Author Topic: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"  (Read 239063 times)

seattlecyclone

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1300 on: July 07, 2022, 12:53:21 PM »
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?

You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.

If I've said they're not worth taking, I apologize. That's not the argument I was trying to make. I'm just tired of people saying it would've been worse without the vaccine to people who were sick for multiple weeks. Never in my life can I remember that being said for any other illness that has a vaccine.

I actually agree with you on this... it seems like everyone who is vaccinated ends their caught covid story by saying they are so glad they had the vaccine because it would/could have been so much worse.  It's probably some sort of fallacy that I don't feel like looking up

It's not a fallacy if the statistical evidence shows that unvaccinated people are more likely to experience negative outcomes. I don't have a time machine to go back and try getting COVID without a vaccine to compare, nor would I want to.

StashingAway

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1301 on: July 07, 2022, 01:39:29 PM »
I actually agree with you on this... it seems like everyone who is vaccinated ends their caught covid story by saying they are so glad they had the vaccine because it would/could have been so much worse.  It's probably some sort of fallacy that I don't feel like looking up

There are some fallacies there, but in general they are pointing the other direction.

1) The availability heuristic. Cases where covid hit hard even with the vacciene are easier to remember (and even detect) than those who didn't, so it is easier to think that they play a bigger statistical role than they do.

2) Optimism bias. It's easier to imagine a personal un-vaccinated encounter with covid more optimistically than the norm.

Basically, the only way to gauge how well you would do against covid without a vaccine is to look at the stats because there's no way run two timelines on yourself. And the stats say that vaccines in general are a net positive effect.

Vaccines are so effective (the data tells us) that we collectively don't have a very good gauge on how hard Covid would be without them. It's easy to stand here with significant levels of medical intervention and just kind of forget how much went into it. Similar to how we walk around with cell phones forgetting what it was like before them.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2022, 01:41:14 PM by StashingAway »

MrGreen

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1302 on: July 07, 2022, 05:52:19 PM »
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?

You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.
Just wanted to point out that this is misquoted. I did not say the above.

moneytaichi

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1303 on: July 08, 2022, 11:21:19 PM »
Just a tale of my personal experience: DH and I got vaxed and boosted as early as we could. We hardly travelled for nearly 2 years and only started going to restaurants this year. As things get easier, I relaxed my guards and went to coffeeshops and restaurants more often. Oh, well, I caught Covid on Monday. Variant BA.5 is super transmittable. We are in our 50s with asthma. It knocked me down for 3-4 days with zero energy to get up or eat, constant cough, and fever. Reading the long term effects of repeat Covid is very chilling. That means for me to scratch all my ideas of "normal" and continue my drills until new vax is out for new variants: social distancing, no flights/indoor dinning or crowded places. Masks are back on...  You know what, I probably can live just as well. I can hike, read, exercise, and do my daily chores - just with masks on :)

Different people take different risks for different things. I value my health.

https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/news/headlines/how-to-protect-yourself-from-covid-subvariant-ba5/2022/07
Emerging research is finding that with each repeat COVID infection – even asymptomatic infection -- you increase your risk for complications including stroke, heart attack, diabetes, digestive and kidney disorders and long-term cognitive impairment, including dementia.
Each reinfection also carries with it the risk of Long COVID, a syndrome with ongoing COVID symptoms that can last for weeks or months after infection.

Cawl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1304 on: September 21, 2022, 04:47:29 AM »
The CDC decided that "infection based immunity counts" back in August.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7133e1.htm?s_cid=mm7133e1_w
(Check PDF)
 Also I did not imagine this because the Washington Post and NPR also said it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/08/11/cdc-coronavirus-recommendations/
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/08/11/1116991600/with-new-guidance-cdc-ends-test-to-stay-for-schools-and-relaxes-covid-rules

If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?

Poundwise

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1305 on: September 21, 2022, 04:02:57 PM »
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?

My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not.   Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.

Kris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1306 on: September 21, 2022, 04:37:39 PM »
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?

My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not.   Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.

Yes, exactly this.

