Author Topic: where is sol?  (Read 20001 times)

Dicey

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2019, 04:16:51 PM »
I don't care much about sol, but I keep checking  @2Birds1Stone 's journal for updates.
At least we know he's in Poland, visiting family. I like to think that no updates = much fun bring had. I know no such thing about sol, alas.

FIREstache

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2019, 04:55:21 PM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

I wasn't expecting this to turn into a political thread, but then, no surprise.  LOL

I'm one of those independents.  It doesn't help that there's only one democrat candidate among the font-runners that I would consider voting for- Biden.  But none of them would be as strong as Trump on immigration and border security.

Cool Friend

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2019, 05:58:32 PM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

I wasn't expecting this to turn into a political thread, but then, no surprise.  LOL

I'm one of those independents.  It doesn't help that there's only one democrat candidate among the font-runners that I would consider voting for- Biden.  But none of them would be as strong as Trump on immigration and border security.

To be clear, FIREstache has just admitted that he supports corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists, as the abuse he receives for his support of it will drive him to vote for Trump in 2020.

fuzzy math

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2019, 06:08:47 PM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

I wasn't expecting this to turn into a political thread, but then, no surprise.  LOL

I'm one of those independents.  It doesn't help that there's only one democrat candidate among the font-runners that I would consider voting for- Biden.  But none of them would be as strong as Trump on immigration and border security.

To be clear, FIREstache has just admitted that he supports corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists, as the abuse he receives for his support of it will drive him to vote for Trump in 2020.

Nah hes an independent, remember? He will probably vote for the Libertarian candidate then wipe his hands of the whole mess.


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FIREstache

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2019, 08:11:25 PM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

I wasn't expecting this to turn into a political thread, but then, no surprise.  LOL

I'm one of those independents.  It doesn't help that there's only one democrat candidate among the font-runners that I would consider voting for- Biden.  But none of them would be as strong as Trump on immigration and border security.

To be clear, FIREstache has just admitted that he supports corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists, as the abuse he receives for his support of it will drive him to vote for Trump in 2020.

Like I just said, as an independent, I might vote for Biden.  But he has to win the nomination for that to be a possibility.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #155 on: July 17, 2019, 07:14:54 AM »
He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

Well, I didn't want to say anything negative myself, but the comments from the above posters match what I had been thinking, so I just feel I should say that I agree with them.

Ditto.  All the more reason to dump off-topic and political threads.  It's better when nobody knows or cares about political affiliation.

Please. Political affiliation will always seep out.

This way, at least there is a place for it.

Of course, but if there is a culture of it being off limits, maybe we could maintain civility?  The forum just lost a very popular poster over it, which seems proof enough that it's probably not a good idea to have fiery discussions about politics.  Too many people don't seem capable of handling it.  This is a FIRE blog, I would think if people want to scream at each other over politics and say nasty things, there surely must be more appropriate venues?
Wait! We didn't lose sol over a fiery discussions about politics.
 He left because of a simple statement,
"The big concern for divorce is that new boyfriends and step-dads, in particular, can be abusive and predatory."
This comment is what sol quoted and came unglued about.
 Breaking it down, "The big concern for divorce, (new boyfriends and step-dads), it may be a concern, whether it is the big concern is up for debate. and then "new boyfriends and step-dads, in particular, can be abusive and predatory." The important word here, is can. Yes, they can be, they aren't always, and it's probably a low percentage that are.
  I suspect a million people could read that and go on to the next post without anymore thought than, it's a shame that could happen, but sol had some memory that surfaced and this is how he expressed it.
 Nobodies problem but sol's.

Politics aside, I made the comment that "off topic" in general doesn't seem to be working with this community.  If I read correctly, Sol went off on a politically charged rant over the above non-political statement.  I've read through a bit of the conversations in off-topic, notably the political ones, and it's such a mess.  Not all of it, of course, but enough of it.

You live in the off topic forums. You participate in them heavily, then step back and complain that they're a flaming pile of shit, when you were just seen squatting in the pile.

Sol's comment was no more political than the other statement was. Child abuse is not a hot political topic that one party has taken up over the other. Using him to further your narrative because you disliked him and can't avoid the off topic forums without a mod closing them to spare you from them is just poor taste. Regulate yourself.

Huh?  I have exactly ZERO posts in off-topic on this forum.  And I probably would have completely avoided reading them if not for this post showing up in the General section. 

KBecks

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #156 on: July 17, 2019, 07:16:15 AM »
There are several users with FIRE in their names, perhaps there is some confusion as to who's who.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #157 on: July 17, 2019, 07:17:59 AM »
I miss sol, too.  I didn't always agree with everything he said, but I tended to enjoy reading how he said it.  At the very least, every anti-fancypants-blender tirade was gold (and this is from someone with a semi-fancypants $80 blender at home).
As a Vitamix owner I agree! I still hold that I"m happy with my Vitamix purchase. I also have fancypants cookware (regret purchase) and a dealership car (semi-regret purchase). All purchased before reading MMM.

Now I feel stupid for owning a Blendtec.  I figured it would come in handy if I ever needed to blend an iPhone.  Wish I could read these blender rants!  I'm not up for trying to find them, though.
Sol would say you're right to feel stupid about purchasing a Blendtec. It wasn't so much that each rant was gold, but that it seemed you couldn't mention Vitamix on the forum without Sol commenting about how stupid it is. Here's a few posts:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/msg1620399/#msg1620399
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/buy-it-for-life!/msg1336183/#msg1336183
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/buy-it-for-life!/msg1336763/#msg1336763
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/just-scored-a-vitamix-on-craigslist/msg1930163/#msg1930163

Thank you for sharing.  These are hilarious!  I still like my Blendtec, though :)

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #158 on: July 17, 2019, 07:32:12 AM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

This is probably accurate.  Runbikerun is not making their case.  I read their unsavory, holier than thou posts and think "I want no association with this."  It leaves such a bad taste in my mouth that it turns me off to their cause.  I could very much see behavior like this pushing voters to Trump.

Personally, I could maybe vote Biden if he wins the nomination.  Though the party is pushing him away from his generally moderate positions, that I have to go with my instinct that he's just trying to get votes and appease the radicals.  I'd prefer Biden v. Trump for sure, and the debates would play a large part in my final decision.  I would like to have a legit choice when voting time comes around.  There is not one other Democrat running that I would even consider an option, though I did like Booker at one point, so who knows.

