The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Aloysius_Poutine on February 29, 2012, 05:06:29 PM
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I want to get an idea of what type of people are interested in learning the mustachian ways, so answer the poll with one answer from each category. Thanks.
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Neat idea, I love this!
Question: I'm struggling with the "debts" part. If I have 6 rental properties that have mortgages (well 4 of them do), do I count those? Cause I mean, I guess they are technically debts, but they are good debts, and they're by choice (I actually do have the cash to pay all of the 4 mortgages). So... ??
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This poll makes me sad. I was debt free, but my car died far quicker than I expected. Which is a problem when your job entails driving within a 60 mile radius. Enter Kia. I'm gonna pay it off. In less than two years. But still...
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Yeah, this polling system doesn't allow me to get really technical with the responses. I guess it'll have to be open ended-- are they 'debts' to you?
I was thinking along the lines of debts you have to service each month-- ie. consumer debts or student loans. If your tenants pay the mortgage for you, I personally wouldn't consider it a debt. Your call though.
I can also edit the poll (I think). So if we get tons of "other" responses to the residence question, for example, I can open that up to more specificity. Those of you who reside in "other"- chime in with your location!
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There is no option for serious relationship.
I'm not married, but I'm not single either.
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Hmm, I wonder if these should be split into separate polls and threads.
Right now it's showing 10 votes for married (12.8%) and 5 for single (6.4%).. but really, since those are the only two options for relationship status, that should be 66% and 33%. That is, because there are so many options irrelevant to each other, but all counting for the percentages, the percentages are basically meaningless (and you have to recalculate each one you want - the relationship status is simple, but for the others it takes a bit more work).
I do like the idea of getting a profile of the "average" Mustachian and/or seeing how much we all differ!
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Thanks for editing the married option to include that important demographic. As you can tell I whipped this up on the fly.
Yeah, the percentages don't mean a thing here. What we need is a survey rather than a single poll.
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I'm the only high school graduate so far. Yikes. Usually there's a "Some college" option so I don't sound so bumpkin-ish. :P
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I'm the only high school graduate so far. Yikes. Usually there's a "Some college" option so I don't sound so bumpkin-ish. :P
You are not alone, I have a GED and took some college classes and my wife is the one with a Master Degree.
I do however consider myself both to be an Autodidactic and a Polymath. Our combined income should be over 100K but I took a 4 month break in my business last year that turned out to be a very disastrous move and has driven my income from 60K down to 23K, struggling to turn that around for 2012. The joys of being self employed.
:)
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One of the biggest motivators in finally finishing my AS and AA degrees was so I could say I was a college graduate :P
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Yeah, my only debt is on a rental property as well, but I still included it in the poll.
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Interesting mix of household income: we've got a lot of <$40K earners, and a good chunk of $150K+ earners too. I guess frugality is the thread that ties us all together regardless of income.
I'm not going to read too much into the debt results, seeing as some are considering mortgages debts while others aren't.
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Neat idea, I love this!
Question: I'm struggling with the "debts" part. If I have 6 rental properties that have mortgages (well 4 of them do), do I count those? Cause I mean, I guess they are technically debts, but they are good debts, and they're by choice (I actually do have the cash to pay all of the 4 mortgages). So... ??
They should change the option from debt total to a debt to income ratio. That would be much more informative.
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Neat idea, I love this!
Question: I'm struggling with the "debts" part. If I have 6 rental properties that have mortgages (well 4 of them do), do I count those? Cause I mean, I guess they are technically debts, but they are good debts, and they're by choice (I actually do have the cash to pay all of the 4 mortgages). So... ??
They should change the option from debt total to a debt to income ratio. That would be much more informative.
Debt to 'stache ratio might be even better, or both.
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Neat idea, I love this!
Question: I'm struggling with the "debts" part. If I have 6 rental properties that have mortgages (well 4 of them do), do I count those? Cause I mean, I guess they are technically debts, but they are good debts, and they're by choice (I actually do have the cash to pay all of the 4 mortgages). So... ??
They should change the option from debt total to a debt to income ratio. That would be much more informative.
Debt to 'stache ratio might be even better, or both.
Or possibly add monthly expenses to the poll or a ratio of income to expenses.
