Author Topic: where is sol?  (Read 19946 times)

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2019, 10:27:15 AM »
However, in politics, the likelihood of an incompetent criminal being elected is *directly* proportional to how clueless the public is and how easily swayed they are by irresponsible, absurdist, extremist discourse. As evidenced across the world right now.

Politics isn't the problem, the public not understanding politics is the problem.

You just can't help it, can you?  We aren't even in off-topic.  But you just have to throw daggers at people over politics.  I think this is EXACTLY the political discourse this site does NOT need.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2019, 12:37:49 PM »

Iíve spent many, many hours in political advocacy and done more in that realm than many.


Thank you for your service!


In the end, I was fortunate enough to have my own moment of clarity. I came to the difficult conclusion that what I was doing was ineffective and probably counterproductive.

That is a tough thing to realize. Much respect.

Curious - was it counterproductive regarding the original goals you were working for, or counterproductive regarding your personal life, or counterproductive simply in the sense that other activities would have more effect (aka, the opportunity cost wasn't worth it)?

I have made mistakes in my civic efforts. One of the most successful turned out to have bad effects. Also I over-volunteered for several years, then went into what I called "volunteering remission" before slowly reactivating. You have my sympathy in any of the cases!


Even though you could argue that at the time my ďsideĒ was winning. I couldnít and still canít reconcile myself to the enormous amount of time and resources it took to move the needle. As I indicated in the post above I donít question that the needle can be moved, I question the effort needed to do so especially as compared to other available alternatives.


Thanks for clarifying this point. Upthread, you sounded as if you thought no one could make a difference.

I do think each person gets to decide for themselves how much they do or give outside of themelves. Some have more choice than others, but you get to make choices in the large range available to you. No hard feelings from me, except if someone says "you can't" or "you shouldn't" and discourages people who can indeed make a difference.

I do think people skills and circumstances differ greatly... and that there are many ways of being a good person in the world. If yours are in activities that are not labeled politics, that's fine. Do the things where you can see and feel the impact you have.

I often find that when people had a discouraging experience, they overstate the barriers. My personal opinion is that that is discouraging to others. I hope I'm not offensive in belaboring the point. My goal isn't to urge you to do something different, it's to make sure others do something whenever they are ready.

Power, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. (Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now!)   :)



One of the myriad problems I have with the framing of the debate is it does tend to be framed as a set of (false) binary choices. You are either Republican OR Democrat. You are either with us OR youíre with the evil ďthem.Ē You either are involved in politics OR you are letting your community fall into disarray. In my opinion thatís a false dichotomy: you can completely reject politics AND do great things for your community

Strongly argree. Great points.

Thanks for yet another thought provoking post.

In answer to your question regarding what drove my views on politics, it was primarily the opportunity cost. It was that dual-facepalm moment when I looked back at the time I had spent and realized that it really was an utter waste and that I could have done so much more elsewhere . I think you have a good point that personal adversity can drive people to more adamant positions than are warranted. And perhaps thatís the case with me. At this point though Iím really more interested in being apolitical than spending significant amounts of my time advocating against politics.

People believe what they want to believe and tell themselves comfortable lies when reality doesnít match their preferred narrative.

Laserjet3051

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2019, 01:57:29 PM »
He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2019, 02:00:08 PM »
He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

ketchup

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2019, 03:19:18 PM »
I miss sol, too.  I didn't always agree with everything he said, but I tended to enjoy reading how he said it.  At the very least, every anti-fancypants-blender tirade was gold (and this is from someone with a semi-fancypants $80 blender at home).

He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.
Ehh... I'd throw some "Both-sides-ism" on that.  I won't drag this further into the weeds with examples, but I've definitely seen this on both sides of the aisle in my personal life.

FIREstache

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2019, 03:41:07 PM »
He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

Well, I didn't want to say anything negative myself, but the comments from the above posters match what I had been thinking, so I just feel I should say that I agree with them.

