Author Topic: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"  (Read 214372 times)

Hula Hoop

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1250 on: June 24, 2022, 03:58:02 AM »
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2c

If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one

For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky

We are all currently wearing our FFP2 masks when inside public spaces like public transport, work (while outside my office), stores, my daughter's violin recital yesterday etc. All 4 of us are fully vaxxed but we are planning a visit to vulnerable family members later this summer.  Apart from infecting our family members, it would also suck to have to cancel an expensive and long looked forward to trip.

We might reassess the risks we're willing to take later this summer when we don't have plans which might lead to infecting vulnerable family (one of whom is unvaxxed but that's a whole 'nother story...)  When I see people out and about without masks on the bus or in crowded indoor environments, I assume that they are not in contact (consciously) with people who are particularly vulnerable to Covid. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 03:59:49 AM by Hula Hoop »

Jules Anne

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1251 on: June 25, 2022, 12:47:58 AM »
Considering I caught long COVID while wearing a face mask and maintaining distance I put zero stock into a paper mask doing anything more than building false confidence.

neo von retorch

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1252 on: June 25, 2022, 09:07:55 AM »
Considering I caught long COVID while wearing a face mask and maintaining distance I put zero stock into a paper mask doing anything more than building false confidence.

What do you mean you "caught long COVID"?

No one (that's well-informed) thinks that the kinds of masks we wear are 100% safe from getting disease. In fact, they are much more useful for preventing spread to others than protecting yourself. They are an unselfish act of kindness to the people around you.

https://www.umaryland.edu/coronavirus/content/testing-hygiene-and-health/kn95-mask-instructions.php

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If you are exposed to the virus while wearing a KN95, you are less likely to develop COVID-19

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All these masks reduce the spread of the virus from the person wearing a mask. However, a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study (2022) found that consistently wearing a N95 or KN95 mask in indoor public settings reduced the odds of getting COVID-19 by 83 percent.

Cassie

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1253 on: June 25, 2022, 04:18:52 PM »
Took air Canada from the states to Ireland for vacation and masks were mandatory. Left on a Friday and by Wednesday night was sick with Covid. I tested and reported to the tour company although I didn’t have to. That’s the end of the tour for me. Others felt sick but didn’t want to be left behind like me so stayed on the tour. Ireland doesn’t have a mandatory quarantine but the company is making me isolate for 8 days before they will send me home. Probably done with international travel as it’s a waste of money and not fun to be stuck in a foreign country alone when sick.

Prairie Gal

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1254 on: June 25, 2022, 05:00:42 PM »
Took air Canada from the states to Ireland for vacation and masks were mandatory. Left on a Friday and by Wednesday night was sick with Covid. I tested and reported to the tour company although I didn’t have to. That’s the end of the tour for me. Others felt sick but didn’t want to be left behind like me so stayed on the tour. Ireland doesn’t have a mandatory quarantine but the company is making me isolate for 8 days before they will send me home. Probably done with international travel as it’s a waste of money and not fun to be stuck in a foreign country alone when sick.

@Cassie, that's awful! If others were sick you may have been exposed by them, and not the plane. It's hard to say. In any case, it sucks. Hope you feel better soon. Did the company offer any kind of partial reimbursement?

Cassie

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1255 on: June 26, 2022, 10:06:19 AM »
They won’t give a refund. My friend that stayed on the tour said that she and many others feel like they have colds which is how I feel. They all finished the tour and leaving tomorrow. I can’t leave until Friday.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1256 on: June 29, 2022, 08:45:44 AM »
They won’t give a refund. My friend that stayed on the tour said that she and many others feel like they have colds which is how I feel. They all finished the tour and leaving tomorrow. I can’t leave until Friday.