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That's a good idea too.
We should crowdsource the best demographic questions, then run them as separate polls.
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My vote for a demographic would be net worth or debt to 'stache ratio.
Monthly expenses strike me as too variable to be interesting--
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Monthly expenses strike me as too variable to be interesting--
That's true, some places are much more expensive to live in, some are married with kids versus being single, etc.
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Hello! I had trouble with the "debts" question, too, as many frugality blogs put mortgages in a category apart from consumer debts. I answered including my mortgage (only $200K left to pay off! sigh.)
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Well we've had 102 people vote so far, so let's total up to get some results!
(Note: Not all 102 participants voted in every category, but all percents should add to 100.)
The votes are totaled in the poll already, but the percentages don't make sense since they're a percentage of everything, so that's what I'm trying to fix here.
Family Status:
66% Married
33% Single
Household Income:
23% make < $40k / yr
13% make $40k - 60k / yr
13% make $60k - 80k / yr
10% make $80k - 100k / yr
27% make $100 - 150k / yr
14% make $150k+ / yr
Debts:
38% have no debts
10% have $0 - 10k in debt
11% have $10k - 30k in debt
12% have $30k - 60k in debt
8% have $60k - 100k in debt
21% have $100k+ in debt
Highest level of education:
7% have a High School Diploma
58% have a College/University Degree
35% have a Master's degree or PhD
Residence:
79% reside in the USA
9% reside in Canada
5% reside in the UK
7% reside in a place other than those three
So we can quite strongly say that the average Mustachian is married, lives in the US, and has a college degree.
The debts and income have quite a spread, and are fairly balanced between them, but what's interesting to me is that they're both top/bottom heavy (more respondants polling on the extremes). For example, we can tentatively say that he/she most likely makes either less than 40k/yr or makes 6 figures a year, and likely has either no debts or 6 figures worth of debts.
I leave you to draw your own conclusions based on this data. Just figured I'd total the percentages from the raw numbers, to make it easier to consume. Hope you find it as interesting as I do. :)
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Of course, the numbers are pretty low yet to really make any statistically relevant statements, but I do have an optimistic opinion of how to read the "bimodal distribution of debts".
It goes to show the effectiveness of Mustachian living. You have folks joining us who are in debt and are learning. And you have folks who have been living the solution. There are fewer people in the middle because the results are dramatic and effective, and faster than you may expect.
Once you decide to tackle your (unwanted) debt and live the lifestyle necessary to do it, it doesn't take forever to see the real change. and you have a big swing from "lots of unwanted debt" to "no unwanted debt" with not as much time spent in the middle!
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I also found the income and debt spreads quite interesting. It seems like those who appreciate the MMM way of life either have no debt or are drowning in it.
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The sad thing is I didn't need to include either of our two houses to break into the highest debt category :(
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Of course, the numbers are pretty low yet to really make any statistically relevant statements, but I do have an optimistic opinion of how to read the "bimodal distribution of debts".
It goes to show the effectiveness of Mustachian living. You have folks joining us who are in debt and are learning. And you have folks who have been living the solution. There are fewer people in the middle because the results are dramatic and effective, and faster than you may expect.
Once you decide to tackle your (unwanted) debt and live the lifestyle necessary to do it, it doesn't take forever to see the real change. and you have a big swing from "lots of unwanted debt" to "no unwanted debt" with not as much time spent in the middle!
I like your take on it. Mine was simply that you probably have a lot of people with mortgages - I'd be interested to know what portion of those in the $100k+ range were there for anything other than a mortgage. If we're getting really nosy, we could ask how that mortgage compares to the purchase price of the house. (I, unfortunately, am one of the ones in the middle due to student loans. Home ownership with or without a mortgage is a ways away.)
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Interesting - would look forward to seeing results from a larger group.
Need more mustaches in the UK! Luckily the principles of MMM translate over the pond (even if I have to constantly convert from $ in my head!)
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I voted debt 100+ because I have a 350k mortgage on my primary residence.
Aside from that I have no debt. Which feels good, until I write that $2500/month mortgage +escrow bill.
