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General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Sanitary Stache on February 11, 2022, 02:19:25 PM

Title: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Sanitary Stache on February 11, 2022, 02:19:25 PM
There was some excellent discussions on a post today that referenced the decline of the middle class.  I was inspired to get a sense of what the middle class actually is and if I was part of it.

Turns out, I am not.

I read this article (most of it) https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income-class-are-you.aspx  I thought it read like an extremely well done high school essay.  I would definitely hire this high school student - they obviously write much better than I do.  But I also liked how all their references were the tabs that I had open already from my initial search of "how to define the middle class".  This made me think that, with enough effort, I too could write such a well organized article.

I followed on of the links to this calculator (I love online calculators) from PEW https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/  (I wouldn't be surprised if the Investopedia article is used as a writing sample for a job application to PEW.)

I found that my household is in the Lower economic class, short by about $10,000 of yearly income.  Though, I could probably adjust this based on some of the non-monetary factors the Investopedia article talks about, like cultural and social capital. Well, social capital anyway. But I suspect I would never get away from the fact that my family of 5 doesn't bring in quite enough income to call ourselves part of the middle economic class.

This is interesting to me.

Somewhat less interesting to me, but also thought provoking, is the theme of the final half of the Investopedia article (none of the references in this section were anything I had already read).  The idea here, I think, is trying to reframe the evil rich bastards in society as everyone in the top 80% of incomes, rather than the more commonly hated 1%.  I am on board, not with the hate, but with questioning where the middle economic class ends and what the responsibility of those in the higher class is to stop fucking over the rest of us.

Similar to taxes, I expect my opinion on this topic would be different if I was in the higher economic class rather than the lower one.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Omy on February 11, 2022, 02:29:59 PM
I'm fat FIREd...with income in the lower class range.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mizzourah2006 on February 11, 2022, 02:42:40 PM
Looks like it's based on # in your HH and where you live.

Looks like we are in the upper for our area, but just 5 years ago we were in the middle and 10 years ago we were in the lower, lol. So, we've been in all 3 in 10 years.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: HPstache on February 11, 2022, 02:48:58 PM
According to the calculator I am in the middle tier along with 58% in the Bellingham Metropolitan area.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: joe189man on February 11, 2022, 03:49:51 PM
Interesting link to the Pew Research stuff - we are upper class there

https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/

above is another i have seen float around with different results, i think the pew one, having a tilt to your geographic area, may be better as you can see how you compare to others in your city/area
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: SwordGuy on February 11, 2022, 04:21:30 PM
The Pew study is fundamentally flawed because it focuses on income and not wealth.   That's a common misunderstanding, by the way, and much to the advantage of the wealthy.

According to the Pew study, we're middle class for our area.

Nationally, based on the 2019 data used at https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/ (https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/), we're in the top 4% of American households based on wealth.  Our net worth is almost 9 times that of the wealth the 75th percentile has.  That's a far cry from "middle class". 

Our income falls into upper middle class levels because that's what we choose it to be.   

We own our home, four rental homes, two newish cars, half of one farm, a third of another farm, half of a trucking company startup -- all free and clear -- and $1.6M in cash, stocks and bonds.    We have fully equipped woodshop, pottery studio, jewelry studio, and 3D printing studio.  We have a huge library on a host of topics that interest us.    Pretty much anything we want we either already have or get when we want it.   We live in a custom, architect-designed home with custom grounds. 

And because we have no debt we live a much fancier lifestyle than others at the same income level.

Much as I "feel" middle class, we're not middle class anymore.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: bmjohnson35 on February 11, 2022, 04:43:06 PM
We are presently in the lower income tier.  Income is one measurement, but far from the whole picture.  Even if you don't have a high net worth, being debt free vs. highly in debt makes a HUGE difference when it comes to utilizing the same amount of income.   
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: wageslave23 on February 11, 2022, 04:48:46 PM
This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: SunnyDays on February 11, 2022, 04:57:00 PM
I'm in Canada, so I looked at the closed US states.  When I was working, I was middle income.  Now that I'm retired, I'm lower income.  But my net worth is higher now than before.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: use2betrix on February 11, 2022, 05:49:10 PM
I’m considered upper class (29%) in one of the largest US cities. Married, single income, infant child.

I dunno, something I already knew. Considering my age (33) and net worth (over $1MM) i’m well off.

That aside, while my income (around $350K) and net worth are impressive, the sacrifices made to get here and stress/hrs of my job on a regular basis are very, very taxing…
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Sanitary Stache on February 11, 2022, 06:01:42 PM
I was talking to DW about this tonight.

We felt a sense of pride that our income put us in the lower class tier. But out net worth is in the 69th percentile in the calculator Sword Guy linked. Which i can’t tell if that is middle or upper because I didn’t read enough of that page to understand where the tiers change. I’ll think middle.

 that calculator only looks at age and not at family size or location. I suppose we would be even higher in the percentiles of net worth if the number of children and location were considered in the net worth comparison, but I could be surprised. .

I’d love to see a calculation that incorporates net worth and income and location. .

Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mr.mac on February 11, 2022, 06:31:06 PM
Based on the Pew calculator, I'd be in the upper income of a very large metro area.  Graduate school has already paid itself off.

However, income is only one piece of the picture, working to build up the others.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mizzourah2006 on February 11, 2022, 07:55:49 PM
Does that NW calculator not count equity in your home? I just can't believe we're in the top 2.5% for our age group (35-40) at 36 & 38. One of us never got a college degree and the other didn't get a job until 29, after finishing their PhD in psychology.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Morning Glory on February 11, 2022, 07:59:41 PM
Based on the Pew calculator, I'd be in the upper income of a very large metro area.  Graduate school has already paid itself off.

However, income is only one piece of the picture, working to build up the others.

Lol graduate school.  Luckily work paid for mine, because I only got a 1.05/hr raise for finishing. Glad it worked out a little better for you.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: SwordGuy on February 11, 2022, 08:18:44 PM
Does that NW calculator not count equity in your home? I just can't believe we're in the top 2.5% for our age group (35-40) at 36 & 38.
It's a net worth calculator, so it does count home equity.   But a lot of people don't have any home equity or very much of it. If you start with 2.5% to 5% down, there's not a lot of equity unless the value goes up a lot.
Here's the instructions they give for the NW calculation:  https://personalfinancedata.com/how-to-calculate-your-net-worth/
 (https://personalfinancedata.com/how-to-calculate-your-net-worth/)

One of us never got a college degree and the other didn't get a job until 29, after finishing their PhD in psychology.

Here's the 2019 data for American households on that site:

Median Net Worth : $121,760
Mean Net Worth : $746,392
Net Worth 25th Percentile: $12,410
Net Worth 75th Percentile : $404,100

That 25th percentile number is amazingly low.  But look at this:

Net Worth $0 Percentile : 10.8

That means the homeless wino living under the overpass, who owes nothing to nobody and doesn't own anything but the clothes they're wearing, has a higher net worth than 10.8% of the households in the USA.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: MudPuppy on February 11, 2022, 08:23:11 PM
There’s a hell of a lot more to this than hard work and frankly I take exception to anyone who says otherwise.

Income is one thing, but the actual wealth picture is more telling. Not that we aren’t all tired of this reference, but ffs the BOOTS.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 11, 2022, 08:51:46 PM
I knew when I was 23 I was going to be middle upper to upper class eventually.  I was right.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: ixtap on February 11, 2022, 09:32:35 PM
I knew when I was 23 I was going to be middle upper to upper class eventually.  I was right.

Upper middle wasn't even on my radar until after I was already there. That's what happens when you marry up, but they agree to live in the place you could afford without them.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Jack0Life on February 11, 2022, 09:52:16 PM
Plugged in numbers in my area.
- 2 years ago when I was making $120k. As a couple we are upper level along with 15% of the metro area.
- Right now at $60k I'm still middle class. As a couple we don't fall to "lower" class under we hit under $40k.
- As pertain to my group(Asian 45-64), I belong to the majority with 52%. Meaning most Asians in my age group are doing just as well. LOL.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: jnw on February 12, 2022, 03:47:44 AM
I guess I am in the very low income class :)  But I'd wager I am more content and happier than most in the "upper class", who aren't FI.   I don't need expensive things to make me feel happy and don't have to worry about impressing people or what others think.

I say those who are FI are in the "upper class" and those who aren't are in the "lower class".
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mboley on February 12, 2022, 02:27:38 PM
This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.
Easy? A little effort? You mean there are enough good paying jobs for everyone who works hard?  Opportunities are the exact same for everyone? Who knew!

If it were easy  tens of millions more people would be better off. Your comments make you sound pretty naive. Just saying, dont take offense.

Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: use2betrix on February 12, 2022, 04:45:44 PM
There’s a hell of a lot more to this than hard work and frankly I take exception to anyone who says otherwise.

Income is one thing, but the actual wealth picture is more telling. Not that we aren’t all tired of this reference, but ffs the BOOTS.

This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.
Easy? A little effort? You mean there are enough good paying jobs for everyone who works hard?  Opportunities are the exact same for everyone? Who knew!

If it were easy  tens of millions more people would be better off. Your comments make you sound pretty naive. Just saying, dont take offense.

Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk

Hard work, sacrifice, and risk that most aren’t willing to take. I’m 33 and near the top 1% both income and net worth for my age. I graduated high school with a 2.7, got a 20 on my ACT, and got an associates degree at around 22/23. I’m no genius and I grew up lower middle class

I’ve lived in 8 states the last decade, and moved 20+ times or so. I’ve worked 50-70 hr weeks my whole career as a contractor, constantly moving states and up in my industry. I’ve sacrificed friendships, owning a home, etc.

If someone ask *me* how to be successful, the first thing I’d say is work out 5-7x/wk for an hr a day, get your diet in check, quit any bad habits, work 60+ hr weeks, every week, all year (maybe 2 weeks vacation, depending on the year) and be prepared to move cross country in short notice for better opportunities. Spend your commutes listening to several audiobooks a month on how to improve your weaknesses - as a leader, a speaker, a manager, managing stress, building good habits, etc.

Do that for 10-15 years.

The workouts, diet, habits, willingness to move, and work schedule are just the bare minimum. Those are my keys to a high income.

Is there more? Of course, but until you’ve actually done everything I’ve prescribed above, no one is going to convince me that hard work and sacrifice isn’t a HUGE part of it for some. Many will say they can’t or don’t want to do those things, which is fine, just don’t complain that someone has a higher income because for some (myself) that is what it takes.

Insinuating that its not very hard work (again, for myself) can be somewhat insulting..
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: JoePublic3.14 on February 12, 2022, 06:36:27 PM
There’s a hell of a lot more to this than hard work and frankly I take exception to anyone who says otherwise.

Income is one thing, but the actual wealth picture is more telling. Not that we aren’t all tired of this reference, but ffs the BOOTS.

This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.
Easy? A little effort? You mean there are enough good paying jobs for everyone who works hard?  Opportunities are the exact same for everyone? Who knew!

If it were easy  tens of millions more people would be better off. Your comments make you sound pretty naive. Just saying, dont take offense.

Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk

Hard work, sacrifice, and risk that most aren’t willing to take.

I might phrase it as hard, smart work. If someone is willing to understand what they need to do, then work hard in that direction, it would take some sort of bad break to prevent them from achieving some level of success, in my opinion. But I’ve seen so often people just not willing to understand what they need to do to get where they want. Or, not willing to put in the work to get there. And even worse to me, refuse to be accountable for it. I take exception to people who take a woe-is-me posture just because they 'overspent on a new car' ‘didn’t study for the exam' and so on.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: onecoolcat on February 12, 2022, 07:52:49 PM
Upper but it certainly does not feel like it because I am priced out 3/2 homes in good school zones in my area.  96.1 percentile on wealth at my age per Swordguy's link.  Either people are buying WAAAAY to much house or I am too stubborn on what I am willing to pay for a house.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 12, 2022, 09:03:11 PM
I knew when I was 23 I was going to be middle upper to upper class eventually.  I was right.

Upper middle wasn't even on my radar until after I was already there. That's what happens when you marry up, but they agree to live in the place you could afford without them.

It was more that I entered a field that had a predictable pay scale during a career.  I did the math.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: jnw on February 12, 2022, 09:36:53 PM
Upper but it certainly does not feel like it because I am priced out 3/2 homes in good school zones in my area.  96.1 percentile on wealth at my age per Swordguy's link.  Either people are buying WAAAAY to much house or I am too stubborn on what I am willing to pay for a house.

Is it rich investors pumping up the housing market like they did with the last bubble before 2009?
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: MudPuppy on February 13, 2022, 12:19:32 AM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on February 13, 2022, 05:27:28 AM
Upper income tier.......woohoo?
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: jamster on February 13, 2022, 05:41:09 AM
According the the calculators, my husband and I are upper income and our net worth is at the 96th percentile for 40 year olds.

We are just quietly building it up; I don't think our friends have any clue. We live in a 1-bedroom apartment in DC, don't own a car, etc.

I am always so curious to know how my friends here compare, especially the ones who are buying million dollar homes and fancy cars. Are the balance sheets beneath the shiny purchases a horror show, or is there real wealth undergirding them?
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Tempname23 on February 13, 2022, 07:08:18 AM
I pondered something like this a while back, but more in relation to networth and income. But I didn't think income for one year was relevant, I think it should be income over your accumulation period. So I found government inflation adjustment numbers and my yearly income (SS site) and did the multiplication then averaged those numbers. (Excel) I came up with $71k. This is actually higher than I thought it would be, Knowing we had $18k income in 1982 and under $30k for 7 years ending in 2000. With $71k average inflation adjusted income I think puts us in the solid middle class neighborhood.
   It took us 37 years but we made it to the top 95% in networth. Would be a bit higher but we spent $300k on a child's education.
 Here is the spread sheet, but I did this in 2018, so the inflation numbers will all need to be changed to be relevant to 2021. You put in, Income of yourself and spouse and from there it calculates the average inflation adjusted income. There is some other stuff I was trying to do, but never completed those functions.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SsaRfRx_DBF38MssIvYVP2WrAIwgNhPyZ8B7xaBqXfs/edit#gid=0
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Omy on February 13, 2022, 08:04:08 AM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I agree that there are serious inequalities that need to be addressed to level the playing field. There are also people at all levels who defy the odds (in both directions).

I find it intriguing that my siblings and I started with a level playing field, and ended up at VERY different places. We chose very different paths, made very different choices, and ended up at very different levels of wealth
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: ixtap on February 13, 2022, 08:29:14 AM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I agree that there are serious inequalities that need to be addressed to level the playing field. There are also people at all levels who defy the odds (in both directions).

I find it intriguing that my siblings and I started with a level playing field, and ended up at VERY different places. We chose very different paths, made very different choices, and ended up at very different levels of wealth

Interestingly enough, my siblings chose sciences while I chose humanities. Bugged the heck out of my Dad that I didn't want to be an engineer. However, even when I was working on my PhD, I was more financially stable than they. Despite grad school and a short career, I have more than the average retiree in my retirement accounts. I was happily middle class, but saving well. On the other hand, my husband's mentor is more struggling upper class and pulled my husband along with him up the career ladder.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: American GenX on February 13, 2022, 09:52:21 AM
I didn't bother with the OP, but based on past references, I'm upper middle class but dropping quickly due to real world skyrocketing inflation.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: TempusFugit on February 13, 2022, 10:26:41 AM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I agree that there are serious inequalities that need to be addressed to level the playing field. There are also people at all levels who defy the odds (in both directions).

I find it intriguing that my siblings and I started with a level playing field, and ended up at VERY different places. We chose very different paths, made very different choices, and ended up at very different levels of wealth

While it is certainly true that the playing field is not level, the unfortunate reality is that for the most important parts, there isn't much that can be done.  I think if you included in these analyses factors such as who grew up in a two parent home or how many books are in the home you would find a remarkable correlation.  Small children who are not exposed to enough language at very young ages (well before preschool) will NEVER have the mental capacities that others will have. The window of opportunity closes by age 3-4 and they will be behind for the rest of their lives.  This affects not just academic IQ but also social IQ, which can drastically affect their career prospects.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: SwordGuy on February 13, 2022, 11:42:30 AM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I agree that there are serious inequalities that need to be addressed to level the playing field. There are also people at all levels who defy the odds (in both directions).

I find it intriguing that my siblings and I started with a level playing field, and ended up at VERY different places. We chose very different paths, made very different choices, and ended up at very different levels of wealth

While it is certainly true that the playing field is not level, the unfortunate reality is that for the most important parts, there isn't much that can be done.  I think if you included in these analyses factors such as who grew up in a two parent home or how many books are in the home you would find a remarkable correlation.  Small children who are not exposed to enough language at very young ages (well before preschool) will NEVER have the mental capacities that others will have. The window of opportunity closes by age 3-4 and they will be behind for the rest of their lives.  This affects not just academic IQ but also social IQ, which can drastically affect their career prospects.

Require businesses to pay a decent living for all full time jobs and pro-rate part-time jobs.   Woo hoo!  Suddenly every person with a job can make ends meet and afford books for the kiddos.   Fund programs to get books into the homes of the unemployed so they can read to the kids.

