Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"

[Cawl]

I saw a guy at Costco the other day wearing a full gas mask. Completely covering his face with respirators built-in - just like the kind I'm issued in the Army.

He looked to be in his 30s and in reasonably good health (i.e. not morbidly obese). Maybe he's severely immune compromised and can't get vaccinated but in a place like Costco where the aisles are 10 feet wide and it's a 150,000 square foot warehouse it's not exactly high risk for catching COVID. I wanted to take a picture because it just seems so absurd at this point.

Or he is shitposting in real life. I was tempted to dress like this (see attachment). Knew someone that grabbed a respirator (for body shop work) who just wanted to mock people.

[Kris]

Yeah, maybe he was just being juvenile to make a "point."

Whatever the reason, though, he wasn't hurting anyone. There's no reason not to just let people do what they want as long as it's not against the law.

[Just Joe]

How do the people with dogs deal with walking them so they can relieve themselves?

https://www.wionews.com/world/watch-bags-full-of-cats-and-dogs-seen-in-china-as-authorities-kill-pets-of-covid-positive-owners-472239

I don't ever want to live in China.

[Just Joe]

I saw a guy at Costco the other day wearing a full gas mask. Completely covering his face with respirators built-in - just like the kind I'm issued in the Army.

He looked to be in his 30s and in reasonably good health (i.e. not morbidly obese). Maybe he's severely immune compromised and can't get vaccinated but in a place like Costco where the aisles are 10 feet wide and it's a 150,000 square foot warehouse it's not exactly high risk for catching COVID. I wanted to take a picture because it just seems so absurd at this point.

I see people walking on empty sidewalks masked and today - someone driving alone in a car all masked up. Whatever floats their boat.

[Kris]

I saw a guy at Costco the other day wearing a full gas mask. Completely covering his face with respirators built-in - just like the kind I'm issued in the Army.

He looked to be in his 30s and in reasonably good health (i.e. not morbidly obese). Maybe he's severely immune compromised and can't get vaccinated but in a place like Costco where the aisles are 10 feet wide and it's a 150,000 square foot warehouse it's not exactly high risk for catching COVID. I wanted to take a picture because it just seems so absurd at this point.

I see people walking on empty sidewalks masked and today - someone driving alone in a car all masked up. Whatever floats their boat.

I've driven in my car masked several times because I've forgotten that I even have it on.

[wenchsenior]

I saw a guy at Costco the other day wearing a full gas mask. Completely covering his face with respirators built-in - just like the kind I'm issued in the Army.

He looked to be in his 30s and in reasonably good health (i.e. not morbidly obese). Maybe he's severely immune compromised and can't get vaccinated but in a place like Costco where the aisles are 10 feet wide and it's a 150,000 square foot warehouse it's not exactly high risk for catching COVID. I wanted to take a picture because it just seems so absurd at this point.

I see people walking on empty sidewalks masked and today - someone driving alone in a car all masked up. Whatever floats their boat.

I've driven in my car masked several times because I've forgotten that I even have it on.

Lots of times, in my case.

[Just Joe]

I can't wait to take the darn thing off. Whiskers will do that with a mask.

[Cawl]

Yeah, maybe he was just being juvenile to make a "point."

Whatever the reason, though, he wasn't hurting anyone. There's no reason not to just let people do what they want as long as it's not against the law.

He took mask wearing and made it a farce. I have to respect the man for his dedication to the bit.

[GuitarStv]

I can't wait to take the darn thing off. Whiskers will do that with a mask.

I also hate wearing them.  I get pimples all over any part of my face that's in contact with them for long periods of time . . . cheeks, end of my nose, back of my ears.  It's pretty awful.

[Kris]

Yeah, maybe he was just being juvenile to make a "point."

Whatever the reason, though, he wasn't hurting anyone. There's no reason not to just let people do what they want as long as it's not against the law.

He took mask wearing and made it a farce. I have to respect the man for his dedication to the bit.

Yeah, everyone has an audience out there somewhere.

[Zamboni]

I just learned that one of my younger colleagues is now use a walker due to long COVID. Apparently it got into her brain. She is more than 10 years younger than I am. A young mom. With a walker. Egad.

