The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: MissStache on March 14, 2014, 06:58:13 AM
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I've noticed a few case studies lately where people are in debt but are still tithing large amounts to their church, but the recent one where the couple is almost $350K in debt and giving $400/month to their church left me so befuddled that I had to come over and post more about this (and I didn't want to derail their case study topic).
I'm not religious and wasn't raised in a religious household, but I did grow up in the South, so I've been around a lot of churchgoers. I don't want to say that I "get" religion, but I am familiar with the system, as it were. But I don't understand tithing. Can someone please explain to me where this practice comes from and why some churches require it and some don't. Is it mandated by the scripture? Is this something that is part of all religions or is it just a Christian thing?
And if you tithe, where is the balance between your religious obligations and your obligations to your future well-being?
And I am not trying to be snarky or judgemental- I'm genuinely interested in learning more about this practice.
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I'm also not religious, but remember 'your future well being' if you are religious is your IMMORTAL SOUL FOR ALL ETERNITY, so having to scrape by in this little hop called life before you are placed FOR ALL ETERNITY wouldn't really enter the equation? Also, I believe (religious people correct me if I'm wrong) that it is part of a faith thing, you are trusting God to take care of you by you giving a sacrifice (money in this case, instead of say a lamb that could feed your family). It's a show of faith.
Also I've heard religious folks say that all money is God's, so they are just giving him some of his money back in thanks for all the wonder and gifts he bestows etc etc.
You have to admit, if you believe in the religious world view, 10% here or there is really insignificant compared to the bigger, eternal, picture.
/edit: Also, from a purely rational point of view, a lot of people get a lot of emotional and other support from their church congregations. It is their social circle and extended family of sorts, and the church can't survive without income. This may be vulgar to church-goers, but the tithe is kind of like a voluntary membership fee to keep the place running that gives them so much joy, support, etc.
/final edit: Finally, I just want to say I don't really judge it either way. Matters of faith and prioritization are very personal and while I don't tithe as I'm not religious, I'm just as sure any religious person could look at my spending and find something that wasn't important to them and perhaps would be viewed as wasteful.
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Tithing means a tenth, and in some religious cultures (Mormons, for example) the expectation is that a churchgoer contribute a tenth of their gross pay to the Church.
This certainly makes sense on some levels. Churches aren't free and come with plenty of costs, so it is reasonable to expect support from those who attend. In addition to that, funds from tithing support many programs that Churches fund, from missionary work to food kitchens.
A very old friend of mine tithes regularly although he has always been paycheck to paycheck. While I fundamentally don't agree with his economic decisions, I know he feelks that tithing comes first and everything else comes second. There is no debating personal priorities there, if you truly believe your spiritual well-being comes in part from supporting the Church then that is what you do.
I am not a religious person either so I just politely look on and refuse to comment. He's a big boy, he knows what he is doing.
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Also not religious, but I am interested enough to read most of the case studies where this applies to see what the justification is.
The most common themes, in non-religious wording:
-It isn't their money, it's God's and the tithe is basically a tax to be able to use the money
-Honestly believe that the church would take care of them should they ever be in truly dire straits, so to them it is saving and being smart about the future (I've seen churches do this and I've seen them hang the tithers out to dry)
-There is some scriptural passage which can be interpreted as a command to tithe, but it is my understanding that the 10% is not actually in the Bible. This is the most common actual Biblical reference I've seen, but it ranks right up there with wearing mixed fibers in the obscure cherry-picking category for me.
-Well being of the church so they can have lots of tax free money, combined with a massive marketing campaign to facilitate community, sunk cost, and personal investment in the operational activities of the church.
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Tithing originates from the Old Testament, and can be found in Leviticus, Deuteronomy and elsewhere. The Israelites were commanded to give a tenth of their income (grain, cattle, whatever) "to the Lord". This tenth was used to satisfy the physical needs of the priests and temple. The New Testament also discusses being faithful in giving.
Today, people tithe for two reasons (in my experience/opinion):
1. Cultural, the religious situation they are in expects them to do so and they comply out of a sense of duty and/or fear (of being though less of or fear of being called out).
2. People believe that they ought to honor God and the blessings that have been bestowed on them by returning a tenth part to their religious organization.
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In the Old Testament one of the laws God gave his people was the tithe, which was giving back the "First fruits" of your labor. This was to help provide for the priests. Paul in the New Testament speaks of giving as you're able and that God loves a cheerful giver. The money is given to help the church and show thanks to God for what he has provided. People are to give what God puts on their heart to give now, though some still believe the minimum is 10% of your income.
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Also, I don't know how familiar you are with the books of religious institutions, but I've seen many thanks to work. It's really, really expensive to run a house of worship. Even just keeping the building in decent repair, keeping the lights/heat on, and paying a minister's salary adds up. If it's an older church, it costs even more.
I should probably clarify I'm not necessarily saying the churches don't need or deserve the money (though I will never, ever forget the pastor of a megachurch in my hometown who drove a Porsche- revolting!) and I know that for the most part they are spending the money on worthy and necessary things. Thanks to an ill-matched relationship with a Sub-Deacon in a 150-year-old Eastern Orthodox church (what in the hell was I thinking!?), I'm strangely familiar with the unending expenses of running a church.
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Also not religious, but practically speaking I understand the average church's need for tithes. You can't maintain a building and feed the people who work in it on nothing. If the church you attend provides value to your life and supports a community of people you want to be around, giving something is reasonable and decent.
But still.... if you have an extreme debt problem, it also seems reasonable that you would adjust your donation appropriately.
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Now that is a mismatch! Orthodox Christians are hardcore. I'm sure you're lovely, but I'm surprised someone that religiously committed would be dating someone who wasn't.
I wish I could say we were both young and foolish. Perhaps I was since I was in my early 20s, but he was in the 30s and should have known better! Well, it was a valuable life lesson and overall a pretty great learning experience, so I can't say I regret it. Not a lot, at least.
And thank you for brining up gleaning. I LOVE the idea of gleaning and I've always been upset that this hasn't continued in our modern culture, especially given the automation of harvesting that leaves so much behind! Something about that (literal) homegrown charity has always really moved me.
PS- thanks to the "what's in a name" thread I know the story behind your username, but I can't help but call you "Sir Pent's Tooth" in my head and imagine you as sitting at King Arthur's round table! It makes me giggle.
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My wife and I just had this discussion recently.
We are religious and we attend church. We both want to contribute a 10th of our gross income, purely for the fact that the church requires money to operate, and we have an abundance of money. There is also religious obligation to give money (to church or to charity).
However we are in debt, and absolutely cannot afford to give 10%. So we have decided to give only $40 a month. That's $10 each Sunday. In this way we are 'doing what we can' within our means.
As we pay off debt and make more money we will increase that amount until we get to 10%.
I agree with you that if you are giving a wack-ton of money to your church but you have huge debt something is unbalanced.
I'm now going to quote Ip man.
"If a man can't pay the rent, he has now business learning kung foo" - Ip man
Basically you need to take care of yourself first, God wants what is best for you.
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I am a Christian but not a theologian (and it's been a few years since my most recent Bible study) but I will do my best.
In general, giving is based on two principles: first, we and all that we have and are come from God and belong to God, so giving helps us remember that. Second, as God's children, we have the obligation to care for those who are in need with the gifts that He has given us. Several of the other postings mention the cost of running churches and providing services to members, and tithing does cover that, but for most churches (at least those in the big Protestant denominations) tithe money also goes to support the needy of the community (meals for the homeless, after-school programs), either through church-run programs or by grants to community organizations and, through the denomination, international giving to medical clinics, clean water projects, etc..