Tax the billionaires and mega-millionaires and corporations.

Alter tariffs so that tariffs from other countries with similar or better labor and environmental enforced laws are low and those without are very high, in order to cripple the worldwide race to the bottom we have now.  The western Europeans would coorperate with us on this.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: American GenX on February 13, 2022, 12:12:39 PM
Require businesses to pay a decent living for all full time jobs and pro-rate part-time jobs.   Woo hoo!  Suddenly every person with a job can make ends meet and afford books for the kiddos.

Except that just feeds into inflation and increases the cost of everything while the government can collect more taxes.  I think the onerous demands on business are bad enough as it is with the current minimum wage requirements, or with needing to pay more to people that don't want to work while they live off the government dole.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: JoePublic3.14 on February 13, 2022, 12:13:43 PM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I don’t get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: SwordGuy on February 13, 2022, 12:48:13 PM
Require businesses to pay a decent living for all full time jobs and pro-rate part-time jobs.   Woo hoo!  Suddenly every person with a job can make ends meet and afford books for the kiddos.

Except that just feeds into inflation and increases the cost of everything while the government can collect more taxes.  I think the onerous demands on business are bad enough as it is with the current minimum wage requirements, or with needing to pay more to people that don't want to work while they live off the government dole.
Then drop CEO and manager and other highly paid people's wages to compensate for the extra costs.   Or pay lower dividends.   Or make lower profits.

No business that depends on its workers living in poverty deserves to exist -- ESPECIALLY if there's plenty of profits to hand to others who don't even work there.

Some types of businesses will fail because they are predicated on predatory labor treatment.   Good.    If people don't want to pay for the cost of goods that includes people not living in poverty to make them, then we are better off without those goods.

Other types of businesses will prosper.  And that's as it should be.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: poxpower on February 13, 2022, 12:55:32 PM
I make upper, pay myself middle ( from stash ) and used to live below poverty line ( Canada ).

Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: MudPuppy on February 13, 2022, 01:31:31 PM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I don’t get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone “only” needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You don’t get to look down on those who aren’t at the same level of success and say they didn’t try hard enough, etc. being poor isn’t a moral failing and being middle or upper class isn’t a virtue.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: ixtap on February 13, 2022, 01:45:37 PM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I don’t get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone “only” needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You don’t get to look down on those who aren’t at the same level of success and say they didn’t try hard enough, etc. being poor isn’t a moral failing and being middle or upper class isn’t a virtue.

All you need to do is workout and work 60 hours a week. I dunno man, the landscapers around here are pretty buff and many work weekends for the over time. My BIL works pretty hard on those roofs, too.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: onecoolcat on February 13, 2022, 03:18:33 PM
Upper but it certainly does not feel like it because I am priced out 3/2 homes in good school zones in my area.  96.1 percentile on wealth at my age per Swordguy's link.  Either people are buying WAAAAY to much house or I am too stubborn on what I am willing to pay for a house.

Is it rich investors pumping up the housing market like they did with the last bubble before 2009?

I don't know the cause but it is discouraging.  A 3/2 1700 sq.ft. home in a good school zone starts at $500k and has HOA fees.  A 3/2 or 4/2 with 2,000 sq.ft. is closer to $600k.  Meanwhile, the average household income in the same city (all of the schools are good) is $70,000.  The County as a whole has an average household income of under $60k. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: JoePublic3.14 on February 13, 2022, 04:08:59 PM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I don’t get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone “only” needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You don’t get to look down on those who aren’t at the same level of success and say they didn’t try hard enough, etc. being poor isn’t a moral failing and being middle or upper class isn’t a virtue.

But in my response the xyz is qualitative and scaled to their resources. One should at least strive for the upper level they can. Then who knows, could get that lucky break and make it way past what you thought you could. Many parts of life are hard for a lot of people, so it goes. And there will always be people who use those hardships as an excuse.

And I do look down at the preventable poor, much like we facepunch folks here for poor choices.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Arbitrage on February 14, 2022, 10:22:58 AM
Upper but it certainly does not feel like it because I am priced out 3/2 homes in good school zones in my area.  96.1 percentile on wealth at my age per Swordguy's link.  Either people are buying WAAAAY to much house or I am too stubborn on what I am willing to pay for a house.

Is it rich investors pumping up the housing market like they did with the last bubble before 2009?

It may be a housing bubble, but it's certainly different than the last one.  During the last bubble, house prices and rents became wildly decoupled due to various factors.  This time around, rents are skyrocketing as well - if not in tandem, at least alongside price increases.  Note that house prices are not included (directly) in CPI, but rents are, and are a big contributor to the headline inflation numbers we're seeing.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/14/1080145270/its-not-just-home-prices-rents-rise-sharply-across-the-u-s
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: iris lily on February 14, 2022, 12:53:22 PM
I'm fat FIREd...with income in the lower class range.
That is a sweet place to be. Before we kicked  in Social Security payouts, we were there. Low taxes. Nanny G. thinks we are poor because
Nanny only looks at income. She gives great ACA subsidies.

But now we are middle according to this chart of 10 states.,Right exactly in the middle
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Omy on February 14, 2022, 01:12:08 PM
It is a lovely spot. Social Security and RMDs will shoot our income into upper class levels in a decade...but enjoying the perks for now.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: StarBright on February 14, 2022, 03:19:51 PM
This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.

Funny - I came away with the thought that it is harder to break into the upper tier than I expected. 

So I was born middle class (my dad is a CPA, mom a teacher). I've done everything "right" (other than not becoming a software engineer or finance person): have worked since I was 13, valedictorian, college, grad school, etc.  Not to be snarky - but "great work ethic" and "disciplined" are words used to  describe me on the regular.

I'm still middle class.

If we didn't have kids we'd be closer to upper class though (per the calculator). That rings true for lifestyle as well.

Networth wise we are in the top 20% - but I honestly still feel like I'm hustlin' every day. I've been pulling a paycheck for 27 years this year.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Virtus3 on February 17, 2022, 08:39:42 AM
We moved from middle to upper in the last year and are in the 94th percentile for net worth for our age range.

The net worth really shows me how much struggle there is as I would consider us below-average mustachians...

I'm firmly of the belief that hard work isn't all that's required. I grew up extremely privileged and while I would consider myself hard working and take a lot of pride in what I do I'm not naïve to the fact that luck/chance has played a huge role in where I am today.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: wageslave23 on February 17, 2022, 10:20:44 AM
This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.

Funny - I came away with the thought that it is harder to break into the upper tier than I expected. 

So I was born middle class (my dad is a CPA, mom a teacher). I've done everything "right" (other than not becoming a software engineer or finance person): have worked since I was 13, valedictorian, college, grad school, etc.  Not to be snarky - but "great work ethic" and "disciplined" are words used to  describe me on the regular.

I'm still middle class.

If we didn't have kids we'd be closer to upper class though (per the calculator). That rings true for lifestyle as well.

Networth wise we are in the top 20% - but I honestly still feel like I'm hustlin' every day. I've been pulling a paycheck for 27 years this year.

I guess the number of kids you have can change the equation but I don't think it should. Class should be determined by income per household.  What you choose to spend that income on should be irrelevant.  Whether it's vacations, children, movies, etc.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Paper Chaser on February 17, 2022, 11:10:49 AM
This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.

Funny - I came away with the thought that it is harder to break into the upper tier than I expected. 

So I was born middle class (my dad is a CPA, mom a teacher). I've done everything "right" (other than not becoming a software engineer or finance person): have worked since I was 13, valedictorian, college, grad school, etc.  Not to be snarky - but "great work ethic" and "disciplined" are words used to  describe me on the regular.

I'm still middle class.

If we didn't have kids we'd be closer to upper class though (per the calculator). That rings true for lifestyle as well.

Networth wise we are in the top 20% - but I honestly still feel like I'm hustlin' every day. I've been pulling a paycheck for 27 years this year.

I guess the number of kids you have can change the equation but I don't think it should. Class should be determined by income per household.  What you choose to spend that income on should be irrelevant.  Whether it's vacations, children, movies, etc.

Elon Musk had $0 of taxable income in 2020, so if we're only using incomes to determine this silly measuring then I'm way higher class than the wealthiest man on the planet! Take that Musk!
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: wageslave23 on February 17, 2022, 12:04:35 PM
This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.

Funny - I came away with the thought that it is harder to break into the upper tier than I expected. 

So I was born middle class (my dad is a CPA, mom a teacher). I've done everything "right" (other than not becoming a software engineer or finance person): have worked since I was 13, valedictorian, college, grad school, etc.  Not to be snarky - but "great work ethic" and "disciplined" are words used to  describe me on the regular.

I'm still middle class.

If we didn't have kids we'd be closer to upper class though (per the calculator). That rings true for lifestyle as well.

Networth wise we are in the top 20% - but I honestly still feel like I'm hustlin' every day. I've been pulling a paycheck for 27 years this year.

I guess the number of kids you have can change the equation but I don't think it should. Class should be determined by income per household.  What you choose to spend that income on should be irrelevant.  Whether it's vacations, children, movies, etc.

Elon Musk had $0 of taxable income in 2020, so if we're only using incomes to determine this silly measuring then I'm way higher class than the wealthiest man on the planet! Take that Musk!

I guess it depends on why you are trying to determine classes anyway. Usually it's in the context of taxation. If LeBron James blows all of his $50 million salary and has $0 networth, he should still be in the highest tax bracket and I would still consider him part of the upper class.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Morning Glory on February 17, 2022, 12:06:25 PM
Aren't we all here because we're trying not to be in any income class?
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Paper Chaser on February 17, 2022, 12:39:51 PM
This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.

Funny - I came away with the thought that it is harder to break into the upper tier than I expected. 

So I was born middle class (my dad is a CPA, mom a teacher). I've done everything "right" (other than not becoming a software engineer or finance person): have worked since I was 13, valedictorian, college, grad school, etc.  Not to be snarky - but "great work ethic" and "disciplined" are words used to  describe me on the regular.

I'm still middle class.

If we didn't have kids we'd be closer to upper class though (per the calculator). That rings true for lifestyle as well.

Networth wise we are in the top 20% - but I honestly still feel like I'm hustlin' every day. I've been pulling a paycheck for 27 years this year.

I guess the number of kids you have can change the equation but I don't think it should. Class should be determined by income per household.  What you choose to spend that income on should be irrelevant.  Whether it's vacations, children, movies, etc.

Elon Musk had $0 of taxable income in 2020, so if we're only using incomes to determine this silly measuring then I'm way higher class than the wealthiest man on the planet! Take that Musk!

I guess it depends on why you are trying to determine classes anyway.

Exactly. Why are we trying to determine this stuff? It's not like some achievement is suddenly unlocked if you go from one arbitrary "class" to another. Incomes don't matter. Net worth does. Or more specifically, the value of income generating assets.

It's fine to use some of these calculators to get a rough idea if you're headed in the right direction or not, but an increasing net worth should tell you the same thing. I think a lot of this is just trying to pat ourselves on the back or make ourselves feel superior.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: wageslave23 on February 17, 2022, 12:48:36 PM
This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.

Funny - I came away with the thought that it is harder to break into the upper tier than I expected. 

So I was born middle class (my dad is a CPA, mom a teacher). I've done everything "right" (other than not becoming a software engineer or finance person): have worked since I was 13, valedictorian, college, grad school, etc.  Not to be snarky - but "great work ethic" and "disciplined" are words used to  describe me on the regular.

I'm still middle class.

If we didn't have kids we'd be closer to upper class though (per the calculator). That rings true for lifestyle as well.

Networth wise we are in the top 20% - but I honestly still feel like I'm hustlin' every day. I've been pulling a paycheck for 27 years this year.

I guess the number of kids you have can change the equation but I don't think it should. Class should be determined by income per household.  What you choose to spend that income on should be irrelevant.  Whether it's vacations, children, movies, etc.

Elon Musk had $0 of taxable income in 2020, so if we're only using incomes to determine this silly measuring then I'm way higher class than the wealthiest man on the planet! Take that Musk!

I guess it depends on why you are trying to determine classes anyway.

Exactly. Why are we trying to determine this stuff? It's not like some achievement is suddenly unlocked if you go from one arbitrary "class" to another. Incomes don't matter. Net worth does. Or more specifically, the value of income generating assets.

It's fine to use some of these calculators to get a rough idea if you're headed in the right direction or not, but an increasing net worth should tell you the same thing. I think a lot of this is just trying to pat ourselves on the back or make ourselves feel superior.

Like I said, I find that it usually revolves around income tax rates and a way to vilify the "upper class".  But I'm a CPA, so my perception may be skewed.  No one wants to think of themselves as part of the evil upper class.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Sanitary Stache on February 17, 2022, 03:59:05 PM
I guess if you want to determine your net worth class you could use the net worth calculator and if you want to determine your income class you can use the income calculator.

As mustachians and aspiring mustachians we are probably most interested in our spending class. Or really our savings class. And we already know where we want to be in that class.

Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Arbitrage on February 18, 2022, 09:37:51 AM

Like I said, I find that it usually revolves around income tax rates and a way to vilify the "upper class".  But I'm a CPA, so my perception may be skewed.  No one wants to think of themselves as part of the evil upper class.

Indeed.  Very rich people still like to call themselves "upper middle class."  Some of my rich friends (~$2M/year income) have only very begrudgingly admitted that they're rich, but still point to some richer co-workers as the ones who have truly "made it."  Not sure if they would cop to being upper class.

We made the voluntary jump from the 10% to the 20% recently by cutting our hours and pay in half.  In spending terms, we're closer to the median, as we're still saving about 40% of our income. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on February 20, 2022, 08:23:52 AM
The more wealthy people I know act and describe themselves as modest.

I think it's a bit of imposter syndrome.  As long as they know of people with more they aren't there yet.

All this talk of inequality in mobility is interesting.

My personal belief:
 it's never been easier to climb the success ladder *IF* a multitude of things beyond your control align in your favor.

I'm often frustrated by people who say work harder, work smarter....etc etc.   Assuming all socia-economic factors were equalized there's still a huge variation in ability at a biological level. Simple things like self discipline, intelligence etc etc.  I don't have a long term solution. I realize shits not fair but appreciate that it's working out for me. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mizzourah2006 on February 20, 2022, 08:41:20 AM
I think people will always look up for comparison. I have a friend who's HH income is over $600k/yr and he will tell me with a straight face that they aren't upper class. They are in the 99th percentile in HH income basically any way you slice it, but because he still can't literally buy anything he wants when he wants it he considers himself middle class.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Morning Glory on February 20, 2022, 08:45:53 AM
I think people will always look up for comparison. I have a friend who's HH income is over $600k/yr and he will tell me with a straight face that they aren't upper class. They are in the 99th percentile in HH income basically any way you slice it, but because he still can't literally buy anything he wants when he wants it he considers himself middle class.

His problem is wanting too many things. In that case those of us who are content with enough are quite wealthy.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mizzourah2006 on February 20, 2022, 09:01:36 AM
I think people will always look up for comparison. I have a friend who's HH income is over $600k/yr and he will tell me with a straight face that they aren't upper class. They are in the 99th percentile in HH income basically any way you slice it, but because he still can't literally buy anything he wants when he wants it he considers himself middle class.

His problem is wanting too many things. In that case those of us who are content with enough are quite wealthy.

I don't think he even really "wants" many of these things. I think it's more seeing people with "nicer" things than him and realizing that if he wanted to for example, go buy a Tesla Model S tomorrow it would become a budget line item he couldn't just ignore.

I think the problem most people have is comparing across. It gets back to the age old adage that you can afford anything you want, but you can't afford everything you want. If I see friend A buy a $600k house, then friend B buys a Tesla Model S, then friend C spends a month in Europe, then friend D puts in a $100k pool. The natural comparison isn't to any one of those, it's to all of them. I have friends that are buying $600k houses, brand new Teslas, vacationing for a month in Europe and putting in new pools...I can't afford to do all of that...so clearly I'm middle class.

I also think this is part of the problem with social media. You see all of your friends "best lives". It makes it seem like everyone is living a better life than you, but in reality if you go to any one person's timeline they are pretty normal. You just only see them post the 4-5x a year that they are doing really cool shit. Multiply that by 200 friends and almost every day it seems like a couple of your friends are living way cooler lives than you. You couldn't afford to do everything all of them are doing, so your life is dull in comparison.

Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: iris lily on February 20, 2022, 10:01:32 AM
Aren't we all here because we're trying not to be in any income class?

Haha. Yeah.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Just Joe on February 22, 2022, 10:12:33 AM
I also think this is part of the problem with social media. You see all of your friends "best lives". It makes it seem like everyone is living a better life than you, but in reality if you go to any one person's timeline they are pretty normal. You just only see them post the 4-5x a year that they are doing really cool shit. Multiply that by 200 friends and almost every day it seems like a couple of your friends are living way cooler lives than you. You couldn't afford to do everything all of them are doing, so your life is dull in comparison.

I belong to several DIY hobby groups.