GuitarStv

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2019, 05:33:47 PM »
and this is from someone with a semi-fancypants $80 blender at home

JUDAS!

robartsd

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2019, 05:47:24 PM »
I miss sol, too.  I didn't always agree with everything he said, but I tended to enjoy reading how he said it.  At the very least, every anti-fancypants-blender tirade was gold (and this is from someone with a semi-fancypants $80 blender at home).
As a Vitamix owner I agree! I still hold that I"m happy with my Vitamix purchase. I also have fancypants cookware (regret purchase) and a dealership car (semi-regret purchase). All purchased before reading MMM.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2019, 06:38:34 PM »
He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

Well, I didn't want to say anything negative myself, but the comments from the above posters match what I had been thinking, so I just feel I should say that I agree with them.

Ditto.  All the more reason to dump off-topic and political threads.  It's better when nobody knows or cares about political affiliation.

Kris

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2019, 06:40:22 PM »
He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

Well, I didn't want to say anything negative myself, but the comments from the above posters match what I had been thinking, so I just feel I should say that I agree with them.

Ditto.  All the more reason to dump off-topic and political threads.  It's better when nobody knows or cares about political affiliation.

Please. Political affiliation will always seep out.

This way, at least there is a place for it.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2019, 06:40:37 PM »
I miss sol, too.  I didn't always agree with everything he said, but I tended to enjoy reading how he said it.  At the very least, every anti-fancypants-blender tirade was gold (and this is from someone with a semi-fancypants $80 blender at home).
As a Vitamix owner I agree! I still hold that I"m happy with my Vitamix purchase. I also have fancypants cookware (regret purchase) and a dealership car (semi-regret purchase). All purchased before reading MMM.

Now I feel stupid for owning a Blendtec.  I figured it would come in handy if I ever needed to blend an iPhone.  Wish I could read these blender rants!  I'm not up for trying to find them, though.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #111 on: July 15, 2019, 06:42:38 PM »
He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

Well, I didn't want to say anything negative myself, but the comments from the above posters match what I had been thinking, so I just feel I should say that I agree with them.

Ditto.  All the more reason to dump off-topic and political threads.  It's better when nobody knows or cares about political affiliation.

Please. Political affiliation will always seep out.

This way, at least there is a place for it.

Of course, but if there is a culture of it being off limits, maybe we could maintain civility?  The forum just lost a very popular poster over it, which seems proof enough that it's probably not a good idea to have fiery discussions about politics.  Too many people don't seem capable of handling it.  This is a FIRE blog, I would think if people want to scream at each other over politics and say nasty things, there surely must be more appropriate venues?

BicycleB

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #112 on: July 15, 2019, 08:08:53 PM »
You are right that people shouldn't scream at each other and say nasty things. That's why the forum rules exist. Which say not to scream at each other and say nasty things.

Why have a rule "don't talk about politics" when a rule "don't talk about politics rudely" would suffice?


lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2019, 09:00:14 PM »
Of course, but if there is a culture of it being off limits, maybe we could maintain civility?  The forum just lost a very popular poster over it, which seems proof enough that it's probably not a good idea to have fiery discussions about politics.  Too many people don't seem capable of handling it.
(emphasis mine)
It's especially interesting to me that people who ostensibly have the self-restraint to save >50% of their net income cannot control their emotions in a political discussion. It's insane how primordial political intuitions are.

BTDretire

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #114 on: July 15, 2019, 09:35:13 PM »
He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

Well, I didn't want to say anything negative myself, but the comments from the above posters match what I had been thinking, so I just feel I should say that I agree with them.

Ditto.  All the more reason to dump off-topic and political threads.  It's better when nobody knows or cares about political affiliation.

Please. Political affiliation will always seep out.

This way, at least there is a place for it.

