worked for a retail company that had a very strong culture of promoting from within. One of the biggest predictors of getting promoted was "willingness to move". Toward the end of her 10 year career at that company she had a few different managers that were younger, less experienced and just didn't know what they were doing. She ran the largest department in the store and her numbers were very good. However, her numbers were never good enough for management, so she ended up quitting. They had 2-3 different replacements that posted worse numbers and corporate decided to close the store within 18 months.

I don't mind having a boss with high expectations that knows what they are doing. However, it continues to amaze me how many bad bosses exist that are a liability to a company, but they continue to get promoted. It shouldn't surprise me, but it still does. 

[SunnyDays]

My wife worked for a retail company that had a very strong culture of promoting from within. One of the biggest predictors of getting promoted was "willingness to move". Toward the end of her 10 year career at that company she had a few different managers that were younger, less experienced and just didn't know what they were doing. She ran the largest department in the store and her numbers were very good. However, her numbers were never good enough for management, so she ended up quitting. They had 2-3 different replacements that posted worse numbers and corporate decided to close the store within 18 months.

I don't mind having a boss with high expectations that knows what they are doing. However, it continues to amaze me how many bad bosses exist that are a liability to a company, but they continue to get promoted. It shouldn't surprise me, but it still does. 

As the saying goes, "One rises to the level of their incompetence."

[use2betrix]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

There’s a lot of benefits to having a parent that can stay at home with children before they start kindergarten and also available more readily through their education.

On a forum surrounding early retirement, there’s also an argument in living within a families means so a spouse can stay at home to improve the families quality of life.

[okits]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

There’s a lot of benefits to having a parent that can stay at home with children before they start kindergarten and also available more readily through their education.

On a forum surrounding early retirement, there’s also an argument in living within a families means so a spouse can stay at home to improve the families quality of life.

All real benefits to the children and the family unit.  But the concern in @LaineyAZ 's comment was surrounding the financial vulnerability of the spouse whose current marketable skills are homemaking and caregiving, or as in @Sandi_k 's niece's situation, youth and beauty that will inevitably decline.  Choose dependency at your own peril.

[jeninco]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

There’s a lot of benefits to having a parent that can stay at home with children before they start kindergarten and also available more readily through their education.

On a forum surrounding early retirement, there’s also an argument in living within a families means so a spouse can stay at home to improve the families quality of life.

All real benefits to the children and the family unit.  But the concern in @LaineyAZ 's comment was surrounding the financial vulnerability of the spouse whose current marketable skills are homemaking and caregiving, or as in @Sandi_k 's niece's situation, youth and beauty that will inevitably decline.  Choose dependency at your own peril.

This.

I have a professional consulting job that happens to be part-time (more accurate to say "hours vary", but in order for me to officially remain a "consultant" I have to be able to control my own hours).  So I got to be the parent who largely stayed home with small kids (we had a few nanny hours when they were really small so I could work and they went to a lovely local preschool) and who was "around" when the kids were older, so typically available to talk when they got home from school, and help get them places, and help organize their soccer teams and such.  While still doing consulting in a STEM field, so if something really horrible happened I could get a FT job at a fairly high technical level.

It helps that DH is supportive of all this, and we picked a solution that worked pretty well for our entire family, including me (should something horrible happen).

[Laura33]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

It's stotting -- or, as These Kids Today would say, a flex.  Really, it's no different than Country Club Mom showing off her new tennis bracelet.

It's not about the benefits of having a parent stay at home.  It's about signaling your high status to your cohort.

@mistymoney - she's a senior in college this year. Comparative religious at a far-right Catholic private university.

Solemnly informed my cousin's DH - with a PhD in philosophy - that they didn't study any modern philosophy, as they are all blasphemous. But Plato and Aristotle are apparently OK.

I have to repeat myself. yikes.

Hope it works out for her.

I am torn - I kinda want it to not work out for her, at least in the 5-7 years after graduation. I'd love to see her humbled enough to get some real work experience that she can rely on later in life, ya know?