It is refreshing to see people start with basic materials or some worn out thing and finish with something of utility or resale value. Good for the brain. Can be good for the environment when the final result delivers good utility.

Also can be - not always though - a good side hustle. Build two or three and keep one at reduced cost or free.

For me this can help mentally counteract the conspicuous consumption seen everywhere these days.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: partgypsy on February 22, 2022, 11:02:11 AM
I was curious so I'm middle class, and net worth better than 74% people my age, but ob a huge long tail for those w millions in net worth. think I understand my friends w benefits guy better. He is is looking up at the long tail and wants to be there, doesn't feel like he's where he wants to be despite making many times what he needs. I realize, I don't really know what these calculators are meant to do really.  If anything it makes me feel a little bad I and my siblings were never the go getters our Dad wanted us to be. However if I did make more money, or come into money my interests are not to make more money but do other things w my time.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Morning Glory on February 22, 2022, 04:24:48 PM
I also think this is part of the problem with social media. You see all of your friends "best lives". It makes it seem like everyone is living a better life than you, but in reality if you go to any one person's timeline they are pretty normal. You just only see them post the 4-5x a year that they are doing really cool shit. Multiply that by 200 friends and almost every day it seems like a couple of your friends are living way cooler lives than you. You couldn't afford to do everything all of them are doing, so your life is dull in comparison.

I belong to several DIY hobby groups.

It is refreshing to see people start with basic materials or some worn out thing and finish with something of utility or resale value. Good for the brain. Can be good for the environment when the final result delivers good utility.

Also can be - not always though - a good side hustle. Build two or three and keep one at reduced cost or free.

For me this can help mentally counteract the conspicuous consumption seen everywhere these days.

Sounds like a fun group!
I just skimmed my Facebook feed and other than memes it's babies, baked goods, and wordle.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Tempname23 on February 22, 2022, 05:25:51 PM
I see a major flaw in this for us FIRE seekers. I would think we want to where we stand over our life time income. (I thought I addressed this I but don't see my name in this thread). Several years ago, I wanted to know what my average income was over our married life. Using the $18k we earned in 1982 didn't seem right, so I found government inflation data and used that to inflate the $18k up to today's dollars. I used a speadsheet and did this for every year forward. (I did this in 2018)
  I then added all this inflation adjusted yearly incomes and divided by how many years that was for. I ended up with $71k, This was much more than I expected. I though we would have come in well below the US median income, I think it was 11% above the US median income at the time.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: stoaX on February 23, 2022, 05:09:59 AM
Aren't we all here because we're trying not to be in any income class?

Haha. Yeah.

Thanks, this made me smile!
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: NorthernFire on June 10, 2022, 04:36:21 PM
Apparently we are in the upper. Feels like middle at best. Probably because I get more enjoyment from saving than spending so we do not have the possessions of an upper middle class family. But at the end of the day we are happy. :)
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: clarkfan1979 on June 14, 2022, 01:50:06 AM
We are presently in the lower income tier.  Income is one measurement, but far from the whole picture.  Even if you don't have a high net worth, being debt free vs. highly in debt makes a HUGE difference when it comes to utilizing the same amount of income.   

We currently have around 65K in W-2 income, 36K in rental income and 1.1 million in debt.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Missy B on June 14, 2022, 07:10:24 PM
I think people will always look up for comparison. I have a friend who's HH income is over $600k/yr and he will tell me with a straight face that they aren't upper class. They are in the 99th percentile in HH income basically any way you slice it, but because he still can't literally buy anything he wants when he wants it he considers himself middle class.
As a Canadian informed by the English definition of classes, this whole discussion is strange.
Middle class status can be earned or lost, but you can't enter the upper class just by making a lot of money. There's a cultural difference, a social difference.
The guy that makes 600K a year who can buy anything he wants *is* middle class. That's where he came from, that's who he is. There are some quite well-off lower class London East-siders who made their money running their own businesses. They are proud of their work and success, but would never dream of claiming that they have changed classes, as they are fiercely proud of who they are and where they came from.

By the way, any study that claims to divide class status based on yearly income, which is a middle-class focus, is revealing the sad ignorance and bias of the study author. Wealthy people and upper class people (I'm making a distinction here between them even though they overlap) talk about net worth, not about salary. If they talk about it at all. In upper class circles historically it's considered very bad taste.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on June 15, 2022, 02:32:28 AM
@Missy B, I think that's why the thread is titled "which income class are you" and not "which social class are you".

Two very distinct things for sure. Just head over to the "Race from $2  to $4 Million and Beyond" thread for examples.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mizzourah2006 on June 15, 2022, 11:33:13 AM
So is the argument then that only people with historical names are part of the upper class? I guess that would put, what like a couple thousand people in the US that are truly upper class and everyone else is middle or lower class?

I'd argue that a person from a couple from well to do NYC families with a law degree from a top 10 law school working at a top firm in the world with a spouse that works at a big 4 consulting firm making $600k+ a year is not middle class, whether that's from a social or income perspective. If that type of person is middle class only the truly elite rich are "upper class".

My main point was if he only looks in his close social circle it's easy to see yourself as middle class regardless of how you compare to the rest of the people in the US.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Missy B on June 15, 2022, 11:54:52 PM
So is the argument then that only people with historical names are part of the upper class? I guess that would put, what like a couple thousand people in the US that are truly upper class and everyone else is middle or lower class?

I'd argue that a person from a couple from well to do NYC families with a law degree from a top 10 law school working at a top firm in the world with a spouse that works at a big 4 consulting firm making $600k+ a year is not middle class, whether that's from a social or income perspective. If that type of person is middle class only the truly elite rich are "upper class".

My main point was if he only looks in his close social circle it's easy to see yourself as middle class regardless of how you compare to the rest of the people in the US.
I don't think the term 'upper class' is the correct term to use. It has an inseparable association with a particular social class. Better to refer to people who are making high six figures and or high net worth as part of the 'wealth class'.
There's a lot more than 2000 people in the US that are part of the traditionally defined upper class. I often get the impression that Americans particularly focus on the money aspect of being upper class and don't understand the rest of the cultural and social stuff that comes with that. What I'm seeing in your response and generally in the thread is a belief that current income can make you upper class, which isn't true.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: EvenSteven on June 16, 2022, 07:41:21 AM
So is the argument then that only people with historical names are part of the upper class? I guess that would put, what like a couple thousand people in the US that are truly upper class and everyone else is middle or lower class?

I'd argue that a person from a couple from well to do NYC families with a law degree from a top 10 law school working at a top firm in the world with a spouse that works at a big 4 consulting firm making $600k+ a year is not middle class, whether that's from a social or income perspective. If that type of person is middle class only the truly elite rich are "upper class".

My main point was if he only looks in his close social circle it's easy to see yourself as middle class regardless of how you compare to the rest of the people in the US.
I don't think the term 'upper class' is the correct term to use. It has an inseparable association with a particular social class. Better to refer to people who are making high six figures and or high net worth as part of the 'wealth class'.
There's a lot more than 2000 people in the US that are part of the traditionally defined upper class. I often get the impression that Americans particularly focus on the money aspect of being upper class and don't understand the rest of the cultural and social stuff that comes with that. What I'm seeing in your response and generally in the thread is a belief that current income can make you upper class, which isn't true.

For income distribution I usually talk about quintiles. Lowest 20% corresponds to working class income (because "lower" class is pejorative), middle 60% corresponds to middle class income, and top 20% corresponds to upper class income.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: poetdereves on June 16, 2022, 07:44:00 AM
Our current income puts us in the upper category. The linked personalfinancedata website says we are currently 90.8% with our base salaries currently with the likely chance to be in the 94.8% category if we hit project completion bonuses and keep our rental houses filled for the year.

Our wealth total is a different story because we were only making ~$50k combined up until three years ago and were paying for school for DW and myself. If you include the equity in our homes based off of swordguy's net worth calculator that he linked we are at 60%.

Honestly, I am excited for the day that we are in the highest percentile on the net worth calculator and the the lower income on the pew study. We are probably less than ten years away from that scenario and it will mean we would have hit FIRE at that point.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: clarkfan1979 on June 16, 2022, 09:47:26 AM
So is the argument then that only people with historical names are part of the upper class? I guess that would put, what like a couple thousand people in the US that are truly upper class and everyone else is middle or lower class?

I'd argue that a person from a couple from well to do NYC families with a law degree from a top 10 law school working at a top firm in the world with a spouse that works at a big 4 consulting firm making $600k+ a year is not middle class, whether that's from a social or income perspective. If that type of person is middle class only the truly elite rich are "upper class".

My main point was if he only looks in his close social circle it's easy to see yourself as middle class regardless of how you compare to the rest of the people in the US.
I don't think the term 'upper class' is the correct term to use. It has an inseparable association with a particular social class. Better to refer to people who are making high six figures and or high net worth as part of the 'wealth class'.
There's a lot more than 2000 people in the US that are part of the traditionally defined upper class. I often get the impression that Americans particularly focus on the money aspect of being upper class and don't understand the rest of the cultural and social stuff that comes with that. What I'm seeing in your response and generally in the thread is a belief that current income can make you upper class, which isn't true.
The OP was mainly asking about income class not social class. Two very different things. I think maybe the right term for income would be "level" rather then class so as to separate the 2. I'm at a low income level (but higher wealth level). My social class (which I would define by lifestyle, background, family, peers, maybe job and education, etc  rather then money - although having wealth would be a huge part of it) would probably be lower middle class. I'm not exactly hanging out at tractor pulls but then I'm not dining in the Hamptons with the Vanderbuilts.

My dad was a union construction worker in the Chicagoland area until he retired in 2011 at the age of 62. His income was relatively high toward the end of his career because he was offered opportunities to work overtime, in which he was paid a 50% higher hourly wage. However, he had to abuse his body at an old age to get the high income. No paid time off. If he didn't work, he didn't get paid. I'm guessing his average income was 80K from 2001 to 2011 and that was based on 50 hours/week. His spouse was a hair stylist and made 40K/year working 40 hours/week. They owned a house, but lived paycheck to paycheck. They are currently retired and live on my dad's pension and social security. Not a bad retirement.

My wife and I make less than they did 10-20 years ago, but we work less and don't live paycheck to paycheck and take more vacation. My salary is 54K and it's based on 1,000 hours/year. My wife made 11K last year at her part-time job and it's based on 500 hours/year. We also have 36K/year in rental income and my time on the rentals averages out to be 200-400 hours/year.

Our total working hours are 1,700-1,900 hours/year and my parents were 4500 hours/year. Yes, they had a higher income, but their quality of life was much less. Because my dad didn't get paid if he didn't work, he rarely took a vacation. He would maybe do 3 hunting/fishing trips/year in which he took Friday off. 

I'm personally more concerned with quality of life, not income. Very excited for 2022 because we are getting a boost in income without sacrificing quality of life. In August 2022, rental cash flow is going up $1,000/month and I'm getting a 5-6% raise at my job. My wife is on pace to make an extra 5-6K in 2022. These raises are not huge, but we didn't have to work any additional hours to achieve them.

   





Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: clarkfan1979 on June 18, 2022, 04:39:12 PM
So is the argument then that only people with historical names are part of the upper class? I guess that would put, what like a couple thousand people in the US that are truly upper class and everyone else is middle or lower class?

I'd argue that a person from a couple from well to do NYC families with a law degree from a top 10 law school working at a top firm in the world with a spouse that works at a big 4 consulting firm making $600k+ a year is not middle class, whether that's from a social or income perspective. If that type of person is middle class only the truly elite rich are "upper class".

My main point was if he only looks in his close social circle it's easy to see yourself as middle class regardless of how you compare to the rest of the people in the US.
I don't think the term 'upper class' is the correct term to use. It has an inseparable association with a particular social class. Better to refer to people who are making high six figures and or high net worth as part of the 'wealth class'.
There's a lot more than 2000 people in the US that are part of the traditionally defined upper class. I often get the impression that Americans particularly focus on the money aspect of being upper class and don't understand the rest of the cultural and social stuff that comes with that. What I'm seeing in your response and generally in the thread is a belief that current income can make you upper class, which isn't true.
The OP was mainly asking about income class not social class. Two very different things. I think maybe the right term for income would be "level" rather then class so as to separate the 2. I'm at a low income level (but higher wealth level). My social class (which I would define by lifestyle, background, family, peers, maybe job and education, etc  rather then money - although having wealth would be a huge part of it) would probably be lower middle class. I'm not exactly hanging out at tractor pulls but then I'm not dining in the Hamptons with the Vanderbuilts.

My dad was a union construction worker in the Chicagoland area until he retired in 2011 at the age of 62. His income was relatively high toward the end of his career because he was offered opportunities to work overtime, in which he was paid a 50% higher hourly wage. However, he had to abuse his body at an old age to get the high income. No paid time off. If he didn't work, he didn't get paid. I'm guessing his average income was 80K from 2001 to 2011 and that was based on 50 hours/week. His spouse was a hair stylist and made 40K/year working 40 hours/week. They owned a house, but lived paycheck to paycheck. They are currently retired and live on my dad's pension and social security. Not a bad retirement.

My wife and I make less than they did 10-20 years ago, but we work less and don't live paycheck to paycheck and take more vacation. My salary is 54K and it's based on 1,000 hours/year. My wife made 11K last year at her part-time job and it's based on 500 hours/year. We also have 36K/year in rental income and my time on the rentals averages out to be 200-400 hours/year.

Our total working hours are 1,700-1,900 hours/year and my parents were 4500 hours/year. Yes, they had a higher income, but their quality of life was much less. Because my dad didn't get paid if he didn't work, he rarely took a vacation. He would maybe do 3 hunting/fishing trips/year in which he took Friday off. 

I'm personally more concerned with quality of life, not income. Very excited for 2022 because we are getting a boost in income without sacrificing quality of life. In August 2022, rental cash flow is going up $1,000/month and I'm getting a 5-6% raise at my job. My wife is on pace to make an extra 5-6K in 2022. These raises are not huge, but we didn't have to work any additional hours to achieve them.

 
I'm surprised they couldn't save more as those are relatively high-ish salaries combined in the early to mid 2000s.  Heck even today!  I also had a blue collar physical job but made half or less of what your Dad did and managed to save quite a bit - enough to lean FIRE in my 30s - despite a divorce. But I wasn't raising kids so had fewer expenses and able to get roommates and work extra hours to pay off mortgage and save more then people with kids.

I think my dad was OK with a 0% savings rate because I think his plan was to live on his pension and SS in retirement. He definitely had the ability to save if he valued it. However, he didn't really value saving because he didn't know how to invest. He would rather spend it now than later. He was financially responsible in the sense that he would never spend money that he didn't have.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Tempname23 on June 21, 2022, 07:57:19 AM
Back in 2018 (when we retired) I used my SS statement of income, used government inflation numbers to make income adjustments from 1981 to 2018 and used a Google Sheets to do the calculations. Then I added them all up and divided by the number of years. Our average inflation adjusted income came out to $71k. This puts us about $4k below the middle income average.
 This was actually higher than what I thought about our life long income. There were many years below $20k and many below $30k. But then adjusted for inflation even our $18k income in 1981 adjusted to over $50k in 2018. The highest we ever earned was $98k. If you are interested in seeing your adjusted income, I made this google sheet back then, it should still work, in the sheet there is a link to the inflation numbers, it needs 4 more years of inflation data added, as I did it in 2018.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SsaRfRx_DBF38MssIvYVP2WrAIwgNhPyZ8B7xaBqXfs/edit#gid=0
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Tempname23 on June 22, 2022, 07:08:30 AM

It may be a housing bubble, but it's certainly different than the last one.  During the last bubble, house prices and rents became wildly decoupled due to various factors.  This time around, rents are skyrocketing as well - if not in tandem, at least alongside price increases.  Note that house prices are not included (directly) in CPI, but rents are, and are a big contributor to the headline inflation numbers we're seeing.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/14/1080145270/its-not-just-home-prices-rents-rise-sharply-across-the-u-s

  Here's a rather depressing graph of Home Price to Income Ratio. It is now worse than the 2006 housing bubble.
https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 22, 2022, 08:36:46 AM
Seems like so much of it in the US is really based on the family/personal/health situation.  A couple that works for the minimum wage at Target in my area is making $15/hr which works out to $60k/year between the two of them.  If there are no health issues or kids involved (both either preventing work or costing money) that seems like a fairly solid income for around here.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Simpli-Fi on June 22, 2022, 09:57:36 AM
According to the calculator I am in the middle tier along with 58% in the Bellingham Metropolitan area.
funny it said the same about me and my family...and I just doubled my income, and it says the exact same thing; now what does that say?
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: clarkfan1979 on June 22, 2022, 09:58:49 AM

It may be a housing bubble, but it's certainly different than the last one.  During the last bubble, house prices and rents became wildly decoupled due to various factors.  This time around, rents are skyrocketing as well - if not in tandem, at least alongside price increases.  Note that house prices are not included (directly) in CPI, but rents are, and are a big contributor to the headline inflation numbers we're seeing.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/14/1080145270/its-not-just-home-prices-rents-rise-sharply-across-the-u-s

  Here's a rather depressing graph of Home Price to Income Ratio. It is now worse than the 2006 housing bubble.
https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/

The graph isn't considering interest rates. Now that interest rates in June 2022 are comparable to 2006, an updated graph would be more depressing.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: sixwings on June 22, 2022, 10:06:10 AM
So is the argument then that only people with historical names are part of the upper class? I guess that would put, what like a couple thousand people in the US that are truly upper class and everyone else is middle or lower class?

