Author Topic: Which Income Class Are You  (Read 19183 times)

Metalcat

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2022, 10:34:06 AM »
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

big_owl

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #151 on: November 20, 2022, 07:10:15 PM »
That calculator is sort of bunk.  We are 99.7% income and the best it could tell us was we're "upper".  Yeah, no shit. 

mizzourah2006

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #152 on: November 21, 2022, 07:29:04 AM »
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

I wonder to what extent this is colored by where you live. If that definition is what makes you upper class I've never known anyone that is upper class, because these aren't really behaviors or hobbies common in the midwest. I'm sure that's reasonably common in DC and NYC, but that list implies that the only people that are upper class are on the east coast.

Metalcat

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #153 on: November 21, 2022, 08:52:49 AM »
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

I wonder to what extent this is colored by where you live. If that definition is what makes you upper class I've never known anyone that is upper class, because these aren't really behaviors or hobbies common in the midwest. I'm sure that's reasonably common in DC and NYC, but that list implies that the only people that are upper class are on the east coast.

It varies according to tons of things, and is heavily influenced by what writers of tv and movies think is "high class."

StarBright

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #154 on: November 21, 2022, 09:26:22 AM »
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

I wonder to what extent this is colored by where you live. If that definition is what makes you upper class I've never known anyone that is upper class, because these aren't really behaviors or hobbies common in the midwest. I'm sure that's reasonably common in DC and NYC, but that list implies that the only people that are upper class are on the east coast.

Isn't this why "The Great Sorting" happened in the 90s and aughts? I grew up in the midwest - hate watching sports, can't stand lake culture, barely tolerate camping. I like museums and the opera and the ballet. I moved to the east coast as soon as I was 18.

I think "Class" and "Culture" are inextricably linked in the United States - probably because traditional cultural institutions (coded upper class) don't exist without major money underwriting them (which you couldn't do if you didn't have the big bucks).

In the US there was a movement in the 50s- early 80s to disentangle culture from the east coast elites and make it more of a public good. But by the 80s there was a strong counter movement that said we don't want our tax dollars supporting culture, and so the cycle continues. Upper class culture is "upper class" because it is funded by donations from the ultra rich.

Donating money for culture (non profit) is really different than buying a product (boat, truck, season of football tickets) and therein lies the difference.

FWIW - There are midwestern towns with decent culture, but those areas also had or have real concentrations of wealth (Omaha, Detroit, and Chicago (which is its own wonderful animal, and reads as neither East Coast or Midwestern.)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 09:30:41 AM by StarBright »

Chris Pascale

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #155 on: November 21, 2022, 11:03:01 AM »
Household this year will be about $200-250k gross, depending on teaching assignments. On LI, it means we can live pretty well if we're smart with what we take in.

Some rich-people-stuff I do: Volunteer on a charitable board, do independent research for which the potential for making any money is very remote; wife and I are thinking of which potential 2024 candidates we'd volunteer to help if they run.

I've thus far cash flowed daughters 1 and 2 through (local, public) university.

Having one vehicle for both of us by choice is a rich-person thing, IMO.

Spiffy

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #156 on: November 21, 2022, 12:11:14 PM »

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isnít referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Anglican/Episcopalian churches in America use port for communion wine because, once opened, the bottle last much longer. Source: me, an altar guild member.

Edubb20

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #157 on: November 21, 2022, 12:38:52 PM »
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.


joe189man

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #158 on: November 21, 2022, 01:27:19 PM »
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.

we are 40-44
Income at 97th
https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/

Net Worth at 87th with no home equity (for age group)
Net Worth at 88th with home Equity (for age group)
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-united-states/

Net Worth at 84th with no home equity (not counting age)
Net worth at 85th with home equity (not counting age)
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/

Using the link above:
Average Net Worth (50th percentile) not counting home equity in the USA is $39k
A net worth of ~$1 million (not counting home equity) puts you in the top 9% of households

spartana

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #159 on: November 21, 2022, 03:47:55 PM »
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.
Amongst the already FIREd crowd I'm sure it would be fairly common to see high net worth and a low income - even poverty level (taxable) income - who appear to live a middle class livestyle.  Not sure how that work work when modelling an income class.

mspym

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #160 on: November 21, 2022, 05:23:36 PM »

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isnít referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Anglican/Episcopalian churches in America use port for communion wine because, once opened, the bottle last much longer. Source: me, an altar guild member.
Also a factor! You can buy it in bulk without fair the bottle will go rank.

