Not over yet for me, although I wish it was. I'm in CO and as of today we had 1 open ICU bed in the entire state. The main hospital I practice at shut down elective cases today , the other 2 I work at have been shut down for months. Every time I'm on call I get called on covid patients with perforated GI tract, or needing chest tubes. No normal as of yet.You are saying there is exactly one ICU bed open in the entire state of Colorado today? Any way to substantiate that?
If you are still holding back from a pre-pandemic activity, do you have some type of metric that will make it okay for you again?
So here is what I don't understand, for those of you saying you are vaccinated but still unwilling to go to parties or restaurants, what is it you are afraid of? Is it taking COVID to someone you love that is vulnerable or is it getting COVID?
So here is what I don't understand, for those of you saying you are vaccinated but still unwilling to go to parties or restaurants, what is it you are afraid of? Is it taking COVID to someone you love that is vulnerable or is it getting COVID?For me it's a little of both. And it's a risk/reward thing.
I have a parent that is nearly 80 and not in great health. Vaccinated, but given that the breakthrough cases that have been fatal have been almost entirely in that demographic, well, I want to do what I can to protect them.
Then there's me. I have some comorbidities myself. I was also part of a clinical trial for one of the vaccines that hasn't been approved in the US yet. People in this trial haven't gotten boosters yet (supposedly coming in the next month), though I definitely have been double-vaccinated at this point. So overall, I don't know exactly how I would fare. I'd probably be alright, assuming it works like the other vaccines, but the data is limited compared to Pfizer and such.
Finally, there's the risk/reward portion of the equation. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything I really care that much about. Sure, it would be nice to eat in a restaurant, but if someone told me I never could again, I'd be slightly disappointed but that's about it. Same with bars. I hadn't been to a concert or live sporting event in a couple of years before this all started, so that hasn't changed much for me. Wearing a mask to grocery shop and stuff doesn't bother me at all. It's just one more step, like remembering to bring my reusable bags. I only went to the movies like once or twice a year. I sort of miss bowling, but not enough to worry about it. I do miss not feeling like I'm going to have a panic attack if I get stuck in a crowd, like standing in a too-close line at an amusement park, but my choosing to move on won't change that feeling. As for parties, well, I hate them so I might even consider the built-in excuse a slight positive.
So, the reward for me going "back to normal" is near zero, while the risk is that I lose a parent or get sick myself with unknown outcome.
So here is what I don't understand, for those of you saying you are vaccinated but still unwilling to go to parties or restaurants, what is it you are afraid of? Is it taking COVID to someone you love that is vulnerable or is it getting COVID?
I resumed full normal activities in early summer 2020, but continued to wear a mask as required by law in Oregon. As of a few weeks ago, I am no longer wearing a mask at all, in indoor settings (again, this is illegal). Compliance for indoor mask wearing is somewhere around 50%-95% depending on the store. Some places, like the gym, certain sporting good stores, local bars, have compliance closer to 10% or 20%. COVID is over and has been over since vaccines were widely available, and I'm done pretending otherwise by following along with Oregon's poorly justified COVID mandates.
So here is what I don't understand, for those of you saying you are vaccinated but still unwilling to go to parties or restaurants, what is it you are afraid of?
At what point do we start living our lives again?
So here is what I don't understand, for those of you saying you are vaccinated but still unwilling to go to parties or restaurants, what is it you are afraid of?
This is a statement pretending to be a question. This statement pretending to be a question is becoming very common, and it is getting burdensome.QuoteAt what point do we start living our lives again?
I haven't stopped living my life for a second. Just like before, I live my life with the understanding that while an action of one person may be inconsequential, inconsequential actions of individuals repeated million times have massive consequences.
I resumed full normal activities in early summer 2020, but continued to wear a mask as required by law in Oregon. As of a few weeks ago, I am no longer wearing a mask at all, in indoor settings (again, this is illegal). Compliance for indoor mask wearing is somewhere around 50%-95% depending on the store. Some places, like the gym, certain sporting good stores, local bars, have compliance closer to 10% or 20%. COVID is over and has been over since vaccines were widely available, and I'm done pretending otherwise by following along with Oregon's poorly justified COVID mandates.
I dare you to say "Covid is over" to the families of the approximately 7500 people who died of Covid in the US in the last week alone, never mind around the world. I'm sure they would appreciate knowing that once they are done burying their dead.
So here is what I don't understand, for those of you saying you are vaccinated but still unwilling to go to parties or restaurants, what is it you are afraid of? Is it taking COVID to someone you love that is vulnerable or is it getting COVID?
Fair question. For us, we have children too young to be vaccinated. One child in their daycare class just tested positive, so in addition to the small risk that children have of serious cases, that means 10 days of no daycare for all the parents in the class.
Back to doing everything without thinking about who may or may not be vaccinated. Wearing a mask only where required / enforced.
I dare you to say "Covid is over" to the families of the approximately 7500 people who died of Covid in the US in the last week alone, never mind around the world. I'm sure they would appreciate knowing that once they are done burying their dead.
I am happy to! Maybe some of them will read this message.
I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
"Normal" doesn't mean "good". Normal in rich world terms is people leading unhealthy lives, eating crap and being obese and trashing the planet through long-distance travel. "Getting back to normal" means getting back to something that is undeniably unsustainable. I don't want us to get back to that "normal". We all need to choose to live local, healthy lives, staying within reasonable geographic limits and having most of our close contacts with our nearest and dearest.I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
"Normal" doesn't mean "good". Normal in rich world terms is people leading unhealthy lives, eating crap and being obese and trashing the planet through long-distance travel. "Getting back to normal" means getting back to something that is undeniably unsustainable. I don't want us to get back to that "normal". We all need to choose to live local, healthy lives, staying within reasonable geographic limits and having most of our close contacts with our nearest and dearest.I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
QuoteThis is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
If it start raining stones tomorrow, and periodic stone rains become a part of life for the foreseeable future, would you insist that we all have to live our lives exactly as before?
When conditions of the outside world that are beyond our control change, it is only logical to change our lives in response. This whole thread hinges on the assumption that we *must* start living exactly as we did before Covid. I don't see any basis for that assumption. Things changed. There is no going back. There will be no living life as before even if you try, because burying 1,000+ Americans every day is decidedly not as before, and not being able to get medical care in overrun hospitals is decidedly not as before.
Now, how we change our lives, given that there is cost to both action and inaction is a conversation worth having. But this thread didn't start with this question.
Now, "back to normal" crowd throws this accusation, concealed as a question, that actions of people who do not "go back to normal" are guided by fear.
I's argue that your actions are guided by fear. You know that there is no going back. You are afraid of it. You cope with it by denying this reality.
Again, even if you suppress your empathy for dying and their families... If you, perfectly unafraid of Covid, need urgent care, chances are that you won't get it. This is already not as before. This is already not normal. Let it sink. "As before" is not happening. There will be no "normal", at lest for a while, even if we all stop wearing masks and start congregating in indoor spaces - and especially if we do that. Sorry to be a bearer of bad news.
Let me make this very real and personal for you. I don't know if you have kids, but I have two. My youngest was 7 when the pandemic hit. We're almost two years into this thing by now. That's 1/4 of her life, but realistically, about 1/2 of life as she remembers/is aware. The lock downs were not without cost to her. She was always bubbly and outgoing, but about a year into the pandemic she became sullen and depressed. We had legitimate mental health concerns as she started developing some ticks and unhealthy behavior. The mental health system was already overloaded so we couldn't get an appointment with a professional. So we muddled through the best we could. We decided to start relaxing after the vaccines came out -- we were mostly concerned about protecting my vulnerable parents, and they got vaxxed and the vaccine is highly effective. That was April, and since then my daughter has improved tremendously as she's been able to socialize with other kids and be more active. But I will agree with you on this: I think she will always be affected by the pandemic even as she gets back to normal.
ETA: All I'm asking for is a little empathy and not a blanket bashing of "back to normal" as uncaring or brash. Like everyone, we're just trying to balance the costs and benefits (protecting elderly parents vs. mental health of the kids), and there are no clear or perfect answers.
Let me make this very real and personal for you. I don't know if you have kids, but I have two. My youngest was 7 when the pandemic hit. We're almost two years into this thing by now. That's 1/4 of her life, but realistically, about 1/2 of life as she remembers/is aware. The lock downs were not without cost to her. She was always bubbly and outgoing, but about a year into the pandemic she became sullen and depressed. We had legitimate mental health concerns as she started developing some ticks and unhealthy behavior. The mental health system was already overloaded so we couldn't get an appointment with a professional. So we muddled through the best we could. We decided to start relaxing after the vaccines came out -- we were mostly concerned about protecting my vulnerable parents, and they got vaxxed and the vaccine is highly effective. That was April, and since then my daughter has improved tremendously as she's been able to socialize with other kids and be more active. But I will agree with you on this: I think she will always be affected by the pandemic even as she gets back to normal.
Now, let me use your own words: "This is not the first pandemic the world has ever seen, nor will it be the last. Lots of people have died, included people I knew, and it's tragic". Now let me rewrite it like this" "This is not the first pandemic the world has ever seen, nor will it be the last. Lots of children had mental health issues, included people I knew, and it's tragic".
Why can death be written off as "it's tragic, but", but (very real and serious) problems less severe than death cannot?
Again, I do acknowledge that both action and inaction has costs. Which is why I'm happy to have a discussion of *how* the life needs to change to minimize all suffering, including that of children deprived of social contact. But I see no reason to decide it is a foregone conclusion that no further changes are necessary.
I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
Going back to a sense of normalcy doesn't mean no further changes. Not sure why you would jump to that conclusion or think that's what I'm arguing for. Like with influenza, I expect seasonal CV19 shots for the foreseeable future. And periodic mask mandates if/when hot spots emerge. But these are very low cost, high benefit action, and life can largely return to normal even with these.
ETA: All I'm asking for is a little empathy and not a blanket bashing of "back to normal" as uncaring or brash. Like everyone, we're just trying to balance the costs and benefits (protecting elderly parents vs. mental health of the kids), and there are no clear or perfect answers.
Since it was added later, I'll respond separately.
Does maintaining your child's mental health require you to not wear a mask in a store, or dining in an indoor restaurant during a time of high transmission rates?
If not, you do not fit my definition of the "back to normal" crowd. You seem to be trying to solve the same, and very difficult, equation as I do, using the same inputs. We clearly cannot live in a lockdown forever, but there is a happy (or least sad) position between the normal circa 2019 and maximum lockdown. In my book, you are not going back to normal, you are going forward to a new normal (if it makes sense).
If maintaining your child's mental health does require you to not wear a mask in a store, then I'm really confused.
I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
Three hospitals in my state (including the one closest to my house) have received emergency temporary medical staff from FEMA to help with over-capacity admissions. Nearly all hospitals statewide are at capacity 2 weeks before Christmas. Most health care systems are once again cancelling non-emergency procedures. Less than 60% of the state population is fully vaccinated. There are no mask or other mandates, and schools are fully open. My niece and nephew have spent weeks off of school due to quarantine from direct exposures to infected classmates.
I'll consider it "back to normal" when I don't have to worry about whether I'll be able to get medical care for an emergency and when my niece, nephew, and friends' kids can get more than a month in school without COVID interruptions.
I'll also point out that the idea of telling grieving families that the pandemic was over - which is pure cruelty - was pretty well received in this thread.
Masks are a minor inconvenience, we don't mind wearing them. Nor do we need to dine in at restaurants for mental health. However, to a certain extent these things are connected to other restrictions, like school going virtual, social events being canceled, etc. As you say, we cannot lockdown forever. So my question remains: what's the criteria for increased normalcy? Are we going to lockdown for every new variant, or do we accept that our collective immune system is no longer naive and the threat much lower than in March 2020.
I'm gonna make another broad swipe, and likely strike someone I did not intended to offend again - but I have a strong sense that people are searching for a license to do what they are already doing, dropping all precautions (maybe except vax), but without being reminded that their actions have negative consequences. This is what thread looks to me as, a search for validation.
Standing behind him as the door closes, Dr. Biersack says this hospital is really seeing two kinds of COVID right now. One kind is not as common, or severe. That’s the COVID in fully-vaccinated patients. Then there’s the kind that is really swamping this hospital, and every other hospital in the state: that’s COVID in unvaccinated patients.
He says the difference is stark.
“COVID in unvaccinated patients is relentless, it is fast, it is dramatic,” Dr. Biersack says. “Patients go from requiring just a few liters of oxygen to requiring intubation and being placed on a ventilator in a very short time frame. And it’s scary.”
“Is this one of those patients?” I ask.
“Yeah,” he says. “This is a circumstance where someone pretty rapidly deteriorated. Someone who was comfortable just a couple days ago when I saw her.”
Now, the patient is on a ventilator.
This virus still has the ability to surprise, even for those who’ve seen it most.
Around a corner down the hallway, we run into Kelly Kelm, a respiratory therapist. She looks very tired. The influx, she says, has been the worst she’s seen.
“This surge has been a lot of younger people,” she says, “a lot of people my age, a lot of you know, your 40s and your 50 year olds, and your ... younger moms or dads and brothers and sisters that just still have so much life left to give.”
When children also have treatments. As of now most treatments are only approved for adults.I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
When children also have treatments. As of now most treatments are only approved for adults.I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
Part of the "new normal" is going to be reduced life expectancy.When children also have treatments. As of now most treatments are only approved for adults.I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
But what about the immunocompromised? And those who can't receive the vaccine after that?
When children also have treatments. As of now most treatments are only approved for adults.I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
But what about the immunocompromised? And those who can't receive the vaccine after that?
I cannot believe that we're still having this conversation after 21 months.
If it start raining stones tomorrow, and periodic stone rains become a part of life for the foreseeable future, would you insist that we all have to live our lives exactly as before?
If it start raining stones tomorrow, and periodic stone rains become a part of life for the foreseeable future, would you insist that we all have to live our lives exactly as before?
I'll bite.
Let's say it did start raining stones from the sky, with no end in sight. Walking outside unprotected could be a death sentence (or, worse from the perspective of the health care system, give you a traumatic brain injury that requires weeks of intensive care in a hospital). So at the beginning of this stone rain situation, anyone with half a brain would hunker down indoors as much as possible. You'd hear news stories every day about essential workers who got wiped out by a falling stone during their daily commute. Very tragic and scary! Of course the rest of us have a duty to minimize our exposure so that those who have less of a choice about going outside can still have access to the best care.
At the same time, our scientists and engineers put their heads together to see if there's anything we could do to mitigate the situation. After about a year of these stone rains they perfect a "rockbrella," an inexpensive and effective personal protective device. It's transparent and quietly flies above you as you move about the outdoors. You can barely even tell it's there. It effectively stops most of the rocks that may fall on you. Some will occasionally break through, but even those that do will rarely do more damage than giving you a bump on the head. Walking outside with a rockbrella is still a bit more risky than walking unprotected was before, but not significantly so: any given walk with a rockbrella results in something like a one-in-a-million chance of getting a breakthrough stone that requires medical attention.
Now, despite how great the rockbrella is, some people just don't want to use it. The people at their church have told them that the stones falling from the sky are God's will, or the talking heads on TV have convinced them that the rockbrella is a sinister government tracking device. Many of these folks have convinced themselves that the real way to protect yourself is to wear a big sombrero covered in horseshoes. Spoiler alert: the sombreros do nothing. Two years after the stone rains started, the hospitals are as full as ever because a third of the population refuses to protect themselves.
In this situation would I "insist that we all have to live our lives exactly as before?" Of course not. Everyone has to do their own risk analysis, and if people want to go outside less often than before that's fine. What I would say is that people who want to go outside as much as they did before are reasonable to do so as long as they take their rockbrella along. I would also say that it's inappropriate to encourage rockbrella users to keep doing their jogging on a treadmill indoors like they had to do at the beginning of the stone rains. Yes, the hospitals are still full, and jogging outdoors with a rockbrella is not without risk, but the rockbrella joggers are making a negligible contribution to the problem. They have done their part. It's the sombrero people who need to change, and I have no earthly idea how to convince them to do that at this point, but convincing them is the only thing that can really move the needle anymore.
I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
But what about the immunocompromised? And those who can't receive the vaccine after that?
The immunocompromised are always at risk of Everything. If you get Vaxxed or not, they should be careful since all the other diseases are still out there. RSV, whatever the flu gives us, various stomach bugs, infected cuts.
That is what the monoclonal antibodies were developed for. We are moving forward but it would be foolish to ignore that not everyone can get these treatments.When children also have treatments. As of now most treatments are only approved for adults.I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
But what about the immunocompromised? And those who can't receive the vaccine after that?
I'll go back to a "new normal" once my kids (1.5/4.5) are eligible to be vaccinated. And I personally consider it shit that so many in this thread have claimed COVID is over & vaccines widely available when that's not the case for the under 5. If only everyone took it seriously from the start...
My responses depend one three main factors:
- the transmission rate in my location, per the CDC (since I'm in the US)
- the current state of hospitals in my location
- the vaccination status of people I may encounter
I will mask in public if I'm in a high transmission place since I don't want to be responsible for spreading the virus in my community. While my locale does still have a mask mandate, I would still follow CDC advice on masking per transmission rate even without such a mandate.
I also consider whether the local hospitals have capacity. Right now where I live they are near capacity. As a result I'm much more cautious-- I do not feel comfortable knowingly spending time with anyone who is unvaxxed.
This is mostly an aside: A loved one was recently hospitalized in Michigan due to a heart condition, right when they were in the news for hospitals being over capacity. I think her condition was left to worsen longer than it would have otherwise had the medical staff not been so overburdened by C19 patients. To me, this underscores the importance of adjusting masking and gathering behavior depending on the particular circumstances of the place/time.
If hospitals are at or nearing capacity, I limit the time, duration, and number of people I spend time near indoors. So for example, I was invited to a party last night at which proof of vaccination was required but eating and drinking would mean people were unmasked. I did not attend feeling there was too much risk of spreading the virus in those circumstances. But I did feel comfortable having one vaxxed and boosted friend over the day before for a social activity, unmasked.
But when the hospitals start to have more capacity (likely within no more than 2 months, based on how covid waves tend to go), I'll be more willing to do certain things. And if transmission moves to low, I'll do even more.
If it start raining stones tomorrow, and periodic stone rains become a part of life for the foreseeable future, would you insist that we all have to live our lives exactly as before?
I'll bite.
Let's say it did start raining stones from the sky, with no end in sight. Walking outside unprotected could be a death sentence (or, worse from the perspective of the health care system, give you a traumatic brain injury that requires weeks of intensive care in a hospital). So at the beginning of this stone rain situation, anyone with half a brain would hunker down indoors as much as possible. You'd hear news stories every day about essential workers who got wiped out by a falling stone during their daily commute. Very tragic and scary! Of course the rest of us have a duty to minimize our exposure so that those who have less of a choice about going outside can still have access to the best care.
At the same time, our scientists and engineers put their heads together to see if there's anything we could do to mitigate the situation. After about a year of these stone rains they perfect a "rockbrella," an inexpensive and effective personal protective device. It's transparent and quietly flies above you as you move about the outdoors. You can barely even tell it's there. It effectively stops most of the rocks that may fall on you. Some will occasionally break through, but even those that do will rarely do more damage than giving you a bump on the head. Walking outside with a rockbrella is still a bit more risky than walking unprotected was before, but not significantly so: any given walk with a rockbrella results in something like a one-in-a-million chance of getting a breakthrough stone that requires medical attention.
Now, despite how great the rockbrella is, some people just don't want to use it. The people at their church have told them that the stones falling from the sky are God's will, or the talking heads on TV have convinced them that the rockbrella is a sinister government tracking device. Many of these folks have convinced themselves that the real way to protect yourself is to wear a big sombrero covered in horseshoes. Spoiler alert: the sombreros do nothing. Two years after the stone rains started, the hospitals are as full as ever because a third of the population refuses to protect themselves.
In this situation would I "insist that we all have to live our lives exactly as before?" Of course not. Everyone has to do their own risk analysis, and if people want to go outside less often than before that's fine. What I would say is that people who want to go outside as much as they did before are reasonable to do so as long as they take their rockbrella along. I would also say that it's inappropriate to encourage rockbrella users to keep doing their jogging on a treadmill indoors like they had to do at the beginning of the stone rains. Yes, the hospitals are still full, and jogging outdoors with a rockbrella is not without risk, but the rockbrella joggers are making a negligible contribution to the problem. They have done their part. It's the sombrero people who need to change, and I have no earthly idea how to convince them to do that at this point, but convincing them is the only thing that can really move the needle anymore.
There was also a time, prior to the rockbrella invention & rollout, where individuals tried to hold thin fabric tarps above their heads to try to protect themselves from the raining rocks (they had to go to the grocery store after all). The scientists early on told tarp holders that their tarps would not work because it was too difficult to fully shield oneself from the falling rocks. However, later on it was discovered if everyone grabbed a corner of a large fabric tarp as they moved about outdoors, they were able to pretty effectively protect themselves from the falling rocks as a group (though everyone knew it wasn't perfect). Fast forward to the future, what frustrates many rockbrella owners is that, for whatever reason, people still insist on the carrying of the tarps as a group in addition to their rockbrellas even though the majority of the population is perfectly safe under their own rockbrellas. Sure, it's really just a slight annoyance to carry a corner of the tarp... but why are we still doing it? To protect those who insist on wearing horseshoe sombreros and not participating in the holding of the tarp rather than acquiring a free rockbrella? Do we not believe the rockbrella works any more?
If it start raining stones tomorrow, and periodic stone rains become a part of life for the foreseeable future, would you insist that we all have to live our lives exactly as before?
I'll bite.
Let's say it did start raining stones from the sky, with no end in sight. Walking outside unprotected could be a death sentence (or, worse from the perspective of the health care system, give you a traumatic brain injury that requires weeks of intensive care in a hospital). So at the beginning of this stone rain situation, anyone with half a brain would hunker down indoors as much as possible. You'd hear news stories every day about essential workers who got wiped out by a falling stone during their daily commute. Very tragic and scary! Of course the rest of us have a duty to minimize our exposure so that those who have less of a choice about going outside can still have access to the best care.
At the same time, our scientists and engineers put their heads together to see if there's anything we could do to mitigate the situation. After about a year of these stone rains they perfect a "rockbrella," an inexpensive and effective personal protective device. It's transparent and quietly flies above you as you move about the outdoors. You can barely even tell it's there. It effectively stops most of the rocks that may fall on you. Some will occasionally break through, but even those that do will rarely do more damage than giving you a bump on the head. Walking outside with a rockbrella is still a bit more risky than walking unprotected was before, but not significantly so: any given walk with a rockbrella results in something like a one-in-a-million chance of getting a breakthrough stone that requires medical attention.
Now, despite how great the rockbrella is, some people just don't want to use it. The people at their church have told them that the stones falling from the sky are God's will, or the talking heads on TV have convinced them that the rockbrella is a sinister government tracking device. Many of these folks have convinced themselves that the real way to protect yourself is to wear a big sombrero covered in horseshoes. Spoiler alert: the sombreros do nothing. Two years after the stone rains started, the hospitals are as full as ever because a third of the population refuses to protect themselves.
In this situation would I "insist that we all have to live our lives exactly as before?" Of course not. Everyone has to do their own risk analysis, and if people want to go outside less often than before that's fine. What I would say is that people who want to go outside as much as they did before are reasonable to do so as long as they take their rockbrella along. I would also say that it's inappropriate to encourage rockbrella users to keep doing their jogging on a treadmill indoors like they had to do at the beginning of the stone rains. Yes, the hospitals are still full, and jogging outdoors with a rockbrella is not without risk, but the rockbrella joggers are making a negligible contribution to the problem. They have done their part. It's the sombrero people who need to change, and I have no earthly idea how to convince them to do that at this point, but convincing them is the only thing that can really move the needle anymore.
There was also a time, prior to the rockbrella invention & rollout, where individuals tried to hold thin fabric tarps above their heads to try to protect themselves from the raining rocks (they had to go to the grocery store after all). The scientists early on told tarp holders that their tarps would not work because it was too difficult to fully shield oneself from the falling rocks. However, later on it was discovered if everyone grabbed a corner of a large fabric tarp as they moved about outdoors, they were able to pretty effectively protect themselves from the falling rocks as a group (though everyone knew it wasn't perfect). Fast forward to the future, what frustrates many rockbrella owners is that, for whatever reason, people still insist on the carrying of the tarps as a group in addition to their rockbrellas even though the majority of the population is perfectly safe under their own rockbrellas. Sure, it's really just a slight annoyance to carry a corner of the tarp... but why are we still doing it? To protect those who insist on wearing horseshoe sombreros and not participating in the holding of the tarp rather than acquiring a free rockbrella? Do we not believe the rockbrella works any more?
Meanwhile the Consumer Product Safety Commission is taking their sweet time doing an exhaustive study on the safety of rockbrella use by children before they approve its use in younger age groups. Frazzled parents are still keeping their kids inside when possible and vigilantly using tarps when outdoor movements are absolutely necessary, wondering how the hell it takes so long to collect enough data to show that rockbrellas are more likely than not to be safer for kids than the status quo.
I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
What do you mean by “normal”? Because really, I’ve been living my life for the last two years - not going to the mall hasn’t been some terrible sacrifice.
Kids are in school. Restaurants are open. There’s always takeout. We see friends and family.
What’s missing here?
My children are all old enough to have been fully vaccinated, but if I had a 1-4 year old I would be way more worried about the stuff that is actually likely to kill them. Even when my teenagers weren't yet vaccinated I was never particularly worried about COVID because their risk from COVID were still less than from automobile accidents (the #1 killer of adolescents in this country, even during a global pandemic).
I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
What do you mean by “normal”? Because really, I’ve been living my life for the last two years - not going to the mall hasn’t been some terrible sacrifice.
Kids are in school. Restaurants are open. There’s always takeout. We see friends and family.
What’s missing here?
Half of the posters in this thread* said they haven't/ wont go on an airplane , that seems a little abnormal.
*I didn't actually count
We don’t really fear Covid will kill our child (though we know it could make her fairly sick). We worry she will inadvertently kill someone else, and quite possibly someone we are related to.
The man who had a heart attack, entirely unrelated to any falling rocks, and can't get timely care because the hospitals are full of rock-related concussions, would have benefitted from more tarp holders and more people continuing to jog on their treadmills. Perhaps, for many people, they feel they are holding tarps to benefit him, and to help their neighbor who is unable to have a rockbrella at all, or who has a situation where her rockbrella is far more likely to fail and would therefore continue to benefit from the group's tarp.
My children are all old enough to have been fully vaccinated, but if I had a 1-4 year old I would be way more worried about the stuff that is actually likely to kill them. Even when my teenagers weren't yet vaccinated I was never particularly worried about COVID because their risk from COVID were still less than from automobile accidents (the #1 killer of adolescents in this country, even during a global pandemic).
I hear this a lot, but what many don’t seem to acknowledge is that a toddler contracting COVID is a *massive* disruption for a whole bunch of people. At least in our area it causes a forced shut-down of daycare, so instantly you’ve kind of upset the apple cart for about ten sets of parents. And of course the parents of the infected child are then advised to quarantine for having “close contact” (not to mention they are now caring for their infected child).
We don’t really fear Covid will kill our child (though we know it could make her fairly sick). We worry she will inadvertently kill someone else, and quite possibly someone we are related to.
We worried about that too, until everyone we knew was fully vaccinated. Am I supposed to worry about this thing for the rest of time?
Or perhaps I should say: I take my pandemic advice from the only political party to which I am still a member: the SNP which never required small children to wear masks in school (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/us/students-masks-classrooms-britain.html), because that was for the benefit of the adults, not the children. So once the adults had access to vaccines I am 100% unwilling to put any more burden on the children.
Or perhaps I should say: I take my pandemic advice from the only political party to which I am still a member: the SNP which never required small children to wear masks in school (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/us/students-masks-classrooms-britain.html), because that was for the benefit of the adults, not the children. So once the adults had access to vaccines I am 100% unwilling to put any more burden on the children.
Meh - kids her age all wear masks now in our community, and they seem surprisingly unbothered by it. For them it’s just their normal. I think the advice for small children not to wear masks in school was primarily based on the alpha variant which (IIRC) didn’t kill or hospitalize a single young child with a normal immune system in the first six months of the pandemic. Delta upended that as young children started winding up in the ICU and some ever died. We are still largely waiting data to find out if Omicron is more/less dangerous to small humans, but right now in my community the major variant remains delta, and is the “problem in front of us” for the immediate future.
Or perhaps I should say: I take my pandemic advice from the only political party to which I am still a member: the SNP which never required small children to wear masks in school (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/us/students-masks-classrooms-britain.html), because that was for the benefit of the adults, not the children. So once the adults had access to vaccines I am 100% unwilling to put any more burden on the children.
Meh - kids her age all wear masks now in our community, and they seem surprisingly unbothered by it. For them it’s just their normal. I think the advice for small children not to wear masks in school was primarily based on the alpha variant which (IIRC) didn’t kill or hospitalize a single young child with a normal immune system in the first six months of the pandemic. Delta upended that as young children started winding up in the ICU and some ever died. We are still largely waiting data to find out if Omicron is more/less dangerous to small humans, but right now in my community the major variant remains delta, and is the “problem in front of us” for the immediate future.
Are you saying that peer pressure in your community is causing children five and under to wear masks in spite of the fact that the WHO says not to do that (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-children-and-masks-related-to-covid-19)? Because to me that sounds like the politically motivated dismissal of experts (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/05/how-we-killed-expertise-215531/) that the left howls about when the right does it.
The man who had a heart attack, entirely unrelated to any falling rocks, and can't get timely care because the hospitals are full of rock-related concussions, would have benefitted from more tarp holders and more people continuing to jog on their treadmills. Perhaps, for many people, they feel they are holding tarps to benefit him, and to help their neighbor who is unable to have a rockbrella at all, or who has a situation where her rockbrella is far more likely to fail and would therefore continue to benefit from the group's tarp.
We have data showing that the sombrero people are 35-40 times more likely to use hospital resources than the rockbrella joggers (https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/vaccination-outcomes.aspx). Sure, every little bit helps keep ICU utilization at a sustainable level, but does it really make sense to keep advising indoor jogging at this point, when 40 people doing that makes just as much difference as one person getting rid of their ridiculous sombrero? [/b]Focus on the actions that will make a significant difference. Indoor jogging is not it! I'll keep holding my corner of the tarp whenever it's halfway convenient to do so, but I'm just so tired of being told that I have a duty to put more effort into protecting the sombrero people than they're willing to put into protecting themselves.
My children are all old enough to have been fully vaccinated, but if I had a 1-4 year old I would be way more worried about the stuff that is actually likely to kill them. Even when my teenagers weren't yet vaccinated I was never particularly worried about COVID because their risk from COVID were still less than from automobile accidents (the #1 killer of adolescents in this country, even during a global pandemic).
I hear this a lot, but what many don’t seem to acknowledge is that a toddler contracting COVID is a *massive* disruption for a whole bunch of people. At least in our area it causes a forced shut-down of daycare, so instantly you’ve kind of upset the apple cart for about ten sets of parents. And of course the parents of the infected child are then advised to quarantine for having “close contact” (not to mention they are now caring for their infected child).
This is an excellent point. In the Before Times it was considered okay to send your kid to school when someone in your house (perhaps even the kid themselves) had minor cold symptoms. Now it is very much not. If your kid gets the sniffles nobody's going to school for at least a week, and one of the parents had better be able to take time off work. Massive disruption that would seem like an obvious overreaction if everyone was vaccinated. I'd very much like to see us settle into a pattern of mask-wearing when we have cold symptoms, but otherwise going about our lives.
Meh - kids her age all wear masks now in our community, and they seem surprisingly unbothered by it. For them it’s just their normal. I think the advice for small children not to wear masks in school was primarily based on the alpha variant which (IIRC) didn’t kill or hospitalize a single young child with a normal immune system in the first six months of the pandemic. Delta upended that as young children started winding up in the ICU and some ever died. We are still largely waiting data to find out if Omicron is more/less dangerous to small humans, but right now in my community the major variant remains delta, and is the “problem in front of us” for the immediate future.
Or perhaps I should say: I take my pandemic advice from the only political party to which I am still a member: the SNP which never required small children to wear masks in school (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/us/students-masks-classrooms-britain.html), because that was for the benefit of the adults, not the children. So once the adults had access to vaccines I am 100% unwilling to put any more burden on the children.
Meh - kids her age all wear masks now in our community, and they seem surprisingly unbothered by it. For them it’s just their normal. I think the advice for small children not to wear masks in school was primarily based on the alpha variant which (IIRC) didn’t kill or hospitalize a single young child with a normal immune system in the first six months of the pandemic. Delta upended that as young children started winding up in the ICU and some ever died. We are still largely waiting data to find out if Omicron is more/less dangerous to small humans, but right now in my community the major variant remains delta, and is the “problem in front of us” for the immediate future.
Are you saying that peer pressure in your community is causing children five and under to wear masks in spite of the fact that the WHO says not to do that (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-children-and-masks-related-to-covid-19)? Because to me that sounds like the politically motivated dismissal of experts (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/05/how-we-killed-expertise-215531/) that the left howls about when the right does it.
No, that’s not what I’m saying at all.
Meh - kids her age all wear masks now in our community, and they seem surprisingly unbothered by it. For them it’s just their normal. I think the advice for small children not to wear masks in school was primarily based on the alpha variant which (IIRC) didn’t kill or hospitalize a single young child with a normal immune system in the first six months of the pandemic. Delta upended that as young children started winding up in the ICU and some ever died. We are still largely waiting data to find out if Omicron is more/less dangerous to small humans, but right now in my community the major variant remains delta, and is the “problem in front of us” for the immediate future.
We live in Idaho, which is generally not known for taking COVID precautions seriously. Dumb, but it offers and interesting data point. State population is a little under 2M. Let's look at the under 18 years of age stats on the statewide dashboard (https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/idaho.division.of.public.health/viz/DPHIdahoCOVID-19Dashboard/Home): Deaths - 1, hospitalizations - 278. That's far fewer pediatric deaths from COVID-19 in ~2 years than a single year of automobile crashes. In 2020 Idaho had more kids die from the flu than COVID-19.
I'm just not worried about our kids getting seriously ill from COVID-19. I worry more about their safety walking to school and crossing streets. They are scheduled for the vaccine because I see very little downside, and I want to be sure their immune system is "trained" for it before they get to adulthood.
The official guidance for mask wearing from the US-CDC is pretty clear:Or perhaps I should say: I take my pandemic advice from the only political party to which I am still a member: the SNP which never required small children to wear masks in school (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/us/students-masks-classrooms-britain.html), because that was for the benefit of the adults, not the children. So once the adults had access to vaccines I am 100% unwilling to put any more burden on the children.
Meh - kids her age all wear masks now in our community, and they seem surprisingly unbothered by it. For them it’s just their normal. I think the advice for small children not to wear masks in school was primarily based on the alpha variant which (IIRC) didn’t kill or hospitalize a single young child with a normal immune system in the first six months of the pandemic. Delta upended that as young children started winding up in the ICU and some ever died. We are still largely waiting data to find out if Omicron is more/less dangerous to small humans, but right now in my community the major variant remains delta, and is the “problem in front of us” for the immediate future.
Are you saying that peer pressure in your community is causing children five and under to wear masks in spite of the fact that the WHO says not to do that (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-children-and-masks-related-to-covid-19)? Because to me that sounds like the politically motivated dismissal of experts (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/05/how-we-killed-expertise-215531/) that the left howls about when the right does it.
No, that’s not what I’m saying at all.
Good to hear! Because it is absolutely happening in my community.
Along those lines the Tory Party, Labour Party, and SNP can't agree on anything. But they do agree that children under 12 don't need to wear a mask in public. You are welcome to live your life however you want within the bounds of the law, I'm only answering the question posed in the thread title.
If you’ve been fully vaccinated:
You can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic.
To reduce the risk of being infected with the Delta variant and possibly spreading it to others, wear a mask indoors in public if you are in an area of substantial or high transmission.
If you are not fully vaccinated and aged 2 or older, you should wear a mask in indoor public places.
The official guidance for mask wearing from the US-CDC is pretty clear:QuoteIf you’ve been fully vaccinated:
You can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic.
To reduce the risk of being infected with the Delta variant and possibly spreading it to others, wear a mask indoors in public if you are in an area of substantial or high transmission.
If you are not fully vaccinated and aged 2 or older, you should wear a mask in indoor public places.
We are in an area of substantial transmission. Our kid is unvaccinated.
I’m guessing you missed the earlier discussion upthread.
It has very little to do with preventing very young children from becoming seriously ill with Covid. As you’ve noted, that is exceptionally rare.
Instead, our concern is on two fronts
I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
What do you mean by “normal”? Because really, I’ve been living my life for the last two years - not going to the mall hasn’t been some terrible sacrifice.
Kids are in school. Restaurants are open. There’s always takeout. We see friends and family.
What’s missing here?
Half of the posters in this thread* said they haven't/ wont go on an airplane , that seems a little abnormal.
*I didn't actually count
And also - kids here wear masks on school property, inside and out. It doesn’t seem to bother them. My 5yo grandson can barely remember *not* wearing a mask in public. He forgets to take it off when her comes home. It IS the normal for him.
Do you have proof that small children are truly carriers?
I haven’t seen anything that validates that and my own personal experience is that the parents pass it to their kids and the kids who then test positive DO NOT actually spread it at school even when unmasked.
Not going on an airplane is going to become the new normal in our lifetimes for environmental reasons - here's an article on tourism accounting for 8% of greenhouse gas emissions -I still prefer to mask in crowded indoor public settings because COVID/hospitalization rates are so high here and I'd rather not be part of the transmission chain.
This is what "back to normal" crowd studiously avoids comprehending. The blast radius of our actions is pretty wide, even if we are triple vaccinated and have no immunocomprimised people in our immediate surrounding.
But, as we saw above, fuck grieving families.
Which, again, is not as shocking as it should be. I mean, crazies harassed the grieving parents of Sandy Hook parents for years, and Sandy Hook did not chase them out, nor was Alex Jones forced into well-deserved hiding. We have a damn high tolerance for cruelty in this country, in so many forms and so many ways.
It's pretty widely accepted that COVID-19 is never going away and will keep mutating and circulating. We have effective vaccines, antivirals, and other treatment options. If we don't start going back to normal now, then when? In your opinion what's the criteria? Because "not normal" is not without a toll on human lives.
What do you mean by “normal”? Because really, I’ve been living my life for the last two years - not going to the mall hasn’t been some terrible sacrifice.
Kids are in school. Restaurants are open. There’s always takeout. We see friends and family.
What’s missing here?
Half of the posters in this thread* said they haven't/ wont go on an airplane , that seems a little abnormal.
*I didn't actually count
My two year old also finds it normal to wear his mask indoors. Even in the house. It IS awesome, as, when he had a fever (negative for COVID flu and RSV) the first week we brought our newborn home, he wore his mask whenever the baby was around, and wasn’t coughing directly into the baby’s eyeballs, so we avoided giving the newborn his fever and avoided a hospitalization (fever in newborns is a go directly to hospital do not pass go situation; and when the adults got sick, we also wore masks around the baby). Also, it doubles as a great way to keep his nose warm during winter bike rides. Also also, it means we don’t catch nearly as many colds from daycare. There are still some, but it’s not been as bad. That means less minor misery and fewer unpaid days off work for me.And also - kids here wear masks on school property, inside and out. It doesn’t seem to bother them. My 5yo grandson can barely remember *not* wearing a mask in public. He forgets to take it off when her comes home. It IS the normal for him.
Sounds awesome
Or perhaps I should say: I take my pandemic advice from the only political party to which I am still a member: the SNP which never required small children to wear masks in school (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/us/students-masks-classrooms-britain.html), because that was for the benefit of the adults, not the children. So once the adults had access to vaccines I am 100% unwilling to put any more burden on the children.
Meh - kids her age all wear masks now in our community, and they seem surprisingly unbothered by it. For them it’s just their normal. I think the advice for small children not to wear masks in school was primarily based on the alpha variant which (IIRC) didn’t kill or hospitalize a single young child with a normal immune system in the first six months of the pandemic. Delta upended that as young children started winding up in the ICU and some ever died. We are still largely waiting data to find out if Omicron is more/less dangerous to small humans, but right now in my community the major variant remains delta, and is the “problem in front of us” for the immediate future.
Are you saying that peer pressure in your community is causing children five and under to wear masks in spite of the fact that the WHO says not to do that (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-children-and-masks-related-to-covid-19)? Because to me that sounds like the politically motivated dismissal of experts (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/05/how-we-killed-expertise-215531/) that the left howls about when the right does it.
No, that’s not what I’m saying at all.
Do you have proof that small children are truly carriers?
I haven’t seen anything that validates that and my own personal experience is that the parents pass it to their kids and the kids who then test positive DO NOT actually spread it at school even when unmasked.
Well, it's anecdata, but my daycare had an outbreak that involved 25 people that I know about. 17 kids, 5 teachers (and all but 2 teachers in the school were vaccinated at the time) and 3 vaccinated parents with no outside exposure beyond their kids. There may have been more parents - those are just parents I knew.
A positive case at the daycare:
- Shuts down the classroom, ranging from 7 kids, 3 teachers (infant) to ~20 people (kindergarten). Some classes share a room, like my daughters, so that could shut down two classrooms.
- Which forces parents to either go crazy working from home AND watching kids (which with kids under 5 is not as easy as school aged kids) if permitted by work or take time off. If you have two kids, that extends the time at home, because you can't test the second kid until it's been 10 days from exposure or symptoms (infectious time) + 5 days (time to wait to see if 2nd kid develops it).
- You still get to pay for daycare! Lucky you.
- If there are too many cases like the outbreak above, it can shut down the whole school.
- The kids can spread it to others, included immune compromised people. We've got a 75+ yo cancer survivor with diabetes in our tiny circle...
We worry about our kids getting it *and* the impact to others, health, work disruptions, and otherwise.
For me, I have to stay home from work anytime I or a household member has a symptom. My 1.5 yo is in daycare, so she gets a lot of runny noses. She's been tested and negative a ton of times, but I need to stay out until she gets better/I don't get it.
btw for those who seem to think little kids hate masks...my 19 month started asking to wearing a "mack" around 15 months. She initially did it for just a moment, but it would be longer and longer. We didn't push it on her, but I never refused so she'd start to get used to it and would just closely supervise. She wants to imitate her beloved brother and others.
Do you have proof that small children are truly carriers?
I haven’t seen anything that validates that and my own personal experience is that the parents pass it to their kids and the kids who then test positive DO NOT actually spread it at school even when unmasked.
I am getting my booster shot tomorrow but now I am reading that the current vaccines may not be effective at all against Omicron. Will this just lead to more/different vaccines being put in our arms early next year? This reminds me of some movie, I can't think of which one, maybe it doesn't exist....yet.
all family members of every child in that day care must isolate for 2 weeks, whether they have symptoms or not, whether they're vaccinated or not.
So here is what I don't understand, for those of you saying you are vaccinated but still unwilling to go to parties or restaurants, what is it you are afraid of? Is it taking COVID to someone you love that is vulnerable or is it getting COVID?
My decision not to participate in extra-curriculars is totally tied to my local healthcare system and whether it's keeping pace with the case load or drowning. We're in a state where elective surgeries have been postponed and the national guard has been called in to supplement care, and people in the metro may need to be medivac'd outstate just to find an ICU bed. I have many friends and family members who have kids in school and they are always going to shoulder some risk for that, and I, as a childless person, can help to mitigate some of that risk.
I'm just not certain that if someone I cared about (vax'd or unvax'd) got sick, that they'd have a bed available (based on data available today). So I can take my movie nights at home with my close family rather than at the theater or I can get takeout with friends rather than dining in, etc. It's just tradeoffs, and the calculation becomes less dire to me when our healthcare system isn't completely drowning and our positivity rate is below 5%. I also have some friends in healthcare and understand that this pace isn't sustainable, so the "opting out" is for them as well.
all family members of every child in that day care must isolate for 2 weeks, whether they have symptoms or not, whether they're vaccinated or not.
Seriously?! That has never been within the realm of what has been recommended by the CDC. I guess it's possible that some health departments are being extra-cautious, but I wonder if this is a misunderstanding.
My kids are elementary age and jr high.all family members of every child in that day care must isolate for 2 weeks, whether they have symptoms or not, whether they're vaccinated or not.
Seriously?! That has never been within the realm of what has been recommended by the CDC. I guess it's possible that some health departments are being extra-cautious, but I wonder if this is a misunderstanding.
What is recommended is that everyone who has been exposed isolate. Provided the exposed child is isolated, family members could go about their lives. But that isn't really possible with a child under 5 years old (daycare age). Someone is taking care of them, so they are not isolated. If one parent could isolate with the child, the rest of the family could still go out, but they are probably just assuming that would be difficult to enforce and recommending everyone isolate instead.
A big part of why we were being so cautious is because if any one of us who were vaccinated caught a breakthrough case of covid my unvaccinated child would be considered exposed and would have to isolate and miss school for two weeks. Not fun.
So here is what I don't understand, for those of you saying you are vaccinated but still unwilling to go to parties or restaurants, what is it you are afraid of? Is it taking COVID to someone you love that is vulnerable or is it getting COVID?It just doesn't seem worth the risk to me to go to a party or a restaurant, if it's indoors and unmasked. I went to my company holiday happy hour (outdoors), and I do the neighborhood potluck (outdoors).
all family members of every child in that day care must isolate for 2 weeks, whether they have symptoms or not, whether they're vaccinated or not.
Seriously?! That has never been within the realm of what has been recommended by the CDC. I guess it's possible that some health departments are being extra-cautious, but I wonder if this is a misunderstanding.
The way I see it, generally people fit the following profiles:
Nothing changed (indoors w/o mask, w/o regard to vaccination status): Anti-vaxers/anti-science, many young healthy couples/single people
Rule follower (wear a mask when recommended or required): Parents of older children
Cautious (avoid indoor/unmasked gatherings): Parents of young children, immune compromised
Obviously there's a lot of bleed into categories, but it seems to generally bucket what I see on this thread and in real life. There are cautious people who are doing so out of a sense of "best for everyone" even when they are young and healthy. There are older, immune compromised people for whom nothing changed because they feel why bother we'll all get it, don't believe the science, etc.
Covid vaccines and now boosters are here, treatments for those who get the disease continue to improve, and death rates are falling. The virus isn't going away, and will be with us forever like common cold and flu. The world is open - football stadiums are full of fans, Broadway shows have reopened, etc.
I would take some issue with the 'death rates are falling' clause. Deaths are still unacceptably high, in my opinion, and I think there's a false narrative out there (parroted to me by a relative recently) that people aren't dying of it anymore. ~1300 Americans are still dying daily from COVID, close to half million per year at that rate. Not even remotely comparable to the flu by that metric, which people often compare it to. I do agree that it will be with us forever in some form.
Which activities have you resumed doing and which ones are you not ready for yet, if ever? If you are still holding back from a pre-pandemic activity, do you have some type of metric that will make it okay for you again?
Indoor gatherings with friends? Vaccinated people only? Yes, with vaccinated friends, and families whom we know take prudent precautions.
Working on site? When required. Mostly work from home, from 1200 miles away.
Church? Did go some in the summer, but halted when the Delta surge started really hitting our area. Biggest concern was for our 5-11 kids, and the lack of enforcement of masking. Now that our kids are vaccinated, will look to resume.
Gym? Work out at home. I did go to a class with some friends recently. May start at a climbing gym soon.
Getting on an airplane? I've done this on multiple occasions, with appropriate precautions.
Going maskless in public (retail stores, grocery stores)? Not indoors
Indoor restaurants that aren't busy? Indoor restaurants with someone at every table? Yes, though there is probably a "packing factor" at which I would beg off.
Outdoor stadiums that aren't completely full? Outdoor stadiums at full capacity? Did a low capacity outdoor baseball game. Not interested in a crowded stadium.
Indoor stadiums (theatre, concerts, sporting events) that aren't completely full? Indoor stadiums at full capacity?
Going to a bar? Might consider it if not too crowded. Not a big part of my life before COVID.
Do you participate in some of these activities but then might take a 10 break if you are going to visit someone who you are afraid of passing the virus to?
- It's been interesting to watch the return to work social dynamics. I've seen lots of staff really drag their feet on coming back to the office and insist that working from home is perfectly fine, but then once they're back in the office they're upset that some people are still working from home. Everyone wants to be the last one working in sweatpants, but eventually most people are going to have to summon the courage to don their hard pants again.
Why?
I question this assumption that people will have to return. Many people demonstrated they can successfully do most if not all of their job remotely.
Been in the "back to normal" camp since last March, when vaccines first became widely available. Life is full of risks, and if you look at the actual risk of death for your age and vaccination status, its not much different than plenty of other diseases you never cared about. Its crazy to imagine its been 2 years. If not back to normal now, then when? I was extremely cautious in the winter of 2020, and basically lived like a hermit, knowing vaccines were right around the corner. I feel like I did my duty and am now free to enjoy life again. I accept there is still a very small risk I could have a breakthrough case and die. Its probably along the same lines as dying in any number of other ways. I don't follow CDC guidance anymore because I believe that they don't know what they are doing and/or lie for political purposes.
Once I was fully vaxxed it was back to normal, no looking back.
The flu is a great example, no one wore masks (save for 1918) and the flu was regularly spread around to all sorts of vulnerable people. Lots of people died almost exclusively the very old and very young. The flu has always been pretty dangerous but no one really cared. I never wore a mask with a concern about the flu, it never even cross my mind. Now I realize that 136 deaths a day < 1000 a day. However what has to happen for folks who are continuing to live very different lives due to covid to get back to the one they would be living without it.
5 people whom I knew personally have passed away from Covid, the youngest of whom was in his 20's. 2 of them left young children behind.
I'm 1 degree of separation away from scores more Covid victims (Friends or family of acquaintances of mine.)
Everyone in my family is vaxxed and most are boosted, but I'm still cautious because there's a person in my household currently undergoing chemo. Mask wearing reduces all kinds of germs, so why wouldn't I?
Another poster commented about 1000 people die from Covid every day, which is concerning, but not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Before everyone jumps down my throat. ~7000 Americans die every day. No one gets excited about such things.
We're in an area of high transmission right now, and our risk tolerance is pretty high largely because we've both been working face to face with high density institutional populations throughout the pandemic. When you're exposed all day long to people living in group settings, it feels a little silly to get super anxious about Covid when we're on our own time. We're conscious about spreading anything we might catch to others, but otherwise we don't fret too much. We're double-vaxed and boosted, both because it's good sense and because it's a condition of our employment.The bolded is pretty shocking to me. My sister (and her spouse) had it, fairly early on, but she worked in death investigation and was still working full time with a fair amount of exposure, so that wasn't a suprise. At the moment, 2 of my closest friends and their families have it. They live nowhere near each other (one in California, one in England). Both are vaccinated, but have young kids that are not. My mother-in-law and brother-in-law (who lives with her) had it a few months ago. My best friend's brother (who has long Covid and more than a year after infection has significant symptoms). And I could name at least a dozen other people in my larger social circle without thinking very hard. Plus, people DH has worked with, friends of friends who I've met in passing, etc.
At this point, we're in the "rule followers" category outlined above.
We wear masks in stores because it's part of our local (blue, urban) culture as much as because of particular health concerns.
We both eat in restaurants as a required part of our employment, and occationally on our own time.
We haven't done the gym, church, concerts, or sporting events indoors during the pandemic. Mostly we haven't gone back because we don't miss them much. Mountain biking > Peloton every time.
We're starting to schedule for the spring and summer, and both personal and work travel are starting to look much more normal. When I get on a plane, I will definitely strap on an N95 for my own safety.
Couple more notes:
- We don't know a single person socially who has gotten Covid outside of a couple frontline medical providers right at the start of the pandemic. Since vaccines, zero. Covid feels a little abstract because while we chatter about it socially, nobody actually gets it.
- If I were a parent, I would be absolutely enraged at daycares and schools that seem to use the slightest sniffle to shut the place down and throw parents' lives into chaos. Locally, our private schools sure seem to be a lot more motivated to keep kids in the desks than the public schools, and for those of us who care about educational inequality that should be a problem.
- It's been interesting to watch the return to work social dynamics. I've seen lots of staff really drag their feet on coming back to the office and insist that working from home is perfectly fine, but then once they're back in the office they're upset that some people are still working from home. Everyone wants to be the last one working in sweatpants, but eventually most people are going to have to summon the courage to don their hard pants again.
- Talking to a couple people reasonably high up at Fortune 100-500 companies in retail and medicine (not tech), their feeling is that their WFH policies will remain permissive until the next major economic shock at which point they'll have leverage to restore office normalcy. I know quite a few folks who aren't making major life changes based on WFH policies because they don't believe they'll be permanent.
We don't know a single person socially who has gotten Covid outside of a couple frontline medical providers right at the start of the pandemic. Since vaccines, zero. Covid feels a little abstract because while we chatter about it socially, nobody actually gets it.The bolded is pretty shocking to me.
We don't know a single person socially who has gotten Covid outside of a couple frontline medical providers right at the start of the pandemic. Since vaccines, zero. Covid feels a little abstract because while we chatter about it socially, nobody actually gets it.The bolded is pretty shocking to me.
It's not actually shocking to me, but I live in Portland where we took the pandemic very very seriously. None of my friends or coworkers in my office got it. If you snuck out on a bike ride to see one friend you were looked down on. Your best friend would refuse to see you without wearing a mask and sitting 20 feet apart, even if you lived alone and worked from home and were about to hang yourself. I'm not exaggerating. Perhaps this is why I'm a "rule follower" at this point.
We don't know a single person socially who has gotten Covid outside of a couple frontline medical providers right at the start of the pandemic. Since vaccines, zero. Covid feels a little abstract because while we chatter about it socially, nobody actually gets it.The bolded is pretty shocking to me.
It's not actually shocking to me, but I live in Portland where we took the pandemic very very seriously. None of my friends or coworkers in my office got it. If you snuck out on a bike ride to see one friend you were looked down on. Your best friend would refuse to see you without wearing a mask and sitting 20 feet apart, even if you lived alone and worked from home and were about to hang yourself. I'm not exaggerating. Perhaps this is why I'm a "rule follower" at this point.
Do you not know people who don't live in Portland?
We don't know a single person socially who has gotten Covid outside of a couple frontline medical providers right at the start of the pandemic. Since vaccines, zero. Covid feels a little abstract because while we chatter about it socially, nobody actually gets it.The bolded is pretty shocking to me.
It's not actually shocking to me
I wear a mask in indoor public places as required by law and has become expected by common decency.
I think things get more back to normal when the kids are fully vaccinated. The risk to kids themselves may be low, but the risk that they'll transmit the virus throughout the community is more of a concern.
We don't know a single person socially who has gotten Covid outside of a couple frontline medical providers right at the start of the pandemic. Since vaccines, zero. Covid feels a little abstract because while we chatter about it socially, nobody actually gets it.The bolded is pretty shocking to me.
It's not actually shocking to me, but I live in Portland where we took the pandemic very very seriously. None of my friends or coworkers in my office got it. If you snuck out on a bike ride to see one friend you were looked down on. Your best friend would refuse to see you without wearing a mask and sitting 20 feet apart, even if you lived alone and worked from home and were about to hang yourself. I'm not exaggerating. Perhaps this is why I'm a "rule follower" at this point.
We don't know a single person socially who has gotten Covid outside of a couple frontline medical providers right at the start of the pandemic. Since vaccines, zero. Covid feels a little abstract because while we chatter about it socially, nobody actually gets it.The bolded is pretty shocking to me.
It's not actually shocking to me, but I live in Portland where we took the pandemic very very seriously. None of my friends or coworkers in my office got it. If you snuck out on a bike ride to see one friend you were looked down on. Your best friend would refuse to see you without wearing a mask and sitting 20 feet apart, even if you lived alone and worked from home and were about to hang yourself. I'm not exaggerating. Perhaps this is why I'm a "rule follower" at this point.
I also don't personally know anyone who died of COVID. A friend's mother passed away from cancer, and tested positive for COVID her last week (out of 6) in the hospital.
I think the thing that's clearest to me right now is that the US needs to spend a boatload of money to get the world vaccinated. Delta and Omicron both emerged out of countries with very low vaccination rates (though it's unknown whether Omicron originated in South Africa or was simply discovered there first).
I think the thing that's clearest to me right now is that the US needs to spend a boatload of money to get the world vaccinated. Delta and Omicron both emerged out of countries with very low vaccination rates (though it's unknown whether Omicron originated in South Africa or was simply discovered there first).
It's zoonotic, so unless you're pushing enough vaccine for the vertebrate animals and the human populations I'm not sure it's going to be effective at eliminating viral spread.
I’m just crossing my fingers that Omicron doesn’t become pervasive in Florida until this gig is over and I can make it home to the safety of my blue state for the holidays. Because MAN these unvaccinated populations in areas with no precautions are in for some really nasty conditions in the very near future.
From my point of view if you are vaccinated you have taken the necessary step and the masks for the vaccinated are largely performative.
Florida might be one of the safest states to be in right now...
I think the thing that's clearest to me right now is that the US needs to spend a boatload of money to get the world vaccinated. Delta and Omicron both emerged out of countries with very low vaccination rates (though it's unknown whether Omicron originated in South Africa or was simply discovered there first).
I've already resigned that the next couple of years won't really be "normal". We're going to face staffing issues across all industries, and in healthcare in particular. Things are gonna be more expensive as the supply chain recovers and the chip shortage gets addressed.
Mask wearing reduces all kinds of germs, so why wouldn't I?
Mask wearing reduces all kinds of germs, so why wouldn't I?
This is something I don't ever see addressed by people who feel like they are sufficiently protected themselves and can go to "normal" (even if that normal includes not being able to use an ER).
For a millions time, it's not about one person. Even when fully vaccinated, each of us can be a part of transmission chain that ends up killing someone with a weak immune system. Wearing a mask indoors is such a small thing. Why, why, why not do it?
Money isn't going to fix this, as lots of countries have vaccines sitting in freezers waiting for takers, which are few. Unless countries start mandating vaccines, we're basically screwed.
Why?
I question this assumption that people will have to return. Many people demonstrated they can successfully do most if not all of their job remotely.
Curious to know whether people think COVID will eventually go away, or reduce itself to where its seasonal? After 2 years, I think we have enough data to conclude:
A) We will be living with COVID-19 for the rest of our lives.
B) Full immunity lasts about 6 months(vaccine or post-infection).
C) Anyone under age 50 who is healthy and vaccinated has very little reason worry about themselves.
D) Mutations will make annual COVID vaccines necessary, most likely given with your fall flu shot.
Given these assumptions, what does the world do?
Continue with spotty mitigation strategies that may or may not even be effective whenever there is a spike(looks like about 2 per year)? Invest heavily in healthcare and then live life as normal? Have semi-annual seasonal mitigation strategies(Nov -Jan & June-August) that would include indoor masks, mandatory travel quarantine, negative tests to travel/go to large indoor gatherings?
FTFY
Curious to know whether people think COVID will eventually go away, or reduce itself to where its seasonal? After 2 years, I think we have enough data to conclude:
A) We will be living with COVID-19 for the rest of our lives.
B) Full immunity lasts about 6 months(vaccine or post-infection).
C) Anyone under age 50 who is healthy and vaccinated has very little reason worry about themselves.
D) Mutations will make annual COVID vaccines necessary, most likely given with your fall flu shot.
Given these assumptions, what does the world do?
Continue with spotty mitigation strategies that may or may not even be effective whenever there is a spike(looks like about 2 per year)? Invest heavily in healthcare and then live life as normal? Have semi-annual seasonal mitigation strategies(Nov -Jan & June-August) that would include indoor masks, mandatory travel quarantine, negative tests to travel/go to large indoor gatherings?
FTFY
Also, anyone currently under 50 who is healthy and vaccinated (or otherwise), will at some point be over 50. If COVID is with us for the rest of our lifetimes, our individual risk will be constantly increasing with age. And variants could also change the individual risk assessment.
Yes, at this point we are looking at covid-19 becoming endemic and resulting in a permanent reduction in life expectancy.Curious to know whether people think COVID will eventually go away, or reduce itself to where its seasonal? After 2 years, I think we have enough data to conclude:
A) We will be living with COVID-19 for the rest of our lives.
B) Full immunity lasts about 6 months(vaccine or post-infection).
C) Anyone under age 50 who is healthy and vaccinated has very little reason worry about themselves.
D) Mutations will make annual COVID vaccines necessary, most likely given with your fall flu shot.
Given these assumptions, what does the world do?
Continue with spotty mitigation strategies that may or may not even be effective whenever there is a spike(looks like about 2 per year)? Invest heavily in healthcare and then live life as normal? Have semi-annual seasonal mitigation strategies(Nov -Jan & June-August) that would include indoor masks, mandatory travel quarantine, negative tests to travel/go to large indoor gatherings?
FTFY
Also, anyone currently under 50 who is healthy and vaccinated (or otherwise), will at some point be over 50. If COVID is with us for the rest of our lifetimes, our individual risk will be constantly increasing with age. And variants could also change the individual risk assessment.
Yes, at this point we are looking at covid-19 becoming endemic and resulting in a permanent reduction in life expectancy.
Curious to know whether people think COVID will eventually go away, or reduce itself to where its seasonal? After 2 years, I think we have enough data to conclude:
A) We will be living with COVID-19 for the rest of our lives.
B) Full immunity lasts about 6 months(vaccine or post-infection).
C) Anyone under age 50 has very little reason worry about themselves.
D) Mutations will make annual COVID vaccines necessary, most likely given with your fall flu shot.
Given these assumptions, what does the world do?
Continue with spotty mitigation strategies that may or may not even be effective whenever there is a spike(looks like about 2 per year)? Invest heavily in healthcare and then live life as normal? Have semi-annual seasonal mitigation strategies(Nov -Jan & June-August) that would include indoor masks, mandatory travel quarantine, negative tests to travel/go to large indoor gatherings?
I mean, what is the end-game with COVID, regardless of what camp you are in?
On the bad side of things, due to Original Antigenic Sin there is currently no evidence that reformulated boosters will help. On the positive side of things, there is no historic evidence of past coronavirus pandemics which resulted in a permanent reduction of life expectancy.
On the bad side of things, due to Original Antigenic Sin there is currently no evidence that reformulated boosters will help. On the positive side of things, there is no historic evidence of past coronavirus pandemics which resulted in a permanent reduction of life expectancy.
Can you explain more about what you mean about reformulated boosters not helping? Are you saying that a program, similar to the flu shots, that evolves each year's booster to cover the strain most prevalant at that time (or most quickly growing) will not be effective? If not, why not? (To be clear, I'm asking out of ignorance and curiosity; I'm not challenging your assertion in any way, just trying to understand.)
Curious to know whether people think COVID will eventually go away, or reduce itself to where its seasonal? After 2 years, I think we have enough data to conclude:
A) We will be living with COVID-19 for the rest of our lives.
B) Full immunity lasts about 6 months(vaccine or post-infection).
C) Anyone under age 50 has very little reason worry about themselves.
D) Mutations will make annual COVID vaccines necessary, most likely given with your fall flu shot.
Given these assumptions, what does the world do?
Continue with spotty mitigation strategies that may or may not even be effective whenever there is a spike(looks like about 2 per year)? Invest heavily in healthcare and then live life as normal? Have semi-annual seasonal mitigation strategies(Nov -Jan & June-August) that would include indoor masks, mandatory travel quarantine, negative tests to travel/go to large indoor gatherings?
I mean, what is the end-game with COVID, regardless of what camp you are in?
100 years later, people will forget why exactly some groups people walk around as groups under tarps... kind of like no how one remembers why people say "bless you" after you sneeze today.
100 years later, people will forget why exactly some groups people walk around as groups under tarps... kind of like no how one remembers why people say "bless you" after you sneeze today.
...or they may recall that in some Asian countries the tradition to hold tarps during minor meteor showers predates the fallingrockapolypse.
Yes, at this point we are looking at covid-19 becoming endemic and resulting in a permanent reduction in life expectancy.
If this is the case, should we recalibrate early retirement numbers? How much of a life expectancy reduction is expected?
Yes, at this point we are looking at covid-19 becoming endemic and resulting in a permanent reduction in life expectancy.
If this is the case, should we recalibrate early retirement numbers? How much of a life expectancy reduction is expected?
I think its way too early to have any sensible data on whether Covid will have a permanent reduction on life expectancy, which is what i think the poster was suggesting might happen.
https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1343
The BMJ paper says life expectancy in the USA declined by 1.87 years between 2018 and 2020. There were racial disparities in this, declining by 3.88, 3.25, and 1.36 years in Hispanic, non-Hispanic Black, and non-Hispanic White populations respectively.
Obviously we don't have data yet. The paper giving a decline in life expectancy was based on USA deaths in 2020. USA deaths from covid in 2021 have been higher, which means that the decline will continue in 2021. In 2022 it seems unlikely that either vaccination rates in social behaviour will be sufficiently different to change infection rates, morbidity rates or mortality rates. Reinfection rates from omicron for those previously infected with a strain of covid-19 seem to be removing any notion of "herd immunity" from the equation. So I'm not seeing anything which in the next few years at least, and possibly permanently, which will reverse the reduction in life expectancy which has already happened due to covid-19.Yes, at this point we are looking at covid-19 becoming endemic and resulting in a permanent reduction in life expectancy.
If this is the case, should we recalibrate early retirement numbers? How much of a life expectancy reduction is expected?
I think its way too early to have any sensible data on whether Covid will have a permanent reduction on life expectancy, which is what i think the poster was suggesting might happen.
https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1343
The BMJ paper says life expectancy in the USA declined by 1.87 years between 2018 and 2020. There were racial disparities in this, declining by 3.88, 3.25, and 1.36 years in Hispanic, non-Hispanic Black, and non-Hispanic White populations respectively.
Our family's fully vaccinated and the adults are boosted, so we're living life, pretty much, as normal. Don't wear masks, unless required. TBH, we generally avoid going any place that requires masks. Made an exception to see Hamilton, recently, but still haven't gone back to our local cinema, where we used to go once or twice a week, because they're requiring masks. Our local, family-run, grocery store is really small, and they have a sign up that says, "Masks Appreciated," I always put a mask on before going in there, just to respect them and the fact that they are asking nicely, not requiring, that we wear a mask.
Our family's fully vaccinated and the adults are boosted, so we're living life, pretty much, as normal. Don't wear masks, unless required. TBH, we generally avoid going any place that requires masks. Made an exception to see Hamilton, recently, but still haven't gone back to our local cinema, where we used to go once or twice a week, because they're requiring masks. Our local, family-run, grocery store is really small, and they have a sign up that says, "Masks Appreciated," I always put a mask on before going in there, just to respect them and the fact that they are asking nicely, not requiring, that we wear a mask.
Yeah I can get behind that. I just think lots of people are tired of being constantly told what to do in the name of "safety" I am glad we have gotten rid of much of the "covid theatre" Like my local library was closed to in person for over a year. They also spent a ton of resources quarantining the books people returned.....
Anyways about to leave for my annual physical, I wonder if he will recommend a booster....
Our family's fully vaccinated and the adults are boosted, so we're living life, pretty much, as normal. Don't wear masks, unless required. TBH, we generally avoid going any place that requires masks. Made an exception to see Hamilton, recently, but still haven't gone back to our local cinema, where we used to go once or twice a week, because they're requiring masks. Our local, family-run, grocery store is really small, and they have a sign up that says, "Masks Appreciated," I always put a mask on before going in there, just to respect them and the fact that they are asking nicely, not requiring, that we wear a mask.
Yeah I can get behind that. I just think lots of people are tired of being constantly told what to do in the name of "safety" I am glad we have gotten rid of much of the "covid theatre" Like my local library was closed to in person for over a year. They also spent a ton of resources quarantining the books people returned.....
Anyways about to leave for my annual physical, I wonder if he will recommend a booster....
I feel just the opposite. I won't go to a venue unless they require masks and proof of vaccination. Would prefer it if our cinema required masks and/or vaccination, but they do not, so I watch the movies from my couch.
How are you working out the odds on the car death as against the covid death? My understanding is that in 2020 in the USA covid deaths came out at 10 times the number of car deaths.
Whatever floats your boat I guess? It's your health, do as you please with it. However (assuming your vaxed) masked or unmasked its more likely you'd die in a car accident driving to the theatre than from covid right?
Whatever floats your boat I guess? It's your health, do as you please with it. However (assuming your vaxed) masked or unmasked its more likely you'd die in a car accident driving to the theatre than from covid right?
Whatever floats your boat I guess? It's your health, do as you please with it. However (assuming your vaxed) masked or unmasked its more likely you'd die in a car accident driving to the theatre than from covid right?
One more data point for only considering individual risk and completely ignoring societal effects.
Our family's fully vaccinated and the adults are boosted, so we're living life, pretty much, as normal. Don't wear masks, unless required. TBH, we generally avoid going any place that requires masks. Made an exception to see Hamilton, recently, but still haven't gone back to our local cinema, where we used to go once or twice a week, because they're requiring masks. Our local, family-run, grocery store is really small, and they have a sign up that says, "Masks Appreciated," I always put a mask on before going in there, just to respect them and the fact that they are asking nicely, not requiring, that we wear a mask.
Yeah I can get behind that. I just think lots of people are tired of being constantly told what to do in the name of "safety" I am glad we have gotten rid of much of the "covid theatre" Like my local library was closed to in person for over a year. They also spent a ton of resources quarantining the books people returned.....
Anyways about to leave for my annual physical, I wonder if he will recommend a booster....
I feel just the opposite. I won't go to a venue unless they require masks and proof of vaccination. Would prefer it if our cinema required masks and/or vaccination, but they do not, so I watch the movies from my couch.
Whatever floats your boat I guess? It's your health, do as you please with it. However (assuming your vaxed) masked or unmasked its more likely you'd die in a car accident driving to the theatre than from covid right?
My current attitude from our elected officials/business owners etc. Is that using general common sense plus you know, asking rather then mandating EVERYTHING goes a long way.
Findings The NNEs suggest that at least 1,000 unvaccinated people likely need to be excluded to prevent one SARS-CoV-2 transmission event in most types of settings for many jurisdictions, notably Australia, California, Canada, China, France, Israel, and others. The NNEs of almost every jurisdiction examined are well within the range of the NNTs of acetylsalicylic acid (ASA) in primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD) (≥ 250 to 333). This is important since ASA is not recommended for primary prevention of CVD because the harms outweigh the benefits. Similarly, the harms of exclusion may outweigh the benefits. These findings depend on the accuracy of the model assumptions and the baseline infection risk estimates.
How are you working out the odds on the car death as against the covid death? My understanding is that in 2020 in the USA covid deaths came out at 10 times the number of car deaths.
Whatever floats your boat I guess? It's your health, do as you please with it. However (assuming your vaxed) masked or unmasked its more likely you'd die in a car accident driving to the theatre than from covid right?
How are you working out the odds on the car death as against the covid death? My understanding is that in 2020 in the USA covid deaths came out at 10 times the number of car deaths.
Whatever floats your boat I guess? It's your health, do as you please with it. However (assuming your vaxed) masked or unmasked its more likely you'd die in a car accident driving to the theatre than from covid right?
But equally, for both the automobile travel and the masks.
But equally, for both the automobile travel and the masks.
Would you elaborate?
Feel free to join me in the war on cars (https://thewaroncars.org/). Enlist today!
According to the CDC, 70 percent of breakthrough cases resulting in hospitalizations and 87 percent of those resulting in death were in patients over 65. The median age of breakthrough deaths in England was 84; in King County, it was 79.
That 11-fold reduction of risk found in the national CDC study, for instance? Enormous, of course, but it is an average across the observed population as a whole and represents only the equivalent of the difference between an unvaccinated 86-year-old man and a 61-year-old one, all else being equal. According to an analysis of British data by the Financial Times, a vaccinated 80-year-old has about the same mortality risk as an unvaccinated 50-year-old, and an unvaccinated 30-year-old has a lower risk than a vaccinated 45-year-old. Even a 42-fold reduction, as was found in King County, would only be the rough equivalent of the difference between an unvaccinated 85-year-old woman and an unvaccinated 50-year-old — the sort of person who was very worried last year before the arrival of vaccines and who may this year be worrying many of those around them by not getting one.
According to that data, an unvaccinated 10-year-old, who may look like the very picture of COVID vulnerability heading into the school year, faces a lower mortality risk than a vaccinated 25-year-old, whom we might today regard as close to safe as can be. In England, the incidence of hospitalization among unvaccinated kids was lower than that of those vaccinated aged 18 to 29, and in recent weeks, the hospitalization rate among kids ages 5 to 14 has been only about one per 100,000. Over the course of the entire pandemic, which has killed more than 135,000 Brits, just one boy and seven girls between the ages of 5 and 9 have died; between the ages of 10 and 14, nine girls and five boys have died. These are all tragedies — and each means many more years of life lost than with a death among the elderly — but they are nevertheless relatively few in number. As schools reopened on the backslope of the U.K.’s Delta surge, there were about seven times as many British kids under age 5 hospitalized with the respiratory disease RSV as there were with COVID.
That’s because a vaccinated 95-year-old is still probably over a thousand times more at risk of death, all else being equal, than an unvaccinated 15-year-old. Which means we probably shouldn’t be giving those two groups the same advice about masks or social distancing or boosters.
Mask wearing offers differential benefits, too: according to the much-applauded study in Bangladesh, cloth masks of the kind typically worn by children offer very little protection, and the strongest effects of surgical masks were observed among the elderly.
I get the exponentially increasing age risk, but the fact remains that even though I am in my mid-forties, my husband is 50, my in-laws are in their mid-eighties, my still unvaccinated parents are in their late sixties, and I do have immunocompromised friends (that I know of - the number is actually probably higher than I know). It's these people I worry about. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the more at risk they are. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the less space in the hospitals for EVERYONE. It's not about individual risk as much as about community risk and responsibility, a fact which has been repeated ad nauseam in this thread and others but which some people refuse to grasp.
tl/dr; It's NOT JUST ABOUT YOU AND YOUR INDIVIDUAL RISK.
But equally, for both the automobile travel and the masks.
Would you elaborate?
Jon Bon wrote "Whatever floats your boat I guess? It's your health, do as you please with it. However (assuming your vaxed) masked or unmasked its more likely you'd die in a car accident driving to the theatre than from covid right?" and then you wrote "One more data point for only considering individual risk and completely ignoring societal effects."
What you wrote is absolutely true. Comparing your own personal risk level for driving to a theatre to your own personal risk level for getting a breakthrough COVID infection that leads to death does "only considering individual risk and completely ignoring societal effects." But that's true for both the automobile use AND the possibility of spreading SARS-CoV-2 with an asymptomatic breakthrough infection. The car will burn carbon and spread particulate matter and risks killing innocent people in a collision. So I think it's actually a really good comparison, society is struggling with both of those problems right now and we're not quite sure what to do about it (https://www.economist.com/international/2021/12/11/politicians-are-sending-mixed-signals-about-private-car-ownership).
Feel free to join me in the war on cars (https://thewaroncars.org/). Enlist today!
I get the exponentially increasing age risk, but the fact remains that even though I am in my mid-forties, my husband is 50, my in-laws are in their mid-eighties, my still unvaccinated parents are in their late sixties, and I do have immunocompromised friends (that I know of - the number is actually probably higher than I know). It's these people I worry about. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the more at risk they are. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the less space in the hospitals for EVERYONE. It's not about individual risk as much as about community risk and responsibility, a fact which has been repeated ad nauseam in this thread and others but which some people refuse to grasp.
tl/dr; It's NOT JUST ABOUT YOU AND YOUR INDIVIDUAL RISK.
So what is it that you disagree with? Or what are you proposing?
I get the exponentially increasing age risk, but the fact remains that even though I am in my mid-forties, my husband is 50, my in-laws are in their mid-eighties, my still unvaccinated parents are in their late sixties, and I do have immunocompromised friends (that I know of - the number is actually probably higher than I know). It's these people I worry about. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the more at risk they are. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the less space in the hospitals for EVERYONE. It's not about individual risk as much as about community risk and responsibility, a fact which has been repeated ad nauseam in this thread and others but which some people refuse to grasp.
tl/dr; It's NOT JUST ABOUT YOU AND YOUR INDIVIDUAL RISK.
