Why Do You Guys Decide To Reach FIRE So Early?

[LadyFI]

What I really want to do is to travel. Not your typical 2 weeks type traveling, but I want to go to a place and live there for a month..really soak up in the culture and experience their lives. This of course takes a lot of cash and time. At our age, we can't just ditch our kids and go on a 6 months vacation. So I ask you guys out there..what is there to do when you retire under 40 and you have kids?

We plan to travel.

Our daughter will be a preschool drop out next spring when we celebrate DH's RE with some much-awaited extended travel. (We are FI, but DH is waiting a few more months for various reasons).

Going forward, we plan to mix years of regular school (while traveling in the summers) with years where we homeschool for a semester while traveling.

We won't be taking off for 6 months every year but we plan to take 2-4 months every 4 years or so. And then lots of shorter travel or even 1-2 month trips in the summers in years we aren't doing a huge trip. DH & I love travel and look forward to returning to favorite places and exploring new ones with our kid. We've budgeted a lot of money for future travel, but probably far less than you'd think, given our plans. It's possible to travel very, very well on a relatively modest budget if you have the time to plan and flexibility in your schedule. Which you will, because you're retired.

As for what we plan to do with all of the time after retiring if we aren't traveling....I'm not sure where to start. Ski as much as possible in the winter. Read all of the books. Get fluent in French again. Hiking on random Tuesdays. Learn how to cook new ethnic foods. Volunteer at my kid's school. Stay fit. Garden. Kayak. Learn to play guitar. Plus tons of stuff I haven't even thought of yet.

[frugalmaybe]

the original poster seems to be implying what brings a person happiness is objective and not subjective. i don't live a fire lifestyle and i do spend a lot of money on certain things, but i personally am not at all interested in fancy cars or fancy restaurants. my biggest extracurricular expense is on my own personal passion (or one of them), travel. but most of my other passions cost essentially nothing.

[englyn]

Actually, sounds to me like you are motivated by fear of the unknown - fear that the 'level 4 luxury' that you'd be able to afford wouldn't be satisfying to you and you'd want more. You don't know whether this is true, because you've been delaying interesting experiences to save and work, so you aren't sure what you like/want.

There's an excellent solution to this. Work until you have enough for your basic level / 'level 4 luxury' FI / current comfortable spending rate. Then take a year sabbatical and do some of that stuff you dream of. Do some adventure travel, spend a few nights in a really fancy hotel, hire the lamborghini or the yacht, airbnb in a really fancy house for a few weeks, do some travelling on a 'level 4 luxury' budget for comparison. Sure, you'll spend more than your 4%, but who cares, you can afford it and you're planning to go back to work.

Now you know what you like. Maybe that hotel was awesome and so was the lamborghini, and you're really glad you had the experience, but actually next time you go to Italy you'd rather stay in a relaxed airbnb apartment and rent a Fiat and just enjoy the location. In which case maybe you only need to work for another couple of years to save up for 'level 5 luxury' instead of another 15 years lost to working.

Or maybe you missed the feeling of accomplishment from working and now you really have an appetite for that lambo. In which case, yanno, you're still technically FI, you're just working because you enjoy it and want a cool toy. But you don't have to.

The point of MMM is: you have options. You don't have to work another 10 years just because you don't yet know what you want.

[Jaguar Paw]

I made it through about 7 replies... This original post is a joke, right? Is Ashton kutcher about to jump out to tell me I'm punk'd? Well played

[frugalmaybe]

ok i've read through the whole thread and singuy just doesn't understand the concept of subjectivity. that not everyone has the same interests or desires. he also doesn't seem to be interested in anyone's answer to his original question, since a lot of people have given sincere responses and he simply refuses to accept them.

i think everyone in this thread has made an honest attempt to give a helpful reply.

[Gondolin]

ok i've read through the whole thread and singuy just doesn't understand the concept of subjectivity. that not everyone has the same interests or desires. he also doesn't seem to be interested in anyone's answer to his original question, since a lot of people have given sincere responses and he simply refuses to accept them.

i think everyone in this thread has made an honest attempt to give a helpful reply.

Frugalmaybe - You're completely correct. If you hang around these forums for awhile you'll see that a poster like this comes along every month or so. They start a new thread to argue "I just started reading the blog and I think I value my time like X. Why don't you guys all value your time like X?". Then the forum oldtimers (arebelspy, sol, guitarstv, spartana, Spork, Cassie, etc. etc.) come out and say, "Ah, grasshopper, it is because we value our time like Y or W or Z. We set a goal and then seek to achieve it. Nothing else matters."

At which point the OP says, "BUT WHY DON'T YOU VALUE YOUR TIME LIKE X!!!! X IS CORRECT BECAUSE IT'S MINE!!!!".

Then, OP either reads further on the blog/forums, "gets it" and joins the community or they disappear.

[Singuy]

ok i've read through the whole thread and singuy just doesn't understand the concept of subjectivity. that not everyone has the same interests or desires. he also doesn't seem to be interested in anyone's answer to his original question, since a lot of people have given sincere responses and he simply refuses to accept them.

i think everyone in this thread has made an honest attempt to give a helpful reply.

That's because all you guys are so focused on making an intervention.

I have a few answers but no one really addresses the question I was asking.

How did you ultra early retirees decided that you want to retire super young(as in under 40) like MMM.  Everyone here focuses how time is valuable and precious, how you don't want to waste it working for the cooperate world and etc...I get that..it makes sense. No one wants to give their entire live dedicated to something that's not enjoyable. So if you are 47, 51, 54..sure yes..time can be considered as a limited resource. But when you are under 40, time is of abundance. We are talking about a possible 40-50 years of retirement!

I am wondering about those who are in their early, mid or late 30s with children. What made you decide to FIRE so early?  How do you cope with ALL the extra free time when your kids are at school? Do you no longer have the desire to accumulate more wealth for perhaps leaving your children a legacy..building yourself one, or wanting a different kind of retirement that is less penny pinching? And is your time really well spent at home being tied down by your kid's education and needs vs putting up with hours at the office?

[Singuy]

Okay how about this.

Currently my NW is 1.2 million with house
We make 280k/year after taxes
My wife's business can give us a passive income of about 80k post tax/year
We have 0 debt and no mortgage
Our current mandatory expenditure/year is 25k(property tax, electric bills, food, gas). Add 10k for our current lifestyle
We are currently 33 with 1 child who is 8 months old.