GilesMM

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #161 on: November 21, 2022, 07:36:36 PM »

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isnít referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Anglican/Episcopalian churches in America use port for communion wine because, once opened, the bottle last much longer. Source: me, an altar guild member.
Also a factor! You can buy it in bulk without fair the bottle will go rank.

I always thought the altar minions polished off the last of the wine immediately after the service, as a matter of duty.

mspym

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #162 on: November 21, 2022, 07:40:51 PM »

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isnít referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Anglican/Episcopalian churches in America use port for communion wine because, once opened, the bottle last much longer. Source: me, an altar guild member.
Also a factor! You can buy it in bulk without fair the bottle will go rank.

I always thought the altar minions polished off the last of the wine immediately after the service, as a matter of duty.
Minister polishes off anything that is left in the communion cup because, well, it's been sanctified and you can't just leave the blood of Christ around for any old bozo. The port that hasn't been sanctified sits in the stash for next service, assuming that Father Ted and friends don't come for a visit, and needs to still be good.

LightStache

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #163 on: November 22, 2022, 08:48:36 AM »
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.
Amongst the already FIREd crowd I'm sure it would be fairly common to see high net worth and a low income - even poverty level (taxable) income - who appear to live a middle class livestyle. Not sure how that work work when modelling an income class.

Right, a lot of countries' tax policies provide favorable treatment to income from capital so researchers have to make adjustments if using tax data to examine wealth.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #164 on: November 22, 2022, 09:19:27 AM »
Regarding the "new aristocracy"... it takes two distinct forms:

1. There are places, often rural or small-town, often in the South (but not exclusively), where you really don't want to cross certain people. It's a combination of wealth, highly local political power, and means of applying state-sanctioned violence that create something similar to medieval aristocracy. They are mostly fine with not being very culturally influential, as long as they maintain control of their fiefdoms.

2. There are also places, often but not always in the Northeast, where old money sees their political power somewhat diminished, and wealth overshadowed by new money - but their cultural pull is such that they still can see themselves as above others. This is more akin to the later stage aristocracy - even to their modern aristocratic counterparts in Europe.

spartana

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #165 on: November 22, 2022, 10:25:33 AM »
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.
Amongst the already FIREd crowd I'm sure it would be fairly common to see high net worth and a low income - even poverty level (taxable) income - who appear to live a middle class livestyle. Not sure how that work work when modelling an income class.

Right, a lot of countries' tax policies provide favorable treatment to income from capital so researchers have to make adjustments if using tax data to examine wealth.
I wonder how they would do that? Since (in the USA at least) income class is all about income rather than social activities or spending I guess the only way would be ask about total NW and total spending. If total NW is $2mm and total annual spending is $15k (to use an example from @CurledMoss in another thread) are you in a wealth class or a poverty class? Maybe FIREees need their own income class ;-).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 10:28:59 AM by spartana »

LightStache

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #166 on: November 22, 2022, 11:22:57 AM »
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.
Amongst the already FIREd crowd I'm sure it would be fairly common to see high net worth and a low income - even poverty level (taxable) income - who appear to live a middle class livestyle. Not sure how that work work when modelling an income class.

Right, a lot of countries' tax policies provide favorable treatment to income from capital so researchers have to make adjustments if using tax data to examine wealth.
I wonder how they would do that? Since (in the USA at least) income class is all about income rather than social activities or spending I guess the only way would be ask about total NW and total spending. If total NW is $2mm and total annual spending is $15k (to use an example from @CurledMoss in another thread) are you in a wealth class or a poverty class? Maybe FIREees need their own income class ;-).

They use other sources of data like the census or surveys and just rely on that alone or use it to produce an adjustment to a broader data set.