So I am rethinking the cavalier attitude I have recently adopted about COVID. I've had it twice, but I'm an old fatty with a known bad ticker and concierge healthcare, so my doctor got me on the list quick for Regeneron antibodies when I had the delta variant. Surely that helped me avoid being hospitalized. I definitely never thought I'd see this healthy young lady needing a walker. No way she is faking it, either, because she is a workaholic.

@spartana, I didn't know you are hearing impaired. Half of my family is. The masking has indeed been an issue since most of the hearing impaired people can read lips, but they are too shy to ask people to remove their masks. Use of ASL went up in my family during the pandemic. My son has decided to learn sign language to communicate with one of his cousins, so I'm calling that a win.

[Just Joe]

Agreed on the fear of long COVID.

I know someone who lost smell/taste and has not regained it. Can't eat certain things b/c they cause gagging b/c of the way some food feels in their mouth.

That's bad enough. A mental or physical disability caused by COVID would be the worst.

[Gronnie]

How convenient they can just blame everything now on "long Covid"

[Abe]

A recent large (>2000 people) multinational prospective survey (most of whom were hospitalized with moderate to severe COVID, average time since diagnosis was 4 months) found about 10-15% have evidence of obstructive pulmonary disease on standard lung function tests. Common symptoms were fatigue (~40%), shortness of breath (~30%, depending on age), muscle pain (~25%), memory impairment (20%), and loss of smell (15%).

https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(22)00535-5/fulltext

Interestingly, a study of certain neurologic reflexes related to balance, etc found that defects in these reflexes were common in the early post-infection period. What that means long-term is hard to know, but more evidence that COVID is not a solely respiratory disease, but does cause damage to multiple organs.

Other studies suggest most of the symptoms dissipate by 6-9 months out, but some people (especially older, less fit patients) have long-term problems with some daily activities. A small UCSF study that's not yet peer-reviewed (and only 46 patients) found that exercise testing 1 year out was significantly diminished in about 50% of patients who had cardiac symptoms from COVID infection, but only 15% amongst those without those symptoms COVID. These correlated pretty well with inflammatory markers during the initial infection.

It is worth having empathy for people who have symptoms of long COVID, as it is now abundantly clear that while the main life-threatening consequences of initial infection are lung failure, there are many other longer-term effects that aren't "in their heads".

[Kris]

The last two comments above are just so emblematic of the two “sides” and their level of argument on Covid.

[Captain FIRE]

The last two comments above are just so emblematic of the two “sides” and their level of argument on Covid.

+1

[GuitarStv]

On the long covid front, there is some promising evidence that vaccination helps (looks like three vaccines is roughly 1/3 the chance of getting it compared to unvaccinated):
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(22)00354-6/fulltext
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2794072
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8469321/

Being female , old , fat, having lung disease, and having allergies all appear to be correlated with getting long covid.

[ATtiny85]

How convenient they can just blame everything now on "long Covid"

I have been part of major programs at work twice that had to be cancelled because they just weren't going to be viable (after hundreds of millions of tooling were purchased.) We definitely wrote off a lot of expenses to those account numbers that were once or twice removed because it was convenient.

As with most things like this, it is just so hard to legitimately separate the real from the imagined.

[mm1970]

Being female , old , fat, having lung disease, and having allergies all appear to be correlated with getting long covid.

Great...

Well, I just hope that with long Covid a thing now, we get closer and closer to real healthcare reform - and acceptance of unknown/complicated diseases.  Even just a few years ago a coworker referred to fibromyalgia as bullshit (not his words exactly).

exercise testing 1 year out was significantly diminished in about 50% of patients who had cardiac symptoms from COVID infection

Yeah, there are lots of anecdotes plus actual data sets out there that show the effects of long Covid on athletes.  It's no fun at all. 

I had COVID in July.  I'm pretty fit (running, swimming, weight training), and I'm EXHAUSTED.  I don't know that I can blame it on COVID, as being middle aged with a stressful full time job, allergies, 2 kids, and a dog, while going through menopause is enough to explain it...

[Cawl]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

[Gronnie]

We already gave absolute amnesty to vaccine makers which I for one think is absolutely ludicrous.