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Yeah, my debt is almost all mortgage at <4%. There is also a lingering small student loan at 2.5% that I figure is too cheap to pay off. With inflation, it's essentially free money, and just getting to the point where the interest is negligible.
You are essentially measuring whether someone is a homeowner.
It would be a much more interesting poll if had made it multiple questions and allowed the ability to crosstab the responses.
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The income is a little tricky too though. I listed 150k+ but that's two earners 95k+64k+investment income
If I were responding as a single my income would be in the next tier down.
Married (ages 28 & 27)
Live in Washington DC Area
I'm college grad, wife has doctorate
~165k income (after tax, 401k, insurance = ~105k)
~70k Student debt (was 90k two days ago)
~10k Car loan (silly, but interest rate much lower on this than student loans)
~115k mortgage on a fully rented investment property
Currently engaged in a gradual process to convince my wife to adopt some more frugal living. Killing off one of the $20k student loans was a big step.
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I am surprised that I fall into the most common categories for the important MMM stuff (I'm single but in a relationship and in usually in Canada that are the off ones). Kinda interesting to be honest.
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Hey everybody, what's your demographic? Maybe we can get some real numbers in here if it stays at the top of the category for a little while.
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This is a good thread. Any chance we can pin it or cross link it to the "Introduce Yourself" thread? Thanks.
Would also be curious in seeing an updated version for average net worth for the MMM community. Thanks.
Cheers!
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Good idea. I made a new "welcome" sticky to direct people to the various poll threads.
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Married
Just over $40,000
Debt is a $3300 credit card, $10500 upside down vehicle loan and $500 misc.
We both have high school degrees and I have some college.
We live in the US.
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I like your take on it. Mine was simply that you probably have a lot of people with mortgages - I'd be interested to know what portion of those in the $100k+ range were there for anything other than a mortgage. If we're getting really nosy, we could ask how that mortgage compares to the purchase price of the house. (I, unfortunately, am one of the ones in the middle due to student loans. Home ownership with or without a mortgage is a ways away.)
Yep-- our mortgage debt is our only debt, and it's less than the equity in the real estate.
You could compare the debt to purchase price or to current market value. Some of us have been homeowners for longer than some others of us have been alive... and personally, we'll make our last mortgage payment when I'm 80 years old.
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I agree WRT to debt vs. net worth vs. income. They need to be associated in some fashion to draw meaningful financial pictures.
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If I have a roommate, do I include her income in "household income"?
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If I have a roommate, do I include her income in "household income"?
I'd say not unless your finances were combined.
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I'm in the highest debt category, but it's all the mortgage on our house (bought recently). We're making good progress, though.
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Perhaps we should add "savings rate percentage" to the poll. That figure is a pretty good indicator of your path to freedom.
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Prob8, good idea! I've made a new poll here (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustache-poll-how-much-do-you-save/) to ask the question.
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Single (divorced) female. No kids. No debt. Retired with a government pension income under $40K/year. Master's degree (free thanks to my favorite uncle...Uncle Sam using GI benefits). US of A citizen.
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Single female, one child, in the US, college degree. Household income $40k-$60K, but I just barely made it into this category, I'm sitting down near the $40K end. I answered no debt, as I have no consumer debt. If I include my mortgage in there, I'd be in the $100+ category, but only just barely. Maybe I should count that, but I have equity in the house, and comparable rent in my area is now more than my mortgage payment. It's good debt.
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As I missed the post with the breakdown by percentages, I threw this together with a total of 790 responses:
Number Percentages
Married 541 68.5%
Single 249 31.5%
<40K 109 13.8%
40 to 60K 110 13.9%
60 to 80K 109 13.8%
80 to 100K 112 14.2%
100 to 150K 197 24.9%
>150K 154 19.5%
Debt: 0 324 41.0%
0 to 10K 83 10.5%
10K - 30K 80 10.1%
30K - 60K 59 7.5%
60K - 100K 42 5.3%
100K+ 202 25.6%
Ed: HS 64 8.1%
College 433 54.8%
Masters/PhD 299 37.8%
Res:US 625 79.1%
Canada 71 9.0%
UK 23 2.9%
Other 76 9.6%
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Married
Highest Income level listed
No debt (no mortgage debt either)
One HS , One 4 year degree
Live in USA
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Haven't answered yet. No debt except the mortgages on the house and rental and decent equity in both, so how to answer? Some college but no college degree. How to answer? Would like to see that option in the poll.