Income is independent from expenses. If total NW is $2mm, invested Mustachian style, that likely generates an average income, capital gains and dividends, of $160K/yr. Whether the owner realizes any capital gains/losses, takes distributions from retirement accounts, etc. is only an artifact of tax policy and doesn't reflect true income as it relates to wealth.

It's not just FIREees. Wealthy people who are also high spenders can maintain a very low taxable income. You just need to own the company and/or be the beneficiary of a trust, not earn income as a non-owner employee.

Villanelle

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #167 on: November 22, 2022, 11:31:49 AM »
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.
Amongst the already FIREd crowd I'm sure it would be fairly common to see high net worth and a low income - even poverty level (taxable) income - who appear to live a middle class livestyle. Not sure how that work work when modelling an income class.

Right, a lot of countries' tax policies provide favorable treatment to income from capital so researchers have to make adjustments if using tax data to examine wealth.
I wonder how they would do that? Since (in the USA at least) income class is all about income rather than social activities or spending I guess the only way would be ask about total NW and total spending. If total NW is $2mm and total annual spending is $15k (to use an example from @CurledMoss in another thread) are you in a wealth class or a poverty class? Maybe FIREees need their own income class ;-).

This is why I think net worth is much more relevant than just about anything else.  If Scrooge McDuck has zero income but a swimming pool full of gold coins, he can live as extravagantly (or not) as someone with an income of several million per year.  (Dear Uncle Scrooge is missing out on interest or other growth from all those doubloons and maravedis, of course.)  Now, if he only spends $20k, he's living roughly the same lifestyle as someone with less net worth, but even then I'd argue that his experience is different than someone with almost no net worth, making $20k and spending $20k, because that person has no security and no clear path out of that cycle.

 Even looking at income tells you very little.  If someone makes $250y/yr but pays $200k just servicing debt, they are far worse off than someone debt-free and making $125k. 

So I'm not even sure why "income class" is a category for much of anything because I don't think it has much relevance. 

I don't think any snapshot category is going to accurately reflect all possibilities and differences, but to me net worth comes as close as possible, with just one simple metric, to giving you a picture of someone's situation.  Even if you take 2 people with a #3m net worth and have one that spends $20k and another who spends $500k, you still have a clear understand of what each of them *could* spend, and of the safety and longevity of their stockpile. 

BicycleB

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #168 on: November 22, 2022, 04:45:53 PM »
I'm not even sure why "income class" is a category for much of anything because I don't think it has much relevance. 

I don't think any snapshot category is going to accurately reflect all possibilities and differences, but to me net worth comes as close as possible, with just one simple metric, to giving you a picture of someone's situation.  Even if you take 2 people with a #3m net worth and have one that spends $20k and another who spends $500k, you still have a clear understand of what each of them *could* spend, and of the safety and longevity of their stockpile.

"Income class" doesn't have much relevance for people with high net worth, because in most cases their net worth determines the bulk of their spending capacity. It has a lot of relevance for people without high net worth, because in most cases income does determine their spending capacity.

Most people do not have high net worth. Therefore income is the most relevant category for the majority of the population.

spartana

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #169 on: November 22, 2022, 07:16:10 PM »
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.
Amongst the already FIREd crowd I'm sure it would be fairly common to see high net worth and a low income - even poverty level (taxable) income - who appear to live a middle class livestyle. Not sure how that work work when modelling an income class.

Right, a lot of countries' tax policies provide favorable treatment to income from capital so researchers have to make adjustments if using tax data to examine wealth.
I wonder how they would do that? Since (in the USA at least) income class is all about income rather than social activities or spending I guess the only way would be ask about total NW and total spending. If total NW is $2mm and total annual spending is $15k (to use an example from @CurledMoss in another thread) are you in a wealth class or a poverty class? Maybe FIREees need their own income class ;-).

This is why I think net worth is much more relevant than just about anything else.  If Scrooge McDuck has zero income but a swimming pool full of gold coins, he can live as extravagantly (or not) as someone with an income of several million per year.  (Dear Uncle Scrooge is missing out on interest or other growth from all those doubloons and maravedis, of course.)  Now, if he only spends $20k, he's living roughly the same lifestyle as someone with less net worth, but even then I'd argue that his experience is different than someone with almost no net worth, making $20k and spending $20k, because that person has no security and no clear path out of that cycle.