I'd argue that a person from a couple from well to do NYC families with a law degree from a top 10 law school working at a top firm in the world with a spouse that works at a big 4 consulting firm making $600k+ a year is not middle class, whether that's from a social or income perspective. If that type of person is middle class only the truly elite rich are "upper class".

My main point was if he only looks in his close social circle it's easy to see yourself as middle class regardless of how you compare to the rest of the people in the US.
I don't think the term 'upper class' is the correct term to use. It has an inseparable association with a particular social class. Better to refer to people who are making high six figures and or high net worth as part of the 'wealth class'.
There's a lot more than 2000 people in the US that are part of the traditionally defined upper class. I often get the impression that Americans particularly focus on the money aspect of being upper class and don't understand the rest of the cultural and social stuff that comes with that. What I'm seeing in your response and generally in the thread is a belief that current income can make you upper class, which isn't true.
The OP was mainly asking about income class not social class. Two very different things. I think maybe the right term for income would be "level" rather then class so as to separate the 2. I'm at a low income level (but higher wealth level). My social class (which I would define by lifestyle, background, family, peers, maybe job and education, etc  rather then money - although having wealth would be a huge part of it) would probably be lower middle class. I'm not exactly hanging out at tractor pulls but then I'm not dining in the Hamptons with the Vanderbuilts.

My dad was a union construction worker in the Chicagoland area until he retired in 2011 at the age of 62. His income was relatively high toward the end of his career because he was offered opportunities to work overtime, in which he was paid a 50% higher hourly wage. However, he had to abuse his body at an old age to get the high income. No paid time off. If he didn't work, he didn't get paid. I'm guessing his average income was 80K from 2001 to 2011 and that was based on 50 hours/week. His spouse was a hair stylist and made 40K/year working 40 hours/week. They owned a house, but lived paycheck to paycheck. They are currently retired and live on my dad's pension and social security. Not a bad retirement.

My wife and I make less than they did 10-20 years ago, but we work less and don't live paycheck to paycheck and take more vacation. My salary is 54K and it's based on 1,000 hours/year. My wife made 11K last year at her part-time job and it's based on 500 hours/year. We also have 36K/year in rental income and my time on the rentals averages out to be 200-400 hours/year.

Our total working hours are 1,700-1,900 hours/year and my parents were 4500 hours/year. Yes, they had a higher income, but their quality of life was much less. Because my dad didn't get paid if he didn't work, he rarely took a vacation. He would maybe do 3 hunting/fishing trips/year in which he took Friday off. 

I'm personally more concerned with quality of life, not income. Very excited for 2022 because we are getting a boost in income without sacrificing quality of life. In August 2022, rental cash flow is going up $1,000/month and I'm getting a 5-6% raise at my job. My wife is on pace to make an extra 5-6K in 2022. These raises are not huge, but we didn't have to work any additional hours to achieve them.

 
I'm surprised they couldn't save more as those are relatively high-ish salaries combined in the early to mid 2000s.  Heck even today!  I also had a blue collar physical job but made half or less of what your Dad did and managed to save quite a bit - enough to lean FIRE in my 30s - despite a divorce. But I wasn't raising kids so had fewer expenses and able to get roommates and work extra hours to pay off mortgage and save more then people with kids.

I think my dad was OK with a 0% savings rate because I think his plan was to live on his pension and SS in retirement. He definitely had the ability to save if he valued it. However, he didn't really value saving because he didn't know how to invest. He would rather spend it now than later. He was financially responsible in the sense that he would never spend money that he didn't have.

Pension contributions should be considered part of a savings rate, it is retirement savings, so his savings rate wasn't 0, it was probably like 5-10%, which isn't awful.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Arbitrage on July 06, 2022, 10:40:46 AM

It may be a housing bubble, but it's certainly different than the last one.  During the last bubble, house prices and rents became wildly decoupled due to various factors.  This time around, rents are skyrocketing as well - if not in tandem, at least alongside price increases.  Note that house prices are not included (directly) in CPI, but rents are, and are a big contributor to the headline inflation numbers we're seeing.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/14/1080145270/its-not-just-home-prices-rents-rise-sharply-across-the-u-s

  Here's a rather depressing graph of Home Price to Income Ratio. It is now worse than the 2006 housing bubble.
https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/

The graph isn't considering interest rates. Now that interest rates in June 2022 are comparable to 2006, an updated graph would be more depressing.

Agreed, and a big reason I'm expecting my house value to dip at least a bit.  In one year since we bought, the price spiked over 20% (after 20% increases each of the previous two years) and mortgage rates literally doubled.  Far less affordability, and with almost all other asset classes down as well people aren't flush with cash.  My town is not a high-income town, either, so people who aren't bringing money from elsewhere (remote work, long commutes, retirement funds, etc.) are going to have real trouble at these levels.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: happychineseboy on July 15, 2022, 10:04:21 PM
This shows me how easy it is to be in the "upper class". I'm an accountant and my wife is a nurse who works part-time.  The American ladder isn't broken, all it takes to be upper class is a little effort and discipline.
Easy? A little effort? You mean there are enough good paying jobs for everyone who works hard?  Opportunities are the exact same for everyone? Who knew!

If it were easy  tens of millions more people would be better off. Your comments make you sound pretty naive. Just saying, dont take offense.

I am in agreement with wageslave23

There are plenty of high paying jobs out there for qualified candidates. Of course the playing field is not even but hard workers do not go unnoticed and rise to the top quickly. The inverse can be said for the lazy and unmotivated, they sink to the bottom and flail and complain instead of working hard and doing something productive about it.

Signed - 31 years old, "hardworking" family of 3, $390k household income. Firmly outside of the middle class bounds.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Omy on July 16, 2022, 07:42:23 AM
I assume you weren't born to two drug addicted parents and  always had plenty to eat and a safe, warm home to live in.

It's not a level playing field. I'm EXTREMELY fortunate to have been born into a middle class family that valued education and hard work. People who didn't have these advantages can still be successful...but the deck is definitely stacked against them.

Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: ixtap on July 16, 2022, 11:18:23 AM
Walked passed someone this morning who was saying "He is closer to retirement than working class." So obviously, no one knows anything.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Tempname23 on July 18, 2022, 07:23:53 AM
The income Range for the middle in my area is $37k to $109,700, with the middle being $73,350. Our inflation adjusted income from marriage to retirement was $71,000 in 2018. So, Just under the middle*, but we are now retired living on about $60k. The 4% rule would say we can live on $100,000. In 2 yrs 8 months, we will get $55K in SS. We may being "movin on up" to the upperclass (per the site), however, we haven't learned to BTD, so we will be taxed that way, but we won't spend that way! :-)

 *I always write, we were, "Middle, Middle Class Earners". The Pew site confirms it.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Tempname23 on July 27, 2022, 07:33:20 AM
The more wealthy people I know act and describe themselves as modest.

I think it's a bit of imposter syndrome.

 Yes, funny how they put themselves below where they really are.
Quote

I'm often frustrated by people who say work harder, work smarter....etc etc.   

I'm pretty sure the only reason I made it to the top 5% on a middle, middle class income was because I married an immigrant that was very frugal with a dollar, neither of us went to college, but our savings started the day we got married. The other luck I had was, I took a big interest in a radio talk show host that focused on investing in no-load mutual funds. I started listening in the very late 80s, and structured my work around Sat. and Sun. between 3PM and 6PM, just to be alone in the shop to listen to Bob Brinker, he was a big factor in me investing our savings.
Quote

Assuming all socia-economic factors were equalized there's still a huge variation in ability at a biological level. Simple things like self discipline, intelligence etc etc. 

Yes, 1/2 of the population is below average!
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Bateaux on July 28, 2022, 11:31:32 PM
The more wealthy people I know act and describe themselves as modest.

I think it's a bit of imposter syndrome.

 Yes, funny how they put themselves below where they really are.
Quote

I'm often frustrated by people who say work harder, work smarter....etc etc.   

I'm pretty sure the only reason I made it to the top 5% on a middle, middle class income was because I married an immigrant that was very frugal with a dollar, neither of us went to college, but our savings started the day we got married. The other luck I had was, I took a big interest in a radio talk show host that focused on investing in no-load mutual funds. I started listening in the very late 80s, and structured my work around Sat. and Sun. between 3PM and 6PM, just to be alone in the shop to listen to Bob Brinker, he was a big factor in me investing our savings.
Quote

Assuming all socia-economic factors were equalized there's still a huge variation in ability at a biological level. Simple things like self discipline, intelligence etc etc. 

Yes, 1/2 of the population is below average!

Yes Bob Brinker.  Loved his show.  The land of critical mass.  We've pretty much reached that now.   2023 we're done.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: iris lily on July 29, 2022, 07:27:36 AM
The more wealthy people I know act and describe themselves as modest.

I think it's a bit of imposter syndrome.

 Yes, funny how they put themselves below where they really are.
Quote

I'm often frustrated by people who say work harder, work smarter....etc etc.   

I'm pretty sure the only reason I made it to the top 5% on a middle, middle class income was because I married an immigrant that was very frugal with a dollar, neither of us went to college, but our savings started the day we got married. The other luck I had was, I took a big interest in a radio talk show host that focused on investing in no-load mutual funds. I started listening in the very late 80s, and structured my work around Sat. and Sun. between 3PM and 6PM, just to be alone in the shop to listen to Bob Brinker, he was a big factor in me investing our savings.
Quote

Assuming all socia-economic factors were equalized there's still a huge variation in ability at a biological level. Simple things like self discipline, intelligence etc etc. 

Yes, 1/2 of the population is below average!

I listened to Brinker back in the day. Can’t say that I ran out and invested in no load mutual funds though. But I did like his message. And as I think back, it was pure: invest in mutual funds, grow critical mass to FIRE.

A critical mass is fine though so we did OK and then we didn’t invest smartly early in those days, we did save a lot.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: lifeisshort123 on July 29, 2022, 03:10:34 PM
If I am lucky I will make it to top 7 percent in my field.

However, it amazes me how many spendthrifts I work with - many of whom who earn far less money than me.  Nearly everyone in my office’s plan is to work until they die and never retire.  Some are better than others about pretending it is their passion, but when you get them alone, many admit that it is because they have essentially nothing stashed for retirement.

I understood early on the importance of stashing away “something”.  I can’t say I have only made good financial decisions, there have been so many bad ones.  But I have to say, ALWAYS putting away “something”, no matter how rough things were, has really been a life raft more times than I can count.

I think Kyosaki calls it “paying yourself first”.  I don’t entirely subscribe to his theories though, as I’m not a big real estate guy, and he is much more open to debt and risk than I can stomach.  I get impatient paying things off at 0% interest even when I have the money to cover the expenses and am making money off the interest.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: LightStache on July 29, 2022, 09:17:16 PM
Aren't we all here because we're trying not to be in any income class?

Channeling Piketty, I'd say trying to replace labor income with capital income.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: TomTX on July 30, 2022, 12:23:34 PM
Require businesses to pay a decent living for all full time jobs and pro-rate part-time jobs.   Woo hoo!  Suddenly every person with a job can make ends meet and afford books for the kiddos.

Except that just feeds into inflation and increases the cost of everything while the government can collect more taxes.  I think the onerous demands on business are bad enough as it is with the current minimum wage requirements, or with needing to pay more to people that don't want to work while they live off the government dole.
Then drop CEO and manager and other highly paid people's wages to compensate for the extra costs.   Or pay lower dividends.   Or make lower profits.

No business that depends on its workers living in poverty deserves to exist -- ESPECIALLY if there's plenty of profits to hand to others who don't even work there.

Some types of businesses will fail because they are predicated on predatory labor treatment.   Good.    If people don't want to pay for the cost of goods that includes people not living in poverty to make them, then we are better off without those goods.

Other types of businesses will prosper.  And that's as it should be.

++ If your business can't afford to pay employees a decent wage, your business plan and/or execution is poor and you should do something else.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: TomTX on July 30, 2022, 12:24:46 PM
For income distribution I usually talk about quintiles. Lowest 20% corresponds to working class income (because "lower" class is pejorative), middle 60% corresponds to middle class income, and top 20% corresponds to upper class income.

IMO, if you're not FI, you're working class. You have to work.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: TomTX on July 30, 2022, 12:25:33 PM
Elon Musk had $0 of taxable income in 2020, so if we're only using incomes to determine this silly measuring then I'm way higher class than the wealthiest man on the planet! Take that Musk!

IIRC that was because he had overpaid the prior year's taxes.

I believe estimates of his 2021 taxes are around $12B.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Michael in ABQ on July 30, 2022, 01:07:05 PM
Based on the PEW calculator our household income would have to be $225,000 to be considered upper income tier in Albuquerque. However, that's with our family of 8. If I drop that down to the more typical family of 4 our income would only have to be $160,000. I think their calculator overestimates the marginal cost of additional kids - though I suppose if they build in the expectation of paying full college costs for every kid it would certainly add a significant amount.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Money Saver 1 on October 25, 2022, 05:14:42 AM
My family is generally middle class.  My mother made poor choices that led to a bump into a lower rung of the ladder, disadvantaging my siblings and I,  and then some more unfortunate events led to my expulsion to the lower classes but I'm almost completely out of that hole now and back into the middle class.  I'm much better than that.

According to this
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/upper-middle-class-definition/
Roughly half to 3/4 of my family is upper middle class.  No doctors or pilots or lawyers.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: GilesMM on October 25, 2022, 07:12:09 AM
It's really more a lifestyle. 

If you are chronically unemployed or paid hourly, homeless or rent month-to-month, under-educated you may be lower class.
If you have live-in servants, multiple homes, inherited exclusive private club memberships, and multi-generational land and wealth, sit on various profit and non-profit Boards, you may be upper class.

Everyone else is middle class.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 25, 2022, 08:20:30 AM
It's really more a lifestyle. 

If you are chronically unemployed or paid hourly, homeless or rent month-to-month, under-educated you may be lower class.
If you have live-in servants, multiple homes, inherited exclusive private club memberships, and multi-generational land and wealth, sit on various profit and non-profit Boards, you may be upper class.

Everyone else is middle class.

This has always kind of been MMM's whole point.

That you can spend A LOT of money and still be living a life that looks remarkably similar to someone who spends, say, only mid 5 figures each year.

I'm friends with a lot of very wealthy people, and everything they do is expensive, but yeah, for the most part it's still just crazy expensive versions of the same lifestyle that middle class folks live.

Without context cues as to *why* something costs 10-100 TIMES as much, it's actually kind of hard to distinguish from the outside why one person's ultra expensive lifestyle might actually cost that much more than a typical middle class lifestyle.

Like sure, anyone can tell that a pretty car is prettier than an ugly car, but unless you know cars, you wouldn't be able to tell just by looking at them why a certain pretty car costs as much as a house.

For example, my aunt and I both own summer homes. Hers is larger and more modern, mine is smaller, but an exquisitely maintained heritage home. Both have beautiful water views. Mine has more houses in the way, but the actual water view is much nicer, and the houses in the village add charm to the view, IMO.

Without knowing the reasons why real estate is so different in the two regions, no one from the outside would predict that my home is 86K and hers is 3-5M.

That said, there's no way I'm calling her "middle class" not when she's well into the 1% of wealth. Also, in my experience living among the ultra wealthy, a lot of those live-in-help, generational land types are actually a lot *less* wealthy than their newer wealth counterparts because many of the old wealth estates erode with every generation.

There are some families that have billions with chateaus next to families that *used to* have billions and living very similar lifestyles despite radically different levels of wealth.

And because their wealth is usually so frickin' hidden, it's hard to even say which family is which, especially with their penchant for making their kids financially fend for themselves until they inherit.

I've even seen multiple cases where the wealth is hidden from the kids. So they have no idea if they're going to inherit an enormous fortune or if they'll inherit an albatross of family land drowning in debt. It's like inheritance Russian roulette.

It can actually be very difficult to assess just how wealthy someone is based on their lifestyle, even when you know the context cues.

What you *can* reasonably decipher, if you know the cues, is what type of wealth the person wants you to perceive.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: SESW Tech on October 26, 2022, 07:27:42 AM
Like many I struggle with the definition of Upper Class. We’re in the top 1% for both income and NW. Some years even the top 0.1% for income, our NW is probably there for our age. We own some kuxury goods (beach house, international vacations) but not others (fly coach, no luxury cars, public schools).  I certainly would nevercall ourselves upper class, but I wonder if that’s just that everyone defines “rich” as “people with three times as much money as me.”
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Laura33 on October 26, 2022, 08:47:27 AM
I think it's more seeing people with "nicer" things than him and realizing that if he wanted to for example, go buy a Tesla Model S tomorrow it would become a budget line item he couldn't just ignore.