BeanCounter

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1307 on: September 21, 2022, 05:59:16 PM »
Our life has been totally back to normal for months now. I am feeling ready to get the new booster but I had hives for three months after the last booster so my doctor said to wait a year-which would be in Nov. Not sure if I should go ahead now or not.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1308 on: September 21, 2022, 06:32:47 PM »
I just got my updated booster. The side effects were worse than the first three shots, but nothing compared to when I actually got covid. Seems to be little chance of avoiding it anymore without completely hiding in a cave, so I'll keep up to date on the shots to minimize the effects of the disease.

StarBright

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1309 on: September 21, 2022, 06:59:34 PM »
I just got my updated booster. The side effects were worse than the first three shots, but nothing compared to when I actually got covid. Seems to be little chance of avoiding it anymore without completely hiding in a cave, so I'll keep up to date on the shots to minimize the effects of the disease.

I got the updated booster over the weekend and it also was worse than my first 4 shots. They warned me it might be bad because we don't think I have had covid yet. It was 24 really rough hours and then it resolved itself - but I did need to take yesterday off of work (unplanned).

My issues was mostly inflamed joints and headache. I have autoimmune issues, so inflamed joints are not new to me, but it was pretty bad. Definitely way worse than my baseline pain.

Kris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1310 on: September 21, 2022, 07:10:54 PM »
I have just reconciled myself to the fact that I’m likely to have a bad 24 hours every time I get a vaccination from now on.

But that is so much better than getting Covid. Put it in my vein!

pdxvandal

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1311 on: September 21, 2022, 08:17:36 PM »
Also just got my booster a few days ago and had virtually zero side effects (I had some fatigue after the initial dose). Perhaps because I had Covid in May that my reaction was very minimal. Who knows? I'm just trying to continue to live without being uber paranoid about Covid. We just gotta live with it and hopefully the worst is over.

Cawl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1312 on: September 21, 2022, 08:28:23 PM »
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?

My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not.   Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?

Jesstache

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1313 on: September 21, 2022, 08:38:26 PM »
Our life has been totally back to normal for months now. I am feeling ready to get the new booster but I had hives for three months after the last booster so my doctor said to wait a year-which would be in Nov. Not sure if I should go ahead now or not.

I STILL have hives over 6 months out from getting the booster (Moderna).  I don't know if I'll get another booster if I can avoid it.  I take daily zyrtec and it just kind of makes them bearable and I can tell when it's been more than 12 hours since my last dose.  I still spend a good part of the day trying to avoid itching (and I'm always  ITCHY from the hives) because any place I scratch leaves a raised red mark to the point that I can write stuff on my skin any time I want to and then read what I wrote for an hour or two afterward. 

Road42

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I got the new booster last week and had no reaction at all to it, just a bit of a sore arm from the shot itself. Before, other boosters would make me feel flu-ey for a day or so. But haven’t gotten COVID yet and I don’t want to. Gimme all the vaccines!

ATtiny85

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1315 on: September 22, 2022, 05:30:22 AM »
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?

My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not.   Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?

You first...would it have been a bad idea to vaccinate them?

And we have no way of knowing what "just enough" means, so I can't see any reason why it would not be a good idea to vaccinate.

edited for typo

Cawl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1316 on: September 22, 2022, 08:48:00 AM »
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?

My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not.   Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?

You first...would it have been a bad idea to vaccinate them?

And we have no way of knowing what "just enough" means, so I can't see any reason why it would not be a good idea to vaccinate.

edited for typo
The first answer here was just as true for vaccine based immunity as for infection based immunity.

And I did not say "just enough." I said "just had enough", which I had meant as "recently infected to the point of producing antibodies." That did not come across. So what would be the difference between two people that were "immunized" at the same time?

As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.

The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?

Sibley

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1317 on: September 23, 2022, 04:50:37 PM »
Guidance is that you should wait 3 months (I believe) after having covid before getting the vaccine/booster. Thus why I haven't gotten the booster yet - I'm still in that window.

Arbitrage

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1318 on: September 24, 2022, 09:02:31 AM »
I just got my updated booster. The side effects were worse than the first three shots, but nothing compared to when I actually got covid. Seems to be little chance of avoiding it anymore without completely hiding in a cave, so I'll keep up to date on the shots to minimize the effects of the disease.

I had basically zero side effects from the updated booster, which I got at the same time as my flu shot.  A bit lightheaded for a couple of hours, and some arm soreness for a day or two (which I normally get from the flu shot as well).  We, too, are finally relaxing some of our masking behavior in indoor public areas, except where it's particularly crowded/risky.  Want to get the kids boosted and will give them the go-ahead as well. 