 Even looking at income tells you very little.  If someone makes $250y/yr but pays $200k just servicing debt, they are far worse off than someone debt-free and making $125k. 

So I'm not even sure why "income class" is a category for much of anything because I don't think it has much relevance. 

I don't think any snapshot category is going to accurately reflect all possibilities and differences, but to me net worth comes as close as possible, with just one simple metric, to giving you a picture of someone's situation.  Even if you take 2 people with a #3m net worth and have one that spends $20k and another who spends $500k, you still have a clear understand of what each of them *could* spend, and of the safety and longevity of their stockpile.
So true. NW (whether positive or negative) is "Generally" going to determine your spending options and whether or not you can spend a little or a lot (assuming not using credit to inflate your lifestyle).

Higher NW people with low discretionary spending like a lot of Fired people probably spent a lot while working on things like paying down debt and paying off a mortgage as well as investing. So once FIRE they can spend very little. The truelly low income low NW pay check to pay check person doesn't have those options without making some pretty big sacrifices.

Knowing you have the pool filled with $2mm worth of gold coins (or maybe that much in a Roth IRA),  pay no taxes,  and have very low expenses isn't the same as living on a low income with no savings. Or worse... being deep in debt with a low income and no savings ...ya know, the american way of appearing middle or upper income class  ;-).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 07:21:59 PM by spartana »

davisgang90

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #170 on: November 23, 2022, 04:44:27 AM »
I'm firmly middle class based on income from pension and VA disability. Not touching investments for now.

Considering my investments and looking at guaranteed pension income as an investment, I'm in the 87th percentile for wealth at my age (54).

bryan995

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #171 on: November 23, 2022, 08:55:47 AM »
That calculator is sort of bunk.  We are 99.7% income and the best it could tell us was we're "upper".  Yeah, no shit.

Dang, that's what ... >1.6M ish?

JLee

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #172 on: November 23, 2022, 09:10:14 AM »
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Yeah this is a really weird list.  A new high spec F150 is shockingly close to $100k and ski boats can run double that.

Sanitary Engineer

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #173 on: November 23, 2022, 11:43:37 AM »
I am expecting to bump up into the middle income classification for 2023.  So far that means an increase in out of pocket expenses due to falling off off of the benefits cliff with respect to food and health insurance subsidy and resisting the urge to spend all the additional money on projects.

The urge to spend is complicated by tax subsidies that want me to spend on electrification and offer 30% off.  It's like a 30% off sale.  I am not sure if I can resist because not paying tax seems like a whole other addition benefit, in addition to the sale price.

big_owl

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #174 on: November 23, 2022, 02:21:28 PM »
That calculator is sort of bunk.  We are 99.7% income and the best it could tell us was we're "upper".  Yeah, no shit.

Dang, that's what ... >1.6M ish?

More than that

coppertop

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #175 on: November 24, 2022, 08:29:29 AM »
Oh boy. The only thing Iím going to add to this is that these things are not as ďeasyĒ or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I donít get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone ďonlyĒ needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You donít get to look down on those who arenít at the same level of success and say they didnít try hard enough, etc. being poor isnít a moral failing and being middle or upper class isnít a virtue.

Thank you for this.  Many of us worked damn hard, but there were other circumstances that prevented us from earning higher wages or being promoted.  It is the height of arrogance to suggest that higher wage earners just got there by working harder than others. 

mistymoney

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #176 on: November 24, 2022, 12:30:31 PM »
Oh boy. The only thing Iím going to add to this is that these things are not as ďeasyĒ or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I donít get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone ďonlyĒ needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You donít get to look down on those who arenít at the same level of success and say they didnít try hard enough, etc. being poor isnít a moral failing and being middle or upper class isnít a virtue.

Thank you for this.  Many of us worked damn hard, but there were other circumstances that prevented us from earning higher wages or being promoted.  It is the height of arrogance to suggest that higher wage earners just got there by working harder than others.