If we both quit our jobs tomorrow. I'll have to pay for obamacare for all of us, so another 10k added on top. Then I'll have to fund my retirement account for tax efficiency so that's another 18k gone. If we don't save additional money from the 80k, we'll end up losing to inflation eventually. So it's looking like we'll have an extra 15k/year to do things beyond our current lifestyle.

MMM would FIRE as of yesterday. But I'm not so sure I understand why because

1. What are we going to do for 50 years worth of retirement?..that is a long ass time! Also I feel like we are penny pinching even with such passive income.
2. What if something happens..like business dies...or my child has some sort of disability?
3. There are just so many what ifs for 50 long years!
4. If we save and work till 45, that's still early enough for us PLUS we leave a legacy for generations to come with 5mil+...plus my kid will STILL not be in college...so probably have to wait another 3 before we can actually go out and do stuff. Now with a passive of income of 400-600k/year..we can do whatever we want with little compromises vs our current 80k/year passive income).

[tonysemail]

you seem to be at a crossroads.
You've reached FI without a plan... and now what??
the thing is, many would say there's no WRONG choice in your situation.
the problem you face is a plethora of GOOD choices.

If you really want to build a legacy, then by all means, keep working for another 18 years.
If you really want to travel, then start now, before your kid is in Kindergarten.
You'll have a good 5 years to sow your oats, before the school calendar starts to limit your plans.
You can return to a normal career after your kid is in school.

It's a very personal choice, so you're the only one who can answer what makes most sense to you.
FWIW I have seen two people my age fail at early retirement.
Sometimes the grass is just greener and you won't know the right choice unless you try it out.
Why not take a long sabbatical and figure it out?

p.s. you should travel hack (if you aren't already).

[Villanelle]

Well we spend more than $20k and certainly are moderate by mustachian standards, and while I left the work for  for what I thought was a temporary thing in my mid-30s, but looks like it will be mostly permanent, DH will likely not retire until his late 40s, at the earliest.  (More because he loves his work than for financial reasons.)  So I'm not the hard-core mustachian, but here are my thoughts.

I've driven cars nicer than my 2000 Toyota Echo. They did nothing for me.  (In truth, I did enjoy the electric windows as compared to the Echo's manual, and my new-to-me car that I had to buy when we moved to Japan, a 2007 March, does have those, and it is a bit quieter which I like.  It cost me $2000.)  It would be a 0% lifestyle improvement for me if someone swapped my car for a Lambo, unless I was allowed to sell it.  Actually, it would be a lifestyle hit for me, because I'd pay more for insurance and I'd worry about the car.  The the Echo or the March get a for ding in a parking lot, I don't care.  So a fancier car would not make my life better in even a tiny way. 

I've had amazing meals.  They were amazing in part because they were a rare treat.  If I ate like that weekly or even monthly, I would cease to notice some of the awesomeness, so I don't want to adapt to that level of luxury.

If you feel differently, as long as you are self-supporting, cool.  But it's weird to me that you can't understand other mindsets, too.


I have had

[deborah]

Let's look at your assumptions.

According to the SS website you can expect to live for another 48 years and your wife for another 52. However, that hides a lot of variability. I was nearly killed by a bus when I was 42. My best friend died of cancer the day she turned 60. Life doesn't necessarily give us the longevity we expect (both of us have had plenty of people in our families who reached very old age). A lot of people start to die after they reach within 8 years of their longevity number, but there are a lot more who die many years early than people who die many years late.

I also have several friends who have been confined to wheelchairs - two with accidents while out riding bikes, one with MS, one while hang gliding, one who had someone open a car door when she was walking past, and another who fell over after donating blood. It happens. All of them were in their 40s or younger when this happened. I would rather have the life and the capability to do the things I want to do. People tend to become very frail in their last 8 years, so your 50 years of retirement look more like 40 years that you can do the things you want to do.

When I left work, I had a plan. I was getting internationally recognised for a couple of completely different things I did as hobbies. I wanted to go further. Retiring early could have given me that opportunity.

However, my father started to have cancer, and my parents couldn't cope, so for several years, I traveled 7.5 hours (each way) to visit my parents every two weeks. I am really glad that I had the opportunity to do this - I wouldn't have been able to do it if I had still been working. It is the single most beneficial thing that retirement gave me - the ability to help my parents while this was happening. Yes, it put the things I intended to do on hold (or even stopped them from ever happening), but when you are retired you have the freedom to change your plans to follow your priorities. And I have no regrets.

When I was 30 I made a list of all the things I would like to do with my life. I would need to live three lives to do them all! ER gives people more opportunity to do the lot.

But basically, you are one of life's lucky people. We see a lot of them here. They get a wonderful job which pays an incredible wage, and they don't understand how anyone can leave their jobs, because jobs are pretty nice things. Their jobs give them money for any toys they want. Their jobs provide them with fulfillment in the form of exciting things to do every day, creating something in a team environment that could never be achieved on their own. But there are a lot of people out there with much less fulfilling jobs who cannot wait to never have to go through the door to work again.

I was one of life's lucky people (not quite at the level you are), but I got a narcissistic boss, and a number of things happened in my life, and I found I didn't like work any more. I loved the work itself, but the environment was destroying me. Many others here find out that one day these sorts of things turn their work into something they need to escape. If you don't need to, you don't have to. However, it is always worth having a plan for what you want to do when you pull the plug (or have it pulled on you) so that you always know what your options are.

[undercover]

That's because all you guys are so focused on making an intervention.

I would strongly suggest that it’s you who is so focused on making an intervention.

How did you ultra early retirees decided that you want to retire super young(as in under 40) like MMM.

You’re definitely trolling at this point. It’s been answered like 10 times in 50 different ways. Just stop.

4. If we save and work till 45, that's still early enough for us PLUS we leave a legacy for generations to come with 5mil+...plus my kid will STILL not be in college...so probably have to wait another 3 before we can actually go out and do stuff. Now with a passive of income of 400-600k/year..we can do whatever we want with little compromises vs our current 80k/year passive income).