[EvenSteven]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

[Gronnie]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.

[GuitarStv]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.

Why are you choosing not to wear an N95?  They're cheap, readily available, and reduce transmission of disease.

[EvenSteven]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.

Such a petty thing to be mad about.

[Gronnie]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.

Why are you choosing not to wear an N95?  They're cheap, readily available, and reduce transmission of disease.

N95 masks need to be properly fitted. The majority of them don't work either.

[trc4897]

why does this thread keep getting resurrected? i love this forum but cringe every time i see this thread at the top of the page. can it be moved to off topic??

[GuitarStv]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.

Why are you choosing not to wear an N95?  They're cheap, readily available, and reduce transmission of disease.

N95 masks need to be properly fitted. The majority of them don't work either.

Where did you hear that the majority of N95 masks don't work?

[Cawl]

why does this thread keep getting resurrected? i love this forum but cringe every time i see this thread at the top of the page. can it be moved to off topic??

Because someone decided to turn Off-Topic into a hugbox.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work? That's what I'm talking about. People put these policies in place without discussing downsides. These things did damage and saying "we just asked you to wear a mask" misses the point completely.

[EvenSteven]

why does this thread keep getting resurrected? i love this forum but cringe every time i see this thread at the top of the page. can it be moved to off topic??

Because someone decided to turn Off-Topic into a hugbox.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work? That's what I'm talking about. People put these policies in place without discussing downsides. These things did damage and saying "we just asked you to wear a mask" misses the point completely.

I don't believe you. I heard tons of people discussing both potential and realized downsides both in my personal life and on the TV and internets.

[StashingAway]

why does this thread keep getting resurrected? i love this forum but cringe every time i see this thread at the top of the page. can it be moved to off topic??

Because someone decided to turn Off-Topic into a hugbox.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work? That's what I'm talking about. People put these policies in place without discussing downsides. These things did damage and saying "we just asked you to wear a mask" misses the point completely.

I don't believe you. I heard tons of people discussing both potential and realized downsides both in my personal life and on the TV and internets.

There really was no winning with that discussion either. The mask discussion is more of a proxy of the lowest common denominator of public participation.. On particular set of people couldn't even be bothered to make a low effort contribution to society (or, rather, were encouraged not to by the polarizing communication shoved at us 24/7). Even though there was some suspicion of their effect on disease prevention, especially at the beginning, the least people could do was to try to participate in a community effort to show support.

When those same people were now bringing up the problematic side effects of pulling kids from school, they were effectively ignored because they were not making a good faith effort at collaboration. Any amount of leeway given to public prevention measures (such as not making children wear masks but making adults wear them in grocery stores) were construed as admissions of being wrong and used against well meaning disease prevention experts rather than used as good compromise. So, no, "we just asked you to wear a mask" doesn't miss the point. It is the point.

Mind you, the opposite side of the discussion wasn't very clean as well. The phrase "we're all in this together" whilst making policy that adversely affected some individuals but benefited others was/is a real grievance and in general discounted by those that it didn't affect (which is the point that I do agree with Cawl here).

[Gronnie]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.

Why are you choosing not to wear an N95?  They're cheap, readily available, and reduce transmission of disease.

N95 masks need to be properly fitted. The majority of them don't work either.

Where did you hear that the majority of N95 masks don't work?

If you aren't fitted for an N95 and thus don't wear it properly it doesn't work. That's not an opinion.

[StashingAway]

If you aren't fitted for an N95 and thus don't wear it properly it doesn't work. That's not an opinion.

I think you need to define "doesn't work" here.

They absolutely work for preventing disease spread if the infected individual is wearing one, even if not properly fitted (this is not an opinion, it is backed up by ASHRAE particulate expulsion research). Which, in the case of covid, is their primary purpose. Their secondary purpose is to prevent disease transmission to the wearing individual, in which case a poorly fitting mask won't be as effective as a fitted one, but you can't possibly tell me that's a binary outcome.

[GuitarStv]

Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work?

There are a variety of reasons.  Many parents were panicked and uncertain about the future, which certainly impacted their kids.  Lots of people lost their jobs.  Many schools that weren't ready to do distance learning tried to implement it on a very short timeline (and did so poorly).  Special educators services tended to be a lot harder to get.  There's some evidence that exposure to covid has negative impacts reasoning skills of a certain percentage of people.  This list goes on and on.