I’ve noticed your comments elsewhere on these forums—thanks for spreading the anti-car gospel! It’s appalling how much car-dependent design absolutely ruins our quality of life in so many “developed” countries around the world and we just take it for granted.
I really hope this all makes this us look really silly in 3 months.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-says-covid-19-pill-near-90-effective-final-analysis-2021-12-14/
My doc has really high hopes for it. Also said the virus is doing what it should do, more contagious and less deadly.
I really hope this all makes this us look really silly in 3 months.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-says-covid-19-pill-near-90-effective-final-analysis-2021-12-14/
My doc has really high hopes for it. Also said the virus is doing what it should do, more contagious and less deadly.
I hope it does... but even if it is as effective as they hope, I guarantee some people are still going to want to see mask mandates and restrictions.
I get the exponentially increasing age risk, but the fact remains that even though I am in my mid-forties, my husband is 50, my in-laws are in their mid-eighties, my still unvaccinated parents are in their late sixties, and I do have immunocompromised friends (that I know of - the number is actually probably higher than I know). It's these people I worry about. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the more at risk they are. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the less space in the hospitals for EVERYONE. It's not about individual risk as much as about community risk and responsibility, a fact which has been repeated ad nauseam in this thread and others but which some people refuse to grasp.
tl/dr; It's NOT JUST ABOUT YOU AND YOUR INDIVIDUAL RISK.
Understood, and the same can be said about other things. If we all treated driving as something to be done only when absolutely necessary (i.e. never for frivolous things such as transportation to social gatherings), there would be fewer car crash victims and more space in the hospital for everyone else. But we don't. We have collectively accepted that there are risks inherent in driving, but also benefits, and we try to balance those as well as we can. We need to come together and define what the line is between acceptable and unacceptable risks. We have arrived at such a line with driving (no driving above a certain speed, no driving drunk, use your headlights at night, etc.). Most of us more or less agree the line should be more or less where the rules say it is, and if you have a significantly lower risk tolerance than the norm you're sort of on your own to protect yourself the best you can.
We're still in the early days of this process with COVID. There are those who still think that any unnecessary group events are too risky, and there are those who think that it should be perfectly fine for a crowd of unvaccinated folks to attend a basketball game unmasked. We're starting to meet in the middle with the rules: sporting events aren't banned outright anymore, but (depending on where you are) they may require a vaccine and/or a negative COVID test and/or mask wearing to attend. I have generally been quite satisfied with how my local leaders have been handling these rules, taking the pulse of how people seem to be feeling while also taking input from experts and generally erring on the side of caution. If my local laws say that going to a restaurant with a vaccine is an acceptable risk to the community, I'm no longer interested in second-guessing that.
I really hope this all makes this us look really silly in 3 months.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-says-covid-19-pill-near-90-effective-final-analysis-2021-12-14/
My doc has really high hopes for it. Also said the virus is doing what it should do, more contagious and less deadly.
I hope it does... but even if it is as effective as they hope, I guarantee some people are still going to want to see mask mandates and restrictions.
That would be awesome. I guarantee some people will still prefer ivermectin, though.
I get the exponentially increasing age risk, but the fact remains that even though I am in my mid-forties, my husband is 50, my in-laws are in their mid-eighties, my still unvaccinated parents are in their late sixties, and I do have immunocompromised friends (that I know of - the number is actually probably higher than I know). It's these people I worry about. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the more at risk they are. And the more covid there is floating around in the community, the less space in the hospitals for EVERYONE. It's not about individual risk as much as about community risk and responsibility, a fact which has been repeated ad nauseam in this thread and others but which some people refuse to grasp.
tl/dr; It's NOT JUST ABOUT YOU AND YOUR INDIVIDUAL RISK.
Understood, and the same can be said about other things. If we all treated driving as something to be done only when absolutely necessary (i.e. never for frivolous things such as transportation to social gatherings), there would be fewer car crash victims and more space in the hospital for everyone else. But we don't. We have collectively accepted that there are risks inherent in driving, but also benefits, and we try to balance those as well as we can. We need to come together and define what the line is between acceptable and unacceptable risks. We have arrived at such a line with driving (no driving above a certain speed, no driving drunk, use your headlights at night, etc.). Most of us more or less agree the line should be more or less where the rules say it is, and if you have a significantly lower risk tolerance than the norm you're sort of on your own to protect yourself the best you can.
We're still in the early days of this process with COVID. There are those who still think that any unnecessary group events are too risky, and there are those who think that it should be perfectly fine for a crowd of unvaccinated folks to attend a basketball game unmasked. We're starting to meet in the middle with the rules: sporting events aren't banned outright anymore, but (depending on where you are) they may require a vaccine and/or a negative COVID test and/or mask wearing to attend. I have generally been quite satisfied with how my local leaders have been handling these rules, taking the pulse of how people seem to be feeling while also taking input from experts and generally erring on the side of caution. If my local laws say that going to a restaurant with a vaccine is an acceptable risk to the community, I'm no longer interested in second-guessing that.
Or maybe we should re-assess the risk that driving poses. Not just in direct deaths, but also second-order effects. Like, I don't know, climate change and obesity. And maybe we shouldn't accept these negatives as readily as we are doing it now.
don't lick toilet seats
I'm a big fan of reducing car dependence and building more walkable/bikeable communities with solid transit options for longer trips. Among other things, I support reconfiguring our streets to prioritize non-car transport in more places, better funding for transit, and pricing of carbon to offset the environmental damage done by fossil fuel usage. I also still own a car and drive it often because my city is still set up in a way that alternatives to driving are highly unpleasant for many trips I want to do. As nice as it would be to reduce the amount of driving (and the community risk created by drivers), I can't say that this risk is so categorically unacceptable that driving needs to be severely curtailed right this instant. And if the community danger from breakthrough COVID infections is roughly in the same ballpark as the community risk from driving (as shown in @PDXTabs statistics), doesn't it make sense to think of the risks in a similar manner?
Some crazy high percentage of motor vehicle deaths are related to either DUI, not wearing a seatbelt, or both. If you always buckle up, and you don’t drive impaired and stay off the roads at times when others are most likely to be impaired (closing time, late at night, NYE, etc) your risk goes down substantially.
Some crazy high percentage of motor vehicle deaths are related to either DUI, not wearing a seatbelt, or both. If you always buckle up, and you don’t drive impaired and stay off the roads at times when others are most likely to be impaired (closing time, late at night, NYE, etc) your risk goes down substantially.
1. DUIs account for well under 50% of deaths https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving
2. How does my pedestrian seat belt work?
I really hope this all makes this us look really silly in 3 months.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-says-covid-19-pill-near-90-effective-final-analysis-2021-12-14/
My doc has really high hopes for it. Also said the virus is doing what it should do, more contagious and less deadly.
I hope it does... but even if it is as effective as they hope, I guarantee some people are still going to want to see mask mandates and restrictions.
Some crazy high percentage of motor vehicle deaths are related to either DUI, not wearing a seatbelt, or both. If you always buckle up, and you don’t drive impaired and stay off the roads at times when others are most likely to be impaired (closing time, late at night, NYE, etc) your risk goes down substantially.
1. DUIs account for well under 50% of deaths https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving
2. How does my pedestrian seat belt work?
1. Combine it with the stats of people not wearing seatbelts, which was my statement. Now what does the math say?
2. You don’t have one. I wasn’t addressing pedestrian deaths I was addressing deaths of drivers.
I also didn’t say you’d be risk free I said your risk goes down substantially. Which is true.
Some crazy high percentage of motor vehicle deaths are related to either DUI, not wearing a seatbelt, or both. If you always buckle up, and you don’t drive impaired and stay off the roads at times when others are most likely to be impaired (closing time, late at night, NYE, etc) your risk goes down substantially.
1. DUIs account for well under 50% of deaths https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving
2. How does my pedestrian seat belt work?
1. Combine it with the stats of people not wearing seatbelts, which was my statement. Now what does the math say?
2. You don’t have one. I wasn’t addressing pedestrian deaths I was addressing deaths of drivers.
I also didn’t say you’d be risk free I said your risk goes down substantially. Which is true.
Shhhh, you can't tell people on the internet that they can take responsibility and improve their odds.
Some crazy high percentage of motor vehicle deaths are related to either DUI, not wearing a seatbelt, or both. If you always buckle up, and you don’t drive impaired and stay off the roads at times when others are most likely to be impaired (closing time, late at night, NYE, etc) your risk goes down substantially.
1. DUIs account for well under 50% of deaths https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving
2. How does my pedestrian seat belt work?
1. Combine it with the stats of people not wearing seatbelts, which was my statement. Now what does the math say?
2. You don’t have one. I wasn’t addressing pedestrian deaths I was addressing deaths of drivers.
I also didn’t say you’d be risk free I said your risk goes down substantially. Which is true.
Some crazy high percentage of motor vehicle deaths are related to either DUI, not wearing a seatbelt, or both. If you always buckle up, and you don’t drive impaired and stay off the roads at times when others are most likely to be impaired (closing time, late at night, NYE, etc) your risk goes down substantially.
1. DUIs account for well under 50% of deaths https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving
2. How does my pedestrian seat belt work?
1. Combine it with the stats of people not wearing seatbelts, which was my statement. Now what does the math say?
2. You don’t have one. I wasn’t addressing pedestrian deaths I was addressing deaths of drivers.
I also didn’t say you’d be risk free I said your risk goes down substantially. Which is true.
Read: vehicular collisions aren’t a problem because the other people in giant protective metal boxes are safe. The deaths of people who travel around their neighborhoods outside of protective metal boxes don’t matter, because they’re smug elitists. And bicyclists run stop signs sometimes so they probably had it coming
.....The bolded is pretty shocking to me.
- We don't know a single person socially who has gotten Covid outside of a couple frontline medical providers right at the start of the pandemic. Since vaccines, zero. Covid feels a little abstract because while we chatter about it socially, nobody actually gets it.
...
...
Speaking of 9/11, we let strangers to see us naked to board a plane, and our government to watch what we are doing without a warrant. All that over ~3,000 deaths. If there were discussions about a return to normal, I missed them. It's generally accepted that there is no going back to pre-9/11 times.
But to wear a mask - sometimes - in a pandemic that took away 800,000 lives is a burden too heavy to bear. It's basically a gospel that we can - and should - start living exactly as before Covid.
If you don't know anyone who has died of covid, or had serious complications of covid, it's possibly because the risk factors for that are closely related to poverty and race and you don't know enough people in that demographic.
Or they don't hang out with old people. Every COVID death I am aware of in my extended network was over the age of 80 and/or in an assisted living facility. Every COVID story I've heard was basically "it was horrible, you don't want it" and they were fine 3-4 days later with no hospitalization.
So no, I don't want to get COVID, but it is not like there are bodies in the street a la the bubonic plague.
Somewhat related, I'm shocked that no one I know well has had a serious case or required hospitalization. We have a large family, spread out over the US, most with risk factors of age and comorbidities. Add a large and extended network of friends from the military and I'm amazed that no one has died due to COVID. Several mild cases but nothing serious.
If you don't know anyone who has died of covid, or had serious complications of covid, it's possibly because the risk factors for that are closely related to poverty and race and you don't know enough people in that demographic.
I'm proposing that we use the golden rule here. Do what you reasonably can to lower the risk you will help turn your community into a covid cesspool with overwhelmed hospitals. For me, that means:
Get vaccinated.
Get boosted.
When case levels are high and hospitalizations are increasing in your community, follow indoor masking and other cdc recommendations.
Somewhat related, I'm shocked that no one I know well has had a serious case or required hospitalization. We have a large family, spread out over the US, most with risk factors of age and comorbidities. Add a large and extended network of friends from the military and I'm amazed that no one has died due to COVID. Several mild cases but nothing serious.
Same here. I hear about people dying from it (sometimes even whole families) on the news, but the personal experience is totally different. Nobody I know or am related to has had symptoms worse than a cold, when they had any at all (and I'm in a largely older, anti-vax, and anti-mask family that likes to travel). I'm really curious as to what the difference might be. We know that age is a risk factor, but there must be something else that's much stronger. Is it nutritional since lower income people seem to have a worse time? Maybe genetic as to the thing with whole families? Probably some combination of course, but there may be one strong factor that hasn't been positively identified yet.
If you don't know anyone who has died of covid, or had serious complications of covid, it's possibly because the risk factors for that are closely related to poverty and race and you don't know enough people in that demographic.
Finally, do you propose these mitigation measures to go in perpetuity? We are at 2 years and counting, with a heavy psychological and economical toll. I'm just putting the suggestion out there that we might need different strategies than currently adopted, especially given the adopted strategies appear to have failed.
Or they don't hang out with old people. Every COVID death I am aware of in my extended network was over the age of 80 and/or in an assisted living facility. Every COVID story I've heard was basically "it was horrible, you don't want it" and they were fine 3-4 days later with no hospitalization.
So no, I don't want to get COVID, but it is not like there are bodies in the street a la the bubonic plague.
800,000 is a lot of bodies. We have states smaller than that. It's like entire North Dakota gone, or one and a half Wyoming. That they are not in the streets speaks more to our ability to handle dead bodies, not to the size of the pile of bodies.
Also, younger people absolutely do die. My friend's sister died in her 50s.
Finally, do you propose these mitigation measures to go in perpetuity? We are at 2 years and counting, with a heavy psychological and economical toll. I'm just putting the suggestion out there that we might need different strategies than currently adopted, especially given the adopted strategies appear to have failed.
United States lost 802,000 out of the population of ~335 million. That comes to approximately 1 of 417 Americans dying.
Our friends to the North lost ~30,000 out of the population of 38 million. Or approximately 1 out of 1266 Canadians.
We are doing 3 times worse. Canadians kept each other alive 3 times better with no draconian measures, no loss of freedom, and only marginally worse economic performance. They had no tools that we didn't have. In fact, they were at a disadvantage - we got vaccines and cutting edge treatments well before them, and we had more intensive care units per capita.
How can we look at this and decide that nothing can be done better?
How can we look at this and decide that nothing can be done better?
Finally, do you propose these mitigation measures to go in perpetuity? We are at 2 years and counting, with a heavy psychological and economical toll. I'm just putting the suggestion out there that we might need different strategies than currently adopted, especially given the adopted strategies appear to have failed.
United States lost 802,000 out of the population of ~335 million. That comes to approximately 1 of 417 Americans dying.
Our friends to the North lost ~30,000 out of the population of 38 million. Or approximately 1 out of 1266 Canadians.
We are doing 3 times worse. Canadians kept each other alive 3 times better with no draconian measures, no loss of freedom, and only marginally worse economic performance. They had no tools that we didn't have. In fact, they were at a disadvantage - we got vaccines and cutting edge treatments well before them, and we had more intensive care units per capita.
How can we look at this and decide that nothing can be done better?
I don’t think that’s the message. I think the message is that the two things that are most focused on as “we must do this to defeat the virus!” to the point of hysteria are shown to be relatively middling in effectiveness. Doubling down on things that aren’t doing a great job isn’t better just because it’s “doing something”.
I don’t think that’s the message. I think the message is that the two things that are most focused on as “we must do this to defeat the virus!” to the point of hysteria are shown to be relatively middling in effectiveness. Doubling down on things that aren’t doing a great job isn’t better just because it’s “doing something”.
Once you remove the emotional and unsubstantiated dig at the imaginary hysteria, what's left in your argument?
Healthier population, less population density & the timing of the waves are big factors here. Yes, Canada is "doing better" but the United states had massive outbreaks brewing (New York / New Jersey) by the time most in the world knew Covid was going to be a huge problem.
Sure, this isn't to deny COVID isn't real or that younger people haven't died from it.
As others have posted, there are what, a good 330 million Americans? First number on google is ~2.6 million Americans die every year. With an average life expectancy of 78.8 years. There is a lot of overlap on Comorbitiies.
And this is actually my now not secret COVID pet peeve. Why isn't public health hammering us to exercise more and diet? If everyone walked more, lost 5 lbs and ate more salad their risk profile would go down. And if I am totally wrong and being fat and out of shape does not affect your COVID risk?
The major side effect of this program would be a reduced risk of heart disease and high blood pressure.
That no one’s saying we can’t do better, they’re (or at least Lurker who I agree with) is saying what we’re doing isn’t all that effective. If you ask most people who want a better response to Covid what to do, they’ll say more masks and more vaxx. Those aren’t really effective.
wearing mask in public is essential as its effectiveness has already been well established by the current studies
If you don't know anyone who has died of covid, or had serious complications of covid, it's possibly because the risk factors for that are closely related to poverty and race and you don't know enough people in that demographic.
Or they don't hang out with old people. Every COVID death I am aware of in my extended network was over the age of 80 and/or in an assisted living facility. Every COVID story I've heard was basically "it was horrible, you don't want it" and they were fine 3-4 days later with no hospitalization.
So no, I don't want to get COVID, but it is not like there are bodies in the street a la the bubonic plague.
That said, I'm often the only mask-wearer in the grocery store. I don't judge people who don't wear it. I understand. And if the ability to take off the mask is what pushes someone to get vaccinated, I am TEN THOUSAND percent supportive of that.
Finally, do you propose these mitigation measures to go in perpetuity? We are at 2 years and counting, with a heavy psychological and economical toll. I'm just putting the suggestion out there that we might need different strategies than currently adopted, especially given the adopted strategies appear to have failed.
United States lost 802,000 out of the population of ~335 million. That comes to approximately 1 of 417 Americans dying.
Our friends to the North lost ~30,000 out of the population of 38 million. Or approximately 1 out of 1266 Canadians.
We are doing 3 times worse. Canadians kept each other alive 3 times better with no draconian measures, no loss of freedom, and only marginally worse economic performance. They had no tools that we didn't have. In fact, they were at a disadvantage - we got vaccines and cutting edge treatments well before them, and we had more intensive care units per capita.
How can we look at this and decide that nothing can be done better?
wearing mask in public is essential as its effectiveness has already been well established by the current studies
Compared to villages that didn't mask, those where masks of any type were worn had about 9% fewer symptomatic cases of COVID-19. The finding was statistically significant and was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.
Quotewearing mask in public is essential as its effectiveness has already been well established by the current studies
Then why hasn't it worked in someplace like... Los Angeles where mask mandates are back in effect?
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study
I was mistaken, it was 9% less, not 5%.QuoteCompared to villages that didn't mask, those where masks of any type were worn had about 9% fewer symptomatic cases of COVID-19. The finding was statistically significant and was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.
I kind of feel the same way, in the beginning when we had an unapproved vaccine we were encouraging people to get a new product using new tech was a bit of a hard sell. However there was a huge carrot of well if you are vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask anymore.
Now its all the stick, just cancel everything and wear a mask basically forever?
The goal posts/safety margin has constantly moved which is extremely frustrating. I think that pretty much everyone has a "aw screw it" moment you know?
First it was hard lockdown that scared the shit out of everyone. Then flatten the curve, then cancel everything and mask up. Then it was encourage the vaccine and we are gonna beat this! Now everyone has gotten a vaccine that wants one, and I kind of feel we are in the same place. Not really trying to make points to anyone here just how I think a fair amount of people feel about the situation.
"Well if nothing is every going to get better with covid I am going to live my life and damn the torpedo's!" So to speak....
I would just like to see more collaborative efforts from our institutions rather than directive.
Quotewearing mask in public is essential as its effectiveness has already been well established by the current studies
Then why hasn't it worked in someplace like... Los Angeles where mask mandates are back in effect?
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study
I was mistaken, it was 9% less, not 5%.QuoteCompared to villages that didn't mask, those where masks of any type were worn had about 9% fewer symptomatic cases of COVID-19. The finding was statistically significant and was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.
There was some research done on this last year. Re: why cities with mandates didn't seem to out perform on balance. The conclusion was that mandate <> adoption. You can tell people to do something, but who is going to enforce it? Citizens? The guy scanning groceries making $10/hr?
If you don't know anyone who has died of covid, or had serious complications of covid, it's possibly because the risk factors for that are closely related to poverty and race and you don't know enough people in that demographic.
Or they don't hang out with old people. Every COVID death I am aware of in my extended network was over the age of 80 and/or in an assisted living facility. Every COVID story I've heard was basically "it was horrible, you don't want it" and they were fine 3-4 days later with no hospitalization.
So no, I don't want to get COVID, but it is not like there are bodies in the street a la the bubonic plague.
Quotewearing mask in public is essential as its effectiveness has already been well established by the current studies
Then why hasn't it worked in someplace like... Los Angeles where mask mandates are back in effect?
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study
I was mistaken, it was 9% less, not 5%.QuoteCompared to villages that didn't mask, those where masks of any type were worn had about 9% fewer symptomatic cases of COVID-19. The finding was statistically significant and was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.
There was some research done on this last year. Re: why cities with mandates didn't seem to out perform on balance. The conclusion was that mandate <> adoption. You can tell people to do something, but who is going to enforce it? Citizens? The guy scanning groceries making $10/hr?
There's good news and bad news here. The bad news is that the mandates aren't enforceable en masse outside of say, government buildings. The good news is that people decide to wear masks on their own when the virus gets worse in their area.
Quotewearing mask in public is essential as its effectiveness has already been well established by the current studies
Then why hasn't it worked in someplace like... Los Angeles where mask mandates are back in effect?
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study
I was mistaken, it was 9% less, not 5%.QuoteCompared to villages that didn't mask, those where masks of any type were worn had about 9% fewer symptomatic cases of COVID-19. The finding was statistically significant and was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.
There was some research done on this last year. Re: why cities with mandates didn't seem to out perform on balance. The conclusion was that mandate <> adoption. You can tell people to do something, but who is going to enforce it? Citizens? The guy scanning groceries making $10/hr?
There's good news and bad news here. The bad news is that the mandates aren't enforceable en masse outside of say, government buildings. The good news is that people decide to wear masks on their own when the virus gets worse in their area.
I will tell you anecdotally in my little area of Chicagoland, masking is 95%+ indoors. We have a mandate and almost everyone follows it. And I don’t think we’re any better or worse than anywhere else.
There’s also the extremely silly theater. You’d be getting daggers everywhere around here for walking into a restaurant without a mask. However, once at your table, you’re more than welcome to sit there unmasked for hours and hours eating and drinking and laughing and talking and no one thinks anything of it. It’s silly. Hell, I was at an important meeting at work this week (first time in my office in almost a year) and we all masked up like the good responsible people we are for a 6-hour meeting. Except for the hour they brought in lunch, where we all de-masked and sat at the same table and ate and talked for an hour. Then lunch was over and we all put our masks back on. Why? I dunno. It was dumb.
Quotewearing mask in public is essential as its effectiveness has already been well established by the current studies
Then why hasn't it worked in someplace like... Los Angeles where mask mandates are back in effect?
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study
I was mistaken, it was 9% less, not 5%.QuoteCompared to villages that didn't mask, those where masks of any type were worn had about 9% fewer symptomatic cases of COVID-19. The finding was statistically significant and was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.
There was some research done on this last year. Re: why cities with mandates didn't seem to out perform on balance. The conclusion was that mandate <> adoption. You can tell people to do something, but who is going to enforce it? Citizens? The guy scanning groceries making $10/hr?
There's good news and bad news here. The bad news is that the mandates aren't enforceable en masse outside of say, government buildings. The good news is that people decide to wear masks on their own when the virus gets worse in their area.
I will tell you anecdotally in my little area of Chicagoland, masking is 95%+ indoors. We have a mandate and almost everyone follows it. And I don’t think we’re any better or worse than anywhere else.
There’s also the extremely silly theater. You’d be getting daggers everywhere around here for walking into a restaurant without a mask. However, once at your table, you’re more than welcome to sit there unmasked for hours and hours eating and drinking and laughing and talking and no one thinks anything of it. It’s silly. Hell, I was at an important meeting at work this week (first time in my office in almost a year) and we all masked up like the good responsible people we are for a 6-hour meeting. Except for the hour they brought in lunch, where we all de-masked and sat at the same table and ate and talked for an hour. Then lunch was over and we all put our masks back on. Why? I dunno. It was dumb.
That's one of my big complaints about he US response. Rules that aren't enforced aren't really rules (have you seen our drivers?). In Italy police enforce mandates (https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-12-06/italy-unvaccinated-new-restrictions). I've seen zero police enforcement of anything pandemic policies in Oregon or Washington. Grocery store enforcement is also very spotty, presumably because they don't get a big ass fine from the OLCC like they do for alcohol sales. Also, the OLCC stings for alcohol sales but not masks.
So, mask rules are like those pesky rules about indicating before changing lanes or not driving 1mph over the speed-limit or not turning into the wrong lane. They are a technicality that does not stop you from doing whatever the fuck you want, because rules that are not enforced are not really rules.
But then we might need actual rules for exempting people who shouldn't be wearing them.
We can't. Its obvious the mitigation strategies we have used have not worked. So why continue them given the cost?
However, check out the bolded part. Look at Canada and ask what they did different. Mandatory quarantine for people entering the country. Closed border for all but essential travel. Vaccination mandate for mass transit(including air travel). Ban or limitations on social gatherings nationwide. That certainly sounds to me like loss of freedom and draconian measures.
Is that loss of freedom worth ~600,000 lives? Would those measures have made that big of a difference? Would they have been feasible and legal? My initial instinct would be no, they would not be feasible or legal in the US.
Finally, do you propose these mitigation measures to go in perpetuity? We are at 2 years and counting, with a heavy psychological and economical toll. I'm just putting the suggestion out there that we might need different strategies than currently adopted, especially given the adopted strategies appear to have failed.
United States lost 802,000 out of the population of ~335 million. That comes to approximately 1 of 417 Americans dying.
Our friends to the North lost ~30,000 out of the population of 38 million. Or approximately 1 out of 1266 Canadians.
We are doing 3 times worse. Canadians kept each other alive 3 times better with no draconian measures, no loss of freedom, and only marginally worse economic performance. They had no tools that we didn't have. In fact, they were at a disadvantage - we got vaccines and cutting edge treatments well before them, and we had more intensive care units per capita.
How can we look at this and decide that nothing can be done better?
Then why hasn't it worked in someplace like... Los Angeles where mask mandates are back in effect?
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study
I was mistaken, it was 9% less, not 5%.
That no one’s saying we can’t do better, they’re (or at least Lurker who I agree with) is saying what we’re doing isn’t all that effective. If you ask most people who want a better response to Covid what to do, they’ll say more masks and more vaxx. Those aren’t really effective.
On the contrary - it is a common theme in this thread that nothing can be done. That action, beyond vax, is pointless.
Quotewearing mask in public is essential as its effectiveness has already been well established by the current studies
Then why hasn't it worked in someplace like... Los Angeles where mask mandates are back in effect?
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study
I was mistaken, it was 9% less, not 5%.QuoteCompared to villages that didn't mask, those where masks of any type were worn had about 9% fewer symptomatic cases of COVID-19. The finding was statistically significant and was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.
I agree with you. If you're making the decision to uncover your face to eat in a restaurant, there's little point in masking between the door and your table.
Or they don't hang out with old people. Every COVID death I am aware of in my extended network was over the age of 80 and/or in an assisted living facility. Every COVID story I've heard was basically "it was horrible, you don't want it" and they were fine 3-4 days later with no hospitalization.
So no, I don't want to get COVID, but it is not like there are bodies in the street a la the bubonic plague.
800,000 is a lot of bodies. We have states smaller than that. It's like entire North Dakota gone, or one and a half Wyoming. That they are not in the streets speaks more to our ability to handle dead bodies, not to the size of the pile of bodies.
Also, younger people absolutely do die. My friend's sister died in her 50s.
If you’ve been fully vaccinated: You can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic. To reduce the risk of being infected with the Delta variant and possibly spreading it to others, wear a mask indoors in public if you are in an area of substantial or high transmission.
I think we should definitely settle into a social norm of wearing masks when we have respiratory symptoms, but for asymptomatic people the benefit seems much less.
Pretty much every other possible mitigation effort requires people to abstain from activities that would otherwise bring positive value to their lives, and for what? So that if people happen to be infected without knowing it they'll have less opportunity to pass it along to someone else who—if they do get infected—will probably turn out fine unless they didn't get their vaccine? That's where I start to say I'm not interested in playing along anymore.
I'm operating on the assumption that COVID will be around forever. For it to be otherwise it seems we'd need to do some sort of coordinated worldwide lockdown <skipped>
So, let me throw it back to you. If COVID will be around forever, what things should we not have anymore because they're just too risky? Should nobody ever eat at a restaurant again? Sing in a choir? Play in an orchestra? Go to a basketball game? Where's your line between acceptable and unacceptable risks given the ever-present virus?
And this is actually my now not secret COVID pet peeve. Why isn't public health hammering us to exercise more and diet?
This deals with the difference between acute and chronic issues. COVID is acute. Obesity is chronic. Eating salads and walking more doesn't fix COVID in the immediate. It doesn't provide any relief for hospitals.
We are almost two years in, it is feeling pretty chronic. Note getting the Vaccine doesn't reduce loads on hospitals right now either. It reduces the loads some time in the future after you have done your sequence.
And this is actually my now not secret COVID pet peeve. Why isn't public health hammering us to exercise more and diet?
This deals with the difference between acute and chronic issues. COVID is acute. Obesity is chronic. Eating salads and walking more doesn't fix COVID in the immediate. It doesn't provide any relief for hospitals.
We are almost two years in, it is feeling pretty chronic. Note getting the Vaccine doesn't reduce loads on hospitals right now either. It reduces the loads some time in the future after you have done your sequence.
Then why hasn't it worked in someplace like... Los Angeles where mask mandates are back in effect?
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study
I was mistaken, it was 9% less, not 5%.
a) mask mandate is not the same as mask wearing.
b) did not work as measured how? LA not beating Covid to zero cases? You have to measure LA with people wearing masks against LA with people not wearing masks on number of deaths/hospitalizations to say "it didn't work"
c) 9% in the study isn't efficacy of masks. It's efficacy of telling people in a village to wear a mask.
But let's run with this number for a second. 9% of 800,000 is 72,000 people. I know, it's way back of the envelope, and 800K is with some of us wearing masks.
But still, is 72,000 fellow Americans staying alive not enough incentive for you to wear a mask indoors? What size pile of bodies do you need to wear one?
get that. Apparent goal-post shifting is tough. And it's hard when the CDC says one thing and the WHO says another and the WH says a third. It can be fatiguing.
People want a simple and direct answer. But what I keep falling back on, is that this is largely an unrealistic expectation. This is a novel virus killing millions of people. It's a hard problem to address and the science is evolving all the time.
I know people want a simple answer. I know they want their freedom. I know they want healthcare services to be available to them with no disruption. I know they don't want to get sick and die from COVID. I know they want the labor market to be more settle and have less burnout.
But we quite simply can't have all of these. We're working out the balance in real time. And the stakes are very very high.
That's one of my big complaints about he US response. Rules that aren't enforced aren't really rules (have you seen our drivers?). In Italy police enforce mandates (https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-12-06/italy-unvaccinated-new-restrictions). I've seen zero police enforcement of anything pandemic policies in Oregon or Washington. Grocery store enforcement is also very spotty, presumably because they don't get a big ass fine from the OLCC like they do for alcohol sales. Also, the OLCC stings for alcohol sales but not masks.
So, mask rules are like those pesky rules about indicating before changing lanes or not driving 1mph over the speed-limit or not turning into the wrong lane. They are a technicality that does not stop you from doing whatever the fuck you want, because rules that are not enforced are not really rules.
But then we might need actual rules for exempting people who shouldn't be wearing them.
It's interesting you bring up the topic of rules, enforcement and compliance, because I've been thinking a lot about that lately.
We seem to have a large group of people who say they will follow the rules outside their homes, but are resistant to following the guidelines - often because they disagree with their effectiveness or find the recommendation to be a burden.
Then we've got a very loud minority that resist any attempt to make the guidelines into rules, (because freedom...?).
So we are left in a position where rules (often called "mandates") are deeply unpopular and frequently only enacted as a last resort, and instead presented as guidelines, which are widely ignored because they aren't rules, and a pandemic that won't subside for a combination of reactors.
It's the proverbial 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation, and we all wind up worse off.
Weird, 'cuz I like Canadian TV.Finally, do you propose these mitigation measures to go in perpetuity? We are at 2 years and counting, with a heavy psychological and economical toll. I'm just putting the suggestion out there that we might need different strategies than currently adopted, especially given the adopted strategies appear to have failed.
United States lost 802,000 out of the population of ~335 million. That comes to approximately 1 of 417 Americans dying.
Our friends to the North lost ~30,000 out of the population of 38 million. Or approximately 1 out of 1266 Canadians.
We are doing 3 times worse. Canadians kept each other alive 3 times better with no draconian measures, no loss of freedom, and only marginally worse economic performance. They had no tools that we didn't have. In fact, they were at a disadvantage - we got vaccines and cutting edge treatments well before them, and we had more intensive care units per capita.
How can we look at this and decide that nothing can be done better?
There aren't even any cultural differences to point at - as Canadians we get all our culture from American TV. :P
Quoteget that. Apparent goal-post shifting is tough. And it's hard when the CDC says one thing and the WHO says another and the WH says a third. It can be fatiguing.
People want a simple and direct answer. But what I keep falling back on, is that this is largely an unrealistic expectation. This is a novel virus killing millions of people. It's a hard problem to address and the science is evolving all the time.
I know people want a simple answer. I know they want their freedom. I know they want healthcare services to be available to them with no disruption. I know they don't want to get sick and die from COVID. I know they want the labor market to be more settle and have less burnout.
But we quite simply can't have all of these. We're working out the balance in real time. And the stakes are very very high.
Yep. It's not goal shifting. People want easy and simple. We tried that with "please don't wear masks" in early 2020, when it should have been "save the N95's for hospital workers until we get enough for everyone else, but in the mean time, cover your face."
It SEEMS like the vaccines mean "hey, no more masks!" And that is just FINE when you are dealing with alpha. It's less fine when Delta is 2-3x more contagious than Alpha and Omicron is AGAIN 2x more contagious than delta. The virus is changing, thus we need to also.
a) Agreed. But I'm not willing to put in the kind of enforcement at this point to make them the same. And yes, because freedom.
b) Case loads rising, hospitalizations rising.
c) That's not how it works. All 72,000 would not die. 72,000 would get infected and then 0.5%, at most, would die = 360 people.
It sounds callous to say "let 360 people die so I don't have to walk around wearing a surgical mask", but its the truth that many people would be willing take that risk.
In the US, there have been ~50,000,000 cases. Reduce that by 9% = 4,500,000 * 0.5% = 22,500 fewer deaths over 2 years, if we all started wearing surgical masks on March 1, 2020 (when the CDC lied and advised us not to in order to protect mask supply for healthcare workers) and continued to this day. Assuming 100% use by people in the US.
That also assumes we either 1) never stop wearing them or 2) eventually COVID-19 disappears or becomes a statistically insignificant disease. Both are very unlikely, so there is a chance you simply delay rather than prevent death, which still has value.
I'm also operating on the assumption that COVID will be around forever. However, I do not accept that the only reaction to a permanent change is to accept all negative consequences.
…Mask mandates should stay, for all - it's too unreliable to trust the goodwill, and people respond better to simple rules that don't change.
Do I read this to mean you think mask mandates should be here forever? Because…no.
Pretty much every other possible mitigation effort requires people to abstain from activities that would otherwise bring positive value to their lives, and for what? So that if people happen to be infected without knowing it they'll have less opportunity to pass it along to someone else who—if they do get infected—will probably turn out fine unless they didn't get their vaccine? That's where I start to say I'm not interested in playing along anymore.
...or have a weakened immune system. People receiving an organ transplant, cancer survivors, autoimmune disorders - these things are not rare by any stretch, and these people had enough trouble staying alive even before Covid. Do you want to re-think you answer with this in mind?
QuoteSo, let me throw it back to you. If COVID will be around forever, what things should we not have anymore because they're just too risky? Should nobody ever eat at a restaurant again? Sing in a choir? Play in an orchestra? Go to a basketball game? Where's your line between acceptable and unacceptable risks given the ever-present virus?
I'm also operating on the assumption that COVID will be around forever. However, I do not accept that the only reaction to a permanent change is to accept all negative consequences.
There are mitigation measures that can (and should) be taken. Improved ventilation is the most obvious one. Others can require vaccination and/or frequent testing, which orchestras are doing already. Mask mandates should stay, for all - it's too unreliable to trust the goodwill, and people respond better to simple rules that don't change. WFH rules may need to be strengthened, possibly through legislation. Paid sick live is a must - it's a travesty that we didn't have it before, it's 10x worse that we don't have it now. Internet must reach 100% of households.
In general, I don't have all the answers (and that's an understatement), but I invite you to approach it from the angle of "if there's the will, there's the way". What this topic tells me is that we lost the will, not that there's no way (again, look North).
I'm also operating on the assumption that COVID will be around forever. However, I do not accept that the only reaction to a permanent change is to accept all negative consequences.
…Mask mandates should stay, for all - it's too unreliable to trust the goodwill, and people respond better to simple rules that don't change.
Do I read this to mean you think mask mandates should be here forever? Because…no.
Now that they are available, why don't we just require N95s? they meet a standard, fit/seal better and are what the medicos use when they are seeing dirty people. If they did a large scale study, n95s will way outperform masking.
Now that they are available, why don't we just require N95s? they meet a standard, fit/seal better and are what the medicos use when they are seeing dirty people. If they did a large scale study, n95s will way outperform masking.
Because the Republicans aren't going to support a mask mandate and the Democrats aren't going to require poor people to buy N95s.
Do I read this to mean you think mask mandates should be here forever? Because…no.
Do I read this to mean that we should keep losing 1,000+ friends and neighbors forever? Because... no.
But that's ok. I'll wait until you move from an "unlikely to be killed by Covid" category to a "likely to be killed by Covid" category, and then ask again.
Now that they are available, why don't we just require N95s? they meet a standard, fit/seal better and are what the medicos use when they are seeing dirty people. If they did a large scale study, n95s will way outperform masking.
Because the Republicans aren't going to support a mask mandate and the Democrats aren't going to require poor people to buy N95s.
oh no, you just brought cost into the equation. I'm gonna duck and cover now!
On a more serious note, I would not throw the word "forever" around. Before I got accused that my screen name has a literal meaning, there are some obvious criteria of success:
- US develops a culture of voluntary mask wearing in appropriate (to be defined) circumstances
- there is a widely available treatment of Covid that doesn't require hospitalization, and drives mortality down to a certain threshold
- the virus mutates and/or our immune system adapts to it to the point that its lethality is comparable to a flu
We do however find ourselves faced with the conundrum of the need to someday get back to a semi-normal place. With a significant minority of the population refusing vaccination, and the risk to the <55y.o. vaccinated crowd down to a level commensurate with a bad flu season, maybe we should just go back to normal and let things run their course? It would be some hellish scenes with hospitals overrun for a few months, with death panels choosing who gets a bed and who gets left to die, but maybe we'd get to the other side sooner. Horrible choices we are stuck with due to on-going mismanagement (still poor rapid test availability), and rampant selfish behavior. I've become nihilistic at this point, and feel like I am going through the motions to be responsible, but feeling like it is increasingly pointless.
Do I read this to mean you think mask mandates should be here forever? Because…no.
Do I read this to mean that we should keep losing 1,000+ friends and neighbors forever? Because... no.
But that's ok. I'll wait until you move from an "unlikely to be killed by Covid" category to a "likely to be killed by Covid" category, and then ask again.
If you don't know anyone who has died of covid, or had serious complications of covid, it's possibly because the risk factors for that are closely related to poverty and race and you don't know enough people in that demographic.
Or they don't hang out with old people. Every COVID death I am aware of in my extended network was over the age of 80 and/or in an assisted living facility. Every COVID story I've heard was basically "it was horrible, you don't want it" and they were fine 3-4 days later with no hospitalization.
So no, I don't want to get COVID, but it is not like there are bodies in the street a la the bubonic plague.
It's not really fair that you have to do extra work to keep yourself safe from foods you can't eat, but it's also not fair to expect everyone else to abstain from bringing foods that they enjoy to a party just because a small minority might not be able to stomach them.
This is not a very concrete answer to my question. Do you or do you not believe that there are activities that we inherently should not do ever again while COVID exists? Or are even the most risky things (like singing in a choir) okay to return to once they upgrade the HVAC system and everyone is vaccinated?
At some point the virus will have infected everyone and there won’t be anyone left for it to burn through. I’m turning 40 early next year, so the odds are good that happens long before I hit the age of “likely to be killed by Covid”.
As far as lethality is concerned we're there already, at least for those who are vaccinated. A typical flu season will see several hundred thousand Americans hospitalized for influenza (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html). 0.1-0.2% of the population hospitalized in the year is pretty typical, and about a tenth of those hospitalized die. Right now in my county we're seeing vaccinated people turn up in the hospital for COVID at a rate of 0.12 per 100,000 population per day (https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/vaccination-outcomes.aspx). Multiply that out by 365 and we get about 0.04% of the vaccinated population in the hospital annually, less than even a light flu season. The death rate (as a fraction of those hospitalized) seems higher for COVID than flu, but the lower COVID hospitalization rate means the overall death rate seems pretty comparable between the two diseases.
At some point the virus will have infected everyone and there won’t be anyone left for it to burn through. I’m turning 40 early next year, so the odds are good that happens long before I hit the age of “likely to be killed by Covid”.
Do I understand it right that your attitude is informed by an expectation of never being in "likely to be killed by Covid" category?
It's not really fair that you have to do extra work to keep yourself safe from foods you can't eat, but it's also not fair to expect everyone else to abstain from bringing foods that they enjoy to a party just because a small minority might not be able to stomach them.
On the contrary, people in my circle fall over backwards to not bring food know to cause a friend grief to a party. I assumed it's like that everywhere.QuoteThis is not a very concrete answer to my question. Do you or do you not believe that there are activities that we inherently should not do ever again while COVID exists? Or are even the most risky things (like singing in a choir) okay to return to once they upgrade the HVAC system and everyone is vaccinated?
You keep trying to get me into a corner with absolutes. But everything is a matter of degrees. I don't know every single activity, and thus I don't know if anything may need to be off the table completely.
But lets take choirs. Best I know, people involved in them
- require vaccination
- improve ventilation
- take frequent tests
This seems like an appropriate level of precautions. I would be comfortable having one next door, or attending one. It would be appropriate for an audience - which doesn't take frequent tests - to wear masks.
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study
I was mistaken, it was 9% less, not 5%.QuoteCompared to villages that didn't mask, those where masks of any type were worn had about 9% fewer symptomatic cases of COVID-19. The finding was statistically significant and was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.
It's not really fair that you have to do extra work to keep yourself safe from foods you can't eat, but it's also not fair to expect everyone else to abstain from bringing foods that they enjoy to a party just because a small minority might not be able to stomach them.
On the contrary, people in my circle fall over backwards to not bring food know to cause a friend grief to a party. I assumed it's like that everywhere.
QuoteThis is not a very concrete answer to my question. Do you or do you not believe that there are activities that we inherently should not do ever again while COVID exists? Or are even the most risky things (like singing in a choir) okay to return to once they upgrade the HVAC system and everyone is vaccinated?
You keep trying to get me into a corner with absolutes. But everything is a matter of degrees. I don't know every single activity, and thus I don't know if anything may need to be off the table completely.
But lets take choirs. Best I know, people involved in them
- require vaccination
- improve ventilation
- take frequent tests
This seems like an appropriate level of precautions. I would be comfortable having one next door, or attending one. It would be appropriate for an audience - which doesn't take frequent tests - to wear masks.
I've been reading this thread for awhile and I suddenly hada whole viewpoint shiftit.
Life never goes "back to normal" It keeps changing. Another "back to normal" could be lots of drunk driving, I remember those days. There may be people who miss them. I don't. Oh, and shall we go "back to normal" where the normal was scarlet fever (rheumatic fever) that caused life-long heart damage? Where measles caused life-long complications? Where Rubella meant the possibility of a child with birth defects (Agatha Christie wrote a murder mystery based on this, it was a real issue).
I'd like new normals. Normals where people who are sick can stay home from work without pressure instead of being forced germ vectors. Normals where people working hourly jobs don't get dinged for taking time for health care (like getting vaccinated for something). Normals where people respect social norms and boundaries instead of complaining about them.
And let's also remember that for a lot of people on this globe, life will never "go back to normal" because they died, or someone close to them died, or they or someone close to them has long term health consequences. I've heard horror stories from social workers here in Ontario of families devastated by Covid. The Spanish Flu caused long term consequences for my family, things did not and could not go "back to normal" for them.
"Back to normal" is a pipe dream.
I've been reading this thread for awhile and I suddenly hada whole viewpoint shiftit.
Life never goes "back to normal" It keeps changing. Another "back to normal" could be lots of drunk driving, I remember those days. There may be people who miss them. I don't. Oh, and shall we go "back to normal" where the normal was scarlet fever (rheumatic fever) that caused life-long heart damage? Where measles caused life-long complications? Where Rubella meant the possibility of a child with birth defects (Agatha Christie wrote a murder mystery based on this, it was a real issue).
I'd like new normals. Normals where people who are sick can stay home from work without pressure instead of being forced germ vectors. Normals where people working hourly jobs don't get dinged for taking time for health care (like getting vaccinated for something). Normals where people respect social norms and boundaries instead of complaining about them.
And let's also remember that for a lot of people on this globe, life will never "go back to normal" because they died, or someone close to them died, or they or someone close to them has long term health consequences. I've heard horror stories from social workers here in Ontario of families devastated by Covid. The Spanish Flu caused long term consequences for my family, things did not and could not go "back to normal" for them.
"Back to normal" is a pipe dream.
All of those things sound great, but can we just stop mask mandates? That's all I really care about in the end.
All of those things sound great, but can we just stop mask mandates? That's all I really care about in the end.
All of those things sound great, but can we just stop mask mandates? That's all I really care about in the end.
Can you explain why masks are such a key issue for you?
As someone who’s had to wear masks for much of my work I have a hard time understanding why some people object to it so strongly
Is the mandate part?
(Yes, I agree that putting a mask on to walk to your table at a restaurant is pretty stupid, but at minimum it can be considered to a courtesy to the restaurant host, who is being exposed to countless strangers in any given shift of work.)
(Yes, I agree that putting a mask on to walk to your table at a restaurant is pretty stupid, but at minimum it can be considered to a courtesy to the restaurant host, who is being exposed to countless strangers in any given shift of work.)
But if we’re going to yell “trust the science!” we need to trust that science says the risk is sustained contact for ~15 minutes. Not brief incidental contact like one has with a restaurant host.
All of those things sound great, but can we just stop mask mandates? That's all I really care about in the end.
Can you explain why masks are such a key issue for you?
As someone who’s had to wear masks for much of my work I have a hard time understanding why some people object to it so strongly
Is the mandate part?
I've been reading this thread for awhile and I suddenly hada whole viewpoint shiftit.
Life never goes "back to normal" It keeps changing. Another "back to normal" could be lots of drunk driving, I remember those days. There may be people who miss them. I don't. Oh, and shall we go "back to normal" where the normal was scarlet fever (rheumatic fever) that caused life-long heart damage? Where measles caused life-long complications? Where Rubella meant the possibility of a child with birth defects (Agatha Christie wrote a murder mystery based on this, it was a real issue).
I'd like new normals. Normals where people who are sick can stay home from work without pressure instead of being forced germ vectors. Normals where people working hourly jobs don't get dinged for taking time for health care (like getting vaccinated for something). Normals where people respect social norms and boundaries instead of complaining about them.
And let's also remember that for a lot of people on this globe, life will never "go back to normal" because they died, or someone close to them died, or they or someone close to them has long term health consequences. I've heard horror stories from social workers here in Ontario of families devastated by Covid. The Spanish Flu caused long term consequences for my family, things did not and could not go "back to normal" for them.
"Back to normal" is a pipe dream.
All of those things sound great, but can we just stop mask mandates? That's all I really care about in the end.
I've been reading this thread for awhile and I suddenly hada whole viewpoint shiftit.
Life never goes "back to normal" It keeps changing. Another "back to normal" could be lots of drunk driving, I remember those days. There may be people who miss them. I don't. Oh, and shall we go "back to normal" where the normal was scarlet fever (rheumatic fever) that caused life-long heart damage? Where measles caused life-long complications? Where Rubella meant the possibility of a child with birth defects (Agatha Christie wrote a murder mystery based on this, it was a real issue).
I'd like new normals. Normals where people who are sick can stay home from work without pressure instead of being forced germ vectors. Normals where people working hourly jobs don't get dinged for taking time for health care (like getting vaccinated for something). Normals where people respect social norms and boundaries instead of complaining about them.
And let's also remember that for a lot of people on this globe, life will never "go back to normal" because they died, or someone close to them died, or they or someone close to them has long term health consequences. I've heard horror stories from social workers here in Ontario of families devastated by Covid. The Spanish Flu caused long term consequences for my family, things did not and could not go "back to normal" for them.
"Back to normal" is a pipe dream.
All of those things sound great, but can we just stop mask mandates? That's all I really care about in the end.
Why? Masks are so not a big deal, and seem like common courtesy. Other people don’t need your germs.
Really, it seems like people can go back to any version of normal that they want - you can travel and go to the movies and restaurants and parties and concerts if you want to. Why not wear a mask in the grocery store in case someone there *is* elderly or immunocompromised or just unlucky.
I think that some people have never worn anything slightly uncomfortable before.
I've been reading this thread for awhile and I suddenly hada whole viewpoint shiftit.
Life never goes "back to normal" It keeps changing. Another "back to normal" could be lots of drunk driving, I remember those days. There may be people who miss them. I don't. Oh, and shall we go "back to normal" where the normal was scarlet fever (rheumatic fever) that caused life-long heart damage? Where measles caused life-long complications? Where Rubella meant the possibility of a child with birth defects (Agatha Christie wrote a murder mystery based on this, it was a real issue).
I'd like new normals. Normals where people who are sick can stay home from work without pressure instead of being forced germ vectors. Normals where people working hourly jobs don't get dinged for taking time for health care (like getting vaccinated for something). Normals where people respect social norms and boundaries instead of complaining about them.
And let's also remember that for a lot of people on this globe, life will never "go back to normal" because they died, or someone close to them died, or they or someone close to them has long term health consequences. I've heard horror stories from social workers here in Ontario of families devastated by Covid. The Spanish Flu caused long term consequences for my family, things did not and could not go "back to normal" for them.
"Back to normal" is a pipe dream.
All of those things sound great, but can we just stop mask mandates? That's all I really care about in the end.
Why? Masks are so not a big deal, and seem like common courtesy. Other people don’t need your germs.
Really, it seems like people can go back to any version of normal that they want - you can travel and go to the movies and restaurants and parties and concerts if you want to. Why not wear a mask in the grocery store in case someone there *is* elderly or immunocompromised or just unlucky.
I think that some people have never worn anything slightly uncomfortable before.
I agree with you. If you're making the decision to uncover your face to eat in a restaurant, there's little point in masking between the door and your table.
I agree. It's dumb, and it's one of the counterproductive, 100% performative things.
I've been reading this thread for awhile and I suddenly hada whole viewpoint shiftit.
Life never goes "back to normal" It keeps changing. Another "back to normal" could be lots of drunk driving, I remember those days. There may be people who miss them. I don't. Oh, and shall we go "back to normal" where the normal was scarlet fever (rheumatic fever) that caused life-long heart damage? Where measles caused life-long complications? Where Rubella meant the possibility of a child with birth defects (Agatha Christie wrote a murder mystery based on this, it was a real issue).
I'd like new normals. Normals where people who are sick can stay home from work without pressure instead of being forced germ vectors. Normals where people working hourly jobs don't get dinged for taking time for health care (like getting vaccinated for something). Normals where people respect social norms and boundaries instead of complaining about them.
And let's also remember that for a lot of people on this globe, life will never "go back to normal" because they died, or someone close to them died, or they or someone close to them has long term health consequences. I've heard horror stories from social workers here in Ontario of families devastated by Covid. The Spanish Flu caused long term consequences for my family, things did not and could not go "back to normal" for them.
"Back to normal" is a pipe dream.
All of those things sound great, but can we just stop mask mandates? That's all I really care about in the end.
Why? Masks are so not a big deal, and seem like common courtesy. Other people don’t need your germs.
Really, it seems like people can go back to any version of normal that they want - you can travel and go to the movies and restaurants and parties and concerts if you want to. Why not wear a mask in the grocery store in case someone there *is* elderly or immunocompromised or just unlucky.
I think that some people have never worn anything slightly uncomfortable before.
Will it ever end? Here in New Mexico we've had a mask mandate almost continuously for the whole pandemic. At what point will enough people be vaccinated or acquire natural immunity that we can stop the charade? Wear a mask into a restaurant and then leave it off for an hour while you eat your meal. Then put it back on for 20 seconds to walk outside. Or have two people sitting in an office with masks on for an hour talking to each other. 3 feet apart, 6 feet apart, it doesn't make a difference. It's bullshit and we all know it.
Life is back to normal for me. I'm glad that I work for myself now so I don't have to worry about all this BS.
I agree with you. If you're making the decision to uncover your face to eat in a restaurant, there's little point in masking between the door and your table.
I agree. It's dumb, and it's one of the counterproductive, 100% performative things.
Whoa, this is actually something I disagree with based on my understanding of how contracting the disease actually works. Any amount of time you have a mask on (purportedly) reduces the amount of virus that can accumulate in your upper respiratory system and to the degree you can keep it 10, or 1000 or 10000 less particles that can accumulate because you wore your mask for a few minutes more here and there in a condensed period of time, then you might have actually made the difference in where enough have accumulated to actually cause you to get the disease and possibly spread to others no?
I am not being performative when I do this, I really am under the impression it's possible I'm preventing a critical mass from accumulating. Every hour counts! For instance, a 6 how business meeting in masks but 1 hour not wearing masks, as mentioned above??? Even if you were exposed you've prevented potentially a lot of accumulation by wearing a mask for over 80% of the time!
I'd really like to know the answer to this because I have to spend almost 12 hours masked (counting public transit time on both sides, airport and airplane time) to visit family next week and there's no way I'll be able to keep my mask on 100 percent of that time without ever taking a drink or having a little nourishment. And you're telling me if I remove my mask to drink some water and eat some food in that 12 hours I've just wasted my other 11.5 or more hours of being masked (and I'm just being performative?)? That does not sound right to me, but I do honestly welcome a correction if it's demonstrable that I am wrong.
I plan to minimize the time I'm without mask since I'll be seeing my elderly FIL and an unvaccinated 3 year old niece, but if I'm wrong, I may as well keep the mask off longer than it takes to shovel a little food and water down my gullet since I can increase my own comfort without changing my COVID risk.
ETA: Just for clarity's sake ...I realize I only quoted posts that refer specifically to restaurants, but my post is largely in response to the discussion in these posts and the others above that also discussed performative masking in other and broader contexts. I'm on my phone and more detailed quoting is being me ATM
Quick question regarding hospitals being overwhelmed.Death panels!
Who/what determines the order of triage when there aren't enough beds for everyone? And can it be changed with legislation?
I think any social bandaid yanking needs to be coupled with a very clear policy that the voluntarily unvaccinated are at the back of the line for care. Like, waiting in the parking lot until there's a bed and the docs and nurses have finished a nice long coffee break back of the line.
I agree with you. If you're making the decision to uncover your face to eat in a restaurant, there's little point in masking between the door and your table.
I agree. It's dumb, and it's one of the counterproductive, 100% performative things.
Whoa, this is actually something I disagree with based on my understanding of how contracting the disease actually works. Any amount of time you have a mask on (purportedly) reduces the amount of virus that can accumulate in your upper respiratory system and to the degree you can keep it 10, or 1000 or 10000 less particles that can accumulate because you wore your mask for a few minutes more here and there in a condensed period of time, then you might have actually made the difference in where enough have accumulated to actually cause you to get the disease and possibly spread to others no?
I am not being performative when I do this, I really am under the impression it's possible I'm preventing a critical mass from accumulating. Every hour counts! For instance, a 6 how business meeting in masks but 1 hour not wearing masks, as mentioned above??? Even if you were exposed you've prevented potentially a lot of accumulation by wearing a mask for over 80% of the time!
I'd really like to know the answer to this because I have to spend almost 12 hours masked (counting public transit time on both sides, airport and airplane time) to visit family next week and there's no way I'll be able to keep my mask on 100 percent of that time without ever taking a drink or having a little nourishment. And you're telling me if I remove my mask to drink some water and eat some food in that 12 hours I've just wasted my other 11.5 or more hours of being masked (and I'm just being performative?)? That does not sound right to me, but I do honestly welcome a correction if it's demonstrable that I am wrong.
I plan to minimize the time I'm without mask since I'll be seeing my elderly FIL and an unvaccinated 3 year old niece, but if I'm wrong, I may as well keep the mask off longer than it takes to shovel a little food and water down my gullet since I can increase my own comfort without changing my COVID risk.
ETA: Just for clarity's sake ...I realize I only quoted posts that refer specifically to restaurants, but my post is largely in response to the discussion in these posts and the others above that also discussed performative masking in other and broader contexts. I'm on my phone and more detailed quoting is being me ATM
If you'd bothered to quote the rest of my post, I explained that I considered restaurants to be an exception because those places are optional (unlike grocery stores, medical clinics, schools, etc).
If you're eating in a restaurant, you've made the choice to have your face uncovered for at least the time when you're eating. Researchers have already studied previous restaurant-associated viral outbreaks to demonstrate that table-to-table transmission can occur and is largely a function of 1) the amount of virus shed by a sick diner and 2) the airflow pattern in the restaurant. Neither of those are controllable by the average diner; it's the risk they take. COVID is highly contagious and can be transmitted very quickly, even through casual contact. Those who dine in restaurants are accepting that risk of exposure.
Regarding plane travel: there's a reason why I refuse to travel by plane unless absolutely necessary. Once you've arrived at your destination, I strongly recommend masking around anyone immunocompromised until you receive a negative test result.
Quick question regarding hospitals being overwhelmed.
Who/what determines the order of triage when there aren't enough beds for everyone? And can it be changed with legislation?
Quick question regarding hospitals being overwhelmed.Death panels!
Who/what determines the order of triage when there aren't enough beds for everyone? And can it be changed with legislation?
I think any social bandaid yanking needs to be coupled with a very clear policy that the voluntarily unvaccinated are at the back of the line for care. Like, waiting in the parking lot until there's a bed and the docs and nurses have finished a nice long coffee break back of the line.
I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
@nereo Good to know. Seems like we might need to update the triage protocols for voluntarily assumed and anti-social risk, in the same way that the alcoholic should be at the back of the line for a liver transplant.I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
@nereo Good to know. Seems like we might need to update the triage protocols for voluntarily assumed and anti-social risk, in the same way that the alcoholic should be at the back of the line for a liver transplant.I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
Yes, I adamantly disagree on this point. American is a representative republic, not a technocracy. Experts are just as human as the rest of us and have their biases and agendas. Fauci lied repeatedly about funding the research that almost certainly led to the release of this pandemic into the world. Why should he get to decide how we get to live our lives? I'm thankful to not live in a dictatorship like China, or a quasi-dictatorship like Australia, where the federal government can restrict my movements, or right to free speech, or arbitrarily shut down my business.
@nereo Good to know. Seems like we might need to update the triage protocols for voluntarily assumed and anti-social risk, in the same way that the alcoholic should be at the back of the line for a liver transplant.I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
Yes, I adamantly disagree on this point. American is a representative republic, not a technocracy. Experts are just as human as the rest of us and have their biases and agendas. Fauci lied repeatedly about funding the research that almost certainly led to the release of this pandemic into the world. Why should he get to decide how we get to live our lives? I'm thankful to not live in a dictatorship like China, or a quasi-dictatorship like Australia, where the federal government can restrict my movements, or right to free speech, or arbitrarily shut down my business.
If everyone's opinion is equal, what's the point in becoming an expert in anything, or encouraging others to become experts? Why bother?
@nereo Good to know. Seems like we might need to update the triage protocols for voluntarily assumed and anti-social risk, in the same way that the alcoholic should be at the back of the line for a liver transplant.I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
Yes, I adamantly disagree on this point. American is a representative republic, not a technocracy. Experts are just as human as the rest of us and have their biases and agendas. Fauci lied repeatedly about funding the research that almost certainly led to the release of this pandemic into the world. Why should he get to decide how we get to live our lives? I'm thankful to not live in a dictatorship like China, or a quasi-dictatorship like Australia, where the federal government can restrict my movements, or right to free speech, or arbitrarily shut down my business.
If everyone's opinion is equal, what's the point in becoming an expert in anything, or encouraging others to become experts? Why bother?
It used to be that the expert was an expert in a certain subject matter, but elected officials’ jobs were to take the experts’ advice and then balance that with all other factors to make decisions. Not to just cede all control to them.
Sorry, but Australia IS NOT a quasi-dictatorship. Last I saw, we were a FULL DEMOCRACY rather than a FLAWED DEMOCRACY or a HYBRID REGIME or and AUTHORITARIAN regime. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index for the democracy index. Part of the requirement of a full democracy, in my opinion is valuing your fellow citizens. Democracies vote for their government, and the ones whose candidates don't for government accept that this has happened and accept the laws that the government passes, no matter whether they disagree. Their candidates may argue in parliament about proposed laws, and compromises may be made. The next time, their candidates may form government, and change the laws. Obviously, some people in this forum who live in FLAWED DEMOCRACIES are not familiar with the need to value your fellow citizens.@nereo Good to know. Seems like we might need to update the triage protocols for voluntarily assumed and anti-social risk, in the same way that the alcoholic should be at the back of the line for a liver transplant.I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
Yes, I adamantly disagree on this point. American is a representative republic, not a technocracy. Experts are just as human as the rest of us and have their biases and agendas. Fauci lied repeatedly about funding the research that almost certainly led to the release of this pandemic into the world. Why should he get to decide how we get to live our lives? I'm thankful to not live in a dictatorship like China, or a quasi-dictatorship like Australia, where the federal government can restrict my movements, or right to free speech, or arbitrarily shut down my business.
@nereo Good to know. Seems like we might need to update the triage protocols for voluntarily assumed and anti-social risk, in the same way that the alcoholic should be at the back of the line for a liver transplant.I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
Yes, I adamantly disagree on this point. American is a representative republic, not a technocracy. Experts are just as human as the rest of us and have their biases and agendas. Fauci lied repeatedly about funding the research that almost certainly led to the release of this pandemic into the world. Why should he get to decide how we get to live our lives? I'm thankful to not live in a dictatorship like China, or a quasi-dictatorship like Australia, where the federal government can restrict my movements, or right to free speech, or arbitrarily shut down my business.
If everyone's opinion is equal, what's the point in becoming an expert in anything, or encouraging others to become experts? Why bother?
It used to be that the expert was an expert in a certain subject matter, but elected officials’ jobs were to take the experts’ advice and then balance that with all other factors to make decisions. Not to just cede all control to them.
What I see in too many politicians (take my Premier - please) is that business interests far outweigh the advice from other expert sources. Not a lot of balancing of various factors there.
@nereo Good to know. Seems like we might need to update the triage protocols for voluntarily assumed and anti-social risk, in the same way that the alcoholic should be at the back of the line for a liver transplant.I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
Yes, I adamantly disagree on this point. American is a representative republic, not a technocracy. Experts are just as human as the rest of us and have their biases and agendas. Fauci lied repeatedly about funding the research that almost certainly led to the release of this pandemic into the world. Why should he get to decide how we get to live our lives? I'm thankful to not live in a dictatorship like China, or a quasi-dictatorship like Australia, where the federal government can restrict my movements, or right to free speech, or arbitrarily shut down my business.
If everyone's opinion is equal, what's the point in becoming an expert in anything, or encouraging others to become experts? Why bother?
It used to be that the expert was an expert in a certain subject matter, but elected officials’ jobs were to take the experts’ advice and then balance that with all other factors to make decisions. Not to just cede all control to them.
What I see in too many politicians (take my Premier - please) is that business interests far outweigh the advice from other expert sources. Not a lot of balancing of various factors there.
@nereo Good to know. Seems like we might need to update the triage protocols for voluntarily assumed and anti-social risk, in the same way that the alcoholic should be at the back of the line for a liver transplant.I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
Yes, I adamantly disagree on this point. American is a representative republic, not a technocracy. Experts are just as human as the rest of us and have their biases and agendas. Fauci lied repeatedly about funding the research that almost certainly led to the release of this pandemic into the world. Why should he get to decide how we get to live our lives? I'm thankful to not live in a dictatorship like China, or a quasi-dictatorship like Australia, where the federal government can restrict my movements, or right to free speech, or arbitrarily shut down my business.
If everyone's opinion is equal, what's the point in becoming an expert in anything, or encouraging others to become experts? Why bother?
It used to be that the expert was an expert in a certain subject matter, but elected officials’ jobs were to take the experts’ advice and then balance that with all other factors to make decisions. Not to just cede all control to them.
What I see in too many politicians (take my Premier - please) is that business interests far outweigh the advice from other expert sources. Not a lot of balancing of various factors there.
But the weighting of competing interests from experts will always have a moral component. How many people in Madagascar are you willing to let starve to death due to climate change in exchange for a more gradual ramp up in carbon taxes? How much are you willing to let consumer goods inflate in price to save another human on the planet be they Canadian of Madagascan? The answer to that question is not purely technical in nature. It is not even purely moral in nature because politicians function in the realm of realpolitik.
What I see in too many politicians (take my Premier - please) is that business interests far outweigh the advice from other expert sources. Not a lot of balancing of various factors there.
But the weighting of competing interests from experts will always have a moral component. How many people in Madagascar are you willing to let starve to death due to climate change in exchange for a more gradual ramp up in carbon taxes? How much are you willing to let consumer goods inflate in price to save another human on the planet be they Canadian of Madagascan? The answer to that question is not purely technical in nature. It is not even purely moral in nature because politicians function in the realm of realpolitik.
Of course it will have a moral component. But weren't we talking about Covid? Where the discussion only concerns people who are living in those politicians' jurisdictions? What I do has no effect on someone living in Madagascar (or only very indirectly). What I do directly affects how busy/overwhelmed medical care is, how well my fellow citizens do, how fast each variant spreads. What my mayor and premier do directly affects everyone in my city and province. And there has been quite a bit of support for businesses and people whose jobs have been affected, they haven't been forgotten.
What I see in too many politicians (take my Premier - please) is that business interests far outweigh the advice from other expert sources. Not a lot of balancing of various factors there.
But the weighting of competing interests from experts will always have a moral component. How many people in Madagascar are you willing to let starve to death due to climate change in exchange for a more gradual ramp up in carbon taxes? How much are you willing to let consumer goods inflate in price to save another human on the planet be they Canadian of Madagascan? The answer to that question is not purely technical in nature. It is not even purely moral in nature because politicians function in the realm of realpolitik.
Of course it will have a moral component. But weren't we talking about Covid? Where the discussion only concerns people who are living in those politicians' jurisdictions? What I do has no effect on someone living in Madagascar (or only very indirectly). What I do directly affects how busy/overwhelmed medical care is, how well my fellow citizens do, how fast each variant spreads. What my mayor and premier do directly affects everyone in my city and province. And there has been quite a bit of support for businesses and people whose jobs have been affected, they haven't been forgotten.
Maybe, I thought we were talking about politicians having to weigh expert advice. But since we are only talking about COVID, did the WHO say to keep your border open and then Canada locked it down tight? What was that about? I can't think that that the business experts thought that it was a good idea. Was that just pure political theater?
Sorry, but Australia IS NOT a quasi-dictatorship. Last I saw, we were a FULL DEMOCRACY rather than a FLAWED DEMOCRACY or a HYBRID REGIME or and AUTHORITARIAN regime. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index for the democracy index. Part of the requirement of a full democracy, in my opinion is valuing your fellow citizens. Democracies vote for their government, and the ones whose candidates don't for government accept that this has happened and accept the laws that the government passes, no matter whether they disagree. Their candidates may argue in parliament about proposed laws, and compromises may be made. The next time, their candidates may form government, and change the laws. Obviously, some people in this forum who live in FLAWED DEMOCRACIES are not familiar with the need to value your fellow citizens.@nereo Good to know. Seems like we might need to update the triage protocols for voluntarily assumed and anti-social risk, in the same way that the alcoholic should be at the back of the line for a liver transplant.I'd hope (foolishly of course) that we could take some of the heat out of this debate if we could all be a lot clearer on what anti-covid measures were actually for.
I don't think the United States agrees in the slightest whether there is any mutual obligation to one another at all.
If there is obligation, we disagree about its extent.
If we were to agree on the extent, we disagree about whether the government should enforce it.
And if the government should enforce it, whether that enforcement should be state or federal.
Our current reality would be much different if we agreed that (1) we have basic mutual obligations, (2) expert knowledge is an accepted way of articulating the best way to implement those obligations, and (3) the federal government should use the force of law to require the behaviors that experts think best respects our mutual obligations.
But we agree on none of those points, and so we just keep muddling through.
Yes, I adamantly disagree on this point. American is a representative republic, not a technocracy. Experts are just as human as the rest of us and have their biases and agendas. Fauci lied repeatedly about funding the research that almost certainly led to the release of this pandemic into the world. Why should he get to decide how we get to live our lives? I'm thankful to not live in a dictatorship like China, or a quasi-dictatorship like Australia, where the federal government can restrict my movements, or right to free speech, or arbitrarily shut down my business.
The WHO does not have jurisdiction over us, it gives advice. And we thought they were being too lax.
And, well, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but given the relative rates of infection in the US and Canada at the time (and hell, now as well), most of us were delighted to see the borders shut down. And since so many Americans seem to take pleasure in evading controls by having false vaccination certificates, I hope they scrutinize each and every one to make sure their vaccination paperwork is valid. Because we know we will get all the strains anyway, the point is to slow them down. And tourists get around.
BTW, we opened out borders to the US before the US opened their borders to us. Governors of Northern States have been upset for ages because people could fly across the border but not drive across the border. So lots of political business decisions there as well, I am sure.
The WHO does not have jurisdiction over us, it gives advice. And we thought they were being too lax.
And, well, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but given the relative rates of infection in the US and Canada at the time (and hell, now as well), most of us were delighted to see the borders shut down. And since so many Americans seem to take pleasure in evading controls by having false vaccination certificates, I hope they scrutinize each and every one to make sure their vaccination paperwork is valid. Because we know we will get all the strains anyway, the point is to slow them down. And tourists get around.
BTW, we opened out borders to the US before the US opened their borders to us. Governors of Northern States have been upset for ages because people could fly across the border but not drive across the border. So lots of political business decisions there as well, I am sure.
Indeed, elected officials weighted expert advice from multiple sources while also taking into account the will of the people. Because ultimately in a democracy (even a representative one) the only thing that matters is the people that vote for you. "Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill
BTW, to the best of my knowledge the UK kept its borders open with both of us for the entire pandemic but Canada did not reciprocate.
And I am grumpy because I am not seeing my DD and SiL and Grand-daughter for Christmas, because of Covid. Because Canadians are being encouraged to self-isolate as much as possible, and I think that is sensible.
So go back to discussing Covid.
I wish we were in lockdown.
I wish we were in lockdown.
Good news! You can be!
But don’t force it on the rest of us.
I wish we were in lockdown.
Good news! You can be!
But don’t force it on the rest of us.
…and therein lies the problem. If even a large minority don’t, it doesn’t work on a community level.
American is a representative republic, not a technocracy.
I wish we were in lockdown.
Good news! You can be!
But don’t force it on the rest of us.
American is a representative republic, not a technocracy.
Why do you see this as an inherent contradiction? I could easily envision a representative democracy where the majority of voters recognize and revere the work that our most learned citizens have put into becoming experts in their field, where the voters see politicians implementing policy heavily informed by the latest research and say "more of this please." The fact that this doesn't describe our population is not something to be proud of.
American is a representative republic, not a technocracy.
Why do you see this as an inherent contradiction? I could easily envision a representative democracy where the majority of voters recognize and revere the work that our most learned citizens have put into becoming experts in their field, where the voters see politicians implementing policy heavily informed by the latest research and say "more of this please." The fact that this doesn't describe our population is not something to be proud of.
American is a representative republic, not a technocracy.
Why do you see this as an inherent contradiction? I could easily envision a representative democracy where the majority of voters recognize and revere the work that our most learned citizens have put into becoming experts in their field, where the voters see politicians implementing policy heavily informed by the latest research and say "more of this please." The fact that this doesn't describe our population is not something to be proud of.
What's the opposite of a technocracy? I think that we might have that. But I don't know if it helps the COVID situation if your healthcare technocrats are pushing lockdowns and your economic technocrats are pushing to keep the economy open and pointing out that old sick people don't add much to the economy. You still need a human to make a judgement call that is based on human things not technocracy.
I wish we were in lockdown.
Good news! You can be!
But don’t force it on the rest of us.
…and therein lies the problem. If even a large minority don’t, it doesn’t work on a community level.
All of those things sound great, but can we just stop mask mandates? That's all I really care about in the end.
Can you explain why masks are such a key issue for you?
As someone who’s had to wear masks for much of my work I have a hard time understanding why some people object to it so strongly
Is the mandate part?
It's the mandate part. I should not have to pretend that I am sick for the rest of my life wearing a mask while in public places in the offchance I am asymptomatic a virus that we an effective vaccine for. It just does not make sense anymore... it did for a short time, but no longer. I'm all for wearing a mask, staying home from work when you are actually sick... that would be a great thing to come out of this. But telling everyone to wear a mask from here on out regardless of if it's actually useful is dumb and the mandates have got to go. Especially as pointed out above, restaurants and airplanes are proof that we really don't care as much as some people seem to think we do.
Actually it does. You can lock yourself down and get 100% safety. Same as abstinence!
You know, as your next-door neighbor this is scary. When this is how your politicians think, it doesn't bode well for how you treat other countries, and how well you adhere to treaties. Hey everyone, my next door country is a narcissistic sociopath!
Sorry*, but you said it.
*Of course I said I'm sorry, I'm Canadian and I mean it.
Most here operate on the assumption that we in the US do a lot to protect others, and bear tremendous cost due to that.
Most here operate on the assumption that we in the US do a lot to protect others, and bear tremendous cost due to that.
Is this Actually a commonly held belief? It seems to me that we very intentionally do much less than most other wealthy nations, and it’s a frequent flash point in discussions about whether we should be more like these other questions.
It's rather disheartening to know that we are surrounded by such an incredible amount of idiocy.
I'm very confused by this as an American. Is this sarcasm? Or are you basing this differently than how I would? I would frame it in terms of a relative comparison to other similarly wealthy countries' overall infrastructure and social programs incl. healthcare as provided by a central institution (e.g. federal government) and would say of that group we've got to be near the bottom. Granted, being at the bottom in a wealthy country comparison group can still have very positive connotations and I certainly would not argue that more gov spending is always a good thing. If you're talking from an absolute point of view or a "we police the world and thus are protecting others" vantage, perhaps we're just using very different definitions.Most here operate on the assumption that we in the US do a lot to protect others, and bear tremendous cost due to that.
Is this Actually a commonly held belief? It seems to me that we very intentionally do much less than most other wealthy nations, and it’s a frequent flash point in discussions about whether we should be more like these other questions.
I think so. However little (compared to other wealthy nations) we do, it's a lot. Get your shit together, and stop being sick, poor, or old.
When taken early, Pfizer's treatment was 89% effective at reducing the risk of severe illness, hospitalization and/or death from COVID-19, according to the company.
Why hasn't the US deployed the military to help with hospital shortages? Almost all military enlisted personnel are in the very low risk category, and they are required to have been vaccinated. The chance they die of COVID is about as close to zero as you can get. Imagine, ~50,000 soldiers doing intake, moving patients, transporting patients, doing testing, providing basic services, doing paperwork, etc... Plus military doctors and nurses helping do the hard work. I mean, we spend $700BLN a year, you would think we could use a fraction of that to dramatically increase the staff at our hospitals.
Assuming this is correct, the end could be near as we have a non-vaccine method of treatment:QuoteWhen taken early, Pfizer's treatment was 89% effective at reducing the risk of severe illness, hospitalization and/or death from COVID-19, according to the company.
Assuming this is correct, the end could be near as we have a non-vaccine method of treatment:QuoteWhen taken early, Pfizer's treatment was 89% effective at reducing the risk of severe illness, hospitalization and/or death from COVID-19, according to the company.
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines were higher than that last year, weren't they?
Assuming this is correct, the end could be near as we have a non-vaccine method of treatment:QuoteWhen taken early, Pfizer's treatment was 89% effective at reducing the risk of severe illness, hospitalization and/or death from COVID-19, according to the company.