Kris

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #159 on: July 17, 2019, 07:39:06 AM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

This is probably accurate.  Runbikerun is not making their case.  I read their unsavory, holier than thou posts and think "I want no association with this."  It leaves such a bad taste in my mouth that it turns me off to their cause.  I could very much see behavior like this pushing voters to Trump.

Personally, I could maybe vote Biden if he wins the nomination.  Though the party is pushing him away from his generally moderate positions, that I have to go with my instinct that he's just trying to get votes and appease the radicals.  I'd prefer Biden v. Trump for sure, and the debates would play a large part in my final decision.  I would like to have a legit choice when voting time comes around.  There is not one other Democrat running that I would even consider an option, though I did like Booker at one point, so who knows.

So, to be clear....

You would vote for Trump over anyone but Biden?

runbikerun

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #160 on: July 17, 2019, 07:51:13 AM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

This is probably accurate.  Runbikerun is not making their case.  I read their unsavory, holier than thou posts and think "I want no association with this."  It leaves such a bad taste in my mouth that it turns me off to their cause.  I could very much see behavior like this pushing voters to Trump.

Personally, I could maybe vote Biden if he wins the nomination.  Though the party is pushing him away from his generally moderate positions, that I have to go with my instinct that he's just trying to get votes and appease the radicals.  I'd prefer Biden v. Trump for sure, and the debates would play a large part in my final decision.  I would like to have a legit choice when voting time comes around.  There is not one other Democrat running that I would even consider an option, though I did like Booker at one point, so who knows.

Anyone who votes for Trump because someone a thousand miles away in Dublin was mean about him on the internet is an even bigger idiot that I had feared.

Davnasty

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #161 on: July 17, 2019, 07:52:40 AM »
Huh?  I have exactly ZERO posts in off-topic on this forum.  And I probably would have completely avoided reading them if not for this post showing up in the General section.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/living-in-a-hotel/msg2313839/#msg2313839

tee hee

But ya, they must have mistaken you for someone else.

Davnasty

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #162 on: July 17, 2019, 07:56:00 AM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

This is probably accurate.  Runbikerun is not making their case.  I read their unsavory, holier than thou posts and think "I want no association with this."  It leaves such a bad taste in my mouth that it turns me off to their cause.  I could very much see behavior like this pushing voters to Trump.

Personally, I could maybe vote Biden if he wins the nomination.  Though the party is pushing him away from his generally moderate positions, that I have to go with my instinct that he's just trying to get votes and appease the radicals.  I'd prefer Biden v. Trump for sure, and the debates would play a large part in my final decision.  I would like to have a legit choice when voting time comes around.  There is not one other Democrat running that I would even consider an option, though I did like Booker at one point, so who knows.

Anyone who votes for Trump because someone a thousand miles away in Dublin was mean about him on the internet is an even bigger idiot that I had feared.

Even if you're right, that vote still counts. As someone who lives in the country where Trump is president and could potentially be re-elected, I'd appreciate it if you toned it down a bit. You can have a productive conversation without sharing all of your true feelings.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #163 on: July 17, 2019, 07:59:27 AM »
Huh?  I have exactly ZERO posts in off-topic on this forum.  And I probably would have completely avoided reading them if not for this post showing up in the General section.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/living-in-a-hotel/msg2313839/#msg2313839

tee hee

But ya, they must have mistaken you for someone else.

Is it possible the thread was moved to off-topic.  If I recall reading (maybe a different forum?), you have to post a certain amount of times to even use off-topic, right?  In March I would have still been a new member.  Regardless, I was told I post like crazy in off-topic and accused of things I clearly don't do.  Obviously mistaken for another poster.  If somehow I stumbled on a single off topic post, then I was mistaken about "zero" - but that's a far cry from what I was accused of doing.

GuitarStv

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #164 on: July 17, 2019, 08:00:18 AM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

This is probably accurate.  Runbikerun is not making their case.  I read their unsavory, holier than thou posts and think "I want no association with this."  It leaves such a bad taste in my mouth that it turns me off to their cause.  I could very much see behavior like this pushing voters to Trump.

Personally, I could maybe vote Biden if he wins the nomination.  Though the party is pushing him away from his generally moderate positions, that I have to go with my instinct that he's just trying to get votes and appease the radicals.  I'd prefer Biden v. Trump for sure, and the debates would play a large part in my final decision.  I would like to have a legit choice when voting time comes around.  There is not one other Democrat running that I would even consider an option, though I did like Booker at one point, so who knows.

Anyone who votes for Trump because someone a thousand miles away in Dublin was mean about him on the internet is an even bigger idiot that I had feared.

Even if you're right, that vote still counts. As someone who lives in the country where Trump is president and could potentially be re-elected, I'd appreciate it if you toned it down a bit. You can have a productive conversation without sharing all of your true feelings.

Yeah.  Shut up or go back where you come from.  Trump 2020 - HOW GREAT IS AMERICA NOW?

mrsnamemustache

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #165 on: July 17, 2019, 08:02:48 AM »
Some moderate-types on this thread are saying that aspects of the progressive wing of the democrat party turn them off enough to either lead them to vote for trump or not vote at all. In response, some of the more liberal board members are pointing out that this makes them basically immoral. I agree that voting for Trump is an immoral choice, yet it is clear that many, many moderate/independent types will make this immoral choice on the basis of being very turned off by aspects of the progressive wing of the democrat party. So, if the point is to have someone more liberal and less awful than Trump elected, Democrats need to listen to those moderates, even if they find them to be morally reprehensible, because unfortunately they are the ones who will decide this election. That is my 2 cents.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #166 on: July 17, 2019, 08:02:56 AM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

This is probably accurate.  Runbikerun is not making their case.  I read their unsavory, holier than thou posts and think "I want no association with this."  It leaves such a bad taste in my mouth that it turns me off to their cause.  I could very much see behavior like this pushing voters to Trump.

Personally, I could maybe vote Biden if he wins the nomination.  Though the party is pushing him away from his generally moderate positions, that I have to go with my instinct that he's just trying to get votes and appease the radicals.  I'd prefer Biden v. Trump for sure, and the debates would play a large part in my final decision.  I would like to have a legit choice when voting time comes around.  There is not one other Democrat running that I would even consider an option, though I did like Booker at one point, so who knows.

Anyone who votes for Trump because someone a thousand miles away in Dublin was mean about him on the internet is an even bigger idiot that I had feared.