Great! You’ve figured out what works for you. /thread

[financialfreedomsloth]

I am all for early retirement. My wife and I are aiming for 45 yo. I am just wondering what are the benefits of retiring as early as MMM. My children will be in school in combination of my funds being limited(since I need to make it last 40+ years), I can't see myself doing anything else but to watch a lot of tv at home..not to mention I'll never be able to experience anything beyond level 4 luxury for the rest of my life (this is if I have MMM money and passive income).

I think you should try a few of the ridiculous expensive experiences now. I think you have the feeling you are missing out of live because you did not have those experience. Having one or two will probably get rid of that feeling because I highly doubt you will find them very enjoyable or better than a level 4 experience. Because in all honesty, they are not worth it. Beyond a certain price point stuff gets pricier just to make it more ‘exclusive’ but it has nothing to do with the product or service itself.

Crystal is in no way better than a taittinger millisimé or grand cru of 50 euro but they charge dubbel or triple because of the packaging/brand. It just has an ‘exclusive’ aura but in reality is mass produced just like all the other champagnes. But yeah, the packaging that is going to end up in the trash 5 minutes later is O so nice …

And personally, having a good time with friends. If that is with a decent 10 euro a bottle cava on some cheap plastic garden furniture or a crystal champagne on expensive teak furniture, the most important thing there is the company and the quality conversations I have, not the price of the drinks and the furniture I am sitting on. I will always prefer the cheap environment with good friends than the expensive environment with people I do not know or even like. And in all honesty, people who attach a lot of importance to the brand they are drinking, the clothes they are wearing, the type of car they drive .. usually are not the most interesting kind of people to me … But I am the kind of person that likes to figure out how to make an excellent cup of coffee with a manual grinder, a French press and some excellent coffee beans and am then very happy to calculate my cost per cup is less then 0.5 euro against the sugar crap Starbuck will serve you at 5 euro. I just value the experience of figuring out stuff like that + making it myself (and get to smell the freshly ground beans) a lot more than going to a starbucks.
And I am fine with that, it is who I am.

True story:
I once helped a co-worker I liked move, turns out she and her parents are quit rich. After the move she was driving me back home and we pass a castle (yes a real castle). I ask what it is and she says: old castle, blablabla but now houses a 2 michelin star restaurant and then offers me to treat me to a nice dinner there because of all the help I provided with the move. I refused and counter offered that she would buy me some French fries from my local fries’ shop (costs about 10 euro). She looked at me as if I was crazy but I explained to her that the food there is probably very nice but in order to go eat there I would need to dress up (don’t like doing that), need to eat in a formal setting (I am a slouch and sitting at a table for 2 to three hours would start to feel like torture after about 20 mins) and that actually I really like the fries of my local shop and enjoy talking with her. To me, just hanging out with her at my place and being able to stuff my mouth with good French fries was a much more valuable experience then going to a –very- fancy restaurant. And this was before I discovered money mustache, lol.

[financialfreedomsloth]

You’re definitely trolling at this point. It’s been answered like 10 times in 50 different ways. Just stop.

I think he is afraid.

They have lived on 30k for many years, worked hard and now he has stumbled upon the blog and forum and discovered he can actually retire at the age of 35. And that realization was a shock to him. He is afraid and the posts here are mental road blocks he is constructing for himself. ‘What if I develop a taste for 1k restaurant visits and 50k travels?’, ‘I would like to travel but can not because of kid’, ‘retiring at 45 is still great and then I would have a stash twice as big!!’, ‘filling in all that free time is going to take lots of money, I can not retire now!’

He is afraid, and because we demolish his mental roadblocks he is even starting to lash out a bit because he has not yet accepted the idea he could FIRE. That is all understandable. Give him some time to adjust to the idea. A lot of people here have gone through that.

He should have posted in the post-FIRE threat and asked there how people handled their fear of actually pulling the trigger. Lots of good discussions there. It might be a good idea to move this thread.

I am planning on FIRE when I am 45 -47 (am 42 now and will do it on a lot less money) and what I can say is I am really sorry I did not discover MM sooner. With a bit more dedication and focus I probably could have done it by 40. 35 to 45 are good years to be Fire’d in my opinion: still in good health; enough energy to start/explore new things, children young enough to actually want to spend time with you (thread opener wants to retire when his child is like 14 – 16 years old, because yes, being home with an annoying teenager who wants nothing to do with his parents is so appealing) …

[Victor]

This has to be a troll post, or some spoiled rich kid who never had any kind of hardship hit him.

Want to know why we strive for FI? Its because we despise the concept of our fate and the fate of our family being dependent upon the whims of others. 

[Victor]

We make 280k/year after taxes

That would be it right there.  Go flip burgers for a year and live off that, then you'll understand why FI is a dream for the bulk of us.

[Cranky]

Honestly, if you can't think of some interesting way to spend your day that doesn't involve a $1000 dinner, you should keep going to work.

[jim555]

I retired at 49 only because the numbers did not come together until then.  I would have retired at 33 if I could have.  I guess the OP likes his job.  I hated my job and hated being bossed around by petty tyrants with dumb ideas and personality disorders.  For me it is all about freedom.

[Paul der Krake]

Re: leaving a legacy.

There have been many threads talking about the good you could do with working just One More Year©. I can't find it right now but there was a thread where our philosopher-in-residence and moral compass, sol, listed all the things that he could do to impact lives in third world countries if he just buckled down for a little while longer. For the recipients, it would be live changing stuff. This is what makes OMY so pervasive, especially at high incomes. OP is discovering first hand just how hard it is to walk away from what looks like easy money.

Now personally, I think leaving a multi-generation legacy to your own family is kind of BS. I've never had a rich ancestor, but if I did, I'm pretty sure I would spend exactly 0 time thinking about how great he was and would instead treat it as the new normal.

[Fishindude]

I'm curious what the young US retirees are doing for health insurance coverage?
Unless you worked in the government sector and get some type of pension with heath insurance coverage, most will have to purchase health insurance privately.   From the little investigation I've done it will run roughly $1000 per month for a high deductible plan for my wife and I (mid 50's).  $12K per year for insurance eats up a whole lot of some these early retirees budgets.




 

[Spork]

I'm curious what the young US retirees are doing for health insurance coverage?
Unless you worked in the government sector and get some type of pension with heath insurance coverage, most will have to purchase health insurance privately.   From the little investigation I've done it will run roughly $1000 per month for a high deductible plan for my wife and I (mid 50's).  $12K per year for insurance eats up a whole lot of some these early retirees budgets.