Of course, but if there is a culture of it being off limits, maybe we could maintain civility?  The forum just lost a very popular poster over it, which seems proof enough that it's probably not a good idea to have fiery discussions about politics.  Too many people don't seem capable of handling it.  This is a FIRE blog, I would think if people want to scream at each other over politics and say nasty things, there surely must be more appropriate venues?
Wait! We didn't lose sol over a fiery discussions about politics.
 He left because of a simple statement,
"The big concern for divorce is that new boyfriends and step-dads, in particular, can be abusive and predatory."
This comment is what sol quoted and came unglued about.
 Breaking it down, "The big concern for divorce, (new boyfriends and step-dads), it may be a concern, whether it is the big concern is up for debate. and then "new boyfriends and step-dads, in particular, can be abusive and predatory." The important word here, is can. Yes, they can be, they aren't always, and it's probably a low percentage that are.
  I suspect a million people could read that and go on to the next post without anymore thought than, it's a shame that could happen, but sol had some memory that surfaced and this is how he expressed it.
 Nobodies problem but sol's.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2019, 10:01:47 PM »
Yeah. That's a strange thing to get worked up over.

former player

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #116 on: July 16, 2019, 01:44:13 AM »
Unfortunately both sol and the maker of the statement doubled down.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #117 on: July 16, 2019, 06:59:03 AM »
He was obviously an intelligent individual.Unfortunately for him, he couldn't help but bash on conservatives every opportunity he got by calling them sexist, bigots, misogynists, or racist immediately. It was tired, pedantic, and was not constructive conversation.

Absolutely agree. And we are well aware that he is not the only one here with such "credentials."

From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

Well, I didn't want to say anything negative myself, but the comments from the above posters match what I had been thinking, so I just feel I should say that I agree with them.

Ditto.  All the more reason to dump off-topic and political threads.  It's better when nobody knows or cares about political affiliation.

Please. Political affiliation will always seep out.

This way, at least there is a place for it.

Of course, but if there is a culture of it being off limits, maybe we could maintain civility?  The forum just lost a very popular poster over it, which seems proof enough that it's probably not a good idea to have fiery discussions about politics.  Too many people don't seem capable of handling it.  This is a FIRE blog, I would think if people want to scream at each other over politics and say nasty things, there surely must be more appropriate venues?
Wait! We didn't lose sol over a fiery discussions about politics.
 He left because of a simple statement,
"The big concern for divorce is that new boyfriends and step-dads, in particular, can be abusive and predatory."
This comment is what sol quoted and came unglued about.
 Breaking it down, "The big concern for divorce, (new boyfriends and step-dads), it may be a concern, whether it is the big concern is up for debate. and then "new boyfriends and step-dads, in particular, can be abusive and predatory." The important word here, is can. Yes, they can be, they aren't always, and it's probably a low percentage that are.
  I suspect a million people could read that and go on to the next post without anymore thought than, it's a shame that could happen, but sol had some memory that surfaced and this is how he expressed it.
 Nobodies problem but sol's.

Politics aside, I made the comment that "off topic" in general doesn't seem to be working with this community.  If I read correctly, Sol went off on a politically charged rant over the above non-political statement.  I've read through a bit of the conversations in off-topic, notably the political ones, and it's such a mess.  Not all of it, of course, but enough of it.

robartsd

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #118 on: July 16, 2019, 09:59:07 AM »
I miss sol, too.  I didn't always agree with everything he said, but I tended to enjoy reading how he said it.  At the very least, every anti-fancypants-blender tirade was gold (and this is from someone with a semi-fancypants $80 blender at home).
As a Vitamix owner I agree! I still hold that I"m happy with my Vitamix purchase. I also have fancypants cookware (regret purchase) and a dealership car (semi-regret purchase). All purchased before reading MMM.