Of course will still mask where required and if requested to make others comfortable.  Happy to still be COVID virgins, but choosing the updated booster as the point where we're going to take the risk of living through a periodic (likely mild due to vaccination) infection. 

Shane

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1319 on: September 24, 2022, 06:47:32 PM »
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?

My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not.   Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?

You first...would it have been a bad idea to vaccinate them?

And we have no way of knowing what "just enough" means, so I can't see any reason why it would not be a good idea to vaccinate.

edited for typo
The first answer here was just as true for vaccine based immunity as for infection based immunity.

And I did not say "just enough." I said "just had enough", which I had meant as "recently infected to the point of producing antibodies." That did not come across. So what would be the difference between two people that were "immunized" at the same time?

As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.

The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?

Seems pretty clear. The pharmaceutical companies are the ones benefiting from vaccinating people who don't need it. Individuals suffer from side effects of the vaccines like myocarditis. For Pfizer and Moderna, there's only upside to vaccinating as many men, women, children, and even babies, as humanly possible.

Kris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1320 on: September 24, 2022, 08:21:10 PM »
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?

My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not.   Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?

You first...would it have been a bad idea to vaccinate them?

And we have no way of knowing what "just enough" means, so I can't see any reason why it would not be a good idea to vaccinate.

edited for typo
The first answer here was just as true for vaccine based immunity as for infection based immunity.

And I did not say "just enough." I said "just had enough", which I had meant as "recently infected to the point of producing antibodies." That did not come across. So what would be the difference between two people that were "immunized" at the same time?

As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.

The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?

Seems pretty clear. The pharmaceutical companies are the ones benefiting from vaccinating people who don't need it. Individuals suffer from side effects of the vaccines like myocarditis. For Pfizer and Moderna, there's only upside to vaccinating as many men, women, children, and even babies, as humanly possible.

It’s so interesting how many people are so willing to believe that public health initiatives are all about big pharma making a profit… but somehow remain completely blind to the fact that vaccine denial is a hugely profitable industry.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/12/993615185/for-some-anti-vaccine-advocates-misinformation-is-part-of-a-business

Cawl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1321 on: September 24, 2022, 11:59:20 PM »
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?

My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not.   Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?

You first...would it have been a bad idea to vaccinate them?

And we have no way of knowing what "just enough" means, so I can't see any reason why it would not be a good idea to vaccinate.

edited for typo
The first answer here was just as true for vaccine based immunity as for infection based immunity.

And I did not say "just enough." I said "just had enough", which I had meant as "recently infected to the point of producing antibodies." That did not come across. So what would be the difference between two people that were "immunized" at the same time?

As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.

The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?

Seems pretty clear. The pharmaceutical companies are the ones benefiting from vaccinating people who don't need it. Individuals suffer from side effects of the vaccines like myocarditis. For Pfizer and Moderna, there's only upside to vaccinating as many men, women, children, and even babies, as humanly possible.

It’s so interesting how many people are so willing to believe that public health initiatives are all about big pharma making a profit… but somehow remain completely blind to the fact that vaccine denial is a hugely profitable industry.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/12/993615185/for-some-anti-vaccine-advocates-misinformation-is-part-of-a-business
That's more "a breakdown in trust in public institutions" problem. Biggest example I can think of off the top of my head is "why should vaccine data be released in 75 years." That would make most people do a double take. (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/why-a-judge-ordered-fda-to-release-covid-19-vaccine-data-pronto)

Both things can be true as well. You can have anti-vaxxer grifters and regulatory capture of government agencies. The two are not mutually exclusive. Both sides can have bad actors.

Though I will admit that this has been the weirdest part about COVID. The number of left leaning people who suddenly love the pharmaceutical industry despite its long history of shady business practices and how every "punk rock music" adherent suddenly learned to love experts. "All rebels are closet aristocrats" sums up everything very nicely. Also "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Kris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1322 on: September 25, 2022, 06:10:40 AM »
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.