If you make $600K and can't go out and buy a Tesla at the drop of a hat, you're spending too much on other stuff.

Unless (a) you have massive student loans, or (b) you're trying to live in Manhattan/SF/San Jose.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Arbitrage on October 26, 2022, 09:13:37 AM
It's really more a lifestyle. 

If you are chronically unemployed or paid hourly, homeless or rent month-to-month, under-educated you may be lower class.
If you have live-in servants, multiple homes, inherited exclusive private club memberships, and multi-generational land and wealth, sit on various profit and non-profit Boards, you may be upper class.

Everyone else is middle class.

That said, there's no way I'm calling her "middle class" not when she's well into the 1% of wealth. Also, in my experience living among the ultra wealthy, a lot of those live-in-help, generational land types are actually a lot *less* wealthy than their newer wealth counterparts because many of the old wealth estates erode with every generation.

I agree that the concept that it's more of a lifestyle that determines one's class rather than income.  However, as with Malcat, my bar is far lower than the 'old money' bogey for calling someone upper class. 

My rich friends with fancy houses, fancy cars, fancy vacations with first-class travel, many types of servants (who don't live in the house), no money concerns, etc. are absolutely upper class to me.  I think it's facile to lump those sorts of people together with those who are grinding away at a median-income career and worried about their car breaking down.  Everyone wants to think of themselves as middle class, or upper middle class.  I just can't call 1 percenters (use whatever threshold you want) middle class, regardless of their spending choices.  Maybe they don't fit the 'old world aristocracy' ideal, but that's not my specific determinant for class.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: GilesMM on October 26, 2022, 09:26:22 AM
...

My rich friends with fancy houses, fancy cars, fancy vacations with first-class travel, many types of servants (who don't live in the house), no money concerns, etc. are absolutely upper class to me.  I think it's facile to lump those sorts of people together with those who are grinding away at a median-income career and worried about their car breaking down.  Everyone wants to think of themselves as middle class, or upper middle class.  I just can't call 1 percenters (use whatever threshold you want) middle class, regardless of their spending choices.  Maybe they don't fit the 'old world aristocracy' ideal, but that's not my specific determinant for class.

The threshold for 1% net worth is fairly low - around $10 million.  With a bit of real estate and savings for future spending that really doesn't go that far these days, especially if you have a couple kids.  I consider almost everyone at this level middle class as most are paying lots of bills for housing, taxes, vehicles, travel.    These people are not buying a Rolls-Royce or flying via NetJets.  If a net worth for upper class exists in the US today, it is certainly more than $100 million and possibly closer to $1 billion.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Morning Glory on October 26, 2022, 09:33:21 AM
...

My rich friends with fancy houses, fancy cars, fancy vacations with first-class travel, many types of servants (who don't live in the house), no money concerns, etc. are absolutely upper class to me.  I think it's facile to lump those sorts of people together with those who are grinding away at a median-income career and worried about their car breaking down.  Everyone wants to think of themselves as middle class, or upper middle class.  I just can't call 1 percenters (use whatever threshold you want) middle class, regardless of their spending choices.  Maybe they don't fit the 'old world aristocracy' ideal, but that's not my specific determinant for class.

The threshold for 1% net worth is fairly low - around $10 million.  With a bit of real estate and savings for future spending that really doesn't go that far these days, especially if you have a couple kids.  I consider almost everyone at this level middle class as most are paying lots of bills for housing, taxes, vehicles, travel.    These people are not buying a Rolls-Royce or flying via NetJets.  If a net worth for upper class exists in the US today, it is certainly more than $100 million and possibly closer to $1 billion.

10 million supports a 400k/year spend. If you think that is middle class you are insane. How do they have lots of bills? If they aren't  in a mega-hcol area they could pay cash for a new house and car every year and still have some left over. Even in an hcol they have way more than almost everyone else
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: simonsez on October 26, 2022, 09:38:33 AM
Like many I struggle with the definition of Upper Class. We’re in the top 1% for both income and NW. Some years even the top 0.1% for income, our NW is probably there for our age. We own some kuxury goods (beach house, international vacations) but not others (fly coach, no luxury cars, public schools).  I certainly would nevercall ourselves upper class, but I wonder if that’s just that everyone defines “rich” as “people with three times as much money as me.”
Why is it a struggle to define?  It doesn't define YOU and plenty of experts have already put in the work.  I'd just go with whatever income or wealth classification that you line up with and not think twice about it (outside of trivial places like this thread).  Or if you don't care at all, that's even better but I suspect that can't be the case by virtue of posting in this thread. 

Why would you never call yourselves that?  Not saying anyone "should" or "needs to" at all, merely a curiosity.  In the US we typically just make this about the $ amount in terms of a percentile and not like a social stratifier (like "class" really means) or anything that has consequences.  Maybe "upper income class" would be more accurate but would mean the same thing.  You already recognize your income and wealth are upper income class standards but you are stumbling over the label.  The good news is that it doesn't matter!

I feel incredibly rich at the 85th percentile for hh income, 86th for NW by age, 76th for overall NW, both adults have advanced degrees, both adults have jobs that require degrees.  Most sociologist and economists call that upper middle so that's what I call it.  Does that mean we can buy anything we want in a moment's notice?  No, of course not.  I feel rich mainly because in the historical context of humans, what I'm able to do at the push of a button, the lift of a lever, the harnessing of water and electricity, etc. all while enjoying immense safety from the environment is pretty incredible.  I only have to go back two generations in my family to encounter dirt floors, no college education, summers spent sleeping on the front porch, etc. and I refuse to forget that and appreciate how freaking awesome life is today.  I mean, monarchs up until the mid/late 20th Century do not live as well as we do now.  We largely do what we want but many things require a budget and many years of planning/saving.  I suspect this would be true even if my household's income was 3x larger, but if that level of income or wealth was deemed 'upper class', okay, then I'd be upper class. 

Also, as far as luxury cars, I tell my wife all the time how luxurious our Accord feels.  Every new vehicle is so nice and has sheer wizardry integrated throughout!
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Laura33 on October 26, 2022, 09:41:13 AM
And I do look down at the preventable poor, much like we facepunch folks here for poor choices.

***Note:  rant below is in response to a whole collection of posts, not just this one* * *

The problem is that we often cannot tell what is "preventable" and what is not.  My brother has every outside appearance of what is needed to succeed -- UMC parents, degree from a good college, very personable, intelligent, etc.  He also suffers crippling anxiety and depression that makes it impossible for him to deal with the stress that comes with most high-pay jobs -- and the US as a whole is absolutely atrocious at providing medical insurance to get him the treatment he needs to function.  Around the age of 40, he got very lucky:  he found a position at a bakery that allows him to work largely on his own, and the bakery pays for the healthcare he needs to keep that depression/anxiety under control.  To the outside world, he looks like an underachieving slacker; to those of us who know his struggle, we're absolutely over the moon to see him living a functional life, even if he will never move out of his mom's basement.

Financial success is very much like maintaining a healthy weight:  almost everyone knows what we need to do, and yet the obesity rate continues to skyrocket.  We all know how effective fat-shaming is at promoting weight loss.  So why the fuck would smart people assume that poor-shaming will somehow provide the incentive to do all those things that they've already demonstrated they can't do?  All that does is give us justification to turn our backs, because it's their own damn fault, and making excuses for them is enabling more bad behavior, etc. etc. etc.

IMO any kind of success is a balance of factors we control (hard work, effort, deferred gratification, etc.) and factors we do not (luck, genetics).  From the outside, I worked my way up from food-stamps-level poor to the 1%.  It would be super easy to pat myself on the back for all my hard work and diligence.  And yet I don't get to do so exclusively.  Because I happened to go to school during the Great Society years, when the government was implementing programs to identify smart, poor kids like me and give them educational enrichment -- and I happened to go to school when Title IX came in and doors were starting to open for women.  Because I'm a WASP and thus only had to deal with sexism, not racial or religious or cultural discrimination. Because those food stamps allowed my mom to get her Ph.D and ultimately a stable job.  Because even though my parents divorced when I was young and my mom was a single mom who struggled for a number of years, both of my parents valued my education above all else.  Not one of those things was under my control.  But they were all necessary to earn me those "qualifications" needed to get those plentiful high-pay jobs that another poster referred to.  One link in that chain breaks, and I'm just another bright misfit.  Oh:  and when I myself descended into a major depression, I had health insurance that covered my psychiatrist and prescriptions, and a very understanding employer who basically let me go dark for months without firing me. 

Because success comes from a combination of things we control and things we don't, any solution has to provide both incentives for those good characteristics and support for those things that are out of our control.  For example, a statistic I heard a number of years ago was that 50% of personal bankruptcies were driven by medical bills.  Why the fuck does a civilized, wealthy society allow that to happen?  People should have medical insurance and access to healthcare, because they cannot reach their potential* when they are sick or drowned in hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical costs.  And why the fuck are schools funded out of property taxes, which ensures that the rich schools get richer and the poor ones get screwed?  It is an obvious outgrowth of redlining -- of not wanting all that lovely WASP money to go to those uppity poor Black folks.  And yet it is entrenched into our society to the point that we've all anchored to that approach as "normal," and any suggestion of change gets the folks who have the loudest voices (i.e., those with money) up in arms (to protect their own kids, of course). 

IMO, our first priority should be fixing basic problems like these that guarantee that a significant portion of the population starts behind the 8-ball.  It's not even so much about making things better -- it's stopping actively fucking people over because of things entirely out of their control (first rule of holes:  when you're in one, stop digging).  If/when we do that and people are still not taking advantage of the opportunities before them, then we can blame them for their own laziness.

tl;dr:  Hard work and discipline is necessary but not sufficient.  To give ourselves full credit for our own success is sheer hubris -- as is assuming we can accurately identify the challenges others face that lead to superficially poor decisions.


*I do strongly agree with your point that the appropriate approach is to want people to do the best they can given their particular situations and constraints. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 26, 2022, 10:27:32 AM
Like many I struggle with the definition of Upper Class. We’re in the top 1% for both income and NW. Some years even the top 0.1% for income, our NW is probably there for our age. We own some kuxury goods (beach house, international vacations) but not others (fly coach, no luxury cars, public schools).  I certainly would nevercall ourselves upper class, but I wonder if that’s just that everyone defines “rich” as “people with three times as much money as me.”
Why is it a struggle to define?  It doesn't define YOU and plenty of experts have already put in the work.  I'd just go with whatever income or wealth classification that you line up with and not think twice about it (outside of trivial places like this thread).  Or if you don't care at all, that's even better but I suspect that can't be the case by virtue of posting in this thread. 

Why would you never call yourselves that?  Not saying anyone "should" or "needs to" at all, merely a curiosity.  In the US we typically just make this about the $ amount in terms of a percentile and not like a social stratifier (like "class" really means) or anything that has consequences.  Maybe "upper income class" would be more accurate but would mean the same thing.  You already recognize your income and wealth are upper income class standards but you are stumbling over the label.  The good news is that it doesn't matter!

I feel incredibly rich at the 85th percentile for hh income, 86th for NW by age, 76th for overall NW, both adults have advanced degrees, both adults have jobs that require degrees.  Most sociologist and economists call that upper middle so that's what I call it.  Does that mean we can buy anything we want in a moment's notice?  No, of course not.  I feel rich mainly because in the historical context of humans, what I'm able to do at the push of a button, the lift of a lever, the harnessing of water and electricity, etc. all while enjoying immense safety from the environment is pretty incredible.  I only have to go back two generations in my family to encounter dirt floors, no college education, summers spent sleeping on the front porch, etc. and I refuse to forget that and appreciate how freaking awesome life is today.  I mean, monarchs up until the mid/late 20th Century do not live as well as we do now.  We largely do what we want but many things require a budget and many years of planning/saving.  I suspect this would be true even if my household's income was 3x larger, but if that level of income or wealth was deemed 'upper class', okay, then I'd be upper class. 

Also, as far as luxury cars, I tell my wife all the time how luxurious our Accord feels.  Every new vehicle is so nice and has sheer wizardry integrated throughout!

The truth is that "class" doesn't really have any meaning anymore.

It's an old aristocratic concept that the meritocrats have been half-adopting and half-rejecting since they took over.

We kind of use it as a proxy for wealth and income and we kind of still use it to define lifestyles that used to be associated with the aristocracy, which is kind of hilarious since the financial upper class are now in that category because of their industry and the hallmarks of the aristocrats were social norms that emphasized heavily that they DIDN'T work.

So in this godawful mishmash of conflicting values, there is no real definition of what upper class even means.

Weirdly, the middle class has this strange fetishism about old school aristocratic values, which I often find disturbing. It's found in the denigration of "new money" and statements like "real wealth doesn't shout, it whispers" and the veneration of old school aristocratic interests like playing classical instruments and reading classic literature and belonging to tennis clubs, which as I said, were all the kind of hallmarks of the aristocratic class who specifically did them to demonstrate that they dedicated their time to leisure and not to work.

And traditional middle class hobbies are looked down on in comparison, for really no reason other than historical aristocratic snobbery that has been half-adopted into the social discourse as still being "superior" despite it representing the opposite of our meritocratic values.

It's just a cluster fuck of historical snobbery combined with modern meritocratic snobbery where basically no one is ever good enough and no one can win.

Which is why everyone feels like they're middle class, because when you can't win the game, you feel like you're always losing.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Villanelle on October 26, 2022, 10:51:42 AM
I think by most definitions, we are upper middle class.  Sometimes I feel like we live with we are upper, upper middle class, but if I compare spending or the value of specific things (our cars vs. "their" cars; my handbag vs. their handbag, etc.), then we probably look middle class by most regards. 

From the outside, I'm not sure if we look "higher" than we are, or "lower".  Other than our obnoxiously large house (chose, despite being 2x the size we need, because it was actually cheaper and a closer commute than anything else we could find), I suppose people might think we are struggling a bit since our cars are modest, we don't have designer Anything, don't have a housekeeper, etc.  But if they look closer, them might see that we also rarely even talk or think about daily finances, and when we want something, we just buy it, so maybe that looks wealthier than we are.

I remember being a teenager, when fitting in really, really mattered, and noticing that we had the least-nice cars in the neighborhood.  They weren't crappy:  probably 2-6 year old Toyotas, instead of the new Mercedes and BMWs everyone else had.  Did the neighborhood think we were struggling or living in a house/ neighborhood above our means? Maybe.  But looking back I realize that my family likely had a higher net worth and far, far more security than at least 90% of them. 

And this touches on one part of this conversation that I find so interesting:  What actually defines these classes, and what outward signals might we be misinterpreting when we assess someone's position.  The family in the expensive neighborhood with expensive cars very well could have negative net worth; the family with modest everything could well be multi-millionaires.  And is a family that makes $350k and spends $360k upper middle class (or even upper class)? 

There are so many indicators beyond income or even net worth. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 26, 2022, 11:03:52 AM
I think by most definitions, we are upper middle class.  Sometimes I feel like we live with we are upper, upper middle class, but if I compare spending or the value of specific things (our cars vs. "their" cars; my handbag vs. their handbag, etc.), then we probably look middle class by most regards. 

From the outside, I'm not sure if we look "higher" than we are, or "lower".  Other than our obnoxiously large house (chose, despite being 2x the size we need, because it was actually cheaper and a closer commute than anything else we could find), I suppose people might think we are struggling a bit since our cars are modest, we don't have designer Anything, don't have a housekeeper, etc.  But if they look closer, them might see that we also rarely even talk or think about daily finances, and when we want something, we just buy it, so maybe that looks wealthier than we are.

I remember being a teenager, when fitting in really, really mattered, and noticing that we had the least-nice cars in the neighborhood.  They weren't crappy:  probably 2-6 year old Toyotas, instead of the new Mercedes and BMWs everyone else had.  Did the neighborhood think we were struggling or living in a house/ neighborhood above our means? Maybe.  But looking back I realize that my family likely had a higher net worth and far, far more security than at least 90% of them. 

And this touches on one part of this conversation that I find so interesting:  What actually defines these classes, and what outward signals might we be misinterpreting when we assess someone's position.  The family in the expensive neighborhood with expensive cars very well could have negative net worth; the family with modest everything could well be multi-millionaires.  And is a family that makes $350k and spends $360k upper middle class (or even upper class)? 



And half of them are nonsense where most people don't even understand *why* they are signifiers of "class".
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: GilesMM on October 26, 2022, 11:23:49 AM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Cassie on October 26, 2022, 11:40:50 AM
Laura, you are right that people with disabilities often get left behind economically. I am glad that your brother is doing well.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Villanelle on October 26, 2022, 12:23:08 PM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV  But not an SUV, and then a Korean small SUV that's 7 years old)
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines

U - private aircraft

Boats  NONE
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service Occasional lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch
, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service

U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure walking, reading, board and card games, playing with our dogs
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

By these metrics, it looks like DH and I are middle or lower middle class.  But our income and net worth suggest otherwise. 