Did covid restrictions play a part of that?  I suspect so.  But if you look at test score drops there doesn't seem to be a particularly clear pattern:  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2022-10-26/states-with-the-largest-drops-in-reading-math-test-scores.

California and Vermont both had pretty significant covid restrictions and had better test score results than Florida, Texas, and Alaska which were much less restrictive.  Alabama was middle of the pack for covid restrictions, and their test scores actually improved overall.

If you aren't fitted for an N95 and thus don't wear it properly it doesn't work. That's not an opinion.

N95 masks do need to be adjusted to make a tight seal around your face.  This 'fitting' isn't incredibly difficult though.  This three minute video covers how to do it properly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRNTtle2Tuc&ab_channel=ClinicalExcellenceCommission

I found that you had to search around to find a brand that fits your face best, but actually fitting the mask is pretty easy to do.


You didn't make a claim about N95s not fitting.  You said:

N95 masks need to be properly fitted. The majority of them don't work either.

As far as I'm aware, that's not true.  The majority of N95 masks work very well.  Even standard surgical masks and dual layer cloth masks have been shown in studies to both reduce transmission of covid.

[Cawl]

Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work?

There are a variety of reasons.  Many parents were panicked and uncertain about the future, which certainly impacted their kids.  Lots of people lost their jobs.  Many schools that weren't ready to do distance learning tried to implement it on a very short timeline (and did so poorly).  Special educators services tended to be a lot harder to get.  There's some evidence that exposure to covid has negative impacts reasoning skills of a certain percentage of people.  This list goes on and on.

Did covid restrictions play a part of that?  I suspect so.  But if you look at test score drops there doesn't seem to be a particularly clear pattern:  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2022-10-26/states-with-the-largest-drops-in-reading-math-test-scores.

California and Vermont both had pretty significant covid restrictions and had better test score results than Florida, Texas, and Alaska which were much less restrictive.  Alabama was middle of the pack for covid restrictions, and their test scores actually improved overall.

I was taking issue with their argument "we didn't have any lockdowns, therefore there cannot be any repercussions from the lockdowns that didn't happen. Anyone that believed lockdowns happened was clearly hallucinating."
The math thing was just the example I could remember off the top of my head.

why does this thread keep getting resurrected? i love this forum but cringe every time i see this thread at the top of the page. can it be moved to off topic??

Because someone decided to turn Off-Topic into a hugbox.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?

Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.

And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.

I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.

I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.

So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.

Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work? That's what I'm talking about. People put these policies in place without discussing downsides. These things did damage and saying "we just asked you to wear a mask" misses the point completely.

I don't believe you. I heard tons of people discussing both potential and realized downsides both in my personal life and on the TV and internets.

Mind you, the opposite side of the discussion wasn't very clean as well. The phrase "we're all in this together" whilst making policy that adversely affected some individuals but benefited others was/is a real grievance and in general discounted by those that it didn't affect (which is the point that I do agree with Cawl here).

The woman that wrote the article experienced this first hand when she changed her mind about lockdowns.

"We need to forgive the attacks, too. Because I thought schools should reopen and argued that kids as a group were not at high risk, I was called a “teacher killer” and a “génocidaire.” It wasn’t pleasant, but feelings were high. And I certainly don’t need to dissect and rehash that time for the rest of my days."

Just as an example.

[Gronnie]

Ooops -- I didn't mean to write "the majority of them don't work either". Replace "either" with "otherwise".

The vast majority of normal (ie not trained in their use) people I have seen wearing masks wear them improperly which greatly hinders their effectiveness if not makes them useless.

[Freedomin5]

I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.

Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.

From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.

When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.

[Cawl]

I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.

Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.

From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.

When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.

There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."

And I don't think China's "Zero COVID Policy" is about COVID. But that would be more of a conspiracy theory than actual facts.

[habanero]

At the times Sweden were (albeit not really justified) viewed as bat-shit-crazy in western Europe with their laxer approach. It should be noted that there is siginficant difference between what were done in Sweden and how it generally was reported around the world, the main differences are they didn't close schools, outlaw social life and didn't ban anything but based on general recommendations.

