Why I don't work for big tech (at least for now)

[jaysee]

So as a software developer, there are some who would tell me I should be setting my sights higher and aiming at working for one of the big tech firms.

You know the one's I'm talking about...

G_____
F_______
T______
A_____
N______

Fill in the blanks.

I guess Silicon Valley is to developers what Hollywood is to film people.

At various times I've wondered if I should try for one of these big flashy companies.

But strangely enough, I don't think I've ever been tempted. Meaning, I can't recall I time when I actually wanted - inside of myself - to work for them.

Do I love their products? Sure! I love typing in a question and getting an answer back. I love watching videos online. I love ordering products online. I love sharing my opinions and connecting to people I know.

But does that mean I want to work for the providers of those products? So far... not really.

Here's what actually draws me to a job:

* Great pay
* Nice people
* Nice and/or convenient location
* Ability to qualify for working rights in the country in which they're located
* Big, long-term projects, where steady output and quality are more important than rushing and throwing things together
* Specific projects with clear deliverables - so I have something to put on my CV
* Time-limited engagements
* Tech that I'm comfortable working with
* Low stress, low commitment
* 9-5 hours and having my weekends to myself (or being compensated for weekend work)

I've found all these benefits and more with non-tech corporate clients. E.g. banking, government, mobile providers, utilities, etc. In short: so-called "boring" companies. These companies aren't glamorous, but they're steady and stable and provide a pretty nice, relaxed work environment.

Because developers aren't falling over themselves to try and get into these companies, they tend to have reasonable requirements and don't expect the best "10x programmer" or whatever. They simply want someone who's capable and competent.

Working for these companies already feels like a mini-retirement because the work culture is so relaxed and chill that it feels more like play than like work.

And... funnily enough... these companies actually do get a lot done. I've worked on and helped to launch many successful projects with them. I've seen happy customers, happy management and happy staff. No big dramas or late nights. Just slow & steady work based on realistic expectations.

[flipboard]

Here's what actually draws me to a job:

* Great pay
* Nice people
* Nice and/or convenient location
* Ability to qualify for working rights in the country in which they're located
* Big, long-term projects, where steady output and quality are more important than rushing and throwing things together
* Specific projects with clear deliverables - so I have something to put on my CV
* Time-limited engagements
* Tech that I'm comfortable working with
* Low stress, low commitment
* 9-5 hours and having my weekends to myself (or being compensated for weekend work)

Oddly enough, these are all available at many of those companies too. Big companies means big variance, but there are good teams, in good locations, in them.

I can agree that the application process however tends to be quite silly.

[jaysee]

I can understand from their point of view that they can afford to be picky. The question is - from my point of view, why should I bend over backwards to accommodate their crazy demands?

If they can pay me truly above and beyond what I could ever make at a regular firm, then yeah, maybe it's worth giving it a try. But so far the highest I've heard developer salaries go is $300k. After tax that's only about a quarter more than I already make, plus housing costs in the valley are through the roof. And that's the cream-of-the-crop developer - people from Stanford, etc. I don't have any firm evidence that someone without a degree like me would get paid that much.

And a quarter sounds like a lot of money, but I dunno... giving up massive chunks of my time? Working like crazy? Devoting myself to one employer? Relocating to the US? All that for just a quarter more income?

I don't know... maybe I'm making excuses not to try. But just based on plain facts and evidence, it doesn't seem like big tech is offering me a significantly better deal than what I can already get.

Also, a job being highly competitive and sought after doesn't mean it's actually valuable. Markets can get driven up by people wanting to impress other people and hype, quite apart from any objective value.

I am still trying to keep an open mind. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

[cloudsail]

Honestly, I think you have a great career and should stick to it. Many developers won't consider working for a non-tech company because they think it's boring or it won't do anything to advance their career. My DH is like this, and I wish he'd at least give it a shot. I've worked both for megacorp and for a heavily tech focused e-commerce company, and I liked the latter much better. I would totally go for non-tech company jobs if I was still in the workforce. DH cites stuff like having to work with people who don't understand software, but I actually enjoyed not being surrounded by a bunch of techies all the time. I liked the diversity of my coworkers and encountered much fewer a**holes than at megacorp.