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Interesting. I voted before reading the thread, thus I voted no debt, although I have student loan and mortgage debt, because our my stash is sufficient to pay it off today if we wished. So I guess I interpreted it more as a "net worth" question than a debt question.
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I see the topic has gone cold, but I'm new here so I did the poll. Primary residence mortgage is the biggest debt (425K). Beyond that we have a rental mortgage (didn't count it since it gets paid by the renter) and small student loan balances.
I'm college grad, wife is Master's level.
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I just recently found this as well.
In the high debt/high household income categories. Debt is student loans, but probably 'good' student loans even from the mustachian perspective -- the debt is the reason income is so high. Professional school is very recently finished which is why debt is still so high - it is dwindling fast thanks to high income + pre-existing frugality with a mustachian boost.
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Single.
Income: $60-80K.
Debt: $10-30K.
Education: University (Bachelors Degree)
Residence: Other.
The debt is a low-interest government-funded student loan, I'm in no hurry to pay off a debt that's indexed at around 2.5% and where compulsory payments are being deducted from my pay. Of course there's a good chance I'll buy a place in a couple years which winds the debt all the way up to 11.
Does anyone notice there's no option for those who didn't finish high school, or those who completed sub-degree qualifications?
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Just saw this today as well. Other = Australia.
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Wow, I'm really surprised that 75% of the respondents have either no mortgage or their mortgage is less than $100,000! Have people not been considering their mortgage as a debt, even though it is a debt?
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Wow, I'm really surprised that 75% of the respondents have either no mortgage or their mortgage is less than $100,000! Have people not been considering their mortgage as a debt, even though it is a debt?
Lots of people either A.) Renting, or B.) Aggressively paying down their mortgage and currently with less than $100k to go.
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Old thread but a fun one. No debt, and none since 1996 when I paid off my student loans. Spouse is the true mustachian, never ANY debt, and had a few hundred thou stashed (I have never learned the true amount of her savings, and I believe she does not know either) before we married.
Current income <$20K, but not FIRED, just graduated with a new degree (paid cash) and hope to get a big jump next year. House paid cash, clown cars paid cash.
I wonder about all the people at the low income level. Are they people like me, who are older and have substantial savings, and so don't feel the need to stress about current income? Or, how many are youngsters just starting out? Or...?
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Wow, I'm really surprised that 75% of the respondents have either no mortgage or their mortgage is less than $100,000! Have people not been considering their mortgage as a debt, even though it is a debt?
Lots of people either A.) Renting, or B.) Aggressively paying down their mortgage and currently with less than $100k to go.
Ah, I posted before reading up-thread. Looks like some people are not counting the mortgage as debt, and at least one person didn't even consider his student loans to be debt. But, yeah, I imagine people renting had a big impact on this measure.
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Nice poll, but it kind of doesn't capture the whole spectrum. In my particular example, I'm a university student and I still live with my parents so an appreciable portion of my core needs (i.e. food&dwelling) gets covered by them. So what would I list as the household income? What I earn by myself (which is lots less than what I actually consume) or what the whole family earns (which, again, does not really represent my own spending)? Or, as a university student nearing graduation, do I qualify as a "highest degree: High School" ( in which case (a) I get thrown in with people who did not go to college/university, and (b) It will become false in about a year's time), or as a graduate (in which case it is simply false as of right now)?
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Nice poll, but it kind of doesn't capture the whole spectrum.
Agreed- but Aloysius_Poutine stated that he meant for it to be open ended. For example, I consider my mortgage to be a "debt", since I don't think I'll consider myself completely FI until I have at least my primary residence mortgage paid off.
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You should include a category for "some college" since there are non-graduates like me who have a lot of student loan debt but never got the degree. If I had known moving in the middle would cause such issues I would have not moved.
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It would be interesting to know which respondents are already retired vs those that are still working. Our income in retirement is pretty much whatever we want it to be. My wife and I have always lived well below our means which is why we were able to retire early. Our current income is $60K, but in our last year before we retired, our household income was a little over $200K. Many in the MMM community have high savings rates while working and relatively low incomes when retired. Depending on what % of the respondents are retired, you might get incomes that are skewed lower.