I think there are other categories you could add, like brand of handbag for women (Target, thrift store >$50; department store >$200, designer bags that can be $30k+), types of clothing and brands, etc.  Or education (high school diploma, GED, or no diploma, undergraduate degree, graduate)  But again, but all those standards except education (DH completed grad school and I have some grad school credits), DH and I come out lower than I think is reality. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on October 26, 2022, 02:00:54 PM
We’re in the top 1% for both income and NW. Some years even the top 0.1% for income, our NW is probably there for our age.......... I certainly would nevercall ourselves upper class

Hahahah, thank you for the comic relief.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 26, 2022, 02:04:39 PM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

I know a few billionaires who don't qualify as "upper" class according to your particular metrics.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: simonsez on October 26, 2022, 02:29:51 PM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

I know a few billionaires who don't qualify as "upper" class according to your particular metrics.
Sure, that's bound to happen but like, who cares?  Would those billionaires really care that they're not labeled as upper class by an anonymous member on an internet forum?  Or would they?  If so, why? 

If we're (or a group of qualified experts who are) trying to define class by activities, behaviors, and other similarities of its constituents, it makes sense to have rich lower class people and even poor upper class people.

If we're (or a group of qualified experts who are) trying to define class by simple income/wealth percentiles, then you just are what the numbers say you are and it should have zero effect on activities or behavior. 

Just need to be clear about how one is qualifying/quantifying it.

Numbers are fun, so are various qualitative lists.  It's all just for fun.  In a scenario where a billionaire is considered to be lower class for whatever reason and somehow that affects their life in a negative/serious way, I'd recommend they re-evaluate how their life is setup and who/what they surround themselves with.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: StarBright on October 26, 2022, 03:09:02 PM
This thread is making me think of my grandmother (who grew up sharecropping) who would say "I may be poor, but I'm not low-class."
 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Villanelle on October 26, 2022, 03:13:44 PM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

I know a few billionaires who don't qualify as "upper" class according to your particular metrics.
Sure, that's bound to happen but like, who cares?  Would those billionaires really care that they're not labeled as upper class by an anonymous member on an internet forum?  Or would they?  If so, why? 

If we're (or a group of qualified experts who are) trying to define class by activities, behaviors, and other similarities of its constituents, it makes sense to have rich lower class people and even poor upper class people.

If we're (or a group of qualified experts who are) trying to define class by simple income/wealth percentiles, then you just are what the numbers say you are and it should have zero effect on activities or behavior. 

Just need to be clear about how one is qualifying/quantifying it.

Numbers are fun, so are various qualitative lists.  It's all just for fun.  In a scenario where a billionaire is considered to be lower class for whatever reason and somehow that affects their life in a negative/serious way, I'd recommend they re-evaluate how their life is setup and who/what they surround themselves with.

Well, why would anyone care where they fall individually?  To me, the point is to have meaningful metrics for the conversation, and if many  (most) people that we intuitively know are category A fall into Category B or C based on a proposed definition, then it seems pretty clear that the definition or metric is off and needs more work. 

An occasional outlier isn't problematic.  That person who lives in a palatial mansion that they inherited, but lives pay-check to paycheck, makes minimum wage, and has no money in the bank?  Fine, we don't need to worry too much about them because there aren't enough of them to be statistically relevant.  But when you have almost as many people who fall outside of where it seems they should be as who fall inside--almost as many outliers as there are conformers, it's not a successful metric. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 26, 2022, 03:26:50 PM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

I know a few billionaires who don't qualify as "upper" class according to your particular metrics.
Sure, that's bound to happen but like, who cares?  Would those billionaires really care that they're not labeled as upper class by an anonymous member on an internet forum?  Or would they?  If so, why? 

If we're (or a group of qualified experts who are) trying to define class by activities, behaviors, and other similarities of its constituents, it makes sense to have rich lower class people and even poor upper class people.

If we're (or a group of qualified experts who are) trying to define class by simple income/wealth percentiles, then you just are what the numbers say you are and it should have zero effect on activities or behavior. 

Just need to be clear about how one is qualifying/quantifying it.

Numbers are fun, so are various qualitative lists.  It's all just for fun.  In a scenario where a billionaire is considered to be lower class for whatever reason and somehow that affects their life in a negative/serious way, I'd recommend they re-evaluate how their life is setup and who/what they surround themselves with.

Lol, that was kind of my point, and the point I made in several previous posts. The lifestyle indicators of class are kind of a messy combo of indicators of spending and old holdover indicators of aristocracy.

It's fucking weird
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: GilesMM on October 26, 2022, 09:22:45 PM


Numbers are fun, so are various qualitative lists.  It's all just for fun.  In a scenario where a billionaire is considered to be lower class for whatever reason and somehow that affects their life in a negative/serious way, I'd recommend they re-evaluate how their life is setup and who/what they surround themselves with.

No sure about billionaires but probably some pro athletes and entertainers who live lower class lifestyles despite high net worth and income. Maybe wee need more categories.

Occupation
L - laborer, hourly worker
M - salaried worker, state leader
U - business owner, fed level leader

Industry
L - trades, services, local politics
M - corporation EVP and below, retail, education, research, IT, web, entertainment, sports, state politics, house of reps
U - finance, law, national politics (Pres, Senate), Supreme Court, Fortune 100 CEOs

Education
L - none up to trade school, 2-year college
M - any advanced degree
U - MBA, Law, possibly medicine

School
L - private religious schools, home schooling, local/community college
M - public schools, any four-year college
U - boarding school, prep-school, Yale/Harvard, Oxford/Cambridge

Influence
L - family and social group
M - city or region
U - national and global
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: simonsez on October 27, 2022, 09:21:08 AM


Numbers are fun, so are various qualitative lists.  It's all just for fun.  In a scenario where a billionaire is considered to be lower class for whatever reason and somehow that affects their life in a negative/serious way, I'd recommend they re-evaluate how their life is setup and who/what they surround themselves with.

No sure about billionaires but probably some pro athletes and entertainers who live lower class lifestyles despite high net worth and income. Maybe wee need more categories.

Occupation
L - laborer, hourly worker
M - salaried worker, state leader
U - business owner, fed level leader

Industry
L - trades, services, local politics
M - corporation EVP and below, retail, education, research, IT, web, entertainment, sports, state politics, house of reps
U - finance, law, national politics (Pres, Senate), Supreme Court, Fortune 100 CEOs

Education
L - none up to trade school, 2-year college
M - any advanced degree
U - MBA, Law, possibly medicine

School
L - private religious schools, home schooling, local/community college
M - public schools, any four-year college
U - boarding school, prep-school, Yale/Harvard, Oxford/Cambridge

Influence
L - family and social group
M - city or region
U - national and global
Can you expand on that?

How is the athlete who chooses to go bowling where they drink the low class swill known as beer in their leisure time negatively affected because they aren't playing tennis at the private country club?
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 27, 2022, 02:40:43 PM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

I know a few billionaires who don't qualify as "upper" class according to your particular metrics.

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mizzourah2006 on October 27, 2022, 08:11:27 PM
Damn, if that's the list I'm barely middle class.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: teen persuasion on October 28, 2022, 06:07:23 PM
Damn, if that's the list I'm barely middle class.
Yeah, I'm barely represented on that list; in most of the categories I'm N/A.  In the few we do hit, we cross several levels.

Even in the housing options, we aren't on the list w/ owning a 180 year old house on 2 acres in the country.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Radagast on October 28, 2022, 09:50:54 PM
I am not sure if looking at income by population percentile is a good way to look at class. Population percentiles are a population phenomenon, but class is a wealth phenomenon. If you want to examine the population look at the horizontal axis, but if you want to examine wealth you need to look at the vertical axis. Most people pay attention to the horizontal axis, but most wealth pays attention to the vertical. Are you trying to learn about the lifestyle of the median person, or the person who owns the median dollar? They are very different people.

My observation is that the NCAA college basketball tournament is an excellent model of our economic system. It perfectly integrates the effects of luck and skill into a winner-takes-all single elimination tournament in a fashion which is very similar to reality. Is the 37th best team out of 64 teams considered a middling team in March Madness? No, they are losers who went out in the first round. A middling team made the sweet sixteen. In the tournament, those teams losing the first round (50%) are lower class, those losing the next day (50-75%) are lower-middle class, those losing in the sweet sixteen (75-88%) are middle class, those losing the elite eight (88-94%) are upper-middle class, and only the final four are upper class. The tournament is judged on the vertical scale of how far into it a team advanced. Our economic system is even more extreme than that.

It is more like the Pareto Distribution, which was invented to approximate human economic behaviour. In the Pareto Distribution the wealthiest 20% own 80% of wealth. The wealthiest 20% of those 20% own 80% of that 80% (wealthiest 4% owns 64% of wealth). And so on. The wealthiest 0.001% own 20% of wealth according to Pareto. Is measuring the population by quintiles really the best way to examine this system? Our income distribution isn’t quite as extreme as Pareto, probably because of redistributive government policies.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportseconomics.org%2Fuploads%2F2%2F1%2F9%2F8%2F21985128%2F2550356_orig.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a2d35f49f783652329712e9fd0c8c6c8adee6387510f50d7c12d5d617d795b6f&ipo=images)

I think class in the economic system we have is better examined by a 10-round NCAA tournament model. The losers of the first two rounds are lower class, the next two rounds are lower-middle, the winners of the top two rounds are upper class, etc. It looks like this.

Radagast Wealth-Based (10-Round Tournament) Model of Class
lower         | low-mid      | middle         | up-mid        | upper            |Class
10%  20%  |30%  40%   |50%   60%   |70%   80%   |90%  100%   |wealth decile
50%  25%  |13%  6.3%  |3.1%  1.6%  |0.8%  0.4%  |0.2%  0.00% |top of population percentile

In this model the bottom 75% of all people are lower class, while upper class starts at the top 0.4%.

By contrast, here is what population-based data looks like and it is a lot less extreme.
10%        20%       30%       40%       50%        60%       70%         80%        90%         population decile
$15,640  $28,002  $40,501  $54,945  $70,181  $89,673  $113,191  $149,212  $212,110  income

It makes no sense for a person who is richer than 97% of all people to claim to be middle class in a population-based model. But in a wealth-based model it makes perfect sense: half of all money is owned by wealthier people, and half of all money is owned by poorer people.

It sort of makes sense for my household too. As an engineer and a nurse we are clearly an upper-income income household. But by occupation we design sewers and wipe poo, which are hardly upper class activities. Which makes sense in this context because by wealth we are lower-middle class. Upper class is someone who owns a company of 200 such individuals. I can easily imagine the lifestyle of the lower class because they are in line in front of me in the grocery store, and likewise they can imagine me because they see me. In fact most of my friends and coworkers are lower class by assets, and the main reason I advanced to the lower-middle class is because I found this website and forum. I cannot imagine the lifestyle of the upper class because I have never encountered them.

So my answer is that class is a wealth phenomenon determined by dividing the population according to quintiles of wealth. Those who own the bottom quintile of wealth are lower class, the middle class owns the middle quintile, and the upper class owns the top quintile. I think this is numerically consistent from a historical standpoint where upper class was a local lord and his immediate family, a dozen people among many thousand. Upper middle were merchants and millers, middle was smiths and other occupations that ended up as last names, lower middle were leaders of small groups, and most people were just bodies in the lower classes.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: GilesMM on October 29, 2022, 07:02:28 AM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: BicycleB on October 29, 2022, 08:11:53 AM
Bravo @Malcat, @GilesMM, @Radagast for very illuminating comments.

-signed, Sociology Minded (middle class?)
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 29, 2022, 09:38:02 AM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

You're equating Catholicism with upper class????

Yeah...n'ah...
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Villanelle on October 29, 2022, 10:01:52 AM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

It says a lot that non-Christians are entirely left out of this model, since even though Christ or Christianity aren't mentioned at all, these are very clearly references to Christian services. 

Given the elitist, tone-deaf vibe of all these categories, that's not surprising. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: BicycleB on October 29, 2022, 10:30:00 AM
One of the ways of viewing class is that of the old school English-derived WASP. The poster in question sounds like someone in complete good faith who is summarizing that view. However tone deaf it may be to those us who have another view of class, it's a view that exists - and reflects a real life group that actually has been upper class historically by almost any standard. In that sense, it's a worthwhile addition to the discussion. Personally he said at least three things I'd never heard because I don't know enough people from that group.

Fwiw, note that the poster has joined our forum, probably not something that is on the approved list of activities from his apparent class background. He might well be here as part of a personal project of growing away from his roots. I'm willing to cut him slack on tone deafness; pretty sure he means well.

Not arguing the tone deafness isn't there, though. I agree it's part of the elitist vibe, but what else are you going to get from someone from the elite?

I say, welcome to our new elite friend. :)

(No one has to agree with him, I just think it's interesting and he's a person too.)
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: BicycleB on October 29, 2022, 11:07:34 AM
One of the ways of viewing class is that of the old school English-derived WASP. The poster in question sounds like someone in complete good faith who is summarizing that view. However tone deaf it may be to those us who have another view of class, it's a view that exists - and reflects a real life group that actually has been upper class historically by almost any standard. In that sense, it's a worthwhile addition to the discussion. Personally he said at least three things I'd never heard because I don't know enough people from that group.

Fwiw, note that the poster has joined our forum, probably not something that is on the approved list of activities from his apparent class background. He might well be here as part of a personal project of growing away from his roots. I'm willing to cut him slack on tone deafness; pretty sure he means well.

Not arguing the tone deafness isn't there, though. I agree it's part of the elitist vibe, but what else are you going to get from someone from the elite?

I say, welcome to our new elite friend. :)

(No one has to agree with him, I just think it's interesting and he's a person too.)
@BicycleB you're a much nicer more forgiving person then me ;-). I agree all points of view are important but it's hard for me to get beyond the stereotyping in this day and age. I wonder if the same level of stereotyping would be acceptable if it was written about race or gender etc rather than social class or income class lifestyle behaviors. I'm just curious if @GilesMM actually believes what he wrote or is just having fun.

Hi, @spartana. Re bolded - mostly not, imho. But so far is about behavior. Anyway thanks for the kind words!
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Villanelle on October 29, 2022, 11:56:04 AM
One of the ways of viewing class is that of the old school English-derived WASP. The poster in question sounds like someone in complete good faith who is summarizing that view. However tone deaf it may be to those us who have another view of class, it's a view that exists - and reflects a real life group that actually has been upper class historically by almost any standard. In that sense, it's a worthwhile addition to the discussion. Personally he said at least three things I'd never heard because I don't know enough people from that group.

Fwiw, note that the poster has joined our forum, probably not something that is on the approved list of activities from his apparent class background. He might well be here as part of a personal project of growing away from his roots. I'm willing to cut him slack on tone deafness; pretty sure he means well.

Not arguing the tone deafness isn't there, though. I agree it's part of the elitist vibe, but what else are you going to get from someone from the elite?

I say, welcome to our new elite friend. :)

(No one has to agree with him, I just think it's interesting and he's a person too.)

Sure, if we want to view things through the lens of old school WASPyness, I'd say his "U" categories do that quite nicely.  But his M and L still fail to account for large swaths of the population, so it's hard to argue they don't fail to effectively categorize people.  That's different from disagreeing with that categories.  So my point was more than in his world, only Christians (for example) even exist.  The atheists and Jews and Muslims and everyone else don't even exist to be categorized, or there is an implicit "Other" , U, M, L, (O).  If that's not myopic, at the very least, I don't know what is. 

Someone who drink sochu and vacations in Asia (or Africa)?  O.   Non Christian?  O.  Live in a multi-family home with several generations?  O.    Because sure, he only mentioned "behaviors" but race, or race-related culture, is implicit in many of those behaviors.  And even some gender biases as well, since some of his categories are for stereotypically male thing-a-ma-jigs (boats and cars), but none of the wealth or class markers more associated with women (fancy handbags and shoes, cosmetic surgery or procedures, I guess) are covered. (Those things also apply to men, especially men in upper classes, just as cars or boats can apply to women, but since we are supposedly just going with "traditional class markers", then it seems women were forgotten on the list.  So again, there's implicit bias, and not just toward "class", but toward race, culture, and gender. 

It's not just elitist.  It's bigoted.  Sure, he's a person, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't call out pretty offensive, glaring, problematic holes in his "logic".  Especially when his approach to something fails to do exactly what he seems to want it to do--categorize more or less everyone.  If he wants to categorize white, Christian, Anglo people, maybe he's done an adequate job though, so I guess there's that.   If he's just elitist, then he may benefit from understanding the implications of what he's saying and how they are both offensive conceptually and  ineffective as a way of categorizing all or even most people. We all have blind spots and we all benefit from having them pointed out to us, especially when they are dangerously large.  If he's actually a bigot, then I still feel pretty darn okay with pointing that out.