I've actually been thinking retrospecitively about my career for several months now, about the exceptionally hard work, long hours, and talent I brought to the table at several companies where it was not rewarded hardly at all. In some cases I did find out at some point I was paid a lot less than coworkers while actually doing more. I did move around but it was the same shit show everywhere, and it was an employers market and getting new jobs was not easy.

I did eventually move up and make ok money, but I was already into my 50's, so just a few years to tie up my financial loose ends and save as much as I can as I ready for FIRE (or just maybe FIR depending on the market over the next year -2 - 3, and when I pull the plug. Will be sad if I'm still working at 60!).

I'm actually witnessing something at work right now that is infuriating. There are two young men that I have worked with, and have been their direct and indirect supervisor at various times over the past few years.

One is talented, creative, and hard working, and the other is lazy and sloppy, only performing when senior leadership is watching, and constantly pushing for more money and promotions.

So lazy and pushy is climbing up and hard working and talented is not. Lazy went out of my chain of command, although when he was getting that first promotion I did mention to the supervisor hiring him on that he needs some direction and oversight, I was diplomatic as that decision was already made and I certainly didn't want to poison the well, and who knew - maybe he'd step up once in a position he wanted or was more suitabel for? I'm not in the loop but seems he is working at the same, but puts it on whenever senior leadership is around.

But meanwhile, I've been pushing for the talented guy, but it took me 2 years to get him one promotion while lazy had gotten 2 within that time. I am working closely with talented's manager to lay the groundwork for another promotion, but it is going to hard work for us.

You have to ask why? I'd put it down to arrogance and confidence. Not talent and hardwork. I'm sure pushy will go far in life without ever working hard or bringing in fresh ideas.

I'm trying to make sure talented goes as far as I can push through. But so much is out of my hands, and so much unrelated to doing good work.

index

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #177 on: November 24, 2022, 02:43:38 PM »
Oh boy. The only thing Iím going to add to this is that these things are not as ďeasyĒ or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I donít get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone ďonlyĒ needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You donít get to look down on those who arenít at the same level of success and say they didnít try hard enough, etc. being poor isnít a moral failing and being middle or upper class isnít a virtue.

Thank you for this.  Many of us worked damn hard, but there were other circumstances that prevented us from earning higher wages or being promoted.  It is the height of arrogance to suggest that higher wage earners just got there by working harder than others.

I've actually been thinking retrospecitively about my career for several months now, about the exceptionally hard work, long hours, and talent I brought to the table at several companies where it was not rewarded hardly at all. In some cases I did find out at some point I was paid a lot less than coworkers while actually doing more. I did move around but it was the same shit show everywhere, and it was an employers market and getting new jobs was not easy.

I did eventually move up and make ok money, but I was already into my 50's, so just a few years to tie up my financial loose ends and save as much as I can as I ready for FIRE (or just maybe FIR depending on the market over the next year -2 - 3, and when I pull the plug. Will be sad if I'm still working at 60!).

I'm actually witnessing something at work right now that is infuriating. There are two young men that I have worked with, and have been their direct and indirect supervisor at various times over the past few years.

One is talented, creative, and hard working, and the other is lazy and sloppy, only performing when senior leadership is watching, and constantly pushing for more money and promotions.

So lazy and pushy is climbing up and hard working and talented is not. Lazy went out of my chain of command, although when he was getting that first promotion I did mention to the supervisor hiring him on that he needs some direction and oversight, I was diplomatic as that decision was already made and I certainly didn't want to poison the well, and who knew - maybe he'd step up once in a position he wanted or was more suitabel for? I'm not in the loop but seems he is working at the same, but puts it on whenever senior leadership is around.

But meanwhile, I've been pushing for the talented guy, but it took me 2 years to get him one promotion while lazy had gotten 2 within that time. I am working closely with talented's manager to lay the groundwork for another promotion, but it is going to hard work for us.

You have to ask why? I'd put it down to arrogance and confidence. Not talent and hardwork. I'm sure pushy will go far in life without ever working hard or bringing in fresh ideas.