Shane

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1323 on: September 25, 2022, 06:32:45 AM »
The pharmaceutical industry always has been sleazy af. Americans are some of the most highly medicated humans on Earth, and yet some of the sickest. Gee, wonder if there might be any connection there? Something like 3/4 of all Americans who die from drugs each year, die from pharmaceuticals legally prescribed and taken according to a doctor's instructions. Dealers of illegal drugs routinely get sentenced to decades in prison and have all of their assets confiscated by the government, yet, pharmaceutical executives, who kill 3x as many Americans, never even get arrested, let alone prosecuted and incarcerated. Right now, Pfizer and Moderna have vaccines that older Americans need to increase our chances of surviving covid, in the event that we get sick. That doesn't mean the pharmaceutical companies are suddenly all wonderful. There's a revolving door between the CDC, FDA, and for-profit pharmaceutical companies. So, it's not surprising, at all, that the FDA is claiming it'll take them 75 years to produce all of the documents they have related to the approval of Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine. They're covering for their friends still working in the industry. Gotta keep profits up, so they can all exercise their piles of stock options and become even more fabulously wealthy. We're still going to get a fifth vaccination for Covid sometime soon. Apparently, the shots work. No one in our family has gotten covid yet, as far as we know, anyway. Still not a fan of the pill pushers.

Kris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1324 on: September 25, 2022, 06:46:29 AM »
The pharmaceutical industry always has been sleazy af. Americans are some of the most highly medicated humans on Earth, and yet some of the sickest. Gee, wonder if there might be any connection there? Something like 3/4 of all Americans who die from drugs each year, die from pharmaceuticals legally prescribed and taken according to a doctor's instructions. Dealers of illegal drugs routinely get sentenced to decades in prison and have all of their assets confiscated by the government, yet, pharmaceutical executives, who kill 3x as many Americans, never even get arrested, let alone prosecuted and incarcerated. Right now, Pfizer and Moderna have vaccines that older Americans need to increase our chances of surviving covid, in the event that we get sick. That doesn't mean the pharmaceutical companies are suddenly all wonderful. There's a revolving door between the CDC, FDA, and for-profit pharmaceutical companies. So, it's not surprising, at all, that the FDA is claiming it'll take them 75 years to produce all of the documents they have related to the approval of Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine. They're covering for their friends still working in the industry. Gotta keep profits up, so they can all exercise their piles of stock options and become even more fabulously wealthy. We're still going to get a fifth vaccination for Covid sometime soon. Apparently, the shots work. No one in our family has gotten covid yet, as far as we know, anyway. Still not a fan of the pill pushers.

Conflating medical science, the pharmaceutical industry, and the for-profit American health insurance industry is facile, but inaccurate. And unfortunately, it is the source of a ton of (often highly profitable) misinformation and even disinformation.

At the expense of our public health, unfortunately.

There is a heck of a lot of slippage in your post from one area to another, conflating a ton of separate issues into one big, messy bag. Again, facile, but conspiracy-laden and inaccurate.

Cawl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1325 on: September 25, 2022, 11:35:23 AM »
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.
Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.

It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."

I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.

wenchsenior

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1326 on: September 25, 2022, 12:36:44 PM »
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.
Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.

It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."

I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.

What an incredibly bizarre post. Entertaining, though.

Kris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1327 on: September 25, 2022, 02:58:47 PM »
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.
Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.

It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."

I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.

What an incredibly bizarre post. Entertaining, though.

Yeah, it is bizarre. I think it is kind of revealing, though. I’ve noticed that a lot of anti-vaxxers/“skeptics” and Covid deniers have something in common with Q-anon people and frankly people who are prone to conspiracy theories in general. Namely, the sense of being in some sort of anti-establishment in-group that knows more/better than the mainstream “sheep” who are too blind to see what the cool rebels who think for themselves can.

It’s an attractive message that has been cynically used for political and economic gain a whole lot lately. Because it works really well on some people. People like to believe that they’re special. That they have some more acute insight that makes them stand out from others.

So, I guess what the poster is projecting is astonishment/mockery that the “liberals” he knows used to think they were all cool and anti-establishment, but now they are exposing themselves as phonies because they aren’t rejecting science, and they’re… buying merch at concerts.

Vaccine skepticism is the new “real” punk rock stance, is I guess what he’s trying to say.