Even if you're right, that vote still counts. As someone who lives in the country where Trump is president and could potentially be re-elected, I'd appreciate it if you toned it down a bit. You can have a productive conversation without sharing all of your true feelings.


runbikerun has been added to my ignore list.  Such a nasty person.  Basically proof that politics probably shouldn't be discussed on this forum, because posters like that are seemingly allowed to act so hostile and say such awful things to others.  It would only work on this forum if moderators wouldn't tolerate that anymore.  But that doesn't appear to be the case.  Best to ignore it, so I'll take my own advice :)

fuzzy math

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #167 on: July 17, 2019, 08:03:08 AM »


Huh?  I have exactly ZERO posts in off-topic on this forum.  And I probably would have completely avoided reading them if not for this post showing up in the General section.

Oh shit sorry I had you confused with DreamFIRE who is another "independent" who shows up frequently to complain about politics.
My comment about child abuse not being a political issue still stands.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #168 on: July 17, 2019, 08:05:04 AM »


Huh?  I have exactly ZERO posts in off-topic on this forum.  And I probably would have completely avoided reading them if not for this post showing up in the General section.

Oh shit sorry I had you confused with DreamFIRE who is another "independent" who shows up frequently to complain about politics.
My comment about child abuse not being a political issue still stands.

It's all good!

DadJokes

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #169 on: July 17, 2019, 08:20:50 AM »
runbikerun has been added to my ignore list.  Such a nasty person.  Basically proof that politics probably shouldn't be discussed on this forum, because posters like that are seemingly allowed to act so hostile and say such awful things to others.  It would only work on this forum if moderators wouldn't tolerate that anymore.  But that doesn't appear to be the case.  Best to ignore it, so I'll take my own advice :)

Is there such a thing as an ignore list on the forum? Or is this a personal list?

That would certainly make the forum more pleasant...

Edit: found out how
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 08:41:15 AM by DadJokes »

Cool Friend

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #170 on: July 17, 2019, 08:27:01 AM »
The users who warn us that criticism of Trump will lead to his election are doing so to silence criticism. They're hoping your fear of another term will keep your mouth shut and normalize what most Americans view as unacceptable ideology. You'll notice that whatever the matter of discussion, they will take the farthest right position (even with ostensibly moderate positions, like "maybe" supporting Biden...  the topic there is which DNC they prefer, so naturally they've chosen the one the farthest to the right).  Their existence on this forum is to push right wherever and whenever possible.  You'll notice also that they have generic user names, don't engage in discussions constructively or in good faith, and gloat when actual users grow frustrated with engaging with them and stop posting. They make frequent and vague appeals to moderators to help them police the tone of conversations whenever the tone is open criticism of far right ideology. They'll post on-topic occasionally to maintain a thin veneer of plausibility to the moderator so that they continue to post.

This strategy plays out in many other fora and other social media platforms. It's a campaign.

BlueHouse

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #171 on: July 17, 2019, 08:30:41 AM »
Now, I need a new suggestion of who to follow here? Who posts reliably good finance stuff and knows their shit when it comes to taxes, investments, etc?

Quite a few people.  Checking out the investment and tax sections of the forum should give you a pretty good idea.

There was a thread once about "who do you follow" 

Sol was a top choice, as was MDM, and Seattle CPA. 

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #172 on: July 17, 2019, 08:44:21 AM »
runbikerun has been added to my ignore list.  Such a nasty person.  Basically proof that politics probably shouldn't be discussed on this forum, because posters like that are seemingly allowed to act so hostile and say such awful things to others.  It would only work on this forum if moderators wouldn't tolerate that anymore.  But that doesn't appear to be the case.  Best to ignore it, so I'll take my own advice :)

Is there such a thing as an ignore list on the forum? Or is this a personal list?

That would certainly make the forum more pleasant...

Edit: found out how

Glad you found it!  It's buried.  I have a few added already.  Really cleans things up.

Davnasty

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #173 on: July 17, 2019, 08:52:24 AM »
The users who warn us that criticism of Trump will lead to his election are doing so to silence criticism. They're hoping your fear of another term will keep your mouth shut and normalize what most Americans view as unacceptable ideology. You'll notice that whatever the matter of discussion, they will take the farthest right position (even with ostensibly moderate positions, like "maybe" supporting Biden...  the topic there is which DNC they prefer, so naturally they've chosen the one the farthest to the right).  Their existence on this forum is to push right wherever and whenever possible.  You'll notice also that they have generic user names, don't engage in discussions constructively or in good faith, and gloat when actual users grow frustrated with engaging with them and stop posting. They make frequent and vague appeals to moderators to help them police the tone of conversations whenever the tone is open criticism of far right ideology. They'll post on-topic occasionally to maintain a thin veneer of plausibility to the moderator so that they continue to post.

This strategy plays out in many other fora and other social media platforms. It's a campaign.

I agree with the bolded, however users like Laserjet didn't warn us of criticizing Trump, he warned of saying that it is ok to disrespect or abuse Trump voters and I agree. I don't think it's ok to disrespect and abuse people when we don't know why they made the choice they did.

Sure, it seems logical to say Trump is this and if you support Trump, you support this, but it can be more complex than that. Many voters are simply ignorant of what's going on. Their family, friends, and preferred media sources are telling them they're good, logical people who have come to the correct conclusion so they believe it to be true. Never mind that they've never read more than a headline. Then there's people who know Trump is bad but think the alternative is worse. Again, they can be dead wrong and still believe it sincerely.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #174 on: July 17, 2019, 08:53:16 AM »
The users who warn us that criticism of Trump will lead to his election are doing so to silence criticism. They're hoping your fear of another term will keep your mouth shut and normalize what most Americans view as unacceptable ideology. You'll notice that whatever the matter of discussion, they will take the farthest right position (even with ostensibly moderate positions, like "maybe" supporting Biden...  the topic there is which DNC they prefer, so naturally they've chosen the one the farthest to the right).  Their existence on this forum is to push right wherever and whenever possible.  You'll notice also that they have generic user names, don't engage in discussions constructively or in good faith, and gloat when actual users grow frustrated with engaging with them and stop posting. They make frequent and vague appeals to moderators to help them police the tone of conversations whenever the tone is open criticism of far right ideology. They'll post on-topic occasionally to maintain a thin veneer of plausibility to the moderator so that they continue to post.

This strategy plays out in many other fora and other social media platforms. It's a campaign.