I'm trying to make sure talented goes as far as I can push through. But so much is out of my hands, and so much unrelated to doing good work.

You have to play the game right. Lazy works harder at what matters to get ahead than talented. Puting an hour of thought and having insight during a large meeting pays 10x the rate of 1hr of good hard technical work. If you want to make more money, figure out how to be a force multiplier and get others to do the work. @coppertop is exactly right. High earners didn't necessarily work harder. They worked smarter and probably had a bit of luck to get where they are. It sucks, but producing work product is the bottom rung of an organization and pay hierarchy.

mistymoney

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #178 on: November 24, 2022, 08:36:25 PM »
Oh boy. The only thing Iím going to add to this is that these things are not as ďeasyĒ or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I donít get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone ďonlyĒ needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You donít get to look down on those who arenít at the same level of success and say they didnít try hard enough, etc. being poor isnít a moral failing and being middle or upper class isnít a virtue.

Thank you for this.  Many of us worked damn hard, but there were other circumstances that prevented us from earning higher wages or being promoted.  It is the height of arrogance to suggest that higher wage earners just got there by working harder than others.

I've actually been thinking retrospecitively about my career for several months now, about the exceptionally hard work, long hours, and talent I brought to the table at several companies where it was not rewarded hardly at all. In some cases I did find out at some point I was paid a lot less than coworkers while actually doing more. I did move around but it was the same shit show everywhere, and it was an employers market and getting new jobs was not easy.

I did eventually move up and make ok money, but I was already into my 50's, so just a few years to tie up my financial loose ends and save as much as I can as I ready for FIRE (or just maybe FIR depending on the market over the next year -2 - 3, and when I pull the plug. Will be sad if I'm still working at 60!).

I'm actually witnessing something at work right now that is infuriating. There are two young men that I have worked with, and have been their direct and indirect supervisor at various times over the past few years.

One is talented, creative, and hard working, and the other is lazy and sloppy, only performing when senior leadership is watching, and constantly pushing for more money and promotions.

So lazy and pushy is climbing up and hard working and talented is not. Lazy went out of my chain of command, although when he was getting that first promotion I did mention to the supervisor hiring him on that he needs some direction and oversight, I was diplomatic as that decision was already made and I certainly didn't want to poison the well, and who knew - maybe he'd step up once in a position he wanted or was more suitabel for? I'm not in the loop but seems he is working at the same, but puts it on whenever senior leadership is around.

But meanwhile, I've been pushing for the talented guy, but it took me 2 years to get him one promotion while lazy had gotten 2 within that time. I am working closely with talented's manager to lay the groundwork for another promotion, but it is going to hard work for us.

You have to ask why? I'd put it down to arrogance and confidence. Not talent and hardwork. I'm sure pushy will go far in life without ever working hard or bringing in fresh ideas.

I'm trying to make sure talented goes as far as I can push through. But so much is out of my hands, and so much unrelated to doing good work.

You have to play the game right. Lazy works harder at what matters to get ahead than talented. Puting an hour of thought and having insight during a large meeting pays 10x the rate of 1hr of good hard technical work. If you want to make more money, figure out how to be a force multiplier and get others to do the work. @coppertop is exactly right. High earners didn't necessarily work harder. They worked smarter and probably had a bit of luck to get where they are. It sucks, but producing work product is the bottom rung of an organization and pay hierarchy.

I certainly agree, and if lazy was shopping his own ideas in front of senior leadership, that would be great. But - it is usually someone else's.

Kind of reminds me of the old movie all about eve.

caleb

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #179 on: November 26, 2022, 02:00:05 PM »
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

My wife sometimes says the neighborhood she grew up with was ďconstruction money,Ē i.e. new money, no taste.

Class isnít a matter of money. Itís how you make your money, and what you do with your time and money.

The WWC understands perfectly well what class is and how it works, they just donít like it.

Metalcat

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #180 on: November 26, 2022, 02:18:49 PM »
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

My wife sometimes says the neighborhood she grew up with was ďconstruction money,Ē i.e. new money, no taste.

Class isnít a matter of money. Itís how you make your money, and what you do with your time and money.