Eh, won't happen.  Because she is doing all of the Right Things and living pursuant to her values, which means God will bless her with abundance.  Ergo, anything that goes wrong will be due to someone else who is not as God-fearing and righteous as her.  At best, it will be a trial that God grants her to demonstrate her continuing faith and obedience; at worst, it will be the devil-worshipping modern-lack-of-morals persecuting her.

The kinds of folks who are attracted to this very rigid thinking are also the kind of folks who don't tend to be open to learning lessons that run contrary to that thinking.

[GuitarStv]

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

How wide spread is that?

My DD and all her friends are very career focused. And voting today!

Unfortunately, in religious circles, it seems to be gaining ground. When I discussed deciding on a college major with my then-17 year old niece (i.e., choosing something that would assist her in the job market once graduated), she airily replied that SHE didn't need to worry about making a living, as it would be her husband's job to do so.

This was in 2019, and I am still horrified that my brother has raised a child who thinks this way.

Our parents separated when Mom was 33, with three kids under the age of 8. She struggled for nearly a decade as a single mom, in an era before women were allowed to buy a house or open a credit card without a husband. My brother SAW this, and he has a privileged daughter with no thought about what it would be like to be abandoned for the new, younger model ate age 40.

Gah!

yikes.

did neice finish a degree?

This has been going on for quite a while.  At least I remember running into a few young women like this at university.  We used to say they were trying to earn their MRS.

[seemsright]

Having at least FU money is vital. Being FI creates a major source of confidence, and FU energy that can intimidate managers like nothing other.

Hubby is on a team with a young manager who has no idea what He is doing. The senior team members on the team all at least have FU money, and many of them are FI in one way or another. This poor Manager is so far over his head it is comical. He gets told No all of the time, laughed at, and his meetings are ignored.

Hubby is the ring leader of this team, He was the one that created this team back in the day. If Hubby left the team would fall apart, and they know it. So Hubby does what he wants to do, and nothing more. He also throws the young manager under the bus as needed.

Hubby knows he holds power, this Manager often talks about how he does not make enough, and this issue and that issue, that a phone call and a check could make the problem go way. Hubby just shakes his head at this guy daily.   

I FIRED 14 years ago when DD was born, Hubby could FIRE today if he wanted to. But the plan is to have hubby work till DD is through college. Then pull Rule 55. We will see DD will finish her JR year of HS this year. And then she will have 2 years of college at the community college paid for by the school district.

Hubby could work at another company with ease, but the work life balance of this job is off the charts, the health insurance cost us almost nothing and is 5 stars, and 12.5% 401K match is unheard of. So he has made this manager and job a game.

[twinstudy]

You don't need FU money to do what you like in the workplace. Anyone who's talented and knows how to work the system will always have an abundance of work opportunities, without having to be a suck up. It's an easy game to play. By the same token, though, anyone with those attributes is likely to be in a good position to gain financial independence, if he or she wants it.

The value of financial independence is that you no longer have to base life decisions and life obligations around money and other limitations. You can pursue a passion, you can more easily choose where you live and with whom you hang out, etc.

[mm1970]

Do these women that voluntarily leave the W-2/1099 labor market tend to regret the time they were at home with their children or whatever is it they are now pursuing (gardening/homesteading, entrepreneurship, running for or supporting elected a type of elected office, charity work, writing, music-making, etc.)?  Or are they generally happy with their choices?

Some don't, some do.  At least in my circle, it was stressful when my friend's (who quit work 13 years ago) husband got laid off.  He got a job several months later, but it was a nail biter.  Some of them don't regret it at all, even the ones who ended up divorced and having to figure it all out in their 40s (with a job).

It's about balance.  I have another friend who I hung out with recently - we hadn't really hung out since our kids were 3, and they were seniors together.  "I'm so jealous" - her words to me when I mentioned my mortgage will be paid off by the end of the year.  But: she's got a bigger house, and it cost more (but they bought at a MUCH better time, when the market tanked).  So, that puts them about 20 years behind us on paying off the mortgage, or 25 years, realistically, because they are single income.  On the flip side, man, she has so much more fun than I do.  Several of my friends from that group still get together, because they are only working PT or not at all, and it's a lot more free time! 

@mistymoney - she's a senior in college this year. Comparative religious at a far-right Catholic private university.