Quite the psycho babble strawman you have created.  Nobody that I've seen in my limited time here seems to care about criticism of Trump on any personal level or criticism of "right wing ideology."  The issue is when that supposed criticism of Trump extends to "anyone who likes Trump deserves to be abused and name called."

And if you don't like being labeled, abused, and name called, then apparently you are a right wing special operative here only to campaign for Trump!  Goodness.

And yes, I would expect moderate to right leaning posters here to consider the most moderate and right leaning Democrat candidates like Biden.  Is that surprising?  I'm definitely a moderate and Biden is the only candidate I'd consider from the DNC field at the moment.  I'm sorry that bothers you so much.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #175 on: July 17, 2019, 08:59:40 AM »
The users who warn us that criticism of Trump will lead to his election are doing so to silence criticism. They're hoping your fear of another term will keep your mouth shut and normalize what most Americans view as unacceptable ideology. You'll notice that whatever the matter of discussion, they will take the farthest right position (even with ostensibly moderate positions, like "maybe" supporting Biden...  the topic there is which DNC they prefer, so naturally they've chosen the one the farthest to the right).  Their existence on this forum is to push right wherever and whenever possible.  You'll notice also that they have generic user names, don't engage in discussions constructively or in good faith, and gloat when actual users grow frustrated with engaging with them and stop posting. They make frequent and vague appeals to moderators to help them police the tone of conversations whenever the tone is open criticism of far right ideology. They'll post on-topic occasionally to maintain a thin veneer of plausibility to the moderator so that they continue to post.

This strategy plays out in many other fora and other social media platforms. It's a campaign.

I agree with the bolded, however users like Laserjet didn't warn us of criticizing Trump, he warned of saying that it is ok to disrespect or abuse Trump voters and I agree. I don't think it's ok to disrespect and abuse people when we don't know why they made the choice they did.

Sure, it seems logical to say Trump is this and if you support Trump, you support this, but it can be more complex than that. Many voters are simply ignorant of what's going on. Their family, friends, and preferred media sources are telling them they're good, logical people who have come to the correct conclusion so they believe it to be true. Never mind that they've never read more than a headline. Then there's people who know Trump is bad but think the alternative is worse. Again, they can be dead wrong and still believe it sincerely.

At least you are saying it in a much nicer way.  But still kind of repeating the same attacks.  If you don't like my preferred worldviews, then you are ignorant, brainwashed, and too dumb to read past a headline.  I don't think it's healthy to view people this way and it makes debate nearly impossible when that's your starting point.  Which is why I would never debate actual politics here, there is too much hate and animosity.  I'd much prefer to bullshit about blenders.  So I'll remind myself again to take my own advice and move on from this nonsense.  Anyone interested in a Vitamix?

runbikerun

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #176 on: July 17, 2019, 09:03:13 AM »
This was the toned-down version already, but point taken. I'll do my best to remain as civil as possible.

For what it's worth, I suspect Trump is in for a mauling in 2020. He got in thanks to an incredible degree of apathy in 2016, and still lost the popular vote by three million. That apathy is gone for a generation at least: I doubt anyone is going to be seriously pulling the "plague-on-both-your-houses" schtick this time round, and so I'm quietly confident that there will be a sizeable wave of voters turning out to make sure he goes - not a million miles from the French presidential election in the 2000s, where apathy saw Jean Marie Le Pen get through the runoff to the final vote, but disgust saw him get absolutely shellacked by a coalition of just about everyone else.

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #177 on: July 17, 2019, 09:10:37 AM »
The users who warn us that criticism of Trump will lead to his election are doing so to silence criticism. They're hoping your fear of another term will keep your mouth shut and normalize what most Americans view as unacceptable ideology. You'll notice that whatever the matter of discussion, they will take the farthest right position (even with ostensibly moderate positions, like "maybe" supporting Biden...  the topic there is which DNC they prefer, so naturally they've chosen the one the farthest to the right).  Their existence on this forum is to push right wherever and whenever possible.  You'll notice also that they have generic user names, don't engage in discussions constructively or in good faith, and gloat when actual users grow frustrated with engaging with them and stop posting. They make frequent and vague appeals to moderators to help them police the tone of conversations whenever the tone is open criticism of far right ideology. They'll post on-topic occasionally to maintain a thin veneer of plausibility to the moderator so that they continue to post.

This strategy plays out in many other fora and other social media platforms. It's a campaign.

I agree with the bolded, however users like Laserjet didn't warn us of criticizing Trump, he warned of saying that it is ok to disrespect or abuse Trump voters and I agree. I don't think it's ok to disrespect and abuse people when we don't know why they made the choice they did.

Sure, it seems logical to say Trump is this and if you support Trump, you support this, but it can be more complex than that. Many voters are simply ignorant of what's going on. Their family, friends, and preferred media sources are telling them they're good, logical people who have come to the correct conclusion so they believe it to be true. Never mind that they've never read more than a headline. Then there's people who know Trump is bad but think the alternative is worse. Again, they can be dead wrong and still believe it sincerely.

At least you are saying it in a much nicer way.  But still kind of repeating the same attacks.  If you don't like my preferred worldviews, then you are ignorant, brainwashed, and too dumb to read past a headline.  I don't think it's healthy to view people this way and it makes debate nearly impossible when that's your starting point.  Which is why I would never debate actual politics here, there is too much hate and animosity.  I'd much prefer to bullshit about blenders.  So I'll remind myself again to take my own advice and move on from this nonsense.

I realize the way I've worded it is still going to offend Trump voters but I'm also trying to have an honest conversation with the people who think it's ok to be abusive, that's the mind I want to change right now. One of the difficulties of an open forum I suppose. What I honestly think is that the vast majority of Trump voters have been lied to and believed it in one way or another but If I was having a one on one with a Trump supporter I would broach the subject differently.

And I didn't call anyone brainwashed or dumb. So often when someone takes offense at a word (wrong, ignorant) they turn it into an even worse word (brainwashed, dumb) to justify their own offense. Not reading past a headline is perfectly normal human behavior. It might be due to lack of caring or avoidance of cognitive dissonance, but it doesn't make someone dumb.


EricL

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #178 on: July 17, 2019, 09:13:19 AM »
I'm not gonna miss Sol that much.  I distrust anyone with a crusader's self righteous zeal that can't question their own views - Fundamentalist Christians, Capitalists, Democrats, Progressives, Communists, Wahabbists, Republicans, Fascists, Feminists, SJWs, 2nd Amendment haters, Gun nuts - all of them.   Sol was just another.  Plenty rage quit just like him. But there's and there's plenty more just like him and plenty more to replace him. 