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines were higher than that last year, weren't they?
Yeah, 95%. But the Pfizer pill is supposedly just as effective against omicron.
Assuming this is correct, the end could be near as we have a non-vaccine method of treatment:QuoteWhen taken early, Pfizer's treatment was 89% effective at reducing the risk of severe illness, hospitalization and/or death from COVID-19, according to the company.
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines were higher than that last year, weren't they?
Yeah, 95%. But the Pfizer pill is supposedly just as effective against omicron.
The above is talking about Pfizer’s new medicine meant to treat after infection.
To state the obvious, though, we have absolutely zero data on how effective current vaccines are in combating omicron six months later, or how it will do against the next variant of concern.
It's rather disheartening to know that we are surrounded by such an incredible amount of idiocy.
I took a science class at community college 50 years ago, so you can trust me.
What about actual scientists who finished their degrees?
They are lying!!!! All of them!
It's rather disheartening to know that we are surrounded by such an incredible amount of idiocy.
A bit of a tangent, but I had a fairly long conversation at a grocery store bike rack with a dyed-in-the-wool Qanon conspiracy theory nut. The conversation started innocuously enough, about biking around town and my e-bike, but he started spouting more and more nonsense. I could have walked away at any point, but I actually was kind of interested to see what was going to come out of his mouth next, because it was mind-boggling to me that he really believed this stuff. Among the gems:
- COVID-19 is nothing more than the common cold, go to this website and the numbers won't add up
- The internet news is all fake. You need to go to this website where the real stories get posted before "the algorithms" take them down and post the fake stuff.
- Donald Trump is an all-powerful businessman who will have you killed if you wrong him
...which led to
- Bill Gates is dead (convicted, tried, and executed at Guantanamo Bay)
- Bill, Hillary, and Chelsea Clinton are all dead
- George W Bush and Dick Cheney are currently in the middle of their trial at Guantanamo for orchestrating the 9-11 attacks
- Joe Biden is in a coma
- All of the above people have been replaced by Hollywood lookalikes who train on their various mannerisms to fool the fake news media
- At some point he started on a tangent about "these pedophiles..." but caught himself and then went in another direction (I believe the Clintons were next on his hit list)
This dude was evangelizing, straight up. He claimed that he was a science major in college (50 years ago) so he was trustworthy on these sorts of matters.
I also let a lady "talk at me" for about an hour just to see how her brain worked. Wow. Much the same gems as above, plus apparently Trudeau has also been replaced by an actor, more vaccinated people have died than non, it's the vaccinated folks that are taking up all the hospital beds, and this will all come to a head in 2030 when the new world order takes over. When I pressed her as to who "THEY" (the ones doing all this) were...she said, "Well, they're not exactly human". I would not want to live in her world.
But as the rising case numbers also demonstrate, quite possibly not for that much longer.I also let a lady "talk at me" for about an hour just to see how her brain worked. Wow. Much the same gems as above, plus apparently Trudeau has also been replaced by an actor, more vaccinated people have died than non, it's the vaccinated folks that are taking up all the hospital beds, and this will all come to a head in 2030 when the new world order takes over. When I pressed her as to who "THEY" (the ones doing all this) were...she said, "Well, they're not exactly human". I would not want to live in her world.
I've heard the same things about how more vaccinated people have died than non-vaccinated people, although it went a step further. For example, my mom's coworker refuses to be vaccinated because he claims that the vaccine killed three of his relatives, whereas he doesn't know anyone who died of COVID.
Unfortunately, we all have to live in their world, as the rising case numbers demonstrate.
Honestly, the one requirement I *do* want maintained at this point is masking in places like the grocery store, drugstore, medical settings and public buildings.
Beyond that, if you want to go to a crowded indoor event, that’s on you.
Bless his heart. (because there is no brain present to bless).
Bless his heart. (because there is no brain present to bless).
I had a friend - wicked smart and educated. There wasn't a conspiracy theory he didn't like.
(Please don't feel like I'm going extra mile to contradict everything you say! I actually agree with you, like, 99%)
We're feeling intense family pressure to "get back to normal" regarding indoor Christmas gatherings. The accusation -- which has been leveled at us repeatedly -- is that we don't want to see them. But my brilliant young adult son just pointed out that if these people in the family prioritized the ability to see us over everything else (conspiracy theories and woo, mostly), they would be willing to get vaccinated. And really, why should their "right" to not have "poison" injected into their bodies outweigh my "right" not to contract Covid in my own home and possibly get long Covid?
I mean seriously, what do you do when you have a close relative who believes the lunar landings were faked and the world is flat? Or that cannabis cures cancer but the government won't approve it because the health care industry will lose money? That condensation trails are really government produced chemtrails designed to poison us and make money once again for the health care industry? Oh, and that vitamin C IVs cure Covid (which they didn't believe was real until they got it) and essential oils can disinfect everything and we'll be safe from Covid? Plus so many more -- all in one person?
I mean, this person isn't the only one -- both sides of the family are full of Covid deniers, election deniers, birthers, etc. We're actually lucky that my dad moved across the country, or the holiday pressure would be high despite his refusal to get vaccinated. But then I'm good at boundaries and at calling him on his bullshit, at least when he tries to make me believe it. I've gotten very good at saying "I disagree", or "the science doesn't support that".
We're feeling intense family pressure to "get back to normal" regarding indoor Christmas gatherings. The accusation -- which has been leveled at us repeatedly -- is that we don't want to see them. But my brilliant young adult son just pointed out that if these people in the family prioritized the ability to see us over everything else (conspiracy theories and woo, mostly), they would be willing to get vaccinated. And really, why should their "right" to not have "poison" injected into their bodies outweigh my "right" not to contract Covid in my own home and possibly get long Covid?
I mean seriously, what do you do when you have a close relative who believes the lunar landings were faked and the world is flat? Or that cannabis cures cancer but the government won't approve it because the health care industry will lose money? That condensation trails are really government produced chemtrails designed to poison us and make money once again for the health care industry? Oh, and that vitamin C IVs cure Covid (which they didn't believe was real until they got it) and essential oils can disinfect everything and we'll be safe from Covid? Plus so many more -- all in one person?
I mean, this person isn't the only one -- both sides of the family are full of Covid deniers, election deniers, birthers, etc. We're actually lucky that my dad moved across the country, or the holiday pressure would be high despite his refusal to get vaccinated. But then I'm good at boundaries and at calling him on his bullshit, at least when he tries to make me believe it. I've gotten very good at saying "I disagree", or "the science doesn't support that".
I mean, if you're vaccinated, why aren't you going? If everyone at the party were vaccinated, would that really make a difference? What other conclusion could your family possibly come to when the vaccinated people are too afraid to come to the party due to covid other than the vaccine is ineffective or you don't want to see them?
Maybe this has been asked and answered, but how far do you push asking people if they've been vaccinated? Case in point, I use a couple of different veterinarians. One of them has been faithfully following the protocol of clients staying in their cars, the (fully masked) staff runs the pets back and forth. The other is a different situation - I didn't visit during the early onset of the pandemic, but not long afterward they were allowing clients into the waiting room. Masking was hit and miss. Lo and behold, that practice had to shut down in August when Delta was raging. I haven't been back to them and I'm not sure I want to unless I know why they had their shutdown and if they have now changed their practices. Is it even legal to ask a small business about vax status?
Maybe this has been asked and answered, but how far do you push asking people if they've been vaccinated? Case in point, I use a couple of different veterinarians. One of them has been faithfully following the protocol of clients staying in their cars, the (fully masked) staff runs the pets back and forth. The other is a different situation - I didn't visit during the early onset of the pandemic, but not long afterward they were allowing clients into the waiting room. Masking was hit and miss. Lo and behold, that practice had to shut down in August when Delta was raging. I haven't been back to them and I'm not sure I want to unless I know why they had their shutdown and if they have now changed their practices. Is it even legal to ask a small business about vax status?
Ask. Of course that is legal. If they refuse to answer, you have your answer.
Maybe this has been asked and answered, but how far do you push asking people if they've been vaccinated? Case in point, I use a couple of different veterinarians. One of them has been faithfully following the protocol of clients staying in their cars, the (fully masked) staff runs the pets back and forth. The other is a different situation - I didn't visit during the early onset of the pandemic, but not long afterward they were allowing clients into the waiting room. Masking was hit and miss. Lo and behold, that practice had to shut down in August when Delta was raging. I haven't been back to them and I'm not sure I want to unless I know why they had their shutdown and if they have now changed their practices. Is it even legal to ask a small business about vax status?
Ask. Of course that is legal. If they refuse to answer, you have your answer.
You are free to ask, but I would bet that most businesses answer either "that's none of your business" or "we are in compliance will all OSHA requirements." My company HR department knows everyone's vaccination status. We don't hand it out to people who walk in the door asking for it.
We're feeling intense family pressure to "get back to normal" regarding indoor Christmas gatherings. The accusation -- which has been leveled at us repeatedly -- is that we don't want to see them. But my brilliant young adult son just pointed out that if these people in the family prioritized the ability to see us over everything else (conspiracy theories and woo, mostly), they would be willing to get vaccinated. And really, why should their "right" to not have "poison" injected into their bodies outweigh my "right" not to contract Covid in my own home and possibly get long Covid?
I mean seriously, what do you do when you have a close relative who believes the lunar landings were faked and the world is flat? Or that cannabis cures cancer but the government won't approve it because the health care industry will lose money? That condensation trails are really government produced chemtrails designed to poison us and make money once again for the health care industry? Oh, and that vitamin C IVs cure Covid (which they didn't believe was real until they got it) and essential oils can disinfect everything and we'll be safe from Covid? Plus so many more -- all in one person?
I mean, this person isn't the only one -- both sides of the family are full of Covid deniers, election deniers, birthers, etc. We're actually lucky that my dad moved across the country, or the holiday pressure would be high despite his refusal to get vaccinated. But then I'm good at boundaries and at calling him on his bullshit, at least when he tries to make me believe it. I've gotten very good at saying "I disagree", or "the science doesn't support that".
Is one of their theories that the vaccine doesn't work or isn't effective? Because in my opinion, your behavior is kind of confirming that. I mean, if you're vaccinated, why aren't you going? If everyone at the party were vaccinated, would that really make a difference? What other conclusion could your family possibly come to when the vaccinated people are too afraid to come to the party due to covid other than the vaccine is ineffective or you don't want to see them?
Maybe this has been asked and answered, but how far do you push asking people if they've been vaccinated? Case in point, I use a couple of different veterinarians. One of them has been faithfully following the protocol of clients staying in their cars, the (fully masked) staff runs the pets back and forth. The other is a different situation - I didn't visit during the early onset of the pandemic, but not long afterward they were allowing clients into the waiting room. Masking was hit and miss. Lo and behold, that practice had to shut down in August when Delta was raging. I haven't been back to them and I'm not sure I want to unless I know why they had their shutdown and if they have now changed their practices. Is it even legal to ask a small business about vax status?
Ask. Of course that is legal. If they refuse to answer, you have your answer.
You are free to ask, but I would bet that most businesses answer either "that's none of your business" or "we are in compliance will all OSHA requirements." My company HR department knows everyone's vaccination status. We don't hand it out to people who walk in the door asking for it.
We're feeling intense family pressure to "get back to normal" regarding indoor Christmas gatherings. The accusation -- which has been leveled at us repeatedly -- is that we don't want to see them. But my brilliant young adult son just pointed out that if these people in the family prioritized the ability to see us over everything else (conspiracy theories and woo, mostly), they would be willing to get vaccinated. And really, why should their "right" to not have "poison" injected into their bodies outweigh my "right" not to contract Covid in my own home and possibly get long Covid?
I mean seriously, what do you do when you have a close relative who believes the lunar landings were faked and the world is flat? Or that cannabis cures cancer but the government won't approve it because the health care industry will lose money? That condensation trails are really government produced chemtrails designed to poison us and make money once again for the health care industry? Oh, and that vitamin C IVs cure Covid (which they didn't believe was real until they got it) and essential oils can disinfect everything and we'll be safe from Covid? Plus so many more -- all in one person?
I mean, this person isn't the only one -- both sides of the family are full of Covid deniers, election deniers, birthers, etc. We're actually lucky that my dad moved across the country, or the holiday pressure would be high despite his refusal to get vaccinated. But then I'm good at boundaries and at calling him on his bullshit, at least when he tries to make me believe it. I've gotten very good at saying "I disagree", or "the science doesn't support that".
Is one of their theories that the vaccine doesn't work or isn't effective? Because in my opinion, your behavior is kind of confirming that. I mean, if you're vaccinated, why aren't you going? If everyone at the party were vaccinated, would that really make a difference? What other conclusion could your family possibly come to when the vaccinated people are too afraid to come to the party due to covid other than the vaccine is ineffective or you don't want to see them?
I mean, if you're vaccinated, why aren't you going? If everyone at the party were vaccinated, would that really make a difference? What other conclusion could your family possibly come to when the vaccinated people are too afraid to come to the party due to covid other than the vaccine is ineffective or you don't want to see them?
1. I think that K wrote that this was in reference to a private gathering in their home. They aren't going anywhere.
2. There's this little thing called conditional probability. Without going into a math lesson, the fact that three doses of Pfizer provides me with ~76% protection against Omicron SARS-COV-2 infection makes me a more inviting guest if your goal is not to get infected than a participant with zero doses.
Maybe this has been asked and answered, but how far do you push asking people if they've been vaccinated? Case in point, I use a couple of different veterinarians. One of them has been faithfully following the protocol of clients staying in their cars, the (fully masked) staff runs the pets back and forth. The other is a different situation - I didn't visit during the early onset of the pandemic, but not long afterward they were allowing clients into the waiting room. Masking was hit and miss. Lo and behold, that practice had to shut down in August when Delta was raging. I haven't been back to them and I'm not sure I want to unless I know why they had their shutdown and if they have now changed their practices. Is it even legal to ask a small business about vax status?
Ask. Of course that is legal. If they refuse to answer, you have your answer.
You are free to ask, but I would bet that most businesses answer either "that's none of your business" or "we are in compliance will all OSHA requirements." My company HR department knows everyone's vaccination status. We don't hand it out to people who walk in the door asking for it.
Businesses here that I would want to frequent readily tell their customers that they require employees to be vaccinated. Case in point, the hair salon I went to just three hours ago.
Maybe this has been asked and answered, but how far do you push asking people if they've been vaccinated? Case in point, I use a couple of different veterinarians. One of them has been faithfully following the protocol of clients staying in their cars, the (fully masked) staff runs the pets back and forth. The other is a different situation - I didn't visit during the early onset of the pandemic, but not long afterward they were allowing clients into the waiting room. Masking was hit and miss. Lo and behold, that practice had to shut down in August when Delta was raging. I haven't been back to them and I'm not sure I want to unless I know why they had their shutdown and if they have now changed their practices. Is it even legal to ask a small business about vax status?
Ask. Of course that is legal. If they refuse to answer, you have your answer.
You are free to ask, but I would bet that most businesses answer either "that's none of your business" or "we are in compliance will all OSHA requirements." My company HR department knows everyone's vaccination status. We don't hand it out to people who walk in the door asking for it.
Businesses here that I would want to frequent readily tell their customers that they require employees to be vaccinated. Case in point, the hair salon I went to just three hours ago.
I wonder if they are just saying that or if they just don't have any employees that have requested an exemption for a sincerely held religious belief (https://www.eeoc.gov/wysk/what-you-should-know-about-covid-19-and-ada-rehabilitation-act-and-other-eeo-laws#L). EDIT: or maybe they are actually willing to fight it in court as an undue hardship.
The only places I am going are places with vax policies.
The only places I am going are places with vax policies.
I get that, and you writings have added meaningful on-topic content to the thread. I'm wondering "aloud" how many businesses in the country that claim to have a "vax policy" are quietly accepting religious exceptions. Or just lying to their customers. I was at one such business the lied to my face yesterday, but not about vaccines.
We're feeling intense family pressure to "get back to normal" regarding indoor Christmas gatherings. The accusation -- which has been leveled at us repeatedly -- is that we don't want to see them. But my brilliant young adult son just pointed out that if these people in the family prioritized the ability to see us over everything else (conspiracy theories and woo, mostly), they would be willing to get vaccinated. And really, why should their "right" to not have "poison" injected into their bodies outweigh my "right" not to contract Covid in my own home and possibly get long Covid?
I mean seriously, what do you do when you have a close relative who believes the lunar landings were faked and the world is flat? Or that cannabis cures cancer but the government won't approve it because the health care industry will lose money? That condensation trails are really government produced chemtrails designed to poison us and make money once again for the health care industry? Oh, and that vitamin C IVs cure Covid (which they didn't believe was real until they got it) and essential oils can disinfect everything and we'll be safe from Covid? Plus so many more -- all in one person?
I mean, this person isn't the only one -- both sides of the family are full of Covid deniers, election deniers, birthers, etc. We're actually lucky that my dad moved across the country, or the holiday pressure would be high despite his refusal to get vaccinated. But then I'm good at boundaries and at calling him on his bullshit, at least when he tries to make me believe it. I've gotten very good at saying "I disagree", or "the science doesn't support that".
Is one of their theories that the vaccine doesn't work or isn't effective? Because in my opinion, your behavior is kind of confirming that. I mean, if you're vaccinated, why aren't you going? If everyone at the party were vaccinated, would that really make a difference? What other conclusion could your family possibly come to when the vaccinated people are too afraid to come to the party due to covid other than the vaccine is ineffective or you don't want to see them?
We're feeling intense family pressure to "get back to normal" regarding indoor Christmas gatherings. The accusation -- which has been leveled at us repeatedly -- is that we don't want to see them. But my brilliant young adult son just pointed out that if these people in the family prioritized the ability to see us over everything else (conspiracy theories and woo, mostly), they would be willing to get vaccinated. And really, why should their "right" to not have "poison" injected into their bodies outweigh my "right" not to contract Covid in my own home and possibly get long Covid?
I mean seriously, what do you do when you have a close relative who believes the lunar landings were faked and the world is flat? Or that cannabis cures cancer but the government won't approve it because the health care industry will lose money? That condensation trails are really government produced chemtrails designed to poison us and make money once again for the health care industry? Oh, and that vitamin C IVs cure Covid (which they didn't believe was real until they got it) and essential oils can disinfect everything and we'll be safe from Covid? Plus so many more -- all in one person?
I mean, this person isn't the only one -- both sides of the family are full of Covid deniers, election deniers, birthers, etc. We're actually lucky that my dad moved across the country, or the holiday pressure would be high despite his refusal to get vaccinated. But then I'm good at boundaries and at calling him on his bullshit, at least when he tries to make me believe it. I've gotten very good at saying "I disagree", or "the science doesn't support that".
Is one of their theories that the vaccine doesn't work or isn't effective? Because in my opinion, your behavior is kind of confirming that. I mean, if you're vaccinated, why aren't you going? If everyone at the party were vaccinated, would that really make a difference? What other conclusion could your family possibly come to when the vaccinated people are too afraid to come to the party due to covid other than the vaccine is ineffective or you don't want to see them?
We're feeling intense family pressure to "get back to normal" regarding indoor Christmas gatherings. The accusation -- which has been leveled at us repeatedly -- is that we don't want to see them. But my brilliant young adult son just pointed out that if these people in the family prioritized the ability to see us over everything else (conspiracy theories and woo, mostly), they would be willing to get vaccinated. And really, why should their "right" to not have "poison" injected into their bodies outweigh my "right" not to contract Covid in my own home and possibly get long Covid?
I mean seriously, what do you do when you have a close relative who believes the lunar landings were faked and the world is flat? Or that cannabis cures cancer but the government won't approve it because the health care industry will lose money? That condensation trails are really government produced chemtrails designed to poison us and make money once again for the health care industry? Oh, and that vitamin C IVs cure Covid (which they didn't believe was real until they got it) and essential oils can disinfect everything and we'll be safe from Covid? Plus so many more -- all in one person?
I mean, this person isn't the only one -- both sides of the family are full of Covid deniers, election deniers, birthers, etc. We're actually lucky that my dad moved across the country, or the holiday pressure would be high despite his refusal to get vaccinated. But then I'm good at boundaries and at calling him on his bullshit, at least when he tries to make me believe it. I've gotten very good at saying "I disagree", or "the science doesn't support that".
Is one of their theories that the vaccine doesn't work or isn't effective? Because in my opinion, your behavior is kind of confirming that. I mean, if you're vaccinated, why aren't you going? If everyone at the party were vaccinated, would that really make a difference? What other conclusion could your family possibly come to when the vaccinated people are too afraid to come to the party due to covid other than the vaccine is ineffective or you don't want to see them?
Because vaccination is a group project and it always has been. It is not a magical shield that keeps germs from landing on you.
You need enough people to be vaccinated to cut the transmission of the disease. A highly infectious disease like Covid requires a very high vaccination rate to do that.
We're feeling intense family pressure to "get back to normal" regarding indoor Christmas gatherings. The accusation -- which has been leveled at us repeatedly -- is that we don't want to see them. But my brilliant young adult son just pointed out that if these people in the family prioritized the ability to see us over everything else (conspiracy theories and woo, mostly), they would be willing to get vaccinated. And really, why should their "right" to not have "poison" injected into their bodies outweigh my "right" not to contract Covid in my own home and possibly get long Covid?
I mean seriously, what do you do when you have a close relative who believes the lunar landings were faked and the world is flat? Or that cannabis cures cancer but the government won't approve it because the health care industry will lose money? That condensation trails are really government produced chemtrails designed to poison us and make money once again for the health care industry? Oh, and that vitamin C IVs cure Covid (which they didn't believe was real until they got it) and essential oils can disinfect everything and we'll be safe from Covid? Plus so many more -- all in one person?
I mean, this person isn't the only one -- both sides of the family are full of Covid deniers, election deniers, birthers, etc. We're actually lucky that my dad moved across the country, or the holiday pressure would be high despite his refusal to get vaccinated. But then I'm good at boundaries and at calling him on his bullshit, at least when he tries to make me believe it. I've gotten very good at saying "I disagree", or "the science doesn't support that".
Is one of their theories that the vaccine doesn't work or isn't effective? Because in my opinion, your behavior is kind of confirming that. I mean, if you're vaccinated, why aren't you going? If everyone at the party were vaccinated, would that really make a difference? What other conclusion could your family possibly come to when the vaccinated people are too afraid to come to the party due to covid other than the vaccine is ineffective or you don't want to see them?
Because vaccination is a group project and it always has been. It is not a magical shield that keeps germs from landing on you.
You need enough people to be vaccinated to cut the transmission of the disease. A highly infectious disease like Covid requires a very high vaccination rate to do that.
That was before we spent a year with lots of social interaction and high levels of people not vaccinated so the virus did what viruses do in those circumstances and found a way around the vaccine. But you already knew that, right?We're feeling intense family pressure to "get back to normal" regarding indoor Christmas gatherings. The accusation -- which has been leveled at us repeatedly -- is that we don't want to see them. But my brilliant young adult son just pointed out that if these people in the family prioritized the ability to see us over everything else (conspiracy theories and woo, mostly), they would be willing to get vaccinated. And really, why should their "right" to not have "poison" injected into their bodies outweigh my "right" not to contract Covid in my own home and possibly get long Covid?
I mean seriously, what do you do when you have a close relative who believes the lunar landings were faked and the world is flat? Or that cannabis cures cancer but the government won't approve it because the health care industry will lose money? That condensation trails are really government produced chemtrails designed to poison us and make money once again for the health care industry? Oh, and that vitamin C IVs cure Covid (which they didn't believe was real until they got it) and essential oils can disinfect everything and we'll be safe from Covid? Plus so many more -- all in one person?
I mean, this person isn't the only one -- both sides of the family are full of Covid deniers, election deniers, birthers, etc. We're actually lucky that my dad moved across the country, or the holiday pressure would be high despite his refusal to get vaccinated. But then I'm good at boundaries and at calling him on his bullshit, at least when he tries to make me believe it. I've gotten very good at saying "I disagree", or "the science doesn't support that".
Is one of their theories that the vaccine doesn't work or isn't effective? Because in my opinion, your behavior is kind of confirming that. I mean, if you're vaccinated, why aren't you going? If everyone at the party were vaccinated, would that really make a difference? What other conclusion could your family possibly come to when the vaccinated people are too afraid to come to the party due to covid other than the vaccine is ineffective or you don't want to see them?
Because vaccination is a group project and it always has been. It is not a magical shield that keeps germs from landing on you.
You need enough people to be vaccinated to cut the transmission of the disease. A highly infectious disease like Covid requires a very high vaccination rate to do that.
Do we not remember talking about how highly effective the vaccines were at preventing the contraction of covid? Remember? 85-90+% efficacy in preventing covid? Yes, vaccines are a group project, but they are most certainly supposed to prevent you from getting covid (or maybe you are just trying to be clever by saying "germs land on you" in a literal sense)... at least that's what the scientists were measuring when it was first being tested and approved. They were supposed to be a shield and advertised as a shield.
Do we not remember talking about how highly effective the vaccines were at preventing the contraction of covid? Remember? 85-90+% efficacy in preventing covid? Yes, vaccines are a group project, but they are most certainly supposed to prevent you from getting covid (or maybe you are just trying to be clever by saying "germs land on you" in a literal sense)... at least that's what the scientists were measuring when it was first being tested and approved. They were supposed to be a shield and advertised as a shield.
Maybe this will be the path to a (biologically) forced herd immunity 😬
I know a 78 year old lady, anti-vaxxer. It is like watching a car head straight for a wall and she is on the gas. So tragic. Horrible outcome upcoming.
Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Who knows? But my sense is that this country is so polarized that most businesses who are anti-vax are proud of it. Like, it’s a marketing chip for them. So I figure most businesses are gonna fall into one of three categories:
1) vocally pro-vax: meaning they require evidence of their employees and employ protocols that vehemently anti-vax people would reject on principle
2) vax status avoidant: refusing to take a stand or ask people, in which case one should assume employees and customers are largely not safe
3) vocally anti-vax/anti-mask: in which case, one should assume no safety at all.
Only if we completely ignore the scope (number of infected), transmissibility and severity. Corona viruses are very common. Ones that do this kind of damage are novel.Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
Only if we completely ignore the scope (number of infected), transmissibility and severity. Corona viruses are very common. Ones that do this kind of damage are novel.Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
Only if we completely ignore the scope (number of infected), transmissibility and severity. Corona viruses are very common. Ones that do this kind of damage are novel.Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
Do we not remember talking about how highly effective the vaccines were at preventing the contraction of covid? Remember? 85-90+% efficacy in preventing covid? Yes, vaccines are a group project, but they are most certainly supposed to prevent you from getting covid (or maybe you are just trying to be clever by saying "germs land on you" in a literal sense)... at least that's what the scientists were measuring when it was first being tested and approved. They were supposed to be a shield and advertised as a shield.
Only if we completely ignore the scope (number of infected), transmissibility and severity. Corona viruses are very common. Ones that do this kind of damage are novel.Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
The vaccine provides little/no protection from getting it so the number of infected is going to be super high this time, but is Omnicron doing significant damage to people who are vaccinated/boostered?
Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
Only if we completely ignore the scope (number of infected), transmissibility and severity. Corona viruses are very common. Ones that do this kind of damage are novel.Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
Obviously, I guess that I shouldn't dismiss the very high transmission rate. But if the severity of a breakthrough omicron case is "bad cold" then sign me up. That's a joke, I obviously hope to be in the 76% that never gets it. But I guess that the math is different for our Canadian friends that probably got a bunch of AZ doses instead of Pfizer/Moderna.
Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
There are coronaviruses that cause colds, and omicron seems to have picked up some cold coronavirus RNA. But it is still a Covid-19 variant and we don't know what the Covid component will do to people. We know what other Covid variants have done to vulnerable people. So assuming it will be "just a cold" doesn't seem like a safe assumption.
I mean, if I were sure it would be "just a cold" I would be out in the stores instead of doing curb-side pickup. But I'm not, so I'm not.
Just like a cold if you have three dozes of a vaccine, and not have a compromised immune system. Which is not like a cold at all.
Only if we completely ignore the scope (number of infected), transmissibility and severity. Corona viruses are very common. Ones that do this kind of damage are novel.Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
Obviously, I guess that I shouldn't dismiss the very high transmission rate. But if the severity of a breakthrough omicron case is "bad cold" then sign me up. That's a joke, I obviously hope to be in the 76% that never gets it. But I guess that the math is different for our Canadian friends that probably got a bunch of AZ doses instead of Pfizer/Moderna.
??? Most of us are Pfizer/Moderna, very few AZ. I am Pfizer x 3. I would have had to work at it to get Moderna for my 3rd dose. AZ is basically not being used much.
Do we not remember talking about how highly effective the vaccines were at preventing the contraction of covid? Remember? 85-90+% efficacy in preventing covid? Yes, vaccines are a group project, but they are most certainly supposed to prevent you from getting covid (or maybe you are just trying to be clever by saying "germs land on you" in a literal sense)... at least that's what the scientists were measuring when it was first being tested and approved. They were supposed to be a shield and advertised as a shield.
Yes, I also remember when officials were saying that a 50% effective vaccine would be a game changer (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/18/coronavirus-vaccine-with-50percent-efficacy-would-be-game-changer.html). And it would have been, in the sense that is half the transmission and hospitalization. But obviously 95% > 50%. While I am personally willing to live my life close to "normal" with three doses of Pfizer that doesn't mean that I expect the same from everyone. Now is not the time to need to go to the hospital. That doesn't even take into account that this is an international forum and many people don't have access to three doses of Pfizer.
COVID is deadly, but we need to understand that its deadly for a small segment of the population, who should absolutely be protected, but something like elementary schools should continue as normal.
Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
There are coronaviruses that cause colds, and omicron seems to have picked up some cold coronavirus RNA. But it is still a Covid-19 variant and we don't know what the Covid component will do to people. We know what other Covid variants have done to vulnerable people. So assuming it will be "just a cold" doesn't seem like a safe assumption.
I mean, if I were sure it would be "just a cold" I would be out in the stores instead of doing curb-side pickup. But I'm not, so I'm not.
If you are vaxxed and boosted, then the chance of you ending up with a disease that is more than "just a cold" is extremely low. A 63 year old normally has a 10% risk of hospitalization from COVID. Vaccination lowers the risk 94%, to roughly 0.6%. Or 6 out of 1,000 cases. Which is about twice the rate of the common cold, but lower than the flu.
Not my place to tell you that you should be in the stores not doing curbside pickup, but I do think there has been some excessive fear mongering regarding the risk of COVID.
If you are vaxxed and boosted, then the chance of you ending up with a disease that is more than "just a cold" is extremely low. A 63 year old normally has a 10% risk of hospitalization from COVID. Vaccination lowers the risk 94%, to roughly 0.6%. Or 6 out of 1,000 cases. Which is about twice the rate of the common cold, but lower than the flu.
Not my place to tell you that you should be in the stores not doing curbside pickup, but I do think there has been some excessive fear mongering regarding the risk of COVID.
Just heard that 2 people I know slightly in my city, who are in their 30s, have the omicron variant (not surprising, 100% omicron in our wastewater). Bad cold basically, with fever, fatigue, and headache. One is double vaccinated, one is boostered. So much for "back to normal", we are in "it spreads like measles" territory.
Isn't a coronavirus that causes cold symptoms the definition of normal?
There are coronaviruses that cause colds, and omicron seems to have picked up some cold coronavirus RNA. But it is still a Covid-19 variant and we don't know what the Covid component will do to people. We know what other Covid variants have done to vulnerable people. So assuming it will be "just a cold" doesn't seem like a safe assumption.
I mean, if I were sure it would be "just a cold" I would be out in the stores instead of doing curb-side pickup. But I'm not, so I'm not.
If you are vaxxed and boosted, then the chance of you ending up with a disease that is more than "just a cold" is extremely low. A 63 year old normally has a 10% risk of hospitalization from COVID. Vaccination lowers the risk 94%, to roughly 0.6%. Or 6 out of 1,000 cases. Which is about twice the rate of the common cold, but lower than the flu.
Not my place to tell you that you should be in the stores not doing curbside pickup, but I do think there has been some excessive fear mongering regarding the risk of COVID.
??? Most of us are Pfizer/Moderna, very few AZ. I am Pfizer x 3. I would have had to work at it to get Moderna for my 3rd dose. AZ is basically not being used much.
If you're older or immunocompromised than you've received similar care as the Americans. The roll-out for everyone else has been pretty slow though.
As a non-immunocompromised 40 year old, I'm one of the 2.3 million Canadians who were given AZ/Covishield as our first dose. Pfizer second shot. The earliest opportunity I've been able to to book a booster is early January. (Not that we know how the boosters work for people who were given an off label vaccine schedule.) My son has been given his first vaccine dose and is scheduled for his second dose mid-January.
Omicron scares me due to its transmissibility, but thankfully early data indicates its slightly less deadly than Delta.
I'm in an at-risk age group (no longer 63), I have so-so lungs as a result of growing up with smokers and working in bad air-quality cities, and have already had bronchitis and pneumonia (many years ago) and mild adult-onset asthma, so I really don't want to risk lung damage. Or who knows what kind of long covid omicron will produce?
My last cold (March of 2020) was really nasty. Even if I caught omicron and it was "just a bad cold", my bad colds are bad.
I basically don't bother to mention all this on the forums, but really when I do my personal risk assessment I have to take everything in my past health history into consideration. Plus if I visit DD I am also visiting a 6 month old baby. So what may look low risk to you is being evaluated with more factors than you are seeing. I'm sure that is true for many of us on here.
I'm in an at-risk age group (no longer 63), I have so-so lungs as a result of growing up with smokers and working in bad air-quality cities, and have already had bronchitis and pneumonia (many years ago) and mild adult-onset asthma, so I really don't want to risk lung damage. Or who knows what kind of long covid omicron will produce?
My last cold (March of 2020) was really nasty. Even if I caught omicron and it was "just a bad cold", my bad colds are bad.
I basically don't bother to mention all this on the forums, but really when I do my personal risk assessment I have to take everything in my past health history into consideration. Plus if I visit DD I am also visiting a 6 month old baby. So what may look low risk to you is being evaluated with more factors than you are seeing. I'm sure that is true for many of us on here.
I'm in a similar place. I grew up with smoking in the home (and all the relatives homes), and for the first 6 years with an interstate directly behind the backyard fence. When we moved our new house was 600 feet from another major interstate. I've always lived in a high pollution area -- my county averages 50 "good" air quality days per year. I've had asthma since I was an infant. Add in childhood poverty and poor nutrition.
A bad cold is never "just" a bad cold for me -- I almost always end up with bronchitis and spend a couple of months recovering from it. Sometimes it's pneumonia instead.
Post after post, I don't know why I continue to be amazed. But whether this is because it's just not how some people think about the world, or because they don't want to see it, the fact that some people think of the risk to others, not just to themselves, seems to be willfully ignored.
As a 40-something with no underlying health issues other than a bit of extra weight (but not obese), yes, I'd probably be fine if I got Covid, with my 3 doses of Moderna. But I care about my neighbors and my friends and the people who work at the grocery story and the friend of a friend of a friend of those people. I'll likely be fine, but it's also very likely that not all of those people would be fine. That's why I'm still masking and I'm staying home more and I don't want to go to large gatherings--especially with unvaxxed folks. Because I don't want to contribute to the exponential thread of this thing that certainly will kill and badly harm others, and will likely inundate our health care system so that even those without Covid have worse medical outcomes.
"You are vaxxed so you'll be fine" is such a selfish, short-sighted take on all this. I think about people other than myself, and thankfully, many others do as well.
And if that person is interacting with others in society, they're presumably accepting of some level of risk too. They're responsible for knowing and accepting the risks involved, and they have to deal with any consequences from their choices.
I continue to be amazed and frustrated by this pandemic; has definitely shown how selfish a large number of people can be.
And if that person is interacting with others in society, they're presumably accepting of some level of risk too. They're responsible for knowing and accepting the risks involved, and they have to deal with any consequences from their choices.
Interacting with people in society is not optional.
Yes people in this position are already forced to do all these things. That's not being debated. The debate is why other people decide not to care about improving the odds for anyone else.
I continue to be amazed and frustrated by this pandemic; has definitely shown how selfish a large number of people can be.
And (willfully?) ignorant.
And if that person is interacting with others in society, they're presumably accepting of some level of risk too. They're responsible for knowing and accepting the risks involved, and they have to deal with any consequences from their choices.
Interacting with people in society is not optional.
I've taken the steps that I feel are prudent so that I'm comfortable with the risk of going out in public. My assumption is that everybody else going out in public is also accepting of any risk simply by being there, and has taken whatever steps they feel are appropriate for themselves. If they're unvaxxed and get sick, that's a consequence of their own choices. If they're vaxxed but not masking or keeping distance and they get sick, that's a consequence of their own choices.But there's the rub. If they fully expect to utilize the strained resources of the healthcare system then they aren't accepting the risk of getting sick.
Then everybody had better figure out whatever steps they need to take to mitigate their personal risk exposure, which is mostly what this thread has been about -->Learning to live with covid.
Your point is kind of my point too. There is no society without interaction. There is no interaction without risk. Control what you can control, do what you need to do to mitigate risk so that you can be comfortable in society, and deal with whatever comes up. If you want or need to be more cautious, then by all means take those steps.
Then everybody had better figure out whatever steps they need to take to mitigate their personal risk exposure, which is mostly what this thread has been about -->Learning to live with covid.
Your point is kind of my point too. There is no society without interaction. There is no interaction without risk. Control what you can control, do what you need to do to mitigate risk so that you can be comfortable in society, and deal with whatever comes up. If you want or need to be more cautious, then by all means take those steps.
You keep putting the onus on people who are vulnerable to Covid. Trust me, they are already doing what they can. You avoid even acknowledging it, time after time.
Just like an investment asset allocation, things are fluid and changes may be needed based on external factors.
you are more responsible for your own safety than the rest of society is for your safety
Sure, more responsible. No one argued against this.
But what I hear you saying is that "everyone is solely responsible for themselves, and others shouldn't concern themselves."
Under what conditions are you willing to change your behavior in order to improve the odds that others have decreased risk and/or benefits?
Then everybody had better figure out whatever steps they need to take to mitigate their personal risk exposure, which is mostly what this thread has been about -->Learning to live with covid.
Your point is kind of my point too. There is no society without interaction. There is no interaction without risk. Control what you can control, do what you need to do to mitigate risk so that you can be comfortable in society, and deal with whatever comes up. If you want or need to be more cautious, then by all means take those steps.
You keep putting the onus on people who are vulnerable to Covid. Trust me, they are already doing what they can. You avoid even acknowledging it, time after time.
Yes, you are more responsible for your own safety than the rest of society is for your safety. If you're lucky, there may be some helpful regulations in place for certain things to increase safety but that's not always the case.
Paper chaser, you are starting to remind me of hash brown in your unwillingness to see that choices you think are valid may be valid from your viewpoint, but are real risks from a society viewpoint. You are certainly a good example of the American rugged individualist thinking, as opposed to the American barn-raising we are all in this together and help each other thinking.
I'm not going to bother replying to you any more. I'm too old for this nonsense, I will conserve my energy for more useful endeavours.
Paper chaser, you are starting to remind me of hash brown in your unwillingness to see that choices you think are valid may be valid from your viewpoint, but are real risks from a society viewpoint. You are certainly a good example of the American rugged individualist thinking, as opposed to the American barn-raising we are all in this together and help each other thinking.
I'm not going to bother replying to you any more. I'm too old for this nonsense, I will conserve my energy for more useful endeavours.
Paper chaser, you are starting to remind me of hash brown in your unwillingness to see that choices you think are valid may be valid from your viewpoint, but are real risks from a society viewpoint. You are certainly a good example of the American rugged individualist thinking, as opposed to the American barn-raising we are all in this together and help each other thinking.
I'm not going to bother replying to you any more. I'm too old for this nonsense, I will conserve my energy for more useful endeavours.
First it was "Stay home for the greater good. We're all in this together". Then it was "Wear a mask for the greater good. We're all in this together". Then it was "Get vaccinated for the greater good. We're all in this together". I've done those things, and I'll continue to do them as needed (staying home when feeling sick, wearing a mask when requested, etc). I'm abiding by all local regulations. I've followed the rules and expectations of society throughout this pandemic and will continue to. I'm simply not going above and beyond those rules and expectations. If that's not enough for you then you're free to judge as you see fit I guess.
Just like an investment asset allocation, things are fluid and changes may be needed based on external factors.
Once me buying VTI starts killing my neighbors' parents, I'll consider the analogy perfectly sensible.
If Omicron hospitalizations are as low as they've been in South Africa & UK, the biggest problem is going to be people out of work for illness and self quarantines. Businesses will need to temporarily shut their doors, flights and other transportation cancelled, hospital staff will be low, etc.
If Omicron hospitalizations are as low as they've been in South Africa & UK, the biggest problem is going to be people out of work for illness and self quarantines. Businesses will need to temporarily shut their doors, flights and other transportation cancelled, hospital staff will be low, etc.
Curious what makes people assume things in the US will be no worse than what they are experiencing in the UK. We have less of our population fully vaccinated and we certainly are not any healthier to begin with. The UK has been better on a whole at implementing restrictive measures than the US, and doesn’t have a huge subset who fall outside the healthcare system.
Curious what makes people assume things in the US will be no worse than what they are experiencing in the UK. We have less of our population fully vaccinated and we certainly are not any healthier to begin with. The UK has been better on a whole at implementing restrictive measures than the US, and doesn’t have a huge subset who fall outside the healthcare system.
I think that some people are hopeful because half of the UK got AZ while most of the US got Moderna or Pfizer. The UK has certainly been different that the US in lockdown policy. They had a strict lockdown that got their numbers into a really good place and then opened up the bars before vaccines were available then of course had to reimpose restrictions. I actually thought that sounded like the worst possible thing to do to you population but I didn't live through it as I was here at the time. There is a big fight in England right now about what is to be done.
There is also a thought that AZ is not as good at Pfizer or Moderna at preventing infection (antibodies) but is better at preventing serious illness and death (T-cells), and that this is part of the reason why although our Delta and Omicron infection numbers are both high our death rate (which started out as one of the worst in the world) is steadily trending downwards as against other countries. Plus, as Phil says, a lot of recent effort has gone into boosters: 32 million out of an adult population of 55 million have already been boosted and we are averaging over three quarters of a million boosters every day.Curious what makes people assume things in the US will be no worse than what they are experiencing in the UK. We have less of our population fully vaccinated and we certainly are not any healthier to begin with. The UK has been better on a whole at implementing restrictive measures than the US, and doesn’t have a huge subset who fall outside the healthcare system.
I think that some people are hopeful because half of the UK got AZ while most of the US got Moderna or Pfizer. The UK has certainly been different that the US in lockdown policy. They had a strict lockdown that got their numbers into a really good place and then opened up the bars before vaccines were available then of course had to reimpose restrictions. I actually thought that sounded like the worst possible thing to do to you population but I didn't live through it as I was here at the time. There is a big fight in England right now about what is to be done.
The unlocking in 2020 in the UK was a mess, but the 2021 unlocking was going very well indeed before Omicron came along. We kept things tight until enough people were vaxxed and then opened up to get to 'living with Covid' in advance of the winter.
Omicron has changed things, but most of the people who had AZ have also had a Pfizer booster which is a combination that gives really good immunity. The jury is very much out on Omicron. Cases are growing, but not exponentially. Almost everyone even vaguely vulnerable is triple vaxxed and many have also had exposure to earlier variants. If we do have to lock down because the NHS is overwhelmed, my guess is that it's more likely to be because NHS staff with mild cases are isolating than because of a glut of patients, but it's still too early to be sure.
I would be a lot more nervous about the US system coping as you have so many more unprotected people than we do.
I would be a lot more nervous about the US system coping as you have so many more unprotected people than we do.
Maybe this has been asked and answered, but how far do you push asking people if they've been vaccinated? Case in point, I use a couple of different veterinarians. One of them has been faithfully following the protocol of clients staying in their cars, the (fully masked) staff runs the pets back and forth. The other is a different situation - I didn't visit during the early onset of the pandemic, but not long afterward they were allowing clients into the waiting room. Masking was hit and miss. Lo and behold, that practice had to shut down in August when Delta was raging. I haven't been back to them and I'm not sure I want to unless I know why they had their shutdown and if they have now changed their practices. Is it even legal to ask a small business about vax status?
Ask. Of course that is legal. If they refuse to answer, you have your answer.
You are free to ask, but I would bet that most businesses answer either "that's none of your business" or "we are in compliance will all OSHA requirements." My company HR department knows everyone's vaccination status. We don't hand it out to people who walk in the door asking for it.
I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving.
What parts of the old normal do people want back?
What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?
Businesses are the same way. If they have a policy of wearing masks, requiring vaccination, etc, they'll tell you outright. If they don't, you'll get some other answer. Policies are meant to be shared. How well the policy is followed, enforcement, etc is different. But they'll tell you the if there's a policy.
I'd like "back to normal" - new normal - to include masking being something people normally do (and not looked at as if you're strange if you do) and it not being acceptable to go to work or other things when you're sick.
Things I want to stay: a heightened level of consideration not to come to work send a child to school when you are not well. Options for curbside pickup. Using zoom meetings rather than flying across the country on a regular basis for face-to-face.
I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving.
What parts of the old normal do people want back?
What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?
I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving.
What parts of the old normal do people want back?
What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?
Things I want back: the right to choose to wear or not wear a mask for myself, my family and kids in nearly every scenario. A return to a life of appropriate levels of caution and reliability for schools, daycares, anywhere involving mostly low risk children , more similar to a pre-covid flu season. A reduction of the level of paranoia regarding socializing and vaccination status. For example, I do not think vaccination status should be checked at the door of restaurants and I don't think families should be refusing to gather based on vaccination status disparities. (Please note, I am fully vaxxed).
Things I want to stay: a heightened level of consideration not to come to work send a child to school when you are not well. Options for curbside pickup. Using zoom meetings rather than flying across the country on a regular basis for face-to-face.
I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving.
What parts of the old normal do people want back?
What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?
Things I want back: the right to choose to wear or not wear a mask for myself, my family and kids in nearly every scenario. A return to a life of appropriate levels of caution and reliability for schools, daycares, anywhere involving mostly low risk children , more similar to a pre-covid flu season. A reduction of the level of paranoia regarding socializing and vaccination status. For example, I do not think vaccination status should be checked at the door of restaurants and I don't think families should be refusing to gather based on vaccination status disparities. (Please note, I am fully vaxxed).
Things I want to stay: a heightened level of consideration not to come to work send a child to school when you are not well. Options for curbside pickup. Using zoom meetings rather than flying across the country on a regular basis for face-to-face.
I agree with you on all the things you want to stay but am otherwise confused. You want the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a mask but don't think other people should be able to choose whether or not they want to socialize with family members who are or are not vaccinated? You can't have it both ways.
I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving.
What parts of the old normal do people want back?
What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?
Things I want back: the right to choose to wear or not wear a mask for myself, my family and kids in nearly every scenario. A return to a life of appropriate levels of caution and reliability for schools, daycares, anywhere involving mostly low risk children , more similar to a pre-covid flu season. A reduction of the level of paranoia regarding socializing and vaccination status. For example, I do not think vaccination status should be checked at the door of restaurants and I don't think families should be refusing to gather based on vaccination status disparities. (Please note, I am fully vaxxed).
Things I want to stay: a heightened level of consideration not to come to work send a child to school when you are not well. Options for curbside pickup. Using zoom meetings rather than flying across the country on a regular basis for face-to-face.
I agree with you on all the things you want to stay but am otherwise confused. You want the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a mask but don't think other people should be able to choose whether or not they want to socialize with family members who are or are not vaccinated? You can't have it both ways.
It's the way it was before... so yes, I think it can be. Let me be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't have a choice who you socialize with, but what I am saying is I want it back to the way before where people did not care who had their flu shot to go over to their house for christmas... or ask for their vaccination card to enter a restaurant. I asked for a reduction in the level of paranoia regarding vaccination status as it was before.
All of the above I’d like to stay, plus:
Telemedicine as an option.
All the long-time antivaxxers we know voted for Bernie, HRC, and Biden. It seemed positive that Trump recently spoke out publicly to encourage his supporters to get one of the covid vaccines.
Although we each prioritize differently, fewer restrictions and more flexibility seems to be enjoyed by pretty much everybody.
So the consistent theme that seems to run through almost all of these "return to normal" scenarios is a desire to have fewer limitations and more freedom for each individual to choose what's right for them.
Except they did not account for vaccinate status in this.Omicron scares me due to its transmissibility, but thankfully early data indicates its slightly less deadly than Delta.
I saw this today (https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-booster-offers-substantial-protection-against-symptomatic-infection-with-omicron-study-finds-11640191103). That states "markedly lower risk of hospitalization... The University of Edinburgh study, drawing on the health records of 5.4 million people in Scotland, found the risk of hospitalization with Covid-19 was two-thirds lower with Omicron than with Delta." Of course the catch being that if three times as many people get it then it's a wash.
Except they did not account for vaccinate status in this.Omicron scares me due to its transmissibility, but thankfully early data indicates its slightly less deadly than Delta.
I saw this today (https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-booster-offers-substantial-protection-against-symptomatic-infection-with-omicron-study-finds-11640191103). That states "markedly lower risk of hospitalization... The University of Edinburgh study, drawing on the health records of 5.4 million people in Scotland, found the risk of hospitalization with Covid-19 was two-thirds lower with Omicron than with Delta." Of course the catch being that if three times as many people get it then it's a wash.
Paper chaser, you are starting to remind me of hash brown in your unwillingness to see that choices you think are valid may be valid from your viewpoint, but are real risks from a society viewpoint. You are certainly a good example of the American rugged individualist thinking, as opposed to the American barn-raising we are all in this together and help each other thinking.
I'm not going to bother replying to you any more. I'm too old for this nonsense, I will conserve my energy for more useful endeavours.
First it was "Stay home for the greater good. We're all in this together". Then it was "Wear a mask for the greater good. We're all in this together". Then it was "Get vaccinated for the greater good. We're all in this together". I've done those things, and I'll continue to do them as needed (staying home when feeling sick, wearing a mask when requested, etc). I'm abiding by all local regulations. I've followed the rules and expectations of society throughout this pandemic and will continue to. I'm simply not going above and beyond those rules and expectations. If that's not enough for you then you're free to judge as you see fit I guess.
It's just that you are following the rules without really seeming to see the need for them. Without seeing that some people are going to be more vulnerable despite all their choices because of other peoples' choices.
Maybe I am mis-interpreting your posts. Let's let it rest.
There are a few thoughts about this study that guide its interpretation
1. Number of events (hospitalizations) was low for S- (omicron) patients: only 15. Obviously a good thing but hard to account for multiple factors with this few events.
2. The unvaccinated population in the study was much lower than in the US (<10% of those 40+). Also the healthy population was much higher (73% had no comorbidities and only 6% had more than 1). In the US this is closer to 40% healthy.
3. This difference between the UK and the US is important because their data shows that the efficacy of non-booster doses against omicron wanes after 14 weeks, and by 25 weeks is similar to not being vaccinated at all!
Thus even if people are being admitted at lower rates (30-45% of expected), the entire non-booster population is essentially unprotected. In the US that is a very large population, especially accounting for our poor health status as a nation.
4. Prior covid infection does not provide any protection.
There are a few thoughts about this study that guide its interpretation
1. Number of events (hospitalizations) was low for S- (omicron) patients: only 15. Obviously a good thing but hard to account for multiple factors with this few events.
2. The unvaccinated population in the study was much lower than in the US (<10% of those 40+). Also the healthy population was much higher (73% had no comorbidities and only 6% had more than 1). In the US this is closer to 40% healthy.
3. This difference between the UK and the US is important because their data shows that the efficacy of non-booster doses against omicron wanes after 14 weeks, and by 25 weeks is similar to not being vaccinated at all!
Thus even if people are being admitted at lower rates (30-45% of expected), the entire non-booster population is essentially unprotected. In the US that is a very large population, especially accounting for our poor health status as a nation.
4. Prior covid infection does not provide any protection.
The drop off in vaccine efficacy is in regard to developing symptoms, not in regard to developing severe disease. This has been a consistent finding in many studies. Bad news for spreading potential, but nothing like that bad for death rates or hospital occupancy.
It's the way it was before... so yes, I think it can be. Let me be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't have a choice who you socialize with, but what I am saying is I want it back to the way before where people did not care who had their flu shot to go over to their house for christmas... or ask for their vaccination card to enter a restaurant. I asked for a reduction in the level of paranoia regarding vaccination status as it was before.
It's the way it was before... so yes, I think it can be. Let me be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't have a choice who you socialize with, but what I am saying is I want it back to the way before where people did not care who had their flu shot to go over to their house for christmas... or ask for their vaccination card to enter a restaurant. I asked for a reduction in the level of paranoia regarding vaccination status as it was before.
I'm sorry that my interpretation is not very charitable - but it sounds to me like you want other people's risk assessment (for themselves and the society) to match yours, and you justify it by calling their risk assessment paranoia.
So the consistent theme that seems to run through almost all of these "return to normal" scenarios is a desire to have fewer limitations and more freedom for each individual to choose what's right for them.
Based on these responses, it seems like most people want the freedom to choose to stay home if they're sick. They want to work remotely if possible, but having an option to work onsite appeals to many as well. They want to be able to wear a mask, or not wear a mask in public as they see fit, or go into stores/restaurants, or easily pick items up curbside or have them delivered, or travel freely.
Although we each prioritize differently, fewer restrictions and more flexibility seems to be enjoyed by pretty much everybody.
It's the way it was before... so yes, I think it can be. Let me be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't have a choice who you socialize with, but what I am saying is I want it back to the way before where people did not care who had their flu shot to go over to their house for christmas... or ask for their vaccination card to enter a restaurant. I asked for a reduction in the level of paranoia regarding vaccination status as it was before.
I'm sorry that my interpretation is not very charitable - but it sounds to me like you want other people's risk assessment (for themselves and the society) to match yours, and you justify it by calling their risk assessment paranoia.
Things are pretty tight here at the moment because of omicron. They were a lot easier before - yes vaccinated, but at a restaurant you have to take a mask off.
Now 2 friends of my DD have omicron, because he works at a bar/restaurant and they had all the pre-Christmas parties. Both healthy and vaccinated, severe colds (and diagnosed) but not bad enough to go to hospital. So basically omicron is a rule changer - super infectious but so far not as nasty. And here at least, our waste water analysis says it is now 100% of our cases. We just need to see now if the low hospitalization rate seen in South Africa for omicron holds true here (different population, winter).
The person I quoted asked for opinions about what people are craving as "back to normal". Unless you are telling me that you believe people were avoiding social gatherings based on vaccination status and restaurants were checking vaccination cards at the door prior to entry prior to 2020, I think it's fair for me to wish to have that back.... that's my opinion, so shoot me. I'm not saying people need to match their risk assessment to mine, I'm saying, "those were good times when people didn't lose their friends and family over vaccination status" and personally I wouldn't mind getting back to that. This whole "wow someone thinks that this virus is going to be around forever and they think it's reasonable to get back to pre-Covid normal so they are automatically an inconsiderate selfish asshole" is getting a little old.
It's the way it was before... so yes, I think it can be. Let me be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't have a choice who you socialize with, but what I am saying is I want it back to the way before where people did not care who had their flu shot to go over to their house for christmas... or ask for their vaccination card to enter a restaurant. I asked for a reduction in the level of paranoia regarding vaccination status as it was before.
I'm sorry that my interpretation is not very charitable - but it sounds to me like you want other people's risk assessment (for themselves and the society) to match yours, and you justify it by calling their risk assessment paranoia.
The person I quoted asked for opinions about what people are craving as "back to normal". Unless you are telling me that you believe people were avoiding social gatherings based on vaccination status and restaurants were checking vaccination cards at the door prior to entry prior to 2020, I think it's fair for me to wish to have that back.... that's my opinion, so shoot me. I'm not saying people need to match their risk assessment to mine, I'm saying, "those were good times when people didn't lose their friends and family over vaccination status" and personally I wouldn't mind getting back to that. This whole "wow someone thinks that this virus is going to be around forever and they think it's reasonable to get back to pre-Covid normal so they are automatically an inconsiderate selfish asshole" is getting a little old.
It's the way it was before... so yes, I think it can be. Let me be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't have a choice who you socialize with, but what I am saying is I want it back to the way before where people did not care who had their flu shot to go over to their house for christmas... or ask for their vaccination card to enter a restaurant. I asked for a reduction in the level of paranoia regarding vaccination status as it was before.
I'm sorry that my interpretation is not very charitable - but it sounds to me like you want other people's risk assessment (for themselves and the society) to match yours, and you justify it by calling their risk assessment paranoia.
The person I quoted asked for opinions about what people are craving as "back to normal". Unless you are telling me that you believe people were avoiding social gatherings based on vaccination status and restaurants were checking vaccination cards at the door prior to entry prior to 2020, I think it's fair for me to wish to have that back.... that's my opinion, so shoot me. I'm not saying people need to match their risk assessment to mine, I'm saying, "those were good times when people didn't lose their friends and family over vaccination status" and personally I wouldn't mind getting back to that. This whole "wow someone thinks that this virus is going to be around forever and they think it's reasonable to get back to pre-Covid normal so they are automatically an inconsiderate selfish asshole" is getting a little old.
My SIL required all visitors to be up-to-date on vaccinations when visiting her newborns in 2013 and 2014. Public and many private school kids have long been required to present proof of vaccination, and the military has long ordered a huge panel of vaccines for enlisted members. Immunocompromised people and their families have long requested that others not visit if sick or unvaccinated. The difference now is that we have a recently introduced, highly contagious, and rapidly mutating virus. I reiterate that we're not back to normal yet, whatever that means. More than 200K cases on Christmas Day, when many normal testing facilities were closed, and 4,500 canceled flights worldwide over the last weekend is not normal.
I don't think a person deciding that they don't want the additional risk of inviting an unvaccinated person into their private home = losing friends and family over vaccination status. That seems to be a false equivalence for dramatic effect. It's the unvaccinated person's choice to refuse the vaccine and accept the consequences of that choice, and everyone else's choice to decide their own level of risk exposure. Is that freedom to decide for oneself not what you wanted? In my own case, I do not care to entertain unvaccinated people in my home in the current major wave. If they choose to be vaccinated, they will be welcomed. When the wave subsides, I will reconsider my stance based on the best available information. Should I not have the right to make such decisions in my own home, just because my decisions might make someone else feel bad about the consequences of their own free choices? Should business owners not have the choice to decide how much risk from potentially unvaccinated customers they will require their employees to tolerate?
It really is coming across as though you want the freedom to make your own choices but don't feel that others should have the same freedom. I do hope I've misread several of your posts incorrectly.
It's the way it was before... so yes, I think it can be. Let me be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't have a choice who you socialize with, but what I am saying is I want it back to the way before where people did not care who had their flu shot to go over to their house for christmas... or ask for their vaccination card to enter a restaurant. I asked for a reduction in the level of paranoia regarding vaccination status as it was before.
I'm sorry that my interpretation is not very charitable - but it sounds to me like you want other people's risk assessment (for themselves and the society) to match yours, and you justify it by calling their risk assessment paranoia.
The person I quoted asked for opinions about what people are craving as "back to normal". Unless you are telling me that you believe people were avoiding social gatherings based on vaccination status and restaurants were checking vaccination cards at the door prior to entry prior to 2020, I think it's fair for me to wish to have that back.... that's my opinion, so shoot me. I'm not saying people need to match their risk assessment to mine, I'm saying, "those were good times when people didn't lose their friends and family over vaccination status" and personally I wouldn't mind getting back to that. This whole "wow someone thinks that this virus is going to be around forever and they think it's reasonable to get back to pre-Covid normal so they are automatically an inconsiderate selfish asshole" is getting a little old.
My SIL required all visitors to be up-to-date on vaccinations when visiting her newborns in 2013 and 2014. Public and many private school kids have long been required to present proof of vaccination, and the military has long ordered a huge panel of vaccines for enlisted members. Immunocompromised people and their families have long requested that others not visit if sick or unvaccinated. The difference now is that we have a recently introduced, highly contagious, and rapidly mutating virus. I reiterate that we're not back to normal yet, whatever that means. More than 200K cases on Christmas Day, when many normal testing facilities were closed, and 4,500 canceled flights worldwide over the last weekend is not normal.
I don't think a person deciding that they don't want the additional risk of inviting an unvaccinated person into their private home = losing friends and family over vaccination status. That seems to be a false equivalence for dramatic effect. It's the unvaccinated person's choice to refuse the vaccine and accept the consequences of that choice, and everyone else's choice to decide their own level of risk exposure. Is that freedom to decide for oneself not what you wanted? In my own case, I do not care to entertain unvaccinated people in my home in the current major wave. If they choose to be vaccinated, they will be welcomed. When the wave subsides, I will reconsider my stance based on the best available information. Should I not have the right to make such decisions in my own home, just because my decisions might make someone else feel bad about the consequences of their own free choices? Should business owners not have the choice to decide how much risk from potentially unvaccinated customers they will require their employees to tolerate?
It really is coming across as though you want the freedom to make your own choices but don't feel that others should have the same freedom. I do hope I've misread several of your posts.
I want the freedom to make my own choices and I want the same for others... Plain and simple. What I wish would go back to the way things were before Covid was the general lack of care regarding this new extremely hot button issue of someone's vaccination status. I'm not saying we should FORCE people to no longer care. As mentioned before that's their choice and I'm good with that, I just crave the good old days where everyone just went to the Christmas party, we didn't have to second guess whether our veterinarian or hairdresser's vaccination policy was actually true, or you just walked into the restaurant or crossed that boarder without having to show your card. I personally believe the majority will get back to this at some point in time, but there will be many who will be extremely cautious for the rest of their lives... and that will be their choice that no one should take from them.
UK is significantly more vaccinated than the US but more than 2x the rate of covid spread and 85% of those dying in UK are vaccinated.
So the consistent theme that seems to run through almost all of these "return to normal" scenarios is a desire to have fewer limitations and more freedom for each individual to choose what's right for them.
Based on these responses, it seems like most people want the freedom to choose to stay home if they're sick. They want to work remotely if possible, but having an option to work onsite appeals to many as well. They want to be able to wear a mask, or not wear a mask in public as they see fit, or go into stores/restaurants, or easily pick items up curbside or have them delivered, or travel freely.
Although we each prioritize differently, fewer restrictions and more flexibility seems to be enjoyed by pretty much everybody.
Here I once again see a less charitable picture. It's not back to normal if a significant number of us take voluntary precautions that didn't exist before. Your freedom is limited if a restaurant owner decides to check your vaccine status to protect their staff, or your family refuses to let you in their house without a covid test. Proponents of back to normal are pushing back on all of this, are pushing on others to accept the higher level of risk.
So both "no going back" and "back to normal" approaches are coercive. The former is openly, honestly coercive, justifying it by the needs of society. The latter is in denial about the coercion aspect, talking instead exclusively about freedom.
UK is significantly more vaccinated than the US but more than 2x the rate of covid spread and 85% of those dying in UK are vaccinated.
Highly misleading stat for deaths in the UK there. The official vaccinated/unvaccinated UK covid19 death stats are here -
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween1januaryand31october2021#monthly-age-standardised-mortality-rates-by-vaccination-status-deaths-involving-covid-19
"Over the whole period (1 January to 31 October 2021), the age-adjusted risk of deaths involving COVID-19 was 96% lower in people who had received a second dose at least 21 days ago compared with unvaccinated people."
It is a problem because you can't say it is less harmful (which btw include long COVID not just hospitalizations, things like brain fog, heart and lung damage) when you are looking at people who are vaccinated. You can say that vaccines plus this variant are less likely (they think) to cause hospitalizations nothing more. People are jumping from that to less virulent/less harmful and they are not the same thing.Except they did not account for vaccinate status in this.Omicron scares me due to its transmissibility, but thankfully early data indicates its slightly less deadly than Delta.
I saw this today (https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-booster-offers-substantial-protection-against-symptomatic-infection-with-omicron-study-finds-11640191103). That states "markedly lower risk of hospitalization... The University of Edinburgh study, drawing on the health records of 5.4 million people in Scotland, found the risk of hospitalization with Covid-19 was two-thirds lower with Omicron than with Delta." Of course the catch being that if three times as many people get it then it's a wash.
Yes, but I'm not sure why that it a problem in their study design. They do talk about relative vaccine efficacy if you are interested, the full paper is here: https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/245818096/Severity_of_Omicron_variant_of_concern_and_vaccine_effectiveness_against_symptomatic_disease.pdf
My SIL required all visitors to be up-to-date on vaccinations when visiting her newborns in 2013 and 2014. Public and many private school kids have long been required to present proof of vaccination, and the military has long ordered a huge panel of vaccines for enlisted members. Immunocompromised people and their families have long requested that others not visit if sick or unvaccinated. The difference now is that we have a recently introduced, highly contagious, and rapidly mutating virus. I reiterate that we're not back to normal yet, whatever that means. More than 200K cases on Christmas Day, when many normal testing facilities were closed, and 4,500 canceled flights worldwide over the last weekend is not normal.
I don't think a person deciding that they don't want the additional risk of inviting an unvaccinated person into their private home = losing friends and family over vaccination status. That seems to be a false equivalence for dramatic effect. It's the unvaccinated person's choice to refuse the vaccine and accept the consequences of that choice, and everyone else's choice to decide their own level of risk exposure. Is that freedom to decide for oneself not what you wanted? In my own case, I do not care to entertain unvaccinated people in my home in the current major wave. If they choose to be vaccinated, they will be welcomed. When the wave subsides, I will reconsider my stance based on the best available information. Should I not have the right to make such decisions in my own home, just because my decisions might make someone else feel bad about the consequences of their own free choices? Should business owners not have the choice to decide how much risk from potentially unvaccinated customers they will require their employees to tolerate?
It really is coming across as though you want the freedom to make your own choices but don't feel that others should have the same freedom. I do hope I've misread several of your posts.
UK is significantly more vaccinated than the US but more than 2x the rate of covid spread and 85% of those dying in UK are vaccinated.
Highly misleading stat for deaths in the UK there. The official vaccinated/unvaccinated UK covid19 death stats are here -
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween1januaryand31october2021#monthly-age-standardised-mortality-rates-by-vaccination-status-deaths-involving-covid-19
"Over the whole period (1 January to 31 October 2021), the age-adjusted risk of deaths involving COVID-19 was 96% lower in people who had received a second dose at least 21 days ago compared with unvaccinated people."
In the last 3 months, 85% of those who have died in the UK are vaccinated and cases in the UK are double what they were last winter before vaccines at all.
They really aren't even a vaccine as they don't prevent you from getting it, it simply reduces your risk of dying from it
The early data is even suggesting the boosters are only good vs Omicron for about 10 weeks and then may actually enhance the probability to get it.Which “early data suggests that boosters increase the probability of contracting Covid? Because this completely contradicts every single peer-reviewed report I have seen thus far.
In the last 3 months, 85% of those who have died in the UK are vaccinated and cases in the UK are double what they were last winter before vaccines at all. My point is the vaccines are not going to end the pandemic. They really aren't even a vaccine as they don't prevent you from getting it, it simply reduces your risk of dying from it - definitely worth taking if you are > 50 or have comorbidities, but saying "if only everyone was vaccinated this would be over" is flat out incorrect.
... I'm not willing to give up freedoms on a society wide level to maybe improve the risk level of somebody, somewhere from suffering what's very likely to be a minor cold by an amount that cannot be calculated.
Hmmm. I know we're in different countries / health care systems. Here, society wide measures are to protect the health care system, in the main. I think it's worth protecting. But then, I'm over 60 with parents in mid-80s and many loved ones of varying ages and behaviours. I'd prefer we all have access to good care for now and for years to come.
Overloaded healthcare systems are bad news for sure. I don't see a reason to restrict people that have taken precautions to reduce their risk of using the healthcare system so that people that have not taken the opportunity can go about their lives as normal and then end up overloading the healthcare system. The vaccinated are not the ones overloading the system. If we're going to restrict a large part of the populace to avoid overloading the medical system I'd propose starting with the groups most at risk of causing the overloading.
Overloaded healthcare systems are bad news for sure. I don't see a reason to restrict people that have taken precautions to reduce their risk of using the healthcare system so that people that have not taken the opportunity can go about their lives as normal and then end up overloading the healthcare system. The vaccinated are not the ones overloading the system. If we're going to restrict a large part of the populace to avoid overloading the medical system I'd propose starting with the groups most at risk of causing the overloading.
Absolutely. Put the voluntarily unvaccinated at the back of the line when triage is needed. Let the stubbornly ignorant pay the price for their stupidity, not the innocent.
Selfishness and greed on top of what should have been short-duration vaccine shortages has kept the bulk of the world from getting vaccinated, and willful stupidity has kept large swaths of the US unvaccinated. So everyone will probably end up getting it at some point. God damn the willfully stupid and the greedy who made this situation so very much worse.
I sure don't want to get it when the healthcare system is overwhelmed. If we get bad sick from covid I want the healthcare system fully able to treat us. Plus, the longer the disease spreads around the less virulent it is (likely) to become and the more skilled the medical practitioners will be in treating it, so later is better than earlier.
I read this article (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/why-more-americans-are-saying-they-e2-80-99re-e2-80-98vaxxed-and-done-e2-80-99/ar-AASCp58) and was impressed with how well it captured the arguments from this thread. Guess this forum does as good of the job as The Atlantic!
... house mice are notorious pests and I really don't like to think of them as a reservoir species. Still better than camels.
https://peterattiamd.com/covid-19-current-state-omicron/
Excellent and fair discussion of Covid policies and where are we headed.
Walking and generally exercising more now than in the past, but balancing things out by eating more ice cream at night.
I normally go to a board game convention in early March. In 2020, it happened just before lockdowns started, and it got cancelled in 2021. This year, they are requiring masks, even for the fully vaccinated. I don't think that I would enjoy trying to talk through a mask while playing board games, so I'll unfortunately be missing out in 2022.
Grew tired of being angry with the antivax/anti mask crowd. Moved on.
Stopped watching CNN with their unintentionally comic “Breaking News” on Covid. Latest Fauci tweet or whatever. We all know now that social media and TV news companies work to keep us angry so we “stay tuned”. So over it.
Disappointed with CDC et al. Heartened by the never-ending support from our medical pros.
I'm wondering if the Omicron variant will prove to be the catalyst that transitions us from pandemic to endemic.
Stopped watching CNN with their unintentionally comic “Breaking News” on Covid. Latest Fauci tweet or whatever. We all know now that social media and TV news companies work to keep us angry so we “stay tuned”. So over it.This is so true! I spent 2 weeks on v/k in a condo with my parents, and they have CNN, etc. on all the time as just background noise, whereas I read news articles online mostly. After a few days, my anxiety about this stuff was so much higher than it is normally!
Wondering why we don’t all have a drawer full of tests and some pills handy. That’d be nice.The home tests are kind of crap against the new variant. I know so many people who had multiple negative home tests before getting a positive PCR test.
I'm wondering if the Omicron variant will prove to be the catalyst that transitions us from pandemic to endemic.
What's the technical difference between the two? Is it mostly a state of mind at this point? It's obvious COVID is here to stay in some form. This omicron variant is extremely contagious. Policies that require people to isolate themselves for a week or two after a close contact with a COVID carrier just seem super untenable at this point; nobody's going to be left to work in a lot of places that really need workers.
Stopped watching CNN with their unintentionally comic “Breaking News” on Covid. Latest Fauci tweet or whatever. We all know now that social media and TV news companies work to keep us angry so we “stay tuned”. So over it.This is so true! I spent 2 weeks on v/k in a condo with my parents, and they have CNN, etc. on all the time as just background noise, whereas I read news articles online mostly. After a few days, my anxiety about this stuff was so much higher than it is normally!QuoteWondering why we don’t all have a drawer full of tests and some pills handy. That’d be nice.The home tests are kind of crap against the new variant. I know so many people who had multiple negative home tests before getting a positive PCR test.
I'm wondering if the Omicron variant will prove to be the catalyst that transitions us from pandemic to endemic.
What's the technical difference between the two? Is it mostly a state of mind at this point? It's obvious COVID is here to stay in some form. This omicron variant is extremely contagious. Policies that require people to isolate themselves for a week or two after a close contact with a COVID carrier just seem super untenable at this point; nobody's going to be left to work in a lot of places that really need workers.
Endemic is where the disease is everywhere, most of the vulnerable people are either protected by medical science or dead, and we just kind of give up fighting the disease and accept living with it is part of life.
I'm wondering if the Omicron variant will prove to be the catalyst that transitions us from pandemic to endemic.
What's the technical difference between the two? Is it mostly a state of mind at this point? It's obvious COVID is here to stay in some form. This omicron variant is extremely contagious. Policies that require people to isolate themselves for a week or two after a close contact with a COVID carrier just seem super untenable at this point; nobody's going to be left to work in a lot of places that really need workers.
Endemic is where the disease is everywhere, most of the vulnerable people are either protected by medical science or dead, and we just kind of give up fighting the disease and accept living with it is part of life.
I have an alternate definition. Pandemic: Government tells you what you must do and cannot do in order to help stop the spread of a virus. Endemic: Government lets you risk assess and make the decisions for yourself.
"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext
They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator. Alarming.
It just feels weird because we were shut down and had mask mandates when this all started. Now cases are terrible and everyone is just like "oh well, can't do anything about it. Keep moving." The difference is we have vaccines and treatments to keep the vast majority of us from dying.
Stealing from @GuitarStv in another topic:Quote"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext
They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator. Alarming.
With this in mind, I wonder how it changes attitudes on living with Covid now. A lot of "getting back to normal" hinged on the assumption that a healthy younger person has nothing to fear, the only reason to continue limiting ourselves was to care for others.
Now it's clear that Covid hurts even healthy and young, even when symptoms are mild. Not just hurts - it hits the most important asset of many on this forum, our intelligence. It literally makes us dumber.
It may be too late now, of course. The horse is already out of the barn. But I wonder if support for continued containment efforts would have been higher if young, healthy, and smart knew that they were a risk group, too.
Maybe! But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known. I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves. I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?
It just feels weird because we were shut down and had mask mandates when this all started. Now cases are terrible and everyone is just like "oh well, can't do anything about it. Keep moving." The difference is we have vaccines and treatments to keep the vast majority of us from dying.
But it makes sense if the goal the whole time was to prevent or limit the overwhelm on the medical system. Can you imagine if Omicron had been the original strain? None of us vaxxed, no prep at all? So, it isn't totally crazy that the lockdowns and reactions are less severe now that we have better interventions in place to (partially) protect our medical system.Stealing from @GuitarStv in another topic:Quote"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext
They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator. Alarming.
With this in mind, I wonder how it changes attitudes on living with Covid now. A lot of "getting back to normal" hinged on the assumption that a healthy younger person has nothing to fear, the only reason to continue limiting ourselves was to care for others.
Now it's clear that Covid hurts even healthy and young, even when symptoms are mild. Not just hurts - it hits the most important asset of many on this forum, our intelligence. It literally makes us dumber.
It may be too late now, of course. The horse is already out of the barn. But I wonder if support for continued containment efforts would have been higher if young, healthy, and smart knew that they were a risk group, too.
Maybe! But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known. I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves. I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?
Maybe! But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known. I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves. I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?
I'm with you here. One group that may have had a stronger reaction, though, is parents. Especially parents who expect their kids to go to college. Coincidentally, this group has a lot of weight politically.
Maybe! But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known. I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves. I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?
I'm with you here. One group that may have had a stronger reaction, though, is parents. Especially parents who expect their kids to go to college. Coincidentally, this group has a lot of weight politically. "Covid will make Jonny dumber" is a damn potent message.
Maybe! But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known. I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves. I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?
I'm with you here. One group that may have had a stronger reaction, though, is parents. Especially parents who expect their kids to go to college. Coincidentally, this group has a lot of weight politically. "Covid will make Jonny dumber" is a damn potent message.
That's a good point and it reminds me of Zika a few years back. Of course it wasn't nearly as transmissable, but IME people took real care if they were of childbearing age, because they didn't want their kids to be affected. And as @GuitarStv pointed out, the heavy messaging on death early on didn't help. With Zika, I suppose (but can't actually remember?) that there was some talk of risk of death, but the focus from the beginning was on health generally and reproduction specifically. So maybe the focus on death with COVID did have a perverse way of making other effects, which we would normally think of as *very* concerning, seem like NBD.
