Author Topic: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?  (Read 31767 times)

Daleth

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2014, 08:35:50 AM »
I don't quite know why Im responding, because it's not helpful necessarily:)  But I'll throw my hat into the ring and say, I'm totally against tithing, and religion in general.  But even if you remove those two titles I think giving money to others when you don't have you own financial house in order is ridiculous bordering on maniacally illogical, and ineffective to the end goal of helping others.  Although I'm all for helping with time and effort during this period...but of course that doesn't line the pockets of the charities and churches in question.

I agree. I'm not an atheist or agnostic--I'm pretty active with a spiritual circle and have been for well over a decade--but I guess the difference is that I don't happen to view God or Spirit or whatever you want to call it as a realtor selling me a spot in Heaven for the low low price of just 10% of whatever I have.

golfer44

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2014, 09:04:01 AM »
Also not religious, but practically speaking I understand the average church's need for tithes.  You can't maintain a building and feed the people who work in it on nothing.  If the church you attend provides value to your life and supports a community of people you want to be around, giving something is reasonable and decent.

But still....  if you have an extreme debt problem, it also seems reasonable that you would adjust your donation appropriately.

Good post, this about sums it up.

stripey

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2014, 09:37:10 AM »
Great question!  I go to a verrryyy small church (like 25 adults per Sunday?) and our pastor does a lot of ministry/counseling in the church and around the community.  The reason I tithe to the Church first is because they facilitate a lot of my spiritual growth and I want to support that so it can continue and be done for others as well.  This is how I have always viewed tithing to a Church versus a charity.  However, most Churches that I have attended have a lot of charity type outreaches like food pantries and things like that.

I'm in a similar situation. My church doesn't have a building- it hires out venues (different venues, in fact) for a morning and evening service. For a small to medium sized church this can be very effificent use of financial resources. It has a very high proportion of students (due to locality) and does a lot of practical help with them. It also has higher than anticipated proportion of people with erm... 'life issues' such as serious mental health issues. I would consider this the sign of a healthy church! The couple of people that are employed by the church do a lot of counselling, and it directly benefits people in the community (including non church members). I see the work done by our church as valuable. Many members of our church are not financially well off (e.g. students) and it is not expected they will tithe regularly, or at >10%.

I tithe partly because I should help financially support the church worker's (modest) wages, because I think there is a scriptural basis (as discussed above). BUT I think the most important reason for me to regularly tithe is to cultivate the attitude that 'the money doesn't control me, and I will gladly give it away'.

Also, additionally I donate to several (secular) charities. One of the reasons for chasing financial independence is I don't want anything preventing generosity.

Fireman

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2014, 10:22:36 AM »
The flip side of the argument, why do bad things happen to good people, that's a tougher nut to crack. You often see a baseball player point at the sky when he hits a home run, conversely you never see him point down when he whiffs with the bases loaded.     

The faithful will tell you that it's because they did not pray enough, hard enough, about the right thing, or at the right time.  These folks always thank a deity when good happens but blame themselves when it doesn't...I guess that's just part of being faithful. 

Also not religious, but practically speaking I understand the average church's need for tithes.  You can't maintain a building and feed the people who work in it on nothing.  If the church you attend provides value to your life and supports a community of people you want to be around, giving something is reasonable and decent.

To a point, yes.  However, I would argue that a church doesn't need to be a multi million dollar building to provide a place for worship.  In fact, if churches spent less money on the building, and more on helping people, then I could get behind the idea a little more. 

I'll close with this:  i'm by no means trying to bash anyone's viewpoint.  I'm not religious myself and, to be honest, I grew up going to church but always wondered what the point of it all was.  If religion and faith are a positive aspect of your life then, by all means, let it eat :)

okonumiyaki

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2014, 02:28:49 AM »
I'm a non-practising Muslim, so interesting to compare with the Islamic equivalent - zakat

Zakat is on financial assets, not income.  You are meant to give 1/40th (2.5%) of your wealth to following categories:

Those living in absolute poverty
Those restrained because they cannot meet their basic needs
Non-Muslims who are sympathetic to Islam or wish to convert to Islam (so supporting missionary work)
People whom one is attempting to free from slavery or bondage. Also includes paying ransom
Those who have incurred overwhelming debts while attempting to satisfy their basic needs
Those working in God's way (so helping pay for local masjid & preacher, schools etc)
Children of the street / Travellers

Money is meant to be given directly, not via mosque/ intermediate charity.

The calculation for wealth is complex...  You only have to pay zakat on the amount you have over what liquid savings you need for yourself. (defined in terms of gold/ silver, but a few hundred USD) Your house/ furniture/ clothing is exempt.  Certain, productive assets are exempt - i.e. you wouldn't pay it on the value of a factory, but on the savings that that factory has allowed you to accumulate.