I am so sorry this happened to you.  I hope you return to health and get home safely to continue recovering.

therethere

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1257 on: June 29, 2022, 08:54:33 AM »
Took air Canada from the states to Ireland for vacation and masks were mandatory. Left on a Friday and by Wednesday night was sick with Covid. I tested and reported to the tour company although I didn’t have to. That’s the end of the tour for me. Others felt sick but didn’t want to be left behind like me so stayed on the tour. Ireland doesn’t have a mandatory quarantine but the company is making me isolate for 8 days before they will send me home. Probably done with international travel as it’s a waste of money and not fun to be stuck in a foreign country alone when sick.

I hope you're feeling better soon. Luck will have it that you will feel 100% on the first or second day back. COVID got me on an international trip in Dec 2019. I was deathly sick for like 5-6 days before deciding to call it and get a flight home. Luckily (or not for others nearby) this was before testing and quarantine requirements so I could actually go home. Being sick in another country is a special kind of horrible, especially if there is a foreign food/water factor. Although I have some regrets now for not maximizing travel during remote work and COVID. It was really hard to even think of the idea of getting sick and stuck in a foreign place again. It was also a reason why I was really judgmental and hard on those who were traveling so non-chalantly before the vaccine.

Cassie

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1258 on: June 29, 2022, 04:08:36 PM »
I had a great deal of difficultly getting the tour company to make my arrangements to go home. They contracted with a 3rd party vendor that is incompetent. Luckily Monday I got this sweet young guy in the support department of the tour company that had a mom my age and he felt so bad for me. He used his contacts in other departments to book my flight home on Friday and it’s a excellent flight. I am in the middle of nowhere 4 hours from Dublin and he hired a private driver to pick me up tomorrow morning and then take me to the hotel at the airport.

He is truly a angel and I let him know that I will never forget his kindness and extra effort to help me. I have been having trouble sleeping because I am so stressed out. This town doesn’t have a train so getting to Dublin would have involved multiple forms of transport. I took a tour with my friend because I didn’t think it would be fun to travel alone and of course I end up alone sick in a foreign country for a week.  I am feeling very lucky that I didn’t get very sick considering my age and medical conditions. Good thing I was vaccinated and boosted.

former player

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1259 on: July 04, 2022, 02:49:03 AM »
Here's a paper on the odds of getting long covid.  It's bad news if you are middle aged, female, asthmatic or have existing health issues -

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/up-to-one-in-six-people-covid-19-long-covid-symptoms

And long covid is serious enough for 20% to be unable to work and 45% to need reduced work schedules, with a terrifying list of potential symptoms -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/15/long-covid-has-over-200-symptoms-and-leaves-1-in-5-unable-to-work-study-finds/amp/

Numbers are rising here in the UK and I'm back to masking up every time indoors, not just for the longer/riskier exposures.

mm1970

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1260 on: July 04, 2022, 04:25:59 AM »
Sweet, I'm middle aged and female!

We are visiting family in the northeast. COVID isn't a thing here, or at least they think it isn't. They haven't for a long time. You still see masks in grocery stores, but not many.

We masked on the planes and tested when we arrived. (Also because I had two close contacts before we left.) Numbers really are down locally but high where we flew from. It's been really nice.

Our dog sitter had it for the second time when we left, but he's fine now and the dog enjoys extra walks.

Cassie, I'm Soo sorry that happened to you.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2022, 05:21:37 AM by mm1970 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1261 on: July 04, 2022, 07:27:09 AM »
Here's a paper on the odds of getting long covid.  It's bad news if you are middle aged, female, asthmatic or have existing health issues -

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/up-to-one-in-six-people-covid-19-long-covid-symptoms

And long covid is serious enough for 20% to be unable to work and 45% to need reduced work schedules, with a terrifying list of potential symptoms -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/15/long-covid-has-over-200-symptoms-and-leaves-1-in-5-unable-to-work-study-finds/amp/

Numbers are rising here in the UK and I'm back to masking up every time indoors, not just for the longer/riskier exposures.