Now I feel stupid for owning a Blendtec.  I figured it would come in handy if I ever needed to blend an iPhone.  Wish I could read these blender rants!  I'm not up for trying to find them, though.
Sol would say you're right to feel stupid about purchasing a Blendtec. It wasn't so much that each rant was gold, but that it seemed you couldn't mention Vitamix on the forum without Sol commenting about how stupid it is. Here's a few posts:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/msg1620399/#msg1620399
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/buy-it-for-life!/msg1336183/#msg1336183
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/buy-it-for-life!/msg1336763/#msg1336763
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/just-scored-a-vitamix-on-craigslist/msg1930163/#msg1930163


fuzzy math

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #119 on: July 16, 2019, 10:15:23 AM »

Sol's comment was no more political than the other statement was. Child abuse is not a hot political topic that one party has taken up over the other.

Edit: because derp
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 09:38:20 AM by fuzzy math »

Dicey

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #120 on: July 16, 2019, 10:20:28 AM »
Wow! Three pages and nobody's thought to just ask the mods if sol's been banned? I can fix that. Please stand by for further updates.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 10:22:38 AM by Dicey »

fuzzy math

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #121 on: July 16, 2019, 10:23:47 AM »
In the other thread it was mentioned that sol had been spoken to privately, so I'm assuming he received at least a temporary ban. I can't imagine that the mods would have permanently banned him for a one time offense. others have only been banned for repeated trolling.

He appeared to be done with the forum according to his last post. As a fellow hothead, I can confirm its really hard to come crawling back after making such a grand statement.

dougules

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #122 on: July 16, 2019, 11:15:57 AM »
Wow! Three pages and nobody's thought to just ask the mods if sol's been banned? I can fix that. Please stand by for further updates.

I know.  I wonder if mods (like @arebelspy) are willing to comment publicly or not as to his status.   His comments made it look like he'd just decided to leave.

On some level it's fitting that a thread about sol's whereabouts has turned into 3 pages of heated debate. 

runbikerun

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #123 on: July 16, 2019, 11:51:09 AM »
I feel it should be pointed out in sol's absence:

Political opinions are not entitled to a polite hearing. The reason political threads are becoming increasingly rancorous is because a small group of posters are doubling down on their support of Trump even as his actions and declarations have become progressively more indefensible. The brickbats those posters have been getting are not the result of a boorish attitude to conservatism: they're the result of an entirely justifiable disgust with an utterly morally bankrupt abandonment of basic standards of governance. He's corrupt, racist, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, and misogynistic; he's on tape boasting about committing sexual assault; and he was absolutely fine with the Saudis dismembering an American resident with a bone saw while the man was still alive. The posters still supporting him are not owed any politeness.

Padonak

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #124 on: July 16, 2019, 11:57:07 AM »
I don't care much about sol, but I keep checking  @2Birds1Stone 's journal for updates.

cowpuncher10

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #125 on: July 16, 2019, 12:22:56 PM »
I feel it should be pointed out in sol's absence:

Political opinions are not entitled to a polite hearing. The reason political threads are becoming increasingly rancorous is because a small group of posters are doubling down on their support of Trump even as his actions and declarations have become progressively more indefensible. The brickbats those posters have been getting are not the result of a boorish attitude to conservatism: they're the result of an entirely justifiable disgust with an utterly morally bankrupt abandonment of basic standards of governance. He's corrupt, racist, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, and misogynistic; he's on tape boasting about committing sexual assault; and he was absolutely fine with the Saudis dismembering an American resident with a bone saw while the man was still alive. The posters still supporting him are not owed any politeness.

Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Kris

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #126 on: July 16, 2019, 12:24:58 PM »
I feel it should be pointed out in sol's absence:

Political opinions are not entitled to a polite hearing. The reason political threads are becoming increasingly rancorous is because a small group of posters are doubling down on their support of Trump even as his actions and declarations have become progressively more indefensible. The brickbats those posters have been getting are not the result of a boorish attitude to conservatism: they're the result of an entirely justifiable disgust with an utterly morally bankrupt abandonment of basic standards of governance. He's corrupt, racist, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, and misogynistic; he's on tape boasting about committing sexual assault; and he was absolutely fine with the Saudis dismembering an American resident with a bone saw while the man was still alive. The posters still supporting him are not owed any politeness.

Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Maybe not. But it seems as though complete indifference to these things is. At least in 2019.

MDM

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #127 on: July 16, 2019, 12:26:10 PM »
I feel it should be pointed out in sol's absence:

Political opinions are not entitled to a polite hearing. The reason political threads are becoming increasingly rancorous is because a small group of posters are doubling down on their support of Trump even as his actions and declarations have become progressively more indefensible. The brickbats those posters have been getting are not the result of a boorish attitude to conservatism: they're the result of an entirely justifiable disgust with an utterly morally bankrupt abandonment of basic standards of governance. He's corrupt, racist, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, and misogynistic; he's on tape boasting about committing sexual assault; and he was absolutely fine with the Saudis dismembering an American resident with a bone saw while the man was still alive. The posters still supporting him are not owed any politeness.
Thus confirming Maureen Dowd's point as quoted by ReadySetMillionaire yesterday.

A Fella from Stella

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #128 on: July 16, 2019, 12:42:59 PM »
Malkynn, you have done a much better job, of stating my own position that politics is in almost everything. I had a previous discussion here saying the same thing and I seem to recall that my argument was only warmly received.

Quote
Yup, THIS.  I don't see how fired up emotional outbursts over whether certain voters are racist or other voters are unstable whatever is in any way beneficial to this site.  It makes no sense to have it here and seems to only turn people against each other.

Exactly, especially since we know that the [INSERT GROUP] are the problem.

runbikerun

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #129 on: July 16, 2019, 01:36:16 PM »
I feel it should be pointed out in sol's absence:

Political opinions are not entitled to a polite hearing. The reason political threads are becoming increasingly rancorous is because a small group of posters are doubling down on their support of Trump even as his actions and declarations have become progressively more indefensible. The brickbats those posters have been getting are not the result of a boorish attitude to conservatism: they're the result of an entirely justifiable disgust with an utterly morally bankrupt abandonment of basic standards of governance. He's corrupt, racist, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, and misogynistic; he's on tape boasting about committing sexual assault; and he was absolutely fine with the Saudis dismembering an American resident with a bone saw while the man was still alive. The posters still supporting him are not owed any politeness.
Thus confirming Maureen Dowd's point as quoted by ReadySetMillionaire yesterday.

At the risk of sounding harsh: you read that piece, right? Because it's about the clash within the Democratic party regarding how to deal with Trump, and says precisely nothing about opposition to Trumpism.

runbikerun

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #130 on: July 16, 2019, 01:51:17 PM »
From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

I feel it's important to note that this is a pretty dishonest characterisation of Dowd's argument. She was speaking very specifically about the four members of the Democratic party currently giving Pelosi shit for not being confrontational enough with Trump. The entire piece is Dowd's argument that it's wrongheaded and offensive for AOC, Tlaib, Omar and Pressley to go after Pelosi specifically in the way that they have. It was not a general argument about progressives, as ReadySetMillionaire is presenting it; it was a specific charge laid against four specific House members in relation to a specific situation.

runbikerun

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2019, 01:54:48 PM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party. Especially ones that boast about committing sexual assault and support the dismembering of journalists while they're still alive.

Hell, let's have a bit of fun with this. Here's a list of politicians. If you support any of these people, I'm happy to report that I think you're a sack of rancid dog vomit. Not limiting it to Trump, or even to rightwingers!

-Matteo Salvini of the Lega Nord in Italy
-Viktor Orban in Hungary
-Filip Dewinter, formerly of Vlaams Blok in Belgium
-Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela (the failure of some people on the left to properly condemn this worthless bastard even now is a disgrace)
-Pretty much every politician in the AfD in Germany, the Swedish Democrats, the FPO in Austria, whatever the FN in France is now calling itself
-Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil
-Rodrigo Duterte in the Philippines
-Pretty much any politician who's taken money from Putin, left or right. You fuckers are selling out your countries.
-Nigel Fucking Farage, Boris Fucking Johnson and Michael Fucking Gove
-The Saudis. Seriously. It's genuinely appalling that those bastards are able to set foot in liberal democracies without being immediately pelted with offal.

