Author Topic: where is sol?  (Read 19939 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #200 on: July 17, 2019, 12:48:35 PM »
I don't remember GWB ever "joking" about being president for 10 or 12 more years. Or saying that his followers would start a civil war if he doesn't get re-elected. Or being a mysogynistic, racist, lying criminal.

GWB looks like a saint compared to the current president.

Then you have a very different view of Bush than the reality of his time in office. People wanted him arrested for war crimes. The worst I've heard about Trump so far is impeachment, though the Hitler references started much earlier in his presidency than they did for Bush.

“If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier... as long as I'm the dictator.” -GWB

It was reported that Obama said something along the lines of it being easier to be president of China than of the USA to Chinese officials (so that can be taken with a grain of salt). In either case, everyone says dumb shit. Trump seems to say a lot more of it, but that doesn't change the fact that people will always overreact to or ignore whatever is said, depending on party affiliation.

Bush did commit war crimes.  He OK'd the abduction and torture of civilians and the torture of enemy combatants.  He OK'd the use of private contractors in the Iraq war who committed war crimes.

He wasn't overtly racist, or misogynist though, didn't conspire with Russia, and didn't commit crimes in the US to the best of my knowledge though.

robartsd

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #201 on: July 17, 2019, 01:19:02 PM »
For what it's worth, here's what I think is happening:

Looking at the Democratic slate of candidates for 2020, it seems apparent that at least one of the presidential nominee or VP picks will be a person of color. Very possibly, one of them will be a woman, too. Trump is ramping up the racism, sexism, and neo-birtherism now, because he knows that's what his supporters like/want/respond to. What he is doing now is building a new Hillary machine for them to hate -- a figurehead to spew all their bile and conspiracy theories at. Expect more and increasingly strident racism from him going forward, because the point is to create that space where any of the eventual candidates can just be plugged in. By the time the Democratic nomination is made, Trump's base -- and right-wing media, and his lackeys in the GOP -- will be primed and prepped to transfer all that hatred to whomever it ends up being. Instead of "Lock Her Up!" they'll just change the chant to "Send Them Back!"

And if the Democrats keep infighting, they will be fragmented and unable to rally behind their ticket.

The libertarians will keep thinking they're above all this and not bother to try to block Trump. Because, you know, both parties are the same.

And that's how we get Trump in 2020.
IF Trump wins, I'm pretty sure Kris is right about how. Don't blame the libertarians though, the changing the line above that is all the Democrats should need to win. Trump has his base and they will turn out, but they are far from a majority. Of course Democrats could pivot towards the center in the primary and win by a landslide with plenty of independent support. The way I see it the Democratic party has all the power in this round because they know exactly which cards the Republican party will play; but this doesn't have to be a game where Trump always wins.

While the Democrats were in power, I kept thinking that the Republicans could easily take control by embracing the old-fashioned type of conservatism that OurTown talked about (that's what it will take to get my vote back). I never imagined that they would win with a candidate like Trump.

Either way, I won't spend too much time considering presidential candidates, I'm sure all 55 electoral votes from my state will go to the Democratic party's nominee. My time will be better spent considering the top two runoff candidates on my ballot.

Don't given Trump too much credit for any of the current prosperity. That pre-dated him and is independent of him. Enough said.
That is mostly true for nearly every presidential reelection candidate. The economy reacts too slowly to the policy lead by the sitting president to really be an indicator for their second term election. Unfortunately the voters react to the economy faster than policy changes effect the economy (and voters often put to much weight on the current economic conditions that are part of common business cycles in spite of policy changes as well).

I think the fundamental moral dilemma for moderates is that both far wings of each parties are taking the respective parties hostage, leaving many people feeling unrepresented...


and he is not at all old school conservative (small government, budget reduction, etc.).
Yep, (but I haven't decided to shirk my civic duty to vote, just decided that voting for the candidate that I believe would be the best is a better message to the dominate parties than voting for the dominate party candidate that is not as bad as the other). Republicans haven't actually put up an old school conservative for president in a long time.

Bottom line of this rant -- voting for one or the other is a "tacit approval" of everything they do is perhaps true, but it ignores the significant complexities of the matter.
And voting for a third party is not "tacit approval" of the eventual winner!

But constantly crying fascism got old during GWB's presidency, and anyone that's been around long enough to remember that is probably tired of hearing it by now. I remember having conversations with people who legitimately thought Bush would refuse to surrender power after his second term. And I see some of the same comments now.
And I heard plenty of conservatives that were afraid that Obama was going to refuse to turn over power and become a dictator.