Sweden is one of few places where life expetancy did not go down in the years 2019-2021. For comparison it went down 28 months in the US, 6 months in Germany and 1 month in France (Australia not in the study the numbers are tanken from). Neighbouring Denmark, Norway and Finland had a significantly stricter and legal-based respsonse than Sweden, but there is no real difference in life expectancy in this period. Its 0 months in the Nordic countries except Norway where it went up by 1 month.

As for Norway, we had reduced mortality rate in 2020 but it was off the charts in 2021 albeit noone really cared about excess deaths anymore when the numbers came out in a small notice in a newspaper this year.  The reason for this excess mortality wasn't due to covid, but it was partly a consequence of fewer deaths the previous year and a sharp increase in heart-related problems. They don't really know the reasons for the latter but one theory is neglected medical care when everyone only thought about covid.

[former player]

I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.

Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.

From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.

When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.

There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."

And I don't think China's "Zero COVID Policy" is about COVID. But that would be more of a conspiracy theory than actual facts.

When policy makers are faced with a novel disease with uncertain effects they employ something called the "precautionary principle".  They have to make decisions based on limited information ("uncertainty") where outcomes either way are likely to be irreversible.  In the case of covid precautions mask wearing has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability while having limited and largely reversible downsides.  Requiring potential super-spreader events to stop for a certain period again has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability but has significant potential downsides to social interactions (mostly not too bad if for a limited period) and economic activity (dealt with, atlhough not particularly well, by monetary interventions from governments).  Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved, so a calculation that this was worth trying at the time is one governments could reasonably make.

Did governments get everything right?  Of course not.  Were they properly prepared?  No.  in the situation they found themselves in, did they make reasonable good faith attempts to deal with the situation?  Mostly, yes, sometimes dragged kicking and screaming in that direction and sometimes not at all and acting in extreme bad faith.

Most of us (China excepted) are now in a situation where we are being left to make our own choices.  Getting vaccines and boosters has few downsides and major potential upsides.  Wearing a mask according to one's own risk assessment has few downsides and major potential upsides.  Not complaining about other people's choices about protecting themselves is good manners, complaining about people's choices about not protecting other people is reasonable but probably futile.

[habanero]

Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved

No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.

[Freedomin5]

Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved

No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.

Yeah, China’s doing the full lockdown strategy. I should know — I lived through the Great Lockdown of Shanghai a few months ago. It doesn’t work. There continues to be “wild” cases that crop up from time to time for no apparent reason (contact tracing suggests it wasn’t caught from someone else). And the toll of completely locking down everyone in an entire city, let alone an entire country, is immense. Mental and emotional well-being definitely went down during full lockdown. It’s also pretty much impossible. Even when Shanghai was completely locked down, we still needed truck drivers and other personnel to deliver food, transport people to the hospital for treatment of serious illnesses like cancer, etc. Without income (locked down = cannot work), a lot of people can’t afford to buy food. In addition, there is a subset of the population who don’t know how to order grocery deliveries online; they need to be able to visit a grocery store to buy food — those people suffer a lot during the full lockdown. You might end up saving some people, but you could also potentially end up killing a lot of people who die from other things like hunger, suicide, or not being able to access life-saving medical treatments.

[Shane]

Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved

No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.

Yeah, no. If the above were even remotely true, China would be covid free by now.

A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway. North Americans living a sedentary, car-based lifestyle, eating predominantly heavily processed fast foods, are uniquely situated to become victims of any novel disease that comes along. Pretty sure covid is playing out exactly as Darwin would've predicted. It's culling the herd of the weaker, sicker humans.

[former player]

Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved

No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.

Yeah, no. If the above were even remotely true, China would be covid free by now.

A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway. North Americans living a sedentary, car-based lifestyle, eating predominantly heavily processed fast foods, are uniquely situated to become victims of any novel disease that comes along. Pretty sure covid is playing out exactly as Darwin would've predicted. It's culling the herd of the weaker, sicker humans.

See New Zealand.