Zakat, plus tough usury laws, have been effective in stopping capital accumulation in islam - seen as one of the reasons why capitalism/ industrial revolution took place in Europe, rather than the more technically advanced (at the time) Middle East.

Obviously, if one is in overall debt (negative net worth), then zakat no longer applies
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 02:32:05 AM by okonumiyaki »

Mlkmn

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2014, 06:05:42 AM »
My wife and I are Christians. We do not tithe. The tithe was a tax on the Israelites. I am also a strong believer that most church buildings are a waste of money. People would be better off meeting in houses, barns, strip malls, warehouses, etc, for corporate worship IMO. That money could be used for doing good rather than making sure I don't have to wear a jacket while I worship God. I would rather wear the jacket and be singing in the cold if we couldn't all fit into space that is already paid for.

So we give our time, skills, and effort. Because we played with fire and took on a bunch of student loans, we have to work tirelessly to pay them back. We strongly believe that debt is holding us back from serving the Lord, because we have to pay a certain amount each month to a bunch of banks. How do I answer God's call to go serve somewhere full time when I have a bunch of chains wrapped around me all the time? Why would he call me when I can't even devote 100% to him with this stupid debt?

We choose to volunteer instead of giving money. When we have our debts paid we will give financially. We will also invest it into our own mission we are going to start. I am excited for next year.

MissStache

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2014, 08:09:49 AM »
Thank you everyone, for all of your thoughtful responses.  I especially appreciate the Jewish and Muslim insights since I know so little about the practical aspects of those religions.

What an interesting and diverse community we have here in this little forum!

enigmaT120

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2014, 01:44:37 PM »
Personally I treat all retirement accounts (both 401k and Roth) as deferred income, and don't tithe on it now. I also don't tithe on unrealized capital gains in taxable accounts with the same reasoning. I haven't discussed those particular issues with anyone else, though, so I don't know if that's a common approach.

That's how I do it, too.  But it's probably just the two of us.  I bet you don't deduct your commuting expenses though! 

I like what Bono said "The God I worship isn't short of cash, mister!"  He's just left a large chunk of it in my custody.


Fireman

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2014, 08:29:59 PM »
The faithful will tell you that it's because they did not pray enough, hard enough, about the right thing, or at the right time.  These folks always thank a deity when good happens but blame themselves when it doesn't...I guess that's just part of being faithful. 

To a point, yes.  However, I would argue that a church doesn't need to be a multi million dollar building to provide a place for worship.  In fact, if churches spent less money on the building, and more on helping people, then I could get behind the idea a little more. 

Your first point is incredibly untrue of my faith (Christianity). Ann Voskamp (who wrote One Thousand Gifts) has a blog with a huge following that addresses that very issue-praising God at all times. I have never heard any Christian leader (pastor, book author, etc) imply what you are claiming.

Most churches I have been around have been simple structures with little $ spent on decor. The one I am most familiar with has fundraisers for that purpose, and the money doesn't come from tithe. I know that in centuries of old the church spent a lot on beautiful buildings, but I don't see that being the case now.

In reference to your first point:  I heard those phrases plenty in my youth.  While i'm sure you had a different upbringing and have different beliefs, I disagree that either one of us can blanket all of Christianity with one viewpoint.  I retract the concreteness of my original point and suggest that some believe those principles.

Pat Robertson: Tornadoes Could Have Been Stopped If People Had Prayed

Yes, I cherry picked this article but it illustrates the point that each religious 'leader' interprets their deity differently.

In reference to your second point:  i'll agree that there are congregations that worship in simple or borrowed buildings.  However, there is a growing trend to build new and very large structures for hosting worship services.  These structures are expensive to build and maintain and, while the construction costs may have come from fundraisers and donations, I would think the maintenance and operating costs are covered by the monies received through tithe.  A smaller, less ornate building would have lower costs.

I'll also agree that churches can be magnificent structures with great appeal to many.  They are, as serpentstooth explained, designed to stand apart.  But where is the line between a grandiose building and support for the parishioners and community?