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.
Stealing from @GuitarStv in another topic:Quote"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext
They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator. Alarming.
With this in mind, I wonder how it changes attitudes on living with Covid now. A lot of "getting back to normal" hinged on the assumption that a healthy younger person has nothing to fear, the only reason to continue limiting ourselves was to care for others.
Now it's clear that Covid hurts even healthy and young, even when symptoms are mild. Not just hurts - it hits the most important asset of many on this forum, our intelligence. It literally makes us dumber.
It may be too late now, of course. The horse is already out of the barn. But I wonder if support for continued containment efforts would have been higher if young, healthy, and smart knew that they were a risk group, too.
I'm wondering if the Omicron variant will prove to be the catalyst that transitions us from pandemic to endemic.
What's the technical difference between the two? Is it mostly a state of mind at this point? It's obvious COVID is here to stay in some form. This omicron variant is extremely contagious. Policies that require people to isolate themselves for a week or two after a close contact with a COVID carrier just seem super untenable at this point; nobody's going to be left to work in a lot of places that really need workers.
Stealing from @GuitarStv in another topic:Quote"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext
They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator. Alarming.
With this in mind, I wonder how it changes attitudes on living with Covid now. A lot of "getting back to normal" hinged on the assumption that a healthy younger person has nothing to fear, the only reason to continue limiting ourselves was to care for others.
Now it's clear that Covid hurts even healthy and young, even when symptoms are mild. Not just hurts - it hits the most important asset of many on this forum, our intelligence. It literally makes us dumber.
It may be too late now, of course. The horse is already out of the barn. But I wonder if support for continued containment efforts would have been higher if young, healthy, and smart knew that they were a risk group, too.
I know the 7 points is described as average, so some people have a greater deficit, but really 7 points is not even statistically significant. The standard deviation for IQ is 15 points, and even someone starting with a solid 100 likely wouldn't notice any difference at all in their daily lives with a loss of 7 points, or probably even with a loss of 15. The higher the starting IQ, the less of a difference it would make. Plus the study was in regard to people on ventilators, which aren't very likely to be the young and not all that many. Covid is not going to cause a widespread plummeting of IQ.
I'm wondering if the Omicron variant will prove to be the catalyst that transitions us from pandemic to endemic.
What's the technical difference between the two? Is it mostly a state of mind at this point? It's obvious COVID is here to stay in some form. This omicron variant is extremely contagious. Policies that require people to isolate themselves for a week or two after a close contact with a COVID carrier just seem super untenable at this point; nobody's going to be left to work in a lot of places that really need workers.
Due to its so contagious, it has been predicted that the majority of people will be infected with Omicron worldwide. For example, I have seen articles forecasting 80% or more of Florida will have been infected with some variation of covid by the end of the omicron surge. Combine this with vaccinations, we get closer to herd immunity. Furthermore, breakthrough infections likely increases protection as well. Combine this with the fact that many are already over it and not really following guidelines anyway, the CDC is likely realizing that their influence is diminishing day-by-day. As we continue to learn how to better treat the virus, get testing more readily available and more people have increased immunity, we are that much closer to living with the virus. Of course, some lethal variant could develop, but I rather take the optimistic view.
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.
Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone? It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten. And the Pfizer trials aren't going well. As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.
Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone? It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten. And the Pfizer trials aren't going well. As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.
Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/
The seasonal flu is not infecting 100k people per day, and in the past localized outbreaks have triggered school closures and similar isolation measures.
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.
Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone? It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten. And the Pfizer trials aren't going well. As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.
Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/
The seasonal flu is not infecting 100k people per day, and in the past localized outbreaks of influenza have triggered school closures and similar isolation measures.
Sars-CoV2 has been found in people's brain, it effects your neurons. You are ignoring the long term damage to the central nervous system. As a neuroscientist I can tell you that your bolded statement is false. We do not know the extent of the neuronal damage, but we know there is damage.I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.
Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone? It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten. And the Pfizer trials aren't going well. As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.
Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.
Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone? It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten. And the Pfizer trials aren't going well. As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.
Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/
The seasonal flu is not infecting 100k people per day, and in the past localized outbreaks of influenza have triggered school closures and similar isolation measures.
That's why Ontario is sending kids back to school next week. Concern that the record high numbers of hospitalizations and emergency room numbers might have a chance to wane.
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.
Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone? It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten. And the Pfizer trials aren't going well. As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.
Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/
The seasonal flu is not infecting 100k people per day, and in the past localized outbreaks of influenza have triggered school closures and similar isolation measures.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/i-want-my-life-back-fear-covid/621214/
An interesting opinion piece
And let us not forget that children as young as six months are eligible for seasonal flu vaccines. But again, nothing for kids under 5 yet for COVID.
And let us not forget that children as young as six months are eligible for seasonal flu vaccines. But again, nothing for kids under 5 yet for COVID.
But it wasn't recommended for them until 2002/2010 (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/pandemic-timeline-1930-and-beyond.htm). How did I make it through school?
But I do agree that the current surge is unprecedented and warrants special caution.
In 2016 and, then, again in 2018, I got the flu really bad. Since then, I've started getting the yearly flu shot. Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.
As others in this thread have stated, above, short of complete isolation, which we already know is not good for children, there's little that can be done to prevent getting infected by Omicron. Read the posts above describing people who are doing everything humanly possible to try to not get covid - including wearing masks around, all day long, in their own houses - and, yet, they're still getting sick. If your kids have significant comorbidities that put them at risk for bad outcomes from covid, you need to completely isolate them from any other human beings, or else, you just need to accept the fact that they're going to end up getting covid, eventually. Healthy kids are more at risk driving in a car from home to a vaccination site than just letting them develop immunity by getting infected and recovering naturally.
Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/i-want-my-life-back-fear-covid/621214/
An interesting opinion piece
That was good.
It may have been you who posted it in this thread or maybe another. If so, sorry. But, this discussion (https://peterattiamd.com/covid-19-current-state-omicron/) on Covid was pretty good. It's pretty long and already 2 weeks old, but Peter Attia and his two guests are all MDs, who seem pretty smart. I liked their nuanced take on covid.
protein intake
protein intake
Exercise and sleep are important to your immune system. I've never seen any research indicating that high protein intake (beyond the very low RDAs) is of benefit though.
I think there are just some people that are more prone to get sick from respiratory viruses than others. I have a friend and every time I talk to him either him, his wife or his kid are sick. On the other hand I've been sick 3 times since I was ~12. I don't remember being a sick kid before then, though, just don't have vivid memories of being sick, like I do after. I got the flu when I was in 6th grade because I remember I had to skip our family Thanksgiving. Then the summer of my junior year I got something that resembled mono, it pissed me off because I had to test out my lifts for varsity football during that time and I had no energy or strength. Then about 10 years ago we traveled down to Florida for a friends wedding and I got basically no sleep with the wedding and the driving through the night, etc. that when I got back I had a pretty bad 24 hour bug. Other than that outside of occasional sniffles, which don't hinder my ability to do anything I've gotten nothing. So, 3 times in about 27 years. I also never got the flu shot, I figured if it ain't broke don't fix it, but I actually did get it this year, just to be a good citizen. My best guess is it's a combination of exercise, protein intake, and sleep, but that's literally just a guess.
I think there are just some people that are more prone to get sick from respiratory viruses than others. I have a friend and every time I talk to him either him, his wife or his kid are sick. On the other hand I've been sick 3 times since I was ~12. I don't remember being a sick kid before then, though, just don't have vivid memories of being sick, like I do after. I got the flu when I was in 6th grade because I remember I had to skip our family Thanksgiving. Then the summer of my junior year I got something that resembled mono, it pissed me off because I had to test out my lifts for varsity football during that time and I had no energy or strength. Then about 10 years ago we traveled down to Florida for a friends wedding and I got basically no sleep with the wedding and the driving through the night, etc. that when I got back I had a pretty bad 24 hour bug. Other than that outside of occasional sniffles, which don't hinder my ability to do anything I've gotten nothing. So, 3 times in about 27 years. I also never got the flu shot, I figured if it ain't broke don't fix it, but I actually did get it this year, just to be a good citizen. My best guess is it's a combination of exercise, protein intake, and sleep, but that's literally just a guess.
How often do your kids get sick?
I think there are just some people that are more prone to get sick from respiratory viruses than others. I have a friend and every time I talk to him either him, his wife or his kid are sick. On the other hand I've been sick 3 times since I was ~12. I don't remember being a sick kid before then, though, just don't have vivid memories of being sick, like I do after. I got the flu when I was in 6th grade because I remember I had to skip our family Thanksgiving. Then the summer of my junior year I got something that resembled mono, it pissed me off because I had to test out my lifts for varsity football during that time and I had no energy or strength. Then about 10 years ago we traveled down to Florida for a friends wedding and I got basically no sleep with the wedding and the driving through the night, etc. that when I got back I had a pretty bad 24 hour bug. Other than that outside of occasional sniffles, which don't hinder my ability to do anything I've gotten nothing. So, 3 times in about 27 years. I also never got the flu shot, I figured if it ain't broke don't fix it, but I actually did get it this year, just to be a good citizen. My best guess is it's a combination of exercise, protein intake, and sleep, but that's literally just a guess.
How often do your kids get sick?
I always hate these anecdotal [ETA: survivorship] arguments.I'm sure there's a fallacy name for it.The people who died from not wearing a car seat belt aren't around to post saying it's a bad idea to skip the car seats. The people who died from the flu aren't around to post how beneficial a vaccine would have been.
FWIW, I get a flu shot every year as do my kids, and I did this before COVID.
I always hate these anecdotal [ETA: survivorship] arguments.I'm sure there's a fallacy name for it.The people who died from not wearing a car seat belt aren't around to post saying it's a bad idea to skip the car seats. The people who died from the flu aren't around to post how beneficial a vaccine would have been.
I'm not conceived that historical comparisons are survivorship bias. I'm not saying "I didn't have access to an FDA approved flu shot as a kid therefore I don't give the FDA approved flu shot to my kids today." I'm saying "no one had access to it and life went on" (but I was snarky about it, sorry about that).
I always hate these anecdotal [ETA: survivorship] arguments.I'm sure there's a fallacy name for it.The people who died from not wearing a car seat belt aren't around to post saying it's a bad idea to skip the car seats. The people who died from the flu aren't around to post how beneficial a vaccine would have been.
I'm not conceived that historical comparisons are survivorship bias. I'm not saying "I didn't have access to an FDA approved flu shot as a kid therefore I don't give the FDA approved flu shot to my kids today." I'm saying "no one had access to it and life went on" (but I was snarky about it, sorry about that).
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.
Which I literally agreed with you in this thread. But to say that once SARS-CoV-2 becomes endemic we should be terrified because there isn't an FDA approved vaccine for the 6m-5y crowd is not a stance I am willing to take if the childhood mortality remains very low.
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.
Which I literally agreed with you in this thread. But to say that once SARS-CoV-2 becomes endemic we should be terrified because there isn't an FDA approved vaccine for the 6m-5y crowd is not a stance I am willing to take if the childhood mortality remains very low.
To confirm I understand you, you only care if children die, but not if they have life long health consequences from long-COVID, the yet undetermined decrease in IQ, the potential increase in diabetes, etc.?
I posted it above. I'm not asking you to agree with it, but please consider reading this so you at least understand where parents of under 5 are at:
https://slate.com/technology/2022/01/kids-under-5-vaccine-parents.html
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.
Which I literally agreed with you in this thread. But to say that once SARS-CoV-2 becomes endemic we should be terrified because there isn't an FDA approved vaccine for the 6m-5y crowd is not a stance I am willing to take if the childhood mortality remains very low.
To confirm I understand you, you only care if children die, but not if they have life long health consequences from long-COVID, the yet undetermined decrease in IQ, the potential increase in diabetes, etc.?
I posted it above. I'm not asking you to agree with it, but please consider reading this so you at least understand where parents of under 5 are at:
https://slate.com/technology/2022/01/kids-under-5-vaccine-parents.html?fbclid=IwAR34C-cN4_5xfegwiJhgDQWtEVg2a5ELj8cJjqqmR85A2ckv_MNb7Jvb5yY
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.
Which I literally agreed with you in this thread. But to say that once SARS-CoV-2 becomes endemic we should be terrified because there isn't an FDA approved vaccine for the 6m-5y crowd is not a stance I am willing to take if the childhood mortality remains very low.
To confirm I understand you, you only care if children die, but not if they have life long health consequences from long-COVID, the yet undetermined decrease in IQ, the potential increase in diabetes, etc.?
I posted it above. I'm not asking you to agree with it, but please consider reading this so you at least understand where parents of under 5 are at:
https://slate.com/technology/2022/01/kids-under-5-vaccine-parents.html?fbclid=IwAR34C-cN4_5xfegwiJhgDQWtEVg2a5ELj8cJjqqmR85A2ckv_MNb7Jvb5yY
I always wonder if people who say “Oh, it’s just the flu!” ever really had the flu. I vividly remember the winter when I and my 3 kids had influenza A. We were in bed for a week, and it wasn’t the fun kind of sick where you watch tv, it was the kind where you take some me Tylenol and drink some juice and go back to sleep. One of the kids was exhausted for weeks.
Frankly, right now I’m missing the “normal” we had in September.
I always wonder if people who say “Oh, it’s just the flu!” ever really had the flu. I vividly remember the winter when I and my 3 kids had influenza A. We were in bed for a week, and it wasn’t the fun kind of sick where you watch tv, it was the kind where you take some me Tylenol and drink some juice and go back to sleep. One of the kids was exhausted for weeks.
Frankly, right now I’m missing the “normal” we had in September.
Yeah, I think a lot of people think a bad cold with a fever is the flu.
If you have really had the flu, you would know it 100% without a doubt.
I always wonder if people who say “Oh, it’s just the flu!” ever really had the flu. I vividly remember the winter when I and my 3 kids had influenza A. We were in bed for a week, and it wasn’t the fun kind of sick where you watch tv, it was the kind where you take some me Tylenol and drink some juice and go back to sleep. One of the kids was exhausted for weeks.
Frankly, right now I’m missing the “normal” we had in September.
and that preventing an outbreak is worth the downsides of so much time away from the school.
and that preventing an outbreak is worth the downsides of so much time away from the school.
After they removed the mask mandate for 3 weeks, we had a daycare outbreak that impacted 25+ people that I know of and shut the whole school down, so yeah, I have Opinions.
That said there is no quarantine for domestic travel at my school. (But we're not traveling anyways so that doesn't really affect us.) But doesn't it make sense to stay away if you've been exposed to anyone with a highly infectious disease or are sick? I'm not seeing why that part is an issue.
I always wonder if people who say “Oh, it’s just the flu!” ever really had the flu. I vividly remember the winter when I and my 3 kids had influenza A. We were in bed for a week, and it wasn’t the fun kind of sick where you watch tv, it was the kind where you take some me Tylenol and drink some juice and go back to sleep. One of the kids was exhausted for weeks.
Frankly, right now I’m missing the “normal” we had in September.
Yeah, I think a lot of people think a bad cold with a fever is the flu.
If you have really had the flu, you would know it 100% without a doubt.
Hi folks with very young kids-
just skimming this thread and noted the concern about the 5 and unders that can't be vaccinated with a covid vaccine yet and wanted to offer this: There is strong evidence showing that the MMR vaccine provides a significant degree of cross-immunity to covid. If you've followed the vaccine schedule your child has a level of protection even without the covid vaccine.
https://snohc.com/can-the-mmr-vaccine-protect-you-against-covid-19/
I always wonder if people who say “Oh, it’s just the flu!” ever really had the flu. I vividly remember the winter when I and my 3 kids had influenza A. We were in bed for a week, and it wasn’t the fun kind of sick where you watch tv, it was the kind where you take some me Tylenol and drink some juice and go back to sleep. One of the kids was exhausted for weeks.
Frankly, right now I’m missing the “normal” we had in September.
Yeah, I think a lot of people think a bad cold with a fever is the flu.
If you have really had the flu, you would know it 100% without a doubt.
There is also a great disconnect with what is considered “mild to moderate illness.”
When the medical community describes an illness, they are talking about your body’s systems and their capacity to keep you alive. An illness can give you a head-splitting headache, leave you out of breath after climbing a single thought of stairs, be accompanied by a persistent cough and runny nose and basically leave a person confined to their bedroom sleeping 16 hours a day for several days and that level off illness would be considered “mild-to moderate” simply because there was nothing about it which was life threatening or permanent.
On the other hand, most people would consider that to be “debilitating” and “sick as a dog” because they were unable to move about and live as normal, and their symptoms were quite painful and unpleasant.
At this point in the fight against covid (with the advent of the Omicron variant), immunization doesn't really control the spread of the disease. It therefore seems unlikely that immunizing lots of people in lots of countries will significantly hinder the virus from mutating.
The purpose of immunization is to reduce deaths and stress on the hospitals.
At this point in the fight against covid (with the advent of the Omicron variant), immunization doesn't really control the spread of the disease. It therefore seems unlikely that immunizing lots of people in lots of countries will significantly hinder the virus from mutating.
The purpose of immunization is to reduce deaths and stress on the hospitals.
It reduces viral load, therefore reducing mutation opportunity as the virus divides significantly less.
Another totally uneducated suspicion is that a virus will not mutate the same when it can penetrate all the way to the lungs and stay there for weeks vs when vax-boosted immune system kills it off well before that.
Another totally uneducated suspicion is that a virus will not mutate the same when it can penetrate all the way to the lungs and stay there for weeks vs when vax-boosted immune system kills it off well before that.
Mutation is a replication error. If the virus replicates enough times it will mutate. The mode of infection doesn't really matter. The ability of the mutation to infect someone else definately matters though. Vaccines are also a benefit in that they reduce the length of time a person is infected reducing chance of transmission of the mutation. (Remdesivir, monoclonal antibodies, and likely the new antivirals being produced should also help on this front.)
Another totally uneducated suspicion is that a virus will not mutate the same when it can penetrate all the way to the lungs and stay there for weeks vs when vax-boosted immune system kills it off well before that.
Mutation is a replication error. If the virus replicates enough times it will mutate. The mode of infection doesn't really matter. The ability of the mutation to infect someone else definately matters though. Vaccines are also a benefit in that they reduce the length of time a person is infected reducing chance of transmission of the mutation. (Remdesivir, monoclonal antibodies, and likely the new antivirals being produced should also help on this front.)
I'm not talking about mode of infection, though. I'm talking about length of time virus stays (and replicates) in one body. That higher length of time should lead to a higher number of replications, thus increasing a chance of a successful mutation.
Which is where a vaccine should be helpful. Shorter time to replicate in one host * shorter period a host is infectious = lower overall chance of a successful mutation, no?
However, one of the new antivirals works by causing replication errors and there is some concern among clinicians that overuse may lead to new variants…
(I am not the person to explain this, but I did listen to an explanation from someone who is.)
In 2016 and, then, again in 2018, I got the flu really bad. Since then, I've started getting the yearly flu shot. Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.
It was bound to happen sooner or later, our family has covid in all sorts of different stages right now. I tested positive with a rapid this morning have developing a sore throat and headache last night. I think it came from one of our kids at school. From the symptoms I am nearly certain its Omi
That sucks, hope it resolves with time. try Benadryl at night if Zyrtec isn’t enough. Another thing to try is Pepcid or another H2 blocker. Either way, see a dermatologist at some point, too. I’m sure you’ve been told all this, but just in case you haven’t.
First time I ever got a flu shot was when I was 50 years old. Since then, I've gotten vaccinated every year. Not 'claiming' anything. Just stating a fact. What would there be to 'rebut'?In 2016 and, then, again in 2018, I got the flu really bad. Since then, I've started getting the yearly flu shot. Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.
I noticed that not even a single dead person from the estimated ~20M flu deaths over the past 50 years has rebutted your claim yet. Check-mate you pro-vaccine idiots.
First time I ever got a flu shot was when I was 50 years old. Since then, I've gotten vaccinated every year. Not 'claiming' anything. Just stating a fact. What would there be to 'rebut'?In 2016 and, then, again in 2018, I got the flu really bad. Since then, I've started getting the yearly flu shot. Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.
I noticed that not even a single dead person from the estimated ~20M flu deaths over the past 50 years has rebutted your claim yet. Check-mate you pro-vaccine idiots.
My answer to "where I stand on living with Covid" has shifted slightly, as it seems that I am probably on the list of those with Long Covid. (According to the doctor, there isn't really a formal definition of Long Covid, other than just basically "some lingering symptoms lasting weeks or longer after the illness has passed and the infection cleared.")OMG. I have Dermatographia too! As far as I know I never had COVID. The hives started a week after my booster shot. Initial case of hives was horrible, even my ears swelled. I went to Urgent Care and was given a shot of Benedryl and Steroids and then a week of steroids. As soon as I finished the steroids they started back up again. I am managing with Zyrtec plus a Benadryl on the nights it gets bad. It’s been almost 2 months and I’m just starting to see long periods without outbreaks of miserable hives.
That sounds dramatic, but really it is more weird and irritating than anything. Now, I didn't actually get a Covid test when I was sick. They were starting to be hard to find and I didn't think knowing for sure was actionable, since I could easily stay home and isolate. So I won't be on any actual accounting, if there was such a thing. But I was pretty sure it was Covid, and my doctor thinks it was as well (after the fact) based on the timing, symptoms, and the Weird Thing, which is inflammation-related and Covid is known for being inflame-y.
It seems I have dermatographia, aka 'skin writing'. It's an inflammation reaction, most commonly caused as the result of an infection. Can last weeks or months. Basically, my skin gets really itchy (like the worst mosquito bites ever; it is sort of a hot itch, different than just a usually itch one experiences). If I scratch it--not hard, just like one would for a normal itch--or even just bump it, there is a shooting fire under my skin. Like someone has injected burning oil and it is spreading. But the really freaky part is that a few minutes later, angry, hot, red welts appear in the exact pattern of the contact. I can run a fingernail fairly gently over my arm in the shape of letters and 5 minutes later, I'll have an angry-looking red word appear on my arm in raised letters. It will also hurt.
I was sick for about a week, and this started at the end of that week.
Thankfully, it has been well-managed with Zyrtec, though my sense is that the Zyrtec is lasting less and less time, and where I used to be able to take every other day, now at the end of the day, just before the next dose, I'm feeling itchy again and occasionally get the welts (which Doc says are a form of hives). That's a bit concerning because without the Zyrtec, it is entirely miserable. Like, I don't quite know how I'd function. But we aren't to that point and I'm hoping we never get there, and that if we do, there is something else or a higher dose of Zyrtec's active ingredient, or something else. I'm also taking Quercetin, a supplement known to help with inflammation, suggested by my doc as a "can't hurt" thing.
Really, I'm fine. As long as the Zyrtec continues to work, it's just a minor annoyance, really. But maybe it is also a reminder that there are so many things with this disease that we just don't know or understand. And that "very few healthy people are dying" isn't the only factor we need to consider.
(FTR, I am fully vaxxed and boosted. I got sick before the booster's full efficacy was in effect, if that matters.)
Maybe when you and FrugalNacho were growing up it was normal to get flu shots every year. I honestly never knew anyone who ever got vaccinated for the flu, until I was well into my thirties and had a friend who worked as an ER nurse. My not getting a flu vaccine was never a political statement. It certainly wasn't because I thought anyone who got a flu shot was a 'pro-vaccine idiot.' It just never occurred to me that a flu vaccine was something that a young, healthy person, who didn't work in healthcare, needed. Right around the time I turned 50, I got the flu pretty bad, a couple of times, and that's when I started getting the yearly shot. Probably, I'll keep getting it every year for the rest of my life. If I can avoid it, I don't want to get that sick again.First time I ever got a flu shot was when I was 50 years old. Since then, I've gotten vaccinated every year. Not 'claiming' anything. Just stating a fact. What would there be to 'rebut'?In 2016 and, then, again in 2018, I got the flu really bad. Since then, I've started getting the yearly flu shot. Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.
I noticed that not even a single dead person from the estimated ~20M flu deaths over the past 50 years has rebutted your claim yet. Check-mate you pro-vaccine idiots.
I believe that FrugalNacho was trying to point out the survivor bias in the statement he responded to.
I’m low 40s and I started getting the flu shot at my first job after college. They held a flu clinic, it was easy to go so I did. I think I missed the few years I was in grad school, but started again afterwards through work. Once I was pregnant with my first I made sure to get it every year though (and started getting some out of work) and not miss one by accident.
I don’t worry about anyone in my family dying from COVID. I worry about long COVID. We don’t really understand I right now or the long term consequences.
This, 1,000% vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
"I don’t worry about anyone in my family dying from COVID. I worry about long COVID. We don’t really understand I right now or the long term consequences."
This, 1,000% vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
"I don’t worry about anyone in my family dying from COVID. I worry about long COVID. We don’t really understand I right now or the long term consequences."
This, 1,000% vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
"I don’t worry about anyone in my family dying from COVID. I worry about long COVID. We don’t really understand I right now or the long term consequences."
This is where I am, too. A person I graduated HS with (same class) was vaxed (not boosted), but got Covid anyway. He was in the hospital for almost a month, and then after another month of therapy, his lungs are now at 75% capacity. And that’s as good as he’s gonna get. Forever.
Ditto on long covid. It freaks me out. I know of at least two people who are adjusting their career paths because of it. I have a pretty small social circle so the number of people I know who have died, been hospitalized, or been long term affected really seems like a lot to me.+1000
One person feels unable to continue her career and is trying to figure out how to retire early. She caught covid from her eye doctor back in May of 2020 and is still not okay. She has shown a marked cognitive decline and she is only in her mid 50s. She had a "mild" case and was never hospitalized.
Another friend is a full time gigging singer and her breath support is shot 3 months later. She can't currently sing at the level required of her. She is pulling out of her spring and summer contracts. She had a case that felt like a mild flu. She is sure she caught it at her church job.
My niece and her boyfriend have covid. He's unvaxxed and pretty sick, she's vaxxed and asymptomatic. She only tested because she was exposed to him. No one else in the household tested positive. They are having a birthday party with the whole family (9 people minimum) despite her being positive. We were invited but obviously declined. Also the entire family has been going about their daily lives and going to stores and whatnot even as they were awaiting test results.
My niece and her boyfriend have covid. He's unvaxxed and pretty sick, she's vaxxed and asymptomatic. She only tested because she was exposed to him. No one else in the household tested positive. They are having a birthday party with the whole family (9 people minimum) despite her being positive. We were invited but obviously declined. Also the entire family has been going about their daily lives and going to stores and whatnot even as they were awaiting test results.That is insane. I must be naive but I honestly didn’t know people did this.
My niece and her boyfriend have covid. He's unvaxxed and pretty sick, she's vaxxed and asymptomatic. She only tested because she was exposed to him. No one else in the household tested positive. They are having a birthday party with the whole family (9 people minimum) despite her being positive. We were invited but obviously declined. Also the entire family has been going about their daily lives and going to stores and whatnot even as they were awaiting test results.That is insane. I must be naive but I honestly didn’t know people did this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My niece and her boyfriend have covid. He's unvaxxed and pretty sick, she's vaxxed and asymptomatic. She only tested because she was exposed to him. No one else in the household tested positive. They are having a birthday party with the whole family (9 people minimum) despite her being positive. We were invited but obviously declined. Also the entire family has been going about their daily lives and going to stores and whatnot even as they were awaiting test results.
unbelievable.
My niece and her boyfriend have covid. He's unvaxxed and pretty sick, she's vaxxed and asymptomatic. She only tested because she was exposed to him. No one else in the household tested positive. They are having a birthday party with the whole family (9 people minimum) despite her being positive. We were invited but obviously declined. Also the entire family has been going about their daily lives and going to stores and whatnot even as they were awaiting test results.That is insane. I must be naive but I honestly didn’t know people did this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This, 1,000% vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
"I don’t worry about anyone in my family dying from COVID. I worry about long COVID. We don’t really understand I right now or the long term consequences."
Just wanted to remind everyone that the beginning of this topic was, like, 90% "screw everything, I'm going back to normal".
We had what, three waves already? Four? After each wave, we dropped precautions. We treated each wave as the final one.
It seems pretty clear to me that good times between the waves are exactly when we have to *keep* precautions.
We had what, three waves already? Four? After each wave, we dropped precautions. We treated each wave as the final one.
It seems pretty clear to me that good times between the waves are exactly when we have to *keep* precautions.
Which... like... has kind of seemed obvious to me from the beginning?
I honestly don't get it.
We had what, three waves already? Four? After each wave, we dropped precautions. We treated each wave as the final one.
It seems pretty clear to me that good times between the waves are exactly when we have to *keep* precautions.
My niece and her boyfriend have covid. He's unvaxxed and pretty sick, she's vaxxed and asymptomatic. She only tested because she was exposed to him. No one else in the household tested positive. They are having a birthday party with the whole family (9 people minimum) despite her being positive. We were invited but obviously declined. Also the entire family has been going about their daily lives and going to stores and whatnot even as they were awaiting test results.That is insane. I must be naive but I honestly didn’t know people did this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Which precautions do you want to keep?
School closures, business closures, and preventing gatherings do a lot of damage to people when they're in place and not absolutely necessary. Mask mandates make more sense if we can do away with pointless security pageantry mask wearing rules (wearing a mask to walk to a table in a restaurant, then taking it off when you sit down to eat, for example).
We had what, three waves already? Four? After each wave, we dropped precautions. We treated each wave as the final one.
It seems pretty clear to me that good times between the waves are exactly when we have to *keep* precautions.
Which... like... has kind of seemed obvious to me from the beginning?
I honestly don't get it.
Coworker got her positive test back on Tuesday and is subbing in a classroom today (5 days). She only wears cloth masks.
Maybe when you and FrugalNacho were growing up it was normal to get flu shots every year. I honestly never knew anyone who ever got vaccinated for the flu, until I was well into my thirties and had a friend who worked as an ER nurse. My not getting a flu vaccine was never a political statement. It certainly wasn't because I thought anyone who got a flu shot was a 'pro-vaccine idiot.' It just never occurred to me that a flu vaccine was something that a young, healthy person, who didn't work in healthcare, needed. Right around the time I turned 50, I got the flu pretty bad, a couple of times, and that's when I started getting the yearly shot. Probably, I'll keep getting it every year for the rest of my life. If I can avoid it, I don't want to get that sick again.First time I ever got a flu shot was when I was 50 years old. Since then, I've gotten vaccinated every year. Not 'claiming' anything. Just stating a fact. What would there be to 'rebut'?In 2016 and, then, again in 2018, I got the flu really bad. Since then, I've started getting the yearly flu shot. Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.
I noticed that not even a single dead person from the estimated ~20M flu deaths over the past 50 years has rebutted your claim yet. Check-mate you pro-vaccine idiots.
I believe that FrugalNacho was trying to point out the survivor bias in the statement he responded to.
I'm not sure it made a big difference in how hard it hit us, for example, vs. Florida.
Coworker got her positive test back on Tuesday and is subbing in a classroom today (5 days). She only wears cloth masks.
If the coworker didn't have symptoms, that would be fully in line with the CDC's current recommendations:
"Ending isolation if you did NOT have symptoms:
End isolation after at least 5 full days after your positive [covid] test."
- https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/quarantine-isolation.html (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/quarantine-isolation.html)
I'm not sure it made a big difference in how hard it hit us, for example, vs. Florida.
California: 0.25 daily deaths per 100,000 residents
Florida: 0.32 daily deaths per 100,000 residents. That right after the massive delta wave that Florida had, with many people having residual immunity.
Back of the napkin calculation tells me that CA saves 28 people each day who would have died in Florida. Sounds like a significant difference to me.
Just wanted to remind everyone that the beginning of this topic was, like, 90% "screw everything, I'm going back to normal".
Now that I've had it / currently have it, I believe it's time to go back to normal even more strongly to be honest
Now that I've had it / currently have it, I believe it's time to go back to normal even more strongly to be honest
Survivorship bias. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)
Now that I've had it / currently have it, I believe it's time to go back to normal even more strongly to be honest
Survivorship bias. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)
I don't care what logical fallacy you think it is, this pandemic is over for me.
Now that I've had it / currently have it, I believe it's time to go back to normal even more strongly to be honest
Survivorship bias. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)
I don't care what logical fallacy you think it is, this pandemic is over for me.
I sincerely hope that you are spared from getting it again.
My answer to "where I stand on living with Covid" has shifted slightly, as it seems that I am probably on the list of those with Long Covid. (According to the doctor, there isn't really a formal definition of Long Covid, other than just basically "some lingering symptoms lasting weeks or longer after the illness has passed and the infection cleared.")OMG. I have Dermatographia too! As far as I know I never had COVID. The hives started a week after my booster shot. Initial case of hives was horrible, even my ears swelled. I went to Urgent Care and was given a shot of Benedryl and Steroids and then a week of steroids. As soon as I finished the steroids they started back up again. I am managing with Zyrtec plus a Benadryl on the nights it gets bad. It’s been almost 2 months and I’m just starting to see long periods without outbreaks of miserable hives.
That sounds dramatic, but really it is more weird and irritating than anything. Now, I didn't actually get a Covid test when I was sick. They were starting to be hard to find and I didn't think knowing for sure was actionable, since I could easily stay home and isolate. So I won't be on any actual accounting, if there was such a thing. But I was pretty sure it was Covid, and my doctor thinks it was as well (after the fact) based on the timing, symptoms, and the Weird Thing, which is inflammation-related and Covid is known for being inflame-y.
It seems I have dermatographia, aka 'skin writing'. It's an inflammation reaction, most commonly caused as the result of an infection. Can last weeks or months. Basically, my skin gets really itchy (like the worst mosquito bites ever; it is sort of a hot itch, different than just a usually itch one experiences). If I scratch it--not hard, just like one would for a normal itch--or even just bump it, there is a shooting fire under my skin. Like someone has injected burning oil and it is spreading. But the really freaky part is that a few minutes later, angry, hot, red welts appear in the exact pattern of the contact. I can run a fingernail fairly gently over my arm in the shape of letters and 5 minutes later, I'll have an angry-looking red word appear on my arm in raised letters. It will also hurt.
I was sick for about a week, and this started at the end of that week.
Thankfully, it has been well-managed with Zyrtec, though my sense is that the Zyrtec is lasting less and less time, and where I used to be able to take every other day, now at the end of the day, just before the next dose, I'm feeling itchy again and occasionally get the welts (which Doc says are a form of hives). That's a bit concerning because without the Zyrtec, it is entirely miserable. Like, I don't quite know how I'd function. But we aren't to that point and I'm hoping we never get there, and that if we do, there is something else or a higher dose of Zyrtec's active ingredient, or something else. I'm also taking Quercetin, a supplement known to help with inflammation, suggested by my doc as a "can't hurt" thing.
Really, I'm fine. As long as the Zyrtec continues to work, it's just a minor annoyance, really. But maybe it is also a reminder that there are so many things with this disease that we just don't know or understand. And that "very few healthy people are dying" isn't the only factor we need to consider.
(FTR, I am fully vaxxed and boosted. I got sick before the booster's full efficacy was in effect, if that matters.)
I don't care what logical fallacy you think it is, this pandemic is over for me.
I'm not sure it made a big difference in how hard it hit us, for example, vs. Florida.
California: 0.25 daily deaths per 100,000 residents
Florida: 0.32 daily deaths per 100,000 residents. That right after the massive delta wave that Florida had, with many people having residual immunity.
Back of the napkin calculation tells me that CA saves 28 people each day who would have died in Florida. Sounds like a significant difference to me.
Which precautions do you want to keep?
School closures, business closures, and preventing gatherings do a lot of damage to people when they're in place and not absolutely necessary. Mask mandates make more sense if we can do away with pointless security pageantry mask wearing rules (wearing a mask to walk to a table in a restaurant, then taking it off when you sit down to eat, for example).
Why are we doing this again? We went through it 10 times already.
I’ve been pondering what sort of “normal” we’re expecting. Things always change, and we can go back in time, so maybe… it’s never going to be 2019 again and it might be less stressful to accept that the future is just going to be different than the Before Times.
I really don’t care what decisions people make for themselves - if you really have to eat in a restaurant, that’s your decision. I really don’t understand the general unkindness of refusing a vaccine and refusing to wear a mask in the grocery store.
I’ve been pondering what sort of “normal” we’re expecting. Things always change, and we can go back in time, so maybe… it’s never going to be 2019 again and it might be less stressful to accept that the future is just going to be different than the Before Times.
I really don’t care what decisions people make for themselves - if you really have to eat in a restaurant, that’s your decision. I really don’t understand the general unkindness of refusing a vaccine and refusing to wear a mask in the grocery store.
No masks unless you're actively sick/coughing - similar to what an ER/Doctor's Office would have asked you to do in 2019 or earlier - or you're immuno-compromised (undergoing cancer treatment, etc.)
Less social pressure to come to work/school while sick and more social pressure to stay at home instead of going to school/work while sick.
Increased awareness of washing hands/using hand sanitizer, coughing into your sleeve instead of hands or uncovered, increased awareness of touching your face and how communicable diseases spread.
More options for remote - whether that's signing documents electronically or video meetings or the option to work from home at times.
Other than that, everything else back to the way it was pre-COVID.
I’ve been pondering what sort of “normal” we’re expecting. Things always change, and we can go back in time, so maybe… it’s never going to be 2019 again and it might be less stressful to accept that the future is just going to be different than the Before Times.
I really don’t care what decisions people make for themselves - if you really have to eat in a restaurant, that’s your decision. I really don’t understand the general unkindness of refusing a vaccine and refusing to wear a mask in the grocery store.
No masks unless you're actively sick/coughing - similar to what an ER/Doctor's Office would have asked you to do in 2019 or earlier - or you're immuno-compromised (undergoing cancer treatment, etc.)
Less social pressure to come to work/school while sick and more social pressure to stay at home instead of going to school/work while sick.
Increased awareness of washing hands/using hand sanitizer, coughing into your sleeve instead of hands or uncovered, increased awareness of touching your face and how communicable diseases spread.
More options for remote - whether that's signing documents electronically or video meetings or the option to work from home at times.
Other than that, everything else back to the way it was pre-COVID.
But why no masks, at least in essential areas, for most people? I honestly don’t get why they are such a sticking point? Why not a general move to masks in stores in the winter? I haven’t had a cold in two years, and I’m loving it.
I’ve been pondering what sort of “normal” we’re expecting. Things always change, and we can go back in time, so maybe… it’s never going to be 2019 again and it might be less stressful to accept that the future is just going to be different than the Before Times.
I really don’t care what decisions people make for themselves - if you really have to eat in a restaurant, that’s your decision. I really don’t understand the general unkindness of refusing a vaccine and refusing to wear a mask in the grocery store.
No masks unless you're actively sick/coughing - similar to what an ER/Doctor's Office would have asked you to do in 2019 or earlier - or you're immuno-compromised (undergoing cancer treatment, etc.)
Less social pressure to come to work/school while sick and more social pressure to stay at home instead of going to school/work while sick.
Increased awareness of washing hands/using hand sanitizer, coughing into your sleeve instead of hands or uncovered, increased awareness of touching your face and how communicable diseases spread.
More options for remote - whether that's signing documents electronically or video meetings or the option to work from home at times.
Other than that, everything else back to the way it was pre-COVID.
But why no masks, at least in essential areas, for most people? I honestly don’t get why they are such a sticking point? Why not a general move to masks in stores in the winter? I haven’t had a cold in two years, and I’m loving it.
Which precautions do you want to keep?
School closures, business closures, and preventing gatherings do a lot of damage to people when they're in place and not absolutely necessary. Mask mandates make more sense if we can do away with pointless security pageantry mask wearing rules (wearing a mask to walk to a table in a restaurant, then taking it off when you sit down to eat, for example).
Why are we doing this again? We went through it 10 times already.
I am genuinely curious to know as well. I feel like you are the cheerleader of an opinion that you think everyone here shares, when in reality they don't.... or as pointed out a few posts up, maybe there is a disconnect in definitions. You said "90%" of people in this thread were like "screw everything we're going back to normal" according to you, and now this Omi wave is now somehow evidence that we should not be doing those activities. Which restrictions would you like back? Do you want full lockdowns again? School to go back to online only? Restaurants to close? Shut down air travel? Cancelling Dentist appointments? Stop having in person events? Starting cutting our own hair again?
I’ve been pondering what sort of “normal” we’re expecting. Things always change, and we can go back in time, so maybe… it’s never going to be 2019 again and it might be less stressful to accept that the future is just going to be different than the Before Times.
I really don’t care what decisions people make for themselves - if you really have to eat in a restaurant, that’s your decision. I really don’t understand the general unkindness of refusing a vaccine and refusing to wear a mask in the grocery store.
No masks unless you're actively sick/coughing - similar to what an ER/Doctor's Office would have asked you to do in 2019 or earlier - or you're immuno-compromised (undergoing cancer treatment, etc.)
Less social pressure to come to work/school while sick and more social pressure to stay at home instead of going to school/work while sick.
Increased awareness of washing hands/using hand sanitizer, coughing into your sleeve instead of hands or uncovered, increased awareness of touching your face and how communicable diseases spread.
More options for remote - whether that's signing documents electronically or video meetings or the option to work from home at times.
Other than that, everything else back to the way it was pre-COVID.
But why no masks, at least in essential areas, for most people? I honestly don’t get why they are such a sticking point? Why not a general move to masks in stores in the winter? I haven’t had a cold in two years, and I’m loving it.
Ouch. I have definitely been naive. And also live in Canada.My niece and her boyfriend have covid. He's unvaxxed and pretty sick, she's vaxxed and asymptomatic. She only tested because she was exposed to him. No one else in the household tested positive. They are having a birthday party with the whole family (9 people minimum) despite her being positive. We were invited but obviously declined. Also the entire family has been going about their daily lives and going to stores and whatnot even as they were awaiting test results.That is insane. I must be naive but I honestly didn’t know people did this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes very insane. Yes you are naive, because at least half of the population is insane. At this point I would just assume a good portion of people you see going about their business are positive. Some don't know it, but many do and just don't care. I mean what are they gonna do, isolate at home for 10 days with their entire household? lol
ETA: I mean the USA is still averaging like 3/4 of a million positive tests each day. That's like 1.5% of the entire US population that tested positive just this past week. That doesn't include all the at home positives, and doesn't include people that either couldn't get a test or didn't even bother.
A big question regarding utility of mask wearing for non-covid diseases will be answered with this year’s flu season. The primary detected strain this year is a particularly virulent one, and vaccines are only moderately effective against getting a symptomatic infection. If hospitalizations from that are lower than expected in February-March, it will suggest a benefit to masks, etc since there are not other effective ways to prevent transmission. This will be notable because influenza is mostly spread by droplets/touching your nose and mouth, etc. Data so far suggests a milder than expected wave (preliminary data suggests it is already waning).
A significant number of first world polities have announced that they are moving to treatment of COVID as an endemic disease: Spain, the UK, Ireland, South Africa, Switzerland, Portugal, British Columbia, Ontario (sort of)... and of course many states in the US have been de facto doing this for months now. https://nationalpost.com/health/flu-ization-why-omicron-is-causing-some-countries-to-treat-covid-like-the-flu (https://nationalpost.com/health/flu-ization-why-omicron-is-causing-some-countries-to-treat-covid-like-the-flu)
So it looks like we're going to be living with COVID regardless of whether we think it's a good idea or a bad idea.
It's a minor benefit weighed against a minor annoyance. Mask wearing only provides a benefit to others when the wearer is contagiously spreading disease, and most asymptomatic people aren't doing that. This month may be an exception. My hearing isn't amazing, so I generally have a preference for being able to see people's lips moving if I need to talk to them. I also just think it's nice to see people's smiling faces when I'm out and about. I miss that. I'd like to settle into a pattern of mask wearing while you're sick, but not otherwise. I don't hate wearing masks at stores. It's not the hill I'm going to die on. I just think that of all the things we could do to prevent disease, asymptomatic mask wearing is probably one of the least impactful. This goes double in buildings such as a grocery store where you're not there for very long and are moving around for most of that time, limiting your exposure to any one person.
Where I do hate mask wearing is during strenuous exercise. The club where I play my favorite sport has had that policy all year and it's really getting old.
I think my "ideal new normal" list looks a lot like @Michael in ABQ's. I'd probably quibble a bit with the "more social pressure to isolate when sick" thing, or at least want to clarify that. I think people should be absolutely given more space than before to take time off if they feel they are operating on a lower level due to illness. Once they're feeling mostly better but still have a residual cough or something, they should feel empowered to go about their life with a mask on. The COVID-era policies where parents are expected to keep their kids home anytime they have minor respiratory symptoms, and for a week after...it's way too disruptive to life in general. Getting colds more often comes with the territory being a parent; what should not come with the territory is a need to take half the winter off from work because one kid or another has the sniffles and can't go into school that week.
Its crazy how different different areas are. We've been essentially back to normal for a year outside of my daughter wearing a mask for a month at the beginning of this school year. Some people wear masks, some don't, but nobody gives you bad looks either way. Then I hear about my friend in the northeast and his 5 year old daughters had to get vaxxed or kicked out of school and even after everyone in the school is fully vaccinated they force the kids to eat their food outside in 25 degree weather and mask all day.
A big question regarding utility of mask wearing for non-covid diseases will be answered with this year’s flu season. The primary detected strain this year is a particularly virulent one, and vaccines are only moderately effective against getting a symptomatic infection. If hospitalizations from that are lower than expected in February-March, it will suggest a benefit to masks, etc since there are not other effective ways to prevent transmission. This will be notable because influenza is mostly spread by droplets/touching your nose and mouth, etc. Data so far suggests a milder than expected wave (preliminary data suggests it is already waning).
Just out of curiosity, which strain is it?
Everyone here is still masked indoors so it will be useful to see our flu stats this spring.
A big question regarding utility of mask wearing for non-covid diseases will be answered with this year’s flu season. The primary detected strain this year is a particularly virulent one, and vaccines are only moderately effective against getting a symptomatic infection. If hospitalizations from that are lower than expected in February-March, it will suggest a benefit to masks, etc since there are not other effective ways to prevent transmission. This will be notable because influenza is mostly spread by droplets/touching your nose and mouth, etc. Data so far suggests a milder than expected wave (preliminary data suggests it is already waning).
A big question regarding utility of mask wearing for non-covid diseases will be answered with this year’s flu season. The primary detected strain this year is a particularly virulent one, and vaccines are only moderately effective against getting a symptomatic infection. If hospitalizations from that are lower than expected in February-March, it will suggest a benefit to masks, etc since there are not other effective ways to prevent transmission. This will be notable because influenza is mostly spread by droplets/touching your nose and mouth, etc. Data so far suggests a milder than expected wave (preliminary data suggests it is already waning).
An elderly, immunocompromised friend told us recently (by phone, of course) that, since Covid started, the only time he ever goes outside of his apartment is Monday mornings at 4:45 a.m. Apparently, he sits in his car outside the local supermarket, wearing a mask and gloves, waiting for it to open. At exactly 5 a.m., he rushes into the store, loads up his cart, checks out, and is usually back home before 5:30 a.m. That's it. Besides this weekly excursion to the grocery store, our friend sits alone in his tiny, one-bedroom apartment, watching TV and reading all. week. long.
Another, much younger, immunocompromised friend told us recently that she has not left her home, at all, since last September. Not even once. For anything. She lives in an area where it's easy to have, basically, everything delivered, and she works from home.
If flu hospitalizations do end up being lower than expected this winter, just curious, what would lead you to believe that that was caused by mask wearing, specifically, and not the continuing propensity of people at risk to voluntarily socially distance themselves from other humans? I mean, if you never, or barely ever, leave your house, of course you're not going to catch the flu, whether you wear a mask or not. Without a control group who socially distance but don't wear masks, it seems like it'll hard to establish any sort of causal link between mask wearing and lower flu hospitalization rates. Or, am I missing something, Dr. Abe?
A big question regarding utility of mask wearing for non-covid diseases will be answered with this year’s flu season. The primary detected strain this year is a particularly virulent one, and vaccines are only moderately effective against getting a symptomatic infection. If hospitalizations from that are lower than expected in February-March, it will suggest a benefit to masks, etc since there are not other effective ways to prevent transmission. This will be notable because influenza is mostly spread by droplets/touching your nose and mouth, etc. Data so far suggests a milder than expected wave (preliminary data suggests it is already waning).
Just out of curiosity, which strain is it?
Everyone here is still masked indoors so it will be useful to see our flu stats this spring.
H3N2. The bad influenza season about a decade ago and the 2017-18 one were the same.
If flu hospitalizations do end up being lower than expected this winter, just curious, what would lead you to believe that that was caused by mask wearing, specifically, and not the continuing propensity of people at risk to voluntarily socially distance themselves from other humans? I mean, if you never, or barely ever, leave your house, of course you're not going to catch the flu, whether you wear a mask or not. Without a control group who socially distance but don't wear masks, it seems like it'll hard to establish any sort of causal link between mask wearing and lower flu hospitalization rates. Or, am I missing something, Dr. Abe?
*My Province just cancelled all elective surgeries. Who knows when my friend will get her knee replacement done? She has been waiting for months, the hospital space (and staffing) just isn't there right now. And as elsewhere, it is the unvaccinated who are dis-proportionally represented.
My answer to "where I stand on living with Covid" has shifted slightly, as it seems that I am probably on the list of those with Long Covid. (According to the doctor, there isn't really a formal definition of Long Covid, other than just basically "some lingering symptoms lasting weeks or longer after the illness has passed and the infection cleared.")OMG. I have Dermatographia too! As far as I know I never had COVID. The hives started a week after my booster shot. Initial case of hives was horrible, even my ears swelled. I went to Urgent Care and was given a shot of Benedryl and Steroids and then a week of steroids. As soon as I finished the steroids they started back up again. I am managing with Zyrtec plus a Benadryl on the nights it gets bad. It’s been almost 2 months and I’m just starting to see long periods without outbreaks of miserable hives.
That sounds dramatic, but really it is more weird and irritating than anything. Now, I didn't actually get a Covid test when I was sick. They were starting to be hard to find and I didn't think knowing for sure was actionable, since I could easily stay home and isolate. So I won't be on any actual accounting, if there was such a thing. But I was pretty sure it was Covid, and my doctor thinks it was as well (after the fact) based on the timing, symptoms, and the Weird Thing, which is inflammation-related and Covid is known for being inflame-y.
It seems I have dermatographia, aka 'skin writing'. It's an inflammation reaction, most commonly caused as the result of an infection. Can last weeks or months. Basically, my skin gets really itchy (like the worst mosquito bites ever; it is sort of a hot itch, different than just a usually itch one experiences). If I scratch it--not hard, just like one would for a normal itch--or even just bump it, there is a shooting fire under my skin. Like someone has injected burning oil and it is spreading. But the really freaky part is that a few minutes later, angry, hot, red welts appear in the exact pattern of the contact. I can run a fingernail fairly gently over my arm in the shape of letters and 5 minutes later, I'll have an angry-looking red word appear on my arm in raised letters. It will also hurt.
I was sick for about a week, and this started at the end of that week.
Thankfully, it has been well-managed with Zyrtec, though my sense is that the Zyrtec is lasting less and less time, and where I used to be able to take every other day, now at the end of the day, just before the next dose, I'm feeling itchy again and occasionally get the welts (which Doc says are a form of hives). That's a bit concerning because without the Zyrtec, it is entirely miserable. Like, I don't quite know how I'd function. But we aren't to that point and I'm hoping we never get there, and that if we do, there is something else or a higher dose of Zyrtec's active ingredient, or something else. I'm also taking Quercetin, a supplement known to help with inflammation, suggested by my doc as a "can't hurt" thing.
Really, I'm fine. As long as the Zyrtec continues to work, it's just a minor annoyance, really. But maybe it is also a reminder that there are so many things with this disease that we just don't know or understand. And that "very few healthy people are dying" isn't the only factor we need to consider.
(FTR, I am fully vaxxed and boosted. I got sick before the booster's full efficacy was in effect, if that matters.)
Thanks for sharing this. It does make me feel slightly better to know I'm not the only one, but I'm sorry you are dealing with this, too.
Interesting that you mention yours happening after vaccination. I wonder if this is a known/recorded side effect of the vaccine. I actually got sick about 9 days after my booster, and the dermatographia started toward the end of my illness, probably on about day 5 (so ~11 days after booster). I mentioned all that timing to the doctor, but I was mostly focusing on the fact that I'd been sick, not the booster, so it is hard to say whether she dismissed the booster because I did, or if she was just fairy certain, based on what I said, that it was more related to the illness. I was still pretty sick when it started. At first I thought maybe I had randomly gotten bed bugs or something, because I'd spend nearly all my time in bed when it started happening. I though the itchiness might be from bites, and the welts might be the bites themselves, but it soon became clear that wasn't the issue. Point being, I was still sick, but on the tail end of it, when this started.
I'm not yet 2 months out from my first symptom of the dermatographia, so I'm hopefully that mine will follow a similar pattern to yours and start easing at that point (or earlier!). I'm going to stay on the daily Zyrtec for another few weeks at least, and then maybe take a short break to see if it is still A Thing, unless I can already tell that based on the breakthrough symptoms at the tail end of the Zyrtec.
Going to find out if being super careful while traveling is effective mitigation against Omicron. Just returned from a cross-country business trip, and kept my well-fitting KN95 masks plastered to my face at all times, only removing the mask when outside and/or more than 20 feet away from everyone else. No snacking on the plane or at work. No going out to eat in restaurants. The area visited was near-zero masking, though the work location had both vaccine and mask requirements (everyone else would remove masks to snack/drink and sometimes chat, though). Some anti-maskers in the airports and on the plane, though the flight crew was pretty good about hounding them on the plane. Personally vaxxed and boosted.
I'm still in the "let's get back to normal" category. I don't want to say "screw everybody". But those still at risk at this point would be highly at risk for the flu too and we don't force people to isolate for five days and then mask for five more to attempt to protect everyone else.
I'm really frustrated by how kind of crazy the rules seem at this point. My youngest child (9yo) tested positive last weekend. He had a runny nose and slight cough for about 2ish days. (in the "before" times I would not have even considered him "sick") We had to keep him home from school for a week. On day 6, per the CDC he may return to school AND TO BASKETBALL as long as he wears a mask. But it's a cloth mask, none of the other kids are masked, and he will take it off for lunch. The rest of us are vaccinated and boostered. We tested negative and have been allowed to go to work and school and PLAY BASKETBALL as long as we mask. And we were to test on day 5 to see if we are still negative. (we actually opted to isolate for 5 days until we tested again anyway because it seemed like the right thing to do)
Based on what we know about Omicron, I don't see how any of those rules really do that much to prevent spread. It just seems like theatrics.
And in talking with other parents at our school, I know about half the parents aren't even testing. I tested my kid because he had the sniffles and he had a friend coming over (whose mom is a teacher) and we HAD TESTS. About half the parents I know said they wouldn't have even tested their kid, or put a mask on them or anything. Several parents on my son's basketball team were pissed we tested him because it meant they had to test so that their exposed kids could come back to play (though it's on the honor system so unlikely they did)
So I feel like my life has been upended for five days for nothing. Because the rules are stupidly arbitrary and at least half the people aren't doing the same anyway.
I'm still in the "let's get back to normal" category. I don't want to say "screw everybody". But those still at risk at this point would be highly at risk for the flu too and we don't force people to isolate for five days and then mask for five more to attempt to protect everyone else.
I'm really frustrated by how kind of crazy the rules seem at this point. My youngest child (9yo) tested positive last weekend. He had a runny nose and slight cough for about 2ish days. (in the "before" times I would not have even considered him "sick") We had to keep him home from school for a week. On day 6, per the CDC he may return to school AND TO BASKETBALL as long as he wears a mask. But it's a cloth mask, none of the other kids are masked, and he will take it off for lunch. The rest of us are vaccinated and boostered. We tested negative and have been allowed to go to work and school and PLAY BASKETBALL as long as we mask. And we were to test on day 5 to see if we are still negative. (we actually opted to isolate for 5 days until we tested again anyway because it seemed like the right thing to do)
Based on what we know about Omicron, I don't see how any of those rules really do that much to prevent spread. It just seems like theatrics.
And in talking with other parents at our school, I know about half the parents aren't even testing. I tested my kid because he had the sniffles and he had a friend coming over (whose mom is a teacher) and we HAD TESTS. About half the parents I know said they wouldn't have even tested their kid, or put a mask on them or anything. Several parents on my son's basketball team were pissed we tested him because it meant they had to test so that their exposed kids could come back to play (though it's on the honor system so unlikely they did)
So I feel like my life has been upended for five days for nothing. Because the rules are stupidly arbitrary and at least half the people aren't doing the same anyway.
This is my frustration, too. I'm very much a rule-follower, so we've all been testing like crazy since my husband had an all-day exposure at work six days ago. It seems like the right thing to do. But I KNOW that most people in our area wouldn't have even tested themselves when sick and notified contacts (like my husband's coworker did) and I know most people would not have taken any precautions after an exposure.
My daughter has had a lot of kids absent from her class at school, but they're all out for 1-2 days and then come back. You can't tell me that NONE of those kids were positive for COVID. I'm sure their parents just aren't testing. Heck, our next door neighbor is a nurse and she sent her son to school on Tuesday after he'd had an hours-long bout of vomiting on Monday night.... and I'm pretty sure she didn't bother to test first.
I'm almost at the point of wishing they'd just eliminate the guidelines at this point. This is one group project that can't be accomplished by a tiny minority of us, but I feel like we're all driving ourselves crazy trying.
I'm still in the "let's get back to normal" category. I don't want to say "screw everybody". But those still at risk at this point would be highly at risk for the flu too and we don't force people to isolate for five days and then mask for five more to attempt to protect everyone else.
I'm really frustrated by how kind of crazy the rules seem at this point. My youngest child (9yo) tested positive last weekend. He had a runny nose and slight cough for about 2ish days. (in the "before" times I would not have even considered him "sick") We had to keep him home from school for a week. On day 6, per the CDC he may return to school AND TO BASKETBALL as long as he wears a mask. But it's a cloth mask, none of the other kids are masked, and he will take it off for lunch. The rest of us are vaccinated and boostered. We tested negative and have been allowed to go to work and school and PLAY BASKETBALL as long as we mask. And we were to test on day 5 to see if we are still negative. (we actually opted to isolate for 5 days until we tested again anyway because it seemed like the right thing to do)
Based on what we know about Omicron, I don't see how any of those rules really do that much to prevent spread. It just seems like theatrics.
And in talking with other parents at our school, I know about half the parents aren't even testing. I tested my kid because he had the sniffles and he had a friend coming over (whose mom is a teacher) and we HAD TESTS. About half the parents I know said they wouldn't have even tested their kid, or put a mask on them or anything. Several parents on my son's basketball team were pissed we tested him because it meant they had to test so that their exposed kids could come back to play (though it's on the honor system so unlikely they did)
So I feel like my life has been upended for five days for nothing. Because the rules are stupidly arbitrary and at least half the people aren't doing the same anyway.
This is my frustration, too. I'm very much a rule-follower, so we've all been testing like crazy since my husband had an all-day exposure at work six days ago. It seems like the right thing to do. But I KNOW that most people in our area wouldn't have even tested themselves when sick and notified contacts (like my husband's coworker did) and I know most people would not have taken any precautions after an exposure.
My daughter has had a lot of kids absent from her class at school, but they're all out for 1-2 days and then come back. You can't tell me that NONE of those kids were positive for COVID. I'm sure their parents just aren't testing. Heck, our next door neighbor is a nurse and she sent her son to school on Tuesday after he'd had an hours-long bout of vomiting on Monday night.... and I'm pretty sure she didn't bother to test first.
I'm almost at the point of wishing they'd just eliminate the guidelines at this point. This is one group project that can't be accomplished by a tiny minority of us, but I feel like we're all driving ourselves crazy trying.
Oh yeah I almost forgot- since he tested positive on Sunday and their was no school on Monday (MLK day) I reached out to the basketball team and all his best buddies parents since he said he sat with them at lunch on Friday. I thought they should know before the nurse called them in case they were trying to protect someone in their family.
Turns out the school didn't and wasn't planning to do any contract tracing. They also didn't report the positive case. The principal told me that since he tested positive on the weekend "it didn't count".
So what are we doing all this for????
Can't find a link to the actual study, unfortunately. It's also not clear if it's causation or correlation. It is possible that school districts that implemented mask mandates are populated by people who, in general, take Covid precautions more seriously. After all, local policies reflect local attitudes. But schools with mask mandates in Michigan have significantly lower Covid rates. (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/michigan-schools-with-no-mask-mandate-have-61-percent-more-covid-cases/ar-AAPA16i)I’m sure mask mandates help, but I think it’s likely more that the parents take it seriously and are vaccinated. It seems to spread more from parent to child than child to child. Omicron is changing it a bit.
What are we all doing it for, you ask? To try not to get sick. I don't care about anyone else at this point, I'm just trying to protect myself. Because, in spite of most people "recovering" and not ending up in hospital, there are enough unknowns about the long-term consequences of this virus that if I can prevent getting it, I will. It's not just a respiratory virus - it causes inflammation in all parts of the body, which can lead to other immediate, delayed or long-term medical issues, like diabetes, heart disease, lung damage, neurological effects, etc. I have no interest in developing any of those things.Clearly you didn’t read my posts further up about the “rules” we have in place for testing positive and how many people are actually following them.
What are we all doing it for, you ask? To try not to get sick. I don't care about anyone else at this point, I'm just trying to protect myself. Because, in spite of most people "recovering" and not ending up in hospital, there are enough unknowns about the long-term consequences of this virus that if I can prevent getting it, I will. It's not just a respiratory virus - it causes inflammation in all parts of the body, which can lead to other immediate, delayed or long-term medical issues, like diabetes, heart disease, lung damage, neurological effects, etc. I have no interest in developing any of those things.Clearly you didn’t read my posts further up about the “rules” we have in place for testing positive and how many people are actually following them.
If you think they can actually protect you from getting it, you’re probably in for a big surprise.
Did you know that in most places healthcare workers may now come to work even after testing positive as long as they mask? God help you if you need to visit the doctor.
If we actually wanted to protect people from getting it, we would go back to mask mandates, restricting indoor gatherings and 14 day isolation periods.
What are we all doing it for, you ask? To try not to get sick. I don't care about anyone else at this point, I'm just trying to protect myself. Because, in spite of most people "recovering" and not ending up in hospital, there are enough unknowns about the long-term consequences of this virus that if I can prevent getting it, I will. It's not just a respiratory virus - it causes inflammation in all parts of the body, which can lead to other immediate, delayed or long-term medical issues, like diabetes, heart disease, lung damage, neurological effects, etc. I have no interest in developing any of those things.
Right now, we have a prophylaxis (i.e. the vaccines), we have a treatment (the MAB from Pfizer and I think another one) and we have a relatively mild, if very contagious strain of the disease. I find it hard to see when we'd have a better time to try and accept that we're into a new normal...
I know it sounds weird, but I'm kind of glad we all got it. I've felt like we've been walking on eggshells for the past 2 years, wondering if it'll be brutal if we get it, wondering if we are inadvertently spreading it to other people, wondering if someone will spread it to us, etc. Now that we all have it and it's mild I won't have to wonder about if we are spreading it, if we will catch it, etc. At least until the next variant comes out :)
I know it sounds weird, but I'm kind of glad we all got it. I've felt like we've been walking on eggshells for the past 2 years, wondering if it'll be brutal if we get it, wondering if we are inadvertently spreading it to other people, wondering if someone will spread it to us, etc. Now that we all have it and it's mild I won't have to wonder about if we are spreading it, if we will catch it, etc. At least until the next variant comes out :)
My niece and her boyfriend have covid. He's unvaxxed and pretty sick, she's vaxxed and asymptomatic. She only tested because she was exposed to him. No one else in the household tested positive. They are having a birthday party with the whole family (9 people minimum) despite her being positive. We were invited but obviously declined. Also the entire family has been going about their daily lives and going to stores and whatnot even as they were awaiting test results.That is insane. I must be naive but I honestly didn’t know people did this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've been dealing with crushing fatigue, headaches, and a scratchy throat all week, and my husband is currently in bed with head cold symptoms and a fever. I'm pretty sure it's because when I went to the warehouse club last Friday, the idiot who came in just after me sounded like he was about to cough up a lung.
This is me
This is me
lol . . . our whole family too. It does kinda feel like that pic sometimes.
This is me
lol . . . our whole family too. It does kinda feel like that pic sometimes.
And me. En garde!!!
My niece and her boyfriend have covid. He's unvaxxed and pretty sick, she's vaxxed and asymptomatic. She only tested because she was exposed to him. No one else in the household tested positive. They are having a birthday party with the whole family (9 people minimum) despite her being positive. We were invited but obviously declined. Also the entire family has been going about their daily lives and going to stores and whatnot even as they were awaiting test results.That is insane. I must be naive but I honestly didn’t know people did this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've been dealing with crushing fatigue, headaches, and a scratchy throat all week, and my husband is currently in bed with head cold symptoms and a fever. I'm pretty sure it's because when I went to the warehouse club last Friday, the idiot who came in just after me sounded like he was about to cough up a lung.
Paging @OtherJen because we got Covid around the same time, how are you and your husband doing now?
This is me
lol . . . our whole family too. It does kinda feel like that pic sometimes.
And me. En garde!!!
This is me
lol . . . our whole family too. It does kinda feel like that pic sometimes.
And me. En garde!!!
We have also avoided it. I've been sick 3 times since covid hit, one short lived stomach bug, and 2 typical colds (both within last 4 months), but no flu or covid.
This is me
lol . . . our whole family too. It does kinda feel like that pic sometimes.
And me. En garde!!!
We have also avoided it. I've been sick 3 times since covid hit, one short lived stomach bug, and 2 typical colds (both within last 4 months), but no flu or covid.
Can just about guarantee one of the two typical colds in the last 4 months was covid. Its extremely easy to not get a test at the right time to show up. Covid for a vaccinated person is extremely similar to a cold.
What I find interesting is this narrative of: "we'll all get it eventually / it's unavoidable".
[snip]
While it is indeed possible to do everything right and still catch the virus, I'm not convinced it's inevitable, even if we have to endure a fifth, sixth, seventh wave and several more variants.
COVID sucks, don't get me wrong. I don't want people to die from it and I don't want people to suffer from long COVID. It's also here to stay.
The question I think about is when do we start to accept the new normal? Are we going to go through shutdowns for 1-3 months every winter going forward?
Right now, we have a prophylaxis (i.e. the vaccines for 5+, because under 5 don't count as real people just yet), we have a treatment (the MAB from Pfizer and I think another one though not enough of it for people) and we have a relatively mild, if very contagious strain of the disease. I find it hard to see when we'd have a better time to try and accept that we're into a new normal...
I know it sounds weird, but I'm kind of glad we all got it. I've felt like we've been walking on eggshells for the past 2 years, wondering if it'll be brutal if we get it, wondering if we are inadvertently spreading it to other people, wondering if someone will spread it to us, etc. Now that we all have it and it's mild I won't have to wonder about if we are spreading it, if we will catch it, etc. At least until the next variant comes out :)
Same. Not even worried or thinking about the next.
I know it sounds weird, but I'm kind of glad we all got it. I've felt like we've been walking on eggshells for the past 2 years, wondering if it'll be brutal if we get it, wondering if we are inadvertently spreading it to other people, wondering if someone will spread it to us, etc. Now that we all have it and it's mild I won't have to wonder about if we are spreading it, if we will catch it, etc. At least until the next variant comes out :)
I've been hoping someone in our family will test positive the last few times we've all had a cold. My wife and I are vaccinated, and she recently spent a day taking care of her sister who had COVID and never had any symptoms. We've been thinking about having our kids tested for antibodies as there's a decent chance they've already had it and therefore we don't need to worry as they've got natural immunity.
This is me
lol . . . our whole family too. It does kinda feel like that pic sometimes.
And me. En garde!!!
We have also avoided it. I've been sick 3 times since covid hit, one short lived stomach bug, and 2 typical colds (both within last 4 months), but no flu or covid.
Can just about guarantee one of the two typical colds in the last 4 months was covid. Its extremely easy to not get a test at the right time to show up. Covid for a vaccinated person is extremely similar to a cold.
COVID sucks, don't get me wrong. I don't want people to die from it and I don't want people to suffer from long COVID. It's also here to stay.
The question I think about is when do we start to accept the new normal? Are we going to go through shutdowns for 1-3 months every winter going forward?
Right now, we have a prophylaxis (i.e. the vaccines for 5+, because under 5 don't count as real people just yet), we have a treatment (the MAB from Pfizer and I think another one though not enough of it for people) and we have a relatively mild, if very contagious strain of the disease. I find it hard to see when we'd have a better time to try and accept that we're into a new normal...
FIFY
What I find interesting is this narrative of: "we'll all get it eventually / it's unavoidable".
Consider this; right now there's been about 70MM official cases in the US, and I've seen estimates including unreported numbers the true number is around 100MM. That's extraordinary, but it also means that 2/3rds of Americans have NOT gotten the virus. Many other countries have faired far better. Bottom line is that most people have not contracted Covid.
While it is indeed possible to do everything right and still catch the virus, I'm not convinced it's inevitable, even if we have to endure a fifth, sixth, seventh wave and several more variants.
This is me
lol . . . our whole family too. It does kinda feel like that pic sometimes.
And me. En garde!!!
We have also avoided it. I've been sick 3 times since covid hit, one short lived stomach bug, and 2 typical colds (both within last 4 months), but no flu or covid.
Can just about guarantee one of the two typical colds in the last 4 months was covid. Its extremely easy to not get a test at the right time to show up. Covid for a vaccinated person is extremely similar to a cold.
If the variant can't be detected it could have been covid. Everyone in my son's class got a cold in October and a bunch of the parents and teachers also got sick, but it was negative covid tests all around. Second cold was a few weeks ago and tested negative and had no known exposure to anyone testing positive.
What I find interesting is this narrative of: "we'll all get it eventually / it's unavoidable".
[snip]
While it is indeed possible to do everything right and still catch the virus, I'm not convinced it's inevitable, even if we have to endure a fifth, sixth, seventh wave and several more variants.
Agree. Puts me in mind of "think you can, think you can't, either way you're right". If you give up and stop taking precautions, um, yeah, you are more likely to get it...COVID sucks, don't get me wrong. I don't want people to die from it and I don't want people to suffer from long COVID. It's also here to stay.
The question I think about is when do we start to accept the new normal? Are we going to go through shutdowns for 1-3 months every winter going forward?
Right now, we have a prophylaxis (i.e. the vaccines for 5+, because under 5 don't count as real people just yet), we have a treatment (the MAB from Pfizer and I think another one though not enough of it for people) and we have a relatively mild, if very contagious strain of the disease. I find it hard to see when we'd have a better time to try and accept that we're into a new normal...
FIFYI know it sounds weird, but I'm kind of glad we all got it. I've felt like we've been walking on eggshells for the past 2 years, wondering if it'll be brutal if we get it, wondering if we are inadvertently spreading it to other people, wondering if someone will spread it to us, etc. Now that we all have it and it's mild I won't have to wonder about if we are spreading it, if we will catch it, etc. At least until the next variant comes out :)
Same. Not even worried or thinking about the next.I know it sounds weird, but I'm kind of glad we all got it. I've felt like we've been walking on eggshells for the past 2 years, wondering if it'll be brutal if we get it, wondering if we are inadvertently spreading it to other people, wondering if someone will spread it to us, etc. Now that we all have it and it's mild I won't have to wonder about if we are spreading it, if we will catch it, etc. At least until the next variant comes out :)
I've been hoping someone in our family will test positive the last few times we've all had a cold. My wife and I are vaccinated, and she recently spent a day taking care of her sister who had COVID and never had any symptoms. We've been thinking about having our kids tested for antibodies as there's a decent chance they've already had it and therefore we don't need to worry as they've got natural immunity.
Don't get too excited as you can get it again :(
COVID sucks, don't get me wrong. I don't want people to die from it and I don't want people to suffer from long COVID. It's also here to stay.
The question I think about is when do we start to accept the new normal? Are we going to go through shutdowns for 1-3 months every winter going forward?
Right now, we have a prophylaxis (i.e. the vaccines for 5+, because under 5 don't count as real people just yet), we have a treatment (the MAB from Pfizer and I think another one though not enough of it for people) and we have a relatively mild, if very contagious strain of the disease. I find it hard to see when we'd have a better time to try and accept that we're into a new normal...
FIFY
Sure you've got a point. When do you think society should start moving on then? Once kids under 5 are vaccinated and manufacturing capacity for the treatment has picked up?
COVID sucks, don't get me wrong. I don't want people to die from it and I don't want people to suffer from long COVID. It's also here to stay.
The question I think about is when do we start to accept the new normal? Are we going to go through shutdowns for 1-3 months every winter going forward?
Right now, we have a prophylaxis (i.e. the vaccines for 5+, because under 5 don't count as real people just yet), we have a treatment (the MAB from Pfizer and I think another one though not enough of it for people) and we have a relatively mild, if very contagious strain of the disease. I find it hard to see when we'd have a better time to try and accept that we're into a new normal...
FIFY
Sure you've got a point. When do you think society should start moving on then? Once kids under 5 are vaccinated and manufacturing capacity for the treatment has picked up?
- Vaccine for all
There's evidence of people testing positive twice for Omicron?It's possible according to the science to get Omicron twice but it's too soon to have individual cases as the variant was only identified a couple of months ago.
COVID sucks, don't get me wrong. I don't want people to die from it and I don't want people to suffer from long COVID. It's also here to stay.
The question I think about is when do we start to accept the new normal? Are we going to go through shutdowns for 1-3 months every winter going forward?
Right now, we have a prophylaxis (i.e. the vaccines for 5+, because under 5 don't count as real people just yet), we have a treatment (the MAB from Pfizer and I think another one though not enough of it for people) and we have a relatively mild, if very contagious strain of the disease. I find it hard to see when we'd have a better time to try and accept that we're into a new normal...
FIFY
Sure you've got a point. When do you think society should start moving on then? Once kids under 5 are vaccinated and manufacturing capacity for the treatment has picked up?
COVID sucks, don't get me wrong. I don't want people to die from it and I don't want people to suffer from long COVID. It's also here to stay.
The question I think about is when do we start to accept the new normal? Are we going to go through shutdowns for 1-3 months every winter going forward?
Right now, we have a prophylaxis (i.e. the vaccines for 5+, because under 5 don't count as real people just yet), we have a treatment (the MAB from Pfizer and I think another one though not enough of it for people) and we have a relatively mild, if very contagious strain of the disease. I find it hard to see when we'd have a better time to try and accept that we're into a new normal...
FIFY
What puzzles me is that moving on is seen as imperative, but getting the excess death rate down to the level of Canada or Germany is not.
Are we okay with current air travel safety protocols? Seeing as the TSA isn't very effective (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgoldstein/2017/11/09/tsa-misses-70-of-fake-weapons-but-thats-an-improvement/?sh=7c05af942a38), it seems to be mostly theater, while simultaneously costing billions of dollars and wasting a lot of travelers' time.
What puzzles me is that moving on is seen as imperative, but getting the excess death rate down to the level of Canada or Germany is not.
Twenty years on, we're still fine with post-9-11 air travel safety and surveillance protocols because ~3,000 people died due to that attack. We're back to losing that many Americans to COVID every 2–3 days.
Are we okay with current air travel safety protocols? Seeing as the TSA isn't very effective (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgoldstein/2017/11/09/tsa-misses-70-of-fake-weapons-but-thats-an-improvement/?sh=7c05af942a38), it seems to be mostly theater, while simultaneously costing billions of dollars and wasting a lot of travelers' time.
COVID sucks, don't get me wrong. I don't want people to die from it and I don't want people to suffer from long COVID. It's also here to stay.
The question I think about is when do we start to accept the new normal? Are we going to go through shutdowns for 1-3 months every winter going forward?
Right now, we have a prophylaxis (i.e. the vaccines for 5+, because under 5 don't count as real people just yet), we have a treatment (the MAB from Pfizer and I think another one though not enough of it for people) and we have a relatively mild, if very contagious strain of the disease. I find it hard to see when we'd have a better time to try and accept that we're into a new normal...
FIFY
Sure you've got a point. When do you think society should start moving on then? Once kids under 5 are vaccinated and manufacturing capacity for the treatment has picked up?