She always was a moderate. It's just that the right has taken to labeling pretty much everyone on the other side a far-left radical socialist, no matter what the reality.
Personally I think Hillary's worst credential was her record at the Department of State. Not sure how people thought Trump would be better.

“If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier... as long as I'm the dictator.” -GWB

It was reported that Obama said something along the lines of it being easier to be president of China than of the USA to Chinese officials (so that can be taken with a grain of salt).
I take these to mean that President of the United States (and "Leader of the Free World") are not nearly as powerful titles as people sometimes make them out to be. You can (think you) have the perfect policy, but you still have to deal with politics to actually implement it. To everyone who's candidate losses the Presidential election, remember, the President's power is considerably limited on its own.

Trump seems to say a lot more of it, but that doesn't change the fact that people will always overreact to or ignore whatever is said, depending on party affiliation.
My biggest concern with Trump is that his words will be a problem for us diplomatically.  Fortunately, I think most of the world is far more rational about the actual power of the sitting US President than the average american voter.

skp

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #202 on: July 17, 2019, 02:29:34 PM »
I think being "too dumb to read past a headline" works both way.  I fully admit that I don't usually read past a headline.  What I'm reading on here and what I've seen from the headlines that  Trump tweeted for AOC to go back to where she came from (and thinking how horrible of him)  and then read the full quote to go back to the drug infested places they came from.....   To me that's two entirely different things.
Just like Sol saying that Trump said he could get away with murder in Times Square.... NOT the quote at all.

Adam Zapple

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #203 on: July 17, 2019, 02:31:48 PM »
Wow, that thread!  Am I the only one who thinks this site probably doesn't need an Off-Topic section?  What a disaster and wasteland that section seems to be.

The wasteland is spreading to other parts of the forum, unfortunately.  I'd be all for a no politics and no religion rule on this forum but I don't think there is enough moderator presence here to enforce it.  That is not a dig at the moderators.

Davnasty

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #204 on: July 17, 2019, 02:44:49 PM »
I think being "too dumb to read past a headline" works both way.  I fully admit that I don't usually read past a headline.  What I'm reading on here and what I've seen from the headlines that  Trump tweeted for AOC to go back to where she came from (and thinking how horrible of him)  and then read the full quote to go back to the drug infested places they came from.....   To me that's two entirely different things.
Just like Sol saying that Trump said he could get away with murder in Times Square.... NOT the quote at all.

Are you sure you read the full quote?

Quote
So interesting to see “Progressive” Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done. These places need your help badly, you can’t leave fast enough. I’m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!

skp

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #205 on: July 17, 2019, 02:50:12 PM »
Read it now.  OR maybe I need to fact check it.  The quote is NOT  "go back where you came from...."

skp

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #206 on: July 17, 2019, 03:00:32 PM »
Then you have Guitar Stv, aa Canadian yet seemingly expert on all American politics, who doesn't know who Omar is.  He must be reading  "the headlines"

EvenSteven

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #207 on: July 17, 2019, 03:02:10 PM »
Then you have Guitar Stv, aa Canadian yet seemingly expert on all American politics, who doesn't know who Omar is.  He must be reading  "the headlines"

Since when was he demoted from being a triple a Canadian?

sherr

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #208 on: July 17, 2019, 03:08:02 PM »
I think being "too dumb to read past a headline" works both way.  I fully admit that I don't usually read past a headline.  What I'm reading on here and what I've seen from the headlines that  Trump tweeted for AOC to go back to where she came from (and thinking how horrible of him)  and then read the full quote to go back to the drug infested places they came from.....   To me that's two entirely different things.
Just like Sol saying that Trump said he could get away with murder in Times Square.... NOT the quote at all.

? Just so we're all on the same page here, this is the full Trump quote in question (emphasis mine):

Quote
So interesting to see "Progressive" Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don't they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done. These places need your help badly, you can't leave fast enough. I'm sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!

Only one of the people he was talking about was not born in America, and she's been a citizen for longer than Trump's wife has been. The other three "originally came" from the USA. All four however are Black / Brown / Latino.

Telling brown people to "go back where you came from" is absolutely racist, and it a line straight from the white supremacist quotebook. It assumes that the USA is a land for whites only, and that non-whites can never really belong here.

And then in addition we throw on the other pejoratives, "vicious", "worst", "corrupt", "inept", "totally broken", "crime infested". This makes the statement more racist, not less as you somehow seem to conclude. These are all common racist characterizations of non-whites and non-white-majority countries. Other countries can have problems sure, but you'll never hear so bleak a picture as to hear a racist describe them.