It might be because I'm sour about American liberals who want to rage quit America like Sol rage quit the board.  They should leave.  They should GTFO and don't let the door hit them in the ass.  It's the only thing I agree with Trump on.  We got thousands of immigrants ready and willing to take their place piling up on our border.  Or these liberals can show some spine and stay and fight for the America they want. 

Davnasty

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #179 on: July 17, 2019, 09:18:27 AM »
I'm not gonna miss Sol that much.  I distrust anyone with a crusader's self righteous zeal that can't question their own views - Fundamentalist Christians, Capitalists, Democrats, Progressives, Communists, Wahabbists, Republicans, Fascists, Feminists, SJWs, 2nd Amendment haters, Gun nuts - all of them.   Sol was just another.  Plenty rage quit just like him. But there's and there's plenty more just like him and plenty more to replace him. 

It might be because I'm sour about American liberals who want to rage quit America like Sol rage quit the board.  They should leave.  They should GTFO and don't let the door hit them in the ass.  It's the only thing I agree with Trump on. .   We got thousands of immigrants ready and willing to take their place piling up on our border.  Or these liberals can show some spine and stay and fight for the America they want.

Assuming you're referring to Trump's comment to congresswomen, let's remember they don't actually hate America, that's part of Trump's constructed narrative too. Someone who wants to quit doesn't run for office. And their "complaining" is exactly what a politician should be doing. Find a problem, inform the people, work to fix problem.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #180 on: July 17, 2019, 09:19:31 AM »
The users who warn us that criticism of Trump will lead to his election are doing so to silence criticism. They're hoping your fear of another term will keep your mouth shut and normalize what most Americans view as unacceptable ideology. You'll notice that whatever the matter of discussion, they will take the farthest right position (even with ostensibly moderate positions, like "maybe" supporting Biden...  the topic there is which DNC they prefer, so naturally they've chosen the one the farthest to the right).  Their existence on this forum is to push right wherever and whenever possible.  You'll notice also that they have generic user names, don't engage in discussions constructively or in good faith, and gloat when actual users grow frustrated with engaging with them and stop posting. They make frequent and vague appeals to moderators to help them police the tone of conversations whenever the tone is open criticism of far right ideology. They'll post on-topic occasionally to maintain a thin veneer of plausibility to the moderator so that they continue to post.

This strategy plays out in many other fora and other social media platforms. It's a campaign.

I agree with the bolded, however users like Laserjet didn't warn us of criticizing Trump, he warned of saying that it is ok to disrespect or abuse Trump voters and I agree. I don't think it's ok to disrespect and abuse people when we don't know why they made the choice they did.

Sure, it seems logical to say Trump is this and if you support Trump, you support this, but it can be more complex than that. Many voters are simply ignorant of what's going on. Their family, friends, and preferred media sources are telling them they're good, logical people who have come to the correct conclusion so they believe it to be true. Never mind that they've never read more than a headline. Then there's people who know Trump is bad but think the alternative is worse. Again, they can be dead wrong and still believe it sincerely.

At least you are saying it in a much nicer way.  But still kind of repeating the same attacks.  If you don't like my preferred worldviews, then you are ignorant, brainwashed, and too dumb to read past a headline.  I don't think it's healthy to view people this way and it makes debate nearly impossible when that's your starting point.  Which is why I would never debate actual politics here, there is too much hate and animosity.  I'd much prefer to bullshit about blenders.  So I'll remind myself again to take my own advice and move on from this nonsense.

I realize the way I've worded it is still going to offend Trump voters but I'm also trying to have an honest conversation with the people who think it's ok to be abusive, that's the mind I want to change right now. One of the difficulties of an open forum I suppose. What I honestly think is that the vast majority of Trump voters have been lied to and believed it in one way or another but If I was having a one on one with a Trump supporter I would broach the subject differently.

And I didn't call anyone brainwashed or dumb. So often when someone takes offense at a word (wrong, ignorant) they turn it into an even worse word (brainwashed, dumb) to justify their own offense. Not reading past a headline is perfectly normal human behavior. It might be due to lack of caring or avoidance of cognitive dissonance, but it doesn't make someone dumb.

"preferred media sources are telling them they're good, logical people who have come to the correct conclusion so they believe it to be true." - that sounds like "brainwashed" to me.  And my point was that it came off as simply sugar coated.  But I get what you are saying.  It's all good.

However, I am finished with this thread, it's not why I'm here.  Just an FYI if you do decide to respond - I probably won't be replying back on the topic anymore (I think we beat it to death already).  Enjoy this beautiful Wednesday, I'm heading out for a bike ride.

OurTown

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #181 on: July 17, 2019, 09:26:42 AM »
Jesus.  Look, there's the old-fashioned type of conservatism that emphasized individual freedom and personal responsibility.  Low taxes.  Strong national defense.  Many of us lead our own personal financial lives in accord with this conservative mindset.  Self sufficiency and self reliance.  No problem, we may not all agree as to whether this mindset is best for society as a whole, but we can certainly have a civil discussion.  I personally think we need certain public services and a sufficient social safety net but others may civilly disagree with me and that's fine.

Then, there's another type of conservatism.  Racism.  Xenophobia.  Religious intolerance.  Control over women's reproduction.  Homophobia / transphobia.  Children in cages.  Gun fetishes.  And let's top it off by putting a fake celebrity douchebag in the white house.  Guys, this idiot has been a fake celebrity since the 80s, come on!  So with respect to this version of conservatism, thanks but no thanks.  This stuff isn't even really conservative, it's just wrong.  Why can't we have a civil conversation?  Because one side has sailed off the edge of the map. 

Cool Friend

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #182 on: July 17, 2019, 09:27:20 AM »
The users who warn us that criticism of Trump will lead to his election are doing so to silence criticism. They're hoping your fear of another term will keep your mouth shut and normalize what most Americans view as unacceptable ideology. You'll notice that whatever the matter of discussion, they will take the farthest right position (even with ostensibly moderate positions, like "maybe" supporting Biden...  the topic there is which DNC they prefer, so naturally they've chosen the one the farthest to the right).  Their existence on this forum is to push right wherever and whenever possible.  You'll notice also that they have generic user names, don't engage in discussions constructively or in good faith, and gloat when actual users grow frustrated with engaging with them and stop posting. They make frequent and vague appeals to moderators to help them police the tone of conversations whenever the tone is open criticism of far right ideology. They'll post on-topic occasionally to maintain a thin veneer of plausibility to the moderator so that they continue to post.