I've probably missed a load of them, but you get the idea. If you're an enthusiastic fan of any of the people on that list, you're awful.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 02:08:00 PM by runbikerun »

Laserjet3051

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #132 on: July 16, 2019, 01:59:54 PM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

MDM

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #133 on: July 16, 2019, 02:01:29 PM »
At the risk of sounding harsh: you read that piece, right? Because it's about the clash within the Democratic party regarding how to deal with Trump, and says precisely nothing about opposition to Trumpism.
I feel it's important to note that this is a pretty dishonest characterisation of Dowd's argument. She was speaking very specifically about the four members of the Democratic party currently giving Pelosi shit for not being confrontational enough with Trump. The entire piece is Dowd's argument that it's wrongheaded and offensive for AOC, Tlaib, Omar and Pressley to go after Pelosi specifically in the way that they have. It was not a general argument about progressives, as ReadySetMillionaire is presenting it; it was a specific charge laid against four specific House members in relation to a specific situation.
Lol, yes I read the article. :)

We'd have to get Ms. Dowd's take to know for sure, but given that the other times the word "progressive" is used in the article it refers to more than "four specific House members," ReadySetMillionaire's interpretation is plausible at least, and apparently correct.

runbikerun

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #134 on: July 16, 2019, 02:16:01 PM »
It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

I don't think that's an even vaguely likely scenario. I'd also say that any undecided voter who decides to vote for concentration camps and unabashed racism because the other side was rude is a crayon-chewing moron who shouldn't be trusted with anything more dangerous than string - largely because that would be an unbelievably stupid reason to vote a particular way. "Well, children are literally dying in concentration camps set up by the Trump administration, and Trump is racially abusing members of Congress, but liberals are being rude about those things, so I'll vote for the pussy-grabber!"

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #135 on: July 16, 2019, 02:19:41 PM »
I feel it's important to note that this is a pretty dishonest characterisation of Dowd's argument. She was speaking very specifically about the four members of the Democratic party currently giving Pelosi shit for not being confrontational enough with Trump. The entire piece is Dowd's argument that it's wrongheaded and offensive for AOC, Tlaib, Omar and Pressley to go after Pelosi specifically in the way that they have. It was not a general argument about progressives, as ReadySetMillionaire is presenting it; it was a specific charge laid against four specific House members in relation to a specific situation.

I read the article as discussing the progressive wing of the party, not just the four house members who were causing a ruckus. It is titled "Scaling Wokeback Mountain," which I interpreted as a direct shot to progressives in general. The article also references numerous progressive groups and individuals, and scolds them as well.

If you have a different interpretation that's fine.

Cool Friend

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #136 on: July 16, 2019, 02:27:51 PM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

Shit, we better start bashing Bernie or whoever the fuck if there is an entire coalition of toddlers who vote for whoever is receiving the most severe criticism.

runbikerun

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #137 on: July 16, 2019, 02:38:36 PM »
On a less flippant note, I do actually think it's quite important for people to continue to yell about Trump and other similar politicians. A substantial part of what these people trade in is the sly reassurance that "everyone really thinks like this, but that we're the only ones willing to say it out loud". It's actually really important, especially in terms of undecided voters, to make it as clear as possible that everyone does not really think like this, and that a huge chunk of the population find those beliefs genuinely disgusting.

It's a lot harder to sell "we're just saying what everyone's thinking" when a substantial chunk of the population are saying loud and clear that what's being said is horseshit.

DadJokes

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #138 on: July 16, 2019, 02:45:23 PM »
It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

I don't think that's an even vaguely likely scenario. I'd also say that any undecided voter who decides to vote for concentration camps and unabashed racism because the other side was rude is a crayon-chewing moron who shouldn't be trusted with anything more dangerous than string - largely because that would be an unbelievably stupid reason to vote a particular way. "Well, children are literally dying in concentration camps set up by the Trump administration, and Trump is racially abusing members of Congress, but liberals are being rude about those things, so I'll vote for the pussy-grabber!"