Oh, and despite his categories suggesting otherwise, I actually fall in pretty clearly in the U or U/M categories to most people looking in.  I'm an upper middle class white girls, whose family didn't live ostentatiously, but who had money, especially in my later childhood.  My dad was a C-level worker, though for a government entity.  I had tennis lessons as a kid.  We lived in "owned typical suburban homes", etc.  So it isn't as though I'm objecting because I'm left out in some way as an "O".  Not really.  The fact that his categories don't really capture me means they just suck at doing what they are trying to do. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 29, 2022, 01:53:40 PM
One of the ways of viewing class is that of the old school English-derived WASP. The poster in question sounds like someone in complete good faith who is summarizing that view. However tone deaf it may be to those us who have another view of class, it's a view that exists - and reflects a real life group that actually has been upper class historically by almost any standard. In that sense, it's a worthwhile addition to the discussion. Personally he said at least three things I'd never heard because I don't know enough people from that group.

Fwiw, note that the poster has joined our forum, probably not something that is on the approved list of activities from his apparent class background. He might well be here as part of a personal project of growing away from his roots. I'm willing to cut him slack on tone deafness; pretty sure he means well.

Not arguing the tone deafness isn't there, though. I agree it's part of the elitist vibe, but what else are you going to get from someone from the elite?

I say, welcome to our new elite friend. :)

(No one has to agree with him, I just think it's interesting and he's a person too.)

Sure, if we want to view things through the lens of old school WASPyness, I'd say his "U" categories do that quite nicely.  But his M and L still fail to account for large swaths of the population, so it's hard to argue they don't fail to effectively categorize people.  That's different from disagreeing with that categories.  So my point was more than in his world, only Christians (for example) even exist.  The atheists and Jews and Muslims and everyone else don't even exist to be categorized, or there is an implicit "Other" , U, M, L, (O).  If that's not myopic, at the very least, I don't know what is. 

Someone who drink sochu and vacations in Asia (or Africa)?  O.   Non Christian?  O.  Live in a multi-family home with several generations?  O.    Because sure, he only mentioned "behaviors" but race, or race-related culture, is implicit in many of those behaviors.  And even some gender biases as well, since some of his categories are for stereotypically male thing-a-ma-jigs (boats and cars), but none of the wealth or class markers more associated with women (fancy handbags and shoes, cosmetic surgery or procedures, I guess) are covered. (Those things also apply to men, especially men in upper classes, just as cars or boats can apply to women, but since we are supposedly just going with "traditional class markers", then it seems women were forgotten on the list.  So again, there's implicit bias, and not just toward "class", but toward race, culture, and gender. 

It's not just elitist.  It's bigoted.  Sure, he's a person, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't call out pretty offensive, glaring, problematic holes in his "logic".  Especially when his approach to something fails to do exactly what he seems to want it to do--categorize more or less everyone.  If he wants to categorize white, Christian, Anglo people, maybe he's done an adequate job though, so I guess there's that.   If he's just elitist, then he may benefit from understanding the implications of what he's saying and how they are both offensive conceptually and  ineffective as a way of categorizing all or even most people. We all have blind spots and we all benefit from having them pointed out to us, especially when they are dangerously large.  If he's actually a bigot, then I still feel pretty darn okay with pointing that out.

Oh, and despite his categories suggesting otherwise, I actually fall in pretty clearly in the U or U/M categories to most people looking in.  I'm an upper middle class white girls, whose family didn't live ostentatiously, but who had money, especially in my later childhood.  My dad was a C-level worker, though for a government entity.  I had tennis lessons as a kid.  We lived in "owned typical suburban homes", etc.  So it isn't as though I'm objecting because I'm left out in some way as an "O".  Not really.  The fact that his categories don't really capture me means they just suck at doing what they are trying to do.

^what she said
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: BicycleB on October 29, 2022, 02:03:06 PM
(ack! some of my friends / respected commenters are mad at me!!)

(making very cogent criticisms though!)
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mspym on October 29, 2022, 02:30:59 PM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isn’t referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 29, 2022, 05:10:14 PM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

I always thought it was red wine too, until my sister told me it was port  It makes sense, it keeps a lot better than wine, tastes better than most red wines, has a higher alcohol content so kills all those germs on the communion cup.   ;-)

So Religion - somewhat lavish costumes, formal service, piano or small organ (not pipe), choir of adequate singers from the congregation - that has been basically all the churches I have attended.  So UM?  Or just standard Anglican?   ;-)

For L should we also add a lot of fire and brimstone preaching?  Or is that a subset?

Religion is so tied into cultural background - my ancestors range from really poor to working class of varying levels to definitely upper middle class, and they also include everything from Roman Catholic to Presbyterian, with United Church and Anglican a bit newer in the mix.  The really poor ones were some (not all) of the Catholics.  Some of the better educated ones were Presbyterians.  So a mish-mash. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 29, 2022, 05:11:10 PM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isn’t referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Either way.

Where I grew up both were poor.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 29, 2022, 05:20:15 PM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isn’t referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Either way.

Where I grew up both were poor.

There is Anglican (what I grew up with) and High Anglican, which is what you see when you watch English YouTube videos of choirs and organ playing.

Of course when I was growing up in Montreal, Catholic meant the odds were you were French, not that you were either rich or poor. 

In Eastern Canada, Catholic was usually poor because you were most likely an Irish immigrant in steerage.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 29, 2022, 05:25:11 PM
There is Anglican (what I grew up with) and High Anglican, which is what you see when you watch English YouTube videos of choirs and organ playing.

Of course when I was growing up in Montreal, Catholic meant the odds were you were French, not that you were either rich or poor. 

In Eastern Canada, Catholic was usually poor because you were most likely an Irish immigrant in steerage.

Yep, I grew up Anglican too (barely), and the nearest High Anglican church was not attended by wealthy folks. I'm not that familiar with the church though, so maybe it does hold that "High Anglican" churches tend to be attended by the very wealthy. I have no idea.

We mostly attended the Anglican church nearby because the minister used to get high with my mom.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Morning Glory on October 29, 2022, 05:34:07 PM
There is Anglican (what I grew up with) and High Anglican, which is what you see when you watch English YouTube videos of choirs and organ playing.

Of course when I was growing up in Montreal, Catholic meant the odds were you were French, not that you were either rich or poor. 

In Eastern Canada, Catholic was usually poor because you were most likely an Irish immigrant in steerage.

Yep, I grew up Anglican too (barely), and the nearest High Anglican church was not attended by wealthy folks. I'm not that familiar with the church though, so maybe it does hold that "High Anglican" churches tend to be attended by the very wealthy. I have no idea.

We mostly attended the Anglican church nearby because the minister used to get high with my mom.

Now I am picturing the "high Anglicans" sitting primly in their church hats passing a joint while rapturously listening to the boys' choir. Later over coffee and cake they will titter about how it's "for their glaucoma".
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on October 29, 2022, 05:37:18 PM
There is Anglican (what I grew up with) and High Anglican, which is what you see when you watch English YouTube videos of choirs and organ playing.

Of course when I was growing up in Montreal, Catholic meant the odds were you were French, not that you were either rich or poor. 

In Eastern Canada, Catholic was usually poor because you were most likely an Irish immigrant in steerage.

Yep, I grew up Anglican too (barely), and the nearest High Anglican church was not attended by wealthy folks. I'm not that familiar with the church though, so maybe it does hold that "High Anglican" churches tend to be attended by the very wealthy. I have no idea.

We mostly attended the Anglican church nearby because the minister used to get high with my mom.

Now I am picturing the "high Anglicans" sitting primly in their church hats passing a joint while rapturously listening to the boys' choir.

Not exactly...more like the minister would sometimes come hang out at my mom's bar where EVERYONE got high. The previous minister's son was a raging cocaine addict and drove his car through a wall of the bar. Thankfully no one died.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: GodlessCommie on November 18, 2022, 10:24:07 AM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Villanelle on November 18, 2022, 10:33:47 AM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

But you fly a *reqional airline*!  I mean, you might as well be playing banjo in Appalachia! 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on November 18, 2022, 10:34:06 AM
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: big_owl on November 20, 2022, 07:10:15 PM
That calculator is sort of bunk.  We are 99.7% income and the best it could tell us was we're "upper".  Yeah, no shit. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mizzourah2006 on November 21, 2022, 07:29:04 AM
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

I wonder to what extent this is colored by where you live. If that definition is what makes you upper class I've never known anyone that is upper class, because these aren't really behaviors or hobbies common in the midwest. I'm sure that's reasonably common in DC and NYC, but that list implies that the only people that are upper class are on the east coast.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on November 21, 2022, 08:52:49 AM
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

I wonder to what extent this is colored by where you live. If that definition is what makes you upper class I've never known anyone that is upper class, because these aren't really behaviors or hobbies common in the midwest. I'm sure that's reasonably common in DC and NYC, but that list implies that the only people that are upper class are on the east coast.

It varies according to tons of things, and is heavily influenced by what writers of tv and movies think is "high class."
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: StarBright on November 21, 2022, 09:26:22 AM
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

I wonder to what extent this is colored by where you live. If that definition is what makes you upper class I've never known anyone that is upper class, because these aren't really behaviors or hobbies common in the midwest. I'm sure that's reasonably common in DC and NYC, but that list implies that the only people that are upper class are on the east coast.

Isn't this why "The Great Sorting" happened in the 90s and aughts? I grew up in the midwest - hate watching sports, can't stand lake culture, barely tolerate camping. I like museums and the opera and the ballet. I moved to the east coast as soon as I was 18.

I think "Class" and "Culture" are inextricably linked in the United States - probably because traditional cultural institutions (coded upper class) don't exist without major money underwriting them (which you couldn't do if you didn't have the big bucks).

In the US there was a movement in the 50s- early 80s to disentangle culture from the east coast elites and make it more of a public good. But by the 80s there was a strong counter movement that said we don't want our tax dollars supporting culture, and so the cycle continues. Upper class culture is "upper class" because it is funded by donations from the ultra rich.

Donating money for culture (non profit) is really different than buying a product (boat, truck, season of football tickets) and therein lies the difference.

FWIW - There are midwestern towns with decent culture, but those areas also had or have real concentrations of wealth (Omaha, Detroit, and Chicago (which is its own wonderful animal, and reads as neither East Coast or Midwestern.)
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Chris Pascale on November 21, 2022, 11:03:01 AM
Household this year will be about $200-250k gross, depending on teaching assignments. On LI, it means we can live pretty well if we're smart with what we take in.

Some rich-people-stuff I do: Volunteer on a charitable board, do independent research for which the potential for making any money is very remote; wife and I are thinking of which potential 2024 candidates we'd volunteer to help if they run.

I've thus far cash flowed daughters 1 and 2 through (local, public) university.

Having one vehicle for both of us by choice is a rich-person thing, IMO.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Spiffy on November 21, 2022, 12:11:14 PM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isn’t referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Anglican/Episcopalian churches in America use port for communion wine because, once opened, the bottle last much longer. Source: me, an altar guild member.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Edubb20 on November 21, 2022, 12:38:52 PM
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.

Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: joe189man on November 21, 2022, 01:27:19 PM
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.

we are 40-44
Income at 97th
https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/

Net Worth at 87th with no home equity (for age group)
Net Worth at 88th with home Equity (for age group)
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-united-states/

Net Worth at 84th with no home equity (not counting age)
Net worth at 85th with home equity (not counting age)
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/

Using the link above:
Average Net Worth (50th percentile) not counting home equity in the USA is $39k
A net worth of ~$1 million (not counting home equity) puts you in the top 9% of households
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mspym on November 21, 2022, 05:23:36 PM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isn’t referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Anglican/Episcopalian churches in America use port for communion wine because, once opened, the bottle last much longer. Source: me, an altar guild member.
Also a factor! You can buy it in bulk without fair the bottle will go rank.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: GilesMM on November 21, 2022, 07:36:36 PM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isn’t referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Anglican/Episcopalian churches in America use port for communion wine because, once opened, the bottle last much longer. Source: me, an altar guild member.
Also a factor! You can buy it in bulk without fair the bottle will go rank.

I always thought the altar minions polished off the last of the wine immediately after the service, as a matter of duty.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mspym on November 21, 2022, 07:40:51 PM

Hey, port is delicious.  Every Canadian Anglican grew up with red port, it is our communion wine.

I didn't realize that.  We attended Anglican church in Australia but I thought they used red wine. 

Religion
L - dancing or laying on of hands during service
M - normal outfits, no dancing, possible guitar playing
U - lavish costumes worn by officiants, formal service, large pipe organ, possible boys choir

Nope, Anglican churches use port for communion wine because it tastes richer and more blood-of-god-like. Source: my dad who is an Anglican minister.

@Malcat given the context that last one probably isn’t referring to Catholicism but High Anglican, which also goes in for the Latin and the pipe organs and the choirs etc

Anglican/Episcopalian churches in America use port for communion wine because, once opened, the bottle last much longer. Source: me, an altar guild member.
Also a factor! You can buy it in bulk without fair the bottle will go rank.

I always thought the altar minions polished off the last of the wine immediately after the service, as a matter of duty.
Minister polishes off anything that is left in the communion cup because, well, it's been sanctified and you can't just leave the blood of Christ around for any old bozo. The port that hasn't been sanctified sits in the stash for next service, assuming that Father Ted and friends don't come for a visit, and needs to still be good.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: LightStache on November 22, 2022, 08:48:36 AM
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.
Amongst the already FIREd crowd I'm sure it would be fairly common to see high net worth and a low income - even poverty level (taxable) income - who appear to live a middle class livestyle. Not sure how that work work when modelling an income class.

Right, a lot of countries' tax policies provide favorable treatment to income from capital so researchers have to make adjustments if using tax data to examine wealth.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: GodlessCommie on November 22, 2022, 09:19:27 AM
Regarding the "new aristocracy"... it takes two distinct forms:

1. There are places, often rural or small-town, often in the South (but not exclusively), where you really don't want to cross certain people. It's a combination of wealth, highly local political power, and means of applying state-sanctioned violence that create something similar to medieval aristocracy. They are mostly fine with not being very culturally influential, as long as they maintain control of their fiefdoms.

2. There are also places, often but not always in the Northeast, where old money sees their political power somewhat diminished, and wealth overshadowed by new money - but their cultural pull is such that they still can see themselves as above others. This is more akin to the later stage aristocracy - even to their modern aristocratic counterparts in Europe.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: LightStache on November 22, 2022, 11:22:57 AM
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.
Amongst the already FIREd crowd I'm sure it would be fairly common to see high net worth and a low income - even poverty level (taxable) income - who appear to live a middle class livestyle. Not sure how that work work when modelling an income class.

Right, a lot of countries' tax policies provide favorable treatment to income from capital so researchers have to make adjustments if using tax data to examine wealth.
I wonder how they would do that? Since (in the USA at least) income class is all about income rather than social activities or spending I guess the only way would be ask about total NW and total spending. If total NW is $2mm and total annual spending is $15k (to use an example from @CurledMoss in another thread) are you in a wealth class or a poverty class? Maybe FIREees need their own income class ;-).

They use other sources of data like the census or surveys and just rely on that alone or use it to produce an adjustment to a broader data set.

Income is independent from expenses. If total NW is $2mm, invested Mustachian style, that likely generates an average income, capital gains and dividends, of $160K/yr. Whether the owner realizes any capital gains/losses, takes distributions from retirement accounts, etc. is only an artifact of tax policy and doesn't reflect true income as it relates to wealth.

It's not just FIREees. Wealthy people who are also high spenders can maintain a very low taxable income. You just need to own the company and/or be the beneficiary of a trust, not earn income as a non-owner employee.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Villanelle on November 22, 2022, 11:31:49 AM
Income class is such a strange concept when viewed in isolation.


 I'd love to see income class to net worth comparisons( both with and without home equity) for various segments of the population.
Amongst the already FIREd crowd I'm sure it would be fairly common to see high net worth and a low income - even poverty level (taxable) income - who appear to live a middle class livestyle. Not sure how that work work when modelling an income class.

Right, a lot of countries' tax policies provide favorable treatment to income from capital so researchers have to make adjustments if using tax data to examine wealth.
I wonder how they would do that? Since (in the USA at least) income class is all about income rather than social activities or spending I guess the only way would be ask about total NW and total spending. If total NW is $2mm and total annual spending is $15k (to use an example from @CurledMoss in another thread) are you in a wealth class or a poverty class? Maybe FIREees need their own income class ;-).

This is why I think net worth is much more relevant than just about anything else.  If Scrooge McDuck has zero income but a swimming pool full of gold coins, he can live as extravagantly (or not) as someone with an income of several million per year.  (Dear Uncle Scrooge is missing out on interest or other growth from all those doubloons and maravedis, of course.)  Now, if he only spends $20k, he's living roughly the same lifestyle as someone with less net worth, but even then I'd argue that his experience is different than someone with almost no net worth, making $20k and spending $20k, because that person has no security and no clear path out of that cycle.

 Even looking at income tells you very little.  If someone makes $250y/yr but pays $200k just servicing debt, they are far worse off than someone debt-free and making $125k. 

So I'm not even sure why "income class" is a category for much of anything because I don't think it has much relevance. 