Making a connection between rejecting mainstream music and rejecting scientific consensus on vaccine research is quite a leap, but that seems to be the gist of it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 03:09:16 PM by Kris »

Cawl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1328 on: September 25, 2022, 04:46:00 PM »
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.
Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.

It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."

I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.

What an incredibly bizarre post. Entertaining, though.

Yeah, it is bizarre. I think it is kind of revealing, though. I’ve noticed that a lot of anti-vaxxers/“skeptics” and Covid deniers have something in common with Q-anon people and frankly people who are prone to conspiracy theories in general. Namely, the sense of being in some sort of anti-establishment in-group that knows more/better than the mainstream “sheep” who are too blind to see what the cool rebels who think for themselves can.

It’s an attractive message that has been cynically used for political and economic gain a whole lot lately. Because it works really well on some people. People like to believe that they’re special. That they have some more acute insight that makes them stand out from others.

So, I guess what the poster is projecting is astonishment/mockery that the “liberals” he knows used to think they were all cool and anti-establishment, but now they are exposing themselves as phonies because they aren’t rejecting science, and they’re… buying merch at concerts.

Vaccine skepticism is the new “real” punk rock stance, is I guess what he’s trying to say.

Making a connection between rejecting mainstream music and rejecting scientific consensus on vaccine research is quite a leap, but that seems to be the gist of it.
Let me put it this way, the "punk rock" person I was talking about has spent several years doing pot, cocaine, mushrooms, LSD and whatever drugs come out of some rando's fanny pack at concerts because "the government lies to people about how bad drugs are."

One would expect that same skepticism to be applied to vaccines. Unfortunately no.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1329 on: September 25, 2022, 05:23:12 PM »
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.
Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.

It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."

I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.

What an incredibly bizarre post. Entertaining, though.

Yeah, it is bizarre. I think it is kind of revealing, though. I’ve noticed that a lot of anti-vaxxers/“skeptics” and Covid deniers have something in common with Q-anon people and frankly people who are prone to conspiracy theories in general. Namely, the sense of being in some sort of anti-establishment in-group that knows more/better than the mainstream “sheep” who are too blind to see what the cool rebels who think for themselves can.

It’s an attractive message that has been cynically used for political and economic gain a whole lot lately. Because it works really well on some people. People like to believe that they’re special. That they have some more acute insight that makes them stand out from others.

So, I guess what the poster is projecting is astonishment/mockery that the “liberals” he knows used to think they were all cool and anti-establishment, but now they are exposing themselves as phonies because they aren’t rejecting science, and they’re… buying merch at concerts.

Vaccine skepticism is the new “real” punk rock stance, is I guess what he’s trying to say.

Making a connection between rejecting mainstream music and rejecting scientific consensus on vaccine research is quite a leap, but that seems to be the gist of it.
Let me put it this way, the "punk rock" person I was talking about has spent several years doing pot, cocaine, mushrooms, LSD and whatever drugs come out of some rando's fanny pack at concerts because "the government lies to people about how bad drugs are."

One would expect that same skepticism to be applied to vaccines. Unfortunately no.

I mean, arguably the most punk-rock thing one can do is to flame out quickly and die of a heroin overdose in your twenties. But I’m guessing the connection between denying Covid science and dying an early, preventable death is unintentional.

But also… dude, you are advancing a whole straw man “liberal” philosophy based on literally one person’s faulty reasoning? You are advancing the same “the government lies to people” reasoning as your thought process?

I mean… really?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 05:25:24 PM by Kris »

Cawl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1330 on: September 25, 2022, 06:37:26 PM »
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.
Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.

It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."

I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.

What an incredibly bizarre post. Entertaining, though.

Yeah, it is bizarre. I think it is kind of revealing, though. I’ve noticed that a lot of anti-vaxxers/“skeptics” and Covid deniers have something in common with Q-anon people and frankly people who are prone to conspiracy theories in general. Namely, the sense of being in some sort of anti-establishment in-group that knows more/better than the mainstream “sheep” who are too blind to see what the cool rebels who think for themselves can.

It’s an attractive message that has been cynically used for political and economic gain a whole lot lately. Because it works really well on some people. People like to believe that they’re special. That they have some more acute insight that makes them stand out from others.

So, I guess what the poster is projecting is astonishment/mockery that the “liberals” he knows used to think they were all cool and anti-establishment, but now they are exposing themselves as phonies because they aren’t rejecting science, and they’re… buying merch at concerts.