Giving a tenth, to my understanding, goes back to Jewish custom of Biblical times. The 10% figure is mentioned in the Old Testament. The New Testament, either Gospels (the stories and teaching of Jesus himself) or Acts/Epistles (the stories and teaching of the early disciples) never specifically gives a 10% number for appropriate giving although it makes it clear that a Christian should share what he or she has cheerfully and generously. In fact, a couple of verses (2 Corinthians 8:12 For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.) and 2 Corinthians 9:7 (Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.) might seem to indicate that each Christian needs to decide for him or herself what the right gift is to give. Certainly Jesus often indicated that it was important to rethink Jewish tradition in the light of Christian principles instead of accepting long-time customs blindly.
Not all Christians or churches practice the 10% rule of giving, but many people find it to be a useful rule of thumb--much like auto-transfer to your savings account, choosing a standard figure to give at removes the struggle of temptation to be selfish that is present if you make a decision anew every week or month.
Now, the question of how much to give when you are in financial trouble is complicated. We have seen some true "hair on fire" situations on these boards--people who honestly do not bring in enough income to cover their legal obligations and take care of their families. Most pastors I know would say that in those cases, it's important to give something (even putting a dollar in the Salvation Army kettle) to remind ourselves of our obligations to God and each other, but the 10% level may not be the right choice at that time. But as we have seen with a lot of these case studies, there is almost always fat in the budget. If you are going out to dinner and on vacation, but you say you can't afford to give, it's time to be more honest with yourself. Then there is the question of what to do if you are paying down debt early (which many Mustachians consider to be a "hair on fire" situation.) Now, you could argue that by paying off debt quickly and saving on the interest, you will then have more resources from which to give later. However, the truth about humanity is that we are always tempted to selfishness, and it's very easy to make promises to God that we don't actually fulfill so for some the best choice is to tithe in the moment even if it means a smaller gift overall. You can also argue that paying down debt faster than the legal obligation (to retire early, for instance) is a luxury, and that tithing needs to come ahead of that. Each person would have to pray on that and come to their own conclusions.
Overall, though, the idea of tithing is in some ways very Mustachian. MMM is always telling readers what utter luxury we live in, and he's right. Part of the Christian obligation is to practice good stewardship with what we've been given, and choosing to live below our means, make good financial decisions like not racking up consumer debt, and question the lifestyle that most Americans accept without a lot of thought are all part of good stewardship. It's just a question of what we do with what's left over.
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I've attended churches that preached tithing as a scriptural doctrine that must be followed and others that taught to follow your heart with giving. Places that made a show of passing the plate and others that simply put a lock box on a back wall. As others have mentioned, tithing was a practice started in the Old Testament scriptures as a thank offering before the tabernacle was set-up and later instituted as an obligation to support the priests of God and the needy in the community.
Personally, I've never believed that this was a continuing obligation for the Christian church. It's not supported by the known teachings of Christ. The tabernacle is no longer the way we have access to and forgiveness from God. Modern churches have very little in common in appearance and function to the ancient tabernacle. "The Church" is the community of believers that support each other's needs on a personal basis, not a building. Church as a building with staff and programs isn't scriptural or necessary. So I don't support it with tithes, gifts or my time.
Now, many modern Christians regard their church as their support group. They even have a catch-phrase: They're "Doing life" with such-and-such church. Many pay tithes as a sort of membership due. For free counseling, free babysitting, free events, lots of free entertainment, insurance for life's downturns via a food and clothing pantry/meals on wheels, sick visits, plus a network for advice/borrowing/help and more, it's not necessarily a bad deal. I just hate seeing people using their churches this way and then patting themselves on the back for their sacrifice through tithing. I wonder if they'd still send that check every month if all the services they used suddenly disappeared and the money went strictly to those in full-time ministry and to distribute to the poor at the ministers sole discretion and knowledge.
Now, if I was a person of faith who believed in tithing as a doctrine and a promise I make to God, I would definitely continue to give even if I was in debt-repayment mode. My promise to someone else shouldn't be broken just because I need to clean up my own mess.
Ultimately it's an issue that is between a person and God.
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i am religious, i attend church and i tithe.
for me when i was in debt i tithed because i was walking in faith that the lord will provide. and not in a "i only have 100 bucks and am gonna blow it on beer and then somehow God will make sure my light bill gets paid" but in a "God I'm trusting in you and this is a covenant you have with me and I'm sowing seed, and giving you back what is yours and you will return it to me in greater amount"
because i had faith and because my faith is important to me it worked. some people can say that it was me working hard to make opportunities for myself, but i believe that God opened doors for me.
but i also believe and so does my Pastor that you can tithe of your time. when i was in super hair on fire emergency debt repayment mode i volunteered a lot with children's church, i joined the recovery ministry, and in general spent a lot of time helping out doing things so that the church didn't have to pay other people, like cleaning the bathrooms after service. our pastor tells us that God doesn't want you to be stupid, and he wants you to provide for yourself, don't tithe and then call the church complaining you can't pay rent. instead give what you can, whether that be 10 dollars or your time.
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Formerly religious here (Catholic) and there were many, many points over the years that we wouldn't have been able to take care of basic needs of my kids if we'd practiced 10% tithing.
At least in the West, I doubt most churches are terribly efficient as charities go. The physical infrastructure is a huge cost in addition to expected costs like administration, etc.
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I'm a Christian and ace pretty much nailed it. It's a tangible act of faith to trust that the Lord will provide. In OT times, Israelites were commanded to tithe 10%, or their first fruits of the season. There was no guarantee that the harvest would be plentiful and abundant, but God asked that they would trust Him though they may not have a big harvest, they would remember that man doesn't live on bread alone and that God is faithful to provide for them.
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OT, but I've often felt that in terms of sheer bang-for-buck, Mormons get a LOT for their tithes. The church runs its own internal welfare system, you get heavily reduced tuition to a very good university, a very supportive community, and a wealth of networking/social opportunities.
All of that is true, at least in the areas of the U.S. I've lived (the Mormons in Japan when I was a missionary there seemed to get a much poorer deal). I had scholarships, but my wife wouldn't have been able to graduate without student loans if not for the cheap tuition at BYU.
Many people I know claim to believe that they actually have more money because they tithed - as if God would smite them with financial catastrophe if they didn't. Anecdotes abound of not having enough money to pay both tithing and rent/tuition/grocery bill, choosing to pay tithing first, and receiving unexpected windfalls to cover the shortfall.
Net vs. gross 10% is often debated. From what I've seen, many of those who say gross have a low or negative tax rate anyway. Personally, I think the argument for gross is easily refuted with the example of a self-employed individual with business expenses that use up 90% of revenue; income taxes on wages are an expense of being in the business of selling your labor. In Mormon-dom, at least, there is no official word on this issue (and, in fact, the Mormon scripture that reinstates tithing as a modern requirement actually says "interest" instead of "income," though it's usually interpreted as income).
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How do something like 401k contributions figure into a tithing obligation, then? It reduces your tax burden, but also your net pay. Do you tithe on that money when you pull it out at retirement age?
Personally I treat all retirement accounts (both 401k and Roth) as deferred income, and don't tithe on it now. I also don't tithe on unrealized capital gains in taxable accounts with the same reasoning. I haven't discussed those particular issues with anyone else, though, so I don't know if that's a common approach.
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wow i was just googling about tithing too.. i'd like to find out more about tithing:
how do you tithe? - is it automatic deduction? or writing a check at payday?
where do you tithe? - does it really have to go to your church only? can i help a family and call it tithing? or give to a charity close to me?
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It's a matter of paying God first, above any other creditor. In the Old Testament, God lays claim to the first tenth, and wants it paid as the income comes in. In the New Testament, Christians are called to give as much as they can cheerfully give, with the implication that this should be more than 10%.
The Bible also contains many, many admonitions against debt.