[mizzourah2006]

I don't think anyone is blaming anyone for the first 3-4 months of COVID behavior. I think the problem most people have with this idea of "pandemic Amnesty" is 2021 and even into 2022. We knew "breakthrough" infections were happening and people with the vaccine were spreading COVID, but we fired people that didn't get the vaccine, we wouldn't let them in restaurants, and to this day there are school districts that won't let them attend school. We still largely refuse to acknowledge a prior infection as largely equivalent to having received a dose of the vaccine. We knew relatively early on cloth masks didn't work, but people got yelled at outside for not "masking up". Shutting down large swaths of society for 2 years when we knew it was the 60+ crowd largely impacted within 3 months, etc.

The way I see it is that people are asking for "amnesty" from their belligerent behavior to their fellow citizens and even friends and family. So many people acted like self-righteous a$$es during 2021 and now that it's coming to light that their behavior and decisions were largely wrong they want you to just forget it. "Nobody could have known shutting down schools for a year was bad and that kids were largely unaffected by the virus" or that "a vaccine against a coronavirus wouldn't be ~98% effective at stopping the spread". "If everyone just got the vaccine this pandemic would be over!!"

I had friends that told me that all the unvaccinated deserved to die. For a while I didn't disclose I got vaccinated just to see how they'd treat me. It was a very interesting and telling social experiment. I sent them the pandemic amnesty article via an email group I'm in with them. They ignored it, but have been responding to many other email threads. To me that sums it up. Refuses to acknowledge the absurdity of their behavior, instead just chooses to forget they ever acted that way or said those things. 

[Shane]

Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved

No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.

Yeah, no. If the above were even remotely true, China would be covid free by now.

A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway. North Americans living a sedentary, car-based lifestyle, eating predominantly heavily processed fast foods, are uniquely situated to become victims of any novel disease that comes along. Pretty sure covid is playing out exactly as Darwin would've predicted. It's culling the herd of the weaker, sicker humans.

See New Zealand.

What's possible in a tiny, island country like NZ, with a population of only 5MM, is NOT possible in a huge country like China, with a population of >1.4BB. That's why we're challenging your statement above, "Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether" No, they couldn't have.

[habanero]

A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway.

Yeah - baseline helth level is cited as a key difference. But in general, especially in the Nordics, the population has a relatively high level of trust in the government, various conspiray theories have very low take-up (we do have our share, but it insignificant). For the same reason the vaccination rates are very high, among the highest in the world, without really any consequences for yourself if you for some reason didn't want to get it. There is a small exception for health professional working with at-risk patient, but that's the only I know of.

The political landscape is largely consensus-driven, the entire public administraion outside elected represenatives in parlement is non-political (it doesn't change after elections) and the population is relatively well-informed. One thing, however our "CDC" discovered was how difficult it was to get information out to certain immigrant minorities, but they somewhat figured it out by going via mosques, community authority figures etc. However, if you break down hospitalizations by birth country there are massive differences with the immigrant population, mainly from the Middle East and Africa strongly over-represented. Same with eastern european immigrants, covid has taken a pretty serious tall in large parts of Eastern Europe and the vaccination rates are shockingly low.

When Australia suddenly got hold of a lot of doses back then it was mainly due to eastern EU contries cancelling their share of the available doses as they quickly ran out of arms to put them in. Compared to the 28 months in US life expecancy it was 27 in Poland and 43 in Bulgaria.

So all inn all the talk about population density etc might be far less relevant than one should assume beforehand. Culture, public health and society in general appears to matter a lot more.

[GuitarStv]

Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved

No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.

Yeah, no. If the above were even remotely true, China would be covid free by now.

A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway. North Americans living a sedentary, car-based lifestyle, eating predominantly heavily processed fast foods, are uniquely situated to become victims of any novel disease that comes along. Pretty sure covid is playing out exactly as Darwin would've predicted. It's culling the herd of the weaker, sicker humans.

See New Zealand.

What's possible in a tiny, island country like NZ, with a population of only 5MM, is NOT possible in a huge country like China, with a population of >1.4BB. That's why we're challenging your statement above, "Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether" No, they couldn't have.

I partly agree.

This is a highly communicable disease.  It's hard to control right now for a variety of reasons - partly because it spreads before there are symptoms, partly because it's airborne, partly because it has infected animals other than humans.