- Vaccine for all
So your opinion is that we should have vaccines for every last breathing person on the... planet? Or just the country? Also, do you really expect 50.1% of the population to agree to that given that would absolutely be a "new normal" for how to deal with pandemics? Also, better get on the phone with Fauci and Biden. Fauci is definitely signaling that we will go back to normal-ish when the virus is endemic not pandemic and that the trigger will not be vaccines for all.
Are we okay with current air travel safety protocols? Seeing as the TSA isn't very effective (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgoldstein/2017/11/09/tsa-misses-70-of-fake-weapons-but-thats-an-improvement/?sh=7c05af942a38), it seems to be mostly theater, while simultaneously costing billions of dollars and wasting a lot of travelers' time.
It is mostly security theater. I'm not aware of any effort to get rid of it, even as minuscule as a hashtag. So I guess we are ok with it.
*It remains to be seen if the Spanish Flu is at all comparable. Considering our increased medical knowledge, technology (treatments to vaccines), we ought to have had a substantial leg up over the Spanish Flu pandemic, but as time goes on it and we head into the 3rd year, it seems more deadly/more long-term consequences.
How have we not “moved on”, though?Well, from my view my kid had the sniffles last week and so I was told I needed to give him a COVID test and he then spent 5 days out of school because of a virus that caused slight sniffles that resolved themselves in less than 24 hours. I'm RE so this wasn't much skin off my back, although he finds it stressful to miss school, but had I been working I would have had to figure out WTF I was going to do with him for a week in quarantine while I worked.
You can go out to dinner, fly somewhere on vacation, send your kids to school, have a party, go to the gym - if those things feel safe and important to *you*.
A relatively few places require masks when cases are high.
For me it makes the most sense to tie it to local case counts. In my community, we are at the highest level of hospitalizations that we have even been for the entire pandemic, which is roughly an order of magnitude higher than what we experience during most peak flu seasons.
How have we not “moved on”, though?Well, from my view my kid had the sniffles last week and so I was told I needed to give him a COVID test and he then spent 5 days out of school because of a virus that caused slight sniffles that resolved themselves in less than 24 hours. I'm RE so this wasn't much skin off my back, although he finds it stressful to miss school, but had I been working I would have had to figure out WTF I was going to do with him for a week in quarantine while I worked.
You can go out to dinner, fly somewhere on vacation, send your kids to school, have a party, go to the gym - if those things feel safe and important to *you*.
A relatively few places require masks when cases are high.
I don't call any of that normal.
Our local TSA found a loaded gun in a carryon, so there's at least anecdata that I like.What puzzles me is that moving on is seen as imperative, but getting the excess death rate down to the level of Canada or Germany is not.
Twenty years on, we're still fine with post-9-11 air travel safety and surveillance protocols because ~3,000 people died due to that attack. We're back to losing that many Americans to COVID every 2–3 days.
Are we okay with current air travel safety protocols? Seeing as the TSA isn't very effective (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgoldstein/2017/11/09/tsa-misses-70-of-fake-weapons-but-thats-an-improvement/?sh=7c05af942a38), it seems to be mostly theater, while simultaneously costing billions of dollars and wasting a lot of travelers' time.
In Italy the law requires wearing a mask outdoors. But then you can go inside a busy restaurant or bar and sit down unmasked INDOORS surrounded by many others... does this make any sense?
Enough of these silly rules and laws that are just for theater. It's refreshing to see UK and Ireland eliminating all covid restrictions and I hope they set the precedent for the rest of Europe and North America where vaccine and treatments have been long widely accessible.
The prioritization of indoor dining has been bonkers to me for this entire pandemic. There’s no rational world where schools are closed and indoor dining is open. The respective importance and risk levels of those two things are worlds apart… and yet we do not live in a rational world. The idea that so many places also kept theaters (both movie and live performance) closed for so much longer than restaurants is especially frustrating for me, both as a performer and movie enthusiast. It’s easy to just require masks on in the theater the whole time.In Italy the law requires wearing a mask outdoors. But then you can go inside a busy restaurant or bar and sit down unmasked INDOORS surrounded by many others... does this make any sense?
Enough of these silly rules and laws that are just for theater. It's refreshing to see UK and Ireland eliminating all covid restrictions and I hope they set the precedent for the rest of Europe and North America where vaccine and treatments have been long widely accessible.
Outdoor mask wearing is pretty silly. But then again, so is indoor dining right now IMO.
That said, eating is one of the few things you CAN'T do with a mask on. For everything else that you can do with a mask on, it makes sense to require it where hospital loads are high, because risk is cumulative.
How have we not “moved on”, though?
You can go out to dinner, fly somewhere on vacation, send your kids to school, have a party, go to the gym - if those things feel safe and important to *you*.
A relatively few places require masks when cases are high.
There’s no rational world where schools are closed and indoor dining is open.
Yeah, we did the right thing and reported my wife testing positive to our 4 year old's daycare. Now i know why people don't do the right thing. We were going to hold him and his older sister out of school and watch for symptoms for the entire time my wife had to stay out of work and then send them back. That's how it works with my daughter's kindergarten. Out for 5 days and then mask for 5 more. Not so for daycare. He has to quarantine for 10 days, but the kicker is his quarantine doesn't start until my wife's quarantine is over. So he has to remain out of daycare for over 2 weeks because he's a close contact.
I don't want to downplay the seriousness of Omicron for some people, but it's literally been a mild cold for all of us. My wife said allergy season is worse for her and I just ran my fastest 2 miles of the year with it today, went on a 10 mile bike ride yesterday, etc. My daughter and son spent all day outside running around yesterday, jumping on the trampoline, etc.
My husband is now on day 7 of symptoms. He was in bed last night by 9:30 after napping from 5:30-7 pm. He's working remotely again and will probably need a nap to get through the day. We're hoping he doesn't end up with long COVID complications. He's 46 and otherwise in good health.
The prioritization of indoor dining has been bonkers to me for this entire pandemic. There’s no rational world where schools are closed and indoor dining is open. The respective importance and risk levels of those two things are worlds apart… and yet we do not live in a rational world. The idea that so many places also kept theaters (both movie and live performance) closed for so much longer than restaurants is especially frustrating for me, both as a performer and movie enthusiast. It’s easy to just require masks on in the theater the whole time.In Italy the law requires wearing a mask outdoors. But then you can go inside a busy restaurant or bar and sit down unmasked INDOORS surrounded by many others... does this make any sense?
Enough of these silly rules and laws that are just for theater. It's refreshing to see UK and Ireland eliminating all covid restrictions and I hope they set the precedent for the rest of Europe and North America where vaccine and treatments have been long widely accessible.
Outdoor mask wearing is pretty silly. But then again, so is indoor dining right now IMO.
That said, eating is one of the few things you CAN'T do with a mask on. For everything else that you can do with a mask on, it makes sense to require it where hospital loads are high, because risk is cumulative.
The Omicron wave will pass soon and then I’ll be back to the level of normalcy I enjoyed in May-June and October-November of 2021. Until this wave passes though, I’ll be more averse to indoor and un-masked interactions with people outside my household.
How have we not “moved on”, though?
You can go out to dinner, fly somewhere on vacation, send your kids to school, have a party, go to the gym - if those things feel safe and important to *you*.
A relatively few places require masks when cases are high.
Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.
——
And to chime in with my general sentiment towards the topic of the thread: I think “back to normal” is pretty much warranted when we’re in the lulls in between variants. Before Delta and before Omicron there were long periods where most people were behaving with a much higher risk tolerance, and case counts remained low, demonstrating those behaviors weren’t causing big problems. At this point, new waves are caused by variants as opposed to behavior/policy change, and vaccines that prevent serious illness are widely available. As long as community spread is low and hospitals aren’t overwhelmed, we can chill a bit. The problem is that many people don’t want to deal with complicated and changing conditions, and so they let their guard down back when vaccines became available and they’re not going to put it back up come hell or high water. I personally wouldn’t join the people who have remained in personal lock-down this whole time either, but at least they’re not causing problems for everyone else.
The Omicron wave will pass soon and then I’ll be back to the level of normalcy I enjoyed in May-June and October-November of 2021. Until this wave passes though, I’ll be more averse to indoor and un-masked interactions with people outside my household.
I'm not in full lockdown either and adjust my level of exposure up and down based on pandemic conditions, but I'm not eating in restaurants or going to the gym until this latest wave calms down.
I just got off a call with a coworker about my age who has sounded absolutely miserable on the last few calls because she's had ongoing covid symptoms for weeks now that she just can't shake, and I know someone currently quarantined in a London hotel on her first trip to the UK because she caught COVID just before leaving the US but didn't test positive until after arriving on her vacation. Great vacation, right? I also know someone who has been sick ever since spending the holidays in Vegas. You just can't "go back to normal" under these circumstances. You can try, but you'll probably be sick for a while or worse. Is that worth it? If you can avoid it, to me, the answer is no. Which is why I'm about to go for yet another cold January run instead of being in a nice warm gym. Whatever you choose, this virus is going to inconvenience you one way or another.
Your health is not my responsibility.
Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.
This is so disheartening.
Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.
This is so disheartening.
Yea, this sounds horrible.
Adults many of whom don’t care about being safe.Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.
This is so disheartening.
Yea, this sounds horrible.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.
This is so disheartening.
Yea, this sounds horrible.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.
How have we not “moved on”, though?
You can go out to dinner, fly somewhere on vacation, send your kids to school, have a party, go to the gym - if those things feel safe and important to *you*.
A relatively few places require masks when cases are high.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.
Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.
Adults many of whom don’t care about being safe.
It wasn’t lost on my 9yo that he was stuck at home, missing a week of school and sports even though he felt fine while also watching news reports of our entire city, unmasked, in packed bars celebrating our NFL team’s playoff win.
The more I think about the more angry it makes me.
Because just like another mom said to me “if you wouldn’t have tested him then we all could have gone on like normal”
After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.
So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...
Adults many of whom don’t care about being safe.
It wasn’t lost on my 9yo that he was stuck at home, missing a week of school and sports even though he felt fine while also watching news reports of our entire city, unmasked, in packed bars celebrating our NFL team’s playoff win.
Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.
Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.
Safer, but not safe. Covid deaths are not 100% among unvaccinated. Both Mrs.Jones and Mr.Phillips are in the demographics that is likely to take Covid significantly worse than others, even if they don't die. Also, hard to imagine for most people on this board, but they can't be choosy about where they work.
Adults many of whom don’t care about being safe.
It wasn’t lost on my 9yo that he was stuck at home, missing a week of school and sports even though he felt fine while also watching news reports of our entire city, unmasked, in packed bars celebrating our NFL team’s playoff win.
The more I think about the more angry it makes me.
Because just like another mom said to me “if you wouldn’t have tested him then we all could have gone on like normal”
I think that this is a really good point. Society had a certain amount of COVID case capacity. A lot of reasonable people could debate what to spend that capacity on be it government services, supply chain, or unmasked small children in schools. What did we spend it on? Bars and sportsball and going to the bars after a sportsball games. 'Murica.
After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.
So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...
Not really a choice, regardless. Unless you're going to lie, Hawaii won't let you in if you have a close contact. We traveled there in October and that place is super strict.
I have an ethics background, and I still personally feel that the the hierarchy of treatment ought to be vaccinated > unvaccinated when there is insufficient capacity. You made your bed, you lie in it. That goes completely against ethical reasoning though. I could not be a clinician.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.
Yes, that as well is a terrible situation. So what we need to do is a simple societal-level prognosis. We know, roughly, how many people die from Covid. We can likely project how many more deaths/long covid are caused by unmasked, playing children compared to masked ones. All we have to do is put a value to that number as well as a value to the damage we're doing to school children by masking up endlessly. It's a hard calculation to make and should be done by professionals with open communication. But the fact of the matter is that at some point we cannot save everyone. Some of these rules are treating this like the unknown, untreatable disesease of spring of 2020... where we were flatting the curve to try to buy us some time to figure out what was going on. It's like we're still sprinting when we should be running a marathon.
If we try to prevent as many deaths as we can, with no limit, then we should ban cars, sugar, banana peels and everything else with a slight risk. We make this calculation as a society all the time.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.
Yes, that as well is a terrible situation. So what we need to do is a simple societal-level prognosis. We know, roughly, how many people die from Covid. We can likely project how many more deaths/long covid are caused by unmasked, playing children compared to masked ones. All we have to do is put a value to that number as well as a value to the damage we're doing to school children by masking up endlessly. It's a hard calculation to make and should be done by professionals with open communication. But the fact of the matter is that at some point we cannot save everyone. Some of these rules are treating this like the unknown, untreatable disesease of spring of 2020... where we were flatting the curve to try to buy us some time to figure out what was going on. It's like we're still sprinting when we should be running a marathon.
If we try to prevent as many deaths as we can, with no limit, then we should ban cars, sugar, banana peels and everything else with a slight risk. We make this calculation as a society all the time.
If we want to live in a fantasy world where the US government is functional and trustworthy we could also choose to give Mrs. Jones and Mr.Phillips long term leave with pay and hire some people who are less at risk. Also, feel free to ban cars and sugar while you are at it.
After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.
So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...
Not really a choice, regardless. Unless you're going to lie, Hawaii won't let you in if you have a close contact. We traveled there in October and that place is super strict.
After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.
So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...
Not really a choice, regardless. Unless you're going to lie, Hawaii won't let you in if you have a close contact. We traveled there in October and that place is super strict.
Not according to their latest guidance (assuming we remain symptom free and test negative on day 5 after exposure):
https://health.hawaii.gov/news/newsroom/doh-revises-states-isolation-quarantine-policy/ (https://health.hawaii.gov/news/newsroom/doh-revises-states-isolation-quarantine-policy/)
I have an ethics background, and I still personally feel that the the hierarchy of treatment ought to be vaccinated > unvaccinated when there is insufficient capacity. You made your bed, you lie in it. That goes completely against ethical reasoning though. I could not be a clinician.
I'm actually curious to hear you explanation as to why it goes "completely against ethical reasoning." To the extent that Oxford Languages defines ethics as "the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles" and moral principles are arguably provably relative, couldn't it go either way?
I would add my own twist: we could have prioritized medical conditions that aren't COVID above COVID and built a bunch of field hospitals for the COVID patients, without regard to vaccine status.
I have an ethics background, and I still personally feel that the the hierarchy of treatment ought to be vaccinated > unvaccinated when there is insufficient capacity. You made your bed, you lie in it. That goes completely against ethical reasoning though. I could not be a clinician.
I'm actually curious to hear you explanation as to why it goes "completely against ethical reasoning." To the extent that Oxford Languages defines ethics as "the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles" and moral principles are arguably provably relative, couldn't it go either way?
I would add my own twist: we could have prioritized medical conditions that aren't COVID above COVID and built a bunch of field hospitals for the COVID patients, without regard to vaccine status.
We're not setting up field hospitals for COVID patients in Michigan this wave because there aren't enough clinical staff to run them. We had them in Detroit and Grand Rapids in 2020, before the clinicians burned out and started leaving the profession in droves.
How have we not “moved on”, though?
You can go out to dinner, fly somewhere on vacation, send your kids to school, have a party, go to the gym - if those things feel safe and important to *you*.
A relatively few places require masks when cases are high.
I think this very much depends where you are.
Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces. The cafeteria isn't large enough for everyone to use it in this configuration, so they set up a big tent covering a portion of the playground and have half the kids eat out there, yes even in January. Hardly seems like "moved on" to me.
We have a statewide requirement to wear masks in essentially all indoor public places, and requirements to prove you're up to date on your shots to access many of these places. My curling club has been allowing games with masks all year, but we shut down the bar once omicron emerged. Not "moved on" at all.
Different areas are different though! We spent a couple weeks in the Midwest over the holidays visiting family, and it was basically night and day. Even at airports where a federal mask mandate persists, many folks weren't wearing masks. Watching sporting events taking place in that area, I've seen basically like a 5% mask wearing rate. A very different set of customs has emerged there.
After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.
So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...
Not really a choice, regardless. Unless you're going to lie, Hawaii won't let you in if you have a close contact. We traveled there in October and that place is super strict.
Not according to their latest guidance (assuming we remain symptom free and test negative on day 5 after exposure):
https://health.hawaii.gov/news/newsroom/doh-revises-states-isolation-quarantine-policy/ (https://health.hawaii.gov/news/newsroom/doh-revises-states-isolation-quarantine-policy/)
That's not their requirements for traveling to Hawaii. There is a questionnaire about exposure that you need to fill out prior to departure that asks if you've been in close contact with anyone with a positive covid covid test within 2 weeks (10 days?).
I'm just gonna drop this here and run...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/kids-masks-schools-weak-science/621133/
I've read a lot of these studies over the last six months or so. In doing so, I've started to really question to what extent masking is an evidence-based intervention and to what extent it has just become another way to polarize ourselves and identify with our preferred "in group." (I honestly don't know the answer to that, and I'm finding that I have a lot more questions than answers these days.)
I'm just gonna drop this here and run...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/kids-masks-schools-weak-science/621133/
I've read a lot of these studies over the last six months or so. In doing so, I've started to really question to what extent masking is an evidence-based intervention and to what extent it has just become another way to polarize ourselves and identify with our preferred "in group." (I honestly don't know the answer to that, and I'm finding that I have a lot more questions than answers these days.)
I'm just gonna drop this here and run...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/kids-masks-schools-weak-science/621133/
I've read a lot of these studies over the last six months or so. In doing so, I've started to really question to what extent masking is an evidence-based intervention and to what extent it has just become another way to polarize ourselves and identify with our preferred "in group." (I honestly don't know the answer to that, and I'm finding that I have a lot more questions than answers these days.)
Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.
Safer, but not safe. Covid deaths are not 100% among unvaccinated. Both Mrs.Jones and Mr.Phillips are in the demographics that is likely to take Covid significantly worse than others, even if they don't die. Also, hard to imagine for most people on this board, but they can't be choosy about where they work.
For those decrying what this is doing to our kids, I'm a bit fascinated because I have plenty of friends bemoaning what happened when masks were removed in schools, and those schools had outbreaks and had to shut down in-person learning entirely. And what is happening to their children's education due to the revolving door of teachers and glorified babysitters running classrooms. Some of that might ease if we stopped quarantining, but I don't see how we could argue that all of it would, especially when schools that remove protections tend to see more disease (curious that, no?), as StarBright attested to.
For those decrying what this is doing to our kids, I'm a bit fascinated because I have plenty of friends bemoaning what happened when masks were removed in schools, and those schools had outbreaks and had to shut down in-person learning entirely. And what is happening to their children's education due to the revolving door of teachers and glorified babysitters running classrooms. Some of that might ease if we stopped quarantining, but I don't see how we could argue that all of it would, especially when schools that remove protections tend to see more disease (curious that, no?), as StarBright attested to.
So put valuation to all of those events and run an equation. It boils down to: Is masking kids > not masking them, all variables roughly accounted for? We can quantify most of this stuff with fairly good accuracy- virus experts can predict where outbreaks are going to happen and to what extent. Both "sides" are only worrying about their particular brand of fear- whether that be overloaded hospitals, long covid, or permanently de-socialized generation of citizens. I don't want to downplay the seriousness of Covid- but it seems that there are some who are not concerned at all about the very real costs of this groundhog day of limbo. I don't actually know the answer, other than that I think that we have the tools to figure it out, knowing that whatever decision we make there WILL be costs. I will happily keep following the rules (as I have been) once I know that we aren't reacting based on intuition. Coming from a hypochondriac- there's real damage to be done when hyper focused on illness.
As far as fear goes; we should all be absolutely terrified of chairs. Certain researchers have been studying and showing that there is a higher correlate to sitting for cardiovascular disease than BMI or any of the other factors that we typically measure. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7554455/
That's not to make light of Covid (I am vaxxed and boosted and doing my best to avoid it, although with how it travels through people in my age group I may have had it already and been none the wiser). It's just - If we're being hyper sensitive to Covid we may be misplacing some of that energy. I am not certain of that last point, just suspicious of it.
I don't want to downplay the seriousness of Covid- but it seems that there are some who are not concerned at all about the very real costs of this groundhog day of limbo.
This shit is no joke. I thought I escaped with a week of heavy fatigue and some sniffles/scratchy throat. Nope. Full-blown upper respiratory symptoms for the past 24 hours, plus fever. I passed out on the sofa for 2 hours this afternoon. Took a short shower because even the thought of both shampooing and conditioning my hair was exhausting.
This is after full vaccination and a booster in early December. Hopefully this is the worst of it. I've never been this sick with just a cold.
This shit is no joke. I thought I escaped with a week of heavy fatigue and some sniffles/scratchy throat. Nope. Full-blown upper respiratory symptoms for the past 24 hours, plus fever. I passed out on the sofa for 2 hours this afternoon. Took a short shower because even the thought of both shampooing and conditioning my hair was exhausting.
This is after full vaccination and a booster in early December. Hopefully this is the worst of it. I've never been this sick with just a cold.
Internet hugs for you and hope you have a full return to health, and very soon. This shit is not to be messed with.
I saw on the news tonight a heart transplant patient in Utah is stubbornly denying the vaccine, which is required before the hospital he's in will agree to give him a new heart. He'd rather dig into his misguided beliefs than comply with the thing that will literally save his life.
QuoteI don't want to downplay the seriousness of Covid- but it seems that there are some who are not concerned at all about the very real costs of this groundhog day of limbo.
But how do you define "limbo" vs "new normal"?
If we decide that kids will wear masks indoors at school (and adults will wear masks indoors) from now on - or, whenever it's cold/flu/COVID season, then it's not limbo anymore, is it? I will personally wear a mask on a plane forever and ever now.
The article linked is pretty clear that the problem is caused by people being sedentary - not by chairs.
I think the point is that as long as the virus is raging, there is no getting back to normal whether you have restrictions or not. The virus itself is restricting personal freedom regardless. You can try to live a normal life, but you'll be impacted by staffing shortages right now or personal illness when everyone is getting sick. There's no way around it.
If we try to prevent as many deaths as we can, with no limit, then we should ban cars, sugar, banana peels and everything else with a slight risk. We make this calculation as a society all the time.
If we want to live in a fantasy world where the US government is functional and trustworthy ... Also, feel free to ban cars and sugar while you are at it.
I have an ethics background, and I still personally feel that the the hierarchy of treatment ought to be vaccinated > unvaccinated when there is insufficient capacity. You made your bed, you lie in it. That goes completely against ethical reasoning though. I could not be a clinician.
I'm actually curious to hear you explanation as to why it goes "completely against ethical reasoning." To the extent that Oxford Languages defines ethics as "the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles" and moral principles are arguably provably relative, couldn't it go either way?
I would add my own twist: we could have prioritized medical conditions that aren't COVID above COVID and built a bunch of field hospitals for the COVID patients, without regard to vaccine status.
Reading some of these replies would make someone think y'all are being asked to do something hard instead of wearing a piece of fabric over your pie holes during a global pandemic that's taken out more than 5 and a half million members of our species.
Pathetic.
Reading some of these replies would make someone think y'all are being asked to do something hard instead of wearing a piece of fabric over your pie holes during a global pandemic that's taken out more than 5 and a half million members of our species.
Pathetic.
Reading some of these replies would make someone think y'all are being asked to do something hard instead of wearing a piece of fabric over your pie holes during a global pandemic that's taken out more than 5 and a half million members of our species
Pathetic.
Part of the problem is that there seems to be a tendency to say "requirements to wear masks are inconsistent/nonsensical so I'm going to use that as a reason not to bother". When the logical reaction would be "requirements to wear masks are inconsistent/nonsensical for the following reasons so I am going to adopt my own logical policy". But there does seem to be an illogical tendency to throw the masks out of the pram, just as there is also an illogical tendency to throw the vaccines out of the pram. Humans being an illogical species overall, of course.Reading some of these replies would make someone think y'all are being asked to do something hard instead of wearing a piece of fabric over your pie holes during a global pandemic that's taken out more than 5 and a half million members of our species.
Pathetic.
No one in here is strictly complaining about the actual wearing of the masks or even the effectiveness of them. Read the thread again. Instead of trying to understand the nuance of the argument, you've straw manned yourself into a black and white issue, which discussion has little recourse. People are frustrated not with the "pie hole covering" but with the inconsistency of it all and the nonsensical priorities. Most people have strong opinions here but are having a cordial (for the internet) discussion of points.
Specifically with masks, the idea has always been the inconsistent message from what should be trusted sources. First, don't wear a mask it is not needed. Then wear a cloth mask. Then don't wear a mask. Then wear only a surgical or higher grade mask. The changes often seem to happen due to politics. Not to mention that risk factors are rarely considered. IE: An elementary school wearing masks seems silly given the low risk of severe illness. Wearing a mask while waiting for a table, where you will unmask immediately, seems ludicrous.
The article linked is pretty clear that the problem is caused by people being sedentary - not by chairs.
Yeah, that was all hyperbole. What I'm getting at is that if we are going to be taking extreme measures to protect public health at the expense of personal freedom, then there are many more things on the table. We could ban sugar and vegetable oil and significantly reduce obesity and increase our resistance for the next pandemic (which likely will be coming more frequently with climate change and habitat expansion). We could have the equivalent of a "vaccine card" which allows people to own a vehicle if they have a low enough BMI. Or any other number of long term beneficial restrictions.
Reading some of these replies would make someone think y'all are being asked to do something hard instead of wearing a piece of fabric over your pie holes during a global pandemic that's taken out more than 5 and a half million members of our species
Pathetic.
Yup that's it, that's the only difficulty everyone is facing. The fact that my son that doesn't have covid and isn't sick got kicked out of daycare for 15 days because my wife tested positive and somebody has to take care of him for over 2 weeks while we are both working is completely normal. It's just covering your pie holes that's the frustrating part of all of this....
Reading some of these replies would make someone think y'all are being asked to do something hard instead of wearing a piece of fabric over your pie holes during a global pandemic that's taken out more than 5 and a half million members of our species
Pathetic.
Yup that's it, that's the only difficulty everyone is facing. The fact that my son that doesn't have covid and isn't sick got kicked out of daycare for 15 days because my wife tested positive and somebody has to take care of him for over 2 weeks while we are both working is completely normal. It's just covering your pie holes that's the frustrating part of all of this....
Yes, taking care of your kid to make sure he doesn't spread the disease is such a sacrifice.
If the child's in daycare that means they are unlikely to be vaccinated. That means they can catch and give the disease to other kids, with fatal outcomes. Since the kid is presumably living with his mom, it's very possible he could catch it and spread it.
Yup that's it, that's the only difficulty everyone is facing. The fact that my son that doesn't have covid and isn't sick got kicked out of daycare for 15 days because my wife tested positive and somebody has to take care of him for over 2 weeks while we are both working is completely normal. It's just covering your pie holes that's the frustrating part of all of this....
If the child's in daycare that means they are unlikely to be vaccinated. That means they can catch and give the disease to other kids, with fatal outcomes. Since the kid is presumably living with his mom, it's very possible he could catch it and spread it.
+1
Vaccines are irrelevant when you are talking about children in daycare. Where you've got an unvaccinated, poorly masking, and touches-lots-of-things crowd, um yeah it makes sense that the daycare wants to stop you at the door before you expose people and not after you have it and have exposed people! Also consider you are looking at harm to 1 family. We're looking at harm to 10 (average people in the smallest daycare room in our facility) to 20 (average people in largest daycare rooms in our facilities) families.
Moreover, here the parent had it, so presumably already had to be out of work while contagious, so there's only an addition of a few more days to that for the child's exposure waiting time.
Maybe the entity to get mad at is those setting the sick policies rather than those trying to prevent others from getting sick? Something to think about whether your ire is appropriately directed or not.
Yup that's it, that's the only difficulty everyone is facing. The fact that my son that doesn't have covid and isn't sick got kicked out of daycare for 15 days because my wife tested positive and somebody has to take care of him for over 2 weeks while we are both working is completely normal. It's just covering your pie holes that's the frustrating part of all of this....
Look, I empathize with you—that's clearly a difficult situation. But it is absolutely the correct response. How irresponsible would it be for the parent of one of your sons' peers to bring their likely-sick child into daycare, where they'll infect the other children?
It's a shame we don't have better social support mechanisms in place. Your wife should have been able to take 2 weeks off, and suffered no financial penalty for doing so.
You literally said the upthread the only difficulty anyone is facing due to the pandemic is wearing a piece of cloth over their mouth. You are gaslighting the entire discussion.
So moving forward if someone in your family gets sick you should be forced to stay home for 15 days just in case you get sick?
What amazes me is how civil this discussion is. If we were on Twitter we would all be fascists or communists, depending on point of view.
What amazes me is how civil this discussion is. If we were on Twitter we would all be fascists or communists, depending on point of view.
Well, it was (for the most part) until Warlord entered the discussion.
If the child's in daycare that means they are unlikely to be vaccinated. That means they can catch and give the disease to other kids, with fatal outcomes. Since the kid is presumably living with his mom, it's very possible he could catch it and spread it.
+1
Vaccines are irrelevant when you are talking about children in daycare. Where you've got an unvaccinated, poorly masking, and touches-lots-of-things crowd, um yeah it makes sense that the daycare wants to stop you at the door before you expose people and not after you have it and have exposed people! Also consider you are looking at harm to 1 family. We're looking at harm to 10 (average people in the smallest daycare room in our facility) to 20 (average people in largest daycare rooms in our facilities) families.
Moreover, here the parent had it, so presumably already had to be out of work while contagious, so there's only an addition of a few more days to that for the child's exposure waiting time.
Maybe the entity to get mad at is those setting the sick policies rather than those trying to prevent others from getting sick? Something to think about whether your ire is appropriately directed or not.
Learn to read. An additional 10 days. His quarantine starts today. My wife tested positive Friday and has been asymptomatic since Sunday. My unvaccinated daughter that tested positive the same day is back in school today.
Yup that's it, that's the only difficulty everyone is facing. The fact that my son that doesn't have covid and isn't sick got kicked out of daycare for 15 days because my wife tested positive and somebody has to take care of him for over 2 weeks while we are both working is completely normal. It's just covering your pie holes that's the frustrating part of all of this....
So moving forward if someone in your family gets sick you should be forced to stay home for 15 days just in case you get sick?
The article linked is pretty clear that the problem is caused by people being sedentary - not by chairs.
Yeah, that was all hyperbole. What I'm getting at is that if we are going to be taking extreme measures to protect public health at the expense of personal freedom, then there are many more things on the table. We could ban sugar and vegetable oil and significantly reduce obesity and increase our resistance for the next pandemic (which likely will be coming more frequently with climate change and habitat expansion). We could have the equivalent of a "vaccine card" which allows people to own a vehicle if they have a low enough BMI. Or any other number of long term beneficial restrictions.
I don't understand. Obesity and diabetes aren't contagious. If everyone at my work and my son's school indulges in nothing but mountain dew and fried chicken it impacts my health exactly zero. I don't think the covid rules are to protect you from your own poor decisions, it's to protect ME from your poor decisions.
I also think companies/states/federal government as applicable, need to work on improving sick leave and ability/options for teleworking.
If the child's in daycare that means they are unlikely to be vaccinated. That means they can catch and give the disease to other kids, with fatal outcomes. Since the kid is presumably living with his mom, it's very possible he could catch it and spread it.
+1
Vaccines are irrelevant when you are talking about children in daycare. Where you've got an unvaccinated, poorly masking, and touches-lots-of-things crowd, um yeah it makes sense that the daycare wants to stop you at the door before you expose people and not after you have it and have exposed people! Also consider you are looking at harm to 1 family. We're looking at harm to 10 (average people in the smallest daycare room in our facility) to 20 (average people in largest daycare rooms in our facilities) families.
Moreover, here the parent had it, so presumably already had to be out of work while contagious, so there's only an addition of a few more days to that for the child's exposure waiting time.
Maybe the entity to get mad at is those setting the sick policies rather than those trying to prevent others from getting sick? Something to think about whether your ire is appropriately directed or not.
Learn to read. An additional 10 days. His quarantine starts today. My wife tested positive Friday and has been asymptomatic since Sunday. My unvaccinated daughter that tested positive the same day is back in school today.
Hi! If you would like to challenge my reading skills, I would like to in return note that you did not say it was an additional 10 days in your post, only just now. (And I note that many places are sticking with the original 10 days for a COVID positive diagnosis.) Specifically, you wrote:Yup that's it, that's the only difficulty everyone is facing. The fact that my son that doesn't have covid and isn't sick got kicked out of daycare for 15 days because my wife tested positive and somebody has to take care of him for over 2 weeks while we are both working is completely normal. It's just covering your pie holes that's the frustrating part of all of this....So moving forward if someone in your family gets sick you should be forced to stay home for 15 days just in case you get sick?
My kid got COVID because daycare removed masks and I *did* have to stay home for 15+ days. Yes, yes I think that if you have a highly communicable disease in your home, it is reasonable to ask you to stay away while potentially contagious.
I also think companies/states/federal government as applicable, need to work on improving sick leave and ability/options for teleworking.
If the child's in daycare that means they are unlikely to be vaccinated. That means they can catch and give the disease to other kids, with fatal outcomes. Since the kid is presumably living with his mom, it's very possible he could catch it and spread it.
Also, there have been breakthrough cases.
But yeah, taking care of your kid is such a sacrifice. God, you might lose money. The horror.
If the child's in daycare that means they are unlikely to be vaccinated. That means they can catch and give the disease to other kids, with fatal outcomes. Since the kid is presumably living with his mom, it's very possible he could catch it and spread it.
+1
Vaccines are irrelevant when you are talking about children in daycare. Where you've got an unvaccinated, poorly masking, and touches-lots-of-things crowd, um yeah it makes sense that the daycare wants to stop you at the door before you expose people and not after you have it and have exposed people! Also consider you are looking at harm to 1 family. We're looking at harm to 10 (average people in the smallest daycare room in our facility) to 20 (average people in largest daycare rooms in our facilities) families.
Moreover, here the parent had it, so presumably already had to be out of work while contagious, so there's only an addition of a few more days to that for the child's exposure waiting time.
Maybe the entity to get mad at is those setting the sick policies rather than those trying to prevent others from getting sick? Something to think about whether your ire is appropriately directed or not.
Learn to read. An additional 10 days. His quarantine starts today. My wife tested positive Friday and has been asymptomatic since Sunday. My unvaccinated daughter that tested positive the same day is back in school today.
Hi! If you would like to challenge my reading skills, I would like to in return note that you did not say it was an additional 10 days in your post, only just now. (And I note that many places are sticking with the original 10 days for a COVID positive diagnosis.) Specifically, you wrote:Yup that's it, that's the only difficulty everyone is facing. The fact that my son that doesn't have covid and isn't sick got kicked out of daycare for 15 days because my wife tested positive and somebody has to take care of him for over 2 weeks while we are both working is completely normal. It's just covering your pie holes that's the frustrating part of all of this....So moving forward if someone in your family gets sick you should be forced to stay home for 15 days just in case you get sick?
My kid got COVID because daycare removed masks and I *did* have to stay home for 15+ days. Yes, yes I think that if you have a highly communicable disease in your home, it is reasonable to ask you to stay away while potentially contagious.
I also think companies/states/federal government as applicable, need to work on improving sick leave and ability/options for teleworking.
That's fair. I mentioned it earlier up thread, but mentioned the 15 days in that specific message. 5 days for my wife and 10 days for my son starting when my wife's quarantine ends. I apologize for my brash response. I was just expressing specific frustration with what's going on that is beyond simply covering my mouth with cloth. It's obviously not the end of the world, but definitely not a pre-pandemic normality. I personally think it's silly that kids have to quarantine for 10 days following the last person who tested positive in the house's quarantine ends, but since we all got it but him we hopefully won't have to worry about this again for a year or so.
Depending on the age of Missourah's child, their frustration could also be because their daycare is not following current quarantine guidance , which is quarantine for 5 days after last exposure and wear a mask in public for 5 days after that(at least in CO):
https://covid19.colorado.gov/isolation-and-quarantine
When my family went through this the last exposure was the last day the household member had symptoms. this means Missourah's child would quarantine for 5 days from Sunday then return to daycare with a mask for five days.
Staying home with a quarantining child may not be too tough for working parents that can wfh, but is hell for those that cannot. I cannot imagine what working parents went through in 20/21 if their schools were all online.
Depending on the age of Missourah's child, their frustration could also be because their daycare is not following current quarantine guidance, which is quarantine for 5 days after last exposure and wear a mask in public for 5 days after that (at least in CO):
https://covid19.colorado.gov/isolation-and-quarantine
That's fair. I mentioned it earlier up thread, but mentioned the 15 days in that specific message. 5 days for my wife and 10 days for my son starting when my wife's quarantine ends. I apologize for my brash response. I was just expressing specific frustration with what's going on that is beyond simply covering my mouth with cloth. It's obviously not the end of the world, but definitely not a pre-pandemic normality. I personally think it's silly that kids have to quarantine for 10 days following the last person who tested positive in the house's quarantine ends, but since we all got it but him we hopefully won't have to worry about this again for a year or so.
You may not like the rule, but that doesn't mean they aren't following the guidance. (Also - the guidance sets a minimum not a maximum. So it's not really right to say they aren't following the guidance, hmm? You might object they are more strict but it has a whole different connotation to say they aren't following guidance, which is problematic. I know I'm showing my health care lawyer side here, but it is an important distinction.)
If you want to exceed these guidelines in a way that costs me time and money, you had better have a good reason other than "just being cautious." Maybe the daycare has a number of kids who live with unvaccinated grandparents or something of that nature, in which case it would make sense to go a little bit above the level of precaution that makes sense for the general population. But if that is the case, there should be a daycare option that just goes with the standard guidance that you can switch to. If they're all going above and beyond without any specific reason for doing so, I think that's a problem.
What amazes me is how civil this discussion is. If we were on Twitter we would all be fascists or communists, depending on point of view.
Depending on the age of Missourah's child, their frustration could also be because their daycare is not following current quarantine guidance, which is quarantine for 5 days after last exposure and wear a mask in public for 5 days after that (at least in CO):
https://covid19.colorado.gov/isolation-and-quarantine
So the CDC guidance of 5 days relies on a "well-fitting" mask. The issue is that many kids can't strictly mask. They also likely remove them for lunch, nap, outdoor play. Also, when we pick up and drop off kids, we often see someone (or more than one) with the mast below the nose. That's why my daycare emailed out to all of us to let us know that they were sticking with the 10 days. That's why my work has kept most if not all people in isolation for 10 days rather than 5, because people with dementia cannot be relied upon to mask strictly anytime someone is near them.
You may not like the rule, but that doesn't mean they aren't following the guidance. (Also - the guidance sets a minimum not a maximum. So it's not really right to say they aren't following the guidance, hmm? You might object they are more strict but it has a whole different connotation to say they aren't following guidance, which is problematic. I know I'm showing my health care lawyer side here, but it is an important distinction.)
Not to disregard anybody's illness and I'm sure there are other factors involved, but I'm curious if our pre-existing biases sometimes lead us to either exaggerate or downplay the personal effects of this virus.
Not to disregard anybody's illness and I'm sure there are other factors involved, but I'm curious if our pre-existing biases sometimes lead us to either exaggerate or downplay the personal effects of this virus.
I hinted at that in one of my earlier posts... I have had some issues being a hypochondriac myself (although recognition of this and taking steps to reduce it has helped immensely). A couple of brushes with my mortality and less than ideal health insurance can really send you into a spiral, lol!
For instance... long covid is real, but we have relatively little evidence of what it is or the causes. Based purely on my own personal experience, anxiety plays a significant, if not majority of the role in how your body handles many chronic illnesses. There were things that were happening to me that were not at all related to my original illness two years after the fact and I felt like I was playing whack-a-mole trying to get myself back together. Only after I was prescribed an anti-depressant (as one of the side effects of it would have in theory treated one of my issues) did I clue into this being a mental issue and not a physical one. The fact that an anti-depressant had some success threw me for a loop. So... I cut it off after a month as those things can be really hard to drop once you start dependence on them... and started to work on my mental health. 18 months later and nearly all of my symptoms had dropped. The whole experience was otherworldly for me as I would have never guessed as a younger person that I would be affected by mental health issues. That's just my anecdote, but if certainly changed a lot of how I view the world.
What I'm getting at is that living in an anxious state as a society is likely causing this type of thing to a lot of people. It doesn't take much of a mental trigger for a bit of brain fog sending you into a spiral of very real health side effects. This isn't to say that long covid isn't real - there are definite cases of permanent damage, but I am curious about how much mental health plays a role in things like this. Especially depending on the information you read. If you are constantly aware of how many hospital beds are available in your area, or that aunt that was put on a ventilator... or the new variant that may or may not respond to vaccines... or that side effects can show up in even asymptomatic cases... or that half of society seems to not care... you are in a state of "fight or flight" which strains the immune system. Some people can take that information in and just brush it off- some people, like me, have to make deliberate decisions to cut the information feed as it does more harm than good.
I think there's a LOT of variability with this virus and the way it hits people, and it's very unpredictable. My parents, for example, thought covid was NBD but got hit really hard and the effects lasted for months. Most people, though, should have mild cases just based on the statistics.
Depending on the age of Missourah's child, their frustration could also be because their daycare is not following current quarantine guidance, which is quarantine for 5 days after last exposure and wear a mask in public for 5 days after that (at least in CO):
https://covid19.colorado.gov/isolation-and-quarantine
So the CDC guidance of 5 days relies on a "well-fitting" mask. The issue is that many kids can't strictly mask. They also likely remove them for lunch, nap, outdoor play. Also, when we pick up and drop off kids, we often see someone (or more than one) with the mast below the nose. That's why my daycare emailed out to all of us to let us know that they were sticking with the 10 days. That's why my work has kept most if not all people in isolation for 10 days rather than 5, because people with dementia cannot be relied upon to mask strictly anytime someone is near them.
You may not like the rule, but that doesn't mean they aren't following the guidance. (Also - the guidance sets a minimum not a maximum. So it's not really right to say they aren't following the guidance, hmm? You might object they are more strict but it has a whole different connotation to say they aren't following guidance, which is problematic. I know I'm showing my health care lawyer side here, but it is an important distinction.)
This was largely their argument. They don't want kids wearing masks, they say it's a liability during nap time. I guess my frustration was more along the lines of we would be better off if he had tested positive. His quarantine would have started 5 days sooner. I kind of wish we had known the actual policy. It's possible perhaps even probable he had it, because we all did, just likely asymptomatic, outside of my daughter having an upset stomach for about 6 hours and my wife having a slight headache, congestion, and a light cough we were all asymptomatic. If I had known this was the policy I would have tested the entire family at the same exact time. Just figured we'd test my daughter because she had not been feeling well for a period of time and because she tested positive we'd keep both of them out until she could go back even though he wasn't showing any symptoms.
Now that we've all gotten or are getting COVID during this current wave, I'm seeing something very interesting. I'm not going to mention specific names, but it seems generally the posters who were heavily pro-restrictions and lockdowns from the beginning are basically saying "We're dying! COVID is really bad! I'm worried we'll be permanently damaged!" while those of us who wanted less restrictions and more normal life are saying "We had the sniffles for a couple days, and barely realized we were sick".
Not to disregard anybody's illness and I'm sure there are other factors involved, but I'm curious if our pre-existing biases sometimes lead us to either exaggerate or downplay the personal effects of this virus.
What I'm getting at is that living in an anxious state as a society is likely causing this type of thing to a lot of people. It doesn't take much of a mental trigger for a bit of brain fog sending you into a spiral of very real health side effects. This isn't to say that long covid isn't real - there are definite cases of permanent damage, but I am curious about how much mental health plays a role in things like this. Especially depending on the information you read. If you are constantly aware of how many hospital beds are available in your area, or that aunt that was put on a ventilator... or the new variant that may or may not respond to vaccines... or that side effects can show up in even asymptomatic cases... or that half of society seems to not care... you are in a state of "fight or flight" which strains the immune system. Some people can take that information in and just brush it off- some people, like me, have to make deliberate decisions to cut the information feed as it does more harm than good.
You could have been making literally the same argument the entire pandemic though. You got it and it was just the sniffles, no need for any kind of restrictions at all because it's just ruining the economy and destroying lives and it's not even dangerous as evidence of you only getting the sniffles. No big deal. Except we are still over 900k official deaths in the USA, so it's not just the sniffles for everyone.+1
Even the original OG covid was like 50% asymptomatic, so a very good chance you aren't even aware that you're infected - I believe this was the main reason we adopted masks in the first place, because potentially everyone was a vector without even being aware. The vast majority of the population would say any of the strains of covid that it was no big deal. That's been my experience with most of the people I know that got infected. Many didn't know, and only knew because they were in close contact with someone. Many more had extremely mild symptoms. Some had more severe symptoms, but ultimately no big deal, not even as bad as the flu. But some of them ended up in ICU, and some of them died.
I'm not saying I'm in favor of extreme restrictions or anything, but I just don't find the personal anecdotes of "we caught it and it was no big deal" very convincing.
If you want to exceed these guidelines in a way that costs me time and money, you had better have a good reason other than "just being cautious." Maybe the daycare has a number of kids who live with unvaccinated grandparents or something of that nature, in which case it would make sense to go a little bit above the level of precaution that makes sense for the general population. But if that is the case, there should be a daycare option that just goes with the standard guidance that you can switch to. If they're all going above and beyond without any specific reason for doing so, I think that's a problem.
Ok. You don't like the reason I offered, but it's still a "specific reason". The inability of children in daycare to consistently wear a well-fitting mask is a specific reason. (Yes, it would be great if CDC put out specific daycare guidance, but they don't.)
Here's exactly what my daycare wrote: "We are aware the CDC changed its guidelines for isolating and quarantining. However, because a large part of the recommendations involves stringent mask wearing we will not be adopting these changes. Children under two are not wearing masks and those two and over take them off masks at meal and rest times."
I think that the restrictions we’ve had in the US have been extremely light, and anybody who wants to live a “normal” life can do so, they they may be required to wear a mask, but plenty of places don’t require that. Go on vacation! Go to crowded indoor events! Eat in a restaurant! Nobody is stopping you.
If you want to exceed these guidelines in a way that costs me time and money, you had better have a good reason other than "just being cautious." Maybe the daycare has a number of kids who live with unvaccinated grandparents or something of that nature, in which case it would make sense to go a little bit above the level of precaution that makes sense for the general population. But if that is the case, there should be a daycare option that just goes with the standard guidance that you can switch to. If they're all going above and beyond without any specific reason for doing so, I think that's a problem.
Ok. You don't like the reason I offered, but it's still a "specific reason". The inability of children in daycare to consistently wear a well-fitting mask is a specific reason. (Yes, it would be great if CDC put out specific daycare guidance, but they don't.)
Here's exactly what my daycare wrote: "We are aware the CDC changed its guidelines for isolating and quarantining. However, because a large part of the recommendations involves stringent mask wearing we will not be adopting these changes. Children under two are not wearing masks and those two and over take them off masks at meal and rest times."
I guess the way I see it, one of two things must be true. Option 1: the CDC has declined to issue specific daycare guidelines because they have collected and studied the evidence, determined that daycares don't really have an especially different risk profile to anywhere else that people congregate, and the daycares with stricter-than-recommended quarantine requirements are probably overreacting. Option 2: the CDC has incompetently ignored the evidence that daycares are especially risky, and different quarantine requirements are actually the right way to go. I'm not sure which of these options is true in practice. Again, I sure would like to believe that the CDC knows a thing or two about controlling and preventing disease and that we should be able to trust their recommendations.
I think that the restrictions we’ve had in the US have been extremely light, and anybody who wants to live a “normal” life can do so, they they may be required to wear a mask, but plenty of places don’t require that. Go on vacation! Go to crowded indoor events! Eat in a restaurant! Nobody is stopping you.
(Frankly I see teachers with masks under their noses so maybe age is a bad criterion...)
Now that we've all gotten or are getting COVID during this current wave, I'm seeing something very interesting. I'm not going to mention specific names, but it seems generally the posters who were heavily pro-restrictions and lockdowns from the beginning are basically saying "We're dying! COVID is really bad! I'm worried we'll be permanently damaged!" while those of us who wanted less restrictions and more normal life are saying "We had the sniffles for a couple days, and barely realized we were sick".
Not to disregard anybody's illness and I'm sure there are other factors involved, but I'm curious if our pre-existing biases sometimes lead us to either exaggerate or downplay the personal effects of this virus.
Now that we've all gotten or are getting COVID during this current wave, I'm seeing something very interesting. I'm not going to mention specific names, but it seems generally the posters who were heavily pro-restrictions and lockdowns from the beginning are basically saying "We're dying! COVID is really bad! I'm worried we'll be permanently damaged!" while those of us who wanted less restrictions and more normal life are saying "We had the sniffles for a couple days, and barely realized we were sick"....I mean. If a person who wanted less restrictions and a more normal life were to uh, die of covid, then they wouldn't exactly be here posting about how they had the sniffles for a couple of days.
Not to disregard anybody's illness and I'm sure there are other factors involved, but I'm curious if our pre-existing biases sometimes lead us to either exaggerate or downplay the personal effects of this virus.
Now that we've all gotten or are getting COVID during this current wave, I'm seeing something very interesting. I'm not going to mention specific names, but it seems generally the posters who were heavily pro-restrictions and lockdowns from the beginning are basically saying "We're dying! COVID is really bad! I'm worried we'll be permanently damaged!" while those of us who wanted less restrictions and more normal life are saying "We had the sniffles for a couple days, and barely realized we were sick".
Not to disregard anybody's illness and I'm sure there are other factors involved, but I'm curious if our pre-existing biases sometimes lead us to either exaggerate or downplay the personal effects of this virus.
Nah, there's a whole subreddit that laughs at people who wanted no restrictions and refused to get vaccinated only to die from covid.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/
in case you're curious
I've come to think of this sort of attitude and denial as an expression of mental illness -- very possibly a kind of mental illness that hasn't been seen as such, and didn't have really recognisable signs and symptoms before the last few years. Normally we consider people in that kind of denial to be mentally ill, rather than agreeing that they just have a different opinion about what reality is.Now that we've all gotten or are getting COVID during this current wave, I'm seeing something very interesting. I'm not going to mention specific names, but it seems generally the posters who were heavily pro-restrictions and lockdowns from the beginning are basically saying "We're dying! COVID is really bad! I'm worried we'll be permanently damaged!" while those of us who wanted less restrictions and more normal life are saying "We had the sniffles for a couple days, and barely realized we were sick".
Not to disregard anybody's illness and I'm sure there are other factors involved, but I'm curious if our pre-existing biases sometimes lead us to either exaggerate or downplay the personal effects of this virus.
This is not at all what I've seeing and I'm wondering if it isn't actually a pre-exisiting bias that causes some people to see this as a pre-existing bias. lol
The person I know who has been hit hardest by Covid--got it in summer of 2020, so fairly early on, and is still in very bad physical shape because of it, not able to reliably work, etc.--was the biggest Covid denier I know. In many ways, he still is. His dad is in his 80s and having some significant dimension, flat-affect, and other symptoms. The person attributes those things in large part to "stress caused by being forced to stay home, wear a mask, etc.". He thinks the Covid stats are outright lies. And yet even after having Covid, being hospitalized repeatedly and intubated for quite a while, and still have a body that is nowhere near 100%, his is still downplaying the virus. Even with his own body as evidence, he can't step away from his biases at all. (He's a hard core Trumper, conspiracy guy.) The cognitive dissonance is incredible.
Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.
Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.
Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.
We will keep up masking and social distance until about April, I reckon, just to avoid the end-tail of current Omicron wave. We plan to travel again this year (within Europe - assuming no full-fledge war with Russia). Other than that: keeping up the hygiene and avoidance of crowds (never liked crowds anyway). We've lost interest in eating out or shopping already years ago, so this will not change much. Probably increase social distancing again next autumn to see how SARS-Cov-2 evolves. Then take it from there.
Which activities have you resumed doing and which ones are you not ready for yet, if ever? If you are still holding back from a pre-pandemic activity, do you have some type of metric that will make it okay for you again?
Now, I am in the camp "endgame". We are moving out of Omicron phase over the next few weeks. So, give and take a few weeks, I expect the pandemic in our part of the woods being "over" within the next 6 weeks (my personal estimates based on the figures of ONS and UKHSA plus looking at neighbouring European countries).
In my sphere covid has been a catastrophe in a strange way. It feels like everyone previously had real social lives and kept connections and at least felt obligated to put effort into them. Covid seems to have been a bad influence and allowed them to indulge in isolation and poor mental and physical habits. I thought this would relent when we got vaccinated but it now seems to be a permanent change.
In my sphere covid has been a catastrophe in a strange way. It feels like everyone previously had real social lives and kept connections and at least felt obligated to put effort into them. Covid seems to have been a bad influence and allowed them to indulge in isolation and poor mental and physical habits. I thought this would relent when we got vaccinated but it now seems to be a permanent change.
In my sphere covid has been a catastrophe in a strange way. It feels like everyone previously had real social lives and kept connections and at least felt obligated to put effort into them. Covid seems to have been a bad influence and allowed them to indulge in isolation and poor mental and physical habits. I thought this would relent when we got vaccinated but it now seems to be a permanent change.
People handle things differently. While certainly is for some, isolation isn't a poor mental habit for everyone - in some cases it's a significant mental improvement over the enforced extroversion that we've had to endure for much of our lives.
I'd personally prefer slightly more human contact that we've had for the past couple years. But only slightly.
Our school system announced yesterday afternoon that they are dropping mask wearing (again) and also contact tracing (because it is too hard to stay on top of it in a timely fashion), and also any quarantining now. But they reserve the right to institute masks again if they have to close the schools down for absences.
They will now follow the same procedures for any other illness, which is please don't send your child to school when they have a fever.
We were surprised, but then we heard from a friend last night that they are facing another lawsuit and the rumor mill says this one has big money behind it. Rumor mill said the school board (which narrowly survived November's election) decided they can't waste funds fighting this.
Our school system announced yesterday afternoon that they are dropping mask wearing (again) and also contact tracing (because it is too hard to stay on top of it in a timely fashion), and also any quarantining now. But they reserve the right to institute masks again if they have to close the schools down for absences.
They will now follow the same procedures for any other illness, which is please don't send your child to school when they have a fever.
We were surprised, but then we heard from a friend last night that they are facing another lawsuit and the rumor mill says this one has big money behind it. Rumor mill said the school board (which narrowly survived November's election) decided they can't waste funds fighting this.
United States? Which state?
Our school system announced yesterday afternoon that they are dropping mask wearing (again) and also contact tracing (because it is too hard to stay on top of it in a timely fashion), and also any quarantining now. But they reserve the right to institute masks again if they have to close the schools down for absences.
They will now follow the same procedures for any other illness, which is please don't send your child to school when they have a fever.
Our school system announced yesterday afternoon that they are dropping mask wearing (again) and also contact tracing (because it is too hard to stay on top of it in a timely fashion), and also any quarantining now. But they reserve the right to institute masks again if they have to close the schools down for absences.
They will now follow the same procedures for any other illness, which is please don't send your child to school when they have a fever.
We were surprised, but then we heard from a friend last night that they are facing another lawsuit and the rumor mill says this one has big money behind it. Rumor mill said the school board (which narrowly survived November's election) decided they can't waste funds fighting this.
United States? Which state?
Yep, US - Ohio.
I did a little googling and it does look like there are some lawsuits in the news for nearby schools (in both the Akron and Toledo areas), but nothing published for my school district yet.
I would assume a positive covid test also counts for staying home - but wonder if people will bother to test if their child doesn't have a fever or more obvious symptoms. But the email just said "we strongly recommend you follow CDC guidelines for reporting and quarantine."
The state health director did give guidance this week that apparently said: “the quick spread of the Omicron variant and its rapid clinical course have made universal contact tracing, case investigation and exposure notification impractical.” So the district is 100% in the clear to do this. And fwiw - he's probably right? But it also feels like throwing in the towel.
This is also the fourth director our state has had since the start of the pandemic. Our first two quit because of death threats and harassment. Each subsequent director has loosened restrictions further. (I am not saying this is right or wrong - just something we've noticed.)
Our school system announced yesterday afternoon that they are dropping mask wearing (again) and also contact tracing (because it is too hard to stay on top of it in a timely fashion), and also any quarantining now. But they reserve the right to institute masks again if they have to close the schools down for absences.
They will now follow the same procedures for any other illness, which is please don't send your child to school when they have a fever.
We were surprised, but then we heard from a friend last night that they are facing another lawsuit and the rumor mill says this one has big money behind it. Rumor mill said the school board (which narrowly survived November's election) decided they can't waste funds fighting this.
United States? Which state?
Yep, US - Ohio.
I did a little googling and it does look like there are some lawsuits in the news for nearby schools (in both the Akron and Toledo areas), but nothing published for my school district yet.
I would assume a positive covid test also counts for staying home - but wonder if people will bother to test if their child doesn't have a fever or more obvious symptoms. But the email just said "we strongly recommend you follow CDC guidelines for reporting and quarantine."
The state health director did give guidance this week that apparently said: “the quick spread of the Omicron variant and its rapid clinical course have made universal contact tracing, case investigation and exposure notification impractical.” So the district is 100% in the clear to do this. And fwiw - he's probably right? But it also feels like throwing in the towel.
This is also the fourth director our state has had since the start of the pandemic. Our first two quit because of death threats and harassment. Each subsequent director has loosened restrictions further. (I am not saying this is right or wrong - just something we've noticed.)
Our school system announced yesterday afternoon that they are dropping mask wearing (again) and also contact tracing (because it is too hard to stay on top of it in a timely fashion), and also any quarantining now. But they reserve the right to institute masks again if they have to close the schools down for absences.
They will now follow the same procedures for any other illness, which is please don't send your child to school when they have a fever.
We were surprised, but then we heard from a friend last night that they are facing another lawsuit and the rumor mill says this one has big money behind it. Rumor mill said the school board (which narrowly survived November's election) decided they can't waste funds fighting this.
United States? Which state?
Yep, US - Ohio.
I did a little googling and it does look like there are some lawsuits in the news for nearby schools (in both the Akron and Toledo areas), but nothing published for my school district yet.
I would assume a positive covid test also counts for staying home - but wonder if people will bother to test if their child doesn't have a fever or more obvious symptoms. But the email just said "we strongly recommend you follow CDC guidelines for reporting and quarantine."
The state health director did give guidance this week that apparently said: “the quick spread of the Omicron variant and its rapid clinical course have made universal contact tracing, case investigation and exposure notification impractical.” So the district is 100% in the clear to do this. And fwiw - he's probably right? But it also feels like throwing in the towel.
This is also the fourth director our state has had since the start of the pandemic. Our first two quit because of death threats and harassment. Each subsequent director has loosened restrictions further. (I am not saying this is right or wrong - just something we've noticed.)
I am hoping this becomes a trend
Lol, from the reddit linked above: Patton Oswalt tweeted "When the polio vaccine dropped in 1955 people lined up to get it, & we were 2 years away from artificial satellites. Now in 2021 we carry external world-brains in our pockets and there's robots on Mars and idiots think the COVID vaccine is full of wizard poison."
It would be interesting to see what % of people 18+ have received no vaccine and also have not gotten Covid at this point (I.e. true Sars-cov-2 virgins). I feel like people are creating a fictional "unvaccinated" enemy at this point.
It would be interesting to see what % of people 18+ have received no vaccine and also have not gotten Covid at this point (I.e. true Sars-cov-2 virgins). I feel like people are creating a fictional "unvaccinated" enemy at this point.
^Oh, there are still plenty, but at the rate of infections in the US this past month, there won't be for long here. Other countries that had more zealous lockdowns likely have the majority fo the population uninfected (although, to be fair, most of the people in those countries are now vaccinated.)
Meanwhile, 2300 people died from COVID in the US yesterday. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like a lot of people dying in a single day.
^Oh, there are still plenty, but at the rate of infections in the US this past month, there won't be for long here. Other countries that had more zealous lockdowns likely have the majority fo the population uninfected (although, to be fair, most of the people in those countries are now vaccinated.)
Meanwhile, 2300 people died from COVID in the US yesterday. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like a lot of people dying in a single day.
In my "red" state the Mayo Clinic data has us at close to 90% of those 30+ having had at least one dose. If we assume even a small fraction of those 10% have come into contact with the virus (at this point I think I only know like 10 people who haven't gotten covid). We are looking at a fraction of that 10% and I live in Arkansas, lol probably one of the worst states when it comes to vaccination rates. My point is that the people with almost no protection against the virus at this point in the US are likely a tiny minority, but people like Patton Oswalt are tweeting like it's basically half of the US.
The U.S. has only 63% of the total population fully vaccinated (1 or 2 dose series, not including booster). There is a small portion of the population 5 and under who can’t get a vaccine. Still, that’s over a third of us who haven’t gotten vaccinated, most of them for no good reason. That’s absurdly high.
Fully vaccinated means 1 dose J&J or 2 dose mRNA. I’m sure more have been partially vaccinated, like my uncle who received a first dose back when he became eligible, but then fell prey to misinformation and refused to get his second dose, also convincing my parents and another sibling to not get vaccinated. I do wonder how many of those with one dose will never get fully vaccinated. Partial vaccination means very little against omicron. And yes, I think a third of Americans not fully vaccinated is still ridiculously high.
Technically I'm a one dose person. I got one dose in Oklahoma and one in Arkansas. Thus in both states I'm considered partially vaccinated. My kids will likely never get vaccinated, but they already had and recovered from Omicron. The data suggests that even getting one dose provides robust protection against severe disease. It may not provide as much protection against contracting the virus (although that doesn't seem to matter with Omicron), but most of the benefit against severe sickness is simply having your immune system primed for the virus and one dose does that.
^Oh, there are still plenty, but at the rate of infections in the US this past month, there won't be for long here. Other countries that had more zealous lockdowns likely have the majority fo the population uninfected (although, to be fair, most of the people in those countries are now vaccinated.)
Meanwhile, 2300 people died from COVID in the US yesterday. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like a lot of people dying in a single day.
Meanwhile, 2300 people died from COVID in the US yesterday. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like a lot of people dying in a single day.
^Oh, there are still plenty, but at the rate of infections in the US this past month, there won't be for long here. Other countries that had more zealous lockdowns likely have the majority fo the population uninfected (although, to be fair, most of the people in those countries are now vaccinated.)
Meanwhile, 2300 people died from COVID in the US yesterday. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like a lot of people dying in a single day.
2300 does seem like a lot, until you realize that about 8000 people/day died in 2019 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf), before the pandemic started. Apparently, total deaths for 2020 and 2021 were up by about 1200/day (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109281/covid-19-daily-deaths-compared-to-all-causes/), overall.
Holy cow. If that’s even remotely accurate that’s a 15% increase in death for two straight years.
Technically I'm a one dose person. I got one dose in Oklahoma and one in Arkansas. Thus in both states I'm considered partially vaccinated. My kids will likely never get vaccinated, but they already had and recovered from Omicron. The data suggests that even getting one dose provides robust protection against severe disease. It may not provide as much protection against contracting the virus (although that doesn't seem to matter with Omicron), but most of the benefit against severe sickness is simply having your immune system primed for the virus and one dose does that.
Curious why you would decide to not vaccinate your kids. Even if contracting Covid once does provide some protection, our understanding is that getting vaccinated improves resistance in the future. Are you worried about side effects from the vaccine?
It would be interesting to see what % of people 18+ have received no vaccine and also have not gotten Covid at this point (I.e. true Sars-cov-2 virgins). I feel like people are creating a fictional "unvaccinated" enemy at this point.
Read the thread - I've posted hospital statistics multiple times throughout.
75% of hospitalized people are unvaccinated. I suppose it's possible that those people have all lied about their vaccination status, but that seems unlikely.
I have no idea whether or not those people have had covid before, as the hospital systems I keep up with don't post that information.
It would be interesting to see what % of people 18+ have received no vaccine and also have not gotten Covid at this point (I.e. true Sars-cov-2 virgins). I feel like people are creating a fictional "unvaccinated" enemy at this point.
Read the thread - I've posted hospital statistics multiple times throughout.
75% of hospitalized people are unvaccinated. I suppose it's possible that those people have all lied about their vaccination status, but that seems unlikely.
I have no idea whether or not those people have had covid before, as the hospital systems I keep up with don't post that information.
I'm not denying that the unvaccinated are a major part of the hospitalization, my main point is they are a tiny fraction of the US population. We're talking about less than 15% of the population of those over 30. So really when we are whining about all the unvaccinated people we're whining about kids 20 and younger the group that has been largely untouched by this pandemic from a severe disease and death perspective.
I do find it interesting that the unvaccinated still make up 75% of all hospitalizations (including with and from covid) at this point though. If you think about it's kind of a crazy anomaly. Even if you look at the data for fully vaccinated 40+ you're likely looking at ~80% fully vaccinated. So, 80% of people 40+ in the US are fully vaccinated and ~75% of people 25+ are fully vaccinated and yet those ~25% still account for 75% of all hospitalizations? That's actually pretty impressive. Or am I reading that wrong and the 75% figure you're quoting is specifically for Covid related treatments? That would make way more sense, but I was under the impression they weren't really distinguishing between hospitalized from and with covid in almost all cases.
Holy cow. If that’s even remotely accurate that’s a 15% increase in death for two straight years.
Well Covid-19 deaths in 2021 were about 440,000 that's 1,205 per day right there. What's remarkable is how death rates spike in so many other things,
Suicide, murders, and drug overdose were all up 10-25% in the last couple of years. I guess it is understandable people react to stress. But what's crazy is things that you'd think would go down, in some cases went up. Take traffic fatalities they have been on a long slow decline for decades, despite more cars, and more miles. In 2019 there was about 34,000 deads, in 2021 they topped 42,000. This doesn't make sense, lots of people still worked from home, travel, tourism while increased from 2020, were still sharply below 2019 levels. Perhaps more door dash delivery or something resulted in more death,or more road rage??
This is exactly why people get so irritated with the unvaccinated. They are a minority of the population yet they are absolutely wrecking our medical system out of sheer stupidity/stubbornness at this point. The vaccines are very effective at keeping people out of the hospital. These statistics above illustrate that point. This is why medical professionals have been blue in the face begging people to get vaccinated.
It would be interesting to see what % of people 18+ have received no vaccine and also have not gotten Covid at this point (I.e. true Sars-cov-2 virgins). I feel like people are creating a fictional "unvaccinated" enemy at this point.
Read the thread - I've posted hospital statistics multiple times throughout.
75% of hospitalized people are unvaccinated. I suppose it's possible that those people have all lied about their vaccination status, but that seems unlikely.
I have no idea whether or not those people have had covid before, as the hospital systems I keep up with don't post that information.
I'm not denying that the unvaccinated are a major part of the hospitalization, my main point is they are a tiny fraction of the US population. We're talking about less than 15% of the population of those over 30. So really when we are whining about all the unvaccinated people we're whining about kids 20 and younger the group that has been largely untouched by this pandemic from a severe disease and death perspective.
I do find it interesting that the unvaccinated still make up 75% of all hospitalizations (including with and from covid) at this point though. If you think about it's kind of a crazy anomaly. Even if you look at the data for fully vaccinated 40+ you're likely looking at ~80% fully vaccinated. So, 80% of people 40+ in the US are fully vaccinated and ~75% of people 25+ are fully vaccinated and yet those ~25% still account for 75% of all hospitalizations? That's actually pretty impressive. Or am I reading that wrong and the 75% figure you're quoting is specifically for Covid related treatments? That would make way more sense, but I was under the impression they weren't really distinguishing between hospitalized from and with covid in almost all cases.
This is exactly why people get so irritated with the unvaccinated. They are a minority of the population yet they are absolutely wrecking our medical system out of sheer stupidity/stubbornness at this point. The vaccines are very effective at keeping people out of the hospital. These statistics above illustrate that point. This is why medical professionals have been blue in the face begging people to get vaccinated.
I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.
AAUGH. The problem is that the majority of the unvaccinated are NOT a few months away from being dead or having protection through "natural immunity". Some of them will die, yes. Many of them will just clog up the hospital system for weeks and then slowly recover or relapse because their bodies are weakened. They will have an increase of 40% in all cause mortality even after recovering from COVID in the following year, if I'm remembering correctly. The ones who do recover are at least 2-3 times more likely to get reinfected as those who have been vaccinated. And when they do get reinfected (I know MANY people who have had COVID multiple times at this point), they may go to the hospital again.
I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.
Health care system is overwhelmed and as a result:
- People are dying or have other adverse outcomes due to delayed "optional" treatment (elective surgeries)
- We're still losing more health care professionals from the profession than we can deal with/replace due to burnout, stress
- Society will be paying the increased cost of health care for COVID hospitalizations/long-term COVID for a long time
Yelling at the unvaccinated (*cough*, such as you with your kids.......) may not be productive, but when it's all you feel you've got to address the above, it's probably going to continue.
Why is it so binary? I feel like you're arguing that you don't need air bags because you have a seat belt and seat belts already substantially lower your risk. You can do both things, and also try to not drive recklessly.
Why is it so binary? I feel like you're arguing that you don't need air bags because you have a seat belt and seat belts already substantially lower your risk. You can do both things, and also try to not drive recklessly.
I'm not. I'm saying that for the vulnerable populations that chose not to get vaccinated most of them will have some protection. I'm not suggesting that an unvaccinated person that got Omicron shouldn't still get vaccinated. But if we work under the presumption that they won't given they haven't so far it's not as if they aren't more protected than they were before. That's literally all I'm saying.
If you want to keep screaming into social media at these unvaccinated 50 year olds that you don't know hoping maybe they'll see you calling them worthless pieces of sh*t and decide you are right and they should go get vaccinated tomorrow by all means continue to do so.
Technically I'm a one dose person. I got one dose in Oklahoma and one in Arkansas. Thus in both states I'm considered partially vaccinated. My kids will likely never get vaccinated, but they already had and recovered from Omicron. The data suggests that even getting one dose provides robust protection against severe disease. It may not provide as much protection against contracting the virus (although that doesn't seem to matter with Omicron), but most of the benefit against severe sickness is simply having your immune system primed for the virus and one dose does that.
Why is it so binary? I feel like you're arguing that you don't need air bags because you have a seat belt and seat belts already substantially lower your risk. You can do both things, and also try to not drive recklessly.
I'm not. I'm saying that for the vulnerable populations that chose not to get vaccinated most of them will have some protection. I'm not suggesting that an unvaccinated person that got Omicron shouldn't still get vaccinated. But if we work under the presumption that they won't given they haven't so far it's not as if they aren't more protected than they were before. That's literally all I'm saying.
If you want to keep screaming into social media at these unvaccinated 50 year olds that you don't know hoping maybe they'll see you calling them worthless pieces of sh*t and decide you are right and they should go get vaccinated tomorrow by all means continue to do so.Technically I'm a one dose person. I got one dose in Oklahoma and one in Arkansas. Thus in both states I'm considered partially vaccinated. My kids will likely never get vaccinated, but they already had and recovered from Omicron. The data suggests that even getting one dose provides robust protection against severe disease. It may not provide as much protection against contracting the virus (although that doesn't seem to matter with Omicron), but most of the benefit against severe sickness is simply having your immune system primed for the virus and one dose does that.
Why is it so binary? I feel like you're arguing that you don't need air bags because you have a seat belt and seat belts already substantially lower your risk. You can do both things, and also try to not drive recklessly.
I'm not. I'm saying that for the vulnerable populations that chose not to get vaccinated most of them will have some protection. I'm not suggesting that an unvaccinated person that got Omicron shouldn't still get vaccinated. But if we work under the presumption that they won't given they haven't so far it's not as if they aren't more protected than they were before. That's literally all I'm saying.
If you want to keep screaming into social media at these unvaccinated 50 year olds that you don't know hoping maybe they'll see you calling them worthless pieces of sh*t and decide you are right and they should go get vaccinated tomorrow by all means continue to do so.Technically I'm a one dose person. I got one dose in Oklahoma and one in Arkansas. Thus in both states I'm considered partially vaccinated. My kids will likely never get vaccinated, but they already had and recovered from Omicron. The data suggests that even getting one dose provides robust protection against severe disease. It may not provide as much protection against contracting the virus (although that doesn't seem to matter with Omicron), but most of the benefit against severe sickness is simply having your immune system primed for the virus and one dose does that.
Like I said earlier, I may change my mind, but even if I do I'll follow the European model of kids only getting one dose, so they'll never be considered "fully" vaccinated. I think we can have differing strategies depending on probability of severe disease, but I guess we live in a one size fits all society where healthy 6 year olds and bed-ridden 60 year olds should be treated identically. Should my daughter get a colonoscopy too? After all it's recommended for most 50 year olds.
If my 65 year old mother had had Omicron and recovered and wasn't vaccinated I would strongly urge her to get the vaccine. I just don't see it as a one size fits all disease, so I don't believe in a one size fits all strategy. If there is evidence that a future version of the vaccine stops all probability of contracting it, I would strongly reconsider my current stance though.
Holy cow. If that’s even remotely accurate that’s a 15% increase in death for two straight years.
Well Covid-19 deaths in 2021 were about 440,000 that's 1,205 per day right there. What's remarkable is how death rates spike in so many other things,
Suicide, murders, and drug overdose were all up 10-25% in the last couple of years. I guess it is understandable people react to stress. But what's crazy is things that you'd think would go down, in some cases went up. Take traffic fatalities they have been on a long slow decline for decades, despite more cars, and more miles. In 2019 there was about 34,000 deads, in 2021 they topped 42,000. This doesn't make sense, lots of people still worked from home, travel, tourism while increased from 2020, were still sharply below 2019 levels. Perhaps more door dash delivery or something resulted in more death,or more road rage??
From what I have gleaned on infection-based versus vaccine-based (MRNA) immunity:
During the pre-delta period, vaccine-based immunity was far superior.
During the delta wave, infection-based immunity was superior.
During the initial part of the omicron wave, infection-based immunity was similar to a 2-shot regimen. A 3-shot regimen was significantly better than infection.
Vaccine + infection was always better. If you get infected, you should still go get vaccinated for good protection against future variants.
I believe that in the studies I was looking at, the metrics were against symptomatic infection. Severity remains another important variable.
Remains TBD what sort of immunity omicron-based infections will give.
I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.
Health care system is overwhelmed and as a result:
- People are dying or have other adverse outcomes due to delayed "optional" treatment (elective surgeries)
- We're still losing more health care professionals from the profession than we can deal with/replace due to burnout, stress
- Society will be paying the increased cost of health care for COVID hospitalizations/long-term COVID for a long time
Yelling at the unvaccinated (*cough*, such as you with your kids.......) may not be productive, but when it's all you feel you've got to address the above, it's probably going to continue.
One of my kids just got eligible a few months ago and sorry I didn't trust a study with an N of 1000 kids. I wanted to wait for more data. The other isn't eligible, but I'm glad you feel (*cough) morally superior to me dude.
I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.
Health care system is overwhelmed and as a result:
- People are dying or have other adverse outcomes due to delayed "optional" treatment (elective surgeries)
- We're still losing more health care professionals from the profession than we can deal with/replace due to burnout, stress
- Society will be paying the increased cost of health care for COVID hospitalizations/long-term COVID for a long time
Yelling at the unvaccinated (*cough*, such as you with your kids.......) may not be productive, but when it's all you feel you've got to address the above, it's probably going to continue.
One of my kids just got eligible a few months ago and sorry I didn't trust a study with an N of 1000 kids. I wanted to wait for more data. The other isn't eligible, but I'm glad you feel (*cough) morally superior to me dude.
My point was that sometimes we see "other people" as doing something and don't recognize when we might fit into that category ourselves. The way you discuss it in this thread, it was not clear to me that you recognized you had a hand in contributing to the unvaccinated category in choosing not to get your eligible child vaccinated (and have made statements that indicate you will not fully vaccinate them), for whatever reason.
Most people that are getting myocarditis are getting it from the second dose. The probability of an unvaccinated child needing hospitalization from covid with delta was ~ 50 per 100k (it seems we can assume it is even lower with omicron). Now if you further stratify that to healthy children that number is probably in the order of 5 per 100k. There was a lot of evidence of myocarditis issues in 12-18 year olds, the study on 5-11 year olds included 1,000 kids. Sorry, if that didn't leave me with a lot of confidence in its safety profile at the time. Now some data is coming out and it appears to be safer in 5-11 than it was in 12-18, but given she now has recovered from it the probability of severe disease for her is probably in the order of 1 in 1 million+ at this point. Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind as new information becomes available though, but as of right now the vaccine provides extremely limited value to her, especially after what we are seeing with Omicron and there is plenty of evidence from prior strains that infection from the same strain twice is very unlikely.