Solemnly informed my cousin's DH - with a PhD in philosophy - that they didn't study any modern philosophy, as they are all blasphemous. But Plato and Aristotle are apparently OK.

I've got a friend whose daughter made an offhand comment to her mom that she's going to college to find a husband and stay at home.  Her mom, an accountant, was horrified.  She and her kid's dad are divorced, and kid went to religious school. 

When I read the subject headline I thought this was going to be about not depending on your domestic partner for your financial support.
The trend of romanticizing being a "trad wife" - i.e., a homemaker without a paying job - is definitely surprising in these economic times.  It's like the feminist revolution of the 1970s and 1980s never happened ..

There’s a lot of benefits to having a parent that can stay at home with children before they start kindergarten and also available more readily through their education.

On a forum surrounding early retirement, there’s also an argument in living within a families means so a spouse can stay at home to improve the families quality of life.

100% I'd argue that it would be FAR BETTER for society to be structured so that BOTH parents can work part time and be home part time.  THAT is an improvement in quality of life, potentially, that results in much less risk for the "non working" parent.

[twinstudy]

Many families could be structured so that both parents can work part-time. It doesn't happen because people tend to over-consume or aren't willing to make other lifestyle sacrifices.

I'm not saying two min-wage earners can do that, but two median-wage earners certainly can.

[markbike528CBX]

My wife worked for a retail company that had a very strong culture of promoting from within. One of the biggest predictors of getting promoted was "willingness to move". Toward the end of her 10 year career at that company she had a few different managers that were younger, less experienced and just didn't know what they were doing. She ran the largest department in the store and her numbers were very good. However, her numbers were never good enough for management, so she ended up quitting. They had 2-3 different replacements that posted worse numbers and corporate decided to close the store within 18 months.

I don't mind having a boss with high expectations that knows what they are doing. However, it continues to amaze me how many bad bosses exist that are a liability to a company, but they continue to get promoted. It shouldn't surprise me, but it still does. 

As the saying goes, "One rises to the level of their incompetence."

That is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
as extended by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle
"By the Dilbert principle, employees who were never competent are promoted to management to limit the damage they can do."
I think I've seen the Dilbert Principle in action once.   It wasn't my direct organization, so I didn't follow up or track the results.

[GilesMM]

My wife worked for a retail company that had a very strong culture of promoting from within. One of the biggest predictors of getting promoted was "willingness to move". Toward the end of her 10 year career at that company she had a few different managers that were younger, less experienced and just didn't know what they were doing. She ran the largest department in the store and her numbers were very good. However, her numbers were never good enough for management, so she ended up quitting. They had 2-3 different replacements that posted worse numbers and corporate decided to close the store within 18 months.

I don't mind having a boss with high expectations that knows what they are doing. However, it continues to amaze me how many bad bosses exist that are a liability to a company, but they continue to get promoted. It shouldn't surprise me, but it still does. 

As the saying goes, "One rises to the level of their incompetence."

That is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
as extended by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle
"By the Dilbert principle, employees who were never competent are promoted to management to limit the damage they can do."
I think I've seen the Dilbert Principle in action once.   It wasn't my direct organization, so I didn't follow up or track the results.

A well-respected Sr. VP at a megacorp at which I worked was interviewed by Fortune magazine who asked how he made it to his lofty perch to which he replied "I guess they just kept promoting me until they found a job I could do, haha".

[mistymoney]

I've got a friend whose daughter made an offhand comment to her mom that she's going to college to find a husband and stay at home.  Her mom, an accountant, was horrified.  She and her kid's dad are divorced, and kid went to religious school.

It's because it is out there in the schools from other kids who are encouraged to think that way. Around 11 to 12 yo point my daughter absorbed this and would out of the blue say things like "I'm going to marry a rock star" or "I'm going to marry a millionaire".

I'd just calmly reply "why don't you be a rock star?", "Why don't you be a millionaire?" And I'd listen to what she said. Then encourage her to develop her own abilities even if she did marry a rock star.