Though to be fair, both my DH and I had very reasonable hours with megacorps. With large companies it's more about the specific team that you work for, so the team culture is something you try to suss out during the interview. The one you absolutely want to avoid if you want a life outside work is software startups.

[FIREstache]

If you can't get a job at FANG, just rationalize to yourself that you don't really want to work there.  You'll feel better about yourself.

[jaysee]

I think I could get into FANG if I really tried hard and worked my butt off.

The tricky thing is trying to square that with the idea of living a happy life.

Does "happiness" have to mean gruelling, painful effort, sleepless nights, multiple failures, endless frustration, in order to achieve one big goal at the end, which I'm not 100% sure I even wanted that much to begin with?

In that case I don't know if I want 'happiness'.

Surely I'm not the only one struggling to define 'happiness'?

I don't want to fall into the trap of inventing rationalisations in order to protect myself from reality.

But I also don't want to pursue goals that, in the pursuit of them, make life a drudgery.

[2sk22]

This is an interesting topic to me as I've never worked in a FAANG company myself and yet I've done well enough over the years. I do need to point out that its not just the FAANG companies that pay very well in the tech world. Many companies have been forced to raise salaries to compete with the FAANG cluster (depending on your skill set)

As a 28 year survivor in tech, the only advice I can offer is to recommend that save as much as you can when the going is good. FU money is super valuable. Much more so than other well-paying professions like medicine or law, the tech industry feels a lot more brutal and cut-throat.

[deborah]

I once worked at a software startup. It was wonderful. An amazing work culture. Really good pay. Pity they were taken over.

[flipboard]

I can understand from their point of view that they can afford to be picky. The question is - from my point of view, why should I bend over backwards to accommodate their crazy demands?

Probably not. It's a big gamble, in your situation I wouldn't.

If they can pay me truly above and beyond what I could ever make at a regular firm, then yeah, maybe it's worth giving it a try. But so far the highest I've heard developer salaries go is $300k. After tax that's only about a quarter more than I already make, plus housing costs in the valley are through the roof. And that's the cream-of-the-crop developer - people from Stanford, etc. I don't have any firm evidence that someone without a degree like me would get paid that much.

Salaries can go higher than that, even outside the "valley". Entry level is already close to 200k. If you play the game right (competing offers) you can get 300k with e.g. 5 years experience (not everyone does, but it's possible).

And a quarter sounds like a lot of money, but I dunno... giving up massive chunks of my time? Working like crazy? Devoting myself to one employer? Relocating to the US? All that for just a quarter more income?

You can work 40 hours per week, and you don't have to go to the US. The options are limited, but there are cities and countries with identical pay to the Bay Area, lower taxes, better life, etc. I'm not going to give away the secrets, you'll need to do your own research - but I assure you it's possible, and I know plenty of people in such a situation. (Equally you have to be careful with team selection, some teams work too hard for no good reason.)

I don't know... maybe I'm making excuses not to try. But just based on plain facts and evidence, it doesn't seem like big tech is offering me a significantly better deal than what I can already get.

Certainly. It sounds like you have a good life, and you won't get much of an improvement. But you also seem to have some misconceptions about these companies. It seems like you have a chip on your shoulder. Rest assured, your current life sounds good. I wouldn't go changing anything, unless someting bad happens like your current employer fires you or cuts your salary.

[blackomen]

If you can't get a job at FANG, just rationalize to yourself that you don't really want to work there.  You'll feel better about yourself.

Yeah, I'm sick of the all of the drama, psychological games, and other forms of dysfunction that could be eliminated simply by admitting "I really want a job at FANG or some elite place but didn't get one."

Case in point, back in 2007 when I was doing my Masters in Finance and Countrywide was the boogyman for the financial crisis that was just brewing, I remember a classmate who was rejected from Countrywide and he was like "oh well, who wants to work for a company that started this whole mess?" and numerous others were talking behind his back saying stuff like "oh, don't listen to him, he's just bitter that he didn't get a job there."