Another cherry picked example:  Architecture review: First Baptist of Dallas builds a $130 million corporate behemoth

aew85

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2014, 08:32:09 PM »
Never grew up religious but do see the good that comes from contributing to charity.  That said, I tend to take the delayed gratification view when it comes to charity giving.  Instead of donating from each paycheck, slowly invest that money and build your own personal charity stach of sorts.  In 15 years the charity stach can provide that monthly amount on it's own for the rest of your life and several more lifetimes if it's managed properly. 

greaper007

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2014, 11:37:34 PM »
I grew up in a rural (read: homogeneous conservative christian) area in a pretty serious Christian family (although I do not consider myself Christian at all, 0%). But if you're asking about the the emotional rational regarding tithing (even if you are in debt) I always heard it explained like this: "If you give what you have to God, God will give back to you even more. So even if you feel like you have very little money, if you just tithe, suddenly you'll see that God has given you even more- and you'll always have enough." I remember people saying this also like, "You'll never understand how it happens, but when you give more and more, God ends up making it up for you, and taking care of you."

Ahh, the powers of ascribing rational events to supernatural forces.   All those starving people in Africa must have been very naughty in a previous lifetime.

I prefer to  look at it this way. Say you have two individuals, one who is generous to a fault and one who is a scrooge. Who does the community look more fondly on? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the generous person gets tangible benefits down the road from being someone the community admires, perhaps that person gets a job based in part on the employer knowing what a great guy he is.

One could then interpret at that is God taking care of those that took care of God' house, another would say it was nothing more than "creating your own good luck" by being such a decent person in the first place.

This is how I believe Divinity is often credited for someone else's good fortunes. The flip side of the argument, why do bad things happen to good people, that's a tougher nut to crack. You often see a baseball player point at the sky when he hits a home run, conversely you never see him point down when he whiffs with the bases loaded.     

Yes, but the person that has good things happen to them because they're nice to people isn't having that happen because of god, it's happening because they followed a logical series of events.   If I'm nice to people and network and I get a job, that's not because god smiled more on me than some other poor sap.   That's because I followed a logical series of steps.   I find it bizarre when people thank god for things that happen in their lives where it would seem god has no place.   A great example is the inevitable athlete who after winning a major championship, mumbles a monosyllabic thank you to god for his team's championship.    Does that mean that god likes say...Seattle more than Denver?   Does god really care about professional sporting events when there are children dying in Syria?

Without getting into an analysis of religion, it would appear that god takes a fairly hands off approach to human affairs.

Otherwise, I don't understand why a church needs 10% of your money.   From my experience, a lot of this money goes to proselytization efforts at home and abroad, needlessly large buildings, and political legislation (see the Mormon Church and prop 8).   I applaud the money that goes to the poor but I've personally seen too many abuses over the years.   I also don't like how many churches attempt to increase their membership in a sort of Amway like pyramid scheme.

Khan

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2014, 04:01:54 AM »
Thank you for that informative post. Also, okonomiyaki is delicious. I had the fortune of having it twice while I was in Japan.

Vjklander

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2014, 10:51:52 PM »
Thank God I'm atheist.

PintSizedMustachian

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2014, 11:15:40 PM »
Now, many modern Christians regard their church as their support group. They even have a catch-phrase: They're "Doing life" with such-and-such church. Many pay tithes as a sort of membership due. For free counseling, free babysitting, free events, lots of free entertainment, insurance for life's downturns via a food and clothing pantry/meals on wheels, sick visits, plus a network for advice/borrowing/help and more, it's not necessarily a bad deal.

OT, but I've often felt that in terms of sheer bang-for-buck, Mormons get a LOT for their tithes. The church runs its own internal welfare system, you get heavily reduced tuition to a very good university, a very supportive community, and a wealth of networking/social opportunities.

Yeah, but members give as much as they get because the church is 99% run on volunteering. Local clergy, bookkeepers, Sunday school teachers, etc. are all laymen who are called to these positions. The churches are even cleaned by members on a rotating schedule. If you need food from the Bishop's Storehouse, you can it yourself or rely on the volunteer work of others who can the stuff. That was one thing I really enjoyed about being raised Mormon: we volunteered A LOT. Not that non-Mormons don't volunteer, but there's a huge emphasis on service in that religion.

Fireman

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2014, 03:39:36 AM »
Thank God I'm atheist.

Ohhh, I see what you did there!

NinetyFour

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2014, 07:15:51 AM »
Thank God I'm atheist.

Amen to that.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2014, 07:51:51 AM »
Thank you everyone, for all of your thoughtful responses.  I especially appreciate the Jewish and Muslim insights since I know so little about the practical aspects of those religions.

What an interesting and diverse community we have here in this little forum!

agreed. I am fascinated by religion... briefly considered majoring in theology (and yes I believe in God but I'm not sure how else to categorize my religious beliefs at this time). you guys really have me thinking that after my student loans are dead (less than a year!!!) I should set up some kind of tithing-like system for regular charitable donations, instead of just arbitrarily donating to things when they tug at my heartstrings.