We're paying about $250 for a couple right about 50 (with subsidies targeted at 300% FPL) for a high deductible plan.  This insurance does suck a little.  It's getting hard to find doctors in my state that take the one and only provider. 

I've had a few odd income events this year... so this may implode and I may be paying it back in taxes.  We'll see in February.

I'm also thinking of shopping around for non-ACA plans this fall to compare coverage vs cost.

[jim555]

I am on a Medicaid Managed Care plan.

[Spork]

My summary of this conversation so far in analogy:

Singuy: Why do you guys eat Brussels Sprouts?
MMM'er: Because they are delicious.
Singuy: But I do not like them.
MMM'er:  Have you tried this recipe?  http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/anne-burrell/roasted-brussels-sprouts-with-bacon-recipe.html
Singuy: I won't like that.  It has Brussels sprouts in it.
MMM'er: Um... Okay.  Maybe you'd like a hamburger?
Singuy: But why do you guys eat Brussels sprouts?

[Bucksandreds]

I'm curious what the young US retirees are doing for health insurance coverage?
Unless you worked in the government sector and get some type of pension with heath insurance coverage, most will have to purchase health insurance privately.   From the little investigation I've done it will run roughly $1000 per month for a high deductible plan for my wife and I (mid 50's).  $12K per year for insurance eats up a whole lot of some these early retirees budgets.

Keep your MAGI low and you get subsidies.  Im going to cut back hours to part time at some point and qualify for about 50% off the silver plan and that is as a dentist.  I should be able to have an HSA too which is maybe the best retirement planning vehicle that there is.

[Spork]

I'm curious what the young US retirees are doing for health insurance coverage?
Unless you worked in the government sector and get some type of pension with heath insurance coverage, most will have to purchase health insurance privately.   From the little investigation I've done it will run roughly $1000 per month for a high deductible plan for my wife and I (mid 50's).  $12K per year for insurance eats up a whole lot of some these early retirees budgets.

Keep your MAGI low and you get subsidies.  Im going to cut back hours to part time at some point and qualify for about 50% off the silver plan and that is as a dentist.  I should be able to have an HSA too which is maybe the best retirement planning vehicle that there is.

This.  HSA contributions come right off your MAGI.  You can "drop" your income by $6750 (married) by moving money from one account to another.

[GuitarStv]

Don't you guys eventually want to feel what's like to eat at a better restaurant, travel lavishly, or drive a better car?

Why assume that anyone who wants to FIRE hasn't tried those things?[/li][/list]

I am assuming this because if the person/family have tried those things..then they will have a hard time hitting FIRE. How many of you guys bought a Lambo, spent 2k eating at a restaurant, or 50k on a vacation?

Your premise that it is necessary to experience extremely expensive/extravagant stuff to know if you would enjoy them or not is flawed.  Have you ever shoved a cantaloupe up your ass while masturbating to achieve a better orgasm?  No?  Then how do you know that this wouldn't be much better than any sex you've ever had then?  Most people get to know themselves well enough to figure out if they'll enjoy an activity without actually having to do it to be sure.

I've never in my life wanted to own any car.  I think Lamborghinis are kinda cool looking, but have no desire whatsoever to drive one around other than maybe in a video game.  My experience with food is that having roasted hot dogs under the stars around a campfire with friends tastes much better than pricey meals in a restaurant.  There's some travel that I'd love to do, but none of it requires tremendous amounts of money to be enjoyable (a lot of it will involve cycling and tents though).

[ender]

How did you ultra early retirees decided that you want to retire super young(as in under 40) like MMM.  Everyone here focuses how time is valuable and precious, how you don't want to waste it working for the cooperate world and etc...I get that..it makes sense. No one wants to give their entire live dedicated to something that's not enjoyable. So if you are 47, 51, 54..sure yes..time can be considered as a limited resource. But when you are under 40, time is of abundance. We are talking about a possible 40-50 years of retirement!

I am wondering about those who are in their early, mid or late 30s with children. What made you decide to FIRE so early?  How do you cope with ALL the extra free time when your kids are at school? Do you no longer have the desire to accumulate more wealth for perhaps leaving your children a legacy..building yourself one, or wanting a different kind of retirement that is less penny pinching? And is your time really well spent at home being tied down by your kid's education and needs vs putting up with hours at the office?

Some people need work to provide structure and meaning to their lives. It sounds like you fall into this category. Presumably you are in a high status, high respect field which also gives you a social benefit to your occupation.

For many, the fear and anxiety of "my life will be meaningless?" feeling you experience when considering not working comes from having to spend their lives at work.

[Spork]

There are 2 ways to start looking at life:
1.  God damn!  Life is awesome.  I've never really been hungry or cold or worried that the world would absolutely disintegrate around me.
2.  Crap. My fillet mignon is cold.  Life sucks.

If you start from #1, it is entirely possible, even probable that you're going to be happier in life.
If you start from #2, it is probable that you are going to be unfulfilled.

FIRE folks do have occasional splurges.  They spend money.  It turns out that in FIRE your expenses go down.  Money goes further.  But even when we do splurge, there is a serious moment of enjoying the setting that comes with the fact that it is special.

We have one restaurant in town that is really high end.  My sister "doesn't go much" ... but the waiters know her name and what she wants to drink.  "Not much" is probably once a month.  It becomes something you do just to get out of the house.  It isn't special.  The last time I went was about 3 years ago.  I think my enjoyment is higher.  For me: it's always special.

[aceyou]

Welcome Singuy!

No intervention needed, I think you asked a valid and respectful question.  Here's my response...

Being a Mustachian isn't about a 20k/year lifestyle, not even to MMM himself (that just happens to be near the number that he posts in his annual spending report).  It's about doing the following:

1.  Figure out what happiness means to you. 
2.  Determine approximately what level of annual spending it will take to make that happen. 
3.  Times that number by 25, and boom, there's your FI number.  If that's 20k/year, cool, but it's totally irrelevant.  The number could be 50k/year and you can be just as mustachian as MMM himself...it's all about the process and mindset. 
4.  Determine the route that YOU want to take to get to that number.  For some it means work as much as possible doing shitty jobs to get there ASAP, for others it means a slower but happier route, or possibly getting mostly there, then slowly stepping your foot off the gas to transition. 