[PDXTabs]

I guess Silicon Valley is to developers what Hollywood is to film people.

It absolutely is, but FANG (skipping Amazon for a moment because the pay isn't that good and they aren't bay area) isn't the only thing the draws people to the bay area. Some people come to the bay area for the critical mass of startups, and they only want to work for places where they can get a real amount of pre-IPO equity.

Similarly, companies know that the bay area is expensive but they come for the critical mass of developers.

[Maenad]

If you can't get a job at FANG, just rationalize to yourself that you don't really want to work there.  You'll feel better about yourself.

I thought being a mustachian was about optimizing quality of life, not chasing after name-brand material bullshit. Sometimes the desire to work for a specific Shiny Amazing company is just another version of chasing after name-brand material bullshit. The FAANGs are a prime example (today).

[Mustache ride]

If you can't get a job at FANG, just rationalize to yourself that you don't really want to work there.  You'll feel better about yourself.

I thought being a mustachian was about optimizing quality of life, not chasing after name-brand material bullshit. Sometimes the desire to work for a specific Shiny Amazing company is just another version of chasing after name-brand material bullshit. The FAANGs are a prime example (today).

I think it's more geared towards stuff like toaster ovens, not what you do for a career.

[mm1970]

I had to google FANG.  But I was thinking, that's just Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google, right?

Yes, for those of you like me who were not sure.

[Maenad]

And Apple, which is why it's sometimes FAANG.

[Paul der Krake]

FANG companies isn't where you go if you want money as a developer. You move to a shitty country like Dubai with no income tax and rake in 600k or more.

But plenty of devs break 300k when senior enough, and you don't even have to be in California:
https://www.levels.fyi/

[jaysee]

But plenty of devs break 300k when senior enough, and you don't even have to be in California:
https://www.levels.fyi/

Those figures are pretty heavy in stock, but still I see what you mean. (And those companies probably won't all tank together at the same time anyway.)

The coding tests intimidate me, but maybe it's just a matter of slowly chipping away at dummy coding exercises until I feel confident enough to apply for a real position.

[jaysee]

If you can't get a job at FANG, just rationalize to yourself that you don't really want to work there.  You'll feel better about yourself.

I thought being a mustachian was about optimizing quality of life, not chasing after name-brand material bullshit. Sometimes the desire to work for a specific Shiny Amazing company is just another version of chasing after name-brand material bullshit. The FAANGs are a prime example (today).

I think it's more geared towards stuff like toaster ovens, not what you do for a career.

I've seen some "flashy" companies advertise lower wages because they know that their brand alone is enough to attract people.

I'm skeptical of such propositions. Unless you're in a field where branding is hugely important, it sounds like just a way for employers to rip you off with salaries.

However, maybe big tech is different, as they seem to consistently pay well even for new joiners.

[Maenad]

In my experience, when companies start talking about only hiring "the best" or how the project you've been put on is all staffed by rockstars, etc, they're stroking egos at the expense of the employees' health. Big salaries aren't so big when you're expected to work 80+ hours/week, and one's relationships and physical/mental health pay a serious toll for that kind of workload.

[2sk22]

In my experience, when companies start talking about only hiring "the best" or how the project you've been put on is all staffed by rockstars, etc, they're stroking egos at the expense of the employees' health. Big salaries aren't so big when you're expected to work 80+ hours/week, and one's relationships and physical/mental health pay a serious toll for that kind of workload.

Absolutely agree. Burning out employees is not sustainable.

I have to say that tech interview techniques are becoming completely ridiculous. There's a lot of what I think of as "Google envy". I guess the reasoning is that if Google conducts tough interviews, then their own interviews have to be twice as hard. Someone told me recently that they were asked to work on a dynamic programming problem for a web app development position!

I have conducted a lot of tech interviews over the years and I always try to be as helpful to the candidate as possible. The programming task I assign is pretty trivial and of the "FizzBizz" variety (http://wiki.c2.com/?FizzBuzzTest). I've never found the need to make candidates do complex problems. As it is, interviews are nerve racking - no point in scaring away perfectly good candidates.