DoubleDown

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2014, 11:30:42 AM »
I find it bizarre when people thank god for things that happen in their lives where it would seem god has no place.   A great example is the inevitable athlete who after winning a major championship, mumbles a monosyllabic thank you to god for his team's championship.    Does that mean that god likes say...Seattle more than Denver?   Does god really care about professional sporting events when there are children dying in Syria?

Without getting into an analysis of religion, it would appear that god takes a fairly hands off approach to human affairs.

Definitely one of the mysteries of God open to debate -- just how much is He in control of human affairs, if at all? For those that believe in God, some believe every little thing can be attributed to His overall "plan", while others think it's a completely hands-off affair.

I don't personally subscribe to the belief that God controls every miniscule event, but playing devil's advocate, someone could argue that God does indeed prefer Seattle winning over Denver, and that it fits into a larger overall plan somehow. We might never understand that plan, or it may take years to see how the sequence of events unfolded for some greater good. So, it's not a question of God caring about football over kids dying in Syria -- it's all part of a gigantic, cosmic plan that we can't fathom, and which will unfold in His time, not ours. Seattle winning has an impact on millions of downstream events that are all part of His plan. Even trivial events have impacts down the line (like spilling your coffee and catching the next flight, thereby missing the plane crash), let alone Super Bowl victories.

Again, I don't subscribe to this idea above, but I'd say we can't dismiss it as being silly. Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle: God intervenes in the lives of believers, particularly when asked (I've experienced direct and indirect answers to prayers thousands of times), but evil does exist in the world and humans dictate their own outcomes to a large degree by their choices. This explains why bad things can happen to good people, and vice-versa.

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2014, 01:06:16 PM »
If fortune ever smiles on me to the extent that someone feels the need to shove a TV camera in my face, I'm going to thank Satan...just to cheese off the people who would get their panties in a bunch.

Jordan

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2014, 10:49:06 AM »
This might be a dead forum, but it's something I have been thinking about lately. My wife and I are Mormon and we give 10% each month to the church.  We aren't in debt, but there is something very humbling about having your second biggest bill being tithing. It is difficult, I'm not going to lie. There are a ton of reasons why I still do it, but everyone has pretty much mentioned them already. Just wanted to explain a little bit about how money works in the LDS church. I have enjoyed learning about some other religions in this forum, so I thought I would share a bit about mine to see if someone else finds it interesting.

There are two main ways to give money in the church: tithing and offerings. Tithing goes towards day to day costs like lighting, building construction, and other physical needs of the church. The local clergy is not paid, but the full time clergy (known as general authorities) do get a living stipend because they no longer work once they become general authorities. The church also employs a lot of people, IT guys, travel arrangers, writers, etc. The offerings can be given whenever and are used for helping local folks who need food, clothing, rent, etc. It is also used for giving foreign aid (food, blankets, medicine, wheel chairs, things like that.) The first Sunday of each month the members are asked to abstain from food for two meals and then give the money they would have spent on those meals as a "fast offering."

hybrid

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2014, 11:41:12 AM »
Thank God I'm atheist.

Amen to that.

I don't get atheists, so I'm hoping for a little help here. I am agnostic. My view is that the universe is so incredibly vast, and my pea sized brain so incredibly small and unable to comprehend such vastness, that there is simply no categorical way I can reasonably say there is no such thing as "God" (or any other higher power(s) ).

How can an atheist, who often draws so heavily on science and reason, claim there is no God with such an incredibly limited amount of data and mental horsepower to reach that conclusion with? I prefer the notion that some questions have no answers over the notion that one can peer into a dark room and declare it empty because there is no light.

smalllife

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2014, 12:07:06 PM »
Thank God I'm atheist.

Amen to that.

I don't get atheists, so I'm hoping for a little help here. I am agnostic. My view is that the universe is so incredibly vast, and my pea sized brain so incredibly small and unable to comprehend such vastness, that there is simply no categorical way I can reasonably say there is no such thing as "God" (or any other higher power(s) ).

How can an atheist, who often draws so heavily on science and reason, claim there is no God with such an incredibly limited amount of data and mental horsepower to reach that conclusion with? I prefer the notion that some questions have no answers over the notion that one can peer into a dark room and declare it empty because there is no light.

You are confusing a gnostic atheist with an agnostic atheist - a common misunderstanding.  (Gnosticism and atheism are two different scales, although common usage doesn't reflect that) Here's a good link with the break down:

http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/Atheist-vs-Agnostic-Difference.htm

Basically, 99% of atheists are actually agnostic atheists - they don't believe in any gods, not that they believe there are no gods.  Very crucial distinction.