All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.
As another parent of young children I also find it interesting that you talk only about the potential impact on your children's health and their likeliness to survive that, and never about the potential impact they may have on others.
Most people that are getting myocarditis are getting it from the second dose. The probability of an unvaccinated child needing hospitalization from covid with delta was ~ 50 per 100k (it seems we can assume it is even lower with omicron). Now if you further stratify that to healthy children that number is probably in the order of 5 per 100k. There was a lot of evidence of myocarditis issues in 12-18 year olds, the study on 5-11 year olds included 1,000 kids. Sorry, if that didn't leave me with a lot of confidence in its safety profile at the time. Now some data is coming out and it appears to be safer in 5-11 than it was in 12-18, but given she now has recovered from it the probability of severe disease for her is probably in the order of 1 in 1 million+ at this point. Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind as new information becomes available though, but as of right now the vaccine provides extremely limited value to her, especially after what we are seeing with Omicron and there is plenty of evidence from prior strains that infection from the same strain twice is very unlikely.
All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.
you say that you are simply following the data, but in your own writings it seems like you are making a great number of assumptions that appear tailored towards concluding you should not vaccinate your children.
As another parent of young children I also find it interesting that you talk only about the potential impact on your children's health and their likeliness to survive that, and never about the potential impact they may have on others.
All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.
My point was that sometimes we see "other people" as doing something and don't recognize when we might fit into that category ourselves. The way you discuss it in this thread, it was not clear to me that you recognized you had a hand in contributing to the unvaccinated category in choosing not to get your eligible child vaccinated (and have made statements that indicate you will not fully vaccinate them), for whatever reason.
I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.
Health care system is overwhelmed and as a result:
- People are dying or have other adverse outcomes due to delayed "optional" treatment (elective surgeries)
- We're still losing more health care professionals from the profession than we can deal with/replace due to burnout, stress
- Society will be paying the increased cost of health care for COVID hospitalizations/long-term COVID for a long time
Yelling at the unvaccinated (*cough*, such as you with your kids.......) may not be productive, but when it's all you feel you've got to address the above, it's probably going to continue.
One of my kids just got eligible a few months ago and sorry I didn't trust a study with an N of 1000 kids. I wanted to wait for more data. The other isn't eligible, but I'm glad you feel (*cough) morally superior to me dude.
My point was that sometimes we see "other people" as doing something and don't recognize when we might fit into that category ourselves. The way you discuss it in this thread, it was not clear to me that you recognized you had a hand in contributing to the unvaccinated category in choosing not to get your eligible child vaccinated (and have made statements that indicate you will not fully vaccinate them), for whatever reason.
I'm a statistician by education and training, so I can't help but follow the data. I'm sorry if you don't like that answer. The data overwhelmingly supported myself and my wife to get vaccinated, so I did so. The data is much more nuanced for young children. My 6 year old daughter is physically a lot closer to my 4 year old son (she weighs 45 pounds) than to an 11 year old boy. How many 5 (just turned 6) year old girls do you think were in Pfizer's 1,000 person sample?
Many European countries have looked at the data and found that for kids one dose provides 95%+ of the benefit with limited side effects, I've looked at the same data and come to a similar conclusion. Many doctors are agreeing that it's much more nuanced in young children. Here is a doctor I've followed closely discussing the FDA's EAU board discussion during the meeting to vote to approve the vaccine for 5-11 year olds. At ~ 2:40 he even says the FDA had apprehension about suggesting that healthy kids 5-11 that have cleared the virus should get vaccinated. So even the FDA's advisory board thinks it's likely to provide limited benefit to her, but they had to vote on a strategy for all 5-11 year olds, not the 4 separate groups they discussed the benefit/risk profile for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Od4LJCbBhw
Most people that are getting myocarditis are getting it from the second dose. The probability of an unvaccinated child needing hospitalization from covid with delta was ~ 50 per 100k (it seems we can assume it is even lower with omicron). Now if you further stratify that to healthy children that number is probably in the order of 5 per 100k. There was a lot of evidence of myocarditis issues in 12-18 year olds, the study on 5-11 year olds included 1,000 kids. Sorry, if that didn't leave me with a lot of confidence in its safety profile at the time. Now some data is coming out and it appears to be safer in 5-11 than it was in 12-18, but given she now has recovered from it the probability of severe disease for her is probably in the order of 1 in 1 million+ at this point. Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind as new information becomes available though, but as of right now the vaccine provides extremely limited value to her, especially after what we are seeing with Omicron and there is plenty of evidence from prior strains that infection from the same strain twice is very unlikely.
All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.
Genuinely curious... at what point does a girl have enough in common with an 11yo boy to make the full vaccination protocol feel like the right choice to you? If your girl was 8 would that be close enough to an 11 yo boy? 11? 12?
And/or if you get a single child's dose for her soon-ish? Is there some point at which you'd get the second dose (assuming the strain, situation, and recommendations don't change, which is a big assumption, of course).
What if her school requires full vaccination (presumably once it is no longer under an EUA)?
(If this seems overly probing or hostile, it definitely isn't. I'm truly trying to understand different views on this vax for kids.)
Genuinely curious... at what point does a girl have enough in common with an 11yo boy to make the full vaccination protocol feel like the right choice to you? If your girl was 8 would that be close enough to an 11 yo boy? 11? 12?
And/or if you get a single child's dose for her soon-ish? Is there some point at which you'd get the second dose (assuming the strain, situation, and recommendations don't change, which is a big assumption, of course).
What if her school requires full vaccination (presumably once it is no longer under an EUA)?
Holy cow. If that’s even remotely accurate that’s a 15% increase in death for two straight years.
Well Covid-19 deaths in 2021 were about 440,000 that's 1,205 per day right there. What's remarkable is how death rates spike in so many other things,
Suicide, murders, and drug overdose were all up 10-25% in the last couple of years. I guess it is understandable people react to stress. But what's crazy is things that you'd think would go down, in some cases went up. Take traffic fatalities they have been on a long slow decline for decades, despite more cars, and more miles. In 2019 there was about 34,000 deads, in 2021 they topped 42,000. This doesn't make sense, lots of people still worked from home, travel, tourism while increased from 2020, were still sharply below 2019 levels. Perhaps more door dash delivery or something resulted in more death,or more road rage??
I read someone who posited road deaths went up because traffic went down. Seems counterintuitive until you consider that speed is the major factor in how deadly a crash is. Crash in slow-moving traffic and you're probably not going to get hurt too badly. Crash when there's plenty of space to drive the speed limit (or higher) and you'll have a much worse time of it.
you say that you are simply following the data, but in your own writings it seems like you are making a great number of assumptions that appear tailored towards concluding you should not vaccinate your children.
As another parent of young children I also find it interesting that you talk only about the potential impact on your children's health and their likeliness to survive that, and never about the potential impact they may have on others.
For those not vaccinating based on having felt that you/your kids have already been infected with COVID-19, have you considered getting the test done to confirm your assumption? If you would share why or why not, that would be interesting to know.
For those not vaccinating based on having felt that you/your kids have already been infected with COVID-19, have you considered getting the test done to confirm your assumption? If you would share why or why not, that would be interesting to know.
One of my kids just got eligible a few months ago and sorry I didn't trust a study with an N of 1000 kids. I wanted to wait for more data. The other isn't eligible, but I'm glad you feel (*cough) morally superior to me dude.
For those not vaccinating based on having felt that you/your kids have already been infected with COVID-19, have you considered getting the test done to confirm your assumption? If you would share why or why not, that would be interesting to know.
Holy cow. If that’s even remotely accurate that’s a 15% increase in death for two straight years.
Well Covid-19 deaths in 2021 were about 440,000 that's 1,205 per day right there. What's remarkable is how death rates spike in so many other things,
Suicide, murders, and drug overdose were all up 10-25% in the last couple of years. I guess it is understandable people react to stress. But what's crazy is things that you'd think would go down, in some cases went up. Take traffic fatalities they have been on a long slow decline for decades, despite more cars, and more miles. In 2019 there was about 34,000 deads, in 2021 they topped 42,000. This doesn't make sense, lots of people still worked from home, travel, tourism while increased from 2020, were still sharply below 2019 levels. Perhaps more door dash delivery or something resulted in more death,or more road rage??
A great many people I knew (particularly retirees) drove a ton more than usual during the pandemic - particularly during our 'lockdowns'. At one point I pretty much stopped going for bike rides during the week because there was so much more traffic than usual along the quiet country roads that I take. It seemed like people were looking for something to do, and driving around in a car counts as something I guess.
Like I said earlier, I may change my mind, but even if I do I'll follow the European model of kids only getting one dose, so they'll never be considered "fully" vaccinated. I think we can have differing strategies depending on probability of severe disease, but I guess we live in a one size fits all society where healthy 6 year olds and bed-ridden 60 year olds should be treated identically. Should my daughter get a colonoscopy too? After all it's recommended for most 50 year olds.
If my 65 year old mother had had Omicron and recovered and wasn't vaccinated I would strongly urge her to get the vaccine. I just don't see it as a one size fits all disease, so I don't believe in a one size fits all strategy. If there is evidence that a future version of the vaccine stops all probability of contracting it, I would strongly reconsider my current stance though.
Most people that are getting myocarditis are getting it from the second dose. The probability of an unvaccinated child needing hospitalization from covid with delta was ~ 50 per 100k (it seems we can assume it is even lower with omicron). Now if you further stratify that to healthy children that number is probably in the order of 5 per 100k. There was a lot of evidence of myocarditis issues in 12-18 year olds, the study on 5-11 year olds included 1,000 kids. Sorry, if that didn't leave me with a lot of confidence in its safety profile at the time. Now some data is coming out and it appears to be safer in 5-11 than it was in 12-18, but given she now has recovered from it the probability of severe disease for her is probably in the order of 1 in 1 million+ at this point. Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind as new information becomes available though, but as of right now the vaccine provides extremely limited value to her, especially after what we are seeing with Omicron and there is plenty of evidence from prior strains that infection from the same strain twice is very unlikely.
All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.
you say that you are simply following the data, but in your own writings it seems like you are making a great number of assumptions that appear tailored towards concluding you should not vaccinate your children.
As another parent of young children I also find it interesting that you talk only about the potential impact on your children's health and their likeliness to survive that, and never about the potential impact they may have on others.
I just saw a study from the CDC where they surveyed people about whether or not they'd done any physical activity outside of work in the past month (like going for a bike ride, a run, a walk, playing golf, etc.). 26% of people surveyed said no. So we have significantly more adults that have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine than can even be bothered to go for a short walk around their neighborhood once a month and roughly as many adults that are fully vaccinated that can be bothered to do so. This is just to provide context about how effective I think the vaccination effort has been in comparison to something that everyone knows is important to health and is an order of magnitude easier to do.
I just saw a study from the CDC where they surveyed people about whether or not they'd done any physical activity outside of work in the past month (like going for a bike ride, a run, a walk, playing golf, etc.). 26% of people surveyed said no. So we have significantly more adults that have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine than can even be bothered to go for a short walk around their neighborhood once a month and roughly as many adults that are fully vaccinated that can be bothered to do so. This is just to provide context about how effective I think the vaccination effort has been in comparison to something that everyone knows is important to health and is an order of magnitude easier to do.
I just saw a study from the CDC where they surveyed people about whether or not they'd done any physical activity outside of work in the past month (like going for a bike ride, a run, a walk, playing golf, etc.). 26% of people surveyed said no. So we have significantly more adults that have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine than can even be bothered to go for a short walk around their neighborhood once a month and roughly as many adults that are fully vaccinated that can be bothered to do so. This is just to provide context about how effective I think the vaccination effort has been in comparison to something that everyone knows is important to health and is an order of magnitude easier to do.
Ok, I exercise every day, but I take issue with the fact that doing that is easier than spending ten minutes getting a shot. Getting vaccinated once is way easier than developing a healthy exercise habit (although once a month...is not really even trying). And of course these two things should not be mutually exclusive, either. Exercise is not a substitute for getting vaccinated or vice versa. You can be very fit and physically active and still get taken out by covid. But how many people even floss every day, for example? It's way harder to get people to do something healthy habitually than to do a one-time ten-minute thing.
I think that's a hard thing to draw many conclusions from. From my perspective - all of my friends (myself included) with kids are absolutely burnt out. On this thread it's clear that despite a large range of differing opinions about topics ranging from masking kids to quarantining them, everyone is exhausted. When you are exhausted, it's hard to do extra things like exercising. Whether clinical depression or just too much expected between work and home, things slip.
Also - just because someone isn't exercising outside, doesn't mean they aren't exercising. It's winter here. Not only only is it cold, but my area had the 4th snowiest January in the time they've been recording it. That's not particularly conducive to getting outside and exercising. We live on a pond and we taught my son to skate for the first time on it this month, but then a massive snowstorm came through and made that impossible to continue. With the snow piles you can't easily run/walk. etc.
Finally, as @jrhampt notes, a shot is far easier and quicker than exercising. My 3rd was 5 minutes from my house, near shopping, and I didn't have to wait at all to get it.
I think that's a hard thing to draw many conclusions from. From my perspective - all of my friends (myself included) with kids are absolutely burnt out. On this thread it's clear that despite a large range of differing opinions about topics ranging from masking kids to quarantining them, everyone is exhausted. When you are exhausted, it's hard to do extra things like exercising. Whether clinical depression or just too much expected between work and home, things slip.
Also - just because someone isn't exercising outside, doesn't mean they aren't exercising. It's winter here. Not only only is it cold, but my area had the 4th snowiest January in the time they've been recording it. That's not particularly conducive to getting outside and exercising. We live on a pond and we taught my son to skate for the first time on it this month, but then a massive snowstorm came through and made that impossible to continue. With the snow piles you can't easily run/walk. etc.
Finally, as @jrhampt notes, a shot is far easier and quicker than exercising. My 3rd was 5 minutes from my house, near shopping, and I didn't have to wait at all to get it.
The rate was highest in the American South, so I don't think snow had much to do with it. Going Ice skating would count as a physical activity.
As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter. Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine. There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people. The latter would be a much more difficult decision. But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else. Period.
exercising inside would still count. It was "outside of work" meaning outside of what you do at work have you done any physical activity in the previous month. So going for a walk on a treadmill or a spin on your peloton would also count.
I get your point, but I don't think that's unique to any specific month. The #s might fluctuate month to month, but I'd be willing to bet if you did that longitudinally you'd always end up between 20-28% of people that are completely physically inactive in any given month. I have trouble even fathoming it honestly, My fitbit said I was physically active for 352 days last year. I don't expect everyone to be similar to me, but come on, is asking for 12 days/year really too much? Similarly, is asking for people to go get a vaccine too much? I guess for some people it really is.
As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter. Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine. There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people. The latter would be a much more difficult decision. But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else. Period.
That black and white, eh?
This is where humans are bad at statistics. First off, almost the entirety side effects of the vaccines are recoverable in young kids (and it's still a toss up between which is worse, covid or vaccines in even the most mildly affected populations). Second off, they are extremely rare- it's hardly a guarantee that your daughter or mine would get sick. It's not like you're guaranteeing it, it's just an extremely small possibility. She is in more danger ever time you put her in a car. I'll grant that there is something to be said for weighting bad outcomes from medical intervention more severely, but the probability that she will be exposed to covid makes even this argument less strong.
I was heistant on the vaccine for myself... until hundreds of thousands of people got it and statistically very few bad outcomes came of it, miraculously lower than could have been expected from any vaccine. Same for the kids- we have test populations at an astronomical scale and we are seeing incredible results. Anything we do will have some risk. Unfortunately some folks are going to just not respond as desired, which happens in medical interventions. Every single thing the medical community does has a chance at a bad outcome, and the Covid vaccienes are one of the safest.
So would you trade thousands of lives for your daughter to have a very small chance at having recoverable bad side effects? In the context of our apathetic society, I can see that there isn't much of a draw to do so, but if we were a tight knit community I'd bet it would have appeal.
As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter. Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine. There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people. The latter would be a much more difficult decision. But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else. Period.
That black and white, eh?
This is where humans are bad at statistics. First off, almost the entirety side effects of the vaccines are recoverable in young kids (and it's still a toss up between which is worse, covid or vaccines in even the most mildly affected populations). Second off, they are extremely rare- it's hardly a guarantee that your daughter or mine would get sick. It's not like you're guaranteeing it, it's just an extremely small possibility. She is in more danger ever time you put her in a car. I'll grant that there is something to be said for weighting bad outcomes from medical intervention more severely, but the probability that she will be exposed to covid makes even this argument less strong.
I was heistant on the vaccine for myself... until hundreds of thousands of people got it and statistically very few bad outcomes came of it, miraculously lower than could have been expected from any vaccine. Same for the kids- we have test populations at an astronomical scale and we are seeing incredible results. Anything we do will have some risk. Unfortunately some folks are going to just not respond as desired, which happens in medical interventions. Every single thing the medical community does has a chance at a bad outcome, and the Covid vaccienes are one of the safest.
So would you trade thousands of lives for your daughter to have a very small chance at having recoverable bad side effects? In the context of our apathetic society, I can see that there isn't much of a draw to do so, but if we were a tight knit community I'd bet it would have appeal.
My kids and I tested positive via a antibody test in November of 2020. We really had no idea we had it until after the fact. And let me tell you it was a massive weight off my shoulders. Almost a gift as we went through what I thought would be this terrible ordeal and it passed me by without my knowledge. So it really took away the unknown of what would happen to the kids going into that winter.
Kids are vaccinated, we figured there was a good chance it would help keep them in school versus if they were exposed and not vaxed they might be sent home type thing.
I am about to stop wearing my mask personally. I mean it "went viral" and it sure looks like it burned itself out. I am thinking maybe in March we might get a bit of a lull.
Oh and vaccinating kids, I have zero problem with you choosing to vaccinate yourself and waiting on your kids. Most parents put their kids health above their own. (including me) So yeah if there is a tiny risk to my kid or some potential possible small hypothetical risk to some senior citizen somewhere. I choose my kid 10/10.
I read that link. A 17 year old girl died after having symptomatic covid in August and five weeks after having covid vaccinations in September. The risk of death in the year after having covid is elevated, and is higher than the risk of death after vaccination, so there is a good chance that this sad death came from the covid infection not the covid vaccination. It might also have happened in any case: sudden death from previously undiagnosed heart conditions in teenagers is a known thing. I don't think in that case jumping to the conclusion that the vaccine was the problem is either true or helpful.https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/seventeen-year-old-washington-female-dies-from-heart-attack-weeks-after-receiving-second-pfizer-vaccination/As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter. Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine. There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people. The latter would be a much more difficult decision. But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else. Period.
That black and white, eh?
This is where humans are bad at statistics. First off, almost the entirety side effects of the vaccines are recoverable in young kids (and it's still a toss up between which is worse, covid or vaccines in even the most mildly affected populations). Second off, they are extremely rare- it's hardly a guarantee that your daughter or mine would get sick. It's not like you're guaranteeing it, it's just an extremely small possibility. She is in more danger ever time you put her in a car. I'll grant that there is something to be said for weighting bad outcomes from medical intervention more severely, but the probability that she will be exposed to covid makes even this argument less strong.
I was heistant on the vaccine for myself... until hundreds of thousands of people got it and statistically very few bad outcomes came of it, miraculously lower than could have been expected from any vaccine. Same for the kids- we have test populations at an astronomical scale and we are seeing incredible results. Anything we do will have some risk. Unfortunately some folks are going to just not respond as desired, which happens in medical interventions. Every single thing the medical community does has a chance at a bad outcome, and the Covid vaccienes are one of the safest.
So would you trade thousands of lives for your daughter to have a very small chance at having recoverable bad side effects? In the context of our apathetic society, I can see that there isn't much of a draw to do so, but if we were a tight knit community I'd bet it would have appeal.
What do you say to those parents? You thank them for their sacrifice because statistically, society is better off if all kids get vaccinated? You had a healthy teenager before the vaccine (by all accounts, I didn't see anything that mentioned pre-existing conditions). That's a tough pill. It's one thing if an adult makes the decision for themselves but when you're doing it on behalf of someone else who is healthy and the risks to a bad case of covid are already low, I think that's the fear - even if the odds are low from vaccine complications.
-pro vax adult who is glad he doesn't have kids to have to make these types of choices
Listened to an NPR story in the car last night that I think changed my view on masks for kids. Pre-vaccination, pre-omicron, I was very much in favor of masking kids in school. But now that everyone has the opportunity to be vaccinated and the cloth masks are questionably effective for preventing the spread of Omicron, I think it's time to take them off. Our kids school stopped mandating them in October and despite that we've only had a 2% infection rate, most of which were asymptomatic cases which originated from a parent in the home testing positive first. It's been two years and I think it's time to stop trying to stop this pandemic on the backs of the kids. It just isn't right anymore.I'm still pro mask in school, because here - well, it's really no big deal. Nobody seems to care. Most of the kids have moved from cloth over to KN95 or surgical masks. They are worn indoors, and outside is optional, but most kids wear them outside too.
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1075842341/growing-calls-to-take-masks-off-children-in-school (https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1075842341/growing-calls-to-take-masks-off-children-in-school)
I just saw a study from the CDC where they surveyed people about whether or not they'd done any physical activity outside of work in the past month (like going for a bike ride, a run, a walk, playing golf, etc.). 26% of people surveyed said no. So we have significantly more adults that have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine than can even be bothered to go for a short walk around their neighborhood once a month and roughly as many adults that are fully vaccinated that can be bothered to do so. This is just to provide context about how effective I think the vaccination effort has been in comparison to something that everyone knows is important to health and is an order of magnitude easier to do.
I read that too, and I wonder if it's bad now or has always been bad. I can see it though. Back in the day, when I actually worked at the office, I would at least have a longer walk from the office to the bathroom or water cooler. I had meetings in the building a block away. 2-3 times a week I'd clear my head with a walk at lunch, then eat my food at my desk.
These days, I work in my bedroom. The walk to the bathroom is 10 steps, maybe 15. I don't walk to meetings. I don't even stand up during meetings. With kid dropoff and pickup schedules, it's just a lot more work to squeeze in a lunch walk compared to "before times" because there's always something to be done in the house.
(I still exercise every day before work, plus I walk the dog 4 days a week...but it's less than I was getting before COVID.)
If I mis-represented the contents of that link or if that link was withholding vital information on the causality in that case, it was not my intent at all and I apologize. If you know that link doesn't paint the full story or that the vaccine was not a problem in that case, please share your evidence and how you came to that conclusion while avoiding the ecological fallacy. I'd be happy to remove it if that's the case.I read that link. A 17 year old girl died after having symptomatic covid in August and five weeks after having covid vaccinations in September. The risk of death in the year after having covid is elevated, and is higher than the risk of death after vaccination, so there is a good chance that this sad death came from the covid infection not the covid vaccination. It might also have happened in any case: sudden death from previously undiagnosed heart conditions in teenagers is a known thing. I don't think in that case jumping to the conclusion that the vaccine was the problem is either true or helpful.https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/seventeen-year-old-washington-female-dies-from-heart-attack-weeks-after-receiving-second-pfizer-vaccination/As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter. Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine. There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people. The latter would be a much more difficult decision. But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else. Period.
That black and white, eh?
This is where humans are bad at statistics. First off, almost the entirety side effects of the vaccines are recoverable in young kids (and it's still a toss up between which is worse, covid or vaccines in even the most mildly affected populations). Second off, they are extremely rare- it's hardly a guarantee that your daughter or mine would get sick. It's not like you're guaranteeing it, it's just an extremely small possibility. She is in more danger ever time you put her in a car. I'll grant that there is something to be said for weighting bad outcomes from medical intervention more severely, but the probability that she will be exposed to covid makes even this argument less strong.
I was heistant on the vaccine for myself... until hundreds of thousands of people got it and statistically very few bad outcomes came of it, miraculously lower than could have been expected from any vaccine. Same for the kids- we have test populations at an astronomical scale and we are seeing incredible results. Anything we do will have some risk. Unfortunately some folks are going to just not respond as desired, which happens in medical interventions. Every single thing the medical community does has a chance at a bad outcome, and the Covid vaccienes are one of the safest.
So would you trade thousands of lives for your daughter to have a very small chance at having recoverable bad side effects? In the context of our apathetic society, I can see that there isn't much of a draw to do so, but if we were a tight knit community I'd bet it would have appeal.
What do you say to those parents? You thank them for their sacrifice because statistically, society is better off if all kids get vaccinated? You had a healthy teenager before the vaccine (by all accounts, I didn't see anything that mentioned pre-existing conditions). That's a tough pill. It's one thing if an adult makes the decision for themselves but when you're doing it on behalf of someone else who is healthy and the risks to a bad case of covid are already low, I think that's the fear - even if the odds are low from vaccine complications.
-pro vax adult who is glad he doesn't have kids to have to make these types of choices
What do you say to those parents? You thank them for their sacrifice because statistically, society is better off if all kids get vaccinated? You had a healthy teenager before the vaccine (by all accounts, I didn't see anything that mentioned pre-existing conditions). That's a tough pill. It's one thing if an adult makes the decision for themselves but when you're doing it on behalf of someone else who is healthy and the risks to a bad case of covid are already low, I think that's the fear - even if the odds are low from vaccine complications.
-pro vax adult who is glad he doesn't have kids to have to make these types of choices
Ugh ugh ugh. I hate to argue on the opposite side of what I firmly believe is important (get vaccinated!) but the ethicist in me rears it's head to say:
There is widely considered an ethical (and at times legal) distinction between action and inaction. Standard hypothetical: The trolley will run over five people unless it is turned. Then it will run over just one person. Do you turn the trolley wheel? This plays out in questions such as assisted suicide/active euthanasia/withdrawing caregiving (tube feeding)/never providing the feeding tube in the first place.
While I agree 1000x times on risk of vaccine v. COVID, regrettably the weighting the miniscule bad outcomes from medical intervention (v. larger from inaction) can be significant for some.
Ugh ugh ugh. I hate to argue on the opposite side of what I firmly believe is important (get vaccinated!) but the ethicist in me rears it's head to say:
There is widely considered an ethical (and at times legal) distinction between action and inaction. Standard hypothetical: The trolley will run over five people unless it is turned. Then it will run over just one person. Do you turn the trolley wheel? This plays out in questions such as assisted suicide/active euthanasia/withdrawing caregiving (tube feeding)/never providing the feeding tube in the first place.
While I agree 1000x times on risk of vaccine v. COVID, regrettably the weighting the miniscule bad outcomes from medical intervention (v. larger from inaction) can be significant for some.
I might have miscommunicated, I feel that you are elaborating on points that I agree with. I completely agree on the established assumption of the difference between action and inaction, and is a primary reason I am against mandates. What I was trying to emphasize is that many people are really poor judges of the frequency and severity of the bad outcomes of the vaccine. And it is nearly impossible to tell who would respond poorly before hand as it appears random. I think this is something that could/should be solved with information and not forced medical intervention, but do think that it's significant. The article I just responded to paints a picture of a 17 year old girl dying from a vaccine, when the link has not been established, and it doesn't write 50,000 articles for all of the non-events of people getting the vaccine. Personal choices are only as good as the information they are made from.
What do you say to those parents? You thank them for their sacrifice because statistically, society is better off if all kids get vaccinated? You had a healthy teenager before the vaccine (by all accounts, I didn't see anything that mentioned pre-existing conditions). That's a tough pill. It's one thing if an adult makes the decision for themselves but when you're doing it on behalf of someone else who is healthy and the risks to a bad case of covid are already low, I think that's the fear - even if the odds are low from vaccine complications.
-pro vax adult who is glad he doesn't have kids to have to make these types of choices
I don't have the time or energy to go into the issues with lay interpretation of Vaers reporting. In many ways it is doing more harm than good. Random medical events happen all the time- so when we prescribe a new medical procedure en mass, it's going to correlate with some convincing cases of cause & effect when in fact it is just coincidence. Articles like that are not proof of anything other than that we have vaccinated 200,000,000+ people in the US. If we were to offer foot massages to 200,000,000 people, there would be a certain number of people who would randomly develop a foot condition a month later and naturally want to correrlate it to the massages. The only real data to look at is to see if the cases of vaccine events are statistically higher than background cases pre-covid. None of these types of outrage/fear articles do that.
So here's the thing with medical interventions and decisions epidemiologists have to undertake. EVERY DECISION has consequences. Every medical intervention has some chance at a bad outcome. Every. Single. One. That chance varies greatly, but with most of them we have a pretty good idea of the chances of those consequences. So if a medical professional were to prescribe certain painkillers for an operation, there is a chance that you will react badly to it. And yet they prescribe them and you take them, because the net calculus shows that in general people are better taking them than not. There is no way to know beforehand if random individuals will respond poorly other than that we know that some do. For those unlucky few it is truly a disheartening event, and I would be hard pressed to offer solice as I would to any parent who lost a child. It's not a decision to take lightly, and if there were evidence if it being dangerous for teens I would absolutely be for allowing it to be a personal decision (I'm actually for it being one now- I don't think mandates help anything). But what I don't like is for that personal decision being made on poor understanding of statistics and epidemiology, which the media seems hell bent on washing over us.
As far as the vaccine goes, it still appears that the outcome is better for high school aged students to take it, although with Omicron (>99% of cases in the US), it doesn't do as much to prevent transmission as with previous variants. Interestingly, being vaccinated also appears to be less robust than having Covid itself against Omicron, so if a student already had Covid, I wouldn't even have them take the vaccine.
If I mis-represented the contents of that link or if that link was withholding vital information on the causality in that case, it was not my intent at all and I apologize. If you know that link doesn't paint the full story or that the vaccine was not a problem in that case, please share your evidence and how you came to that conclusion while avoiding the ecological fallacy. I'd be happy to remove it if that's the case.https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/seventeen-year-old-washington-female-dies-from-heart-attack-weeks-after-receiving-second-pfizer-vaccination/I read that link. A 17 year old girl died after having symptomatic covid in August and five weeks after having covid vaccinations in September. The risk of death in the year after having covid is elevated, and is higher than the risk of death after vaccination, so there is a good chance that this sad death came from the covid infection not the covid vaccination. It might also have happened in any case: sudden death from previously undiagnosed heart conditions in teenagers is a known thing. I don't think in that case jumping to the conclusion that the vaccine was the problem is either true or helpful.
What do you say to those parents? You thank them for their sacrifice because statistically, society is better off if all kids get vaccinated? You had a healthy teenager before the vaccine (by all accounts, I didn't see anything that mentioned pre-existing conditions). That's a tough pill. It's one thing if an adult makes the decision for themselves but when you're doing it on behalf of someone else who is healthy and the risks to a bad case of covid are already low, I think that's the fear - even if the odds are low from vaccine complications.
-pro vax adult who is glad he doesn't have kids to have to make these types of choices
I'm not trying to jump to any conclusion other than to say that for a non-zero proportion of parents, there is a nuance when it comes to vaccinating their children and articles like that can give them pause. Even if I don't share that perspective and would ultimately make different decisions if I was in that scenario, if I can see it as a logical way of thinking I can sympathize with, isn't that better than screaming "Misinformation! Anti-vaxxer!" or whatever epithet is common at the time? I haven't heard any parent with an evil glint in their eye say that they're not vaccinating their child because they want to be nefarious in society and wreak havoc. It is likely coming from a place of precaution, information-seeking, or at worst apathy but not malicious intent. Adults and children do not always share the same physiological outcomes when presented with the same stimulus and the data on children is newer.
If I mis-represented the contents of that link or if that link was withholding vital information on the causality in that case, it was not my intent at all and I apologize. If you know that link doesn't paint the full story or that the vaccine was not a problem in that case, please share your evidence and how you came to that conclusion while avoiding the ecological fallacy. I'd be happy to remove it if that's the case.https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/seventeen-year-old-washington-female-dies-from-heart-attack-weeks-after-receiving-second-pfizer-vaccination/I read that link. A 17 year old girl died after having symptomatic covid in August and five weeks after having covid vaccinations in September. The risk of death in the year after having covid is elevated, and is higher than the risk of death after vaccination, so there is a good chance that this sad death came from the covid infection not the covid vaccination. It might also have happened in any case: sudden death from previously undiagnosed heart conditions in teenagers is a known thing. I don't think in that case jumping to the conclusion that the vaccine was the problem is either true or helpful.
What do you say to those parents? You thank them for their sacrifice because statistically, society is better off if all kids get vaccinated? You had a healthy teenager before the vaccine (by all accounts, I didn't see anything that mentioned pre-existing conditions). That's a tough pill. It's one thing if an adult makes the decision for themselves but when you're doing it on behalf of someone else who is healthy and the risks to a bad case of covid are already low, I think that's the fear - even if the odds are low from vaccine complications.
-pro vax adult who is glad he doesn't have kids to have to make these types of choices
I'm not trying to jump to any conclusion other than to say that for a non-zero proportion of parents, there is a nuance when it comes to vaccinating their children and articles like that can give them pause. Even if I don't share that perspective and would ultimately make different decisions if I was in that scenario, if I can see it as a logical way of thinking I can sympathize with, isn't that better than screaming "Misinformation! Anti-vaxxer!" or whatever epithet is common at the time? I haven't heard any parent with an evil glint in their eye say that they're not vaccinating their child because they want to be nefarious in society and wreak havoc. It is likely coming from a place of precaution, information-seeking, or at worst apathy but not malicious intent. Adults and children do not always share the same physiological outcomes when presented with the same stimulus and the data on children is newer.
From my reading of the above, you did misrepresent the contents of the link. Reading what you wrote above without following through to the link, one might reasonable assume the story is about a teenager whose death had been medically determined to have been caused by the vaccine. This is not true; there is no evidence presented that the vaccine led to her death. The story even reports that she had Covid this summer, and we've seen an an all-causes increase in mortality following Covid infection, so she may have actually died of Covid complications.
As to the article itself-- it's poorly-researched fear-mongering, but I don't have the energy to make that argument right now.
If I mis-represented the contents of that link or if that link was withholding vital information on the causality in that case, it was not my intent at all and I apologize. If you know that link doesn't paint the full story or that the vaccine was not a problem in that case, please share your evidence and how you came to that conclusion while avoiding the ecological fallacy. I'd be happy to remove it if that's the case.
I'm not trying to jump to any conclusion other than to say that for a non-zero proportion of parents, there is a nuance when it comes to vaccinating their children and articles like that can give them pause.
Yes. Myocarditis is a well-known complication of even mild COVID infection at this point. The risk is higher with COVID infection than with vaccination.
Why would anyone express a formed opinion without following through to the link*? That seems pre-emptive. You call it fear-mongering but I didn't leave the article with that impression. Now maybe I thought "Man, there is a lot of death right now" and "COVID stinks!" To me, it was just a collection of statements and numbers and the occasional quote (some of which were very pro-vaccine!). Even the comments at the bottom were a wide-ranging mix of various statement and opinions - and you go in expecting comments to be somewhat of a cesspool. I didn't feel there was enough information about some of these cases to warrant much of an opinion in relation to vaccines and their safety. The article wasn't saying to disregard the statistics we have but then again I'm not a conspiracy person so I will generally trust what the medical experts pass along - and even if I was, I'm not a medical doctor. I only linked to the article in the first place in response that some people are black and white while others have shades of gray in their decision-making process surrounding covid. Whether right or wrong for statistical, ethical, emotional, whatever category of reasons - some parents want more information or have cautions regarding the vaccine for their children. Stories like the one I linked are real and an article will likely never share the whole story. Yes, the odds are the vaccine did not cause that one person to die but we don't know the whole story and for some parents, they want more.If I mis-represented the contents of that link or if that link was withholding vital information on the causality in that case, it was not my intent at all and I apologize. If you know that link doesn't paint the full story or that the vaccine was not a problem in that case, please share your evidence and how you came to that conclusion while avoiding the ecological fallacy. I'd be happy to remove it if that's the case.What do you say to those parents? You thank them for their sacrifice because statistically, society is better off if all kids get vaccinated? You had a healthy teenager before the vaccine (by all accounts, I didn't see anything that mentioned pre-existing conditions). That's a tough pill. It's one thing if an adult makes the decision for themselves but when you're doing it on behalf of someone else who is healthy and the risks to a bad case of covid are already low, I think that's the fear - even if the odds are low from vaccine complications.I read that link. A 17 year old girl died after having symptomatic covid in August and five weeks after having covid vaccinations in September. The risk of death in the year after having covid is elevated, and is higher than the risk of death after vaccination, so there is a good chance that this sad death came from the covid infection not the covid vaccination. It might also have happened in any case: sudden death from previously undiagnosed heart conditions in teenagers is a known thing. I don't think in that case jumping to the conclusion that the vaccine was the problem is either true or helpful.
-pro vax adult who is glad he doesn't have kids to have to make these types of choices
I'm not trying to jump to any conclusion other than to say that for a non-zero proportion of parents, there is a nuance when it comes to vaccinating their children and articles like that can give them pause. Even if I don't share that perspective and would ultimately make different decisions if I was in that scenario, if I can see it as a logical way of thinking I can sympathize with, isn't that better than screaming "Misinformation! Anti-vaxxer!" or whatever epithet is common at the time? I haven't heard any parent with an evil glint in their eye say that they're not vaccinating their child because they want to be nefarious in society and wreak havoc. It is likely coming from a place of precaution, information-seeking, or at worst apathy but not malicious intent. Adults and children do not always share the same physiological outcomes when presented with the same stimulus and the data on children is newer.
From my reading of the above, you did misrepresent the contents of the link. Reading what you wrote above without following through to the link, one might reasonably assume the story is about a teenager whose death had been medically determined to have been caused by the vaccine. This is not true; there is no evidence presented that the vaccine led to her death. The story even reports that she had Covid this summer, and we've seen an an all-causes increase in mortality following Covid infection, so she may have actually died of Covid complications.
As to the article itself-- it's poorly-researched fear-mongering, but I don't have the energy to make that argument right now.
Why would anyone express a formed opinion without following through to the link*? That seems pre-emptive.
I grant that looking at just the URL without clicking does look like it has an unhelpful agenda, I just noticed that now actually. Hmm, yeah that is troublesome. I don't think I misrepresented anything nor was I anti-vaccine at all but will take it down because that URL is admittedly garbage and misleading.
This charming little article suggests (early days yet, so nothing certain but definitely indicators present) that having covid-19 could increase the chances of getting Parkinsons disease, Type 1 diabetes and/or Guillain–Barré Syndrome.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220127-could-covid-19-still-be-affecting-us-in-decades-to-come?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
I'm not throwing my masks away just yet, then.
This charming little article suggests (early days yet, so nothing certain but definitely indicators present) that having covid-19 could increase the chances of getting Parkinsons disease, Type 1 diabetes and/or Guillain–Barré Syndrome.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220127-could-covid-19-still-be-affecting-us-in-decades-to-come?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
I'm not throwing my masks away just yet, then.
This charming little article suggests (early days yet, so nothing certain but definitely indicators present) that having covid-19 could increase the chances of getting Parkinsons disease, Type 1 diabetes and/or Guillain–Barré Syndrome.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220127-could-covid-19-still-be-affecting-us-in-decades-to-come?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
I'm not throwing my masks away just yet, then.
One good thing I have heard lately is that the increased prevalence of long COVID has finally shone a research light on long term impacts of infections that historically have affected women more than men and therefore are ignored by big pharma and health providers.
But yeah, long COVID has been my big deterrent, if I am dead, I am dead, but I sure as hell am going to do all I reasonably can to avoid getting long COVID complications which means not getting it in the first place.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
Is this a legit side effect? My spouse has worried about this with our just turned 5 year old, who got COVID over the summer but I attributed it to being a kid. He has a large vocabulary but sometimes struggles to find words.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
Is this a legit side effect? My spouse has worried about this with our just turned 5 year old, who got COVID over the summer but I attributed it to being a kid. He has a large vocabulary but sometimes struggles to find words.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
Is this a legit side effect? My spouse has worried about this with our just turned 5 year old, who got COVID over the summer but I attributed it to being a kid. He has a large vocabulary but sometimes struggles to find words.
Yes. The brain fog side effect is definitely real and can be shocking to see. My parents had covid back in September and my Dad still has issues with this, although they've improved from the first couple of months when they couldn't figure out how to use their phones etc.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
Is this a legit side effect? My spouse has worried about this with our just turned 5 year old, who got COVID over the summer but I attributed it to being a kid. He has a large vocabulary but sometimes struggles to find words.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
Is this a legit side effect? My spouse has worried about this with our just turned 5 year old, who got COVID over the summer but I attributed it to being a kid. He has a large vocabulary but sometimes struggles to find words.
Yes. The brain fog side effect is definitely real and can be shocking to see. My parents had covid back in September and my Dad still has issues with this, although they've improved from the first couple of months when they couldn't figure out how to use their phones etc.
My husband (mid-40s) is having some new problems with short-term memory since having COVID a few weeks ago. It's a concern, as Alzheimer's runs in his family.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
Is this a legit side effect? My spouse has worried about this with our just turned 5 year old, who got COVID over the summer but I attributed it to being a kid. He has a large vocabulary but sometimes struggles to find words.
Yes. The brain fog side effect is definitely real and can be shocking to see. My parents had covid back in September and my Dad still has issues with this, although they've improved from the first couple of months when they couldn't figure out how to use their phones etc.
My husband (mid-40s) is having some new problems with short-term memory since having COVID a few weeks ago. It's a concern, as Alzheimer's runs in his family.
Another manifestation I'm having is almost like stroke effect: when writing by hand (not typing), when I mean to write '1,' I often write 'T'...even if I try not to. I have to concentrate hard to get it correct. It's very weird, esp considering how mild my case was.
I really hope this is temporary b/c my job is editing.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
Is this a legit side effect? My spouse has worried about this with our just turned 5 year old, who got COVID over the summer but I attributed it to being a kid. He has a large vocabulary but sometimes struggles to find words.
Yes. The brain fog side effect is definitely real and can be shocking to see. My parents had covid back in September and my Dad still has issues with this, although they've improved from the first couple of months when they couldn't figure out how to use their phones etc.
My husband (mid-40s) is having some new problems with short-term memory since having COVID a few weeks ago. It's a concern, as Alzheimer's runs in his family.
Another manifestation I'm having is almost like stroke effect: when writing by hand (not typing), when I mean to write '1,' I often write 'T'...even if I try not to. I have to concentrate hard to get it correct. It's very weird, esp considering how mild my case was.
I really hope this is temporary b/c my job is editing.
Now I'm concerned. I'm also an editor. I wonder if I should have one of the other managers spot-check my work to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Hmm. It's been 6 months since infection for my son, so hopefully the brain fog, if he has one, goes away.
It can't be that rare, it's fourth on an NHS list of long covid symptoms -Hmm. It's been 6 months since infection for my son, so hopefully the brain fog, if he has one, goes away.
I would have to think brain fog is a real but pretty rare side effect. My wife and I had it, as well as my brother in early December. We all had very minor cases and definitely no brain fog. I have not heard this concern from any of my close friends who have gotten it either.
Surprisingly, the only time I felt like I had brain fog was around this time last year after my first vaccine dose. By the time I got the second dose it had gone away though.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
Is this a legit side effect? My spouse has worried about this with our just turned 5 year old, who got COVID over the summer but I attributed it to being a kid. He has a large vocabulary but sometimes struggles to find words.
Yes. The brain fog side effect is definitely real and can be shocking to see. My parents had covid back in September and my Dad still has issues with this, although they've improved from the first couple of months when they couldn't figure out how to use their phones etc.
My husband (mid-40s) is having some new problems with short-term memory since having COVID a few weeks ago. It's a concern, as Alzheimer's runs in his family.
Another manifestation I'm having is almost like stroke effect: when writing by hand (not typing), when I mean to write '1,' I often write 'T'...even if I try not to. I have to concentrate hard to get it correct. It's very weird, esp considering how mild my case was.
I really hope this is temporary b/c my job is editing.
Now I'm concerned. I'm also an editor. I wonder if I should have one of the other managers spot-check my work to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Probably not a bad idea if you've recently had COVID. My writing rarely needs editing (according to most of my clients), but they caught a lot of errors those first few months.
I have noticed some weird memory issues since I got sick though. I don't feel foggy or tired, but I'm having regular episodes of absolutely blanking out on words I'm trying to say/remember. That's a bit disturbing.
Is this a legit side effect? My spouse has worried about this with our just turned 5 year old, who got COVID over the summer but I attributed it to being a kid. He has a large vocabulary but sometimes struggles to find words.
Yes. The brain fog side effect is definitely real and can be shocking to see. My parents had covid back in September and my Dad still has issues with this, although they've improved from the first couple of months when they couldn't figure out how to use their phones etc.
My husband (mid-40s) is having some new problems with short-term memory since having COVID a few weeks ago. It's a concern, as Alzheimer's runs in his family.
Another manifestation I'm having is almost like stroke effect: when writing by hand (not typing), when I mean to write '1,' I often write 'T'...even if I try not to. I have to concentrate hard to get it correct. It's very weird, esp considering how mild my case was.
I really hope this is temporary b/c my job is editing.
Now I'm concerned. I'm also an editor. I wonder if I should have one of the other managers spot-check my work to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Probably not a bad idea if you've recently had COVID. My writing rarely needs editing (according to most of my clients), but they caught a lot of errors those first few months.
Shit. I'm about to turn in a 120-page monograph. Though I had trouble working on it as fast as usual, I didn't feel more hare-brained than usual. Now I'm wondering if I'd even notice my own errors. And there's no one to check a paper this long; it's too specialized a topic and too much of a time imposition. Bleh.
Important to keep in mind that experiences like forgetting words are common with and without Covid, and you may just notice those experiences more if you are paying attention due to worries about Covid effects. This is NOT me saying it isn’t real in some people, but it is also undeniable that some people will notice cognitive issues more and attribute it to Covid even if it is not directly from it.
Important to keep in mind that experiences like forgetting words are common with and without Covid, and you may just notice those experiences more if you are paying attention due to worries about Covid effects. This is NOT me saying it isn’t real in some people, but it is also undeniable that some people will notice cognitive issues more and attribute it to Covid even if it is not directly from it.
New York mask mandate is over today. 85% (18+) are triple vaxxed, 95% (18+) have at least one dose.
https://www.lawandtheworkplace.com/2022/02/governor-hochul-lifts-new-york-state-indoor-mask-mandate/New York mask mandate is over today. 85% (18+) are triple vaxxed, 95% (18+) have at least one dose.
Outdoor? Indoor? Public transportation?
Important to keep in mind that experiences like forgetting words are common with and without Covid, and you may just notice those experiences more if you are paying attention due to worries about Covid effects. This is NOT me saying it isn’t real in some people, but it is also undeniable that some people will notice cognitive issues more and attribute it to Covid even if it is not directly from it.
This is what i'm wondering. Working from home for an extended period of time can do a number on your communicative skills as can stress, which I'm sure we've all had our fair share of during this pandemic, especially those of us with kiddos. I've noticed since I've been working from home I find myself in conversations drawing a blank on words that just happen to be at the tip of my tongue. I've noticed this both before and after getting covid, but I could totally see how you notice it more after getting covid when people say brain fog is a common symptom of long covid.
Important to keep in mind that experiences like forgetting words are common with and without Covid, and you may just notice those experiences more if you are paying attention due to worries about Covid effects. This is NOT me saying it isn’t real in some people, but it is also undeniable that some people will notice cognitive issues more and attribute it to Covid even if it is not directly from it.
This is what i'm wondering. Working from home for an extended period of time can do a number on your communicative skills as can stress, which I'm sure we've all had our fair share of during this pandemic, especially those of us with kiddos. I've noticed since I've been working from home I find myself in conversations drawing a blank on words that just happen to be at the tip of my tongue. I've noticed this both before and after getting covid, but I could totally see how you notice it more after getting covid when people say brain fog is a common symptom of long covid.
Selective noticing could definitely be occurring, but whatever is occurring isn't being affected in my case by Covid related isolation. I've worked from home with little socialization for more than 10 years, and our lifestyle barely changed at all during the pandemic. Same job, as well, so I definitely do notice times when I'm struggling more with my regular job tasks.
Google search trends for loss of smell follow the peaks of covid, but brain fog does not. To me this is a small piece of evidence that they might not be as related as some would like to believe. However, brain fog has been heavily searched since the beginning of 2022 which may suggest it is only Omicron related, that it now just has a name, or that people are really concerned about it because they are reading about it but it existed just as much before.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=brain%20fog
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=loss%20of%20smell
People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition.
In this study, we found a relatively high frequency of cognitive impairment several months after patients contracted COVID-19. Impairments in executive functioning, processing speed, category fluency, memory encoding, and recall were predominant among hospitalized patients. The relative sparing of memory recognition in the context of impaired encoding and recall suggests an executive pattern. This pattern is consistent with early reports describing a dysexecutive syndrome after COVID-19 and has considerable implications for occupational, psychological, and functional outcomes. It is well known that certain populations (eg, older adults) may be particularly susceptible to cognitive impairment after critical illness5; however, in the relatively young cohort in the present study, a substantial proportion exhibited cognitive dysfunction several months after recovering from COVID-19.
A significant proportion of individuals experience persistent fatigue and/or cognitive impairment following resolution of acute COVID-19. The frequency and debilitating nature of the foregoing symptoms provides the impetus to characterize the underlying neurobiological substrates and how to best treat these phenomena.]A significant proportion of individuals experience persistent fatigue and/or cognitive impairment following resolution of acute COVID-19. The frequency and debilitating nature of the foregoing symptoms provides the impetus to characterize the underlying neurobiological substrates and how to best treat these phenomena.
Covid-19 isn't the only virus that causes lingering cognitive effects. John Barry recounts a famous example of this phenomenon in his excellent book, The Great Influenza. Apparently, after Woodrow Wilson came down with the flu in 1919, while in France negotiating terms to the end of WWI, his position regarding how Germany should be treated after the war totally, and inexplicably, changed 180 degrees. After 'recovering' from the flu and returning to the negotiating table, Wilson caved to all of France's demands that Germany be treated harshly, probably leading to the rise of Adolf Hitler and, eventually, WWII.
Finally, Washington has a mask mandate drop date of 3/21 for indoor spaces & schoolsLet’s hope things continue to improve between now and then
Finally, Washington has a mask mandate drop date of 3/21 for indoor spaces & schoolsLet’s hope things continue to improve between now and then
Yes, if trends hold I'll be ok with it. My son has already basically stated that he'll want to keep wearing his mask, but I want to see what the case rate is by then. Regardless, I wouldn't ever make him not wear a mask if he wants to.
Personally, I'm not sure what I'll do in public locations if this truly is when we're endemic. If case rates are low, and my vaccinations are up to date, masking in the grocery store or whatever doesn't seem that necessary. On the other hand, masking up in a store also isn't really that big of a deal to me, so even if it just keeps me from getting a cold from time to time, is it worth it? Probably is if it's cold/flu/covid season. Almost certainly when in a crowded space like a plane.
Yes, if trends hold I'll be ok with it. My son has already basically stated that he'll want to keep wearing his mask, but I want to see what the case rate is by then. Regardless, I wouldn't ever make him not wear a mask if he wants to.
Personally, I'm not sure what I'll do in public locations if this truly is when we're endemic. If case rates are low, and my vaccinations are up to date, masking in the grocery store or whatever doesn't seem that necessary. On the other hand, masking up in a store also isn't really that big of a deal to me, so even if it just keeps me from getting a cold from time to time, is it worth it? Probably is if it's cold/flu/covid season. Almost certainly when in a crowded space like a plane.
One of the outcomes I hope we achieve from this pandemic is more social acceptance of individuals wearing masks in public. It's very common in many countries, yet not so much in the US. I've been verbally harassed a number of times for wearing a mask, often by self-proclaimed "freedom defenders". They seem to want the freedom to not wear a mask, but also to tell me I shouldn't be wearing one either, I guess.
Yes, if trends hold I'll be ok with it. My son has already basically stated that he'll want to keep wearing his mask, but I want to see what the case rate is by then. Regardless, I wouldn't ever make him not wear a mask if he wants to.
Personally, I'm not sure what I'll do in public locations if this truly is when we're endemic. If case rates are low, and my vaccinations are up to date, masking in the grocery store or whatever doesn't seem that necessary. On the other hand, masking up in a store also isn't really that big of a deal to me, so even if it just keeps me from getting a cold from time to time, is it worth it? Probably is if it's cold/flu/covid season. Almost certainly when in a crowded space like a plane.
One of the outcomes I hope we achieve from this pandemic is more social acceptance of individuals wearing masks in public. It's very common in many countries, yet not so much in the US. I've been verbally harassed a number of times for wearing a mask, often by self-proclaimed "freedom defenders". They seem to want the freedom to not wear a mask, but also to tell me I shouldn't be wearing one either, I guess.
Yes, if trends hold I'll be ok with it. My son has already basically stated that he'll want to keep wearing his mask, but I want to see what the case rate is by then. Regardless, I wouldn't ever make him not wear a mask if he wants to.
Personally, I'm not sure what I'll do in public locations if this truly is when we're endemic. If case rates are low, and my vaccinations are up to date, masking in the grocery store or whatever doesn't seem that necessary. On the other hand, masking up in a store also isn't really that big of a deal to me, so even if it just keeps me from getting a cold from time to time, is it worth it? Probably is if it's cold/flu/covid season. Almost certainly when in a crowded space like a plane.
One of the outcomes I hope we achieve from this pandemic is more social acceptance of individuals wearing masks in public. It's very common in many countries, yet not so much in the US. I've been verbally harassed a number of times for wearing a mask, often by self-proclaimed "freedom defenders". They seem to want the freedom to not wear a mask, but also to tell me I shouldn't be wearing one either, I guess.
Yes, if trends hold I'll be ok with it. My son has already basically stated that he'll want to keep wearing his mask, but I want to see what the case rate is by then. Regardless, I wouldn't ever make him not wear a mask if he wants to.
Personally, I'm not sure what I'll do in public locations if this truly is when we're endemic. If case rates are low, and my vaccinations are up to date, masking in the grocery store or whatever doesn't seem that necessary. On the other hand, masking up in a store also isn't really that big of a deal to me, so even if it just keeps me from getting a cold from time to time, is it worth it? Probably is if it's cold/flu/covid season. Almost certainly when in a crowded space like a plane.
One of the outcomes I hope we achieve from this pandemic is more social acceptance of individuals wearing masks in public. It's very common in many countries, yet not so much in the US. I've been verbally harassed a number of times for wearing a mask, often by self-proclaimed "freedom defenders". They seem to want the freedom to not wear a mask, but also to tell me I shouldn't be wearing one either, I guess.
Were you verbally harassed before the pandemic on this issue? It isn't clear to me from the way you worded it.
I suspect that mask wearing will have more social acceptance among certain groups than before, but less with others.
I live in the south and I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I've been yelled at several times for not wearing a mask. Usually it's outside when I'm biking or outside at parks with my kids. But, it's happened a few times at restaurants when I'm seated at the table and not immediately eating or drinking.
I live in the south and I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I've been yelled at several times for not wearing a mask. Usually it's outside when I'm biking or outside at parks with my kids. But, it's happened a few times at restaurants when I'm seated at the table and not immediately eating or drinking.
I live in the south and I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I've been yelled at several times for not wearing a mask. Usually it's outside when I'm biking or outside at parks with my kids. But, it's happened a few times at restaurants when I'm seated at the table and not immediately eating or drinking.
In the South?!? I live in the Bay Area and I do all those things regularly and have never even been looked at askance.
I live in the south and I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I've been yelled at several times for not wearing a mask. Usually it's outside when I'm biking or outside at parks with my kids. But, it's happened a few times at restaurants when I'm seated at the table and not immediately eating or drinking.
I'm shocked that you are somewhere in the South where people wear masks :) When divying out travel for my team, they always talk about how no one wears masks in GA, TN, or SC and it wigs them out! (my team is based in DC so most people wear masks in the day to day.) Are you in a college town or something?
I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I have had a person tell my son I was abusing him for having him wear a mask (we were outside at a playground), and I've had people say things like "you know you don't need to wear that" or "don't let them control you!" and in the most egregious case a man got very close to me and breathed in my face.
I just had a person come to the house to quote a project for me, and they told me they weren't interested when I asked them to wear a mask.
As a person with a suppressed immune system we are trying very hard to balance "normal" life for my kids while also keeping me protected.
I occasionally wore a mask in public before the pandemic and no one ever said anything about it - so it is wild to me that I get comments about it now.
I live in the south and I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I've been yelled at several times for not wearing a mask. Usually it's outside when I'm biking or outside at parks with my kids. But, it's happened a few times at restaurants when I'm seated at the table and not immediately eating or drinking.
I'm shocked that you are somewhere in the South where people wear masks :) When divying out travel for my team, they always talk about how no one wears masks in GA, TN, or SC and it wigs them out! (my team is based in DC so most people wear masks in the day to day.) Are you in a college town or something?
I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I have had a person tell my son I was abusing him for having him wear a mask (we were outside at a playground), and I've had people say things like "you know you don't need to wear that" or "don't let them control you!" and in the most egregious case a man got very close to me and breathed in my face.
I just had a person come to the house to quote a project for me, and they told me they weren't interested when I asked them to wear a mask.
As a person with a suppressed immune system we are trying very hard to balance "normal" life for my kids while also keeping me protected.
I occasionally wore a mask in public before the pandemic and no one ever said anything about it - so it is wild to me that I get comments about it now.
I occasionally wore a mask in public before the pandemic and no one ever said anything about it - so it is wild to me that I get comments about it now.
We (I live in Norway) cut all covid restrictions one week ago and mask wearing indoors in public space fell from like 90% to 10% very quickly. It wasn't a mandate-mandate before that, but you were supposed to if you couldnt keep reasonable distance but there were no sanctions if you didn't wear one. When covid hit in march 2020 hardly anyone wore a face mask. A handful wore them in shops etc but it looked really bizzarre back then. I don't quite remember when we bought our first package of face masks but it was quite late in 2020 when covid re-hit after being pretty much gone the entire late spring and summer of 2020. Eventually there was a mandate in public space indoors and on public transport but never at work, never in schools and never outdoors. It worked out pretty ok in the end.
Pre-pandemic mask wearing in public space was 0% bar the occational tourist from Asia.
I think Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden and Denmark) and the UK are the first western coutries cut cut all coivd regulations. Im not into the details elesewhere, but we now have literality none in place and its pretty much treated like any other disease. At work the drill is that if you get it you wfh for a few days, not beacuse anyone is worried about getting it (everyone assume everyone will sooner or later) but they are tad worried about too many being sick at the same time and my line of work can be done just fine from home, after all we've done it for months earlier. I gpt it last week and now people barely inform collegues if they get it, folks just stay home a few days.
Unless some actual dangerous variant comes along down the road this is how it will be going forward. Noone, and I mean noone care about death numbers anymore (they are high by our standards but low vs internationally) and the hospitals decribe it like a somewhat harsh flu season no so no drama there at the moment.
I went to a store a week ago in Finland […] Talk about feeling uncomfortable. I finished fast and told my sister when I went out that now they tought I was one of those antivaxxers.
My employer sent out an email today (prompted by the latest update to CDC guidance) that we're no longer required to wear masks on site. People were almost running to share the news with one another.
That was pretty much the last relic of the pandemic in my world, so unless (until?) things get bad around here again I'm going to say that we're as back to normal as we can be.
My employer sent out an email today (prompted by the latest update to CDC guidance) that we're no longer required to wear masks on site. People were almost running to share the news with one another.
That was pretty much the last relic of the pandemic in my world, so unless (until?) things get bad around here again I'm going to say that we're as back to normal as we can be.
We are still 3 weeks away. Our governor (WA) has always been in lock step with CDC guidelines, but for whatever reason he is sticking to his guns and holding out to lift the mandate on Mar 21 .
Covid is still a thing?!? It's absolutely horrible what's going on in Ukraine but on the bright side it took all the media's focus away from covid and put it on something that actually matters.
There's much more worse shit going on in the world. It's time to forget about corona virus.
Covid is still a thing?!? It's absolutely horrible what's going on in Ukraine but on the bright side it took all the media's focus away from covid and put it on something that actually matters.
There's much more worse shit going on in the world. It's time to forget about corona virus.
It is possible to worry and respond to two crises at the same time. Not pleasant or preferred, but possible.
For me, as I have young children at home and work in a LTC setting, it is still something that very much "matters".
Probably to the point where any side effects from the vaccine are worse than a case of covid would be.
I live in the south and I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I've been yelled at several times for not wearing a mask. Usually it's outside when I'm biking or outside at parks with my kids. But, it's happened a few times at restaurants when I'm seated at the table and not immediately eating or drinking.
I'm shocked that you are somewhere in the South where people wear masks :) When divying out travel for my team, they always talk about how no one wears masks in GA, TN, or SC and it wigs them out! (my team is based in DC so most people wear masks in the day to day.) Are you in a college town or something?
I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I have had a person tell my son I was abusing him for having him wear a mask (we were outside at a playground), and I've had people say things like "you know you don't need to wear that" or "don't let them control you!" and in the most egregious case a man got very close to me and breathed in my face.
I just had a person come to the house to quote a project for me, and they told me they weren't interested when I asked them to wear a mask.
As a person with a suppressed immune system we are trying very hard to balance "normal" life for my kids while also keeping me protected.
I occasionally wore a mask in public before the pandemic and no one ever said anything about it - so it is wild to me that I get comments about it now.
I live in the south and I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I've been yelled at several times for not wearing a mask. Usually it's outside when I'm biking or outside at parks with my kids. But, it's happened a few times at restaurants when I'm seated at the table and not immediately eating or drinking.
I'm shocked that you are somewhere in the South where people wear masks :) When divying out travel for my team, they always talk about how no one wears masks in GA, TN, or SC and it wigs them out! (my team is based in DC so most people wear masks in the day to day.) Are you in a college town or something?
I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I have had a person tell my son I was abusing him for having him wear a mask (we were outside at a playground), and I've had people say things like "you know you don't need to wear that" or "don't let them control you!" and in the most egregious case a man got very close to me and breathed in my face.
I just had a person come to the house to quote a project for me, and they told me they weren't interested when I asked them to wear a mask.
As a person with a suppressed immune system we are trying very hard to balance "normal" life for my kids while also keeping me protected.
I occasionally wore a mask in public before the pandemic and no one ever said anything about it - so it is wild to me that I get comments about it now.
I also consider masking kids at an outdoor playground to be mildly abusive
Why?
Honestly, I have not noticed that the kids seem to mind. It’s still cold here and I wear a mask outside because it’s nice to breathe warmer air.
Why?
Honestly, I have not noticed that the kids seem to mind. It’s still cold here and I wear a mask outside because it’s nice to breathe warmer air.
My son doesn't like to wear his mask when running around at a park because it's harder for him to breathe/catch his breath. I'd think that any proper fitting mask would have a similar issue. Certainly I wouldn't want to be doing any strenuous exercise while wearing an N95 or KN95. There just isn't enough airflow.
I live in the south and I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I've been yelled at several times for not wearing a mask. Usually it's outside when I'm biking or outside at parks with my kids. But, it's happened a few times at restaurants when I'm seated at the table and not immediately eating or drinking.
I'm shocked that you are somewhere in the South where people wear masks :) When divying out travel for my team, they always talk about how no one wears masks in GA, TN, or SC and it wigs them out! (my team is based in DC so most people wear masks in the day to day.) Are you in a college town or something?
I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I have had a person tell my son I was abusing him for having him wear a mask (we were outside at a playground), and I've had people say things like "you know you don't need to wear that" or "don't let them control you!" and in the most egregious case a man got very close to me and breathed in my face.
I just had a person come to the house to quote a project for me, and they told me they weren't interested when I asked them to wear a mask.
As a person with a suppressed immune system we are trying very hard to balance "normal" life for my kids while also keeping me protected.
I occasionally wore a mask in public before the pandemic and no one ever said anything about it - so it is wild to me that I get comments about it now.
I also consider masking kids at an outdoor playground to be mildly abusive
Covid is still a thing?!? It's absolutely horrible what's going on in Ukraine but on the bright side it took all the media's focus away from covid and put it on something that actually matters.
There's much more worse shit going on in the world. It's time to forget about corona virus.
Covid is still a thing?!? It's absolutely horrible what's going on in Ukraine but on the bright side it took all the media's focus away from covid and put it on something that actually matters.
There's much more worse shit going on in the world. It's time to forget about corona virus.
I'd love to forget! Great plan! If you could tell me how to forget that every day at 5pm my skin starts feeling like there is liquid fire under it, and to forget about the fact that people I know are dead, I'd love to know how to do that. Thanks!
I live in the south and I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I've been yelled at several times for not wearing a mask. Usually it's outside when I'm biking or outside at parks with my kids. But, it's happened a few times at restaurants when I'm seated at the table and not immediately eating or drinking.
I'm shocked that you are somewhere in the South where people wear masks :) When divying out travel for my team, they always talk about how no one wears masks in GA, TN, or SC and it wigs them out! (my team is based in DC so most people wear masks in the day to day.) Are you in a college town or something?
I've never been yelled at for wearing a mask, but I have had a person tell my son I was abusing him for having him wear a mask (we were outside at a playground), and I've had people say things like "you know you don't need to wear that" or "don't let them control you!" and in the most egregious case a man got very close to me and breathed in my face.
I just had a person come to the house to quote a project for me, and they told me they weren't interested when I asked them to wear a mask.
As a person with a suppressed immune system we are trying very hard to balance "normal" life for my kids while also keeping me protected.
I occasionally wore a mask in public before the pandemic and no one ever said anything about it - so it is wild to me that I get comments about it now.
I also consider masking kids at an outdoor playground to be mildly abusive
That's cool.
I wonder if you would also consider it mildly abusive if I kept my children indoors for the last two years and didn't let them go to playgrounds?
I ended up in the hospital a few years ago when the rest of my family caught the flu. So during this pandemic we are masking so that we add a layer of protection for me and so my children can go to the playground.
Our school dropped the mask mandate two weeks ago and my son had tested positive for COVID by last Monday night. He was still positive this morning when we tested him. Due to my history I have not been able to hug or be in the same room with my child for a week. It sucks. It would suck more if I ended up on a ventilator.
Balancing this is very hard and every day I weigh giving my children a normal life with trying to make sure I don't traumatize them by ending up the hospital knowing that THEY got me sick (they are my main vector as I don't really leave my house).
Local and statewide hospitalizations have dropped 80% in the last couple weeks. We're still a bit above the thresholds I set for myself back in the summer, but with omicron and middling vaccination rates, we maybe not get back to those very low levels. Until we get another local spike, we're going back to normal life (while still taking low-effort/low-cost precautions).
SO is tempted to keep her students masking forever though. Those germ factories have gotten us sick several times a year until covid and it's been nice to not deal with that.
Local and statewide hospitalizations have dropped 80% in the last couple weeks. We're still a bit above the thresholds I set for myself back in the summer, but with omicron and middling vaccination rates, we maybe not get back to those very low levels. Until we get another local spike, we're going back to normal life (while still taking low-effort/low-cost precautions).
SO is tempted to keep her students masking forever though. Those germ factories have gotten us sick several times a year until covid and it's been nice to not deal with that.
Yes, freedom from colds and other ailments has been a silver lining to all of this. We just had a cold go through the house after some in-home guests graced us with it (2 of 4 got it; I mostly fought it off), and it definitely helped remind us that even a very mild illness can be quite unpleasant.
I do think that the attitude that 'most people have had it' is still quite inaccurate when it comes to covid. Sure, I'll buy in to the argument that the official ~80M cases in the USA is an undercount, but while 1 in 4 might be too low, anything between 1/4 and 1/3 jives just fine with the circles I travel in. Sure, it's anecdotal, but so is everyone's experience that's not relying upon official statistics. I suppose we could all have had asymptomatic cases that didn't infect anyone else, or only gave other people asymptomatic cases. Starts to strain credulity, though.
Local and statewide hospitalizations have dropped 80% in the last couple weeks. We're still a bit above the thresholds I set for myself back in the summer, but with omicron and middling vaccination rates, we maybe not get back to those very low levels. Until we get another local spike, we're going back to normal life (while still taking low-effort/low-cost precautions).
SO is tempted to keep her students masking forever though. Those germ factories have gotten us sick several times a year until covid and it's been nice to not deal with that.
Yes, freedom from colds and other ailments has been a silver lining to all of this. We just had a cold go through the house after some in-home guests graced us with it (2 of 4 got it; I mostly fought it off), and it definitely helped remind us that even a very mild illness can be quite unpleasant.
I do think that the attitude that 'most people have had it' is still quite inaccurate when it comes to covid. Sure, I'll buy in to the argument that the official ~80M cases in the USA is an undercount, but while 1 in 4 might be too low, anything between 1/4 and 1/3 jives just fine with the circles I travel in. Sure, it's anecdotal, but so is everyone's experience that's not relying upon official statistics. I suppose we could all have had asymptomatic cases that didn't infect anyone else, or only gave other people asymptomatic cases. Starts to strain credulity, though.
My opinion is that far more Americans have had Covid than is known or reported, but I do think it also varies by age group. As mentioned, much of the older population does tend to be more cautious and more isolated. On the other hand, I suspect the number of younger folks who've had it is FAR greater than reported. I helped clear college athletes to resume training during the first year or so of the pandemic. Almost all of these athletes who tested positive, quarantined, then had to be cleared after their ten day isolation, had absolutely no idea they had Covid. They were simply exposed to one of the few athletes that did have symptoms. As a result, most of the team would have to be tested and ended up being positive. So at least in the younger population, I'd venture to guess we are much closer to 90% infection rate than even 50% at some point over the previous two years.
I'm curious to see how it's going with the employers mandating a return to the office? or are they still allowing Work From Home, or a hybrid of both?
Early in the pandemic there were lots of people declaring they'd never return to the office but now that it's happening, are they really quitting and changing jobs for that reason?
I'm aware of some big companies here saying employees need to be in the office by May or June, but that they are allowing supervisors some leeway in determining what's best for individuals, if possible. To me that seems reasonable.
Local and statewide hospitalizations have dropped 80% in the last couple weeks. We're still a bit above the thresholds I set for myself back in the summer, but with omicron and middling vaccination rates, we maybe not get back to those very low levels. Until we get another local spike, we're going back to normal life (while still taking low-effort/low-cost precautions).
SO is tempted to keep her students masking forever though. Those germ factories have gotten us sick several times a year until covid and it's been nice to not deal with that.
Yes, freedom from colds and other ailments has been a silver lining to all of this. We just had a cold go through the house after some in-home guests graced us with it (2 of 4 got it; I mostly fought it off), and it definitely helped remind us that even a very mild illness can be quite unpleasant.
I do think that the attitude that 'most people have had it' is still quite inaccurate when it comes to covid. Sure, I'll buy in to the argument that the official ~80M cases in the USA is an undercount, but while 1 in 4 might be too low, anything between 1/4 and 1/3 jives just fine with the circles I travel in. Sure, it's anecdotal, but so is everyone's experience that's not relying upon official statistics. I suppose we could all have had asymptomatic cases that didn't infect anyone else, or only gave other people asymptomatic cases. Starts to strain credulity, though.
Curious how old you are and how old your circle is. Before December I would have said the exact same thing. After January Basically everyone I know had had it. People I know the most tend to be mid 30s and most have young children as well. I'd say of my group that I talk to regularly (probably 40-50) about 75%+ have had it at this point. I don't know anyone that isn't vaccinated that's older than 12. But older people like my parents that are retired tend to be being a bit more careful. My mom hasn't had it yet. My dad and his wife just got it in early January though. So, I could see if the people you hang out with are 50+ and are knowledge workers that the amount of people that have had it in your circle could be low.
You probably just had Covid
Curious how old you are and how old your circle is. Before December I would have said the exact same thing. After January Basically everyone I know had had it. People I know the most tend to be mid 30s and most have young children as well. I'd say of my group that I talk to regularly (probably 40-50) about 75%+ have had it at this point. I don't know anyone that isn't vaccinated that's older than 12. But older people like my parents that are retired tend to be being a bit more careful. My mom hasn't had it yet. My dad and his wife just got it in early January though. So, I could see if the people you hang out with are 50+ and are knowledge workers that the amount of people that have had it in your circle could be low.
Local and statewide hospitalizations have dropped 80% in the last couple weeks. We're still a bit above the thresholds I set for myself back in the summer, but with omicron and middling vaccination rates, we maybe not get back to those very low levels. Until we get another local spike, we're going back to normal life (while still taking low-effort/low-cost precautions).
SO is tempted to keep her students masking forever though. Those germ factories have gotten us sick several times a year until covid and it's been nice to not deal with that.
Yes, freedom from colds and other ailments has been a silver lining to all of this. We just had a cold go through the house after some in-home guests graced us with it (2 of 4 got it; I mostly fought it off), and it definitely helped remind us that even a very mild illness can be quite unpleasant.
I do think that the attitude that 'most people have had it' is still quite inaccurate when it comes to covid. Sure, I'll buy in to the argument that the official ~80M cases in the USA is an undercount, but while 1 in 4 might be too low, anything between 1/4 and 1/3 jives just fine with the circles I travel in. Sure, it's anecdotal, but so is everyone's experience that's not relying upon official statistics. I suppose we could all have had asymptomatic cases that didn't infect anyone else, or only gave other people asymptomatic cases. Starts to strain credulity, though.
Curious how old you are and how old your circle is. Before December I would have said the exact same thing. After January Basically everyone I know had had it. People I know the most tend to be mid 30s and most have young children as well. I'd say of my group that I talk to regularly (probably 40-50) about 75%+ have had it at this point. I don't know anyone that isn't vaccinated that's older than 12. But older people like my parents that are retired tend to be being a bit more careful. My mom hasn't had it yet. My dad and his wife just got it in early January though. So, I could see if the people you hang out with are 50+ and are knowledge workers that the amount of people that have had it in your circle could be low.
And some colds really are just colds... My work has required me to PCR test every 3 days since December, so I know I had an actual cold and not COVID.
I'm curious to see how it's going with the employers mandating a return to the office? or are they still allowing Work From Home, or a hybrid of both?
Early in the pandemic there were lots of people declaring they'd never return to the office but now that it's happening, are they really quitting and changing jobs for that reason?
I'm aware of some big companies here saying employees need to be in the office by May or June, but that they are allowing supervisors some leeway in determining what's best for individuals, if possible. To me that seems reasonable.
I'm required to be in the office every day even though the parent entity requires my entity to have a WFH policy. (The head has just ignored this requirement.) Granted it's not just due to the WFH issue, but I am starting my job hunt in April (can't leave until mid-July) and will target hybrid jobs. I haven't seen any remote only jobs that I've been interested in yet.
My husband is required to be back in the office at least part-time starting in March. This is frustrating because 1) there is no point - none of his people are in this office (they are in another office), 2) they are removing the mask mandate at the same time, 3) our daughter isn't eligible for vaccination yet, and 4) our daycare is not permitted by the state to comingle classes so they are only open 9 hours instead of the 11 they were previously (we had them in for 10 hours) so it'll be a logistical challenge that didn't exist pre-pandemic.
I'm curious to see how it's going with the employers mandating a return to the office? or are they still allowing Work From Home, or a hybrid of both?
Early in the pandemic there were lots of people declaring they'd never return to the office but now that it's happening, are they really quitting and changing jobs for that reason?
I'm aware of some big companies here saying employees need to be in the office by May or June, but that they are allowing supervisors some leeway in determining what's best for individuals, if possible. To me that seems reasonable.
"We need asses in seats and all the gas wasted to do it. Whether or not there's a point to people being in the office! Fuck you environment, fuck you saving money, and fuck you employee happiness. Asses in seats are the only measure of work we're capable of determining!"
The CDC estimates that currently 43% of Americans have had Covid based on the infection-induced antibodies present in blood tests of 73,000 people conducted at the end of January*. A slight majority of children have had Covid, while most over the age of 50 have not.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#national-lab (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#national-lab)
The data is publicly available.
*seems the data has been extrapolated forward to arrive at the present 43.3%
You probably just had Covid
Probably not. 3 negative tests say otherwise.
This is fascinating. PCR tests? Rapid antigen tests?
You probably just had Covid
Probably not. 3 negative tests say otherwise.
So did we. But 1 of the 5 in the family tested positive, safe to assume everyone else with the exact same symptoms had it... but never tested +
This is fascinating. PCR tests? Rapid antigen tests?
You probably just had Covid
Probably not. 3 negative tests say otherwise.