The study that your first article is based on is an interesting read (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-30836-0.epdf?).  I was surprised to see the ages worst impacted by long covid . . . highest risk for those aged 45–54 and 55–69, with lower risk above and below those ranges.  That's very different than the original "covid is only a problem for old people" advice that we were all getting.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1262 on: July 04, 2022, 09:46:51 AM »
Welp, our county has been advised by the CDC to go back to masking indoors, so that's what I'm going to do. 
I'm guessing when I get to the store this a.m. that most people won't be masked, though.  Will be interesting to see if they change their minds if the case numbers continue to climb.

Mr. Green

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1263 on: July 04, 2022, 11:29:27 AM »
Here in Wilmington, NC everything is completely back to normal, COVID or not. It's rare to see a mask on someone's face. Bars, restaurants, concerts, tourism is all 100% back to normal, with things booming even more than pre-pandemic levels because of WFH and revenge travel.

I mask up if I'm going indoors more than briefly or if it's crowded. My wife and I just don't do much that puts us indoors with the public very much anyway since we never have eaten out much or been big consumers. 90% of my indoor public time is easily the grocery store, and with is just being two of us most of our grocery trips are quite quick.

JoJo

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1264 on: July 04, 2022, 11:37:13 AM »
Traveling Chicago, Wisconsin, Minnesota last couple weeks.  Other than about 2% of people wearing masks seems back to normal. 

HPstache

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1265 on: July 04, 2022, 02:03:52 PM »
Today was the first time I even thought about covid in months... was golfing and remembered how silly it was that they shut down golfing and then put little bags on the ball washingthing at each hole once it resumed so you couldn't use them.  Strange times

Abe

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1266 on: July 04, 2022, 07:49:16 PM »
Here's a paper on the odds of getting long covid.  It's bad news if you are middle aged, female, asthmatic or have existing health issues -

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/up-to-one-in-six-people-covid-19-long-covid-symptoms

And long covid is serious enough for 20% to be unable to work and 45% to need reduced work schedules, with a terrifying list of potential symptoms -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/15/long-covid-has-over-200-symptoms-and-leaves-1-in-5-unable-to-work-study-finds/amp/

Numbers are rising here in the UK and I'm back to masking up every time indoors, not just for the longer/riskier exposures.


The study that your first article is based on is an interesting read (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-30836-0.epdf?).  I was surprised to see the ages worst impacted by long covid . . . highest risk for those aged 45–54 and 55–69, with lower risk above and below those ranges.  That's very different than the original "covid is only a problem for old people" advice that we were all getting.

Another concerning finding is that in observational studies (subject to various confounders that mean the actual number reported should be taken with a grain of salt), the vaccination does not eliminate the risk of long COVID symptoms. I think overall we are stuck with this disease for a long time, and it'll just occasionally pick people off through disability or death.

The absolute damage to the population remains to be determined, if we are lucky it'll be like influenza eventually. For now, as of June the US has had about 80k deaths (or on track for 3x the highest annual death rate of severe influenza strains) attributed to COVID-induced pneumonia, versus 2k deaths to influenza. Deaths in some fashion attributed to COVID-19 (but not necessarily documenting a pneumonia as the cause of death) is about 150k.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 07:51:47 PM by Abe »

Cannot Wait!

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GuitarStv

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1268 on: July 05, 2022, 08:20:18 AM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/02/covid-anti-vaccine-smoking/622819/

This article suggests covid is the new smoking...

This are certainly worse for the unvaccinated.  I have some trouble with the argument that vaccination is a miracle solution to everything though.

The main concern for most of us is not dying (that's largely clustered to people with medical conditions and the very elderly).  It's long covid.  Between 8-12% of vaccinated people who get covid will also develop long covid (https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/long-covid-19-poses-risks-to-vaccinated-people-too).  Vaccination lowers your chance of getting covid after infection by only 15% (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-01453-0).

Your chances of getting covid are lower if you're vaccinated and boosted but protection against omicron from the vaccine is much lower than delta or the original covid and we know that the vaccine lasts for a relatively short period of time - losing significant potency after a couple months.

So it stands to reason that a lot of 'non-smokers' who did everything right are going to have long lasting health problems from this disease.