Here's the path I'm choosing:
Me: 33
DW: 32
We will teach till we are 48.  So, teach for 15 more years, and we will save 50% of our income along the way.  At the end, we ought to have about 2 million saved, plus two pensions, plus a paid off house.  This is maybe 3 or 4 times the money we will need...we will likely be FI based on our spending by age 41 or so.  And maybe we'll just say F it and quit earlier since we won't need the money.  The point is that by making small changes to our lifestyle, we save a shit ton more money, and we are happier to boot knowing that our financial future is rock solid.  Knowing that we will be able to do nearly anything has inspired me to want to become fluent in spanish (my wife speaks the language) so that we can travel more of the world together.  So, MMM is making me richer, less wasteful, happier, and is motivating me to educating myself in new and exciting ways. 

It's about taking care of money so that your choices in life stop being tied to money.  Pick your own FI number, your own goals, and start having fun!!!  Good luck:)

[Mr. Green]

That's because all you guys are so focused on making an intervention.

I have a few answers but no one really addresses the question I was asking.

How did you ultra early retirees decided that you want to retire super young(as in under 40) like MMM.  Everyone here focuses how time is valuable and precious, how you don't want to waste it working for the cooperate world and etc...I get that..it makes sense. No one wants to give their entire live dedicated to something that's not enjoyable. So if you are 47, 51, 54..sure yes..time can be considered as a limited resource. But when you are under 40, time is of abundance. We are talking about a possible 40-50 years of retirement!

I am wondering about those who are in their early, mid or late 30s with children. What made you decide to FIRE so early?  How do you cope with ALL the extra free time when your kids are at school? Do you no longer have the desire to accumulate more wealth for perhaps leaving your children a legacy..building yourself one, or wanting a different kind of retirement that is less penny pinching? And is your time really well spent at home being tied down by your kid's education and needs vs putting up with hours at the office?

I FIRE'd in June and I'm 32, but I'm about to return to work for a few months while we build our house. We're getting ready to start a family. I've wanted to FIRE for almost 10 years. I wanted to control what I did, every minute of every day. Why? These were my reasons.

Dad needs help with a project for a week. I no longer have to ask off work to go help him, or wish I could but know I can't just up and leave. The flooding in Louisiana pulls at my heart strings so I drive down there and volunteer for 3 weeks helping clean up. My children take an interest in the Spanish language so we go live in a foreign country for a month so we can immerse them in it. My wife gets cancer and I can spend every waking second with her because you just never know how long you have. Grandpa is starting to go down hill and I drive up to stay with him for a while since everyone else is working. I see a homeless person on a street corner and because I'm no longer rushed, I actually stop and offer to get the guy some food instead of just wishing I could as I drive by him.

I can do all of those things, right now (they're hypothetical). I couldn't do those things when I was working. Is it worth having less money to be able to do those things? Fuck yeah. Those are just my reasons for me.

[Singuy]

I appreciate all the response. The one about being afraid to FIRE is pretty spot on. It is definitely a mental road block, especially coming from a very hard working Asian immigrant family background..the thought of FIRE when easy money is abundance doesn't even belong in the same sentence. If you ever talk to my dad, who worked 2-3 min wage jobs most of his life/day, will tell me to go out and get a second job right now because I make more/hr than he ever did. At the same time, he will tell me to continue to live a very frugal life. They are the type who still puts water to dilute hand soap or sleep without the a/c on, despite their 2 million net worth with a passive income of 35k/year.

The other day, I suggested the idea of having the wife work 7 on, 7 off when the time comes, and we just hire someone to do the other 7 on(like in 2 years)..wife will still net about 130k/year. My mom was like "wtf are you guys going to do not working at such a young age?..that's just nonsense!".  I come from families who are not big spenders and are big savers. They are also all workaholics and all wish to save up a legacy..want to make sure the next generation is way better off. If you ask why my parents are still on a very lean spending diet, their response is "so we can leave this money to you" and there's no convincing them out of this..I have tried so many times. ...which actually makes me feel like kind of a dick to just FIRE at such a young age since my wife and I can actually build a legacy for our family name. 

[FIREdancer]

My summary of this conversation so far in analogy:

Singuy: Why do you guys eat Brussels Sprouts?
MMM'er: Because they are delicious.
Singuy: But I do not like them.
MMM'er:  Have you tried this recipe?  http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/anne-burrell/roasted-brussels-sprouts-with-bacon-recipe.html
Singuy: I won't like that.  It has Brussels sprouts in it.
MMM'er: Um... Okay.  Maybe you'd like a hamburger?
Singuy: But why do you guys eat Brussels sprouts?

Haha. Spot on, Spork.  I was going to add a response to this conversation but realized it would be pointless.

[TexasRunner]

Singuy, I know it is ridiculously corny but have you considered writing a bucket list?  I needed too in order to really grasp the potential for FIRE.  Just as an example, here is mine:

1.   Financially Independent (Employment Optional) with 0$ Dept.
2.   Get an Associate’s Degree.
3.   Get a Bachelor’s Degree.
4.   Get a Master’s Degree.
5.   Get a Doctorate.
6.   Get another Degree in an Art’s-Only field.
7.   Hike the Appalachian Trail.
8.   Bike from one coast to the other.
9.   See all three kids get a college degree (if they choose too).
10.   Never miss a son/daughter’s birthday or graduation.
11.   Teach at a school south of Mexico.
12.   Learn to read and write Spanish.
13.   Learn to read and write Ancient Greek.
14.   Skydive without an instructor.
15.   See (the rest of) Europe.
16.   See the Himalayans.
17.   See Africa.
18.   Go to the World Cup.
19.   Go to the Olympics.
20.   Run the Boston Marathon.
21.   Run an ultra-marathon (at least 49 miles).
22.   Visit St. Mark’s Basilica.
23.   Write a published book.
24.   Learn Guitar and perform in a metal band.
25.   Visit Normandy.
26.   Meet a United States President.
27.   Meet a Governor of Texas.
28.   Teach a university course.
29.   Act as a missionary for over two years.
30.   Help build/establish an orphanage.
31.   Help build/establish a no-cost University.
32.   Memorize a book of the Bible.
33.   Fund an international student.
34.   Build a Motorcycle.
35.   Refurbish a Classic Car.
36.   Invent Something.
37.   Build a house.
38.   Build a self-sustaining house.
39.   Build a house and donate it to someone in need.
40.   Complete a 40-day fast (if ever called to do so).
41.   Design a self-sustaining community plan.
42.   Become (and learn how to be) a Starbucks barista.
43.   Become a pilot.
44.   Fly an ultra-lite.
45.   Fly a helicopter.
46.   See the Promised Land.
47.   See Calvary.
48.   See Petra.
49.   See the Great Wall of China.
50.   See For Today and Demon Hunter in Concert.
51.  ...you get the point.