This strategy plays out in many other fora and other social media platforms. It's a campaign.

Nobody that I've seen in my limited time here seems to care about criticism of Trump on any personal level or criticism of "right wing ideology." 

Stick around.


Dicey

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #183 on: July 17, 2019, 09:29:02 AM »
I'm not gonna miss Sol that much.  I distrust anyone with a crusader's self righteous zeal that can't question their own views - Fundamentalist Christians, Capitalists, Democrats, Progressives, Communists, Wahabbists, Republicans, Fascists, Feminists, SJWs, 2nd Amendment haters, Gun nuts - all of them.   Sol was just another.  Plenty rage quit just like him. But there's and there's plenty more just like him and plenty more to replace him. 

It might be because I'm sour about American liberals who want to rage quit America like Sol rage quit the board.  They should leave.  They should GTFO and don't let the door hit them in the ass.  It's the only thing I agree with Trump on.  We got thousands of immigrants ready and willing to take their place piling up on our border.  Or these liberals can show some spine and stay and fight for the America they want.
I learned a LOT from sol, and I am none of those things on your list. If you had listed "Tolerant", maybe I would have made it, but being on this list is nothing I would ever aspire to, being tolerant and all.

Davnasty

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #184 on: July 17, 2019, 09:45:56 AM »
Why can't we have a civil conversation?  Because one side has sailed off the edge of the map.

I understand the sentiment and I have this feeling sometimes too but then I ask myself, what's the alternative? Is an uncivil conversation more productive? Do we just not talk at all?

Maybe it would better explain my thoughts on this to just say Darryl Davis is my hero.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 09:49:54 AM by Dabnasty »

EricL

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #185 on: July 17, 2019, 09:48:37 AM »
I'm not gonna miss Sol that much.  I distrust anyone with a crusader's self righteous zeal that can't question their own views - Fundamentalist Christians, Capitalists, Democrats, Progressives, Communists, Wahabbists, Republicans, Fascists, Feminists, SJWs, 2nd Amendment haters, Gun nuts - all of them.   Sol was just another.  Plenty rage quit just like him. But there's and there's plenty more just like him and plenty more to replace him. 

It might be because I'm sour about American liberals who want to rage quit America like Sol rage quit the board.  They should leave.  They should GTFO and don't let the door hit them in the ass.  It's the only thing I agree with Trump on. .   We got thousands of immigrants ready and willing to take their place piling up on our border.  Or these liberals can show some spine and stay and fight for the America they want.

Assuming you're referring to Trump's comment to congresswomen, let's remember they don't actually hate America, that's part of Trump's constructed narrative too. Someone who wants to quit doesn't run for office. And their "complaining" is exactly what a politician should be doing. Find a problem, inform the people, work to fix problem.

I'm not referring to that specifically.  But I've heard plenty of limousine liberals piss and moan about moving to Canada from the last election or if he wins the next.  Leave already.  And yeah, Trump's a piece of shit.  Him not getting us into WW III yet may be the only thing that contradicts that or it may be God's continued blessing of America.  But I don't trust him not to keep trying through arrogance or stupidity and I don't want to test God's patience.

Davnasty

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #186 on: July 17, 2019, 09:53:26 AM »
I'm not gonna miss Sol that much.  I distrust anyone with a crusader's self righteous zeal that can't question their own views - Fundamentalist Christians, Capitalists, Democrats, Progressives, Communists, Wahabbists, Republicans, Fascists, Feminists, SJWs, 2nd Amendment haters, Gun nuts - all of them.   Sol was just another.  Plenty rage quit just like him. But there's and there's plenty more just like him and plenty more to replace him. 

It might be because I'm sour about American liberals who want to rage quit America like Sol rage quit the board.  They should leave.  They should GTFO and don't let the door hit them in the ass.  It's the only thing I agree with Trump on. .   We got thousands of immigrants ready and willing to take their place piling up on our border.  Or these liberals can show some spine and stay and fight for the America they want.

Assuming you're referring to Trump's comment to congresswomen, let's remember they don't actually hate America, that's part of Trump's constructed narrative too. Someone who wants to quit doesn't run for office. And their "complaining" is exactly what a politician should be doing. Find a problem, inform the people, work to fix problem.

I'm not referring to that specifically.  But I've heard plenty of limousine liberals piss and moan about moving to Canada from the last election or if he wins the next.  Leave already.  And yeah, Trump's a piece of shit.  Him not getting us into WW III yet may be the only thing that contradicts that or it may be God's continued blessing of America.  But I don't trust him not to keep trying through arrogance or stupidity and I don't want to test God's patience.

Hell no, they can leave on November 4, 2020 if they like :) I guess I was confused because I don't recall Trump telling those people to leave but he talks so much he probably has at some point.

Kris

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #187 on: July 17, 2019, 09:55:06 AM »
This was the toned-down version already, but point taken. I'll do my best to remain as civil as possible.

For what it's worth, I suspect Trump is in for a mauling in 2020. He got in thanks to an incredible degree of apathy in 2016, and still lost the popular vote by three million. That apathy is gone for a generation at least: I doubt anyone is going to be seriously pulling the "plague-on-both-your-houses" schtick this time round, and so I'm quietly confident that there will be a sizeable wave of voters turning out to make sure he goes - not a million miles from the French presidential election in the 2000s, where apathy saw Jean Marie Le Pen get through the runoff to the final vote, but disgust saw him get absolutely shellacked by a coalition of just about everyone else.

Would that it were true.

For what it's worth, here's what I think is happening:

Looking at the Democratic slate of candidates for 2020, it seems apparent that at least one of the presidential nominee or VP picks will be a person of color. Very possibly, one of them will be a woman, too. Trump is ramping up the racism, sexism, and neo-birtherism now, because he knows that's what his supporters like/want/respond to. What he is doing now is building a new Hillary machine for them to hate -- a figurehead to spew all their bile and conspiracy theories at. Expect more and increasingly strident racism from him going forward, because the point is to create that space where any of the eventual candidates can just be plugged in. By the time the Democratic nomination is made, Trump's base -- and right-wing media, and his lackeys in the GOP -- will be primed and prepped to transfer all that hatred to whomever it ends up being. Instead of "Lock Her Up!" they'll just change the chant to "Send Them Back!"