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I currently tithe 10% to my church of my net take home which does not count the deductions from my paycheck like health, HSA, and 401k. When I eventually start tapping my 401k I plan to tithe off of that as well so I'm also treating it as deferred income. I use YNAB and am a month ahead so on the first of Sunday of the month I write a check at church for 10% of what I took home last month. I tithe to my Church because I get a lot out of their ministry and want to support them. I tithed even when I was in debt but I wasn't in that big of a hole and I could afford to tithe, if I was in a huge hole that may have changed. I see tithing as a faith thing but also a way to thank God for all that he has blessed me with and every time I write out that check it reminds me how good we really have it. Heck, not only do we have enough to meet all of our needs and save around 40-50%, but we can also give to our Church and help others that are in need. I look forward to the day where we can not only tithe with our money but also tithe with our time and help out more.
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Some families write a monthly check with their bills (and the bigger churches may even be set up to handle everything electronically) while others give weekly into the offering plate. It probably partially depends on whether you are salaried, so you know in advance what the income is going to look like, or you have to wait and see what your paycheck is. Whether your gift went entirely to your church, or to a mix of charities, or even private gifts, would depend on each person and their conscience. Media portrayals of any faith tend not to represent the variety of practice, and that is definitely true of Christianity. Christians are incredibly varied on their practices and how they interpret scripture, and belonging to a particular denomination or church community doesn't mean you do things the "standard" way even for that subgroup.
The other aspect of tithing that I forgot to mention earlier is that for married people, agreeing on a standard percentage may be easier than discussing or negotiating every gift.
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For those who tithe to the church rather than just in general, why do you tithe to your church rather than a charity? I understand completely the desire to be thankful and give back, but where I get lost is sending that to the church rather than directly to the charity/ministry. It's like paying investment fees when all you want is to invest, why go with the higher overhead plan rather than the index fund for maximum giving? Especially when it is the management at the higher fee company telling you to invest in the first place.
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For those who tithe to the church rather than just in general, why do you tithe to your church rather than a charity? I understand completely the desire to be thankful and give back, but where I get lost is sending that to the church rather than directly to the charity/ministry. It's like paying investment fees when all you want is to invest, why go with the higher overhead plan rather than the index fund for maximum giving? Especially when it is the management at the higher fee company telling you to invest in the first place.
Great question! I go to a verrryyy small church (like 25 adults per Sunday?) and our pastor does a lot of ministry/counseling in the church and around the community. The reason I tithe to the Church first is because they facilitate a lot of my spiritual growth and I want to support that so it can continue and be done for others as well. This is how I have always viewed tithing to a Church versus a charity. However, most Churches that I have attended have a lot of charity type outreaches like food pantries and things like that.
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wow i was just googling about tithing too.. i'd like to find out more about tithing:
how do you tithe? - is it automatic deduction? or writing a check at payday?
where do you tithe? - does it really have to go to your church only? can i help a family and call it tithing? or give to a charity close to me?
I recently switched to giving appreciated stock, which I'll probably do roughly once every other year while I'm in the 25% to maximize the tax benefit. The church probably has to be a certain size/administrative level to be able to accept that. The Mormon church being what it is, when I emailed to ask about it I got a reply with full, specific instructions on how to do it with Vanguard within 2 minutes. They're very eager to get their hands on the tithe!
Before that I wrote a check each payday - probably 95% of the paper checks I've written in my life were for tithing. If there's a market crash and I don't have appreciated stock when I need it I'll write a check then too.
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For those who tithe to the church rather than just in general, why do you tithe to your church rather than a charity? I understand completely the desire to be thankful and give back, but where I get lost is sending that to the church rather than directly to the charity/ministry. It's like paying investment fees when all you want is to invest, why go with the higher overhead plan rather than the index fund for maximum giving? Especially when it is the management at the higher fee company telling you to invest in the first place.
Great question! I go to a verrryyy small church (like 25 adults per Sunday?) and our pastor does a lot of ministry/counseling in the church and around the community. The reason I tithe to the Church first is because they facilitate a lot of my spiritual growth and I want to support that so it can continue and be done for others as well. This is how I have always viewed tithing to a Church versus a charity. However, most Churches that I have attended have a lot of charity type outreaches like food pantries and things like that.
Interesting. I don't have the same view of churches, but I do follow your logic.
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I personally really like Dave Ramsey's take on Tithing (despite my dislike of his take on where to invest).
wrt tithing, his take is Get Your Shit Together first because you messed up. There are all sorts of things in the Bible which say "don't go into debt," "being in debt is being a slave," "if you are in debt you need to work as hard as a gazelle being chased by a hunter to get out." Because you are currently in debt, you messed up in the eyes of God and the Bible. So if you want to get back in good graces, better to take care of your mess up first and then work on your financial obligation to the church later when you are able to give.
At the same time, it is God's money, he trusted it to you. You bought a jetski?!?!? On Credit?!?! With money loaned to you by God?!?!(http://youtu.be/6E0FVr0Uzf0?t=6m32s)
tldr: Dave Ramsey says get your shit together and out of debt because debt is a sin, then pay your tithe to the church, then you can buy a jetski.
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For those who tithe to the church rather than just in general, why do you tithe to your church rather than a charity? I understand completely the desire to be thankful and give back, but where I get lost is sending that to the church rather than directly to the charity/ministry. It's like paying investment fees when all you want is to invest, why go with the higher overhead plan rather than the index fund for maximum giving? Especially when it is the management at the higher fee company telling you to invest in the first place.
For some (and that includes us) it's because the church says that's what God says to do.
I recognize the conflict of interest there. Believe me, I've thought about it a lot.
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For those who tithe to the church rather than just in general, why do you tithe to your church rather than a charity? I understand completely the desire to be thankful and give back, but where I get lost is sending that to the church rather than directly to the charity/ministry. It's like paying investment fees when all you want is to invest, why go with the higher overhead plan rather than the index fund for maximum giving? Especially when it is the management at the higher fee company telling you to invest in the first place.
Great question! I go to a verrryyy small church (like 25 adults per Sunday?) and our pastor does a lot of ministry/counseling in the church and around the community. The reason I tithe to the Church first is because they facilitate a lot of my spiritual growth and I want to support that so it can continue and be done for others as well. This is how I have always viewed tithing to a Church versus a charity. However, most Churches that I have attended have a lot of charity type outreaches like food pantries and things like that.
Interesting. I don't have the same view of churches, but I do follow your logic.
I guess I should have stated that every Church is different and this is how I feel about the current one that I am a member of. I know of Churches where the pastor has totally abused the Church financially and I would be very hesitant to tithe to a church that was not open about their financials. Now that I think about it, if I went to a larger Church that had a large excess of funds I would consider and pray about donating to a charity rather than the Church or maybe do a split between Church and charity. But anyways, I was trying to say that my first statement is how I feel about my current Church but that would most likely change if I switched Churches....
You ever say a word so much that it starts to sounds extremely funny? Church..... hahaha
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It seems strange to me. If you're in financial straits, why not donate some of your free time to a church activity instead of giving them money? I grew up Catholic (now attempting to recover from my guilt addiction) and tithing was never part of the religion. They asked for money to pay off sex abuse victims, but that's it.
I understand asking people for $20 here or there to support the building or the pastors pay, but why does a church need 10% of everyone's dough? It would seem that there is very little community good that requires more than volunteer time to complete. Food and healthcare is already covered by federal programs like snap and medicaid. The big changes usually come from just volunteering. Teaching low income kids to read, or how to get into a college. Swinging a hammer. Cleaning up a park. Voter registration drives. None of those things require money.
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It depends. Some people do give tithes straight to charities. If you want your church to be the most efficient way of getting money into the hands of the needy, it's never going to be, because stained glass windows don't feed people's bodies.