Spoiler: show

she became quite ambitious! and is persuing her dreams in a creative space while also working professionally for good money

[okits]

I've got a friend whose daughter made an offhand comment to her mom that she's going to college to find a husband and stay at home.  Her mom, an accountant, was horrified.  She and her kid's dad are divorced, and kid went to religious school.

It's because it is out there in the schools from other kids who are encouraged to think that way. Around 11 to 12 yo point my daughter absorbed this and would out of the blue say things like "I'm going to marry a rock star" or "I'm going to marry a millionaire".

I'd just calmly reply "why don't you be a rock star?", "Why don't you be a millionaire?" And I'd listen to what she said. Then encourage her to develop her own abilities even if she did marry a rock star.

Spoiler: show

she became quite ambitious! and is persuing her dreams in a creative space while also working professionally for good money

👏

Cher's "Mom, I am a rich man" clip.

I like the idea of being with someone because you want to be with them, not because they're a meal ticket.

[mm1970]

Many families could be structured so that both parents can work part-time. It doesn't happen because people tend to over-consume or aren't willing to make other lifestyle sacrifices.

I'm not saying two min-wage earners can do that, but two median-wage earners certainly can.

The difficulties that we faced when discussing/ considering this (full disclosure, I worked "part time" - 30-35 hours a week - for about 2.5 to 3 years total)
1.  Health insurance - only kicks in at most employers (at least, ours) at 30+ hours a week.
2.  Job titles - legit, my boss decided he would have to demote me at 35 hours a week, so I stayed full time.  But once he quit, my new boss was 100% fine with it.  At 30+ hours a week, I offloaded the BS part of the job and did the higher level stuff and STILL was able to be a manager.

[mistymoney]

I've got a friend whose daughter made an offhand comment to her mom that she's going to college to find a husband and stay at home.  Her mom, an accountant, was horrified.  She and her kid's dad are divorced, and kid went to religious school.

It's because it is out there in the schools from other kids who are encouraged to think that way. Around 11 to 12 yo point my daughter absorbed this and would out of the blue say things like "I'm going to marry a rock star" or "I'm going to marry a millionaire".

I'd just calmly reply "why don't you be a rock star?", "Why don't you be a millionaire?" And I'd listen to what she said. Then encourage her to develop her own abilities even if she did marry a rock star.

Spoiler: show

she became quite ambitious! and is persuing her dreams in a creative space while also working professionally for good money

👏

Cher's "Mom, I am a rich man" clip.

I like the idea of being with someone because you want to be with them, not because they're a meal ticket.

Love that Cher quote!

What annoys me is how young girls are conditioned around aspiring to adult relationships. Starts in the crib with snow white and cinderella. Not that I was perfect by any means, it is all so deeply ingrained in all of us from birth that a lot of it just floats around unnoticed.

[MMMarbleheader]

My wife has been a SAHM since a year after we married (25), now 38 and it has been a great choice for us. Having one flexible schedule has been a life saver for working late, planning vacations, kids being sick all the time. My income has gone from $48k (that was tight) to $174k in that time which has helped alot. Hopefully I will join her in 2025.

The tax code is also very helpful to higher income single earner families with Children. At my current wage I only started getting into the 22% tax bracket (after maxing out 401k, HSA) plus you get $2000 per kid in a tax credits, plus I can contribute to a spousal IRA for my wife which is deductible.

As the kids get older, it almost even better to have her home. More activities, more sneaky things they do that you can kick in the ass. Bigger kids bigger problems.

I want my daughter to get a decently paying job she likes when she graduates but if we wanted to be a SAHM I would 100% support her. Her mom will be around to help as well so maybe she could do some part time things. HOWEVER, most men who want stay at home wives dont want the pressure of being the sole income. Being only one income was part of the reason I found FIRE.

[Turtle]

 <snip>

I want my daughter to get a decently paying job she likes when she graduates but if we wanted to be a SAHM I would 100% support her. Her mom will be around to help as well so maybe she could do some part time things. HOWEVER, most men who want stay at home wives dont want the pressure of being the sole income. Being only one income was part of the reason I found FIRE.

What I’ve shown my daughter is that with sufficient IRA/401k investments now, she can basically be CoastFI by the time she’s ready to have kids which makes the SAHM choice more flexible.