And if the Democrats keep infighting, they will be fragmented and unable to rally behind their ticket.

The libertarians will keep thinking they're above all this and not bother to try to block Trump. Because, you know, both parties are the same.

And that's how we get Trump in 2020.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 09:57:05 AM by Kris »

former player

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #188 on: July 17, 2019, 09:57:38 AM »
I agree that because Trump is a racist, sexist shit doesn't make the people who vote for him the same.  What I never see is any reasoned justification for supporting those characteristics in Trump.  It's always "oh, they don't know because they only watch Fox News or talk to other Trump supporters/ don't read his tweets", or it's "I can put up with it for the tax cuts/deregulation/anti-immigrant stance".   Which gives Trump supporters/Republicans a free pass on the racism and the deaths of children at border posts and the anti-environment stuff that I'm not sure they deserve - deliberate ignorance and self-interest are not exactly admirable characteristics, are they?  And I never see any indication that there are any limits to what Trump voters will put up with, even with Trump consistently pushing the boundaries he gets almost no push back from anyone other than Democrats. 
 



GuitarStv

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #189 on: July 17, 2019, 10:05:17 AM »
They're not robbing the bank, they're driving the getaway car.

It's total complicity in the racist, sexist, homophobic, stuff . . . but at a slightly lower level than that of Trump.

They don't give a shit what happens in the bank.  They're going to drive that car and get paid handsomely.  If someone gets killed in the robbery . . . too bad, doesn't impact them.  But don't call 'em robbers.  Oh no.  That's unfair . . .

Just Joe

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #190 on: July 17, 2019, 10:09:44 AM »
We don't need to rely on presidential candidate debates to tell us anything about Biden or Trump.

The ACTIONS of both candidates are more important b/c as Trump (and other politicians before him) have shown - talk is very, very cheap.

I think we know that whatever Democrat might get elected with be pushed into a corner just like the GOP did with Obama. Truth and honor will be valueless in debates.

The GOP will resort to any tactic they need to in order to stifle the Democrats. Lying and cheating is fair play to the current GOP.

Look at Biden's track record. Look at Trump's track record. Don't given Trump too much credit for any of the current prosperity. That pre-dated him and is independent of him. Enough said.

My mind is made up. Anyone but Trump.

I'd be glad to see Sol back in the discussions. He can get pretty riled up but as long as it is in the Off-Topic section, rant away Sol! Be nice but rant if it has a point.

Davnasty

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #191 on: July 17, 2019, 10:22:37 AM »
I agree that because Trump is a racist, sexist shit doesn't make the people who vote for him the same.  What I never see is any reasoned justification for supporting those characteristics in Trump.  It's always "oh, they don't know because they only watch Fox News or talk to other Trump supporters/ don't read his tweets", or it's "I can put up with it for the tax cuts/deregulation/anti-immigrant stance".   Which gives Trump supporters/Republicans a free pass on the racism and the deaths of children at border posts and the anti-environment stuff that I'm not sure they deserve - deliberate ignorance and self-interest are not exactly admirable characteristics, are they?  And I never see any indication that there are any limits to what Trump voters will put up with, even with Trump consistently pushing the boundaries he gets almost no push back from anyone other than Democrats. 
 

No, but they are very common characteristics in humans regardless of who they vote for.

And I don't think it gives anyone a "pass" so to speak. I'm still willing to call them out for it but I think it's also important to remember that most people are not uncaring sociopaths. If you put a wounded/sick/hungry person right in front of them, they feel sympathy. It's just that when that person is far away and you can't see them, we process it differently. The brain has ways of shielding us from accepting how bad things are when they're not right in front of us. Once those walls are up, sometimes we deny even what's in front of our own eyes.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #192 on: July 17, 2019, 10:49:25 AM »
I think the fundamental moral dilemma for moderates is that both far wings of each parties are taking the respective parties hostage, leaving many people feeling unrepresented and casting a "fuck it" vote.

Trump obviously conducted a hostile takeover of the Republican Party (PBS's Frontline episode of "Trump's Road to the White House" is terrific).  He is doing conservative things like lowering taxes, nominating conservative judges, promoting de-regulation, etc.; but he is also a buffoon, as already documented in this thread, and he is not at all old school conservative (small government, budget reduction, etc.).

In my view, progressives are similarly undertaking a hostile takeover of the Democratic Party.  Their positions are so incredibly antithetical to many moderates' positions.  In no particular order:

(1) they support state-sponsored healthcare for undocumented immigrants (which every D candidate said they would do in the last debate, in an obvious attempt to pander to the progressive base);
(2) advocate for de facto open borders (as described by Mother Jones of all outlets -- https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/07/are-democrats-now-the-party-of-open-borders/ );
(3) unfairly describe wealthy entrepreneurs (according to Progressives, entrepreneurs "did not build" their businesses, which I take great offense to);
(4) want to raise taxes (when I already pay property tax, sales tax, gas tax, liquor tax, state income tax, municipal income tax, federal income tax, medicare tax, social security tax, and healthcare is basically a tax at this point);
(5) expand state-sponsored healthcare and, for some, remove private sector healthcare;
(6) forgive student loan debt (I had $159,000 in loans at the start of the year, and I disagree with this, as it does not solve the fundamental problem -- cost; although I guess this is a popular position because who doesn't want "free!");
(7) The constant, never-ending bashing of American history and achievement (just browsed the NYT to find today's latest: targeting the Apollo accomplishments as sexist -- https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/science/women-astronauts-nasa.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes )

I could go on. So one party is held hostage by Trump, the other by a progressive base that is antithetical to many moderate positions.

There are huge swaths of the middle of the country that do not support Trump or progressives. But when they are picking between the two, they will vote for the one who they think will do less harm to themselves individually.

On this note, I also think a huge problem, for democrats, is that they are kind of the boy who cried wolf. GWB was the devil, now he's revered by many. McCain was the devil, now he's widely revered. Romney was the devil and laughed off the stage for calling Russia our biggest threat, now he's a knowledgeable, noble statesman. I can see why many people just don't give a shit what labels the left throws at Trump.

Bottom line of this rant -- voting for one or the other is a "tacit approval" of everything they do is perhaps true, but it ignores the significant complexities of the matter.

GuitarStv

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #193 on: July 17, 2019, 11:06:54 AM »
GWB was the devil, now he's revered by many. McCain was the devil, now he's widely revered. Romney was the devil and laughed off the stage for calling Russia our biggest threat, now he's a knowledgeable, noble statesman. I can see why many people just don't give a shit what labels the left throws at Trump.