But some component of poverty is behavioral, and a lot of social dysfunction is behavioral as well. A religious community can produce real positive externalities in terms of benignly pressuring people to engage in more socially productive and wealth-enhancing behavior, and straight up cash charity and government agencies can't always do that.
Divorce and single motherhood are a great way to both tank your net worth and make things much, much harder on the kids, and my church not only discourages both, but provides programs and support for people who are in those situations or at risk of being in them. There's also a fair amount of community interest in helping un/underemployed people find more lucrative work, including people with disabilities that tend to make them unemployable. (A surprising number of synagogues seem to keep someone with Downs Syndrome or another disorder on the payroll to shelve prayer books and clean the sanctuary and generally do basic tasks, when they might otherwise be on social welfare programs.) Social capital, which is what religious institutions are good at cultivating, is very valuable and also very hard to quantify.
Tithing is giving money to God, so it's not unreasonable to send it to the institution that you think most directly supports worshiping God.
You seem to be saying three different things here.
1. Any middle man institution will make giving inefficient (whether that's KIVA or a church, same concept). Totally agree.
2. Positive influence is in the eye of the beholder, but again, I see the logic in the bolded above (emphasis mine) if those are your beliefs.
3. I think where I get lost is the whole giving something physical to a supernatural being, because it is by definition being controlled by men rather than by whichever god you pledge allegiance to. There also seems to be a disconnect between tithing to charity and tithing to further the support and worship of your particular flavor of deity. I imagine having faith in said deity would resolve this disconnect but as an outsider that's where my following the religious logic gets lost.
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Great question! I go to a verrryyy small church (like 25 adults per Sunday?) and our pastor does a lot of ministry/counseling in the church and around the community. The reason I tithe to the Church first is because they facilitate a lot of my spiritual growth and I want to support that so it can continue and be done for others as well. This is how I have always viewed tithing to a Church versus a charity. However, most Churches that I have attended have a lot of charity type outreaches like food pantries and things like that.
Interesting. I don't have the same view of churches, but I do follow your logic.
I guess I should have stated that every Church is different and this is how I feel about the current one that I am a member of. I know of Churches where the pastor has totally abused the Church financially and I would be very hesitant to tithe to a church that was not open about their financials. Now that I think about it, if I went to a larger Church that had a large excess of funds I would consider and pray about donating to a charity rather than the Church or maybe do a split between Church and charity. But anyways, I was trying to say that my first statement is how I feel about my current Church but that would most likely change if I switched Churches....
You ever say a word so much that it starts to sounds extremely funny? Church..... hahaha
Probably should have clarified: if you think religion is a net positive, or if you think your particular branch is the best way to improve your community, it makes a bit of sense. Small church vs. large church is a whole different conversation, but they all draw from the same playbook.
But yes, totally understand what you mean about saying (or typing) a word too many times :-)
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I don't go to church anywhere as much as I should BUT growing up in tough times my parents week to week gave what they could and the Church was thankful. I can not say for certain but the 10% is a goal but I don't think the Church judges you if you are giving what you can. And as with anything there are churches I am sure that are more responsible with what they do with the money. The church we belonged to I felt poured that money right back into so many community programs.
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My father was my late grandmother's chosen representative, appointed by a Power of Attorney to act on her behalf, including spending her money. What's so ridiculous about appointing chosen representatives to spend money given to God in ways God would approve of?
There is nothing ridiculous about appointing chosen representatives, it's efficient for many things, but if you don't believe in god the last half of that sentence is a bit nonsensical. I was just trying to understand the reasoning behind tithing specifically to a church to distribute (or keep) as they please. If you are referring to the order of magnitude - more funds when collected, it makes perfect sense why someone who follows a religious doctrine would then tithe to their preferred chosen representative (the church/synagogue/denomination). If that chosen representative is their house of worship rather than the soup kitchen, then that is either an expression of valuation in the eye of the tither or the choice is not available to that particular religious brand. I get the latter, but wanted to understand more about the former.
*edited for spelling error
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I grew up in a rural (read: homogeneous conservative christian) area in a pretty serious Christian family (although I do not consider myself Christian at all, 0%). But if you're asking about the the emotional rational regarding tithing (even if you are in debt) I always heard it explained like this: "If you give what you have to God, God will give back to you even more. So even if you feel like you have very little money, if you just tithe, suddenly you'll see that God has given you even more- and you'll always have enough." I remember people saying this also like, "You'll never understand how it happens, but when you give more and more, God ends up making it up for you, and taking care of you."
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I grew up in a rural (read: homogeneous conservative christian) area in a pretty serious Christian family (although I do not consider myself Christian at all, 0%). But if you're asking about the the emotional rational regarding tithing (even if you are in debt) I always heard it explained like this: "If you give what you have to God, God will give back to you even more. So even if you feel like you have very little money, if you just tithe, suddenly you'll see that God has given you even more- and you'll always have enough." I remember people saying this also like, "You'll never understand how it happens, but when you give more and more, God ends up making it up for you, and taking care of you."
Ahh, the powers of ascribing rational events to supernatural forces. All those starving people in Africa must have been very naughty in a previous lifetime.
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I grew up in a rural (read: homogeneous conservative christian) area in a pretty serious Christian family (although I do not consider myself Christian at all, 0%). But if you're asking about the the emotional rational regarding tithing (even if you are in debt) I always heard it explained like this: "If you give what you have to God, God will give back to you even more. So even if you feel like you have very little money, if you just tithe, suddenly you'll see that God has given you even more- and you'll always have enough." I remember people saying this also like, "You'll never understand how it happens, but when you give more and more, God ends up making it up for you, and taking care of you."
That's pretty standard prosperity gospel. In some circles (especially evangelical) that is the logic, in others that would never fly. My priest would flip if you told him that.
Oh I'm sure it depends on where you are! "Christian" covers a LOT of territory. I was figuring that most people who tithe regardless of how much debt they have or other obligations were pretty likely to be from a more...shall we say, conservative and literal religoius background
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For those who tithe to the church rather than just in general, why do you tithe to your church rather than a charity? I understand completely the desire to be thankful and give back, but where I get lost is sending that to the church rather than directly to the charity/ministry. It's like paying investment fees when all you want is to invest, why go with the higher overhead plan rather than the index fund for maximum giving? Especially when it is the management at the higher fee company telling you to invest in the first place.
Everyone will have different perspectives...here's mine. I feel strongly that I need to give both for the church operations, in terms of paying the bills for a community that I am part of, and believe in, and that supports me, and giving to those in need. For me, giving through the church is an efficient way to do that because the people deciding to how to give to the needy have similar values to mine, and in my denomination are people I would choose (as a member who votes) to serve on that committee. That saves me a lot of time researching where to give on my own and managing that giving. Other people may not value that aspect of church membership and might choose to do their charitable giving separately so they can have more control.
If I didn't trust or agree with the people managing the giving (or the way the church manages its own money), first of all I'd probably choose a different church, or if I felt called to stay, I'd give more privately and less to the church. But that's not the case for me. And if there are groups that I want to support that the church doesn't, for whatever reason, I just give to them directly.
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I grew up in a rural (read: homogeneous conservative christian) area in a pretty serious Christian family (although I do not consider myself Christian at all, 0%). But if you're asking about the the emotional rational regarding tithing (even if you are in debt) I always heard it explained like this: "If you give what you have to God, God will give back to you even more. So even if you feel like you have very little money, if you just tithe, suddenly you'll see that God has given you even more- and you'll always have enough." I remember people saying this also like, "You'll never understand how it happens, but when you give more and more, God ends up making it up for you, and taking care of you."
That's pretty standard prosperity gospel. In some circles (especially evangelical) that is the logic, in others that would never fly. My priest would flip if you told him that.