Vaccine skepticism is the new “real” punk rock stance, is I guess what he’s trying to say.

Making a connection between rejecting mainstream music and rejecting scientific consensus on vaccine research is quite a leap, but that seems to be the gist of it.
Let me put it this way, the "punk rock" person I was talking about has spent several years doing pot, cocaine, mushrooms, LSD and whatever drugs come out of some rando's fanny pack at concerts because "the government lies to people about how bad drugs are."

One would expect that same skepticism to be applied to vaccines. Unfortunately no.

I mean, arguably the most punk-rock thing one can do is to flame out quickly and die of a heroin overdose in your twenties. But I’m guessing the connection between denying Covid science and dying an early, preventable death is unintentional.

But also… dude, you are advancing a whole straw man “liberal” philosophy based on literally one person’s faulty reasoning? You are advancing the same “the government lies to people” reasoning as your thought process?

I mean… really?
It is several people's faulty reasoning , not just his. I felt like I had to explain the "punk rock" aspect of my post. Most everyone else's failures at COVID have been "appeal to authority." And even as those authorities have been proven wrong (remember when vaccines prevented transmission) they have not reassessed.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1331 on: September 25, 2022, 07:00:59 PM »
Oh we’re doing this again?

Kris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1332 on: September 25, 2022, 07:20:48 PM »
Oh we’re doing this again?

I guess so. Perpetually.

sui generis

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1333 on: September 25, 2022, 07:23:24 PM »

Abe

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1334 on: September 25, 2022, 07:25:29 PM »
Oh we’re doing this again?

I guess so. Perpetually.

Groooaaannn.

Well, now my mother is also getting chemo in addition to 95% of my patients, so an extra middle finger to anti-vaxxers.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1335 on: September 25, 2022, 08:29:46 PM »
The pharmaceutical industry always has been sleazy af. Americans are some of the most highly medicated humans on Earth, and yet some of the sickest. Gee, wonder if there might be any connection there? Something like 3/4 of all Americans who die from drugs each year, die from pharmaceuticals legally prescribed and taken according to a doctor's instructions. Dealers of illegal drugs routinely get sentenced to decades in prison and have all of their assets confiscated by the government, yet, pharmaceutical executives, who kill 3x as many Americans, never even get arrested, let alone prosecuted and incarcerated. Right now, Pfizer and Moderna have vaccines that older Americans need to increase our chances of surviving covid, in the event that we get sick. That doesn't mean the pharmaceutical companies are suddenly all wonderful. There's a revolving door between the CDC, FDA, and for-profit pharmaceutical companies. So, it's not surprising, at all, that the FDA is claiming it'll take them 75 years to produce all of the documents they have related to the approval of Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine. They're covering for their friends still working in the industry. Gotta keep profits up, so they can all exercise their piles of stock options and become even more fabulously wealthy. We're still going to get a fifth vaccination for Covid sometime soon. Apparently, the shots work. No one in our family has gotten covid yet, as far as we know, anyway. Still not a fan of the pill pushers.

Conflating medical science, the pharmaceutical industry, and the for-profit American health insurance industry is facile, but inaccurate. And unfortunately, it is the source of a ton of (often highly profitable) misinformation and even disinformation.

At the expense of our public health, unfortunately.

There is a heck of a lot of slippage in your post from one area to another, conflating a ton of separate issues into one big, messy bag. Again, facile, but conspiracy-laden and inaccurate.
What exactly do you believe is "conspiracy-laden and inaccurate?" The for-profit medical industry in the US has a fundamental conflict of interest. The more 'healthcare' patients receive, the more money the industry makes, but higher levels of healthcare don't necessarily correlate with better health outcomes. See, Less Medicine, More Health, by Dr. H. Gilbert Welch.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1336 on: September 26, 2022, 07:13:03 AM »
That's more "a breakdown in trust in public institutions" problem. Biggest example I can think of off the top of my head is "why should vaccine data be released in 75 years." That would make most people do a double take. (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/why-a-judge-ordered-fda-to-release-covid-19-vaccine-data-pronto)

I came across this comment and don't think it got enough consideration in the discussion.