MoneyCat

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2014, 12:18:05 PM »
As other people have mentioned on here, tithing is a way to help fund your church's works of charity.  The Christian religion, in particular, has an emphasis on helping the poor and needy and churches organize the giving and make sure that the money (and material donations) get to the people in the community who need it.  When I was growing up poor, my family depended heavily on help from our church and now that I am much more financially comfortable I return that help monetarily and through drives for food, clothing, and other essentials for other people.

I can't think of any legitimate church that would have a problem with someone in poverty not tithing, but it would be frowned on if someone who was wealthy refused to help those who need it.

hybrid

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2014, 12:29:05 PM »
This might be a dead forum, but it's something I have been thinking about lately. My wife and I are Mormon and we give 10% each month to the church.  We aren't in debt, but there is something very humbling about having your second biggest bill being tithing. It is difficult, I'm not going to lie. There are a ton of reasons why I still do it, but everyone has pretty much mentioned them already. Just wanted to explain a little bit about how money works in the LDS church. I have enjoyed learning about some other religions in this forum, so I thought I would share a bit about mine to see if someone else finds it interesting.

There are two main ways to give money in the church: tithing and offerings. Tithing goes towards day to day costs like lighting, building construction, and other physical needs of the church. The local clergy is not paid, but the full time clergy (known as general authorities) do get a living stipend because they no longer work once they become general authorities. The church also employs a lot of people, IT guys, travel arrangers, writers, etc. The offerings can be given whenever and are used for helping local folks who need food, clothing, rent, etc. It is also used for giving foreign aid (food, blankets, medicine, wheel chairs, things like that.) The first Sunday of each month the members are asked to abstain from food for two meals and then give the money they would have spent on those meals as a "fast offering."

I spent a lot of time with the local Mormons in Richmond when I was a teenager, my best friend at the time was Mormon and we played a lot of basketball. Just great folks, and though I could never accept the enormous leap of faith required to accept their doctrine, I've always admired both the family-oriented social structure and just how blasted decent Mormons are. My old buddy is a fundamentally much better person than I will ever be. On the flip side, I found out after the fact he lost his home to foreclosure so I have to wonder about all those countless thousands he donated to his faith when he probably should have struck a better balance regarding his own financial security. In another twenty years he will likely be retired with hardly anything to his name I'll wager.

warfreak2

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2014, 01:26:29 PM »
How can an atheist, who often draws so heavily on science and reason, claim there is no God with such an incredibly limited amount of data and mental horsepower to reach that conclusion with?
Perhaps, as one of the atheists who actually believes there is no God (rather than simply not believing that there is a God), I can explain. Of course there are many kinds of atheists - e.g. some of them even think trying to convert others to atheism isn't a total waste of time, for some reason - so this isn't how all atheists thing. I only intend to make the case that a reasonable person can believe that, not that every reasonable person ought to. Also because "God exists"/"God doesn't exist" arguments are fruitless and boring.

Firstly, science is a non-monotonic process which accepts theories because they currently appear to be good explanations of reality. There is certainly no requirement that scientific knowledge is 100% certain; otherwise theories wouldn't be changed over time, and they are, that's a defining feature of science.

It's not quite true that you can't "prove" God doesn't exist using science; this depends on how the hypothesis is formulated. It used to be that actual people (e.g. the Pharoah of Egypt) were believed to be God; that was fairly easy to demolish scientifically. Over time, believers have slowly theologised God away from the material and towards the metaphysical, being careful to make fewer and fewer physical claims about God as they became easier to falsify. Theologians have gotten pretty good at doing that by now, and modern definitions of God (e.g. the blind watchmaker) are so careful to avoid falsifiability that they don't even claim God's existence or actions have any observable effects in the real world. (At least, believers are that careful when debating atheists; the same people often go back to church and talk about how prayer can heal the sick.)

But if God really has no observable effects in the real world, then "God doesn't exist" is a very good explanation of reality, so hopefully this explains why scientifically-minded people might accept that hypothesis. (It's exactly as good an explanation of reality as "God exists but has no observable effects in the real world", in fact, so you can see why I think it's pointless arguing about it.)

87tweetybirds

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Re: Why do you tithe when you're in debt?
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2014, 03:35:26 AM »
Just a little adding to those who mentioned the eternal aspect of religion, being that this life is but a spec in the grand scheme of things, and the eternal salvation of the soul that comes through obedience to the commandments. Also important are the blessings like is found in Malaci 3:8-11

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.

 (Malachi 3:8-11)KJV

To be fair though, many religions teach to avoid debt.

(I'm religious, pay tithing, but we have no debt)