SingleMaltScot

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1269 on: July 05, 2022, 11:16:57 AM »
I usually only lurk in the silence, but thought I would wade into this one.

I've pretty much gone back to normal with a few exceptions.   On airlines when required, of course I will wear a mask.  I also wear a mask in some of our factories where it is still required.
I do find myself still giving people a fair amount of physical space, I think this one will be ingrained for quite a while.

There are several reasons I've relaxed my stance as public health guidance has also relaxed.  Vaccination rates are quite high in my area, and I have had 3 doses.

The fist is that Covid-19 is never going away.  Unless some future pan corona virus vaccine can eradicate this thing, then we're stuck with it just like the other 4 circulating corona viruses.
As vaccines have rolled out and higher levels of infection acquired immunity have arisen, the hospitalization burden has been largely separated from infection rates.

In a post Omicron world it is almost impossible to avoid infection.  Prior to Omicron, I knew almost no one living near me who had been infected with Covid-19.  After the Omicron waves I know almost no one who did not get infected.  Those that didn't get infected had booster shots right at the start of the first Omicron wave. 
As boosting everyone every 8 to 12 weeks to keep neutralizing antibody levels high is not a viable strategy, I think almost every one will get infected at some point.
There is still much uncertainty, but I suspect that we're going to see long lasting protection against severe infection due to B-cell and T-cell immune response.  We may get infected, but the impact should be fairly mild.

The mask mandates, as implemented, have been mixed at best depending on the data sources you look at.   Cloth masks, which are allowed in so many places are not effective.
The studies on one way masking show that a good fitting N95 type respirator can provide good protection against infection.  For those that are immune compromised, or work closely with those that are, I think wearing N95's is very prudent, as is getting every booster available.

Long covid is a concern, I suspect I had it as many others did.   I had quite a few odd symptoms 2 to 4 months after having Covid, that seem to have gone away in the last couple of months.
Unfortunately this one will be difficult to avoid as people are going to get exposed to this virus.  Hopefully additional research can shed light on what is going on here.

We all have to make decisions that feel right for us as the data becomes available.   Should hospitalizations start increasing substantially due to reinfection or a new variant, then I'll mask up and start taking additional precautions.  I'll be planning for a booster, and a flu shot, in the fall.

Tempname23

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1270 on: July 05, 2022, 06:34:28 PM »
The only concession I have given regarding Covid for the last 7 months has been that I still don't feel right about going to the gym.

 OK, I have capitulated, I joined the gym this month, been there 3 times so far.

Focus_on_the_fire

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1271 on: July 05, 2022, 08:08:53 PM »
Omicron is raging where I am right now among vaccinated and boosted people, so we are still masking.

It’s difficult to be safe because people have convinced themselves it’s over. People couldn’t figure out why I passed on going to an annual industry conference that draws from around the country. The FAQ proudly stated no masks, vaccination or negative Covid tests would be required for the indoor event.

Yeah, nah, I’m good.

Shane

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1272 on: July 05, 2022, 08:42:00 PM »
In our part of Pennsylvania, covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are at about their lowest point for the past 2+ years, since this whole thing started. Masks aren't required anywhere, afaik. A few people, here and there, are wearing masks voluntarily, but almost no one. Family and I are all fully vaccinated and boosted, and have been living our lives normally, just like before covid started. If they come out with new vaccines, we'll gladly take them, right away, but, besides that, we're not doing anything differently than we did pre-2020.

big_owl

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1273 on: July 06, 2022, 07:10:32 PM »
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted.  We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless.  And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout.  We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out.  We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later.  Vaccines can SMD.

sui generis

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1274 on: July 06, 2022, 07:21:42 PM »
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted.  We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless.  And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout.  We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out.  We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later.  Vaccines can SMD.

Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did?  If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it.  In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.

As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it.  My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it.  I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).  I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.