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I'm retired, for income, I put in my 4%, but I sure hope my average return is closer to 7%.
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I'm retired, for income, I put in my 4%, but I sure hope my average return is closer to 7%.
Don't forget- you want that 7% to help protect against inflation and other things :-).
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A poll that purports to identify those who wish to learn mustache-an ways and then doesn’t ask a question about their assets seems to have missed the mark.
I dont see how you can draw a conclusion from the information I gave. We are in your lowest income bracket. So what? What do you do with that information?
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This thread is old, so old that I have moved categories since it was first made :)
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This thread is old, so old that I have moved categories since it was first made :)
.. and it's the thread that's old? ;)
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Hah! Me too. Many changes :)
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This thread is old, so old that I have moved categories since it was first made :)
.. and it's the thread that's old? ;)
Hey! I'll bet you've moved a category or two in this time as well :P
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A poll which gets data at a point in time is not very useful. What we need is an anonymous spreadsheet in which forum members can update net worth and current income
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I included house mortgage under the debt, which we could easily pay off. However, it makes a lot more sense to funnel the same funds into VTSAX (or equivalent) due to the incredibly low mortgage rate.
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I also included mortgage debt. We have just over $50k left on that, and no other debt.
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Mrs and I are currently renting and bought our last car with cash so I put no debt.(We've never carried a credit card balance)
We will buying a primary residence soon and plan to have that paid off in 5-10 years. We'll likely hit FIRE 5 years after the house is paid off.
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I loves me a nice necropost and a good screen name. Welcome to the forum @SinnahSaint!
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I am that guy that didnt want to be asked who he is, wears his clothes and buys his things like everyone else.
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It would be interesting to know which respondents are already retired vs those that are still working. Our income in retirement is pretty much whatever we want it to be. My wife and I have always lived well below our means which is why we were able to retire early. Our current income is $60K, but in our last year before we retired, our household income was a little over $200K. Many in the MMM community have high savings rates while working and relatively low incomes when retired. Depending on what % of the respondents are retired, you might get incomes that are skewed lower.
I agree. After all, the overall theme of this forum is FIRE.
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Necropost!! It would be interesting to see how many changes (or lack of changes) happened to people here in the 10 or so years since the OP. My situation is basicly the same but seems like other people went thru some big changes from their original plans.
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Necropost!! It would be interesting to see how many changes (or lack of changes) happened to people here in the 10 or so years since the OP. My situation is basicly the same but seems like other people went thru some big changes from their original plans.
It is interesting. Apparently, at the time of responding to this poll, we were at $100-$150K income with $100K+ debt (mortgage). We are now at $150K+ income and $0 debt.
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I am that guy that didnt want to be asked who he is, wears his clothes and buys his things unlike everyone else.
FTFY. Sometimes we mustachians forget we're not like everyone else. We're clearly the minority, but this forum connects us with like-minded people so well it starts to feel like we're the norm. We should be, but the numbers indicate otherwise. Keep on savin' that money, Money Saver 1!
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And yet many people will be slaves to their credit cards, slaves to their mortgages, and spend their entire lives enriching others in the hopes of “getting theirs”. Or, you can recognize, you can’t take these things with you, and work to grow wealth, care for your family, improve the climate in your community, reduce consumption, and improve the world you live in through donations and service. I know where I want to be.
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A real blast from the past! Only change for me is dropping two categories on the income scale. Which is kind of depressing, until I remember it's because I've been retired for nearly 4 years :)
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Necropost!! It would be interesting to see how many changes (or lack of changes) happened to people here in the 10 or so years since the OP. My situation is basicly the same but seems like other people went thru some big changes from their original plans.
It is interesting. Apparently, at the time of responding to this poll, we were at $100-$150K income with $100K+ debt (mortgage). We are now at $150K+ income and $0 debt.
Yipee! The working and saving years usually see a lot of changes where as the retirement years not as much (at least not much for me). Although having your total NW increase after you're retired for years (decade/s) instead of decrease (thanks stock and housing market!) without any real lifestyle changes is a pretty good no-changes thing.