So did we. But 1 of the 5 in the family tested positive, safe to assume everyone else with the exact same symptoms had it... but never tested +
I ask because I know people IRL who had the same experience...some didn't test positive and others did...a combination of PCR and antigen tests. Weird.
You probably just had Covid
Probably not. 3 negative tests say otherwise.
So did we. But 1 of the 5 in the family tested positive, safe to assume everyone else with the exact same symptoms had it... but never tested +
I’m not following your logic. Why is it “safe to assume” multiple people had false negative tests, rather than the alternative - that they never contacted Covid despite expose?
You probably just had Covid
Probably not. 3 negative tests say otherwise.
So did we. But 1 of the 5 in the family tested positive, safe to assume everyone else with the exact same symptoms had it... but never tested +
I’m not following your logic. Why is it “safe to assume” multiple people had false negative tests, rather than the alternative - that they never contacted Covid despite expose?
Most everyone I know who has kids in the school system got covid in the omicron wave. But almost all of us without children managed to avoid it. My social circle is mostly 40+ and a lot of us telecommute. I was at a table the other night with 6 people, 3 couples ranging in age from 30s to 60s, and none of us have had covid. But I also live in a highly vaccinated state, all of my friends got their boosters, and mask wearing was pretty universal during the omicron wave. And I didn't see anyone other than my husband for 5-6 weeks since I work from home and don't have to have any exposure. He did have a lot of less careful co-workers, mostly with kids, who got it.
Now that our wave has receded, our hospitals are down to August 2021 levels (which were very low here - we didn't have much of a delta wave), and our positivity rate is around 2%, I am taking advantage of the lull to resume a social life, go to the gym, restaurants, etc. I'm still wearing a mask in grocery stores because it's easy and risk is cumulative - it's not all or nothing. And I'm holding off on travel to Europe because they're still pretty omicroned up...which is curious because I thought they had omicron before we did in the US.
"We need asses in seats and all the gas wasted to do it. Whether or not there's a point to people being in the office! Fuck you environment, fuck you saving money, and fuck you employee happiness. Asses in seats are the only measure of work we're capable of determining!"LOL I thought you were talking about my office. Though to be fair to them, that's not the reason. Some jobs really did require being the office through the last 2 years, while others don't need to be there at all. But to keep people quiet that have been complaining that it is unfair to them to have to go to the office, now everyone gets to come in. <roll eyes> Its still just as dumb, but I am 10 months until FIRE, so I'll just suck it up for now.
A charming little article here that even mild covid can shrink your brain -
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04569-5
I'm still wearing a mask when shopping etc.
My youngest is eligible for the 5+ vaccine (vs the <5 that doesn't work) in a month. After that I'll stop giving a shit about anything covid, like everyone else has been doing since ~december 2020.
Neighbors who don't vax their kids and everyone gets covid, cousins who have huge family parties and everyone got covid, friends going to football games in fall 2020 (got covid).. Soon we can join the fun too!
A charming little article here that even mild covid can shrink your brain -
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04569-5
I'm still wearing a mask when shopping etc.
Makes me wonder how many other common cold strains do the exact same thing but no one did brain scans in the past to notice?
A charming little article here that even mild covid can shrink your brain -
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04569-5
I'm still wearing a mask when shopping etc.
Makes me wonder how many other common cold strains do the exact same thing but no one did brain scans in the past to notice?
Other common cold strains aren't associated with long-term neurologic deficits, so there was no incentive to study this. So I'd say very few strains.
A charming little article here that even mild covid can shrink your brain -
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04569-5
I'm still wearing a mask when shopping etc.
Makes me wonder how many other common cold strains do the exact same thing but no one did brain scans in the past to notice?
Other common cold strains aren't associated with long-term neurologic deficits, so there was no incentive to study this. So I'd say very few strains.
But how do we know this for sure? I mean, maybe we're all walking around with long-term neurologic deficits that we just call "normal life" and "normal aging" that are instead partially the result and accumulation of colds we've had over our lifetimes. It would be interesting to find an adult that had never had a cold and see how their brain might differ. But does such a person exist?
Obviously no one's developing any major deficits over one simple cold, that would probably be noticeable. But it's interesting to contemplate whether there are small impacts - smaller than from COVID, like the severity of a cold is typically lower than COVID.
A charming little article here that even mild covid can shrink your brain -
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04569-5
I'm still wearing a mask when shopping etc.
A charming little article here that even mild covid can shrink your brain -
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04569-5
I'm still wearing a mask when shopping etc.
Makes me wonder how many other common cold strains do the exact same thing but no one did brain scans in the past to notice?
Other common cold strains aren't associated with long-term neurologic deficits, so there was no incentive to study this. So I'd say very few strains.
But how do we know this for sure? I mean, maybe we're all walking around with long-term neurologic deficits that we just call "normal life" and "normal aging" that are instead partially the result and accumulation of colds we've had over our lifetimes. It would be interesting to find an adult that had never had a cold and see how their brain might differ. But does such a person exist?
Obviously no one's developing any major deficits over one simple cold, that would probably be noticeable. But it's interesting to contemplate whether there are small impacts - smaller than from COVID, like the severity of a cold is typically lower than COVID.
Regarding the bolded, that wouldn't be a good experiment. Too many potential confounding factors due to other differences between people.
The study published in Nature is well designed in terms of controls. They studied paired brain scans from the same people: one scan taken before COVID, the other taken after COVID. That eliminates potential confounders such as sex, age, previous infection history, comorbid disease, socioeconomic status, education, living environment, etc. The researchers found significant changes in a within-subject comparison from before to after COVID.
That does not rule out that other coronaviruses do not shrink your brain... which is what I am saying we do not know.
A charming little article here that even mild covid can shrink your brain -
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04569-5
I'm still wearing a mask when shopping etc.
Makes me wonder how many other common cold strains do the exact same thing but no one did brain scans in the past to notice?
Other common cold strains aren't associated with long-term neurologic deficits, so there was no incentive to study this. So I'd say very few strains.
But how do we know this for sure? I mean, maybe we're all walking around with long-term neurologic deficits that we just call "normal life" and "normal aging" that are instead partially the result and accumulation of colds we've had over our lifetimes. It would be interesting to find an adult that had never had a cold and see how their brain might differ. But does such a person exist?
Obviously no one's developing any major deficits over one simple cold, that would probably be noticeable. But it's interesting to contemplate whether there are small impacts - smaller than from COVID, like the severity of a cold is typically lower than COVID.
Regarding the bolded, that wouldn't be a good experiment. Too many potential confounding factors due to other differences between people.
The study published in Nature is well designed in terms of controls. They studied paired brain scans from the same people: one scan taken before COVID, the other taken after COVID. That eliminates potential confounders such as sex, age, previous infection history, comorbid disease, socioeconomic status, education, living environment, etc. The researchers found significant changes in a within-subject comparison from before to after COVID.
That does not rule out that other coronaviruses do not shrink your brain... which is what I am saying we do not know.
I'm wondering if expensive gasoline will return people to WFH?
I'm wondering if expensive gasoline will return people to WFH?
Some anecdata from Phoenix metro area: we're seeing rush hour traffic at 90% of pre-Covid levels, so I think that all of those people who were working from home during the pandemic and insisted they'd never return to the office have, in fact, returned to the office.
The corporations around here have decided it's time and employees seem to be complying vs. quitting to find that magical WFH job.
I'm wondering if expensive gasoline will return people to WFH?
Some anecdata from Phoenix metro area: we're seeing rush hour traffic at 90% of pre-Covid levels, so I think that all of those people who were working from home during the pandemic and insisted they'd never return to the office have, in fact, returned to the office.
The corporations around here have decided it's time and employees seem to be complying vs. quitting to find that magical WFH job.
Did more than 10% of people really insist that at the time? To me, rush hour traffic being at 90% (and assuming employment is higher than before, as it is in many places, or at least not lower) proves exactly the point you think it disproves.
Bizarrely the mask mandate expired at the beginning of the month, and yet I’m still seeing people in stores wearing masks but with them pulled down under their noses.
I'll take a stab at it. When covid was at its prime, I'd wear my mask like that sometimes outside when I was at a crowded outdoor area so that I could put it back on when I came upon other people. Even, now I'll wear my mask (correctly though) on occasion outside. I have to wear a mask at work. There have been times when I leave work and walk to my car still having my mask on. I've worn it all day and forget I have it on.Bizarrely the mask mandate expired at the beginning of the month, and yet I’m still seeing people in stores wearing masks but with them pulled down under their noses.
I've (recently) seen people outside with their masks under their noses- this was at a large park so it wasn't like they were going in and out of buildings. It makes no sense... and really shows how many people are using masks (either pro- or anti-) as group signaling rather than some kind of rationalized public good. Thoroughly disappointing how we can be so easily manipulated as a species. I'm sure I'm guilty of it too in ways I'm unaware of, which is the most disappointing part.
I had a really hard time not asking them why- because I was genuinely curious. I don't really care other than I'm curious if there is a reason that I'm missing.
I'll take a stab at it. When covid was at its prime, I'd wear my mask like that sometimes outside when I was at a crowded outdoor area so that I could put it back on when I came upon other people. Even, now I'll wear my mask (correctly though) on occasion outside. I have to wear a mask at work. There have been times when I leave work and walk to my car still having my mask on. I've worn it all day and forget I have it on.Bizarrely the mask mandate expired at the beginning of the month, and yet I’m still seeing people in stores wearing masks but with them pulled down under their noses.
I've (recently) seen people outside with their masks under their noses- this was at a large park so it wasn't like they were going in and out of buildings. It makes no sense... and really shows how many people are using masks (either pro- or anti-) as group signaling rather than some kind of rationalized public good. Thoroughly disappointing how we can be so easily manipulated as a species. I'm sure I'm guilty of it too in ways I'm unaware of, which is the most disappointing part.
I had a really hard time not asking them why- because I was genuinely curious. I don't really care other than I'm curious if there is a reason that I'm missing.
The other day I put on my mask outside because it was cold. Pulled it under my nose because I didn’t need that level of warmth. I’m gonna miss masks in winter - so much lighter weight and easier to tuck away than a scarf!Bizarrely the mask mandate expired at the beginning of the month, and yet I’m still seeing people in stores wearing masks but with them pulled down under their noses.
I've (recently) seen people outside with their masks under their noses- this was at a large park so it wasn't like they were going in and out of buildings. It makes no sense... and really shows how many people are using masks (either pro- or anti-) as group signaling rather than some kind of rationalized public good. Thoroughly disappointing how we can be so easily manipulated as a species. I'm sure I'm guilty of it too in ways I'm unaware of, which is the most disappointing part.
I had a really hard time not asking them why- because I was genuinely curious. I don't really care other than I'm curious if there is a reason that I'm missing.
I wear a mask outside still because it’s still very cold here (it was 4° F this morning.) it’s much, much more comfortable to wear a mask. If I get warned up I’ll pull it down, though.Yup! Spouse was complaining she had forgotten her scarf on a walk but then realized “oh wait, I e got my mask!”
I’m gonna miss masks in winter
Masks went optional in our schools two weeks ago. Most kids went mask free as soon as possible. Now my daughter's class had 3 positive test results out of 25 kids (one March 7, two March 10). Coincidence?
There were indeed zero reported cases in this class from Sept 2021 until last week.Masks went optional in our schools two weeks ago. Most kids went mask free as soon as possible. Now my daughter's class had 3 positive test results out of 25 kids (one March 7, two March 10). Coincidence?
Depends on if there were zero all year before
Masks went optional in our schools two weeks ago. Most kids went mask free as soon as possible. Now my daughter's class had 3 positive test results out of 25 kids (one March 7, two March 10). Coincidence?
Masks went optional in our schools two weeks ago. Most kids went mask free as soon as possible. Now my daughter's class had 3 positive test results out of 25 kids (one March 7, two March 10). Coincidence?
Improbable things happen all the time. However, this is likely not a coincidence.
Masks went optional in our schools two weeks ago. Most kids went mask free as soon as possible. Now my daughter's class had 3 positive test results out of 25 kids (one March 7, two March 10). Coincidence?
Improbable things happen all the time. However, this is likely not a coincidence.
Hard to know. Our schools went mask optional back in October. We had an increase in cases in the period after Thanksgiving and after Christmas and most, if not all of them were related to the parents getting COVID first. (we have a very small private school so it's pretty easy to track all this) So it seems that even without masks it didn't spread at school, it spread from adults at home to kids.
So in your case the cases might be coming from the parents doing less mask wearing and in general returning to more normalcy which lead to them getting COVID and the kids then getting it.
We got covid from my daughter's class. It was tracked from one kid in her class to home. She tested positive, then my husband and I and then my older daughter.Masks went optional in our schools two weeks ago. Most kids went mask free as soon as possible. Now my daughter's class had 3 positive test results out of 25 kids (one March 7, two March 10). Coincidence?
Improbable things happen all the time. However, this is likely not a coincidence.
Hard to know. Our schools went mask optional back in October. We had an increase in cases in the period after Thanksgiving and after Christmas and most, if not all of them were related to the parents getting COVID first. (we have a very small private school so it's pretty easy to track all this) So it seems that even without masks it didn't spread at school, it spread from adults at home to kids.
So in your case the cases might be coming from the parents doing less mask wearing and in general returning to more normalcy which lead to them getting COVID and the kids then getting it.
Here's an indication of normalcy where I live:
The 7 day average for new cases is zero in my county and it's been about a month since our last covid death.
In the end, we had 6 children in the class who came down with Covid between 3/7-3/14, including my own child. I am beyond angry, and hoping that we will not see long term effects. The masks went back on in that classroom and they offered remote lessons.There were indeed zero reported cases in this class from Sept 2021 until last week.Masks went optional in our schools two weeks ago. Most kids went mask free as soon as possible. Now my daughter's class had 3 positive test results out of 25 kids (one March 7, two March 10). Coincidence?
Depends on if there were zero all year before
QuoteIn the end, we had 6 children in the class who came down with Covid between 3/7-3/14, including my own child. I am beyond angry, and hoping that we will not see long term effects. The masks went back on in that classroom and they offered remote lessons.There were indeed zero reported cases in this class from Sept 2021 until last week.Masks went optional in our schools two weeks ago. Most kids went mask free as soon as possible. Now my daughter's class had 3 positive test results out of 25 kids (one March 7, two March 10). Coincidence?
Depends on if there were zero all year before
Since then, classes in the school are being hit a few at a time. My friend's daughter missed the state swimming championship because she had Covid.
I have this issue, with words I have used for decades since I was infected with COVID. And I agree with you, we all could have predicted this. People are choosing this and then wanting to pretend it is not the obvious reaction.QuoteIn the end, we had 6 children in the class who came down with Covid between 3/7-3/14, including my own child. I am beyond angry, and hoping that we will not see long term effects. The masks went back on in that classroom and they offered remote lessons.There were indeed zero reported cases in this class from Sept 2021 until last week.Masks went optional in our schools two weeks ago. Most kids went mask free as soon as possible. Now my daughter's class had 3 positive test results out of 25 kids (one March 7, two March 10). Coincidence?
Depends on if there were zero all year before
Since then, classes in the school are being hit a few at a time. My friend's daughter missed the state swimming championship because she had Covid.
I'm sorry @Poundwise. Hoping your child has a light case. The same thing happened to us - daycare removed masks over the summer right after the holiday weekend and 25 came down with COVID, 7 in my kid's classroom including my kid. My husband still worries the reason our kid sometimes has trouble finding words (that he didn't think was an issue before) is COVID related. We were super angry, particularly when the director told us "no one could have predicted this". Actually, I did. In fact, I reached out 4 different times (immediately on getting the mask email with no warning, on pickup that day almost in tears, scheduled a call with the owner, and an email when guidance came out by APA) to try to explain why this is a bad idea. At this least time they are keeping them until mid-May. I am fervently hoping the kids will be able to have at least one vaccination by then.
Consequences of unmasking: Overseas airlines are having to cancel hundreds of flights as they grapple with coronavirus-related staffing shortages weeks after they ditched rules requiring passengers and staff to mask up in the air.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/flights-canceled-covid-mask-rules-airlines/
This pandemic is not gone, and by unmasking we are just making it worse and decreasing the time between variants and increase the time in this pandemic.
One thing that does not yet seem normal is that so many businesses still have abbreviated hours. I ran an errand this morning and the store doesn’t open until 11 now. I had trouble scheduling a hair cut because the salon is now closed two days/week and has shorter hours overall.
In the end, we had 6 children in the class who came down with Covid between 3/7-3/14, including my own child. I am beyond angry, and hoping that we will not see long term effects. The masks went back on in that classroom and they offered remote lessons.
Since then, classes in the school are being hit a few at a time. My friend's daughter missed the state swimming championship because she had Covid.
I'm sorry @Poundwise. Hoping your child has a light case. The same thing happened to us - daycare removed masks over the summer right after the holiday weekend and 25 came down with COVID, 7 in my kid's classroom including my kid. My husband still worries the reason our kid sometimes has trouble finding words (that he didn't think was an issue before) is COVID related.
One family has two middle-school aged children, vaccinated, and both are sick. Sick enough that one was admitted to the hospital today for IV meds and observation, and the other child is going to be admitted if they haven't improved in the morning. So far the rest of the family hasn't tested positive. This whole family had Omicron back in late January.
We are continuing with the N95 usage and limiting our time indoors in public.
I got Omicron in January from youngest kid. Was boosted in late September. Still have fatigue, terrible sleep and can't exercise. 3 months later I'm no better. COVID sucks. I wish I could "get back to normal"Oh no. I would have thought the vaccine + booster would have protected you from long Covid :( That stinks :(
"With the most vulnerable people in mind, Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency physician at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, set out last month to determine how low cases would have to fall for people to stop indoor masking without endangering those with extremely weakened immune systems.From https://nyti.ms/3JYKtui
He imagined a hypothetical person who derived no benefit from vaccines, wore a good mask, took hard-to-get prophylactic medication, attended occasional gatherings and shopped but did not work in person. He set his sights on keeping vulnerable people’s chances of being infected below 1 percent over a four-month period.
To achieve that threshold, he found, the country would have to keep masking indoors until transmission fell below 50 weekly cases per 100,000 people — a stricter limit than the C.D.C. is currently using, but one that he said nevertheless offered a benchmark to aim for."
If anything needs to be mandated it's that everyone needs to spend a day outside, get some sunburn, eat an orange, run a mile, 50 pushups. I am not wearing a mask ever again unless extreme circumstances occur.I'm guessing you are not old enough to be in that risk group. And 50 pushups probably means male and not disabled. Congratulations on being in the group least likely to have serious illness or long term effects from covid. Please recognise that not all of us are so fortunate.
The booster shot is marginally effective for a couple months and useless after that. Also small chance of serious side effects for your 2 months of effectiveness.
Natural immunity is superior, despite what liars will tell you. This is was true for the entirety of the pandemic, and even more so now that the virus has evolved into new strains. the vaccine is based on the original strain. Let's say you caught delta or omicron, there is no benefit for you getting a booster after that.
Live a little! It's a slippery slope to wear masks for others "health" how far do you want to extend this logic?
Wow, ok. Natural immunity can cost you dearly, if you survive. My unvaccinated parents in their mid-sixties nearly did not survive delta last year and still have ongoing cognitive issues 10 months later. Mobility issues lasted several months and they still are unable to work.
The new normal at my gov workplace is "mandatory masks".
We wear them walking in/out of building, or in hallways, or breakroom, or going to the #1/#2 biz room.
Otherwise, take them off at desks. Haven't seen/heard a peep in opposition.
Everyone has to wear, irrespective of vaccination status.
I'm guessing you are not old enough to be in that risk group. And 50 pushups probably means male and not disabled. Congratulations on being in the group least likely to have serious illness or long term effects from covid. Please recognise that not all of us are so fortunate.The global death rate of males for Covid is about 50% higher than females.
Dh and I had our 4th booster shot. We continue to wear masks inside any public place. There are about 10 million people with Covid around here, though most are young and it's been mild.
We continue to live quite normally, just with masks on inside. No problem.
Wow, ok. Natural immunity can cost you dearly, if you survive. My unvaccinated parents in their mid-sixties nearly did not survive delta last year and still have ongoing cognitive issues 10 months later. Mobility issues lasted several months and they still are unable to work.
Natural immunity to me means you have had Covid already. Best to your parents. Sounds like they did not previously catch covid before delta.
I'm just saying this focus on boosters is false and misleading, particularly if you have already had covid, ie natural immunity.
For 20 minutes while grocery shopping? While on a plane? Meh...I mean, I work in semiconductors, so for 20 years (before I got a desk job), I wore a medical-grade mask (along with a full on cleanroom suit), almost all day every day. It's...no big deal?Dh and I had our 4th booster shot. We continue to wear masks inside any public place. There are about 10 million people with Covid around here, though most are young and it's been mild.
We continue to live quite normally, just with masks on inside. No problem.
You do you, but wearing masks is not normal, and we should not get used to that
If anything needs to be mandated it's that everyone needs to spend a day outside, get some sunburn, eat an orange, run a mile, 50 pushups.
You're not going to convince anyone here of this point...Dh and I had our 4th booster shot. We continue to wear masks inside any public place. There are about 10 million people with Covid around here, though most are young and it's been mild.
We continue to live quite normally, just with masks on inside. No problem.
You do you, but wearing masks is not normal, and we should not get used to that
Dh and I had our 4th booster shot. We continue to wear masks inside any public place. There are about 10 million people with Covid around here, though most are young and it's been mild.
We continue to live quite normally, just with masks on inside. No problem.
You do you, but wearing masks is not normal, and we should not get used to that
Dh and I had our 4th booster shot. We continue to wear masks inside any public place. There are about 10 million people with Covid around here, though most are young and it's been mild.
We continue to live quite normally, just with masks on inside. No problem.
You do you, but wearing masks is not normal, and we should not get used to that
I've always been a rebel! ;-) I have quite liked not getting colds, and since wearing a mask has zero problems for me, I'm good with the New Normal.
And where people don't suddenly accuse anyone of wearing a mask of being "abnormal". Or of mask wearing itself being "abnormal".Dh and I had our 4th booster shot. We continue to wear masks inside any public place. There are about 10 million people with Covid around here, though most are young and it's been mild.
We continue to live quite normally, just with masks on inside. No problem.
You do you, but wearing masks is not normal, and we should not get used to that
I've always been a rebel! ;-) I have quite liked not getting colds, and since wearing a mask has zero problems for me, I'm good with the New Normal.
I welcome a new normal where some people choose to wear masks and some don't depending on any number of factors.
Dh and I had our 4th booster shot. We continue to wear masks inside any public place. There are about 10 million people with Covid around here, though most are young and it's been mild.
We continue to live quite normally, just with masks on inside. No problem.
You do you, but wearing masks is not normal, and we should not get used to that
I've always been a rebel! ;-) I have quite liked not getting colds, and since wearing a mask has zero problems for me, I'm good with the New Normal.
I welcome a new normal where some people choose to wear masks and some don't depending on any number of factors.
I have a trip planned to Canada and the UK in September. Neither of those countries require SARS-CoV-2 tests to travel if you are fully vaccinated. But I'll need one to come back into the USA if nothing changes.
TH: Airline officials press Biden to end COVID-19 testing for international travelers (https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/3516154-airline-officials-press-biden-to-end-covid-19-testing-for-international-travelers/)
It's like the Democrats don't want to win the midterms.
The new normal at my gov workplace is "mandatory masks".
We wear them walking in/out of building, or in hallways, or breakroom, or going to the #1/#2 biz room.
Otherwise, take them off at desks. Haven't seen/heard a peep in opposition.
Everyone has to wear, irrespective of vaccination status.
Sounds like you need to retire early! These policies are a joke, especially if they allow cloth masks. What happens if you refuse?
My DD and SiL went to a wedding a few weeks ago. Totally outside. There was a dance floor. Almost everyone there got Covid, including the bride and groom, and DD and SiL (and their baby once they got home). Late 20s, early 30s. Not sick enough to go to the hospital but sick enough to really need to stay home and recover. DD still tires easily a few weeks later. Reminds me of when I had pneumonia in my early 40s, sick for a month, tired for another month. Not life-threatening, but definitely not trivial.Oh no :( and here I am feeling pretty safe outdoors. We attended an outdoor wedding in May. Thankfully all was good but I guess it was riskier than I thought.
I'm in an at-risk age group and have crappy lungs (never smoked, fyi) so I am still wearing my N95 when I go out in public places - indoors, and outside when there are lots of people.
Wearing masks to work sucks. But wearing pants to work also sucks. WFH forever!
Wearing masks to work sucks. But wearing pants to work also sucks. WFH forever!
Wearing masks to work sucks. But wearing pants to work also sucks. WFH forever!
That begs the obvious question! If you had to choose between: 1) wearing a mask but no pants, or 2) wearing pants but no mask, which do you pick??
Definitely depends on the mask, and the pants. If it's the choice between skinny jeans and one of those flimsy cloth masks that does little except comply with mandates, I'm going with the mask. If the choice is sweatpants vs. an N95 mask, I'll take the sweatpants.Wearing masks to work sucks. But wearing pants to work also sucks. WFH forever!That begs the obvious question! If you had to choose between: 1) wearing a mask but no pants, or 2) wearing pants but no mask, which do you pick??
this is the correct answer.Definitely depends on the mask, and the pants. If it's the choice between skinny jeans and one of those flimsy cloth masks that does little except comply with mandates, I'm going with the mask. If the choice is sweatpants vs. an N95 mask, I'll take the sweatpants.Wearing masks to work sucks. But wearing pants to work also sucks. WFH forever!That begs the obvious question! If you had to choose between: 1) wearing a mask but no pants, or 2) wearing pants but no mask, which do you pick??
I have a trip planned to Canada and the UK in September. Neither of those countries require SARS-CoV-2 tests to travel if you are fully vaccinated. But I'll need one to come back into the USA if nothing changes.
TH: Airline officials press Biden to end COVID-19 testing for international travelers (https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/3516154-airline-officials-press-biden-to-end-covid-19-testing-for-international-travelers/)
It's like the Democrats don't want to win the midterms.
I just went through this coming back from London. Not fun. You either need a negative test the day before or a certificate of recovery if you had COVID recently and would test positive (up to 90 days). So in the second case you need a positive test that you can print out from weeks ago, and a doctor to attest that you have no symptoms and are cleared to travel. Nice way to spend the last full day of your vacation.
I have a trip planned to Canada and the UK in September. Neither of those countries require SARS-CoV-2 tests to travel if you are fully vaccinated. But I'll need one to come back into the USA if nothing changes.
TH: Airline officials press Biden to end COVID-19 testing for international travelers (https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/3516154-airline-officials-press-biden-to-end-covid-19-testing-for-international-travelers/)
It's like the Democrats don't want to win the midterms.
I just went through this coming back from London. Not fun. You either need a negative test the day before or a certificate of recovery if you had COVID recently and would test positive (up to 90 days). So in the second case you need a positive test that you can print out from weeks ago, and a doctor to attest that you have no symptoms and are cleared to travel. Nice way to spend the last full day of your vacation.
🎉🎉🎉 NPR: Starting on Sunday, you won't have to test for COVID-19 to fly into the U.S. (https://www.npr.org/2022/06/10/1104138168/covid-19-negative-test-airline-travelers-lift) 🎉🎉🎉
I have a trip planned to Canada and the UK in September. Neither of those countries require SARS-CoV-2 tests to travel if you are fully vaccinated. But I'll need one to come back into the USA if nothing changes.
TH: Airline officials press Biden to end COVID-19 testing for international travelers (https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/3516154-airline-officials-press-biden-to-end-covid-19-testing-for-international-travelers/)
It's like the Democrats don't want to win the midterms.
I just went through this coming back from London. Not fun. You either need a negative test the day before or a certificate of recovery if you had COVID recently and would test positive (up to 90 days). So in the second case you need a positive test that you can print out from weeks ago, and a doctor to attest that you have no symptoms and are cleared to travel. Nice way to spend the last full day of your vacation.
🎉🎉🎉 NPR: Starting on Sunday, you won't have to test for COVID-19 to fly into the U.S. (https://www.npr.org/2022/06/10/1104138168/covid-19-negative-test-airline-travelers-lift) 🎉🎉🎉
Thank goodness. I never thought the policy made a lot of sense. It's not like COVID doesn't exist in the USA.
I have a trip planned to Canada and the UK in September. Neither of those countries require SARS-CoV-2 tests to travel if you are fully vaccinated. But I'll need one to come back into the USA if nothing changes.
TH: Airline officials press Biden to end COVID-19 testing for international travelers (https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/3516154-airline-officials-press-biden-to-end-covid-19-testing-for-international-travelers/)
It's like the Democrats don't want to win the midterms.
I just went through this coming back from London. Not fun. You either need a negative test the day before or a certificate of recovery if you had COVID recently and would test positive (up to 90 days). So in the second case you need a positive test that you can print out from weeks ago, and a doctor to attest that you have no symptoms and are cleared to travel. Nice way to spend the last full day of your vacation.
🎉🎉🎉 NPR: Starting on Sunday, you won't have to test for COVID-19 to fly into the U.S. (https://www.npr.org/2022/06/10/1104138168/covid-19-negative-test-airline-travelers-lift) 🎉🎉🎉
Thank goodness. I never thought the policy made a lot of sense. It's not like COVID doesn't exist in the USA.
I have a trip planned to Canada and the UK in September. Neither of those countries require SARS-CoV-2 tests to travel if you are fully vaccinated. But I'll need one to come back into the USA if nothing changes.
TH: Airline officials press Biden to end COVID-19 testing for international travelers (https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/3516154-airline-officials-press-biden-to-end-covid-19-testing-for-international-travelers/)
It's like the Democrats don't want to win the midterms.
I just went through this coming back from London. Not fun. You either need a negative test the day before or a certificate of recovery if you had COVID recently and would test positive (up to 90 days). So in the second case you need a positive test that you can print out from weeks ago, and a doctor to attest that you have no symptoms and are cleared to travel. Nice way to spend the last full day of your vacation.
🎉🎉🎉 NPR: Starting on Sunday, you won't have to test for COVID-19 to fly into the U.S. (https://www.npr.org/2022/06/10/1104138168/covid-19-negative-test-airline-travelers-lift) 🎉🎉🎉
My DD and SiL went to a wedding a few weeks ago. Totally outside. There was a dance floor. Almost everyone there got Covid, including the bride and groom, and DD and SiL (and their baby once they got home). Late 20s, early 30s. Not sick enough to go to the hospital but sick enough to really need to stay home and recover. DD still tires easily a few weeks later. Reminds me of when I had pneumonia in my early 40s, sick for a month, tired for another month. Not life-threatening, but definitely not trivial.Oh no :( and here I am feeling pretty safe outdoors. We attended an outdoor wedding in May. Thankfully all was good but I guess it was riskier than I thought.
I'm in an at-risk age group and have crappy lungs (never smoked, fyi) so I am still wearing my N95 when I go out in public places - indoors, and outside when there are lots of people.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have a trip planned to Canada and the UK in September. Neither of those countries require SARS-CoV-2 tests to travel if you are fully vaccinated. But I'll need one to come back into the USA if nothing changes.
TH: Airline officials press Biden to end COVID-19 testing for international travelers (https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/3516154-airline-officials-press-biden-to-end-covid-19-testing-for-international-travelers/)
It's like the Democrats don't want to win the midterms.
I just went through this coming back from London. Not fun. You either need a negative test the day before or a certificate of recovery if you had COVID recently and would test positive (up to 90 days). So in the second case you need a positive test that you can print out from weeks ago, and a doctor to attest that you have no symptoms and are cleared to travel. Nice way to spend the last full day of your vacation.
🎉🎉🎉 NPR: Starting on Sunday, you won't have to test for COVID-19 to fly into the U.S. (https://www.npr.org/2022/06/10/1104138168/covid-19-negative-test-airline-travelers-lift) 🎉🎉🎉
I have a trip planned to Canada and the UK in September. Neither of those countries require SARS-CoV-2 tests to travel if you are fully vaccinated. But I'll need one to come back into the USA if nothing changes.
TH: Airline officials press Biden to end COVID-19 testing for international travelers (https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/3516154-airline-officials-press-biden-to-end-covid-19-testing-for-international-travelers/)
It's like the Democrats don't want to win the midterms.
I just went through this coming back from London. Not fun. You either need a negative test the day before or a certificate of recovery if you had COVID recently and would test positive (up to 90 days). So in the second case you need a positive test that you can print out from weeks ago, and a doctor to attest that you have no symptoms and are cleared to travel. Nice way to spend the last full day of your vacation.
🎉🎉🎉 NPR: Starting on Sunday, you won't have to test for COVID-19 to fly into the U.S. (https://www.npr.org/2022/06/10/1104138168/covid-19-negative-test-airline-travelers-lift) 🎉🎉🎉
Which means that half the people on your plane probably have covid. This will not bother lots of people, but will definitely be a factor for me.
Where I live pretty much noone has spoken about covid in the last 4 months. And whenever its a topic its always in past tense. A bygone era. A thing of the past you remember and memory itself is already getting foggy. A lot of folks have already forgotten the once strong opinions and how tragic every single covid case was and there were no limits to what should be done to prevent it. As a fun fact deaths from covid peaked several weeks after it was decleared over (and our count is highly accurate its not like there were a lot proior that got unreported). Almost noone is aware of this as the newspapers etc stopped publishing daily updates when everything reopened and life was back to normal.
Probs around 0.01% of gen pop wear a mask in public settings. If even. Public space, public transport, bars, restaurant, concert venues. All packed. No masks.
To me its utterly bizzarre this is still a thing in the western henisphere.
As a side note it was in the news the other day that we've had the highest excess deaths since ages last year. Not due to covid, but predominantly from various heart problems. The intersting part isn't the number itself or the causes, but the fact that noone, and I mean abseloutely noone gives a flying fuck. If we a year or two had the same numbers of excess deaths due to covid the whole nation would have freaked out. Our CDC had no clear explanation, but a few theories.
(I live in Norway, btw)
Media driven terror. There are still people wearing masks in their cars, alone, outside.Where I live pretty much noone has spoken about covid in the last 4 months. And whenever its a topic its always in past tense. A bygone era. A thing of the past you remember and memory itself is already getting foggy. A lot of folks have already forgotten the once strong opinions and how tragic every single covid case was and there were no limits to what should be done to prevent it. As a fun fact deaths from covid peaked several weeks after it was decleared over (and our count is highly accurate its not like there were a lot proior that got unreported). Almost noone is aware of this as the newspapers etc stopped publishing daily updates when everything reopened and life was back to normal.
Probs around 0.01% of gen pop wear a mask in public settings. If even. Public space, public transport, bars, restaurant, concert venues. All packed. No masks.
To me its utterly bizzarre this is still a thing in the western henisphere.
As a side note it was in the news the other day that we've had the highest excess deaths since ages last year. Not due to covid, but predominantly from various heart problems. The intersting part isn't the number itself or the causes, but the fact that noone, and I mean abseloutely noone gives a flying fuck. If we a year or two had the same numbers of excess deaths due to covid the whole nation would have freaked out. Our CDC had no clear explanation, but a few theories.
(I live in Norway, btw)
Media driven terror. There are still people wearing masks in their cars, alone, outside.
Yeah if I'm wearing a mask in the car when alone, it's because I'm too lazy to take the mask off in between stops. (It also speaks to the fact that masking is not so onerous that I need to strip it off the instant I'm in the car....)
Or it's because work was done on our car, and we're being cautious right afterwards till it airs out, because I'm not going to assume that the repair technician wore a mask while in it.
Yeah if I'm wearing a mask in the car when alone, it's because I'm too lazy to take the mask off in between stops. (It also speaks to the fact that masking is not so onerous that I need to strip it off the instant I'm in the car....)
Or it's because work was done on our car, and we're being cautious right afterwards till it airs out, because I'm not going to assume that the repair technician wore a mask while in it.
too lazy to take the mask off in between stops
example of virtue signaling
Viral infections are spread through tiny droplets that people exhale. Masks reduce that very spread
example of media driven hysteria
Lol I had a good chuckle at this. if the first part is serious, it's a prime example of virtue signaling. If the second part is serious, it's a prime example of media driven hysteriaYeah if I'm wearing a mask in the car when alone, it's because I'm too lazy to take the mask off in between stops. (It also speaks to the fact that masking is not so onerous that I need to strip it off the instant I'm in the car....)
Or it's because work was done on our car, and we're being cautious right afterwards till it airs out, because I'm not going to assume that the repair technician wore a mask while in it.
I don't understand why people are so snickery about those of us who continue to take precautions. Even if you consider them extreme.
You don't know that we don't have immunocomprised family at home or are such ourselves. Or have someone too young for a vaccine in our circle. You have no idea what others' situations may be, so please don't presume that you know best.
I will continue to do what I believe is best for me and my circle - I don't care what others say or think.
I kind of wonder if it isn't some degree of fear behind it - it reminds people that there's a potentially dangerous virus out there.
Lol I had a good chuckle at this. if the first part is serious, it's a prime example of virtue signaling. If the second part is serious, it's a prime example of media driven hysteriaYeah if I'm wearing a mask in the car when alone, it's because I'm too lazy to take the mask off in between stops. (It also speaks to the fact that masking is not so onerous that I need to strip it off the instant I'm in the car....)
Or it's because work was done on our car, and we're being cautious right afterwards till it airs out, because I'm not going to assume that the repair technician wore a mask while in it.
Lol I had a good chuckle at this. if the first part is serious, it's a prime example of virtue signaling. If the second part is serious, it's a prime example of media driven hysteriaYeah if I'm wearing a mask in the car when alone, it's because I'm too lazy to take the mask off in between stops. (It also speaks to the fact that masking is not so onerous that I need to strip it off the instant I'm in the car....)
Or it's because work was done on our car, and we're being cautious right afterwards till it airs out, because I'm not going to assume that the repair technician wore a mask while in it.
I'm perplexed by your response.
1) I rarely pay attention to drivers in other cars unless they drive so poorly that I feel the need to peek and see them. How exactly does laziness between short stops become virtue signaling? (Note, it's not like I do this often. We're talking only like a few tiems.)
2) Media driven hysteria. Well my spouse has a history of working in science, including a PhD and a pretty solid understanding of how viruses spread, so I'm fairly certain from conversations with him plus my own public health work that yes, if someone spends a lot of time unmasked in a small enclosed area such as a car they can pass it on through airborne particles. There were reports of people getting it from elevators even. Again, masking is easy so why not mask and limit your risk?
Is it now fair game to take pot shots at other posters/people for their personal decisions over masking? If so, I can go off on some tangents about the wild irresponsibility of people I've seen who are visibly sick and don't wear masks, whether or not they have COVID.I don't understand why people are so snickery about those of us who continue to take precautions. Even if you consider them extreme.
You don't know that we don't have immunocomprised family at home or are such ourselves. Or have someone too young for a vaccine in our circle. You have no idea what others' situations may be, so please don't presume that you know best.
I will continue to do what I believe is best for me and my circle - I don't care what others say or think.
I kind of wonder if it isn't some degree of fear behind it - it reminds people that there's a potentially dangerous virus out there.
Yeah.
We have a child too young to be vaccinated, plus a grandparent we see frequently with multiple serious health conditions.
@joemcd333, What do you fear so much about my masking that causes you to mock me?
Last weekend I went to a concert, 10,000 people. I wore a mask and only saw one other person wearing a mask.
I'm vaxxed and boosted so I'm not particularly worried about an initial infection. My worries are long covid, which can afffect all the major organs in the body including the brain and which vaccination only protects against to a fairly minimal extent (i've read 15% reduction in occurence after infection) and the increased chance of death in the year following a covid infection. Anyone judging me for wearing a mask to protect myself against those risks is not someone whose judgement I would respect.
(I bought the tickets for the concert before the pandemic and it was postponed twice. The risk of attending while wearing a mask was one I judged worth it. I'm very glad I went, it was tremendous, and so far so good on the covid front.)
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-01453-0Last weekend I went to a concert, 10,000 people. I wore a mask and only saw one other person wearing a mask.
I'm vaxxed and boosted so I'm not particularly worried about an initial infection. My worries are long covid, which can afffect all the major organs in the body including the brain and which vaccination only protects against to a fairly minimal extent (i've read 15% reduction in occurence after infection) and the increased chance of death in the year following a covid infection. Anyone judging me for wearing a mask to protect myself against those risks is not someone whose judgement I would respect.
(I bought the tickets for the concert before the pandemic and it was postponed twice. The risk of attending while wearing a mask was one I judged worth it. I'm very glad I went, it was tremendous, and so far so good on the covid front.)
Genuine question: Have there been any documented cases of individuals who are vaxxed (let alone boosted) who have gotten cCOVID and experienced any long COVID symptoms? I know people who have had long COVID symptoms and I know there's plenty of folks with long COVID symptoms documented, but I'm completely unaware of anyone who has been fully vaxxed who has gotten COVID and experienced any long COVID symptoms whatsoever. To my knowledge, I haven't read any articles/cases with examples of this or know anyone in this boat. My understanding is that if you don't have a severely immunocompromised system, then the efficacy of the vaccine is such that the drastic reduction in symptom severity has also virtually eliminated the risk of long COVID.
Again, I would genuinely be interested in any data/sources of folks who were fully vaxxed but still caught COVID and experienced long COVID symptoms. I'm guessing if such examples exist it would be exceedingly likely they were folks who were severely immunocompromised.
Just to be clear - I'm in no way poking fun at you or insulting you for wearing a mask - I'm just genuinely interested in any data on folks who were fully vaxxed and subsequently experienced long COVID as I agree long COVID is scary.
Genuine question: Have there been any documented cases of individuals who are vaxxed (let alone boosted) who have gotten cCOVID and experienced any long COVID symptoms?
Last weekend I went to a concert, 10,000 people. I wore a mask and only saw one other person wearing a mask.
I'm vaxxed and boosted so I'm not particularly worried about an initial infection. My worries are long covid, which can afffect all the major organs in the body including the brain and which vaccination only protects against to a fairly minimal extent (i've read 15% reduction in occurence after infection) and the increased chance of death in the year following a covid infection. Anyone judging me for wearing a mask to protect myself against those risks is not someone whose judgement I would respect.
(I bought the tickets for the concert before the pandemic and it was postponed twice. The risk of attending while wearing a mask was one I judged worth it. I'm very glad I went, it was tremendous, and so far so good on the covid front.)
Genuine question: Have there been any documented cases of individuals who are vaxxed (let alone boosted) who have gotten cCOVID and experienced any long COVID symptoms? I know people who have had long COVID symptoms and I know there's plenty of folks with long COVID symptoms documented, but I'm completely unaware of anyone who has been fully vaxxed who has gotten COVID and experienced any long COVID symptoms whatsoever. To my knowledge, I haven't read any articles/cases with examples of this or know anyone in this boat. My understanding is that if you don't have a severely immunocompromised system, then the efficacy of the vaccine is such that the drastic reduction in symptom severity has also virtually eliminated the risk of long COVID.
Again, I would genuinely be interested in any data/sources of folks who were fully vaxxed but still caught COVID and experienced long COVID symptoms. I'm guessing if such examples exist it would be exceedingly likely they were folks who were severely immunocompromised.
Just to be clear - I'm in no way poking fun at you or insulting you for wearing a mask - I'm just genuinely interested in any data on folks who were fully vaxxed and subsequently experienced long COVID as I agree long COVID is scary.
Lol I had a good chuckle at this. if the first part is serious, it's a prime example of virtue signaling. If the second part is serious, it's a prime example of media driven hysteriaYeah if I'm wearing a mask in the car when alone, it's because I'm too lazy to take the mask off in between stops. (It also speaks to the fact that masking is not so onerous that I need to strip it off the instant I'm in the car....)
Or it's because work was done on our car, and we're being cautious right afterwards till it airs out, because I'm not going to assume that the repair technician wore a mask while in it.
I'm perplexed by your response.
1) I rarely pay attention to drivers in other cars unless they drive so poorly that I feel the need to peek and see them. How exactly does laziness between short stops become virtue signaling? (Note, it's not like I do this often. We're talking only like a few items.)
2) Media driven hysteria. Well my spouse has a history of working in science, including a PhD and a pretty solid understanding of how viruses spread, so I'm fairly certain from conversations with him plus my own public health work that yes, if someone spends a lot of time unmasked in a small enclosed area such as a car they can pass it on through airborne particles. There were reports of people getting it from elevators even. Again, masking is easy so why not mask and limit your risk?
Is it now fair game to take pot shots at other posters/people for their personal decisions over masking? If so, I can go off on some tangents about the wild irresponsibility of people I've seen who are visibly sick and don't wear masks, whether or not they have COVID.I don't understand why people are so snickery about those of us who continue to take precautions. Even if you consider them extreme.
You don't know that we don't have immunocomprised family at home or are such ourselves. Or have someone too young for a vaccine in our circle. You have no idea what others' situations may be, so please don't presume that you know best.
I will continue to do what I believe is best for me and my circle - I don't care what others say or think.
I kind of wonder if it isn't some degree of fear behind it - it reminds people that there's a potentially dangerous virus out there.
Yeah.
We have a child too young to be vaccinated, plus a grandparent we see frequently with multiple serious health conditions.
@joemcd333, What do you fear so much about my masking that causes you to mock me?
I wouldn't say mocking. Toughen up!
It's virtue signaling. It's not laziness. You are lying. Laziness is not wearing a mask at all. If you wear one, alone, its because you like wearing it. You like what you perceive it says about you. It is objectively more comfortable to not wear one, and healthier not to wear one if your mask hygiene is not perfect.
Reports of people getting it from elevators? Where's the proof? Sounds like media driven hysteria.
Why don't I wear one? Hmm, well I enjoy fresh air, I like being able to see people smile and talk. I want my young kids to learn how to talk and requires seeing a mouth. My wife is a speech therapist, and she says on average, kids of today are 6 months behind on developmental milestones. 6 MONTHS!
It is interesting to me to see both of you claim the fear is coming from my side. That is some next level logic! It isn't fear. It's annoyance/anger. Your logic doesn't hold up. You say one thing and mean something else. You both want to protect kids too young to be vaccinated? BS! That age group has no issues with covid, especially the weak ass new variants.Lol I had a good chuckle at this. if the first part is serious, it's a prime example of virtue signaling. If the second part is serious, it's a prime example of media driven hysteriaYeah if I'm wearing a mask in the car when alone, it's because I'm too lazy to take the mask off in between stops. (It also speaks to the fact that masking is not so onerous that I need to strip it off the instant I'm in the car....)
Or it's because work was done on our car, and we're being cautious right afterwards till it airs out, because I'm not going to assume that the repair technician wore a mask while in it.
I'm perplexed by your response.
1) I rarely pay attention to drivers in other cars unless they drive so poorly that I feel the need to peek and see them. How exactly does laziness between short stops become virtue signaling? (Note, it's not like I do this often. We're talking only like a few items.)
2) Media driven hysteria. Well my spouse has a history of working in science, including a PhD and a pretty solid understanding of how viruses spread, so I'm fairly certain from conversations with him plus my own public health work that yes, if someone spends a lot of time unmasked in a small enclosed area such as a car they can pass it on through airborne particles. There were reports of people getting it from elevators even. Again, masking is easy so why not mask and limit your risk?
Is it now fair game to take pot shots at other posters/people for their personal decisions over masking? If so, I can go off on some tangents about the wild irresponsibility of people I've seen who are visibly sick and don't wear masks, whether or not they have COVID.I don't understand why people are so snickery about those of us who continue to take precautions. Even if you consider them extreme.
You don't know that we don't have immunocomprised family at home or are such ourselves. Or have someone too young for a vaccine in our circle. You have no idea what others' situations may be, so please don't presume that you know best.
I will continue to do what I believe is best for me and my circle - I don't care what others say or think.
I kind of wonder if it isn't some degree of fear behind it - it reminds people that there's a potentially dangerous virus out there.
Yeah.
We have a child too young to be vaccinated, plus a grandparent we see frequently with multiple serious health conditions.
@joemcd333, What do you fear so much about my masking that causes you to mock me?
Honestly, it's not even worth conversing with someone who "interacts" like this.
You say one thing and mean something else.
We say one thing which we mean, and you decide to completely ignore it and insert whatever meaning you feel works for you and your story.
Already reported for trolling... every post is trying to stir up shit, but no one seems to care.
Already reported for trolling... every post is trying to stir up shit, but no one seems to care.
It's not trolling, it's just a different perspective that most don't agree with. No rules on the forum for having disagreeable opinions. There are kernels of discussion in it: like questioning whether or not you can catch airborne covid in your car after someone with covid has been working on it (and how often is someone working in your car anyway?). That's a genuinely interesting question; what would be the circumstances for transmission in this scenario? I would guess that it's closer to the "leave your groceries in your garage for three days" level of prevention than "don't sneeze in peoples' faces" on the scale of actual danger.
Mind you, I am not the OP, but come on... if you can't handle that level of diverse opinion then you're proving their point.
I also don't care if people wear masks wherever- outdoors (maybe they have allergies?), in their car (it does sound more convenient for me), whatever.
Already reported for trolling... every post is trying to stir up shit, but no one seems to care.
It's not trolling, it's just a different perspective that most don't agree with. No rules on the forum for having disagreeable opinions. There are kernels of discussion in it: like questioning whether or not you can catch airborne covid in your car after someone with covid has been working on it (and how often is someone working in your car anyway?). That's a genuinely interesting question; what would be the circumstances for transmission in this scenario? I would guess that it's closer to the "leave your groceries in your garage for three days" level of prevention than "don't sneeze in peoples' faces" on the scale of actual danger.
Mind you, I am not the OP, but come on... if you can't handle that level of diverse opinion then you're proving their point.
I also don't care if people wear masks wherever- outdoors (maybe they have allergies?), in their car (it does sound more convenient for me), whatever.
Already reported for trolling... every post is trying to stir up shit, but no one seems to care.
It's not trolling, it's just a different perspective that most don't agree with. No rules on the forum for having disagreeable opinions. There are kernels of discussion in it: like questioning whether or not you can catch airborne covid in your car after someone with covid has been working on it (and how often is someone working in your car anyway?). That's a genuinely interesting question; what would be the circumstances for transmission in this scenario? I would guess that it's closer to the "leave your groceries in your garage for three days" level of prevention than "don't sneeze in peoples' faces" on the scale of actual danger.
Mind you, I am not the OP, but come on... if you can't handle that level of diverse opinion then you're proving their point.
I also don't care if people wear masks wherever- outdoors (maybe they have allergies?), in their car (it does sound more convenient for me), whatever.
Already reported for trolling... every post is trying to stir up shit, but no one seems to care.
It's not trolling, it's just a different perspective that most don't agree with. No rules on the forum for having disagreeable opinions. There are kernels of discussion in it: like questioning whether or not you can catch airborne covid in your car after someone with covid has been working on it (and how often is someone working in your car anyway?). That's a genuinely interesting question; what would be the circumstances for transmission in this scenario? I would guess that it's closer to the "leave your groceries in your garage for three days" level of prevention than "don't sneeze in peoples' faces" on the scale of actual danger.
Mind you, I am not the OP, but come on... if you can't handle that level of diverse opinion then you're proving their point.
I also don't care if people wear masks wherever- outdoors (maybe they have allergies?), in their car (it does sound more convenient for me), whatever.
You don't think it's a genuinely interesting question, you're a liar. You're actually a covid denier trying to act sincere when really you just want to distract from the real conversation.
Now obviously I'm just kidding, but you see how that's more than just a "different perspective", right?
questioning whether or not you can catch airborne covid in your car after someone with covid has been working on it (and how often is someone working in your car anyway?). That's a genuinely interesting question; what would be the circumstances for transmission in this scenario? I would guess that it's closer to the "leave your groceries in your garage for three days" level of prevention than "don't sneeze in peoples' faces" on the scale of actual danger.
I wouldn't say mocking. Toughen up!If it quacks like a duck...no, it's mocking. You decided on your own, without knowing her (or me, as I said that same thing) - that wearing a mask in between stops is virtue signaling, not laziness. Nope, it's 100% laziness.
It's virtue signaling. It's not laziness. You are lying. Laziness is not wearing a mask at all. If you wear one, alone, its because you like wearing it. You like what you perceive it says about you. It is objectively more comfortable to not wear one, and healthier not to wear one if your mask hygiene is not perfect.
Reports of people getting it from elevators? Where's the proof? Sounds like media driven hysteria.
Why don't I wear one? Hmm, well I enjoy fresh air, I like being able to see people smile and talk. I want my young kids to learn how to talk and requires seeing a mouth. My wife is a speech therapist, and she says on average, kids of today are 6 months behind on developmental milestones. 6 MONTHS!
It is interesting to me to see both of you claim the fear is coming from my side. That is some next level logic! It isn't fear. It's annoyance/anger. Your logic doesn't hold up. You say one thing and mean something else. You both want to protect kids too young to be vaccinated? BS! That age group has no issues with covid, especially the weak ass new variants.
Actual stated factual reason a person decided to do somethingQuotetoo lazy to take the mask off in between stops
Reality distortion field activatedQuoteexample of virtue signaling
Actual scientific factQuoteViral infections are spread through tiny droplets that people exhale. Masks reduce that very spread
Reality distortion field activatedQuoteexample of media driven hysteria
Already reported for trolling... every post is trying to stir up shit, but no one seems to care.
It's not trolling, it's just a different perspective that most don't agree with. No rules on the forum for having disagreeable opinions.
Yes, does this mean that from now on, as people enter their 60s or late 50s, they will have to start sequestering themselves and wearing masks? Ouch.
Yes, does this mean that from now on, as people enter their 60s or late 50s, they will have to start sequestering themselves and wearing masks? Ouch.
Yes, does this mean that from now on, as people enter their 60s or late 50s, they will have to start sequestering themselves and wearing masks? Ouch.
I'm guessing most people of that age will just get their annual flu/covid shot and consider it sufficient protection.
I don't understand why people are so snickery about those of us who continue to take precautions. Even if you consider them extreme.
You don't know that we don't have immunocomprised family at home or are such ourselves. Or have someone too young for a vaccine in our circle. You have no idea what others' situations may be, so please don't presume that you know best.
I will continue to do what I believe is best for me and my circle - I don't care what others say or think.
I kind of wonder if it isn't some degree of fear behind it - it reminds people that there's a potentially dangerous virus out there.
I kind of wonder if it isn't some degree of fear behind it - it reminds people that there's a potentially dangerous virus out there.
Random curiosity as far as "getting back to normal" - is anyone going back to blowing out candles on an entire birthday cake?
I think I saw someone with kids cut the cake up in advance and then set the birthday kid's aside with candles on it to blow out, but I'm actually even wondering if a lot of folks would be unwilling to have someone blow out candles forcefully at all (whether on a cake or not) with a bunch of people in the room breathing it in.
I wonder if 100 years from now people will tell their kids about blowing out candles like how we (or at least I?) would talk about people who throw salt over their shoulders or make signs to ward off the evil eye.
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2cDepends on the circumstances and the amount of virus around. I wore one to a 10,000 person concert a week ago and I wear one in the supermarket but that's about all these days.
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2c
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2c
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2c
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2cIt depends.
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2c
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2cMy mother’s 91. She recently got covid19 and I went there to look after her while she was sick since the carers (who come to clean the house and do the washing) couldn’t come while she was positive. She lives 7.5 hours drive away. If I’d got it while I was there, no one would have been able to look after me, and I couldn’t have got home (covid19 positive people aren’t allowed to drive for more than 4 hours, even if I wanted to, and aren’t allowed on planes…). So I was very, very careful.
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2c
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2cMy partner is a health care provider, if she tests positive she can't see her clients (and doesn't make any money), so she is pretty serious about mask protocol.
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2cMy partner is a health care provider, if she tests positive she can't see her clients (and doesn't make any money), so she is pretty serious about mask protocol.
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
She went to her nephews graduation and was one of about ten people that masked up among thousands.
Unfortunately her antivax trumper family was sick (with a cold! Which was bs) and so her 80 y/o mother, who she was in close contact with, tested positive. No one else even bothered testing because "there is no pandemic, covid is a hoax". When told about grandma the response was "hmmm, interesting".
So my partner cancelled all her clients for the week, stayed home, masked everywhere, and made no $. She masked indoors and we slept in separate rooms.
It's not so simple.
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2cWhy not wear a mask? Also being genuine here, not snarky. If there are plenty of establishments in which people are expected to wear shirts and shoes, why would adding a mask to the mix be all that onerous?
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Not really a response to anyone, just my 2c
If you want to wear a mask, knock yourself out, just don't expect me to wear one
For all you mask wearers, at what point do you decide it's "safe" enough to go without? Honest question, not trying to be snarky
Considering I caught long COVID while wearing a face mask and maintaining distance I put zero stock into a paper mask doing anything more than building false confidence.
If you are exposed to the virus while wearing a KN95, you are less likely to develop COVID-19
All these masks reduce the spread of the virus from the person wearing a mask. However, a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study (2022) found that consistently wearing a N95 or KN95 mask in indoor public settings reduced the odds of getting COVID-19 by 83 percent.
Took air Canada from the states to Ireland for vacation and masks were mandatory. Left on a Friday and by Wednesday night was sick with Covid. I tested and reported to the tour company although I didn’t have to. That’s the end of the tour for me. Others felt sick but didn’t want to be left behind like me so stayed on the tour. Ireland doesn’t have a mandatory quarantine but the company is making me isolate for 8 days before they will send me home. Probably done with international travel as it’s a waste of money and not fun to be stuck in a foreign country alone when sick.
They won’t give a refund. My friend that stayed on the tour said that she and many others feel like they have colds which is how I feel. They all finished the tour and leaving tomorrow. I can’t leave until Friday.
Took air Canada from the states to Ireland for vacation and masks were mandatory. Left on a Friday and by Wednesday night was sick with Covid. I tested and reported to the tour company although I didn’t have to. That’s the end of the tour for me. Others felt sick but didn’t want to be left behind like me so stayed on the tour. Ireland doesn’t have a mandatory quarantine but the company is making me isolate for 8 days before they will send me home. Probably done with international travel as it’s a waste of money and not fun to be stuck in a foreign country alone when sick.
Here's a paper on the odds of getting long covid. It's bad news if you are middle aged, female, asthmatic or have existing health issues -
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/up-to-one-in-six-people-covid-19-long-covid-symptoms
And long covid is serious enough for 20% to be unable to work and 45% to need reduced work schedules, with a terrifying list of potential symptoms -
https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/15/long-covid-has-over-200-symptoms-and-leaves-1-in-5-unable-to-work-study-finds/amp/
Numbers are rising here in the UK and I'm back to masking up every time indoors, not just for the longer/riskier exposures.
Here's a paper on the odds of getting long covid. It's bad news if you are middle aged, female, asthmatic or have existing health issues -
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/up-to-one-in-six-people-covid-19-long-covid-symptoms
And long covid is serious enough for 20% to be unable to work and 45% to need reduced work schedules, with a terrifying list of potential symptoms -
https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/15/long-covid-has-over-200-symptoms-and-leaves-1-in-5-unable-to-work-study-finds/amp/
Numbers are rising here in the UK and I'm back to masking up every time indoors, not just for the longer/riskier exposures.
The study that your first article is based on is an interesting read (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-30836-0.epdf?). I was surprised to see the ages worst impacted by long covid . . . highest risk for those aged 45–54 and 55–69, with lower risk above and below those ranges. That's very different than the original "covid is only a problem for old people" advice that we were all getting.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/02/covid-anti-vaccine-smoking/622819/
This article suggests covid is the new smoking...
The only concession I have given regarding Covid for the last 7 months has been that I still don't feel right about going to the gym.
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted. We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless. And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout. We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out. We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later. Vaccines can SMD.
I had a great deal of difficultly getting the tour company to make my arrangements to go home. They contracted with a 3rd party vendor that is incompetent. Luckily Monday I got this sweet young guy in the support department of the tour company that had a mom my age and he felt so bad for me. He used his contacts in other departments to book my flight home on Friday and it’s a excellent flight. I am in the middle of nowhere 4 hours from Dublin and he hired a private driver to pick me up tomorrow morning and then take me to the hotel at the airport.
He is truly a angel and I let him know that I will never forget his kindness and extra effort to help me. I have been having trouble sleeping because I am so stressed out. This town doesn’t have a train so getting to Dublin would have involved multiple forms of transport. I took a tour with my friend because I didn’t think it would be fun to travel alone and of course I end up alone sick in a foreign country for a week. I am feeling very lucky that I didn’t get very sick considering my age and medical conditions. Good thing I was vaccinated and boosted.
Having finally caught Covid now, I personally have no regrets about not getting vaccinated. My experience was pretty much identical to that of the triple-vaccinated people I know who have caught it. A couple of days pretty sick and mostly sleeping and reading in bed, and a week of chilling in my apartment with VERY mild symptoms (minor sniffle and fatigue) mostly reading on the couch while waiting to be 100% to return to work. I'm fine now and back to hiking, etc.
Interestingly, as far as I can tell I'm the last person in my social circle to get it. Being mildly antisocial seems to be the trick. The incubation math tells me I either caught it on a caving expedition or a ferry, both of which are extremely uncommon things for me to be doing.
Having finally caught Covid now, I personally have no regrets about not getting vaccinated. My experience was pretty much identical to that of the triple-vaccinated people I know who have caught it. A couple of days pretty sick and mostly sleeping and reading in bed, and a week of chilling in my apartment with VERY mild symptoms (minor sniffle and fatigue) mostly reading on the couch while waiting to be 100% to return to work. I'm fine now and back to hiking, etc.
Interestingly, as far as I can tell I'm the last person in my social circle to get it. Being mildly antisocial seems to be the trick. The incubation math tells me I either caught it on a caving expedition or a ferry, both of which are extremely uncommon things for me to be doing.
What about travel though? I know that you used to do a ton of that pre covid, no regrets for not being vaccinated to travel?
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted. We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless. And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout. We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out. We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later. Vaccines can SMD.
Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did? If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.
As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it. My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it. I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about). I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted. We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless. And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout. We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out. We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later. Vaccines can SMD.
Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did? If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.
As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it. My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it. I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about). I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.
Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.
...but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).
...but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).
Well, technically it seems like you can catch Omicron variants more than once. But there's also the possibility of you getting it but having little or no symptoms, in which case, it might not be able to mess up those plans!
But strong agree with you on vaccination. It prepares your body for a battle. You fight the battle and you're unhappy you were prepared? Gee next time run into battle naked... ? Why'd they make me put armor on when I still had to fight...
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted. We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless. And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout. We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out. We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later. Vaccines can SMD.
Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did? If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.
As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it. My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it. I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about). I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.
Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.
...It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal...
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted. We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless. And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout. We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out. We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later. Vaccines can SMD.
Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did? If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.
As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it. My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it. I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about). I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.
Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.
Covid is definitely not a death sentence. The majority of people will survive it without vaccination.
That said, using the latest Omicron data from March 2022 . . . your odds of dying from covid are roughly twenty times higher if you haven't been vaccinated and boosted. (It's about ten times higher compared to those who have been vaccinated and not boosted. - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-compare-covid-deaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-compare-covid-deaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/))
While vaccination doesn't provide perfect immunity from the disease, it significantly reduces your chances of dying and slightly reduces your chances of getting long covid. Claiming that the difference between vaccinated/boosted and unvaccinated is minimal is just flat out wrong.
...but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about).
Well, technically it seems like you can catch Omicron variants more than once. But there's also the possibility of you getting it but having little or no symptoms, in which case, it might not be able to mess up those plans!
But strong agree with you on vaccination. It prepares your body for a battle. You fight the battle and you're unhappy you were prepared? Gee next time run into battle naked... ? Why'd they make me put armor on when I still had to fight...
...It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal...
Citation needed. Data, please. Anecdotes not accepted.
For sure. Numerous studies show that Omicron is just as bad as earlier variants for the unvaccinated....It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal...
Citation needed. Data, please. Anecdotes not accepted.
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted. We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless. And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout. We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out. We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later. Vaccines can SMD.
Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did? If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.
As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it. My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it. I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about). I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.
Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.
Really poor form to insinuate my "I might have felt worse without the vaxx" was the same as saying this person would probably have died without the vaxx. Don't come trying to leverage my words on this warpath against vaccines that you are on. It's disingenuous. Make your own argument without taking my words out of context.
I guess if not dying is all you care about. Personally, the significant risk of long COVID and reduced overall lifespan due to poorer general health as a result of COVID is enough for me....It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal...
Citation needed. Data, please. Anecdotes not accepted.
Just been watching the 2 lines slowly merge together on these graphs.
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?We give credence to the flu vaccine the same way. No one has ever said it will stop you from getting the flu but it does significantly reduce your chances of severe illness. Yet there are still people who get the flu vaccine and will still get pretty sick.
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted. We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless. And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout. We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out. We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later. Vaccines can SMD.
Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did? If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.
As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it. My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it. I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about). I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.
Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.
Really poor form to insinuate my "I might have felt worse without the vaxx" was the same as saying this person would probably have died without the vaxx. Don't come trying to leverage my words on this warpath against vaccines that you are on. It's disingenuous. Make your own argument without taking my words out of context.
"Warpath" Do show your work.
I fully support anyone who chooses to get vaccinated or boosted.
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?
Just been watching the 2 lines slowly merge together on these graphs.
My wife and I are both double vaxxed and boosted. We both got COVID about 8wks ago nonetheless. And both of us are STILL dealing with the fallout. We both have fatigue and congestion and general malaise. If anybody approaches me with some BS requirement that we get boosted again I swear I'm gonna rip their eyeballs out. We did everything right and we are both suffering literally months later. Vaccines can SMD.
Wow, did someone tell you that being vaccinated would prevent you from catching it or from getting symptoms if you did? If so, I'm sorry someone spread misinformation to you and that you believed it. In your position, I'd be thinking about how grateful I am that I was vaxxed and boosted, thinking about how much worse I might have felt and still be feeling had I not gotten the three jabs.
As for me, I am starting to feel like one of the few people in the world that hasn't gotten it. My DH recovered about a week ago and a little part of me regrets working so hard to avoid it. I'm glad not to have to worry (yet) about long covid, but also disappointed that I have a high risk of losing out on any of various summer plans if (when?) I catch it at the wrong moment (which DH no longer needs to worry about). I'm being very vigilant, so life is actually less normal for me now than it was last summer, but I'm hoping to postpone the inevitable for at least a few more months.
Yep, you would have died like every person who hasn't gotten jabbed at will /s
I've heard so many people say how thankful they are about getting jabbed because their 3 week hospital stent would have been much worse without it. It's sad we have resorted to calling these vaccines and boosters effective when so many people have done their due diligence by getting the shot and are still getting sick for just as long as non-vaxxed people. Please stop saying things along the lines of "it could have been worse!" Maybe out of the gate, but with the current variants, the difference between vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal.
Really poor form to insinuate my "I might have felt worse without the vaxx" was the same as saying this person would probably have died without the vaxx. Don't come trying to leverage my words on this warpath against vaccines that you are on. It's disingenuous. Make your own argument without taking my words out of context.
"Warpath" Do show your work.
I fully support anyone who chooses to get vaccinated or boosted.
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?
Vaccines aren't as effective against current variants. Has anyone argued otherwise?
But to say the difference between "vaxxed/boosted and unvaxxed are minimal*" is incorrect. The data you cited to back up your conclusion shows the opposite, unless you consider 5x as many deaths "minimal".
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?
You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?
You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.
If I've said they're not worth taking, I apologize. That's not the argument I was trying to make. I'm just tired of people saying it would've been worse without the vaccine to people who were sick for multiple weeks.
Never in my life can I remember that being said for any other illness that has a vaccine.
If I've said they're not worth taking, I apologize. That's not the argument I was trying to make. I'm just tired of people saying it would've been worse without the vaccine to people who were sick for multiple weeks. Never in my life can I remember that being said for any other illness that has a vaccine.
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?
You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.
If I've said they're not worth taking, I apologize. That's not the argument I was trying to make. I'm just tired of people saying it would've been worse without the vaccine to people who were sick for multiple weeks. Never in my life can I remember that being said for any other illness that has a vaccine.
I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?
You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.
If I've said they're not worth taking, I apologize. That's not the argument I was trying to make. I'm just tired of people saying it would've been worse without the vaccine to people who were sick for multiple weeks. Never in my life can I remember that being said for any other illness that has a vaccine.
I actually agree with you on this... it seems like everyone who is vaccinated ends their caught covid story by saying they are so glad they had the vaccine because it would/could have been so much worse. It's probably some sort of fallacy that I don't feel like looking up
I actually agree with you on this... it seems like everyone who is vaccinated ends their caught covid story by saying they are so glad they had the vaccine because it would/could have been so much worse. It's probably some sort of fallacy that I don't feel like looking up
Just wanted to point out that this is misquoted. I did not say the above.I don't support the assumption that having the vaccine/booster made the situation better for someone who's been sick for 2+ weeks. Do we give credence to any other vaccine the same way? Why can't we say that the vaccine isn't as effective against the current variants?
You can say anything you want, people are just gonna ask you to defend your position. No one is arguing the point in bold. People ARE pushing back on you then submitting that this means that the vaccines aren't worth taking.
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?
If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?
My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not. Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
I just got my updated booster. The side effects were worse than the first three shots, but nothing compared to when I actually got covid. Seems to be little chance of avoiding it anymore without completely hiding in a cave, so I'll keep up to date on the shots to minimize the effects of the disease.
If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?
My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not. Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
Our life has been totally back to normal for months now. I am feeling ready to get the new booster but I had hives for three months after the last booster so my doctor said to wait a year-which would be in Nov. Not sure if I should go ahead now or not.
If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?
My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not. Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
The first answer here was just as true for vaccine based immunity as for infection based immunity.If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?
My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not. Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
You first...would it have been a bad idea to vaccinate them?
And we have no way of knowing what "just enough" means, so I can't see any reason why it would not be a good idea to vaccinate.
edited for typo
I just got my updated booster. The side effects were worse than the first three shots, but nothing compared to when I actually got covid. Seems to be little chance of avoiding it anymore without completely hiding in a cave, so I'll keep up to date on the shots to minimize the effects of the disease.
The first answer here was just as true for vaccine based immunity as for infection based immunity.If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?
My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not. Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
You first...would it have been a bad idea to vaccinate them?
And we have no way of knowing what "just enough" means, so I can't see any reason why it would not be a good idea to vaccinate.
edited for typo
And I did not say "just enough." I said "just had enough", which I had meant as "recently infected to the point of producing antibodies." That did not come across. So what would be the difference between two people that were "immunized" at the same time?
As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.
The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?
The first answer here was just as true for vaccine based immunity as for infection based immunity.If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?
My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not. Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
You first...would it have been a bad idea to vaccinate them?
And we have no way of knowing what "just enough" means, so I can't see any reason why it would not be a good idea to vaccinate.
edited for typo
And I did not say "just enough." I said "just had enough", which I had meant as "recently infected to the point of producing antibodies." That did not come across. So what would be the difference between two people that were "immunized" at the same time?
As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.
The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?
Seems pretty clear. The pharmaceutical companies are the ones benefiting from vaccinating people who don't need it. Individuals suffer from side effects of the vaccines like myocarditis. For Pfizer and Moderna, there's only upside to vaccinating as many men, women, children, and even babies, as humanly possible.
That's more "a breakdown in trust in public institutions" problem. Biggest example I can think of off the top of my head is "why should vaccine data be released in 75 years." That would make most people do a double take. (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/why-a-judge-ordered-fda-to-release-covid-19-vaccine-data-pronto)The first answer here was just as true for vaccine based immunity as for infection based immunity.If someone had just had enough of the virus to cause antibody production, would it have been a good idea to vaccinate them?If someone was already immune, why did they need the vaccine?
My understanding of immunity and infection is not that it's on/off, you have it/you don't. You can have more immunity or less, and also the amount of virus you pick up can depend on how sick you get or not. Also, of course, different sorts of immunity work better or worse for different variants.
You first...would it have been a bad idea to vaccinate them?
And we have no way of knowing what "just enough" means, so I can't see any reason why it would not be a good idea to vaccinate.
edited for typo
And I did not say "just enough." I said "just had enough", which I had meant as "recently infected to the point of producing antibodies." That did not come across. So what would be the difference between two people that were "immunized" at the same time?
As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.
The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?
Seems pretty clear. The pharmaceutical companies are the ones benefiting from vaccinating people who don't need it. Individuals suffer from side effects of the vaccines like myocarditis. For Pfizer and Moderna, there's only upside to vaccinating as many men, women, children, and even babies, as humanly possible.
It’s so interesting how many people are so willing to believe that public health initiatives are all about big pharma making a profit… but somehow remain completely blind to the fact that vaccine denial is a hugely profitable industry.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/12/993615185/for-some-anti-vaccine-advocates-misinformation-is-part-of-a-business
The pharmaceutical industry always has been sleazy af. Americans are some of the most highly medicated humans on Earth, and yet some of the sickest. Gee, wonder if there might be any connection there? Something like 3/4 of all Americans who die from drugs each year, die from pharmaceuticals legally prescribed and taken according to a doctor's instructions. Dealers of illegal drugs routinely get sentenced to decades in prison and have all of their assets confiscated by the government, yet, pharmaceutical executives, who kill 3x as many Americans, never even get arrested, let alone prosecuted and incarcerated. Right now, Pfizer and Moderna have vaccines that older Americans need to increase our chances of surviving covid, in the event that we get sick. That doesn't mean the pharmaceutical companies are suddenly all wonderful. There's a revolving door between the CDC, FDA, and for-profit pharmaceutical companies. So, it's not surprising, at all, that the FDA is claiming it'll take them 75 years to produce all of the documents they have related to the approval of Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine. They're covering for their friends still working in the industry. Gotta keep profits up, so they can all exercise their piles of stock options and become even more fabulously wealthy. We're still going to get a fifth vaccination for Covid sometime soon. Apparently, the shots work. No one in our family has gotten covid yet, as far as we know, anyway. Still not a fan of the pill pushers.
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.
It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."
I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.
What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.
It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."
I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.
What an incredibly bizarre post. Entertaining, though.
Let me put it this way, the "punk rock" person I was talking about has spent several years doing pot, cocaine, mushrooms, LSD and whatever drugs come out of some rando's fanny pack at concerts because "the government lies to people about how bad drugs are."What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.
It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."
I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.
What an incredibly bizarre post. Entertaining, though.
Yeah, it is bizarre. I think it is kind of revealing, though. I’ve noticed that a lot of anti-vaxxers/“skeptics” and Covid deniers have something in common with Q-anon people and frankly people who are prone to conspiracy theories in general. Namely, the sense of being in some sort of anti-establishment in-group that knows more/better than the mainstream “sheep” who are too blind to see what the cool rebels who think for themselves can.
It’s an attractive message that has been cynically used for political and economic gain a whole lot lately. Because it works really well on some people. People like to believe that they’re special. That they have some more acute insight that makes them stand out from others.
So, I guess what the poster is projecting is astonishment/mockery that the “liberals” he knows used to think they were all cool and anti-establishment, but now they are exposing themselves as phonies because they aren’t rejecting science, and they’re… buying merch at concerts.
Vaccine skepticism is the new “real” punk rock stance, is I guess what he’s trying to say.
Making a connection between rejecting mainstream music and rejecting scientific consensus on vaccine research is quite a leap, but that seems to be the gist of it.
Let me put it this way, the "punk rock" person I was talking about has spent several years doing pot, cocaine, mushrooms, LSD and whatever drugs come out of some rando's fanny pack at concerts because "the government lies to people about how bad drugs are."What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.
It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."
I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.
What an incredibly bizarre post. Entertaining, though.
Yeah, it is bizarre. I think it is kind of revealing, though. I’ve noticed that a lot of anti-vaxxers/“skeptics” and Covid deniers have something in common with Q-anon people and frankly people who are prone to conspiracy theories in general. Namely, the sense of being in some sort of anti-establishment in-group that knows more/better than the mainstream “sheep” who are too blind to see what the cool rebels who think for themselves can.
It’s an attractive message that has been cynically used for political and economic gain a whole lot lately. Because it works really well on some people. People like to believe that they’re special. That they have some more acute insight that makes them stand out from others.
So, I guess what the poster is projecting is astonishment/mockery that the “liberals” he knows used to think they were all cool and anti-establishment, but now they are exposing themselves as phonies because they aren’t rejecting science, and they’re… buying merch at concerts.
Vaccine skepticism is the new “real” punk rock stance, is I guess what he’s trying to say.