As New Zealand showed us, a country with forewarning that takes sufficient measures at the beginning of the pandemic is able to get and keep things under control.  Canada and the US had the same benefit of a heads up and very few people infected initially.  We didn't ever take things very seriously (regular air travel from around the globe was allowed during the whole pandemic for example) so we never had a chance to get things under control.  In China's case things were obviously different - the disease originated there, by the time it was recognized as a serious problem it had already spread unchecked for a while.  It's very hard to suppress a contagious widely spread disease that is capable of jumping species regardless of controls used.

[Cawl]

I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.

Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.

From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.

When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.

There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."

And I don't think China's "Zero COVID Policy" is about COVID. But that would be more of a conspiracy theory than actual facts.

When policy makers are faced with a novel disease with uncertain effects they employ something called the "precautionary principle".  They have to make decisions based on limited information ("uncertainty") where outcomes either way are likely to be irreversible.  In the case of covid precautions mask wearing has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability while having limited and largely reversible downsides.  Requiring potential super-spreader events to stop for a certain period again has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability but has significant potential downsides to social interactions (mostly not too bad if for a limited period) and economic activity (dealt with, atlhough not particularly well, by monetary interventions from governments).  Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved, so a calculation that this was worth trying at the time is one governments could reasonably make.

Did governments get everything right?  Of course not.  Were they properly prepared?  No.  in the situation they found themselves in, did they make reasonable good faith attempts to deal with the situation?  Mostly, yes, sometimes dragged kicking and screaming in that direction and sometimes not at all and acting in extreme bad faith.

Most of us (China excepted) are now in a situation where we are being left to make our own choices.  Getting vaccines and boosters has few downsides and major potential upsides.  Wearing a mask according to one's own risk assessment has few downsides and major potential upsides.  Not complaining about other people's choices about protecting themselves is good manners, complaining about people's choices about not protecting other people is reasonable but probably futile.

I've heard the estimate that by the time the lockdowns were initiated in America 3-4% of the population had been exposed to COVID, making control of it impossible.
We could have focussed on protecting the most vulnerable but instead attempted the impossible.

[EvenSteven]

I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.

Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.

From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.

When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.

There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."

And I don't think China's "Zero COVID Policy" is about COVID. But that would be more of a conspiracy theory than actual facts.

When policy makers are faced with a novel disease with uncertain effects they employ something called the "precautionary principle".  They have to make decisions based on limited information ("uncertainty") where outcomes either way are likely to be irreversible.  In the case of covid precautions mask wearing has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability while having limited and largely reversible downsides.  Requiring potential super-spreader events to stop for a certain period again has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability but has significant potential downsides to social interactions (mostly not too bad if for a limited period) and economic activity (dealt with, atlhough not particularly well, by monetary interventions from governments).  Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved, so a calculation that this was worth trying at the time is one governments could reasonably make.

Did governments get everything right?  Of course not.  Were they properly prepared?  No.  in the situation they found themselves in, did they make reasonable good faith attempts to deal with the situation?  Mostly, yes, sometimes dragged kicking and screaming in that direction and sometimes not at all and acting in extreme bad faith.

Most of us (China excepted) are now in a situation where we are being left to make our own choices.  Getting vaccines and boosters has few downsides and major potential upsides.  Wearing a mask according to one's own risk assessment has few downsides and major potential upsides.  Not complaining about other people's choices about protecting themselves is good manners, complaining about people's choices about not protecting other people is reasonable but probably futile.

I've heard the estimate that by the time the lockdowns were initiated in America 3-4% of the population had been exposed to COVID, making control of it impossible.
We could have focussed on protecting the most vulnerable but instead attempted the impossible.

Again, what do you mean when you talk about the US going into lockdown? We never went into lock down. In my neck of the woods, most work places, including mine, never closed. Grocery stores never closed. Parks never closed. People were out walking the streets, patronizing businesses and socializing. Restaurants transitioned from sit-down to take-out.

Hospitals were overwhelmed and there were not enough beds for those who needed it. People with non-Covid health needs suffered from lack of available care. Most of the talk was about "flattening the curve."