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A real blast from the past! Only change for me is dropping two categories on the income scale. Which is kind of depressing, until I remember it's because I've been retired for nearly 4 years :)
Yeah my income dropped a lot once I quit my job to retire early but my spending went up. Not saving and investing any longer means I get to spend ALL my income on me me me!
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Necropost!! It would be interesting to see how many changes (or lack of changes) happened to people here in the 10 or so years since the OP. My situation is basicly the same but seems like other people went thru some big changes from their original plans.
It is interesting. Apparently, at the time of responding to this poll, we were at $100-$150K income with $100K+ debt (mortgage). We are now at $150K+ income and $0 debt.
Yipee! The working and saving years usually see a lot of changes where as the retirement years not as much (at least not much for me). Although having your total NW increase after you're retired for years (decade/s) instead of decrease (thanks stock and housing market!) without any real lifestyle changes is a pretty good no-changes thing.
My retirement income, adjusted for inflation, is higher than my main job but less than my last contract job. A lot of my savings are in DRIP accounts so I am not even maximizing my income. Plus that is gross income, and I am no longer contributing to EI or pensions, so the actual amount available for spending is more.
In retirement I am rich (by my standards). ;-)
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We moved from the 60-80K range to the 80-100K range, otherwise nothing else has changed.
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Well, last year I made a major location change to the Bay Area, which moved me up in current income. I decided I liked this place so I bought my most expensive housing ever, which means I have the most debt in the form of a mortgage than ever. But I’m basically somewhat “retired in place” with working another 3 years until I’m eligible for my early federal retirement pension (I get to retire with full benefits at 47). I’ve hit my FIRE investment numbers so now could spend all my salary on myself. (I’m still maxing retirement accounts and with the market dipping this year restarted some systematic outside investing since I seem to have FOMO of missing market returns).
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I've moved up an income category, sweet. The rest is the same.
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I loved seeing some of the old names. Hope they are doing great. Lots of big positive changes for us since then. The thread predates my MMM membership by several years. At that time we were debt free. We had good salaries and saving at a high rate. I don't think we'd quite reached 1M in total assets yet, but I was definitely considering retirement in Lean FIRE. Contrary to most here, participation in MMM is one of the reasons I chose Fat FIRE instead. I was then much more naive to the true costs of living. The smart people of MMM educated me in ways I'd never even considered. I'm truly a different person for having conversed here. Now 270 days from vacationing into retirement I'd like to thank you all.
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I also found the income and debt spreads quite interesting. It seems like those who appreciate the MMM way of life either have no debt or are drowning in it.
A home mortgage counts as debt. I have a $170K mortgage as my only debt. I got a 1.25% interest rate and it's not my forever home, so I'm in no hurry to pay it off. I wouldn't call that drowning in debt.
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Necropost!! It would be interesting to see how many changes (or lack of changes) happened to people here in the 10 or so years since the OP. My situation is basicly the same but seems like other people went thru some big changes from their original plans.
My debt went up. Lol. I went from being a renter with roommates to having a $170k mortgage. The poll doesn't actually show the whole picture since my half of the mortgage (spouse pays the other) is cheaper than my rent was. Less debt doesn't always mean you're in a better financial situation. This is FIRE, not Dave Ramsey.
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Little bit complicated for me. I have massive student debt but hopefully will have most of it forgiven.
Just another view on all of this.
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I put down $0 debt despite my $65K mortgage @ 2.625% because i could write a check tomorrow to pay that off. It is debt I choose to hang on to rather than a situation where I am low on assets and would be unable to.
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I put down $0 debt despite my $65K mortgage @ 2.625% because i could write a check tomorrow to pay that off. It is debt I choose to hang on to rather than a situation where I am low on assets and would be unable to.
Yeah, my mortgage is also something I choose to have. I could have bought the house outright, but with a practically zero interest loan, it's just not worth it IMO. I personally still think it counts as debt. I think the way people are categorizing debt is reflected in the division of mustachians having either really low or really high debt. I don't count my mortgage (or home equity) in my NW calculations. However, if someone asks me what debts I have, I'll include my mortgage in that.