I don't think any snapshot category is going to accurately reflect all possibilities and differences, but to me net worth comes as close as possible, with just one simple metric, to giving you a picture of someone's situation.  Even if you take 2 people with a #3m net worth and have one that spends $20k and another who spends $500k, you still have a clear understand of what each of them *could* spend, and of the safety and longevity of their stockpile. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: BicycleB on November 22, 2022, 04:45:53 PM
I'm not even sure why "income class" is a category for much of anything because I don't think it has much relevance. 

I don't think any snapshot category is going to accurately reflect all possibilities and differences, but to me net worth comes as close as possible, with just one simple metric, to giving you a picture of someone's situation.  Even if you take 2 people with a #3m net worth and have one that spends $20k and another who spends $500k, you still have a clear understand of what each of them *could* spend, and of the safety and longevity of their stockpile.

"Income class" doesn't have much relevance for people with high net worth, because in most cases their net worth determines the bulk of their spending capacity. It has a lot of relevance for people without high net worth, because in most cases income does determine their spending capacity.

Most people do not have high net worth. Therefore income is the most relevant category for the majority of the population.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: davisgang90 on November 23, 2022, 04:44:27 AM
I'm firmly middle class based on income from pension and VA disability. Not touching investments for now.

Considering my investments and looking at guaranteed pension income as an investment, I'm in the 87th percentile for wealth at my age (54).
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: bryan995 on November 23, 2022, 08:55:47 AM
That calculator is sort of bunk.  We are 99.7% income and the best it could tell us was we're "upper".  Yeah, no shit.

Dang, that's what ... >1.6M ish?
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: JLee on November 23, 2022, 09:10:14 AM
Spending and activities are a good way to look at it.

Home
Lower Class - rent, own pre-fab home
Middle Class - own typical suburban home or urban condo
Upper Class - house and significant land with manicured gardens, gates, privacy wall

Wheels
L - American truck or SUV
M - Japanese or European SUV
U - Rolls Royce, Suburban

Wings
L - discount airlines, regional airlines
M - commercial airlines
U - private aircraft

Boats
L - airboat, fishing boat, water ski boat
M - canoe, kayak, sailboat
U - 50 ft plus motor yacht

Vacation
L - Vegas, Theme Parks
M - Canada, National Parks, Europe
U - Martha's Vineyard, Hamptons, Swiss Alps, St. Tropez

Staff
L - may actually be staff
M - bi-weekly maid service, lawn service
U - live-in maid, cook, au-pair and groundskeeper

Beverage
L - beer, ripple, box wine
M - modern wines, craft beer
U - aged Scotch, vintage French wine, port

Dining
L - fast food, diners
M - every public restaurant with sit-down service
U - private club, no prices shown

Leisure
L - bowling, off track betting,
M - golf, tennis, soccer, skiing domestically
U - polo, croquet, tennis, skiing in the Alps

So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Yeah this is a really weird list.  A new high spec F150 is shockingly close to $100k and ski boats can run double that.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Sanitary Stache on November 23, 2022, 11:43:37 AM
I am expecting to bump up into the middle income classification for 2023.  So far that means an increase in out of pocket expenses due to falling off off of the benefits cliff with respect to food and health insurance subsidy and resisting the urge to spend all the additional money on projects.

The urge to spend is complicated by tax subsidies that want me to spend on electrification and offer 30% off.  It's like a 30% off sale.  I am not sure if I can resist because not paying tax seems like a whole other addition benefit, in addition to the sale price.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: big_owl on November 23, 2022, 02:21:28 PM
That calculator is sort of bunk.  We are 99.7% income and the best it could tell us was we're "upper".  Yeah, no shit.

Dang, that's what ... >1.6M ish?

More than that
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: coppertop on November 24, 2022, 08:29:29 AM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I don’t get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone “only” needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You don’t get to look down on those who aren’t at the same level of success and say they didn’t try hard enough, etc. being poor isn’t a moral failing and being middle or upper class isn’t a virtue.

Thank you for this.  Many of us worked damn hard, but there were other circumstances that prevented us from earning higher wages or being promoted.  It is the height of arrogance to suggest that higher wage earners just got there by working harder than others. 
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mistymoney on November 24, 2022, 12:30:31 PM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I don’t get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone “only” needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You don’t get to look down on those who aren’t at the same level of success and say they didn’t try hard enough, etc. being poor isn’t a moral failing and being middle or upper class isn’t a virtue.

Thank you for this.  Many of us worked damn hard, but there were other circumstances that prevented us from earning higher wages or being promoted.  It is the height of arrogance to suggest that higher wage earners just got there by working harder than others.

I've actually been thinking retrospecitively about my career for several months now, about the exceptionally hard work, long hours, and talent I brought to the table at several companies where it was not rewarded hardly at all. In some cases I did find out at some point I was paid a lot less than coworkers while actually doing more. I did move around but it was the same shit show everywhere, and it was an employers market and getting new jobs was not easy.

I did eventually move up and make ok money, but I was already into my 50's, so just a few years to tie up my financial loose ends and save as much as I can as I ready for FIRE (or just maybe FIR depending on the market over the next year -2 - 3, and when I pull the plug. Will be sad if I'm still working at 60!).

I'm actually witnessing something at work right now that is infuriating. There are two young men that I have worked with, and have been their direct and indirect supervisor at various times over the past few years.

One is talented, creative, and hard working, and the other is lazy and sloppy, only performing when senior leadership is watching, and constantly pushing for more money and promotions.

So lazy and pushy is climbing up and hard working and talented is not. Lazy went out of my chain of command, although when he was getting that first promotion I did mention to the supervisor hiring him on that he needs some direction and oversight, I was diplomatic as that decision was already made and I certainly didn't want to poison the well, and who knew - maybe he'd step up once in a position he wanted or was more suitabel for? I'm not in the loop but seems he is working at the same, but puts it on whenever senior leadership is around.

But meanwhile, I've been pushing for the talented guy, but it took me 2 years to get him one promotion while lazy had gotten 2 within that time. I am working closely with talented's manager to lay the groundwork for another promotion, but it is going to hard work for us.

You have to ask why? I'd put it down to arrogance and confidence. Not talent and hardwork. I'm sure pushy will go far in life without ever working hard or bringing in fresh ideas.

I'm trying to make sure talented goes as far as I can push through. But so much is out of my hands, and so much unrelated to doing good work.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: index on November 24, 2022, 02:43:38 PM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I don’t get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone “only” needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You don’t get to look down on those who aren’t at the same level of success and say they didn’t try hard enough, etc. being poor isn’t a moral failing and being middle or upper class isn’t a virtue.

Thank you for this.  Many of us worked damn hard, but there were other circumstances that prevented us from earning higher wages or being promoted.  It is the height of arrogance to suggest that higher wage earners just got there by working harder than others.

I've actually been thinking retrospecitively about my career for several months now, about the exceptionally hard work, long hours, and talent I brought to the table at several companies where it was not rewarded hardly at all. In some cases I did find out at some point I was paid a lot less than coworkers while actually doing more. I did move around but it was the same shit show everywhere, and it was an employers market and getting new jobs was not easy.

I did eventually move up and make ok money, but I was already into my 50's, so just a few years to tie up my financial loose ends and save as much as I can as I ready for FIRE (or just maybe FIR depending on the market over the next year -2 - 3, and when I pull the plug. Will be sad if I'm still working at 60!).

I'm actually witnessing something at work right now that is infuriating. There are two young men that I have worked with, and have been their direct and indirect supervisor at various times over the past few years.

One is talented, creative, and hard working, and the other is lazy and sloppy, only performing when senior leadership is watching, and constantly pushing for more money and promotions.

So lazy and pushy is climbing up and hard working and talented is not. Lazy went out of my chain of command, although when he was getting that first promotion I did mention to the supervisor hiring him on that he needs some direction and oversight, I was diplomatic as that decision was already made and I certainly didn't want to poison the well, and who knew - maybe he'd step up once in a position he wanted or was more suitabel for? I'm not in the loop but seems he is working at the same, but puts it on whenever senior leadership is around.

But meanwhile, I've been pushing for the talented guy, but it took me 2 years to get him one promotion while lazy had gotten 2 within that time. I am working closely with talented's manager to lay the groundwork for another promotion, but it is going to hard work for us.

You have to ask why? I'd put it down to arrogance and confidence. Not talent and hardwork. I'm sure pushy will go far in life without ever working hard or bringing in fresh ideas.

I'm trying to make sure talented goes as far as I can push through. But so much is out of my hands, and so much unrelated to doing good work.

You have to play the game right. Lazy works harder at what matters to get ahead than talented. Puting an hour of thought and having insight during a large meeting pays 10x the rate of 1hr of good hard technical work. If you want to make more money, figure out how to be a force multiplier and get others to do the work. @coppertop is exactly right. High earners didn't necessarily work harder. They worked smarter and probably had a bit of luck to get where they are. It sucks, but producing work product is the bottom rung of an organization and pay hierarchy.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: mistymoney on November 24, 2022, 08:36:25 PM
Oh boy. The only thing I’m going to add to this is that these things are not as “easy” or accessible to all people. The playing field is not level.

I don’t get the point. Is it for those on the fortunate side of the field to not try because it is not fair to win? Or for those on the unfortunate side to not try because they will not win? Hopefully neither, since both or bullshit. Everyone should strive to reach the level of success they desire, and be accountable for their choices along the way.

Not sure what is unclear. The playing field is not level. Saying that someone “only” needs to do xyz to achieve a particular success is ignoring that not everyone has access to the same resources. You don’t get to look down on those who aren’t at the same level of success and say they didn’t try hard enough, etc. being poor isn’t a moral failing and being middle or upper class isn’t a virtue.

Thank you for this.  Many of us worked damn hard, but there were other circumstances that prevented us from earning higher wages or being promoted.  It is the height of arrogance to suggest that higher wage earners just got there by working harder than others.

I've actually been thinking retrospecitively about my career for several months now, about the exceptionally hard work, long hours, and talent I brought to the table at several companies where it was not rewarded hardly at all. In some cases I did find out at some point I was paid a lot less than coworkers while actually doing more. I did move around but it was the same shit show everywhere, and it was an employers market and getting new jobs was not easy.

I did eventually move up and make ok money, but I was already into my 50's, so just a few years to tie up my financial loose ends and save as much as I can as I ready for FIRE (or just maybe FIR depending on the market over the next year -2 - 3, and when I pull the plug. Will be sad if I'm still working at 60!).

I'm actually witnessing something at work right now that is infuriating. There are two young men that I have worked with, and have been their direct and indirect supervisor at various times over the past few years.

One is talented, creative, and hard working, and the other is lazy and sloppy, only performing when senior leadership is watching, and constantly pushing for more money and promotions.

So lazy and pushy is climbing up and hard working and talented is not. Lazy went out of my chain of command, although when he was getting that first promotion I did mention to the supervisor hiring him on that he needs some direction and oversight, I was diplomatic as that decision was already made and I certainly didn't want to poison the well, and who knew - maybe he'd step up once in a position he wanted or was more suitabel for? I'm not in the loop but seems he is working at the same, but puts it on whenever senior leadership is around.

But meanwhile, I've been pushing for the talented guy, but it took me 2 years to get him one promotion while lazy had gotten 2 within that time. I am working closely with talented's manager to lay the groundwork for another promotion, but it is going to hard work for us.

You have to ask why? I'd put it down to arrogance and confidence. Not talent and hardwork. I'm sure pushy will go far in life without ever working hard or bringing in fresh ideas.

I'm trying to make sure talented goes as far as I can push through. But so much is out of my hands, and so much unrelated to doing good work.

You have to play the game right. Lazy works harder at what matters to get ahead than talented. Puting an hour of thought and having insight during a large meeting pays 10x the rate of 1hr of good hard technical work. If you want to make more money, figure out how to be a force multiplier and get others to do the work. @coppertop is exactly right. High earners didn't necessarily work harder. They worked smarter and probably had a bit of luck to get where they are. It sucks, but producing work product is the bottom rung of an organization and pay hierarchy.

I certainly agree, and if lazy was shopping his own ideas in front of senior leadership, that would be great. But - it is usually someone else's.

Kind of reminds me of the old movie all about eve.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: roomtempmayo on November 26, 2022, 02:00:05 PM
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

My wife sometimes says the neighborhood she grew up with was “construction money,” i.e. new money, no taste.

Class isn’t a matter of money. It’s how you make your money, and what you do with your time and money.

The WWC understands perfectly well what class is and how it works, they just don’t like it.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on November 26, 2022, 02:18:49 PM
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

My wife sometimes says the neighborhood she grew up with was “construction money,” i.e. new money, no taste.

Class isn’t a matter of money. It’s how you make your money, and what you do with your time and money.

The WWC understands perfectly well what class is and how it works, they just don’t like it.

My experience of living amongst people of various backgrounds and various levels of wealth ranging from working with homeless people to socializing with billionaires is that everyone seems to think they "know" what dictates "class" but almost no one is actually in agreement about it.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: roomtempmayo on November 26, 2022, 02:42:00 PM
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

My wife sometimes says the neighborhood she grew up with was “construction money,” i.e. new money, no taste.

Class isn’t a matter of money. It’s how you make your money, and what you do with your time and money.

The WWC understands perfectly well what class is and how it works, they just don’t like it.

My experience of living amongst people of various backgrounds and various levels of wealth ranging from working with homeless people to socializing with billionaires is that everyone seems to think they "know" what dictates "class" but almost no one is actually in agreement about it.

It’s not exactly a conversation I regularly have with strangers, so I’m going to need to defer to your crossectional assessment.

However, at least in the US, I suspect if you offered people a set of occupations and hobbies and asked them to code them by class you’d get a fair bit of agreement. If you asked a group whether it’s higher class to make a million dollars as a surgeon or as the owner of a corner liquor store, I doubt many are going to say it’s the liquor store owner who’s higher class.

The past 6-8 years of American politics have gone a long way to cement class perceptions and boundaries in American minds.
Title: Re: Which Income Class Are You
Post by: Metalcat on November 27, 2022, 07:24:50 AM
So, basically, class = vibes. Because no other definition puts someone owning a $40K truck and a water ski boat in lower class.

Not saying it's not a popular view. This is what (partially) drives WWC resentment towards the "elites". "Look, I'm financially stable, I have my sh*t together, I hit every marker a responsible adult must hit, I may be better off than you - and you still look down on me".

Well...yeah...

That's why I keep making reference to the old school aristocratic values having been adopted by the meritocrats and how problematic that is, especially since most don't even know that that's where they come from.

Old school aristocratic superiority is still alive and well, it's just dressed up in a seemingly palatable meritocratic bow.

My wife sometimes says the neighborhood she grew up with was “construction money,” i.e. new money, no taste.

Class isn’t a matter of money. It’s how you make your money, and what you do with your time and money.

The WWC understands perfectly well what class is and how it works, they just don’t like it.

My experience of living amongst people of various backgrounds and various levels of wealth ranging from working with homeless people to socializing with billionaires is that everyone seems to think they "know" what dictates "class" but almost no one is actually in agreement about it.

It’s not exactly a conversation I regularly have with strangers, so I’m going to need to defer to your crossectional assessment.

However, at least in the US, I suspect if you offered people a set of occupations and hobbies and asked them to code them by class you’d get a fair bit of agreement. If you asked a group whether it’s higher class to make a million dollars as a surgeon or as the owner of a corner liquor store, I doubt many are going to say it’s the liquor store owner who’s higher class.

The past 6-8 years of American politics have gone a long way to cement class perceptions and boundaries in American minds.

In broad strokes, sure, there are broad class themes, but they break down pretty quickly under closer examination and actual lived experience.

And literally everything to do with "new money" and "old money" class nonsense dates back to the aristocrats.

Which is HILARIOUS since the famous "old money" families in the US today were ALL white trash new money back in the day.

And once you see inside the world of the ultra wealthy "upper class" you see that virtually all concepts of "class" are nonsense circular logic anchored to nothing real.

No matter how much you have, no matter who your family is, no matter what cultural signifiers you engage in, someone will always find a way to define you as "not actually high class" for some reason or another.

And the things that most Americans would agree upon are the old aristocratic class signifiers, which are based on a system that literally doesn't exist anymore, and are therefore meaningless and on exact contradiction of many of our celebrated class features today.

The old status signifiers were all about demonstrating a *lack* of industriousness. Aristocrats specially engaged extensively in activities that signaled that they weren't spending their time making money. Hence why certain leisure activities are seen as "high class."

But they were the ones with the money, and now that earning money is also status, the markers of class and wealth go in direct conflict with one another.

Is someone high class because they are brilliant and made a ton of money being brilliant and getting heavily into philanthropy? Is someone high class because they are the descendant of generational wealth, have never had a job in their life, spend all of their time playing rich-kid sports, and are best known for never being prosecuted for all of the servants they rape?

Trust me, every rich person I know thinks that most of the other rich people are total trash. There's only generally agreement about what constitutes class by people who see themselves as beneath that class or above it. Within each class range, there's shocking levels of disagreement about class. Hence why everyone in the broad "middle class" has the same level of disagreement.

It's all a bunch of self-conflicting, fucked up nonsense that completely crumbles under any critical examination.