Edit: A vast majority of these things will only be possibly (or significantly easier) if I was FIRE.  Maybe writing out some long-term life goals will give you the ability to analyze them to see if you need to FIRE and when.  Just my two cents.

[Lyssa]

ok i've read through the whole thread and singuy just doesn't understand the concept of subjectivity. that not everyone has the same interests or desires. he also doesn't seem to be interested in anyone's answer to his original question, since a lot of people have given sincere responses and he simply refuses to accept them.

i think everyone in this thread has made an honest attempt to give a helpful reply.

That's because all you guys are so focused on making an intervention.

I have a few answers but no one really addresses the question I was asking.

How did you ultra early retirees decided that you want to retire super young(as in under 40) like MMM.  Everyone here focuses how time is valuable and precious, how you don't want to waste it working for the cooperate world and etc...I get that..it makes sense. No one wants to give their entire live dedicated to something that's not enjoyable. So if you are 47, 51, 54..sure yes..time can be considered as a limited resource. But when you are under 40, time is of abundance. We are talking about a possible 40-50 years of retirement!

I am wondering about those who are in their early, mid or late 30s with children. What made you decide to FIRE so early?  How do you cope with ALL the extra free time when your kids are at school? Do you no longer have the desire to accumulate more wealth for perhaps leaving your children a legacy..building yourself one, or wanting a different kind of retirement that is less penny pinching? And is your time really well spent at home being tied down by your kid's education and needs vs putting up with hours at the office?

I am currently 34 and plan to FIRE around 40 (hopefully a bit earlier). I absolutely, vehemently disagree that time is of abundance.

I also have a pretty solid idea what I enjoy and value in life and what kind of expenses make me happier and what kind does not. Frankly, I think anybody should have that figured out before midlife crisis sets in...

As a child I had the idea that I could read all or at least most books during my lifetime.

By now, I am very aware that I cannot.

Having a family, learning maybe one or two knew languages, maybe go to university again to study something different, travel the parts of the world that I want to see, master a few new skills every decade is going to keep me plenty busy for 40 years.

I have no interest in working a few additional years in order to hedge against the remote possibility that one morning I wake up with a sudden desire to own a Porsche.

Apart from my lacking desire for luxury cars I consider the ability to tell people 'no' the biggest luxury of all. I work with and for wealthy and super wealthy people. Most of them are still driven by external factors, are still afraid of the judgment of certain others, hence are still trying to please and to fit in and throw themselves the occasional pity-party.

I don't want to adapt and to adjust my perspective as my wealth increases because it does not lead anywhere.

[Gimesalot]

Ahhhhh!  Due to your last post they all make sense now.  You have no idea what to do with your life because you are from a working immigrant family.  I also am for an immigrant working family, but we're Hispanic, so not as hardcore. 

Here's the thing your parent will never understand,  you've made it.  My parents don't get this either.  You've made it so you no longer have to work.  It's a difficult concept for them to grasp, and they've indoctrinated you to think that way as well.

Just as a reference, my husband and I make slightly less that you and you're wife.  We love to travel and take several trips a year.  Just this year I have been to Phoenix three times, Panama, New York, and Austin.  For the rest of this year I have 2 weeks in Protugal, Chicago, Dallas, Phoenix, and probably one more place.  Next year is Hawaii, Mexico, Guatemala, Argentina, NYC, San Francisco, and probably a few more.  My travel budget for the year is $6000 for two people.  You can travel and be budget conscious, especially if you "want to live like the locals."

Also, as someone that routinely spends a metric shit-ton eating at super high-end fancy and expensive restaurants, I have now come to prefer middle-of-the-road places more.  So when we go somewhere, hubby and I will pick and like the $30 per person place more often than the $150 per person place.

One more thing to add, I am planning on cutting loose in one year, just before I turn 34.  Here are the things I plan on doing:
Becoming a professional tango dancer
hanging out with my grandmas and cousins
learning Greek dancing
Going to Antarctica, Galapagos, Easter Island
Getting a job where I move sloths off roads so they don't get run over
Getting a job as a dancing cow in the dairy section of Mexican supermarkets
Considering a party bus business
Starting a tour company
learning French, Portuguese, and Chinese
reading more than one book a month
learning about wine making
studying photography
learning to sew well so that I can start a clothing line
making pottery
starting a tango retreat
become a yoga teacher?
Start a social media marketing company for businesses based in Spanish speaking countries

So I don't really plan on stopping for a while

[Fishindude]

I agree with your thinking Singuy.
You're not ready for early FIRE yet, and nothing wrong with that.  I'd keep working and building your stash till the kids are on their own, then live it up. 

I am in similar circumstances a few years older than you, 56 and retiring to just some part time work very soon.  Kids are raised, everything is paid for and we have more than enough to do pretty much whatever we want in our remaining years.   Standard retirement age these days is 67, so that's still ten years ahead of most of the US which makes me happy.   We can't live on $40K per year, need more like $150K to do all of the stuff we like to do.

[big_slacker]

20k a year doesn't cover my rent, lol!

But the original post sounded more like "Don't you want more?" The answer is I've had more and it didn't make me any happier.

But now that we get some clarification it's more like, "I don't know what I'd like to do in life if I had all the time in the world." Which is just fine. So keep working if you're fine doing that and you'll figure out what is right for you.

[TexasRunner]

The cultural aspect makes sense now.

Fire if you want too, don't fire if you don't.  :)  Leaving a legacy for your kids can be a lot more than money (IMO), having your kids grow up where mom and dad weren't working all the time can be significantly more important than if they get 5mil when they are 50 and your die at 85.  I understand the culture is to always be productive, always be working and always always succeed, but you may need to be willing to redefine what success is for you.  It probably isn't the difference of having a 1.5mil portfolio when you die compared to a 10mil portfolio.  It might just be the 15-20 years you got to spend with your kids and raise them well...