[flipboard]

In my experience, when companies start talking about only hiring "the best" or how the project you've been put on is all staffed by rockstars, etc, they're stroking egos at the expense of the employees' health. Big salaries aren't so big when you're expected to work 80+ hours/week, and one's relationships and physical/mental health pay a serious toll for that kind of workload.

Where is this 80 hours/week BS coming from?

[Spoonsor]

If you can't get a job at FANG, just rationalize to yourself that you don't really want to work there.  You'll feel better about yourself.

You might be surprised by the number of developers who do not aspire to FANG.

This topic reminds me of my favorite cartoon, which is based on a commencement address by Bill Watterson, and illustrated by someone mimicing Watterson's style.

https://zenpencils.com/comic/128-bill-watterson-a-cartoonists-advice/

[PaulMaxime]

12 years ago I switched from very well-paid Defense contractor to Google engineer. My quality of life increased substantially too. No more security clearances. Nice weather. Good food. Slightly longer work hours but lots of great perks (actually the perks are insane. Anyone who worked a "real" job before would have their minds blown). After 9 months of commuting on the shuttle I found a position in the SF office and could bike or walk to work.

My net worth has now increased by >10X and that's including living in San Francisco where cost of living is the highest in the nation.

I even took a pay cut to move out here. Google pays a lot in stock and overall my compensation was much higher but it was a bit of a shock to move from LCOL Baltimore to VHCOL SF.

I left Google almost 4 years ago to join a startup that has been very successful because I didn't have to worry about paying my bills.

It's a counterintuitive way to reach FI, I suppose but you can only cut back so much. There's always more money to be made.

[vertkurt]

In my experience, when companies start talking about only hiring "the best" or how the project you've been put on is all staffed by rockstars, etc, they're stroking egos at the expense of the employees' health. Big salaries aren't so big when you're expected to work 80+ hours/week, and one's relationships and physical/mental health pay a serious toll for that kind of workload.

Absolutely agree. Burning out employees is not sustainable.

I have to say that tech interview techniques are becoming completely ridiculous. There's a lot of what I think of as "Google envy". I guess the reasoning is that if Google conducts tough interviews, then their own interviews have to be twice as hard. Someone told me recently that they were asked to work on a dynamic programming problem for a web app development position!

I have conducted a lot of tech interviews over the years and I always try to be as helpful to the candidate as possible. The programming task I assign is pretty trivial and of the "FizzBizz" variety (http://wiki.c2.com/?FizzBuzzTest). I've never found the need to make candidates do complex problems. As it is, interviews are nerve racking - no point in scaring away perfectly good candidates.

My goal is to work at Google. I set my goal high from the beginning. I'm in a bit of a career transition where I'm currently still working but learning Front end skills on my own. Been at it for 5 months at 5+ hours a day going through HTML, CSS, JS basics. These interviews are what freak me out the most b/c I don't have a degree in CompSci or a background in it, although I am a STEM major. If anyone has any tips I'd love to hear them as it's all getting to be overwhelming and I think it's hard to get involved when everyone around you is so much better.

[2sk22]

My goal is to work at Google. I set my goal high from the beginning. I'm in a bit of a career transition where I'm currently still working but learning Front end skills on my own. Been at it for 5 months at 5+ hours a day going through HTML, CSS, JS basics. These interviews are what freak me out the most b/c I don't have a degree in CompSci or a background in it, although I am a STEM major. If anyone has any tips I'd love to hear them as it's all getting to be overwhelming and I think it's hard to get involved when everyone around you is so much better.

The best way to get over interview jitters is to actually go for a few interviews. For each subfield within computing, there are a few typical questions that interviewers love to ask so by interviewing a few times, you will get exposed to them. This will be a lot easier if you're located near one of the tech hubs (SV, NYC, Boston etc) as many companies there are on the look out for people. Think of the first few interviews as practice shots.