Concentration camps? Is Godwin's Law in effect here?

For starters, I think I would agree that most American voters are morons, but that extends to both sides of the aisle, and politicians on both sides have learned to play to it. It's why we have a culture of outrage. Every single thing the president does is the scandal of the century. And the Republicans were just as guilty when Obama was president. For those of us who aren't partisan hacks, it just sounds like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and it gets old.

Cool Friend

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #139 on: July 16, 2019, 02:51:03 PM »
It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

I don't think that's an even vaguely likely scenario. I'd also say that any undecided voter who decides to vote for concentration camps and unabashed racism because the other side was rude is a crayon-chewing moron who shouldn't be trusted with anything more dangerous than string - largely because that would be an unbelievably stupid reason to vote a particular way. "Well, children are literally dying in concentration camps set up by the Trump administration, and Trump is racially abusing members of Congress, but liberals are being rude about those things, so I'll vote for the pussy-grabber!"

Concentration camps? Is Godwin's Law in effect here?

For starters, I think I would agree that most American voters are morons, but that extends to both sides of the aisle, and politicians on both sides have learned to play to it. It's why we have a culture of outrage. Every single thing the president does is the scandal of the century. And the Republicans were just as guilty when Obama was president. For those of us who aren't partisan hacks, it just sounds like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and it gets old.

Quote
In December 2015, Godwin commented on the Nazi and fascist comparisons being made by several articles about Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump, saying: "If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician."[13] In August 2017, Godwin made similar remarks on social networking websites Facebook and Twitter with respect to the two previous days' Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, endorsing and encouraging efforts to compare its alt-right organizers to Nazis.[14][15][16][17]

In October 2018, Godwin said on Twitter that it is acceptable to call Brazilian politician (later became President) Jair Bolsonaro a "Nazi".[18][19] In June 2019, after Chris Hayes invoked Godwin's Law in a discussion of whether it was appropriate to call the United States's refugee detention centers "concentration camps," Godwin explicitly stated his belief that the term "concentration camps" was appropriate.[20]

The deployment of Godwin's law any time the Nazi era is mentioned is a convenient way of silencing discussion on lessons we can learn about that time, and parallels we can draw to history repeating itself.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #140 on: July 16, 2019, 02:52:54 PM »
It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

I don't think that's an even vaguely likely scenario. I'd also say that any undecided voter who decides to vote for concentration camps and unabashed racism because the other side was rude is a crayon-chewing moron who shouldn't be trusted with anything more dangerous than string - largely because that would be an unbelievably stupid reason to vote a particular way. "Well, children are literally dying in concentration camps set up by the Trump administration, and Trump is racially abusing members of Congress, but liberals are being rude about those things, so I'll vote for the pussy-grabber!"

Concentration camps? Is Godwin's Law in effect here?

For starters, I think I would agree that most American voters are morons, but that extends to both sides of the aisle, and politicians on both sides have learned to play to it. It's why we have a culture of outrage. Every single thing the president does is the scandal of the century. And the Republicans were just as guilty when Obama was president. For those of us who aren't partisan hacks, it just sounds like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and it gets old.

Oh, did you miss this with AOC and the big Twitter uproar a couple weeks ago? Because you're about to get a history lesson from the oh so knowledgeable progressives about TRUE concentration camps, and what REAL concentration camps are, and citations from REAL historians about the origins of the use of "concentration camps." Best wishes to you and your family.

robartsd

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2019, 02:58:19 PM »
From Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend:

"The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad.  Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom."

Rings so incredibly true in the thread Sol got worked up in.