Zikoris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1275 on: July 06, 2022, 10:58:54 PM »
Having finally caught Covid now, I personally have no regrets about not getting vaccinated. My experience was pretty much identical to that of the triple-vaccinated people I know who have caught it. A couple of days pretty sick and mostly sleeping and reading in bed, and a week of chilling in my apartment with VERY mild symptoms (minor sniffle and fatigue) mostly reading on the couch while waiting to be 100% to return to work. I'm fine now and back to hiking, etc.

Interestingly, as far as I can tell I'm the last person in my social circle to get it. Being mildly antisocial seems to be the trick. The incubation math tells me I either caught it on a caving expedition or a ferry, both of which are extremely uncommon things for me to be doing.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1276 on: July 06, 2022, 11:16:45 PM »
I had a great deal of difficultly getting the tour company to make my arrangements to go home. They contracted with a 3rd party vendor that is incompetent. Luckily Monday I got this sweet young guy in the support department of the tour company that had a mom my age and he felt so bad for me. He used his contacts in other departments to book my flight home on Friday and it’s a excellent flight. I am in the middle of nowhere 4 hours from Dublin and he hired a private driver to pick me up tomorrow morning and then take me to the hotel at the airport.

He is truly a angel and I let him know that I will never forget his kindness and extra effort to help me. I have been having trouble sleeping because I am so stressed out. This town doesn’t have a train so getting to Dublin would have involved multiple forms of transport. I took a tour with my friend because I didn’t think it would be fun to travel alone and of course I end up alone sick in a foreign country for a week.  I am feeling very lucky that I didn’t get very sick considering my age and medical conditions. Good thing I was vaccinated and boosted.

Hope you're safe and sound at home now! The whole ordeal almost makes you want to hide the fact that you have COVID. I'm glad you were in a democratic English-speaking country and got to stay in a private room in a hotel.

HPstache

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1277 on: July 06, 2022, 11:21:59 PM »
Having finally caught Covid now, I personally have no regrets about not getting vaccinated. My experience was pretty much identical to that of the triple-vaccinated people I know who have caught it. A couple of days pretty sick and mostly sleeping and reading in bed, and a week of chilling in my apartment with VERY mild symptoms (minor sniffle and fatigue) mostly reading on the couch while waiting to be 100% to return to work. I'm fine now and back to hiking, etc.

Interestingly, as far as I can tell I'm the last person in my social circle to get it. Being mildly antisocial seems to be the trick. The incubation math tells me I either caught it on a caving expedition or a ferry, both of which are extremely uncommon things for me to be doing.

What about travel though?  I know that you used to do a ton of that pre covid, no regrets for not being vaccinated to travel?

Zikoris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1278 on: July 06, 2022, 11:48:33 PM »
Having finally caught Covid now, I personally have no regrets about not getting vaccinated. My experience was pretty much identical to that of the triple-vaccinated people I know who have caught it. A couple of days pretty sick and mostly sleeping and reading in bed, and a week of chilling in my apartment with VERY mild symptoms (minor sniffle and fatigue) mostly reading on the couch while waiting to be 100% to return to work. I'm fine now and back to hiking, etc.

Interestingly, as far as I can tell I'm the last person in my social circle to get it. Being mildly antisocial seems to be the trick. The incubation math tells me I either caught it on a caving expedition or a ferry, both of which are extremely uncommon things for me to be doing.

What about travel though?  I know that you used to do a ton of that pre covid, no regrets for not being vaccinated to travel?

The type of travel that's been available the last few years isn't very appealing to me - I have no interest in doing a pile of covid tests, wearing a mask for 10+ hours on a plane, quarantining, and having local restrictions stop me from doing things I'd want to do. I like to travel in a very no-bullshit way, and there's still waaaay too much BS for it to be my idea of a fun trip. I'd rather wait to go overseas until I can travel the way I want to - no masks, tests, etc. Now things are starting to open up more, and restrictions are dropping, that's probably going to be fairly soon. We have been doing a good amount of within-Canada trips, which have been a lot of fun. The above-mentioned caving was part of one.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1279 on: July 07, 2022, 07:05:04 AM »
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted.  We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless.  And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout.  We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out.  We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later.  Vaccines can SMD.

Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did?  If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.

As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it.  My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it.  I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).  I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.

Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1280 on: July 07, 2022, 07:21:37 AM »
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted.  We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless.  And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout.  We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out.  We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later.  Vaccines can SMD.

Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did?  If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.

As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it.  My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it.  I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).  I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.

Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.

Covid is definitely not a death sentence.  The majority of people will survive it without vaccination.

That said, using the latest Omicron data from March 2022 . . . your odds of dying from covid are roughly twenty times higher if you haven't been vaccinated and boosted.  (It's about ten times higher compared to those who have been vaccinated and not boosted. - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-compare-covid-deaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/)

While vaccination doesn't provide perfect immunity from the disease, it significantly reduces your chances of dying and slightly reduces your chances of getting long covid.  Claiming that the difference between vaccinated/boosted and unvaccinated is minimal is just flat out wrong.

neo von retorch

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1281 on: July 07, 2022, 07:27:58 AM »
...but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).

Well, technically it seems like you can catch Omicron variants more than once. But there's also the possibility of you getting it but having little or no symptoms, in which case, it might not be able to mess up those plans!

But strong agree with you on vaccination. It prepares your body for a battle. You fight the battle and you're unhappy you were prepared? Gee next time run into battle naked... ? Why'd they make me put armor on when I still had to fight...

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1282 on: July 07, 2022, 07:54:01 AM »
...but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).

Well, technically it seems like you can catch Omicron variants more than once. But there's also the possibility of you getting it but having little or no symptoms, in which case, it might not be able to mess up those plans!

But strong agree with you on vaccination. It prepares your body for a battle. You fight the battle and you're unhappy you were prepared? Gee next time run into battle naked... ? Why'd they make me put armor on when I still had to fight...

As to the bolded, yes, but my understanding is no one is getting it faster than at least 90 days.  Which would have made 3 weeks ago the perfect time to inoculate me for the summer!  But things are changing so fast who knows what the latest is.  I assume it would be pretty shocking if you could get it twice within 90 days, but I had two colds (or something not-COVID) over the course of about 3 weeks in May, so <shrug>.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1283 on: July 07, 2022, 07:56:38 AM »
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted.  We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless.  And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout.  We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out.  We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later.  Vaccines can SMD.

Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did?  If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.

As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it.  My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it.  I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).  I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.

Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.

Really poor form to insinuate my "I might have felt worse without the vaxx" was the same as saying this person would probably have died without the vaxx.  Don't come trying to leverage my words on this warpath against vaccines that you are on.  It's disingenuous.  Make your own argument without taking my words out of context.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1284 on: July 07, 2022, 08:18:53 AM »
...It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal...

Citation needed. Data, please. Anecdotes not accepted.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1285 on: July 07, 2022, 08:22:30 AM »
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted.  We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless.  And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout.  We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out.  We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later.  Vaccines can SMD.

Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did?  If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.

As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it.  My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it.  I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).  I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.

Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.

Covid is definitely not a death sentence.  The majority of people will survive it without vaccination.

That said, using the latest Omicron data from March 2022 . . . your odds of dying from covid are roughly twenty times higher if you haven't been vaccinated and boosted.  (It's about ten times higher compared to those who have been vaccinated and not boosted. - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-compare-covid-deaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/)

While vaccination doesn't provide perfect immunity from the disease, it significantly reduces your chances of dying and slightly reduces your chances of getting long covid.  Claiming that the difference between vaccinated/boosted and unvaccinated is minimal is just flat out wrong.

I know it's unlikely, but I really want to encourage posters who have doubts about the vaccines to read this article. Please understand how much more meaningful this population level data is than your personal experience.