GWB was an idiot.  McCain wasn't a devil . . . although his running mate was also an idiot.  Nothing wrong with Romney (he invented Obamacare).

Who's laughing now about Russia with the president in Putin's back pocket?

:P

dandarc

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #194 on: July 17, 2019, 11:13:40 AM »
but he is also a buffoon
Honestly, I don't understand how this wasn't enough to stop a lot of seemingly reasonable people for voting for him in 2016. Not like the buffoon factor was an unknown before the primaries back then.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #195 on: July 17, 2019, 11:24:33 AM »
but he is also a buffoon
Honestly, I don't understand how this wasn't enough to stop a lot of seemingly reasonable people for voting for him in 2016. Not like the buffoon factor was an unknown before the primaries back then.
Agreed. Full transparency (not sure if I've said this in this particular thread), I voted for Hillary. But I think in reaction to Trump, the progressives have moved the party left (maybe it just seems that way because it's primary season), and now Hillary seems like quite a moderate in comparison.

I think this is what will shape 2020. How far left will the democratic candidate go? Because the buffoon factor wasn't enough to stop Trump four years ago.

DadJokes

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #196 on: July 17, 2019, 11:35:42 AM »
I think the fundamental moral dilemma for moderates is that both far wings of each parties are taking the respective parties hostage, leaving many people feeling unrepresented and casting a "fuck it" vote.

Trump obviously conducted a hostile takeover of the Republican Party (PBS's Frontline episode of "Trump's Road to the White House" is terrific).  He is doing conservative things like lowering taxes, nominating conservative judges, promoting de-regulation, etc.; but he is also a buffoon, as already documented in this thread, and he is not at all old school conservative (small government, budget reduction, etc.).

In my view, progressives are similarly undertaking a hostile takeover of the Democratic Party.  Their positions are so incredibly antithetical to many moderates' positions.  In no particular order:

(1) they support state-sponsored healthcare for undocumented immigrants (which every D candidate said they would do in the last debate, in an obvious attempt to pander to the progressive base);
(2) advocate for de facto open borders (as described by Mother Jones of all outlets -- https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/07/are-democrats-now-the-party-of-open-borders/ );
(3) unfairly describe wealthy entrepreneurs (according to Progressives, entrepreneurs "did not build" their businesses, which I take great offense to);
(4) want to raise taxes (when I already pay property tax, sales tax, gas tax, liquor tax, state income tax, municipal income tax, federal income tax, medicare tax, social security tax, and healthcare is basically a tax at this point);
(5) expand state-sponsored healthcare and, for some, remove private sector healthcare;
(6) forgive student loan debt (I had $159,000 in loans at the start of the year, and I disagree with this, as it does not solve the fundamental problem -- cost; although I guess this is a popular position because who doesn't want "free!");
(7) The constant, never-ending bashing of American history and achievement (just browsed the NYT to find today's latest: targeting the Apollo accomplishments as sexist -- https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/science/women-astronauts-nasa.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes )

I could go on. So one party is held hostage by Trump, the other by a progressive base that is antithetical to many moderate positions.

There are huge swaths of the middle of the country that do not support Trump or progressives. But when they are picking between the two, they will vote for the one who they think will do less harm to themselves individually.

On this note, I also think a huge problem, for democrats, is that they are kind of the boy who cried wolf. GWB was the devil, now he's revered by many. McCain was the devil, now he's widely revered. Romney was the devil and laughed off the stage for calling Russia our biggest threat, now he's a knowledgeable, noble statesman. I can see why many people just don't give a shit what labels the left throws at Trump.

Bottom line of this rant -- voting for one or the other is a "tacit approval" of everything they do is perhaps true, but it ignores the significant complexities of the matter.

That was about as well as I think the whole situation can be put.

And it's not like the Republican Party leadership wanted Trump to be nominated. They openly did everything they could to prevent him from getting the nomination (similar to how the DNC secretly did everything they could to make sure Clinton was the Democrat nominee). Plenty of well-known conservatives called themselves "never Trumpers." Whether or not they came around by November is a different story. I didn't vote for him in 2016 and certainly won't vote for him in 2020 either, but the progressives on the left have made it equally difficult to consider the Democrat Party.

But constantly crying fascism got old during GWB's presidency, and anyone that's been around long enough to remember that is probably tired of hearing it by now. I remember having conversations with people who legitimately thought Bush would refuse to surrender power after his second term. And I see some of the same comments now.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 11:41:11 AM by DadJokes »

Omy

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #197 on: July 17, 2019, 11:46:19 AM »
I don't remember GWB ever "joking" about being president for 10 or 12 more years. Or saying that his followers would start a civil war if he doesn't get re-elected. Or being a mysogynistic, racist, lying criminal.

GWB looks like a saint compared to the current president.

Kris

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #198 on: July 17, 2019, 11:50:00 AM »
but he is also a buffoon
Honestly, I don't understand how this wasn't enough to stop a lot of seemingly reasonable people for voting for him in 2016. Not like the buffoon factor was an unknown before the primaries back then.
Agreed. Full transparency (not sure if I've said this in this particular thread), I voted for Hillary. But I think in reaction to Trump, the progressives have moved the party left (maybe it just seems that way because it's primary season), and now Hillary seems like quite a moderate in comparison.

I think this is what will shape 2020. How far left will the democratic candidate go? Because the buffoon factor wasn't enough to stop Trump four years ago.

She always was a moderate. It's just that the right has taken to labeling pretty much everyone on the other side a far-left radical socialist, no matter what the reality.

DadJokes

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #199 on: July 17, 2019, 12:18:02 PM »
I don't remember GWB ever "joking" about being president for 10 or 12 more years. Or saying that his followers would start a civil war if he doesn't get re-elected. Or being a mysogynistic, racist, lying criminal.

GWB looks like a saint compared to the current president.

Then you have a very different view of Bush than the reality of his time in office. People wanted him arrested for war crimes. The worst I've heard about Trump so far is impeachment, though the Hitler references started much earlier in his presidency than they did for Bush.

If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier... as long as I'm the dictator. -GWB

It was reported that Obama said something along the lines of it being easier to be president of China than of the USA to Chinese officials (so that can be taken with a grain of salt). In either case, everyone says dumb shit. Trump seems to say a lot more of it, but that doesn't change the fact that people will always overreact to or ignore whatever is said, depending on party affiliation.