Not to mention that "telling people how our government is to be run" is exactly the job of elected representatives. That's literally what they were elected to do. But racists sure seethe at having non-whites be in positions of authority, don't they?

Add it to the large pile of other explicitly racist things that Trump has done. I cannot understand how you think that adding "drug infested" somehow makes this non-racist.

Davnasty

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #209 on: July 17, 2019, 03:11:24 PM »
Read it now.  OR maybe I need to fact check it.  The quote is NOT  "go back where you came from...."

That is true that it doesn't literally say it and I'll admit I find it frustrating when headlines say "____ says _____" but it's not a quote. On the other hand it still reads like a clumsy, drawn out version of that. The basic premise that someone should go back to the country from which they came when they're a citizen of the US (particularly when they "came" from the US) is pretty awful. Since they were in fact born here, what country is he telling them to go to. Why is he even bringing up the idea that they're from another country? Could it have something to do with their skin color perhaps?

So he did not say "go back to where you came from" but he did say "Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came"

There was fluff in the middle where he criticized... the US and Somalia I guess?

sherr

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #210 on: July 17, 2019, 03:13:50 PM »
Read it now.  OR maybe I need to fact check it.  The quote is NOT  "go back where you came from...."

Right, technically it's "Why don't they go back ... [to the countries] from which they came." That's just a longer and more awkward way of saying the same thing though.

FIREstache

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #211 on: July 17, 2019, 03:15:54 PM »


Huh?  I have exactly ZERO posts in off-topic on this forum.  And I probably would have completely avoided reading them if not for this post showing up in the General section.

Oh shit sorry I had you confused with DreamFIRE who is another "independent" who shows up frequently to complain about politics.
My comment about child abuse not being a political issue still stands.

Really???  I could have sworn you had him mixed up with me, FIREstache, since I'm the only one who said I was an independent in this thread... more than once even, and I had posted some very recently in the off topic part of the forum that you were complaining about.

FIREstache

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #212 on: July 17, 2019, 03:40:09 PM »
The users who warn us that criticism of Trump will lead to his election are doing so to silence criticism. They're hoping your fear of another term will keep your mouth shut and normalize what most Americans view as unacceptable ideology. You'll notice that whatever the matter of discussion, they will take the farthest right position (even with ostensibly moderate positions, like "maybe" supporting Biden...  the topic there is which DNC they prefer, so naturally they've chosen the one the farthest to the right).  Their existence on this forum is to push right wherever and whenever possible.  You'll notice also that they have generic user names, don't engage in discussions constructively or in good faith, and gloat when actual users grow frustrated with engaging with them and stop posting. They make frequent and vague appeals to moderators to help them police the tone of conversations whenever the tone is open criticism of far right ideology. They'll post on-topic occasionally to maintain a thin veneer of plausibility to the moderator so that they continue to post.

This strategy plays out in many other fora and other social media platforms. It's a campaign.

That's quite an entertaining tale you tell there.  But I question whether any of it is grounded in facts.  If they want Trump to be re-elected as you stated, then why would they support Biden, who happens to be the democrat presidential candidate who polls most favorably in head to head matchups vs. Trump?

dougules

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #213 on: July 17, 2019, 03:44:46 PM »
Read it now.  OR maybe I need to fact check it.  The quote is NOT  "go back where you came from...."

Right, technically it's "Why don't they go back ... [to the countries] from which they came." That's just a longer and more awkward way of saying the same thing though.

Isn't it a tad ironic that Trump's mother was a Scottish immigrant?  This whole Brexit deal is a mess so maybe he should take his own advice.

former player

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #214 on: July 17, 2019, 06:03:22 PM »
Read it now.  OR maybe I need to fact check it.  The quote is NOT  "go back where you came from...."

Right, technically it's "Why don't they go back ... [to the countries] from which they came." That's just a longer and more awkward way of saying the same thing though.

Isn't it a tad ironic that Trump's mother was a Scottish immigrant?  This whole Brexit deal is a mess so maybe he should take his own advice.

Oh dear dog it's bad enough over here already without adding that.

arebelspy

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #215 on: July 17, 2019, 07:21:09 PM »
MOD NOTE:

Sol was warned for his comments that broke forum rules in the posts linked to on the first page of this thread.

He then left of his own accord. Who knows if, or when, he'll be back.

In the meantime, this thread has apparently turned into another political back and forth.

With the OP's question answered, above, I'm locking this thread.

Please PM me or another mod with any concerns.

Cheers!
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