Pharmaceutical companies and the for profit medical industry in the US both have a bad name . . . largely because they've proven themselves unworthy of public trust multiple times in the past.  Government agencies do not have a similar past.

In light of that, I don't personally think that the FDA is involved in a conspiracy with big pharma to hide the results of the covid vaccinations.  Despite not thinking there's a conspiracy here, I'd really like to see a release of the vaccine data to independent scientists.  While there are a few reasons why the data release may be slowed by a few months, or even a year . . . it's hard to see the 75 year proposed release date as reasonable in any way.  Even as someone who doesn't believe that this is a clear indication of guilt, I have to admit that it's weird.

If government organizations act in more transparent ways, it would go a long way towards taking the wind out of the sails of conspiracy theorists and help rebuild trust among the people.

Cawl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1337 on: September 26, 2022, 08:42:10 AM »
Oh we’re doing this again?
No? August 2022 CDC guidelines says unvaccinated and vaccinated have the same guidelines. There isn't really a reason to rehash it since I have no interest in getting vaccinated.

Although I had been curious on what justifications there are for vaccine mandates since natural immunity is a thing now, at least according to the CDC.

GuitarStv

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1338 on: September 26, 2022, 08:50:03 AM »
Although I had been curious on what justifications there are for vaccine mandates since natural immunity is a thing now, at least according to the CDC.

Vaccine mandates made sense initially, with earlier variants it was shown to significantly reduce the chances of spreading as well as catching the disease.

With current variants we've found that vaccination (and natural immunity) are both found to reduce transmission of the disease slightly.  However vaccination/natural immunity are both shown to be less effective than masking with a proper respirator - so it's hard to understand why vaccine mandates would be in place where mask mandates are not.

If the concern is transmission reduction it goes something like this:
Vaccination - safe
Mask - safer
Vaccination and Mask - safest

Poundwise

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1339 on: September 26, 2022, 08:52:34 AM »
As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.

The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?


Responding to the above, this may have been posted before but it bears repeating:
Quote
  In a detailed analysis of nearly 43 million people, the risk of myocarditis in unvaccinated individuals after COVID-19 infection was at least 11 times higher compared to people who developed myocarditis after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine or booster dose, according to new research published today in the American Heart Association’s flagship, peer-reviewed journal Circulation
https://newsroom.heart.org/news/myocarditis-risk-significantly-higher-after-covid-19-infection-vs-after-a-covid-19-vaccine

Anecdotally from living in an area that was hit hard in spring of 2020 by Covid, I personally knew several people who suffered heart attacks, strokes, and embolisms after catching Covid, before the vaccine was available, and there was also a surge of people who died suddenly that spring but we don't know their covid status because tests were so hard to find then.

Cawl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1340 on: September 26, 2022, 11:04:52 AM »
That's more "a breakdown in trust in public institutions" problem. Biggest example I can think of off the top of my head is "why should vaccine data be released in 75 years." That would make most people do a double take. (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/why-a-judge-ordered-fda-to-release-covid-19-vaccine-data-pronto)

I came across this comment and don't think it got enough consideration in the discussion.

Pharmaceutical companies and the for profit medical industry in the US both have a bad name . . . largely because they've proven themselves unworthy of public trust multiple times in the past.  Government agencies do not have a similar past.

In light of that, I don't personally think that the FDA is involved in a conspiracy with big pharma to hide the results of the covid vaccinations.  Despite not thinking there's a conspiracy here, I'd really like to see a release of the vaccine data to independent scientists.  While there are a few reasons why the data release may be slowed by a few months, or even a year . . . it's hard to see the 75 year proposed release date as reasonable in any way.  Even as someone who doesn't believe that this is a clear indication of guilt, I have to admit that it's weird.

If government organizations act in more transparent ways, it would go a long way towards taking the wind out of the sails of conspiracy theorists and help rebuild trust among the people.
Best of luck on the journey of discovery to find the answer for that.

Kris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1341 on: September 26, 2022, 11:21:28 AM »
That's more "a breakdown in trust in public institutions" problem. Biggest example I can think of off the top of my head is "why should vaccine data be released in 75 years." That would make most people do a double take. (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/why-a-judge-ordered-fda-to-release-covid-19-vaccine-data-pronto)

I came across this comment and don't think it got enough consideration in the discussion.