You willingly admit your parents were workaholics (one of mine was too, and one of my spouse's), how did that affect you?  How did that hurt you?  Did it hurt your spouse?  Do you want to do the same thing to your kids?...

Best of luck.

[Laserjet3051]

What I really want to do is to travel. Not your typical 2 weeks type traveling, but I want to go to a place and live there for a month..really soak up in the culture and experience their lives. This of course takes a lot of cash and time. At our age, we can't just ditch our kids and go on a 6 months vacation. So I ask you guys out there..what is there to do when you retire under 40 and you have kids?

Your inquiry is very revealing. Personally, I will not retire until well after many here on this board, due to leading a life of many regrettable fiscal mistakes. However there are many things I would do if I could retire, even with kids (I have 2). They would be:

incessant Surfing (free)
incessant mountain biking (free)
incessant mountain climbing, rock climbing, hiking, backpacking (free)
non-stop DH skiing (ok, not so free, but discounted season passes can be priced reasonably, live near the resort as well)
boat loads of road cycling (free)
snorkeling (free)
fishing (free)

There are more things on my list but I will stop here. While these activities incur an upfront equipment cost, once the equiptment is owned, the pursuit of joy is virtually free (skiing being the exception). I could honestly pursue these activities for the rest of my life, if I could only buy the time to do so...

[Jaguar Paw]

Come on guys!!! Stop feeding the post!!! He talked about a Lamborghini and a 1000 dinner at some point!

[Caymanite]

My summary of this conversation so far in analogy:

Singuy: Why do you guys eat Brussels Sprouts?
MMM'er: Because they are delicious.
Singuy: But I do not like them.
MMM'er:  Have you tried this recipe?  http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/anne-burrell/roasted-brussels-sprouts-with-bacon-recipe.html
Singuy: I won't like that.  It has Brussels sprouts in it.
MMM'er: Um... Okay.  Maybe you'd like a hamburger?
Singuy: But why do you guys eat Brussels sprouts?

Hilarious!

[neo von retorch]

This reminds me of two things.

One
When you're a kid, and you might think "When I grow up, I'll be rich and I'll buy the Lamborghini that's in the poster on my bedroom wall!" Except, then you grow up, and you realize you have to work long and hard just to get ahead, let alone to spend lavishly on crème de la crème vehicles, and you decide to live a little differently after all. (Also most of us did not grow up to be firemen, veterinarians and astronauts.)

Two
John Mulaney does a bit on Donald Trump where he says "Donald Trump is like what a hobo imagines a rich man to be" and goes on to describe "when I'm rich, I'll put my NAME on every building!" and so on. We grow up learning certain preconceived notions of what success, being rich and happiness all mean. Hopefully when presented with some compelling arguments that differ from those preconceptions, we figure out how to let go of them and accept an alternative.

[charis]

snip

They are the type who still puts water to dilute hand soap or sleep without the a/c on, despite their 2 million net worth with a passive income of 35k/year.

I think this reveals part of the mindset that you need to shake off.  There is no reason not to dilute hand soap.  And fresh air is always preferable to a/c (unless the heat is preventing sleep).   I see a lot of folks who seem to value waste just because they can "afford" it, as if conservation is a mark of being poor or low class - if you can afford not to do such-and-such, why would you? is their take on life.  Some people (most people here), however, don't buy that particular cultural "stigma."

[Glenstache]

What I really want to do is to travel. Not your typical 2 weeks type traveling, but I want to go to a place and live there for a month..really soak up in the culture and experience their lives. This of course takes a lot of cash and time. At our age, we can't just ditch our kids and go on a 6 months vacation. So I ask you guys out there..what is there to do when you retire under 40 and you have kids?

Some friends of mine recently moved to Mexico for 2 years with their 4 yo daughter... to soak up the culture and experience their lives. Stop looking for reasons why you can't go do the things you want to do. Figure out HOW to do them. You've mentioned wanting to travel several times, go do it! If you want specific tips on traveling with kids and slow travel, there are tons of people with years of experience on this forum to get ideas from. Putting off living your life for FI is antithetical to what this group is all about. 

The core element of mustachianism is intentional use of money as a tool- recognizing that there is an opportunity cost. That opportunity cost is not "if I buy the red spatula, I won't have enough resources to also have the green blender." The opportunity cost is In order to have this $1,000 in my retirement account, I have to trade in XX hours/days of my life- is transaction XX worth it? Many on this forum (myself included) enjoy their careers and will continue working because it is fulfilling work. For others, they may as well be in prison when they get to work and that FI date can't arrive soon enough.

You also seem like a goal oriented person. As a person who thrives when having a carrot on a stick to chase after, I get that. Quite frankly, the transition to FIRE can be very difficult psychologically for this personality type if there isn't a foundation of "other" interests already in place. This is all the more reason to aggressively get out there and get involved in things that are interesting. Yes, you may find some new things in retirement that take money (a friend of mine recently got into flying and holy crap is that expensive!), but if you get out there now, you will have lower uncertainty about that as you go into FIRE. As a side note, the more hobbies and interests you have outside of work the more valuable your time becomes.

[Frugal D]

I think we've been trolled...

[Glenstache]

I appreciate all the response. The one about being afraid to FIRE is pretty spot on. It is definitely a mental road block, especially coming from a very hard working Asian immigrant family background..the thought of FIRE when easy money is abundance doesn't even belong in the same sentence. If you ever talk to my dad, who worked 2-3 min wage jobs most of his life/day, will tell me to go out and get a second job right now because I make more/hr than he ever did. At the same time, he will tell me to continue to live a very frugal life. They are the type who still puts water to dilute hand soap or sleep without the a/c on, despite their 2 million net worth with a passive income of 35k/year.

The other day, I suggested the idea of having the wife work 7 on, 7 off when the time comes, and we just hire someone to do the other 7 on(like in 2 years)..wife will still net about 130k/year. My mom was like "wtf are you guys going to do not working at such a young age?..that's just nonsense!".  I come from families who are not big spenders and are big savers. They are also all workaholics and all wish to save up a legacy..want to make sure the next generation is way better off. If you ask why my parents are still on a very lean spending diet, their response is "so we can leave this money to you" and there's no convincing them out of this..I have tried so many times. ...which actually makes me feel like kind of a dick to just FIRE at such a young age since my wife and I can actually build a legacy for our family name.

This makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing it. I've had this conversation with my parents as well. I think the concept of legacy is valuable. But, what are the important parts of legacy? Self-reliance, a good work ethic, good interpersonal skills, solid values, and appreciation are probably more important than a trust fund. Warren Buffet, who could leave a pretty sizable legacy, is not leaving it to his kids and is telling them to make it on their own. From what I have read, his kids are involved with and doing some pretty impressive ventures. I think there is a really powerful lesson in this. The legacy I have from my parents is something that I live with, and have built upon through my life and has little to do with how much $$ I may receive when they pass on. It sounds like you may be in a similar situation.

[tonysemail]

I appreciate all the response. The one about being afraid to FIRE is pretty spot on. It is definitely a mental road block, especially coming from a very hard working Asian immigrant family background..the thought of FIRE when easy money is abundance doesn't even belong in the same sentence. If you ever talk to my dad, who worked 2-3 min wage jobs most of his life/day, will tell me to go out and get a second job right now because I make more/hr than he ever did. At the same time, he will tell me to continue to live a very frugal life. They are the type who still puts water to dilute hand soap or sleep without the a/c on, despite their 2 million net worth with a passive income of 35k/year.

The other day, I suggested the idea of having the wife work 7 on, 7 off when the time comes, and we just hire someone to do the other 7 on(like in 2 years)..wife will still net about 130k/year. My mom was like "wtf are you guys going to do not working at such a young age?..that's just nonsense!".  I come from families who are not big spenders and are big savers. They are also all workaholics and all wish to save up a legacy..want to make sure the next generation is way better off. If you ask why my parents are still on a very lean spending diet, their response is "so we can leave this money to you" and there's no convincing them out of this..I have tried so many times. ...which actually makes me feel like kind of a dick to just FIRE at such a young age since my wife and I can actually build a legacy for our family name.

You definitely should not FIRE cold turkey.  7 on, 7 off is an Okay idea.  You should explore it further and ignore your parents.
Your parents did very well for themselves, but don't let their choices dictate your life.  I doubt they will ever "get it".

I know how you feel because I'm living in this situation too.
I plan to FIRE at 39 while my parents continue working a shitty job.
There's no denying that I have guilt over this.
Yeah, I feel like a dick.  One year of W-2 for me is worth many years of savings for them.
But they've made terrible financial choices and I decided long ago to stop bailing them out.

My overall sense from your posts is that you should continue working for many reasons.
But explore ways to go part time and find meaning in your life.
It's a great situation and there's a lot of good you can do with a larger stash.

IMO you're at the beginning of a long transformation and I would advise that you keep an open mind.
Don't actively reinforce your mental hurdles.
And try instead to view things with a fresh perspective.

[MrMoogle]

This idea seems really new to you.  You need to think about it, give it time to sink in.  You do not have to make any decisions today, or even this year.  Talk about it with your wife.  Take some time to work out your thoughts, then get on the same page.  Do not rush it, it can take a year or more for you both to finally get comfortable to it.  You're going against the mainstream, and it takes time to adjust to do that.  Even if you decide it's not for you, I'll bet you'll learn something about yourselves.

[deeshen13]

I think one of the main pieces lacking for Singuy is his lack of hobbies/passions/interests, etc.

Many posters are overlooking this aspect because it is just unfathomable. We find work to be getting in the way of our other pursuits. However, for Sunguy, he is struggling to come up with what he would do for even a day off of work. He laments, "why would I want to just watch TV all day?"

Hence, I don't think this is a financial/value question that everyone is emphasizing, but rather a call-to-action that Singuy needs to develop his hobbies/passions/interests. It's depressing, but I know many people who merely conclude, "Why would I FIRE, I'll be so bored!"

Singuy, you've been dropped into this ball of rock that is hurling through space at millions of miles per hour. In a universe that is endless, dark, and cold, your ball of rock is blue, green, and white -- decadent with life. On that rock, you have the ability to explore it, explore the people, cultures, and history. You can read endlessly on wide-ranging topics, increase your physical aptitude in countless ways, try incredible foods, and so much more. Best of all, you'll get to share these experiences with the other Homo Sapians on the rock, some of which you can hopefully call your loved ones. Dream brother! Best of luck.

[BTDretire]

I know most of you guys are currently living a cheap/frugal life...probably spending no more than 20k/year.

Hmm, I consider we are living a frugal life, but closer to $40k or $45k a year.

So at a 4% withdraw rate, all you need is around 500k plus a paid off house to reach FIRE. My question is..why?  So none of you guys have any desire to live a life beyond your current mustachian lifestyle?  Don't you guys eventually want to feel what's like to eat at a better restaurant, travel lavishly, or drive a better car?

I'm with you, I want 3 times that.
As far as cars, I have two 1997's and a 2001, and I don't have any desire for anything newer.
We don't eat out much and don't miss it. There are a few in country places I'd like to visit once I retire,
but it will be well within my income.

I mean if you decide to have 1.5mil instead of 500k, you can have the option to live the 20k lifestyle(and become more wealthy) OR just start to blow your 60k/year..  I'm not sure if I'll ever be onboard with this frugal culture forever.

Oh, I think we will always be frugal, but there is no sadness caused by it.

My wife and I, with our current lifestyle can be FIRE if we want to...sell our house..get a condo..and start the withdraw rate of 4% and we'll be gravy. Also her business will generate a passive income of over 100k/year.  I don't see why we would want to do that since we are only 33 and our child is not even 1 yo....

You have hit the jackpot with your income.
 Our average income for the last 34 years is $43,000.
We have saved and the stock market helped, a lot.
Firecalc says we can safely live on $75,000 and after 30 years
the kids can still inherit between $1M and $10M.
But I'm well aware Firecalc is backward looking, that's the best
you can do. Nobodies crystal ball works.

To your question, I'm not retiring early at 61, and I'm not suffering any affects
of a frugal lifestyle. People retire early because they have things
they would rather do then work to produce income they don't
have a need for. Really a wonderful outcome for many.
Others need to work because they can't figure out what to do
with their time. I hope to find enough, but not to much.