Oh I'm sure it depends on where you are! "Christian" covers a LOT of territory. I was figuring that most people who tithe regardless of how much debt they have or other obligations were pretty likely to be from a more...shall we say, conservative and literal religoius background
As I said upthread, I have a pretty broad and deep knowledge of religion because of my job. In my experience that attitude is very common in circles where theology is a DIY affair. Generally, the more entrenched the religious bureaucracy is (see: Catholics, Orthodox Jews, Anglicans, Lutheran synods), the less likely that new interpretations will just show up. That's good and bad, but it's kept prosperity gospel out of the mainline churches and most of Orthodox Judaism.
That makes sense- they have diocese to answer to and can't just run off and do their own things.
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I have tithed when I was struggling and in debt and now that I have a nice savings account and no debt, I still tithe. We believe that when you tithe the 90 percent goes further than the 100 percent ever did. Maybe you have less maintenance issues, less doctor bills... I don't know. But what you do with that other 90 percent will determine your financial outcome, not the 10 percent that you give back to God. If you are a true believer, tithing is giving back a portion to God of all he has given you.
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wow i was just googling about tithing too.. i'd like to find out more about tithing:
how do you tithe? - is it automatic deduction? or writing a check at payday?
where do you tithe? - does it really have to go to your church only? can i help a family and call it tithing? or give to a charity close to me?
Tithing is giving 10 percent to the church. Gifting is anything given to the church above the 10 percent and also any gifts to charities, the poor, whatever. I don't think the tithe has to go to a church you belong to. Actually right now, I am tithing to the church I attend but it is not the church where I am an official member. Eventually, I will move my membership. Most people write a check whenever they get paid. I would be interested to know why you were googling about tithing. Doesn't sound like the usual search .
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In most churches I know there are a variety of ways of giving/tithing. You can put the money in cash in the plate as its passed around on Sunday. Many churches have a set of dated envelopes, that you can keep at home and put the cash in, then bring to church to put in the plate, so that your giving is planned and intentional and saving that last minute scramble in the purse as the plate approaches. Or you can write a cheque, or you can set up an automated electronic payment.
Interestingly, if you have an electronic payment, there is a bit of a quandary when the plate comes by. Do you let it go past, and not put anything in, since you've already made your donation but risk the judgement of others for not contributing? Or do you cave and put in a little something so you don't look bad? I've heard people rationalise that they still put something in the plate so as to be an encouragement to their brothers and sisters.
Since giving is supposed to be a private matter between you and God (somewhat at odds with the public passing of the plate), once you write a cheque or set up an electronic payment, how much you give becomes known at least to the treasurer and some I know find this difficult.
One of the finest minister's I've known always made it clear he only ever discussed de-identified financial figures with the treasurer. He actively did not want to know who was giving what.
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wow i was just googling about tithing too.. i'd like to find out more about tithing:
how do you tithe? - is it automatic deduction? or writing a check at payday?
where do you tithe? - does it really have to go to your church only? can i help a family and call it tithing? or give to a charity close to me?
Tithing is giving 10 percent to the church. Gifting is anything given to the church above the 10 percent and also any gifts to charities, the poor, whatever. I don't think the tithe has to go to a church you belong to. Actually right now, I am tithing to the church I attend but it is not the church where I am an official member. Eventually, I will move my membership. Most people write a check whenever they get paid. I would be interested to know why you were googling about tithing. Doesn't sound like the usual search .
Don't know about 2wakefulFlea, but I did a search because it seemed the quickest way to check "the original quotes in context" (e.g., as one might do to clarify Democrat/Republican spin on an issue).
To that end, an internet search on biblical basis for tithing returned some interesting links. Here are a few:
http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_tithe.html (http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_tithe.html)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14:22-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14:22-29)
http://www.gci.org/law/tithing (http://www.gci.org/law/tithing)
There may be other analyses that support a more literal tithing practice - these are just some of the first links checked. One can draw one's own conclusions.
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OT, but I've often felt that in terms of sheer bang-for-buck, Mormons get a LOT for their tithes. The church runs its own internal welfare system, you get heavily reduced tuition to a very good university, a very supportive community, and a wealth of networking/social opportunities.
All of that is true, at least in the areas of the U.S. I've lived (the Mormons in Japan when I was a missionary there seemed to get a much poorer deal). I had scholarships, but my wife wouldn't have been able to graduate without student loans if not for the cheap tuition at BYU.
Many people I know claim to believe that they actually have more money because they tithed - as if God would smite them with financial catastrophe if they didn't. Anecdotes abound of not having enough money to pay both tithing and rent/tuition/grocery bill, choosing to pay tithing first, and receiving unexpected windfalls to cover the shortfall.
Net vs. gross 10% is often debated. From what I've seen, many of those who say gross have a low or negative tax rate anyway. Personally, I think the argument for gross is easily refuted with the example of a self-employed individual with business expenses that use up 90% of revenue; income taxes on wages are an expense of being in the business of selling your labor. In Mormon-dom, at least, there is no official word on this issue (and, in fact, the Mormon scripture that reinstates tithing as a modern requirement actually says "interest" instead of "income," though it's usually interpreted as income).
Did you mean to say 10% of your interest or increase? "Increase" is how I understand it. We tithe similarly to you, including transferring stock to the church. My grandpa gave land for his tithing many years ago.
Mormons give 10% of their increase, volunteer their time for church jobs, clean their own buildings, volunteer at the cannery or at the church farm, and pay for their own missions. We fast every first Sunday and give a generous donation specifically to those in need. Why? Because we are commanded to, and are promised blessings to do so. And he only way you can test the theory is to do it. I know we have been blessed (spiritually and materially) and I feel like tithing is part of this.
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We fast every first Sunday (http://We fast every first Sunday)
One of the most inspirational stories I heard was of a group of Indonesian Christian women who fasted once a week and gave the money they saved on their food. Can't remember whether they gave to their church or some other worthy cause.
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I grew up in a rural (read: homogeneous conservative christian) area in a pretty serious Christian family (although I do not consider myself Christian at all, 0%). But if you're asking about the the emotional rational regarding tithing (even if you are in debt) I always heard it explained like this: "If you give what you have to God, God will give back to you even more. So even if you feel like you have very little money, if you just tithe, suddenly you'll see that God has given you even more- and you'll always have enough." I remember people saying this also like, "You'll never understand how it happens, but when you give more and more, God ends up making it up for you, and taking care of you."
Ahh, the powers of ascribing rational events to supernatural forces. All those starving people in Africa must have been very naughty in a previous lifetime.
I prefer to look at it this way. Say you have two individuals, one who is generous to a fault and one who is a scrooge. Who does the community look more fondly on? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the generous person gets tangible benefits down the road from being someone the community admires, perhaps that person gets a job based in part on the employer knowing what a great guy he is.
One could then interpret at that is God taking care of those that took care of God' house, another would say it was nothing more than "creating your own good luck" by being such a decent person in the first place.
This is how I believe Divinity is often credited for someone else's good fortunes. The flip side of the argument, why do bad things happen to good people, that's a tougher nut to crack. You often see a baseball player point at the sky when he hits a home run, conversely you never see him point down when he whiffs with the bases loaded.
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Did you mean to say 10% of your interest or increase? "Increase" is how I understand it.
Interest. (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119.4?lang=eng#2) But whenever anyone quotes that scripture over the pulpit they usually say it means income, occasionally increase. Increase would actually mean significantly less money if taken literally - how many people spend everything they make and never increase their net worth?
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We don't give to a church but have always given some $ & time to organizations that help people. When we were in debt we gave less then now but always give something. I personally believe that it is everyone's responsibility to help people if you possibly can. Not however, if you can not pay your own bills, etc.