Pharmaceutical companies and the for profit medical industry in the US both have a bad name . . . largely because they've proven themselves unworthy of public trust multiple times in the past.  Government agencies do not have a similar past.

In light of that, I don't personally think that the FDA is involved in a conspiracy with big pharma to hide the results of the covid vaccinations.  Despite not thinking there's a conspiracy here, I'd really like to see a release of the vaccine data to independent scientists.  While there are a few reasons why the data release may be slowed by a few months, or even a year . . . it's hard to see the 75 year proposed release date as reasonable in any way.  Even as someone who doesn't believe that this is a clear indication of guilt, I have to admit that it's weird.

If government organizations act in more transparent ways, it would go a long way towards taking the wind out of the sails of conspiracy theorists and help rebuild trust among the people.

Agreed. For people who are inclined toward conspiracy theories, they will latch into anything and add it to the narrative they are constructing. Better not to just hand them any fuel for their already raging fire.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1342 on: September 26, 2022, 12:37:33 PM »
As to the OP question, after 2+ years being careful and managing to avoid Covid, I travelled to a work conference in early summer 2022 (vaccinated and boosted) and given the travel, indoor meetings, etc., thought for sure I would test positive when I got home.  Somehow, did not get Covid and all tests were negative. 

Got overconfident and travelled to another work conference a month later.  A few days after I got home, felt sick, and yup, Covid.  It SUCKED.  I was jealous of those stories I heard of people who had mild cases, because this was not mild at all.  Two days in particular were really, really bad, with me monitoring oxygen and trying anything I could to fall asleep in a sea of sweat to make the pain stop. 

For what it's worth, during the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots."  Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots."  Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.

So I'm personally getting more back to normal, but am still exercising caution and trying to balance work and life obligations with unnecessary risk. 

sailinlight

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1343 on: September 26, 2022, 06:32:19 PM »
during the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots."  Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots."  Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.

I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1344 on: September 26, 2022, 06:57:34 PM »
during the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots."  Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots."  Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.

I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?

This is not a remotely fringe argument.  That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309
etc.

sailinlight

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1345 on: September 26, 2022, 07:57:33 PM »
during the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots."  Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots."  Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.

I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?

This is not a remotely fringe argument.  That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309
etc.
Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different ways

Turtle

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1346 on: September 27, 2022, 06:57:35 AM »
As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.

The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?


Responding to the above, this may have been posted before but it bears repeating:
Quote
  In a detailed analysis of nearly 43 million people, the risk of myocarditis in unvaccinated individuals after COVID-19 infection was at least 11 times higher compared to people who developed myocarditis after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine or booster dose, according to new research published today in the American Heart Association’s flagship, peer-reviewed journal Circulation
https://newsroom.heart.org/news/myocarditis-risk-significantly-higher-after-covid-19-infection-vs-after-a-covid-19-vaccine

Anecdotally from living in an area that was hit hard in spring of 2020 by Covid, I personally knew several people who suffered heart attacks, strokes, and embolisms after catching Covid, before the vaccine was available, and there was also a surge of people who died suddenly that spring but we don't know their covid status because tests were so hard to find then.

I had a young friend who was complaining about allergies being especially bad the spring of 2020.  Covid tests were hard to come by.  People in their mid 30's don't generally die of springtime allergies, but the death wasn't counted as Covid because of never testing.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1347 on: September 27, 2022, 07:28:56 AM »
during the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots."  Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots."  Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.

I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?

This is not a remotely fringe argument.  That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309
etc.
Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different ways

Can you clarify what you mean by your comment?

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
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  • Posts: 2431
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1348 on: September 27, 2022, 08:10:12 AM »
during the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots."  Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots."  Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.

I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?

This is not a remotely fringe argument.  That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309
etc.
Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different ways

Can you clarify what you mean by your comment?

Right??  Maybe some people prefer to get their science from some source other than reputable scientific journals or...scientists...idk.

wenchsenior

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  • Posts: 4112
Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1349 on: September 27, 2022, 12:14:50 PM »
during the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots."  Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots."  Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.

I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?

This is not a remotely fringe argument.  That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309
etc.
Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different ways

What the everliving fuck are you babbling about? What is even happening on this thread right now? Are we letting flat earthers in, too?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 12:16:42 PM by wenchsenior »