As a counterpoint to "vaccines can smd"... I've also received 3 shots, I also got infected recently, and I also got sick. I'd say my experience was similar to having the flu and I have lingering symptoms of fatigue, headaches, and brain fog at 3 weeks currently. I have no way of knowing whether the vaccinations had any impact on my personal outcome, yet I'm extremely grateful to the people who did the research and everything else necessary to make these vaccines a reality. Regardless of my personal experience it's clear that the vaccines have saved many thousands of lives, reduced human suffering, and helped get the economy/society in general back on track. We have data to support some of that but the sum total benefits are immeasurable.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1286 on: July 07, 2022, 08:27:24 AM »
...but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).

Well, technically it seems like you can catch Omicron variants more than once. But there's also the possibility of you getting it but having little or no symptoms, in which case, it might not be able to mess up those plans!

But strong agree with you on vaccination. It prepares your body for a battle. You fight the battle and you're unhappy you were prepared? Gee next time run into battle naked... ? Why'd they make me put armor on when I still had to fight...

Great analogy!

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1287 on: July 07, 2022, 08:45:00 AM »
...It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal...

Citation needed. Data, please. Anecdotes not accepted.

Just been watching the 2 lines slowly merge together on these graphs.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1288 on: July 07, 2022, 08:47:32 AM »
...It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal...

Citation needed. Data, please. Anecdotes not accepted.
For sure. Numerous studies show that Omicron is just as bad as earlier variants for the unvaccinated.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1289 on: July 07, 2022, 08:53:47 AM »
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted.  We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless.  And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout.  We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out.  We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later.  Vaccines can SMD.

Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did?  If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.

As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it.  My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it.  I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).  I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.

Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.

Really poor form to insinuate my "I might have felt worse without the vaxx" was the same as saying this person would probably have died without the vaxx.  Don't come trying to leverage my words on this warpath against vaccines that you are on.  It's disingenuous.  Make your own argument without taking my words out of context.

"Warpath" Do show your work.
I fully support anyone who chooses to get vaccinated or boosted.
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1290 on: July 07, 2022, 08:54:21 AM »
...It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal...

Citation needed. Data, please. Anecdotes not accepted.

Just been watching the 2 lines slowly merge together on these graphs.
I guess if not dying is all you care about. Personally, the significant risk of long COVID and reduced overall lifespan due to poorer general health as a result of COVID is enough for me.

Mr. Green

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1291 on: July 07, 2022, 08:58:05 AM »
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?
We give credence to the flu vaccine the same way. No one has ever said it will stop you from getting the flu but it does significantly reduce your chances of severe illness. Yet there are still people who get the flu vaccine and will still get pretty sick.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1292 on: July 07, 2022, 09:04:15 AM »
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted.  We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless.  And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout.  We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out.  We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later.  Vaccines can SMD.

Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did?  If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.

As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it.  My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it.  I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).  I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.

Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.

Really poor form to insinuate my "I might have felt worse without the vaxx" was the same as saying this person would probably have died without the vaxx.  Don't come trying to leverage my words on this warpath against vaccines that you are on.  It's disingenuous.  Make your own argument without taking my words out of context.

"Warpath" Do show your work.
I fully support anyone who chooses to get vaccinated or boosted.
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?

Vaccines aren't as effective against current variants. Has anyone argued otherwise?

But to say the difference between "vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal*" is incorrect. The data you cited to back up your conclusion shows the opposite, unless you consider 5x as many deaths "minimal".

neo von retorch

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1293 on: July 07, 2022, 09:14:59 AM »
Just been watching the 2 lines slowly merge together on these graphs.

That's how multipliers work. When one factor gets smaller, the other gets smaller. The difference between them gets smaller.

Let's say it's 5x. Let's start with 50 and 250. The difference is 200. Now let's say that 50 shrinks to 10. The other number would now be 50. The difference is just 40. The absolute difference is much smaller, and yet, the multiplier is the same (5x).

Now, the multiplier has shifted a bit on that graph, but the factor has not been noticeably shrinking all that much - other than what we know about Omicron reducing the net effectiveness of vaccination. As cases/deaths rose and fell, the apparent distance between the lines grew and shrank.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1294 on: July 07, 2022, 09:17:38 AM »
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted.  We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless.  And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout.  We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out.  We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later.  Vaccines can SMD.

Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did?  If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.

As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it.  My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it.  I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).  I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.

Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.

Really poor form to insinuate my "I might have felt worse without the vaxx" was the same as saying this person would probably have died without the vaxx.  Don't come trying to leverage my words on this warpath against vaccines that you are on.  It's disingenuous.  Make your own argument without taking my words out of context.

"Warpath" Do show your work.
I fully support anyone who chooses to get vaccinated or boosted.
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?

Vaccines aren't as effective against current variants. Has anyone argued otherwise?

But to say the difference between "vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal*" is incorrect. The data you cited to back up your conclusion shows the opposite, unless you consider 5x as many deaths "minimal".

You're 5x more likely to hit the lottery if you pay $10 vs $2. When dealing with small percentages, using multipliers makes things look far more dire than they actually are.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1295 on: July 07, 2022, 09:17:41 AM »
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?

You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1296 on: July 07, 2022, 09:28:54 AM »
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?

You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.

If I've said they're not worth taking, I apologize. That's not the argument I was trying to make. I'm just tired of people saying it would've been worse without the vaccine to people who were sick for multiple weeks. Never in my life can I remember that being said for any other illness that has a vaccine.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1297 on: July 07, 2022, 09:40:07 AM »
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?

You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.

If I've said they're not worth taking, I apologize. That's not the argument I was trying to make. I'm just tired of people saying it would've been worse without the vaccine to people who were sick for multiple weeks.

All the evidence that I've read indicates that vaccination reduces severity of disease.  That's why the deaths are so much lower percentage wise for vaccinated people.  It seems likely that outcomes for those people you're mentioning would have been worse were their immune systems completely unprepared for the virus.


Never in my life can I remember that being said for any other illness that has a vaccine.

Never in my life can I remember there being a world wide pandemic.  You have to remember that we're kinda already in a black swan event.

StashingAway

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1298 on: July 07, 2022, 10:30:55 AM »
If I've said they're not worth taking, I apologize. That's not the argument I was trying to make. I'm just tired of people saying it would've been worse without the vaccine to people who were sick for multiple weeks. Never in my life can I remember that being said for any other illness that has a vaccine.

I think I get the frustration. It's annoying to do everything right then get shafted. Kind of a rite of passage for being human, to be honest.

One interesting quote I've heard from economists and statisticians (I don't know who to attribute it to because I catch it in weird places), is that "You cannot judge the quality of a decision base on it's outcome. You can only judge what the decision was with the information available at the time"

Vaccines are a medical intervention. Invariably, the will actually cause more harm to some people at the scale that they're given. If you're one of those people, then the decision to get vaccinated might have felt like the wrong one, but even in retrospect, it was the correct decision if it was made carefully and considerate of all of the options. It will also be easy for random events to be associated with them from the scale as well. The overlap from random medical conditions and people who have received the vaccine creates some incorrectly attributed correlation.

Bottom line is that the people telling you this are probably correct. They might not be, but they probably are based on the global statistics. There is a small chance that the vaccine didn't help, and an even smaller one that it caused problems. I'm not saying that it didn't, *but*, oof, you could have dodged a pretty hefty bullet with your 2 week sickness.
 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2022, 10:32:56 AM by StashingAway »

HPstache

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #1299 on: July 07, 2022, 12:41:10 PM »
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?

You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.

If I've said they're not worth taking, I apologize. That's not the argument I was trying to make. I'm just tired of people saying it would've been worse without the vaccine to people who were sick for multiple weeks. Never in my life can I remember that being said for any other illness that has a vaccine.

I actually agree with you on this... it seems like everyone who is vaccinated ends their caught covid story by saying they are so glad they had the vaccine because it would/could have been so much worse.  It's probably some sort of fallacy that I don't feel like looking up
« Last Edit: July 07, 2022, 12:48:01 PM by v8rx7guy »