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wow i was just googling about tithing too.. i'd like to find out more about tithing:
how do you tithe? - is it automatic deduction? or writing a check at payday?
where do you tithe? - does it really have to go to your church only? can i help a family and call it tithing? or give to a charity close to me?
Ask your local religious authority. Jews have a much more general obligation to charity (and a certain portion of their children's day school tuition can count toward it) and Christians vary a lot by group.
Jews do have a hierarchy of charities though, I believe its family first, then neighbors and those who live in your city, I believe it generalizes from there. I also believe that is just general recommendations, Jews can support any charitable cause as part of their tithing. It doesnt even *have* to be one's synagogue, I'm not even sure if membership fees would be considered 'charity'.
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I don't quite know why Im responding, because it's not helpful necessarily:) But I'll throw my hat into the ring and say, I'm totally against tithing, and religion in general. But even if you remove those two titles I think giving money to others when you don't have you own financial house in order is ridiculous bordering on maniacally illogical, and ineffective to the end goal of helping others. Although I'm all for helping with time and effort during this period...but of course that doesn't line the pockets of the charities and churches in question.
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I have to admit that I haven't read each post, so forgive me if I'm being repetitive. I just wanted to chime in that tithing is an act of faith. I'll be honest, I don't yet have enough faith for that. I wish I did!
Anyway, for those who are truly interested, I'm sharing my pastor's blog post this week. Last week's sermon was about tithes and offerings (which are two different things), and he discusses them here.
If you choose to read it, please be kind. This is a man who tries to put every single thing he preaches into practice. He's very honest about how hard that can be, because he is merely human. Anyway, I'm posting it FYI. It includes the scriptural references.
http://pccwired.net/2014/03/3-critical-questions/?utm_content=buffer563f4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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I don't quite know why Im responding, because it's not helpful necessarily:) But I'll throw my hat into the ring and say, I'm totally against tithing, and religion in general. But even if you remove those two titles I think giving money to others when you don't have you own financial house in order is ridiculous bordering on maniacally illogical, and ineffective to the end goal of helping others. Although I'm all for helping with time and effort during this period...but of course that doesn't line the pockets of the charities and churches in question.
I agree. I'm not an atheist or agnostic--I'm pretty active with a spiritual circle and have been for well over a decade--but I guess the difference is that I don't happen to view God or Spirit or whatever you want to call it as a realtor selling me a spot in Heaven for the low low price of just 10% of whatever I have.
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Also not religious, but practically speaking I understand the average church's need for tithes. You can't maintain a building and feed the people who work in it on nothing. If the church you attend provides value to your life and supports a community of people you want to be around, giving something is reasonable and decent.
But still.... if you have an extreme debt problem, it also seems reasonable that you would adjust your donation appropriately.
Good post, this about sums it up.
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Great question! I go to a verrryyy small church (like 25 adults per Sunday?) and our pastor does a lot of ministry/counseling in the church and around the community. The reason I tithe to the Church first is because they facilitate a lot of my spiritual growth and I want to support that so it can continue and be done for others as well. This is how I have always viewed tithing to a Church versus a charity. However, most Churches that I have attended have a lot of charity type outreaches like food pantries and things like that.
I'm in a similar situation. My church doesn't have a building- it hires out venues (different venues, in fact) for a morning and evening service. For a small to medium sized church this can be very effificent use of financial resources. It has a very high proportion of students (due to locality) and does a lot of practical help with them. It also has higher than anticipated proportion of people with erm... 'life issues' such as serious mental health issues. I would consider this the sign of a healthy church! The couple of people that are employed by the church do a lot of counselling, and it directly benefits people in the community (including non church members). I see the work done by our church as valuable. Many members of our church are not financially well off (e.g. students) and it is not expected they will tithe regularly, or at >10%.
I tithe partly because I should help financially support the church worker's (modest) wages, because I think there is a scriptural basis (as discussed above). BUT I think the most important reason for me to regularly tithe is to cultivate the attitude that 'the money doesn't control me, and I will gladly give it away'.
Also, additionally I donate to several (secular) charities. One of the reasons for chasing financial independence is I don't want anything preventing generosity.
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The flip side of the argument, why do bad things happen to good people, that's a tougher nut to crack. You often see a baseball player point at the sky when he hits a home run, conversely you never see him point down when he whiffs with the bases loaded.
The faithful will tell you that it's because they did not pray enough, hard enough, about the right thing, or at the right time. These folks always thank a deity when good happens but blame themselves when it doesn't...I guess that's just part of being faithful.
Also not religious, but practically speaking I understand the average church's need for tithes. You can't maintain a building and feed the people who work in it on nothing. If the church you attend provides value to your life and supports a community of people you want to be around, giving something is reasonable and decent.
To a point, yes. However, I would argue that a church doesn't need to be a multi million dollar building to provide a place for worship. In fact, if churches spent less money on the building, and more on helping people, then I could get behind the idea a little more.
I'll close with this: i'm by no means trying to bash anyone's viewpoint. I'm not religious myself and, to be honest, I grew up going to church but always wondered what the point of it all was. If religion and faith are a positive aspect of your life then, by all means, let it eat :)
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I'm a non-practising Muslim, so interesting to compare with the Islamic equivalent - zakat
Zakat is on financial assets, not income. You are meant to give 1/40th (2.5%) of your wealth to following categories:
Those living in absolute poverty
Those restrained because they cannot meet their basic needs
Non-Muslims who are sympathetic to Islam or wish to convert to Islam (so supporting missionary work)
People whom one is attempting to free from slavery or bondage. Also includes paying ransom
Those who have incurred overwhelming debts while attempting to satisfy their basic needs
Those working in God's way (so helping pay for local masjid & preacher, schools etc)
Children of the street / Travellers
Money is meant to be given directly, not via mosque/ intermediate charity.
The calculation for wealth is complex... You only have to pay zakat on the amount you have over what liquid savings you need for yourself. (defined in terms of gold/ silver, but a few hundred USD) Your house/ furniture/ clothing is exempt. Certain, productive assets are exempt - i.e. you wouldn't pay it on the value of a factory, but on the savings that that factory has allowed you to accumulate.
Zakat, plus tough usury laws, have been effective in stopping capital accumulation in islam - seen as one of the reasons why capitalism/ industrial revolution took place in Europe, rather than the more technically advanced (at the time) Middle East.
Obviously, if one is in overall debt (negative net worth), then zakat no longer applies
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My wife and I are Christians. We do not tithe. The tithe was a tax on the Israelites. I am also a strong believer that most church buildings are a waste of money. People would be better off meeting in houses, barns, strip malls, warehouses, etc, for corporate worship IMO. That money could be used for doing good rather than making sure I don't have to wear a jacket while I worship God. I would rather wear the jacket and be singing in the cold if we couldn't all fit into space that is already paid for.
So we give our time, skills, and effort. Because we played with fire and took on a bunch of student loans, we have to work tirelessly to pay them back. We strongly believe that debt is holding us back from serving the Lord, because we have to pay a certain amount each month to a bunch of banks. How do I answer God's call to go serve somewhere full time when I have a bunch of chains wrapped around me all the time? Why would he call me when I can't even devote 100% to him with this stupid debt?
We choose to volunteer instead of giving money. When we have our debts paid we will give financially. We will also invest it into our own mission we are going to start. I am excited for next year.
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Thank you everyone, for all of your thoughtful responses. I especially appreciate the Jewish and Muslim insights since I know so little about the practical aspects of those religions.
What an interesting and diverse community we have here in this little forum!
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Personally I treat all retirement accounts (both 401k and Roth) as deferred income, and don't tithe on it now. I also don't tithe on unrealized capital gains in taxable accounts with the same reasoning. I haven't discussed those particular issues with anyone else, though, so I don't know if that's a common approach.
That's how I do it, too. But it's probably just the two of us. I bet you don't deduct your commuting expenses though!