I feel it's important to note that this is a pretty dishonest characterisation of Dowd's argument. She was speaking very specifically about the four members of the Democratic party currently giving Pelosi shit for not being confrontational enough with Trump. The entire piece is Dowd's argument that it's wrongheaded and offensive for AOC, Tlaib, Omar and Pressley to go after Pelosi specifically in the way that they have. It was not a general argument about progressives, as ReadySetMillionaire is presenting it; it was a specific charge laid against four specific House members in relation to a specific situation.
Perhaps it is dishonest to attribute the idea that most progressives act in this way to Dowd based on this quote; but I don't think it is a dishonest characterization of the argument - that vilifying people because you disagree with their point of view is wrong. I can certainly understand how a lot of people feel that political discourse on both sides follow this type of behavior.

Kris

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2019, 03:01:42 PM »
It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

I don't think that's an even vaguely likely scenario. I'd also say that any undecided voter who decides to vote for concentration camps and unabashed racism because the other side was rude is a crayon-chewing moron who shouldn't be trusted with anything more dangerous than string - largely because that would be an unbelievably stupid reason to vote a particular way. "Well, children are literally dying in concentration camps set up by the Trump administration, and Trump is racially abusing members of Congress, but liberals are being rude about those things, so I'll vote for the pussy-grabber!"

Concentration camps? Is Godwin's Law in effect here?

For starters, I think I would agree that most American voters are morons, but that extends to both sides of the aisle, and politicians on both sides have learned to play to it. It's why we have a culture of outrage. Every single thing the president does is the scandal of the century. And the Republicans were just as guilty when Obama was president. For those of us who aren't partisan hacks, it just sounds like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and it gets old.

Even Godwin thinks Godwin's law doesn't apply here.

https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/1141125878874877953?lang=en

runbikerun

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2019, 03:03:59 PM »
Because you're about to get a history lesson from the oh so knowledgeable progressives about TRUE concentration camps, and what REAL concentration camps are, and citations from REAL historians about the origins of the use of "concentration camps." Best wishes to you and your family.

Do you actually realise how you sound? Do you realise you're now posting mockingly about concentration camps?

I mean, it's not a progressive conspiracy to note that concentration camps were not exclusive to the Third Reich, or that the camps set up by the Trump administration meet the definition. It's uncontroversial to refer to the British concentration camps of the Boer War, for example, or the internment of Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during World War Two. But you decide that being snide and mocking about concentration camps in which multiple children have died was a perfectly reasonable reaction. Well done you.

Kris

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2019, 03:04:24 PM »
Yeah, no. You can pretend that corruption, incoherence, abusive, spiteful, racist, or misogynistic traits are unique to the Republican party alone if you want to...but you'd be wrong.

Not even vaguely close to what I said. I said that continuing to support someone who has demonstrated that he is all of these things is not a position that deserves respect. I will happily abuse people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party.

It is EXACTLY this type of abuse you speak of and inflict that will overwhelmingly drive independent voters to Trump in 2020. If you cant/don't/wont' see this, I don't know what else to say.

Shit, we better start bashing Bernie or whoever the fuck if there is an entire coalition of toddlers who vote for whoever is receiving the most severe criticism.

Personally, I think the argument, "calling out people who support corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful, racist misogynists of any political party will make independents like me vote for the corrupt, incoherent, abusive, spiteful racist misogynists" is... an odd one, at best.

Wrenchturner

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2019, 03:19:24 PM »
If you haven't read Jonathan Haidt's book Righteous Mind I would highly recommend it.  It outlines some of the psychology, intuitions and morality associated with politics and the sort of "purity" ideas that are coming up in this thread.

solon

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2019, 03:45:38 PM »
I can't believe this turned into a political thread.

dougules

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2019, 03:50:48 PM »
I can't believe this turned into a political thread.

I can.

solon

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2019, 03:51:20 PM »
I can't believe this turned into a political thread.

I can.

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Kris

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Re: where is sol?
« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2019, 04:00:36 PM »
I mean, it's a thread about Sol, who was very political here. The fact that it was posted in general discussion, notwithstanding. It probably should have been in off-topic to begin with.