The WWC understands perfectly well what class is and how it works, they just donít like it.

My experience of living amongst people of various backgrounds and various levels of wealth ranging from working with homeless people to socializing with billionaires is that everyone seems to think they "know" what dictates "class" but almost no one is actually in agreement about it.

caleb

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #181 on: November 26, 2022, 02:42:00 PM »
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

My wife sometimes says the neighborhood she grew up with was ďconstruction money,Ē i.e. new money, no taste.

Class isnít a matter of money. Itís how you make your money, and what you do with your time and money.

The WWC understands perfectly well what class is and how it works, they just donít like it.

My experience of living amongst people of various backgrounds and various levels of wealth ranging from working with homeless people to socializing with billionaires is that everyone seems to think they "know" what dictates "class" but almost no one is actually in agreement about it.

Itís not exactly a conversation I regularly have with strangers, so Iím going to need to defer to your crossectional assessment.

However, at least in the US, I suspect if you offered people a set of occupations and hobbies and asked them to code them by class youíd get a fair bit of agreement. If you asked a group whether itís higher class to make a million dollars as a surgeon or as the owner of a corner liquor store, I doubt many are going to say itís the liquor store owner whoís higher class.

The past 6-8 years of American politics have gone a long way to cement class perceptions and boundaries in American minds.

Metalcat

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Re: Which Income Class Are You
« Reply #182 on: November 27, 2022, 07:24:50 AM »
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

My wife sometimes says the neighborhood she grew up with was ďconstruction money,Ē i.e. new money, no taste.

Class isnít a matter of money. Itís how you make your money, and what you do with your time and money.

The WWC understands perfectly well what class is and how it works, they just donít like it.

My experience of living amongst people of various backgrounds and various levels of wealth ranging from working with homeless people to socializing with billionaires is that everyone seems to think they "know" what dictates "class" but almost no one is actually in agreement about it.

Itís not exactly a conversation I regularly have with strangers, so Iím going to need to defer to your crossectional assessment.

However, at least in the US, I suspect if you offered people a set of occupations and hobbies and asked them to code them by class youíd get a fair bit of agreement. If you asked a group whether itís higher class to make a million dollars as a surgeon or as the owner of a corner liquor store, I doubt many are going to say itís the liquor store owner whoís higher class.

The past 6-8 years of American politics have gone a long way to cement class perceptions and boundaries in American minds.

In broad strokes, sure, there are broad class themes, but they break down pretty quickly under closer examination and actual lived experience.

And literally everything to do with "new money" and "old money" class nonsense dates back to the aristocrats.

Which is HILARIOUS since the famous "old money" families in the US today were ALL white trash new money back in the day.

And once you see inside the world of the ultra wealthy "upper class" you see that virtually all concepts of "class" are nonsense circular logic anchored to nothing real.

No matter how much you have, no matter who your family is, no matter what cultural signifiers you engage in, someone will always find a way to define you as "not actually high class" for some reason or another.

And the things that most Americans would agree upon are the old aristocratic class signifiers, which are based on a system that literally doesn't exist anymore, and are therefore meaningless and on exact contradiction of many of our celebrated class features today.

The old status signifiers were all about demonstrating a *lack* of industriousness. Aristocrats specially engaged extensively in activities that signaled that they weren't spending their time making money. Hence why certain leisure activities are seen as "high class."

But they were the ones with the money, and now that earning money is also status, the markers of class and wealth go in direct conflict with one another.

Is someone high class because they are brilliant and made a ton of money being brilliant and getting heavily into philanthropy? Is someone high class because they are the descendant of generational wealth, have never had a job in their life, spend all of their time playing rich-kid sports, and are best known for never being prosecuted for all of the servants they rape?

Trust me, every rich person I know thinks that most of the other rich people are total trash. There's only generally agreement about what constitutes class by people who see themselves as beneath that class or above it. Within each class range, there's shocking levels of disagreement about class. Hence why everyone in the broad "middle class" has the same level of disagreement.

It's all a bunch of self-conflicting, fucked up nonsense that completely crumbles under any critical examination.