I like what Bono said "The God I worship isn't short of cash, mister!" He's just left a large chunk of it in my custody.
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The faithful will tell you that it's because they did not pray enough, hard enough, about the right thing, or at the right time. These folks always thank a deity when good happens but blame themselves when it doesn't...I guess that's just part of being faithful.
To a point, yes. However, I would argue that a church doesn't need to be a multi million dollar building to provide a place for worship. In fact, if churches spent less money on the building, and more on helping people, then I could get behind the idea a little more.
Your first point is incredibly untrue of my faith (Christianity). Ann Voskamp (who wrote One Thousand Gifts) has a blog with a huge following that addresses that very issue-praising God at all times. I have never heard any Christian leader (pastor, book author, etc) imply what you are claiming.
Most churches I have been around have been simple structures with little $ spent on decor. The one I am most familiar with has fundraisers for that purpose, and the money doesn't come from tithe. I know that in centuries of old the church spent a lot on beautiful buildings, but I don't see that being the case now.
In reference to your first point: I heard those phrases plenty in my youth. While i'm sure you had a different upbringing and have different beliefs, I disagree that either one of us can blanket all of Christianity with one viewpoint. I retract the concreteness of my original point and suggest that some believe those principles.
Pat Robertson: Tornadoes Could Have Been Stopped If People Had Prayed (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/05/pat-robertson-tornadoes-prayer_n_1321686.html)
Yes, I cherry picked this article but it illustrates the point that each religious 'leader' interprets their deity differently.
In reference to your second point: i'll agree that there are congregations that worship in simple or borrowed buildings. However, there is a growing trend to build new and very large structures for hosting worship services. These structures are expensive to build and maintain and, while the construction costs may have come from fundraisers and donations, I would think the maintenance and operating costs are covered by the monies received through tithe. A smaller, less ornate building would have lower costs.
I'll also agree that churches can be magnificent structures with great appeal to many. They are, as serpentstooth explained, designed to stand apart. But where is the line between a grandiose building and support for the parishioners and community?
Another cherry picked example: Architecture review: First Baptist of Dallas builds a $130 million corporate behemoth (http://www.dallasnews.com/entertainment/columnists/mark-lamster/20130629-architecture-review-first-baptist-of-dallas-builds-a-130-million-corporate-behemoth.ece?ssimg=1082774#ssStory1082792)
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Never grew up religious but do see the good that comes from contributing to charity. That said, I tend to take the delayed gratification view when it comes to charity giving. Instead of donating from each paycheck, slowly invest that money and build your own personal charity stach of sorts. In 15 years the charity stach can provide that monthly amount on it's own for the rest of your life and several more lifetimes if it's managed properly.
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I grew up in a rural (read: homogeneous conservative christian) area in a pretty serious Christian family (although I do not consider myself Christian at all, 0%). But if you're asking about the the emotional rational regarding tithing (even if you are in debt) I always heard it explained like this: "If you give what you have to God, God will give back to you even more. So even if you feel like you have very little money, if you just tithe, suddenly you'll see that God has given you even more- and you'll always have enough." I remember people saying this also like, "You'll never understand how it happens, but when you give more and more, God ends up making it up for you, and taking care of you."
Ahh, the powers of ascribing rational events to supernatural forces. All those starving people in Africa must have been very naughty in a previous lifetime.
I prefer to look at it this way. Say you have two individuals, one who is generous to a fault and one who is a scrooge. Who does the community look more fondly on? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the generous person gets tangible benefits down the road from being someone the community admires, perhaps that person gets a job based in part on the employer knowing what a great guy he is.
One could then interpret at that is God taking care of those that took care of God' house, another would say it was nothing more than "creating your own good luck" by being such a decent person in the first place.
This is how I believe Divinity is often credited for someone else's good fortunes. The flip side of the argument, why do bad things happen to good people, that's a tougher nut to crack. You often see a baseball player point at the sky when he hits a home run, conversely you never see him point down when he whiffs with the bases loaded.
Yes, but the person that has good things happen to them because they're nice to people isn't having that happen because of god, it's happening because they followed a logical series of events. If I'm nice to people and network and I get a job, that's not because god smiled more on me than some other poor sap. That's because I followed a logical series of steps. I find it bizarre when people thank god for things that happen in their lives where it would seem god has no place. A great example is the inevitable athlete who after winning a major championship, mumbles a monosyllabic thank you to god for his team's championship. Does that mean that god likes say...Seattle more than Denver? Does god really care about professional sporting events when there are children dying in Syria?
Without getting into an analysis of religion, it would appear that god takes a fairly hands off approach to human affairs.
Otherwise, I don't understand why a church needs 10% of your money. From my experience, a lot of this money goes to proselytization efforts at home and abroad, needlessly large buildings, and political legislation (see the Mormon Church and prop 8). I applaud the money that goes to the poor but I've personally seen too many abuses over the years. I also don't like how many churches attempt to increase their membership in a sort of Amway like pyramid scheme.
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Thank you for that informative post. Also, okonomiyaki is delicious. I had the fortune of having it twice while I was in Japan.
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Thank God I'm atheist.
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Now, many modern Christians regard their church as their support group. They even have a catch-phrase: They're "Doing life" with such-and-such church. Many pay tithes as a sort of membership due. For free counseling, free babysitting, free events, lots of free entertainment, insurance for life's downturns via a food and clothing pantry/meals on wheels, sick visits, plus a network for advice/borrowing/help and more, it's not necessarily a bad deal.
OT, but I've often felt that in terms of sheer bang-for-buck, Mormons get a LOT for their tithes. The church runs its own internal welfare system, you get heavily reduced tuition to a very good university, a very supportive community, and a wealth of networking/social opportunities.
Yeah, but members give as much as they get because the church is 99% run on volunteering. Local clergy, bookkeepers, Sunday school teachers, etc. are all laymen who are called to these positions. The churches are even cleaned by members on a rotating schedule. If you need food from the Bishop's Storehouse, you can it yourself or rely on the volunteer work of others who can the stuff. That was one thing I really enjoyed about being raised Mormon: we volunteered A LOT. Not that non-Mormons don't volunteer, but there's a huge emphasis on service in that religion.
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Thank God I'm atheist.
Ohhh, I see what you did there!
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Thank God I'm atheist.
Amen to that.
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Thank you everyone, for all of your thoughtful responses. I especially appreciate the Jewish and Muslim insights since I know so little about the practical aspects of those religions.
What an interesting and diverse community we have here in this little forum!
agreed. I am fascinated by religion... briefly considered majoring in theology (and yes I believe in God but I'm not sure how else to categorize my religious beliefs at this time). you guys really have me thinking that after my student loans are dead (less than a year!!!) I should set up some kind of tithing-like system for regular charitable donations, instead of just arbitrarily donating to things when they tug at my heartstrings.
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I find it bizarre when people thank god for things that happen in their lives where it would seem god has no place. A great example is the inevitable athlete who after winning a major championship, mumbles a monosyllabic thank you to god for his team's championship. Does that mean that god likes say...Seattle more than Denver? Does god really care about professional sporting events when there are children dying in Syria?
Without getting into an analysis of religion, it would appear that god takes a fairly hands off approach to human affairs.
Definitely one of the mysteries of God open to debate -- just how much is He in control of human affairs, if at all? For those that believe in God, some believe every little thing can be attributed to His overall "plan", while others think it's a completely hands-off affair.
I don't personally subscribe to the belief that God controls every miniscule event, but playing devil's advocate, someone could argue that God does indeed prefer Seattle winning over Denver, and that it fits into a larger overall plan somehow. We might never understand that plan, or it may take years to see how the sequence of events unfolded for some greater good. So, it's not a question of God caring about football over kids dying in Syria -- it's all part of a gigantic, cosmic plan that we can't fathom, and which will unfold in His time, not ours. Seattle winning has an impact on millions of downstream events that are all part of His plan. Even trivial events have impacts down the line (like spilling your coffee and catching the next flight, thereby missing the plane crash), let alone Super Bowl victories.
Again, I don't subscribe to this idea above, but I'd say we can't dismiss it as being silly. Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle: God intervenes in the lives of believers, particularly when asked (I've experienced direct and indirect answers to prayers thousands of times), but evil does exist in the world and humans dictate their own outcomes to a large degree by their choices. This explains why bad things can happen to good people, and vice-versa.
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If fortune ever smiles on me to the extent that someone feels the need to shove a TV camera in my face, I'm going to thank Satan...just to cheese off the people who would get their panties in a bunch.
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This might be a dead forum, but it's something I have been thinking about lately. My wife and I are Mormon and we give 10% each month to the church. We aren't in debt, but there is something very humbling about having your second biggest bill being tithing. It is difficult, I'm not going to lie. There are a ton of reasons why I still do it, but everyone has pretty much mentioned them already. Just wanted to explain a little bit about how money works in the LDS church. I have enjoyed learning about some other religions in this forum, so I thought I would share a bit about mine to see if someone else finds it interesting.
There are two main ways to give money in the church: tithing and offerings. Tithing goes towards day to day costs like lighting, building construction, and other physical needs of the church. The local clergy is not paid, but the full time clergy (known as general authorities) do get a living stipend because they no longer work once they become general authorities. The church also employs a lot of people, IT guys, travel arrangers, writers, etc. The offerings can be given whenever and are used for helping local folks who need food, clothing, rent, etc. It is also used for giving foreign aid (food, blankets, medicine, wheel chairs, things like that.) The first Sunday of each month the members are asked to abstain from food for two meals and then give the money they would have spent on those meals as a "fast offering."
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Thank God I'm atheist.
Amen to that.
I don't get atheists, so I'm hoping for a little help here. I am agnostic. My view is that the universe is so incredibly vast, and my pea sized brain so incredibly small and unable to comprehend such vastness, that there is simply no categorical way I can reasonably say there is no such thing as "God" (or any other higher power(s) ).
How can an atheist, who often draws so heavily on science and reason, claim there is no God with such an incredibly limited amount of data and mental horsepower to reach that conclusion with? I prefer the notion that some questions have no answers over the notion that one can peer into a dark room and declare it empty because there is no light.
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Thank God I'm atheist.
Amen to that.
I don't get atheists, so I'm hoping for a little help here. I am agnostic. My view is that the universe is so incredibly vast, and my pea sized brain so incredibly small and unable to comprehend such vastness, that there is simply no categorical way I can reasonably say there is no such thing as "God" (or any other higher power(s) ).
How can an atheist, who often draws so heavily on science and reason, claim there is no God with such an incredibly limited amount of data and mental horsepower to reach that conclusion with? I prefer the notion that some questions have no answers over the notion that one can peer into a dark room and declare it empty because there is no light.
You are confusing a gnostic atheist with an agnostic atheist - a common misunderstanding. (Gnosticism and atheism are two different scales, although common usage doesn't reflect that) Here's a good link with the break down:
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/Atheist-vs-Agnostic-Difference.htm
Basically, 99% of atheists are actually agnostic atheists - they don't believe in any gods, not that they believe there are no gods. Very crucial distinction.
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As other people have mentioned on here, tithing is a way to help fund your church's works of charity. The Christian religion, in particular, has an emphasis on helping the poor and needy and churches organize the giving and make sure that the money (and material donations) get to the people in the community who need it. When I was growing up poor, my family depended heavily on help from our church and now that I am much more financially comfortable I return that help monetarily and through drives for food, clothing, and other essentials for other people.
I can't think of any legitimate church that would have a problem with someone in poverty not tithing, but it would be frowned on if someone who was wealthy refused to help those who need it.
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This might be a dead forum, but it's something I have been thinking about lately. My wife and I are Mormon and we give 10% each month to the church. We aren't in debt, but there is something very humbling about having your second biggest bill being tithing. It is difficult, I'm not going to lie. There are a ton of reasons why I still do it, but everyone has pretty much mentioned them already. Just wanted to explain a little bit about how money works in the LDS church. I have enjoyed learning about some other religions in this forum, so I thought I would share a bit about mine to see if someone else finds it interesting.
There are two main ways to give money in the church: tithing and offerings. Tithing goes towards day to day costs like lighting, building construction, and other physical needs of the church. The local clergy is not paid, but the full time clergy (known as general authorities) do get a living stipend because they no longer work once they become general authorities. The church also employs a lot of people, IT guys, travel arrangers, writers, etc. The offerings can be given whenever and are used for helping local folks who need food, clothing, rent, etc. It is also used for giving foreign aid (food, blankets, medicine, wheel chairs, things like that.) The first Sunday of each month the members are asked to abstain from food for two meals and then give the money they would have spent on those meals as a "fast offering."
I spent a lot of time with the local Mormons in Richmond when I was a teenager, my best friend at the time was Mormon and we played a lot of basketball. Just great folks, and though I could never accept the enormous leap of faith required to accept their doctrine, I've always admired both the family-oriented social structure and just how blasted decent Mormons are. My old buddy is a fundamentally much better person than I will ever be. On the flip side, I found out after the fact he lost his home to foreclosure so I have to wonder about all those countless thousands he donated to his faith when he probably should have struck a better balance regarding his own financial security. In another twenty years he will likely be retired with hardly anything to his name I'll wager.
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How can an atheist, who often draws so heavily on science and reason, claim there is no God with such an incredibly limited amount of data and mental horsepower to reach that conclusion with?
Perhaps, as one of the atheists who actually believes there is no God (rather than simply not believing that there is a God), I can explain. Of course there are many kinds of atheists - e.g. some of them even think trying to convert others to atheism isn't a total waste of time, for some reason - so this isn't how all atheists thing. I only intend to make the case that a reasonable person can believe that, not that every reasonable person ought to. Also because "God exists"/"God doesn't exist" arguments are fruitless and boring.
Firstly, science is a non-monotonic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-monotonic_logic#Abductive_reasoning) process which accepts theories because they currently appear to be good explanations of reality. There is certainly no requirement that scientific knowledge is 100% certain; otherwise theories wouldn't be changed over time, and they are, that's a defining feature of science.
It's not quite true that you can't "prove" God doesn't exist using science; this depends on how the hypothesis is formulated. It used to be that actual people (e.g. the Pharoah of Egypt) were believed to be God; that was fairly easy to demolish scientifically. Over time, believers have slowly theologised God away from the material and towards the metaphysical, being careful to make fewer and fewer physical claims about God as they became easier to falsify. Theologians have gotten pretty good at doing that by now, and modern definitions of God (e.g. the blind watchmaker) are so careful to avoid falsifiability that they don't even claim God's existence or actions have any observable effects in the real world. (At least, believers are that careful when debating atheists; the same people often go back to church and talk about how prayer can heal the sick.)
But if God really has no observable effects in the real world, then "God doesn't exist" is a very good explanation of reality, so hopefully this explains why scientifically-minded people might accept that hypothesis. (It's exactly as good an explanation of reality as "God exists but has no observable effects in the real world", in fact, so you can see why I think it's pointless arguing about it.)
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Just a little adding to those who mentioned the eternal aspect of religion, being that this life is but a spec in the grand scheme of things, and the eternal salvation of the soul that comes through obedience to the commandments. Also important are the blessings like is found in Malaci 3:8-11
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
(Malachi 3:8-11)KJV
To be fair though, many religions teach to avoid debt.
(I'm religious, pay tithing, but we have no debt)