Making a connection between rejecting mainstream music and rejecting scientific consensus on vaccine research is quite a leap, but that seems to be the gist of it.
One would expect that same skepticism to be applied to vaccines. Unfortunately no.
It is several people's faulty reasoning , not just his. I felt like I had to explain the "punk rock" aspect of my post. Most everyone else's failures at COVID have been "appeal to authority." And even as those authorities have been proven wrong (remember when vaccines prevented transmission) they have not reassessed.Let me put it this way, the "punk rock" person I was talking about has spent several years doing pot, cocaine, mushrooms, LSD and whatever drugs come out of some rando's fanny pack at concerts because "the government lies to people about how bad drugs are."What does being a “cool rebel” have to do with the science on vaccines? That seems like a pretty juvenile stance to take.Lamenting the state of liberalism. That for eighteen years I heard the cry of "Rage Against The Machine" and had people wallow in Marilyn Manson's iconoclastic showmanship. Then these same people were the first to call me "sheep" and say "you can't possibly be this stupid" when being skeptical of the COVID vaccines. They lacked any kind of intellectual curiosity regarding COVID. The... Passivity of liberals when presented with COVID was disturbing.
It was not about being a "cool rebel" as much as "those attitudes evaporated in the blink of an eye." In the end, their philosophy had been boiled down to empty consumerism. You were "punk rock" because you went to concerts and bought merch, not because you had certain ideals or principles. Fighting for those is difficult. Much better to shut your brain off and "let the experts take care of everything."
I have simply realized that certain friends of mine are damned and nothing is to be done to save their minds.
What an incredibly bizarre post. Entertaining, though.
Yeah, it is bizarre. I think it is kind of revealing, though. I’ve noticed that a lot of anti-vaxxers/“skeptics” and Covid deniers have something in common with Q-anon people and frankly people who are prone to conspiracy theories in general. Namely, the sense of being in some sort of anti-establishment in-group that knows more/better than the mainstream “sheep” who are too blind to see what the cool rebels who think for themselves can.
It’s an attractive message that has been cynically used for political and economic gain a whole lot lately. Because it works really well on some people. People like to believe that they’re special. That they have some more acute insight that makes them stand out from others.
So, I guess what the poster is projecting is astonishment/mockery that the “liberals” he knows used to think they were all cool and anti-establishment, but now they are exposing themselves as phonies because they aren’t rejecting science, and they’re… buying merch at concerts.
Vaccine skepticism is the new “real” punk rock stance, is I guess what he’s trying to say.
Making a connection between rejecting mainstream music and rejecting scientific consensus on vaccine research is quite a leap, but that seems to be the gist of it.
One would expect that same skepticism to be applied to vaccines. Unfortunately no.
I mean, arguably the most punk-rock thing one can do is to flame out quickly and die of a heroin overdose in your twenties. But I’m guessing the connection between denying Covid science and dying an early, preventable death is unintentional.
But also… dude, you are advancing a whole straw man “liberal” philosophy based on literally one person’s faulty reasoning? You are advancing the same “the government lies to people” reasoning as your thought process?
I mean… really?
Oh we’re doing this again?
Oh we’re doing this again?
I guess so. Perpetually.
Oh we’re doing this again?
I guess so. Perpetually.
Groooaaannn.
What exactly do you believe is "conspiracy-laden and inaccurate?" The for-profit medical industry in the US has a fundamental conflict of interest. The more 'healthcare' patients receive, the more money the industry makes, but higher levels of healthcare don't necessarily correlate with better health outcomes. See, Less Medicine, More Health (https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/22544772-less-medicine-more-health), by Dr. H. Gilbert Welch.The pharmaceutical industry always has been sleazy af. Americans are some of the most highly medicated humans on Earth, and yet some of the sickest. Gee, wonder if there might be any connection there? Something like 3/4 of all Americans who die from drugs each year, die from pharmaceuticals legally prescribed and taken according to a doctor's instructions. Dealers of illegal drugs routinely get sentenced to decades in prison and have all of their assets confiscated by the government, yet, pharmaceutical executives, who kill 3x as many Americans, never even get arrested, let alone prosecuted and incarcerated. Right now, Pfizer and Moderna have vaccines that older Americans need to increase our chances of surviving covid, in the event that we get sick. That doesn't mean the pharmaceutical companies are suddenly all wonderful. There's a revolving door between the CDC, FDA, and for-profit pharmaceutical companies. So, it's not surprising, at all, that the FDA is claiming it'll take them 75 years to produce all of the documents they have related to the approval of Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine. They're covering for their friends still working in the industry. Gotta keep profits up, so they can all exercise their piles of stock options and become even more fabulously wealthy. We're still going to get a fifth vaccination for Covid sometime soon. Apparently, the shots work. No one in our family has gotten covid yet, as far as we know, anyway. Still not a fan of the pill pushers.
Conflating medical science, the pharmaceutical industry, and the for-profit American health insurance industry is facile, but inaccurate. And unfortunately, it is the source of a ton of (often highly profitable) misinformation and even disinformation.
At the expense of our public health, unfortunately.
There is a heck of a lot of slippage in your post from one area to another, conflating a ton of separate issues into one big, messy bag. Again, facile, but conspiracy-laden and inaccurate.
That's more "a breakdown in trust in public institutions" problem. Biggest example I can think of off the top of my head is "why should vaccine data be released in 75 years." That would make most people do a double take. (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/why-a-judge-ordered-fda-to-release-covid-19-vaccine-data-pronto)
Oh we’re doing this again?No? August 2022 CDC guidelines says unvaccinated and vaccinated have the same guidelines. There isn't really a reason to rehash it since I have no interest in getting vaccinated.
Although I had been curious on what justifications there are for vaccine mandates since natural immunity is a thing now, at least according to the CDC.
As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.
The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?
In a detailed analysis of nearly 43 million people, the risk of myocarditis in unvaccinated individuals after COVID-19 infection was at least 11 times higher compared to people who developed myocarditis after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine or booster dose, according to new research published today in the American Heart Association’s flagship, peer-reviewed journal Circulationhttps://newsroom.heart.org/news/myocarditis-risk-significantly-higher-after-covid-19-infection-vs-after-a-covid-19-vaccine
Best of luck on the journey of discovery to find the answer for that.That's more "a breakdown in trust in public institutions" problem. Biggest example I can think of off the top of my head is "why should vaccine data be released in 75 years." That would make most people do a double take. (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/why-a-judge-ordered-fda-to-release-covid-19-vaccine-data-pronto)
I came across this comment and don't think it got enough consideration in the discussion.
Pharmaceutical companies and the for profit medical industry in the US both have a bad name . . . largely because they've proven themselves unworthy of public trust multiple times in the past. Government agencies do not have a similar past.
In light of that, I don't personally think that the FDA is involved in a conspiracy with big pharma to hide the results of the covid vaccinations. Despite not thinking there's a conspiracy here, I'd really like to see a release of the vaccine data to independent scientists. While there are a few reasons why the data release may be slowed by a few months, or even a year . . . it's hard to see the 75 year proposed release date as reasonable in any way. Even as someone who doesn't believe that this is a clear indication of guilt, I have to admit that it's weird.
If government organizations act in more transparent ways, it would go a long way towards taking the wind out of the sails of conspiracy theorists and help rebuild trust among the people.
That's more "a breakdown in trust in public institutions" problem. Biggest example I can think of off the top of my head is "why should vaccine data be released in 75 years." That would make most people do a double take. (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/why-a-judge-ordered-fda-to-release-covid-19-vaccine-data-pronto)
I came across this comment and don't think it got enough consideration in the discussion.
Pharmaceutical companies and the for profit medical industry in the US both have a bad name . . . largely because they've proven themselves unworthy of public trust multiple times in the past. Government agencies do not have a similar past.
In light of that, I don't personally think that the FDA is involved in a conspiracy with big pharma to hide the results of the covid vaccinations. Despite not thinking there's a conspiracy here, I'd really like to see a release of the vaccine data to independent scientists. While there are a few reasons why the data release may be slowed by a few months, or even a year . . . it's hard to see the 75 year proposed release date as reasonable in any way. Even as someone who doesn't believe that this is a clear indication of guilt, I have to admit that it's weird.
If government organizations act in more transparent ways, it would go a long way towards taking the wind out of the sails of conspiracy theorists and help rebuild trust among the people.
during the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots." Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots." Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?
during the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots." Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots." Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?
Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different waysduring the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots." Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots." Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?
This is not a remotely fringe argument. That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654)
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502 (https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext)
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039)
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309 (https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309)
etc.
As for "why not vaccinate them" safety issues come to mind.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7103a4.htm
CDC still doesn't recommend the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because of clotting issues.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html
And myocarditis is also a problem in younger men.
The better question is "why risk healthy people who already have the immunity we want?" Who does that help?
Responding to the above, this may have been posted before but it bears repeating:QuoteIn a detailed analysis of nearly 43 million people, the risk of myocarditis in unvaccinated individuals after COVID-19 infection was at least 11 times higher compared to people who developed myocarditis after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine or booster dose, according to new research published today in the American Heart Association’s flagship, peer-reviewed journal Circulationhttps://newsroom.heart.org/news/myocarditis-risk-significantly-higher-after-covid-19-infection-vs-after-a-covid-19-vaccine
Anecdotally from living in an area that was hit hard in spring of 2020 by Covid, I personally knew several people who suffered heart attacks, strokes, and embolisms after catching Covid, before the vaccine was available, and there was also a surge of people who died suddenly that spring but we don't know their covid status because tests were so hard to find then.
Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different waysduring the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots." Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots." Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?
This is not a remotely fringe argument. That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654)
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502 (https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext)
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039)
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309 (https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309)
etc.
Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different waysduring the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots." Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots." Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?
This is not a remotely fringe argument. That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654)
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502 (https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext)
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039)
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309 (https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309)
etc.
Can you clarify what you mean by your comment?
Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different waysduring the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots." Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots." Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?
This is not a remotely fringe argument. That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654)
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502 (https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext)
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039)
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309 (https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309)
etc.
I mean, I know how to define science... I wonder what sailinlight does for a living tho...Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different waysduring the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots." Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots." Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?
This is not a remotely fringe argument. That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654)
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502 (https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext)
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039)
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309 (https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309)
etc.
What the everliving fuck are you babbling about? What is even happening on this thread right now? Are we letting flat earthers in, too?
I mean, I know how to define science... I wonder what sailinlight does for a living tho...Thanks, good to read those. I guess some people define science in different waysduring the worst moments I never once thought, "I'm so pissed that I wasted my time getting those useless vaccine shots." Instead, over and over again I thought, "Thank God I got those vaccine shots." Because my understanding is the most credible data we have is that vaccination reduces risk of death if you contract Covid.I find that interesting, could you share some data you read that would corroborate that?
This is not a remotely fringe argument. That's exactly what the data has shown in study after study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35302230/)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795654)
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502 (https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071502)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2795326)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00141-4/fulltext)
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2786039)
https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309 (https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.220309)
etc.
What the everliving fuck are you babbling about? What is even happening on this thread right now? Are we letting flat earthers in, too?
Speaking of the ongoing pandemic . .
I went to a garden club meeting the other night, where they required masks, took attendance for members and got names and emails of visitors, for notification purposes. They asked anyone with Covid symptoms in the next 5 days to please notify the executive. A few meetings of other garden clubs ended up being spreader events. The executive of this club decided to be proactive. And yes everyone wore masks.
Speaking of the ongoing pandemic . .
I went to a garden club meeting the other night, where they required masks, took attendance for members and got names and emails of visitors, for notification purposes. They asked anyone with Covid symptoms in the next 5 days to please notify the executive. A few meetings of other garden clubs ended up being spreader events. The executive of this club decided to be proactive. And yes everyone wore masks.
Wearing a mask in the grocery store is not inconvenient, but not eating indoors at a restaurant would be inconvenient as the cooler months approach.
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
CVOID is now the flu. It's not going away and it's going to constantly mutate making vaccines only a partial solution. Even if most people get an annual COVID shot along with a flu shot, it's not going to stop spreading.
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
CVOID is now the flu. It's not going away and it's going to constantly mutate making vaccines only a partial solution. Even if most people get an annual COVID shot along with a flu shot, it's not going to stop spreading.
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
CVOID is now the flu. It's not going away and it's going to constantly mutate making vaccines only a partial solution. Even if most people get an annual COVID shot along with a flu shot, it's not going to stop spreading.
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
Pretty much agree with this. I will continue wearing my mask depending on:
1) Requirements. A COVID breakout in an orchestra can lead to fully cancelling a show, which is not great, so some orchestras are still requiring masks backstage.
2) How recently I've had a booster (whether literal vaccine booster or natural immunity from an infection)
3) If there's a wave from a new variant.
This level of caution is only because I'm a freelancer, so catching COVID could mean a significant loss of income. If I had paid sick leave I'd be much less concerned about getting sick. Even if I had paid sick leave, I would probably still be about this cautious indefinitely if I were older or had other risk factors.
I had omicron in July and stopped wearing a mask after that.Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
I think that I'm about to give up on mask wearing actually.
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point ...?
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
I think that I'm about to give up on mask wearing actually.
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
I think that I'm about to give up on mask wearing actually.
Haven't masked since last January I believe except when asked. Still haven't had COVID as far as I know. It will happen eventually, and I'm not looking forward to it.
I saw a story about who should get the new booster and it said that for healthy individuals under 50, we have reached the point where the additional booster is just as risky as getting covid. This gave me pause since I had such an awful reaction to the last booster. I will likely still get the booster in late November (one year after my last) to hopefully help protect relatives we will gather with for the Holidays.
Do you have a link for that? I have not seen any data saying this.Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
I think that I'm about to give up on mask wearing actually.
Haven't masked since last January I believe except when asked. Still haven't had COVID as far as I know. It will happen eventually, and I'm not looking forward to it.
I saw a story about who should get the new booster and it said that for healthy individuals under 50, we have reached the point where the additional booster is just as risky as getting covid. This gave me pause since I had such an awful reaction to the last booster. I will likely still get the booster in late November (one year after my last) to hopefully help protect relatives we will gather with for the Holidays.
CVOID is now the flu. It's not going away and it's going to constantly mutate making vaccines only a partial solution. Even if most people get an annual COVID shot along with a flu shot, it's not going to stop spreading.
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
CVOID is now the flu. It's not going away and it's going to constantly mutate making vaccines only a partial solution. Even if most people get an annual COVID shot along with a flu shot, it's not going to stop spreading.
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
I live with my wife and two kids. We try to follow the CDC guidelines as much as possible which currently includes isolating for five days if you catch COVID. It means if someone in your family is positive everyone else needs to test to see whether they should go around to other planned activities such as school, or find other options. That's mighty inconvenient! My wife caught it a couple weeks ago and I successfully avoided it, but I had to sleep in the basement and do a bit more child care than usual. It's not a fun illness. I've had it once before and would prefer to minimize the number of times I catch it.
The prior idea of wearing masks to protect others has fallen by the wayside. Now it's solely on the individual to take measures to avoid infection if that's something that matters to them. For my part I do mask up when I go to a crowded public space such as a grocery store or airport, where doing so doesn't really affect my ability to do anything I want to do there. For something like sports where I really need full air flow, or a party where it's important to talk to people, I'll go mask-free if healthy. I've recently started carrying a CO2 monitor sometimes to get an idea of how fresh the air is in a place I visit. The higher the CO2 level, the more of other people's exhaled air you're breathing in, and the more viruses that potentially go along with that exhaled air. If it's pretty close to outdoor levels I feel extremely comfortable going without a mask even if the place is pretty crowded.
I expect that I'll always wear a mask if I have respiratory symptoms, because breathing viruses on other people is just rude.
Interesting. Have you found differences in CO2 levels? And if so, what were the worst places for high CO2 and how big were the differences?
Seattlecyclone, Could you provide a link for purchasing your portable CO2 monitor, or is it something related to your work?
CVOID is now the flu. It's not going away and it's going to constantly mutate making vaccines only a partial solution. Even if most people get an annual COVID shot along with a flu shot, it's not going to stop spreading.
Are those of you masking planning to do so indefinitely? What is the end point when basically everyone has either been vaccinated or infected (or both in many cases)?
I actually do think that I will continue to wear a mask indoors indefinitely. I'm old enough to be higher risk, and frankly - I just don't like getting sick. Why should I waste a week on a cold or the flu or Covid? It's not just about death....
I actually do think that I will continue to wear a mask indoors indefinitely. I'm old enough to be higher risk, and frankly - I just don't like getting sick. Why should I waste a week on a cold or the flu or Covid? It's not just about death....
One potential reason not to - Does the adult immune system require regular exposure to germs to maintain good working function? I know that there's been a fair bit of research into children's need for exposure to stuff to learn how to handle disease but am unclear about the need for adults. Seems reasonable to assume that very strict avoidance of regular germs/disease for an extended time could actually negatively impact health in the long term.
I actually do think that I will continue to wear a mask indoors indefinitely. I'm old enough to be higher risk, and frankly - I just don't like getting sick. Why should I waste a week on a cold or the flu or Covid? It's not just about death....
One potential reason not to - Does the adult immune system require regular exposure to germs to maintain good working function? I know that there's been a fair bit of research into children's need for exposure to stuff to learn how to handle disease but am unclear about the need for adults. Seems reasonable to assume that very strict avoidance of regular germs/disease for an extended time could actually negatively impact health in the long term.
Also, the cost to society of large numbers of people intentionally masking their facial expressions is not zero.
I actually do think that I will continue to wear a mask indoors indefinitely. I'm old enough to be higher risk, and frankly - I just don't like getting sick. Why should I waste a week on a cold or the flu or Covid? It's not just about death....
One potential reason not to - Does the adult immune system require regular exposure to germs to maintain good working function? I know that there's been a fair bit of research into children's need for exposure to stuff to learn how to handle disease but am unclear about the need for adults. Seems reasonable to assume that very strict avoidance of regular germs/disease for an extended time could actually negatively impact health in the long term.
Also, the cost to society of large numbers of people intentionally masking their facial expressions is not zero.
I dunno about that. You can see an awful lot of a person's facial expressions even when they're wearing a mask. Aside from maybe needing to ask for clarification if you can't hear something that's a little muffled . . . what is the societal cost?
I actually do think that I will continue to wear a mask indoors indefinitely. I'm old enough to be higher risk, and frankly - I just don't like getting sick. Why should I waste a week on a cold or the flu or Covid? It's not just about death....
One potential reason not to - Does the adult immune system require regular exposure to germs to maintain good working function? I know that there's been a fair bit of research into children's need for exposure to stuff to learn how to handle disease but am unclear about the need for adults. Seems reasonable to assume that very strict avoidance of regular germs/disease for an extended time could actually negatively impact health in the long term.
Also, the cost to society of large numbers of people intentionally masking their facial expressions is not zero.
I dunno about that. You can see an awful lot of a person's facial expressions even when they're wearing a mask. Aside from maybe needing to ask for clarification if you can't hear something that's a little muffled . . . what is the societal cost?
Maybe you're better at deciphering masked people's facial expressions than I am, but I often struggle with knowing whether a masked person is trying to be funny, or ironic, or is angry, or whatever. The societal cost, though, is, I think, mostly borne by children. The way kids learn to interpret the world is by observing adults' reactions, and facial expressions are a big part of that. Not knowing, for sure, what the proper response to an individual or an event should be, kids look to their parents or other adult caregivers to help them understand whether they should be in fight or flight mode, or if someone/something is completely safe, and it's okay for them to let their guard down and relax. I'm just guessing, but it's hard to imagine that not being able to fully see adults' facial expressions will in any way help to alleviate already sky-high rates of anxiety and depression, especially among young people growing up during Covid Times.
I actually do think that I will continue to wear a mask indoors indefinitely. I'm old enough to be higher risk, and frankly - I just don't like getting sick. Why should I waste a week on a cold or the flu or Covid? It's not just about death....
One potential reason not to - Does the adult immune system require regular exposure to germs to maintain good working function? I know that there's been a fair bit of research into children's need for exposure to stuff to learn how to handle disease but am unclear about the need for adults. Seems reasonable to assume that very strict avoidance of regular germs/disease for an extended time could actually negatively impact health in the long term.
Also, the cost to society of large numbers of people intentionally masking their facial expressions is not zero.
I dunno about that. You can see an awful lot of a person's facial expressions even when they're wearing a mask. Aside from maybe needing to ask for clarification if you can't hear something that's a little muffled . . . what is the societal cost?
Maybe you're better at deciphering masked people's facial expressions than I am, but I often struggle with knowing whether a masked person is trying to be funny, or ironic, or is angry, or whatever. The societal cost, though, is, I think, mostly borne by children. The way kids learn to interpret the world is by observing adults' reactions, and facial expressions are a big part of that. Not knowing, for sure, what the proper response to an individual or an event should be, kids look to their parents or other adult caregivers to help them understand whether they should be in fight or flight mode, or if someone/something is completely safe, and it's okay for them to let their guard down and relax. I'm just guessing, but it's hard to imagine that not being able to fully see adults' facial expressions will in any way help to alleviate already sky-high rates of anxiety and depression, especially among young people growing up during Covid Times.
I actually do think that I will continue to wear a mask indoors indefinitely. I'm old enough to be higher risk, and frankly - I just don't like getting sick. Why should I waste a week on a cold or the flu or Covid? It's not just about death....
One potential reason not to - Does the adult immune system require regular exposure to germs to maintain good working function? I know that there's been a fair bit of research into children's need for exposure to stuff to learn how to handle disease but am unclear about the need for adults. Seems reasonable to assume that very strict avoidance of regular germs/disease for an extended time could actually negatively impact health in the long term.
And I've been surprised at how easy it has been to "read" people when they are masked. I don't think little kids have much problem with it, either, though I'm sure that there's some variation.
How do kids do with that in societies where women traditionally cover their faces?
There are new subvariants developing that are more likely to escape immunity from either prior infection or vaccination, according to recent CBC article.One of my friends hasn't had COVID yet. She kind of rolls her eyes when we talk about it - she takes a lot of herbal things (is also vaccinated), but doesn't think it's a big deal.
I recently got my 2nd booster, the bivalent shot, and plan to keep up on them as new ones emerge.
I also wear masks everywhere and plan to continue doing that too. I'm not afraid of the immediate symptoms of Covid, but of the long term, unpredictable conditions that can develop. Why risk future illness/disability when a simple mask could possibly prevent them?
@Just Joe I don't understand - your wife has COVID and you feel off, but you still went in to your office?? Ventilation systems as we've learned aren't great, so if you aren't wearing an N95 all the time (sounds like no mask unless someone stops by) you could still be passing it on to others, particularly as you haven't tested yourself yet.
I didn't get a positive test until the day I could add "fever" to the list of symptoms - otherwise started a lot like yours. 2-3 days after an exposure a cough that wasn't too bad but didn't go away, then 2 days after that I was sick. Actually tested negative in the morning - wasn't feeling well so figured I'd check before visiting with family (day before we were supposed to fly back home). Then still not feeling well so took temp and had a low fever. Then a clearly positive covid test.@Just Joe I don't understand - your wife has COVID and you feel off, but you still went in to your office?? Ventilation systems as we've learned aren't great, so if you aren't wearing an N95 all the time (sounds like no mask unless someone stops by) you could still be passing it on to others, particularly as you haven't tested yourself yet.
My employer told me I needed to be there so I self isolated myself in my office and I left home a couple hours early.
Am home today. Symptoms are similar. Pretty mild - sore throat and an occasional cough. Will test late this afternoon.
I have something, not sure if COVID. Likely COVID but I've had these kinds of symptoms most years even before COVID aka a mild cold...
How do the people with dogs deal with walking them so they can relieve themselves?
How do the people with dogs deal with walking them so they can relieve themselves?
https://www.wionews.com/world/watch-bags-full-of-cats-and-dogs-seen-in-china-as-authorities-kill-pets-of-covid-positive-owners-472239 (https://www.wionews.com/world/watch-bags-full-of-cats-and-dogs-seen-in-china-as-authorities-kill-pets-of-covid-positive-owners-472239)
I saw a guy at Costco the other day wearing a full gas mask. Completely covering his face with respirators built-in - just like the kind I'm issued in the Army.
He looked to be in his 30s and in reasonably good health (i.e. not morbidly obese). Maybe he's severely immune compromised and can't get vaccinated but in a place like Costco where the aisles are 10 feet wide and it's a 150,000 square foot warehouse it's not exactly high risk for catching COVID. I wanted to take a picture because it just seems so absurd at this point.
I saw a guy at Costco the other day wearing a full gas mask. Completely covering his face with respirators built-in - just like the kind I'm issued in the Army.Or he is shitposting in real life. I was tempted to dress like this (see attachment). Knew someone that grabbed a respirator (for body shop work) who just wanted to mock people.
He looked to be in his 30s and in reasonably good health (i.e. not morbidly obese). Maybe he's severely immune compromised and can't get vaccinated but in a place like Costco where the aisles are 10 feet wide and it's a 150,000 square foot warehouse it's not exactly high risk for catching COVID. I wanted to take a picture because it just seems so absurd at this point.
How do the people with dogs deal with walking them so they can relieve themselves?
https://www.wionews.com/world/watch-bags-full-of-cats-and-dogs-seen-in-china-as-authorities-kill-pets-of-covid-positive-owners-472239 (https://www.wionews.com/world/watch-bags-full-of-cats-and-dogs-seen-in-china-as-authorities-kill-pets-of-covid-positive-owners-472239)
I saw a guy at Costco the other day wearing a full gas mask. Completely covering his face with respirators built-in - just like the kind I'm issued in the Army.
He looked to be in his 30s and in reasonably good health (i.e. not morbidly obese). Maybe he's severely immune compromised and can't get vaccinated but in a place like Costco where the aisles are 10 feet wide and it's a 150,000 square foot warehouse it's not exactly high risk for catching COVID. I wanted to take a picture because it just seems so absurd at this point.
I saw a guy at Costco the other day wearing a full gas mask. Completely covering his face with respirators built-in - just like the kind I'm issued in the Army.
He looked to be in his 30s and in reasonably good health (i.e. not morbidly obese). Maybe he's severely immune compromised and can't get vaccinated but in a place like Costco where the aisles are 10 feet wide and it's a 150,000 square foot warehouse it's not exactly high risk for catching COVID. I wanted to take a picture because it just seems so absurd at this point.
I see people walking on empty sidewalks masked and today - someone driving alone in a car all masked up. Whatever floats their boat.
I saw a guy at Costco the other day wearing a full gas mask. Completely covering his face with respirators built-in - just like the kind I'm issued in the Army.
He looked to be in his 30s and in reasonably good health (i.e. not morbidly obese). Maybe he's severely immune compromised and can't get vaccinated but in a place like Costco where the aisles are 10 feet wide and it's a 150,000 square foot warehouse it's not exactly high risk for catching COVID. I wanted to take a picture because it just seems so absurd at this point.
I see people walking on empty sidewalks masked and today - someone driving alone in a car all masked up. Whatever floats their boat.
I've driven in my car masked several times because I've forgotten that I even have it on.
Yeah, maybe he was just being juvenile to make a "point."He took mask wearing and made it a farce. I have to respect the man for his dedication to the bit.
Whatever the reason, though, he wasn't hurting anyone. There's no reason not to just let people do what they want as long as it's not against the law.
I can't wait to take the darn thing off. Whiskers will do that with a mask.
Yeah, maybe he was just being juvenile to make a "point."He took mask wearing and made it a farce. I have to respect the man for his dedication to the bit.
Whatever the reason, though, he wasn't hurting anyone. There's no reason not to just let people do what they want as long as it's not against the law.
The last two comments above are just so emblematic of the two “sides” and their level of argument on Covid.
How convenient they can just blame everything now on "long Covid"
Being female , old , fat, having lung disease, and having allergies all appear to be correlated with getting long covid.
exercise testing 1 year out was significantly diminished in about 50% of patients who had cardiac symptoms from COVID infection
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.
Why are you choosing not to wear an N95? They're cheap, readily available, and reduce transmission of disease.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.
Why are you choosing not to wear an N95? They're cheap, readily available, and reduce transmission of disease.
N95 masks need to be properly fitted. The majority of them don't work either.
why does this thread keep getting resurrected? i love this forum but cringe every time i see this thread at the top of the page. can it be moved to off topic??Because someone decided to turn Off-Topic into a hugbox.
Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work? That's what I'm talking about. People put these policies in place without discussing downsides. These things did damage and saying "we just asked you to wear a mask" misses the point completely.https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
why does this thread keep getting resurrected? i love this forum but cringe every time i see this thread at the top of the page. can it be moved to off topic??Because someone decided to turn Off-Topic into a hugbox.Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work? That's what I'm talking about. People put these policies in place without discussing downsides. These things did damage and saying "we just asked you to wear a mask" misses the point completely.https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
why does this thread keep getting resurrected? i love this forum but cringe every time i see this thread at the top of the page. can it be moved to off topic??Because someone decided to turn Off-Topic into a hugbox.Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work? That's what I'm talking about. People put these policies in place without discussing downsides. These things did damage and saying "we just asked you to wear a mask" misses the point completely.https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
I don't believe you. I heard tons of people discussing both potential and realized downsides both in my personal life and on the TV and internets.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
The same masks that literally say on the box "don't protect against Covid" and do nothing? Yep I am mad about that bs.
Why are you choosing not to wear an N95? They're cheap, readily available, and reduce transmission of disease.
N95 masks need to be properly fitted. The majority of them don't work either.
Where did you hear that the majority of N95 masks don't work?
If you aren't fitted for an N95 and thus don't wear it properly it doesn't work. That's not an opinion.
Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work?
If you aren't fitted for an N95 and thus don't wear it properly it doesn't work. That's not an opinion.
N95 masks need to be properly fitted. The majority of them don't work either.
Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work?
There are a variety of reasons. Many parents were panicked and uncertain about the future, which certainly impacted their kids. Lots of people lost their jobs. Many schools that weren't ready to do distance learning tried to implement it on a very short timeline (and did so poorly). Special educators services tended to be a lot harder to get. There's some evidence that exposure to covid has negative impacts reasoning skills of a certain percentage of people. This list goes on and on.
Did covid restrictions play a part of that? I suspect so. But if you look at test score drops there doesn't seem to be a particularly clear pattern: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2022-10-26/states-with-the-largest-drops-in-reading-math-test-scores (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2022-10-26/states-with-the-largest-drops-in-reading-math-test-scores).
California and Vermont both had pretty significant covid restrictions and had better test score results than Florida, Texas, and Alaska which were much less restrictive. Alabama was middle of the pack for covid restrictions, and their test scores actually improved overall.
I was taking issue with their argument "we didn't have any lockdowns, therefore there cannot be any repercussions from the lockdowns that didn't happen. Anyone that believed lockdowns happened was clearly hallucinating."
The math thing was just the example I could remember off the top of my head.why does this thread keep getting resurrected? i love this forum but cringe every time i see this thread at the top of the page. can it be moved to off topic??Because someone decided to turn Off-Topic into a hugbox.Then why did math scores across America fall, wiping out decades of work? That's what I'm talking about. People put these policies in place without discussing downsides. These things did damage and saying "we just asked you to wear a mask" misses the point completely.https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
What is everyone's opinion on a COVID amnesty?
Personally I'm a hard no because too many people gleefully loosed their authoritarian streak on their fellow citizens. I think we need to remember what these people would do if given free reign.
And everyone I tried to warn about lockdown consequences rolled their eyes in hubris. Now I can't trust their judgement.
I don't think I'm the one with something to prove here.
I might have Covid brain fog, because I don't remember any nation wide lock downs at all. We didn't have any local lock downs either.
So when I hear you talk about "authoritarian streaks," what I hear is you over flowing with hatred towards your fellow citizens who asked you to throw on a mask when entering a crowded public space.
I don't believe you. I heard tons of people discussing both potential and realized downsides both in my personal life and on the TV and internets.
Mind you, the opposite side of the discussion wasn't very clean as well. The phrase "we're all in this together" whilst making policy that adversely affected some individuals but benefited others was/is a real grievance and in general discounted by those that it didn't affect (which is the point that I do agree with Cawl here).
The woman that wrote the article experienced this first hand when she changed her mind about lockdowns.
"We need to forgive the attacks, too. Because I thought schools should reopen and argued that kids as a group were not at high risk, I was called a “teacher killer” and a “génocidaire.” It wasn’t pleasant, but feelings were high. And I certainly don’t need to dissect and rehash that time for the rest of my days."
Just as an example.
I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."
Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.
From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.
When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.
When policy makers are faced with a novel disease with uncertain effects they employ something called the "precautionary principle". They have to make decisions based on limited information ("uncertainty") where outcomes either way are likely to be irreversible. In the case of covid precautions mask wearing has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability while having limited and largely reversible downsides. Requiring potential super-spreader events to stop for a certain period again has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability but has significant potential downsides to social interactions (mostly not too bad if for a limited period) and economic activity (dealt with, atlhough not particularly well, by monetary interventions from governments). Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved, so a calculation that this was worth trying at the time is one governments could reasonably make.I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."
Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.
From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.
When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.
And I don't think China's "Zero COVID Policy" is about COVID. But that would be more of a conspiracy theory than actual facts.
Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved
Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved
No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.
Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved
No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.
See New Zealand.Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved
No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.
Yeah, no. If the above were even remotely true, China would be covid free by now.
A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway. North Americans living a sedentary, car-based lifestyle, eating predominantly heavily processed fast foods, are uniquely situated to become victims of any novel disease that comes along. Pretty sure covid is playing out exactly as Darwin would've predicted. It's culling the herd of the weaker, sicker humans.
See New Zealand.Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved
No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.
Yeah, no. If the above were even remotely true, China would be covid free by now.
A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway. North Americans living a sedentary, car-based lifestyle, eating predominantly heavily processed fast foods, are uniquely situated to become victims of any novel disease that comes along. Pretty sure covid is playing out exactly as Darwin would've predicted. It's culling the herd of the weaker, sicker humans.
A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway.
See New Zealand.Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved
No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.
Yeah, no. If the above were even remotely true, China would be covid free by now.
A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway. North Americans living a sedentary, car-based lifestyle, eating predominantly heavily processed fast foods, are uniquely situated to become victims of any novel disease that comes along. Pretty sure covid is playing out exactly as Darwin would've predicted. It's culling the herd of the weaker, sicker humans.
What's possible in a tiny, island country like NZ, with a population of only 5MM, is NOT possible in a huge country like China, with a population of >1.4BB. That's why we're challenging your statement above, "Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether" No, they couldn't have.
I've heard the estimate that by the time the lockdowns were initiated in America 3-4% of the population had been exposed to COVID, making control of it impossible.When policy makers are faced with a novel disease with uncertain effects they employ something called the "precautionary principle". They have to make decisions based on limited information ("uncertainty") where outcomes either way are likely to be irreversible. In the case of covid precautions mask wearing has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability while having limited and largely reversible downsides. Requiring potential super-spreader events to stop for a certain period again has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability but has significant potential downsides to social interactions (mostly not too bad if for a limited period) and economic activity (dealt with, atlhough not particularly well, by monetary interventions from governments). Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved, so a calculation that this was worth trying at the time is one governments could reasonably make.I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."
Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.
From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.
When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.
And I don't think China's "Zero COVID Policy" is about COVID. But that would be more of a conspiracy theory than actual facts.
Did governments get everything right? Of course not. Were they properly prepared? No. in the situation they found themselves in, did they make reasonable good faith attempts to deal with the situation? Mostly, yes, sometimes dragged kicking and screaming in that direction and sometimes not at all and acting in extreme bad faith.
Most of us (China excepted) are now in a situation where we are being left to make our own choices. Getting vaccines and boosters has few downsides and major potential upsides. Wearing a mask according to one's own risk assessment has few downsides and major potential upsides. Not complaining about other people's choices about protecting themselves is good manners, complaining about people's choices about not protecting other people is reasonable but probably futile.
I've heard the estimate that by the time the lockdowns were initiated in America 3-4% of the population had been exposed to COVID, making control of it impossible.When policy makers are faced with a novel disease with uncertain effects they employ something called the "precautionary principle". They have to make decisions based on limited information ("uncertainty") where outcomes either way are likely to be irreversible. In the case of covid precautions mask wearing has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability while having limited and largely reversible downsides. Requiring potential super-spreader events to stop for a certain period again has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability but has significant potential downsides to social interactions (mostly not too bad if for a limited period) and economic activity (dealt with, atlhough not particularly well, by monetary interventions from governments). Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved, so a calculation that this was worth trying at the time is one governments could reasonably make.I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."
Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.
From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.
When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.
And I don't think China's "Zero COVID Policy" is about COVID. But that would be more of a conspiracy theory than actual facts.
Did governments get everything right? Of course not. Were they properly prepared? No. in the situation they found themselves in, did they make reasonable good faith attempts to deal with the situation? Mostly, yes, sometimes dragged kicking and screaming in that direction and sometimes not at all and acting in extreme bad faith.
Most of us (China excepted) are now in a situation where we are being left to make our own choices. Getting vaccines and boosters has few downsides and major potential upsides. Wearing a mask according to one's own risk assessment has few downsides and major potential upsides. Not complaining about other people's choices about protecting themselves is good manners, complaining about people's choices about not protecting other people is reasonable but probably futile.
We could have focussed on protecting the most vulnerable but instead attempted the impossible.
I've heard the estimate that by the time the lockdowns were initiated in America 3-4% of the population had been exposed to COVID, making control of it impossible.When policy makers are faced with a novel disease with uncertain effects they employ something called the "precautionary principle". They have to make decisions based on limited information ("uncertainty") where outcomes either way are likely to be irreversible. In the case of covid precautions mask wearing has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability while having limited and largely reversible downsides. Requiring potential super-spreader events to stop for a certain period again has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability but has significant potential downsides to social interactions (mostly not too bad if for a limited period) and economic activity (dealt with, atlhough not particularly well, by monetary interventions from governments). Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved, so a calculation that this was worth trying at the time is one governments could reasonably make.I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."
Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.
From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.
When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.
And I don't think China's "Zero COVID Policy" is about COVID. But that would be more of a conspiracy theory than actual facts.
Did governments get everything right? Of course not. Were they properly prepared? No. in the situation they found themselves in, did they make reasonable good faith attempts to deal with the situation? Mostly, yes, sometimes dragged kicking and screaming in that direction and sometimes not at all and acting in extreme bad faith.
Most of us (China excepted) are now in a situation where we are being left to make our own choices. Getting vaccines and boosters has few downsides and major potential upsides. Wearing a mask according to one's own risk assessment has few downsides and major potential upsides. Not complaining about other people's choices about protecting themselves is good manners, complaining about people's choices about not protecting other people is reasonable but probably futile.
We could have focussed on protecting the most vulnerable but instead attempted the impossible.
Again, what do you mean when you talk about the US going into lockdown? We never went into lock down. In my neck of the woods, most work places, including mine, never closed. Grocery stores never closed. Parks never closed. People were out walking the streets, patronizing businesses and socializing. Restaurants transitioned from sit-down to take-out.
Hospitals were overwhelmed and there were not enough beds for those who needed it. People with non-Covid health needs suffered from lack of available care. Most of the talk was about "flattening the curve."
And Australia.See New Zealand.Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved
No, it couldn't have had that potential. And by the time anyone even considered something like that it was way too late for it to be a remotely possible outcome anyways.
Yeah, no. If the above were even remotely true, China would be covid free by now.
A big problem in North America is that people's baseline health is poor compared to Scandanavians' and just about everyone else, in the First World anyway. North Americans living a sedentary, car-based lifestyle, eating predominantly heavily processed fast foods, are uniquely situated to become victims of any novel disease that comes along. Pretty sure covid is playing out exactly as Darwin would've predicted. It's culling the herd of the weaker, sicker humans.
What's possible in a tiny, island country like NZ, with a population of only 5MM, is NOT possible in a huge country like China, with a population of >1.4BB. That's why we're challenging your statement above, "Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether" No, they couldn't have.
The collection of policies that were supposed to "slow the spread."I've heard the estimate that by the time the lockdowns were initiated in America 3-4% of the population had been exposed to COVID, making control of it impossible.When policy makers are faced with a novel disease with uncertain effects they employ something called the "precautionary principle". They have to make decisions based on limited information ("uncertainty") where outcomes either way are likely to be irreversible. In the case of covid precautions mask wearing has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability while having limited and largely reversible downsides. Requiring potential super-spreader events to stop for a certain period again has the potential to reduce death and permanent disability but has significant potential downsides to social interactions (mostly not too bad if for a limited period) and economic activity (dealt with, atlhough not particularly well, by monetary interventions from governments). Full lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic could have had the potential to stop covid altogether in which case many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved, so a calculation that this was worth trying at the time is one governments could reasonably make.I think people made the best decisions they could with the limited information they had and based on whatever research they had at the time, during an incredibly stressful, challenging, and uncertain time.There had been studies done prior to 2020 that showed the proposed solutions had limited effectiveness. These were promptly thrown out and ignored when they were deemed "problematic."
Unlike China, where the current implementation of their dynamic zero COVID policy really makes absolutely no sense.
From where I’m sitting (in lockdown at home in Shanghai as a potential close contact), at least your countries tried to employ critical thinking skills when making decisions and at least somewhat consider basic human rights.
When it comes to the question, where do I stand on “living with COVID” versus “getting back to normal”, we are leaning more and more towards repatriating back to North America so that we can “get back to normal”.
And I don't think China's "Zero COVID Policy" is about COVID. But that would be more of a conspiracy theory than actual facts.
Did governments get everything right? Of course not. Were they properly prepared? No. in the situation they found themselves in, did they make reasonable good faith attempts to deal with the situation? Mostly, yes, sometimes dragged kicking and screaming in that direction and sometimes not at all and acting in extreme bad faith.
Most of us (China excepted) are now in a situation where we are being left to make our own choices. Getting vaccines and boosters has few downsides and major potential upsides. Wearing a mask according to one's own risk assessment has few downsides and major potential upsides. Not complaining about other people's choices about protecting themselves is good manners, complaining about people's choices about not protecting other people is reasonable but probably futile.
We could have focussed on protecting the most vulnerable but instead attempted the impossible.
Again, what do you mean when you talk about the US going into lockdown? We never went into lock down. In my neck of the woods, most work places, including mine, never closed. Grocery stores never closed. Parks never closed. People were out walking the streets, patronizing businesses and socializing. Restaurants transitioned from sit-down to take-out.
Hospitals were overwhelmed and there were not enough beds for those who needed it. People with non-Covid health needs suffered from lack of available care. Most of the talk was about "flattening the curve."
Several countries managed to get to 0 covid19 cases, so it wasn’t unattainable. If all countries had worked together to do it, we would no longer have covid19.I do not believe that would have been possible given how interconnected our world is, there being no record of "purging" the animal populations that the virus started in ( first it was bats, then it was dog raccoons and some third species) and the delay inherent in every bureaucracy when faced with something unknown.
As my country managed to do it, without 0 actually being the goal, and other countries managed to do it, I believe it could have been done everywhere. We proved that it could.Several countries managed to get to 0 covid19 cases, so it wasn’t unattainable. If all countries had worked together to do it, we would no longer have covid19.I do not believe that would have been possible given how interconnected our world is, there being no record of "purging" the animal populations that the virus started in ( first it was bats, then it was dog raccoons and some third species) and the delay inherent in every bureaucracy when faced with something unknown.
Another article on school closures due to COVID 19.
https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/10/pandemic-school-closures-americas-learning-loss/671868/
When I say lockdowns I mean the "broad set of policies that hindered the normal functions of life due to COVID 19 restrictions. Or suggested restrictions that were implemented at a state level. Or implemented at a business level."
It seems mostly people who are pissed with the precautions are posting they won't offer amnesty to those being cautious in early days.
I'll go the other direction and say, no, I have no interest in offering amnesty to those who refused to take basic precautions when very little was known about a virulent and deadly disease. Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
People *on this board even* still harass me for my personal choice to wear a mask when grocery shopping/attending medical appointments. Why? It doesn't affect you.
And let's not fool ourselves pretending we were like China's lockdown. Yes, bars (optional social spreader activity) were temporarily closed, but I know of no area that shut down grocery stores at any time.
- A person who lost a relative to COVID-19
It seems mostly people who are pissed with the precautions are posting they won't offer amnesty to those being cautious in early days.
I'll go the other direction and say, no, I have no interest in offering amnesty to those who refused to take basic precautions when very little was known about a virulent and deadly disease. Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
People *on this board even* still harass me for my personal choice to wear a mask when grocery shopping/attending medical appointments. Why? It doesn't affect you.
And let's not fool ourselves pretending we were like China's lockdown. Yes, bars (optional social spreader activity) were temporarily closed, but I know of no area that shut down grocery stores at any time.
- A person who lost a relative to COVID-19
Yes x 1000. It's like opposite day on this thread.
Wait, did your country use PCR tests? Do you know know how many amplification cycles your labs used? What year did your country reach "0 COVID"?As my country managed to do it, without 0 actually being the goal, and other countries managed to do it, I believe it could have been done everywhere. We proved that it could.Several countries managed to get to 0 covid19 cases, so it wasn’t unattainable. If all countries had worked together to do it, we would no longer have covid19.I do not believe that would have been possible given how interconnected our world is, there being no record of "purging" the animal populations that the virus started in ( first it was bats, then it was dog raccoons and some third species) and the delay inherent in every bureaucracy when faced with something unknown.
It seems mostly people who are pissed with the precautions are posting they won't offer amnesty to those being cautious in early days.That's a bold strategy there, Cotton. Hope it works out for you.
I'll go the other direction and say, no, I have no interest in offering amnesty to those who refused to take basic precautions when very little was known about a virulent and deadly disease. Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
People *on this board even* still harass me for my personal choice to wear a mask when grocery shopping/attending medical appointments. Why? It doesn't affect you.
And let's not fool ourselves pretending we were like China's lockdown. Yes, bars (optional social spreader activity) were temporarily closed, but I know of no area that shut down grocery stores at any time.
- A person who lost a relative to COVID-19
It seems mostly people who are pissed with the precautions are posting they won't offer amnesty to those being cautious in early days.
I'll go the other direction and say, no, I have no interest in offering amnesty to those who refused to take basic precautions when very little was known about a virulent and deadly disease. Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
People *on this board even* still harass me for my personal choice to wear a mask when grocery shopping/attending medical appointments. Why? It doesn't affect you.
And let's not fool ourselves pretending we were like China's lockdown. Yes, bars (optional social spreader activity) were temporarily closed, but I know of no area that shut down grocery stores at any time.
- A person who lost a relative to COVID-19
It seems mostly people who are pissed with the precautions are posting they won't offer amnesty to those being cautious in early days.That's a bold strategy there, Cotton. Hope it works out for you.
I'll go the other direction and say, no, I have no interest in offering amnesty to those who refused to take basic precautions when very little was known about a virulent and deadly disease. Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
People *on this board even* still harass me for my personal choice to wear a mask when grocery shopping/attending medical appointments. Why? It doesn't affect you.
And let's not fool ourselves pretending we were like China's lockdown. Yes, bars (optional social spreader activity) were temporarily closed, but I know of no area that shut down grocery stores at any time.
- A person who lost a relative to COVID-19
Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
We're not retreating, we're advancing! Towards future victory!It seems mostly people who are pissed with the precautions are posting they won't offer amnesty to those being cautious in early days.That's a bold strategy there, Cotton. Hope it works out for you.
I'll go the other direction and say, no, I have no interest in offering amnesty to those who refused to take basic precautions when very little was known about a virulent and deadly disease. Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
People *on this board even* still harass me for my personal choice to wear a mask when grocery shopping/attending medical appointments. Why? It doesn't affect you.
And let's not fool ourselves pretending we were like China's lockdown. Yes, bars (optional social spreader activity) were temporarily closed, but I know of no area that shut down grocery stores at any time.
- A person who lost a relative to COVID-19
They've done studies, you know. 60 percent of the time, it works every time.
I'll see your Dodgeball quote and raise you an Anchorman quote
Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
Trying to avoid picking sides here, but this seems a bit cavalier. I don't want to mix up these two subjects, though. There is a bit of a straw man mixed in here. You seem to be equating wearing masks with all of the strange issues that students and schools had to go through...
Development windows for kids aren't infinite. Schooling cannot be "caught up on", and from the data it appears that we have interrupted a generation's learning with unknown long term consequences (similar to how we have affected the health of long term covid survivors with unknown long term consequences). You can be concerned about both. I certainly am. I also empathize with parents who are dealing with this. My brother is a teacher in high school... this is not a minor problem. I could see it being argued that it is a better problem than more lives lost, but now we are getting into more philosophical types of discussion, such as how we measure quality of life. Is simply being alive the best metric, or should it be satisfaction or productivity or pleasure or something else? Kids are developmentally stunted, and we don't have many fixes on the horizon, an the system isn't built to cope with that.
There are thousands of poor Blacks and Latinos within a couple of miles of my house. They all worked at in-person jobs, all throughout the pandemic. Having their kids not in school was REALLY hard for many of them. Back in 2020 and 2021, while we and all of our white friends and neighbors were still wearing masks and socially distancing ourselves, I watched black people in my neighborhood shake hands, hug, and even get to enjoy smoking joints together. So, were my family and I supposed to be wiping down our groceries with bleach and wearing masks inside stores to protect those people? I guess, but why?
In your opinion how long would it have taken to get the appropriate data to show COVID wasn't as deadly as they claimed?Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
Trying to avoid picking sides here, but this seems a bit cavalier. I don't want to mix up these two subjects, though. There is a bit of a straw man mixed in here. You seem to be equating wearing masks with all of the strange issues that students and schools had to go through...
Development windows for kids aren't infinite. Schooling cannot be "caught up on", and from the data it appears that we have interrupted a generation's learning with unknown long term consequences (similar to how we have affected the health of long term covid survivors with unknown long term consequences). You can be concerned about both. I certainly am. I also empathize with parents who are dealing with this. My brother is a teacher in high school... this is not a minor problem. I could see it being argued that it is a better problem than more lives lost, but now we are getting into more philosophical types of discussion, such as how we measure quality of life. Is simply being alive the best metric, or should it be satisfaction or productivity or pleasure or something else? Kids are developmentally stunted, and we don't have many fixes on the horizon, an the system isn't built to cope with that.
So let's tweak the system and fix it. The ease of learning during developmental windows may not be infinite, but they aren't closed. Death is final. In the past two years, we've lost almost 3 years in life expectancy, largely driven by COVID-19.
One side was uninterested in taking minimal precautions that could have prevented deaths and maybe the need for larger interventions. Masking is a catch all for minimum precautions, but I have been a proponent of others, like pooled regular testing for schools. I also favor additional supports such as companies being mandated to provide a minimum sick leave for all workers. I used masking as an example because I was responding to the amnesty question - where I responded no, I have no desire to offer amnesty to people who were willing to do absolutely nada to help others.
When you see people dying (30+ in the long-term care facility where I work, yes it's personal to me, beyond the relative I lost), yeah, I f'ing believe you ought to take precautions until you can take stock and figure out what's working and what's not as effective.
I emphasize with those who had their kids lose ground in school and parents trying to teach and work at the same time. (I also emphasize with teachers and kids who are or have family members with health challenges who worried going to school would be deadly.) Lest you think me entirely callous and not considering of any other consequences, know that I donated large sums of money starting early in the pandemic to organizations supporting hunger relief and domestic violence. But yes, even in retrospect I would still prioritize the lives and avoiding unknown long-term health issues over possible lost education, and I'm huge proponent of education.
In your opinion how long would it have taken to get the appropriate data to show COVID wasn't as deadly as they claimed?Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
Trying to avoid picking sides here, but this seems a bit cavalier. I don't want to mix up these two subjects, though. There is a bit of a straw man mixed in here. You seem to be equating wearing masks with all of the strange issues that students and schools had to go through...
Development windows for kids aren't infinite. Schooling cannot be "caught up on", and from the data it appears that we have interrupted a generation's learning with unknown long term consequences (similar to how we have affected the health of long term covid survivors with unknown long term consequences). You can be concerned about both. I certainly am. I also empathize with parents who are dealing with this. My brother is a teacher in high school... this is not a minor problem. I could see it being argued that it is a better problem than more lives lost, but now we are getting into more philosophical types of discussion, such as how we measure quality of life. Is simply being alive the best metric, or should it be satisfaction or productivity or pleasure or something else? Kids are developmentally stunted, and we don't have many fixes on the horizon, an the system isn't built to cope with that.
So let's tweak the system and fix it. The ease of learning during developmental windows may not be infinite, but they aren't closed. Death is final. In the past two years, we've lost almost 3 years in life expectancy, largely driven by COVID-19.
One side was uninterested in taking minimal precautions that could have prevented deaths and maybe the need for larger interventions. Masking is a catch all for minimum precautions, but I have been a proponent of others, like pooled regular testing for schools. I also favor additional supports such as companies being mandated to provide a minimum sick leave for all workers. I used masking as an example because I was responding to the amnesty question - where I responded no, I have no desire to offer amnesty to people who were willing to do absolutely nada to help others.
When you see people dying (30+ in the long-term care facility where I work, yes it's personal to me, beyond the relative I lost), yeah, I f'ing believe you ought to take precautions until you can take stock and figure out what's working and what's not as effective.
I emphasize with those who had their kids lose ground in school and parents trying to teach and work at the same time. (I also emphasize with teachers and kids who are or have family members with health challenges who worried going to school would be deadly.) Lest you think me entirely callous and not considering of any other consequences, know that I donated large sums of money starting early in the pandemic to organizations supporting hunger relief and domestic violence. But yes, even in retrospect I would still prioritize the lives and avoiding unknown long-term health issues over possible lost education, and I'm huge proponent of education.
Thou dost protest too much. Anyway you slice it, it still sounds like hobbling children for the sake of the elderly.
In your opinion how long would it have taken to get the appropriate data to show COVID wasn't as deadly as they claimed?Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
Trying to avoid picking sides here, but this seems a bit cavalier. I don't want to mix up these two subjects, though. There is a bit of a straw man mixed in here. You seem to be equating wearing masks with all of the strange issues that students and schools had to go through...
Development windows for kids aren't infinite. Schooling cannot be "caught up on", and from the data it appears that we have interrupted a generation's learning with unknown long term consequences (similar to how we have affected the health of long term covid survivors with unknown long term consequences). You can be concerned about both. I certainly am. I also empathize with parents who are dealing with this. My brother is a teacher in high school... this is not a minor problem. I could see it being argued that it is a better problem than more lives lost, but now we are getting into more philosophical types of discussion, such as how we measure quality of life. Is simply being alive the best metric, or should it be satisfaction or productivity or pleasure or something else? Kids are developmentally stunted, and we don't have many fixes on the horizon, an the system isn't built to cope with that.
So let's tweak the system and fix it. The ease of learning during developmental windows may not be infinite, but they aren't closed. Death is final. In the past two years, we've lost almost 3 years in life expectancy, largely driven by COVID-19.
One side was uninterested in taking minimal precautions that could have prevented deaths and maybe the need for larger interventions. Masking is a catch all for minimum precautions, but I have been a proponent of others, like pooled regular testing for schools. I also favor additional supports such as companies being mandated to provide a minimum sick leave for all workers. I used masking as an example because I was responding to the amnesty question - where I responded no, I have no desire to offer amnesty to people who were willing to do absolutely nada to help others.
When you see people dying (30+ in the long-term care facility where I work, yes it's personal to me, beyond the relative I lost), yeah, I f'ing believe you ought to take precautions until you can take stock and figure out what's working and what's not as effective.
I emphasize with those who had their kids lose ground in school and parents trying to teach and work at the same time. (I also emphasize with teachers and kids who are or have family members with health challenges who worried going to school would be deadly.) Lest you think me entirely callous and not considering of any other consequences, know that I donated large sums of money starting early in the pandemic to organizations supporting hunger relief and domestic violence. But yes, even in retrospect I would still prioritize the lives and avoiding unknown long-term health issues over possible lost education, and I'm huge proponent of education.
Thou dost protest too much. Anyway you slice it, it still sounds like hobbling children for the sake of the elderly.
We're following the science that says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020.
Considering that Alzheimer's runs in my family and I am pretty terrified of that, I would probably welcome COVID as a mercy. And I would probably be pissed off if my family sacrificed my hypothetical grandkids to save my life.In your opinion how long would it have taken to get the appropriate data to show COVID wasn't as deadly as they claimed?Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
Trying to avoid picking sides here, but this seems a bit cavalier. I don't want to mix up these two subjects, though. There is a bit of a straw man mixed in here. You seem to be equating wearing masks with all of the strange issues that students and schools had to go through...
Development windows for kids aren't infinite. Schooling cannot be "caught up on", and from the data it appears that we have interrupted a generation's learning with unknown long term consequences (similar to how we have affected the health of long term covid survivors with unknown long term consequences). You can be concerned about both. I certainly am. I also empathize with parents who are dealing with this. My brother is a teacher in high school... this is not a minor problem. I could see it being argued that it is a better problem than more lives lost, but now we are getting into more philosophical types of discussion, such as how we measure quality of life. Is simply being alive the best metric, or should it be satisfaction or productivity or pleasure or something else? Kids are developmentally stunted, and we don't have many fixes on the horizon, an the system isn't built to cope with that.
So let's tweak the system and fix it. The ease of learning during developmental windows may not be infinite, but they aren't closed. Death is final. In the past two years, we've lost almost 3 years in life expectancy, largely driven by COVID-19.
One side was uninterested in taking minimal precautions that could have prevented deaths and maybe the need for larger interventions. Masking is a catch all for minimum precautions, but I have been a proponent of others, like pooled regular testing for schools. I also favor additional supports such as companies being mandated to provide a minimum sick leave for all workers. I used masking as an example because I was responding to the amnesty question - where I responded no, I have no desire to offer amnesty to people who were willing to do absolutely nada to help others.
When you see people dying (30+ in the long-term care facility where I work, yes it's personal to me, beyond the relative I lost), yeah, I f'ing believe you ought to take precautions until you can take stock and figure out what's working and what's not as effective.
I emphasize with those who had their kids lose ground in school and parents trying to teach and work at the same time. (I also emphasize with teachers and kids who are or have family members with health challenges who worried going to school would be deadly.) Lest you think me entirely callous and not considering of any other consequences, know that I donated large sums of money starting early in the pandemic to organizations supporting hunger relief and domestic violence. But yes, even in retrospect I would still prioritize the lives and avoiding unknown long-term health issues over possible lost education, and I'm huge proponent of education.
Thou dost protest too much. Anyway you slice it, it still sounds like hobbling children for the sake of the elderly.
And all the other people who died or who have long Covid? It wasn't just the elderly who died.
And generally epidemics take the weakest, so that is the elderly and the very young. The 1918-1920 flu epidemic was unusual in that it took the 20-40 group the most. Took my Dad's parents, he was 3. Covid took people in their 20s and 30s and 40s too, just not as many. What fun epidemics are.
Someday you will be the elderly (at what age does that start, btw?) if something doesn't get you earlier. I hope you will be philosophical about society not wanting to protect your health then.
I was asking "would mid 2020 been long enough to collect data"? It was apparent that this wasn't going to be a civilization ending plague despite the hype.In your opinion how long would it have taken to get the appropriate data to show COVID wasn't as deadly as they claimed?Yes, some schooling time was lost. Better that than more lives. We already lost over a million lives to COVID-19. Yeah, I still think it was horribly selfish/self-interested to defy local mandates to take even the most minor precautions such as wearing a mask. Schooling can be caught up on but there's no way to bring back the lost lives.
Trying to avoid picking sides here, but this seems a bit cavalier. I don't want to mix up these two subjects, though. There is a bit of a straw man mixed in here. You seem to be equating wearing masks with all of the strange issues that students and schools had to go through...
Development windows for kids aren't infinite. Schooling cannot be "caught up on", and from the data it appears that we have interrupted a generation's learning with unknown long term consequences (similar to how we have affected the health of long term covid survivors with unknown long term consequences). You can be concerned about both. I certainly am. I also empathize with parents who are dealing with this. My brother is a teacher in high school... this is not a minor problem. I could see it being argued that it is a better problem than more lives lost, but now we are getting into more philosophical types of discussion, such as how we measure quality of life. Is simply being alive the best metric, or should it be satisfaction or productivity or pleasure or something else? Kids are developmentally stunted, and we don't have many fixes on the horizon, an the system isn't built to cope with that.
So let's tweak the system and fix it. The ease of learning during developmental windows may not be infinite, but they aren't closed. Death is final. In the past two years, we've lost almost 3 years in life expectancy, largely driven by COVID-19.
One side was uninterested in taking minimal precautions that could have prevented deaths and maybe the need for larger interventions. Masking is a catch all for minimum precautions, but I have been a proponent of others, like pooled regular testing for schools. I also favor additional supports such as companies being mandated to provide a minimum sick leave for all workers. I used masking as an example because I was responding to the amnesty question - where I responded no, I have no desire to offer amnesty to people who were willing to do absolutely nada to help others.
When you see people dying (30+ in the long-term care facility where I work, yes it's personal to me, beyond the relative I lost), yeah, I f'ing believe you ought to take precautions until you can take stock and figure out what's working and what's not as effective.
I emphasize with those who had their kids lose ground in school and parents trying to teach and work at the same time. (I also emphasize with teachers and kids who are or have family members with health challenges who worried going to school would be deadly.) Lest you think me entirely callous and not considering of any other consequences, know that I donated large sums of money starting early in the pandemic to organizations supporting hunger relief and domestic violence. But yes, even in retrospect I would still prioritize the lives and avoiding unknown long-term health issues over possible lost education, and I'm huge proponent of education.
Thou dost protest too much. Anyway you slice it, it still sounds like hobbling children for the sake of the elderly.
You're asking for a specific answer to a general question. That's very difficult to give.
Who are 'they'? Exactly what level of deadliness was claimed that you're referencing? Can you source the specific quote that has you concerned?
Early estimates of the deadliness of covid were all over the place as not much data was known. As the data got better, so did our estimates based on measurements. The virus also mutated to a less damaging form and populations became better vaccinated, increasing survival rates further.
There are still concerns about long-covid impacts from infection (and the impact of multiple re-infections which seem worsen problems further). Are we including this information into the 'deadliness' calculation?
Wearing a mask = lockdown
Wearing a mask = lockdown
This forum has used the word "lockdown" to refer to the wide range of restrictions and work from home orders in 2020 / 2021 in a multitude of threads. Don't act like you don't know that.
Wearing a mask = lockdown
This forum has used the word "lockdown" to refer to the wide range of restrictions and work from home orders in 2020 / 2021 in a multitude of threads. Don't act like you don't know that.
“this forum” does not.
Certain people on this forum do, incorrectly. Because it bolsters their flimsy case.
Wearing a mask = lockdown
This forum has used the word "lockdown" to refer to the wide range of restrictions and work from home orders in 2020 / 2021 in a multitude of threads. Don't act like you don't know that.
“this forum” does not.
Certain people on this forum do, incorrectly. Because it bolsters their flimsy case.
Certain people... like you?
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/unmustachian-things-we're-doing-due-to-coronavirus/msg2611646/#msg2611646
Wearing a mask = lockdown
This forum has used the word "lockdown" to refer to the wide range of restrictions and work from home orders in 2020 / 2021 in a multitude of threads. Don't act like you don't know that.
“this forum” does not.
Certain people on this forum do, incorrectly. Because it bolsters their flimsy case.
Certain people... like you?
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/unmustachian-things-we're-doing-due-to-coronavirus/msg2611646/#msg2611646
Dude, even if certain people say certain things, it still doesn’t prove that “the forum” has a single definition.
Wearing a mask = lockdown
This forum has used the word "lockdown" to refer to the wide range of restrictions and work from home orders in 2020 / 2021 in a multitude of threads. Don't act like you don't know that.
“this forum” does not.
Certain people on this forum do, incorrectly. Because it bolsters their flimsy case.
Certain people... like you?
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/unmustachian-things-we're-doing-due-to-coronavirus/msg2611646/#msg2611646
Dude, even if certain people say certain things, it still doesn’t prove that “the forum” has a single definition.
Just saying that you literally refer to the early 2020 restrictions as a lockdown. Just like the rest of this forum accepts it as meaning that.
Wearing a mask = lockdown
This forum has used the word "lockdown" to refer to the wide range of restrictions and work from home orders in 2020 / 2021 in a multitude of threads. Don't act like you don't know that.
We're following the science that says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020.
Can you post a link to the science that is telling you that?
We're following the science that says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020.
Can you post a link to the science that is telling you that?
The CDC says, Covid-19 Vaccines Work (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/work.html). Aren't they the final arbiters of science in the US? If so, and we're otherwise healthy, seems like we should be safe living life normally, right? If not now, then when?
"COVID-19 Vaccines Protect Against COVID-19 Infections and Hospitalizations
Vaccines reduce the risk of COVID-19, including the risk of severe illness and death among people who are fully vaccinated. In addition to data from clinical trials, evidence from real-world vaccine effectiveness studies show that COVID-19 vaccines help protect against COVID-19 infections, with or without symptoms (asymptomatic infections). Vaccine effectiveness against hospitalizations has remained relatively high over time, although it tends to be slightly lower for older adults and for people with weakened immune systems."
We're following the science that says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020.
Can you post a link to the science that is telling you that?
The CDC says, Covid-19 Vaccines Work (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/work.html). Aren't they the final arbiters of science in the US? If so, and we're otherwise healthy, seems like we should be safe living life normally, right? If not now, then when?
"COVID-19 Vaccines Protect Against COVID-19 Infections and Hospitalizations
Vaccines reduce the risk of COVID-19, including the risk of severe illness and death among people who are fully vaccinated. In addition to data from clinical trials, evidence from real-world vaccine effectiveness studies show that COVID-19 vaccines help protect against COVID-19 infections, with or without symptoms (asymptomatic infections). Vaccine effectiveness against hospitalizations has remained relatively high over time, although it tends to be slightly lower for older adults and for people with weakened immune systems."
I was asking for science that "says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020." That has not been supplied.
The link you posted indicates that vaccines work pretty well to prevent hospitalization and severe illness. It doesn't discuss long covid (and related complications that don't necessitate hospitalization but can seriously impact someone's life), it doesn't mention anything masking, and it doesn't discuss 'going back to normal just like everyone used to before 2020'.
Do you actually have any science that supports the argument you were making, or were you taking the information that the CDC supplied and drawing your own personal conclusions? If the latter, can you not see how others could draw different but equally reasonable conclusions from the same data?
The latter. Based on the CDC's claims that in healthy individuals vaccines work to prevent severe disease, hospitalization, and death, we are choosing to go back to living our lives as we did before covid started. Absolutely, I can understand others drawing different but equally reasonable conclusions based on the same information. A close relative recently underwent organ transplant surgery. Even if covid disappeared tomorrow, he would have to continue social distancing and wearing masks in indoor spaces, for the rest of his life, because even a cold or flu could easily kill him. Thankfully, we aren't in that same risk group. Also, I don't believe that we are in any way 100% assured of not getting covid, just because we're vaccinated. One of us could still get it, get really sick, and even die, but we're willing to accept that relatively small risk. If I died from covid next week, it would suck, but so what? Eventually, we're all going to die from something, anyway. My family would get another $100K in life insurance benefits to use to buy stocks at discount prices. Pretty sure, though, my risk of dying by getting run over by a car is way, way higher than dying from covid, given that I ride everywhere on my bike in a city where distracted driving is pretty much the norm.
The quote from the CDC doesn't say "prevent", it says "reduces the risk".We're following the science that says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020.
Can you post a link to the science that is telling you that?
The CDC says, Covid-19 Vaccines Work (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/work.html). Aren't they the final arbiters of science in the US? If so, and we're otherwise healthy, seems like we should be safe living life normally, right? If not now, then when?
"COVID-19 Vaccines Protect Against COVID-19 Infections and Hospitalizations
Vaccines reduce the risk of COVID-19, including the risk of severe illness and death among people who are fully vaccinated. In addition to data from clinical trials, evidence from real-world vaccine effectiveness studies show that COVID-19 vaccines help protect against COVID-19 infections, with or without symptoms (asymptomatic infections). Vaccine effectiveness against hospitalizations has remained relatively high over time, although it tends to be slightly lower for older adults and for people with weakened immune systems."
I was asking for science that "says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020." That has not been supplied.
The link you posted indicates that vaccines work pretty well to prevent hospitalization and severe illness. It doesn't discuss long covid (and related complications that don't necessitate hospitalization but can seriously impact someone's life), it doesn't mention anything masking, and it doesn't discuss 'going back to normal just like everyone used to before 2020'.
Do you actually have any science that supports the argument you were making, or were you taking the information that the CDC supplied and drawing your own personal conclusions? If the latter, can you not see how others could draw different but equally reasonable conclusions from the same data?
The latter. Based on the CDC's claims that in healthy individuals vaccines work to prevent severe disease, hospitalization, and death, we are choosing to go back to living our lives as we did before covid started. Absolutely, I can understand others drawing different but equally reasonable conclusions based on the same information. A close relative recently underwent organ transplant surgery. Even if covid disappeared tomorrow, he would have to continue social distancing and wearing masks in indoor spaces, for the rest of his life, because even a cold or flu could easily kill him. Thankfully, we aren't in that same risk group. Also, I don't believe that we are in any way 100% assured of not getting covid, just because we're vaccinated. One of us could still get it, get really sick, and even die, but we're willing to accept that relatively small risk. If I died from covid next week, it would suck, but so what? Eventually, we're all going to die from something, anyway. My family would get another $100K in life insurance benefits to use to buy stocks at discount prices. Pretty sure, though, my risk of dying by getting run over by a car is way, way higher than dying from covid, given that I ride everywhere on my bike in a city where distracted driving is pretty much the norm.
If I died from covid next week, it would suck, but so what? Eventually, we're all going to die from something, anyway. My family would get another $100K in life insurance benefits to use to buy stocks at discount prices. Pretty sure, though, my risk of dying by getting run over by a car is way, way higher than dying from covid, given that I ride everywhere on my bike in a city where distracted driving is pretty much the norm.
The latter. Based on the CDC's claims that in healthy individuals vaccines work to prevent severe disease, hospitalization, and death, we are choosing to go back to living our lives as we did before covid started. Absolutely, I can understand others drawing different but equally reasonable conclusions based on the same information. A close relative recently underwent organ transplant surgery. Even if covid disappeared tomorrow, he would have to continue social distancing and wearing masks in indoor spaces, for the rest of his life, because even a cold or flu could easily kill him. Thankfully, we aren't in that same risk group. Also, I don't believe that we are in any way 100% assured of not getting covid, just because we're vaccinated. One of us could still get it, get really sick, and even die, but we're willing to accept that relatively small risk. If I died from covid next week, it would suck, but so what? Eventually, we're all going to die from something, anyway. My family would get another $100K in life insurance benefits to use to buy stocks at discount prices. Pretty sure, though, my risk of dying by getting run over by a car is way, way higher than dying from covid, given that I ride everywhere on my bike in a city where distracted driving is pretty much the norm.
Sure, and I can respect that you're making that choice and understand where you're coming from.
Maybe I'm harping on this, but that's a personal decision - not what 'the science' is saying you should do. Someone could make a completely different choice that is at least as valid based on the same science available. So the claim that "the science that says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020" is really not a valid one to make, right?
If I died from covid next week, it would suck, but so what? Eventually, we're all going to die from something, anyway. My family would get another $100K in life insurance benefits to use to buy stocks at discount prices. Pretty sure, though, my risk of dying by getting run over by a car is way, way higher than dying from covid, given that I ride everywhere on my bike in a city where distracted driving is pretty much the norm.
If you died from Covid next week because you didn't take reasonable precautions, you would leave behind a grieving family (I assume they love you) who would also be mad at you because you didn't take reasonable precautions. And believe me, the insurance money wouldn't make them feel better. As I've written here before, my Dad lost his parents when he was 3, to the Spanish Flu. There was enough insurance to see him and his brother through University during the Depression. But he often said he would have much rather his parents lived. Unfortunately they were in the high risk age group for that pandemic.
The latter. Based on the CDC's claims that in healthy individuals vaccines work to prevent severe disease, hospitalization, and death, we are choosing to go back to living our lives as we did before covid started. Absolutely, I can understand others drawing different but equally reasonable conclusions based on the same information. A close relative recently underwent organ transplant surgery. Even if covid disappeared tomorrow, he would have to continue social distancing and wearing masks in indoor spaces, for the rest of his life, because even a cold or flu could easily kill him. Thankfully, we aren't in that same risk group. Also, I don't believe that we are in any way 100% assured of not getting covid, just because we're vaccinated. One of us could still get it, get really sick, and even die, but we're willing to accept that relatively small risk. If I died from covid next week, it would suck, but so what? Eventually, we're all going to die from something, anyway. My family would get another $100K in life insurance benefits to use to buy stocks at discount prices. Pretty sure, though, my risk of dying by getting run over by a car is way, way higher than dying from covid, given that I ride everywhere on my bike in a city where distracted driving is pretty much the norm.
Sure, and I can respect that you're making that choice and understand where you're coming from.
Maybe I'm harping on this, but that's a personal decision - not what 'the science' is saying you should do. Someone could make a completely different choice that is at least as valid based on the same science available. So the claim that "the science that says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020" is really not a valid one to make, right?
We are making a personal decision based on scientific evidence, as represented by the CDC. If the CDC were saying, "Covid vaccines aren't very effective. All schools are closed. Don't go to the gym. Don't go into the office if you can avoid it. Don't meet up with friends or relatives. No bars. No restaurants. Masks everywhere. Etc," and we decided it was a good idea to go to Disneyland, then that wouldn't be a valid choice, at least not based on the scientific evidence. Given the fact that the CDC is saying that covid vaccines are highly effective at preventing serious illness from the coronavirus, and we are all fully vaccinated (5X each, in my wife's and my cases), our choice to accept a small amount of risk that we might catch covid and get really sick from it anyway, seems completely reasonable to me. That's not saying that others, who may have very different levels of risk tolerance or different baseline levels of health, can't make completely different choices. Everyone's free to do as they like. It just seems to me like, at some point, we need to trust in our public health officials. The CDC is telling us that, based on the best science currently available, covid vaccines are highly effective. We're choosing to trust the CDC and the science that they represent.
You went to Home Depot? Well shit. Can't argue with that logic. Guess I can just disregard this report of millions of people being pushed towards famine due to economic damage.Wearing a mask = lockdown
This forum has used the word "lockdown" to refer to the wide range of restrictions and work from home orders in 2020 / 2021 in a multitude of threads. Don't act like you don't know that.
I don't agree "lockdown" is the forum wide agreed upon nomenclature, but I do recognize that that poster was referring to the early response of the US government as a lockdown. And that is what I am disagreeing with. Poster @Freedomin5 is in China and is experiencing lockdowns, and those suck. We in the US never did.
In the summer of 2020, I went into Home Depot and someone politely asked me to stand 6 feet apart from other people. I'm basically like Nelson Mandela, let's go storm the capitol.
Is your issue with my post that you think we really did have lockdowns here, or that you don't think I should be allowed to say that we didn't?
Cawl, the was in such a nested post that it was a mess. I can't edit it easily. So you wrote:I apologize. I had to take care of my 100 year old grandmother during COVID when Hospice decided to shut down. And people would probably have accused me of being a "granny killer" but we didn't any other choice. We were put in an impossible situation.
Considering that Alzheimer's runs in my family and I am pretty terrified of that, I would probably welcome COVID as a mercy. And I would probably be pissed off if my family sacrificed my hypothetical grandkids to save my life.
Thank God we have better angels such as yourself that would sacrifice a man's grand children to keep him locked in his own personal hell. We would be lost without people like you.
That took a very general post and narrowed it down to your own personal situation. I'm sorry that you have to worry about Alheimer's and I expect your charitable donations are going to Alzeimer's research. I'm also guessing you plan to have a medical DNR when you get older and the situation applies.
My daughter's viewpoint is that she wants me alive to be Grannie to her daughter. I want your hypothetical grandchildren to be healthy and have healthy parents and grandparents. My father was orphaned at 3 because of the Spanish flu. Lots of children were orphaned in the early stages of the Covid pandemic. And more lost grandparents they loved.
But that was a very personal attack, which is frowned on in the forums. I don't want you locked in your personal hell, assuming you end up there. But I also don't want children's parents and grandparents dead when they could be healthy if we as a society took reasonable precautions.
The latter. Based on the CDC's claims that in healthy individuals vaccines work to prevent severe disease, hospitalization, and death, we are choosing to go back to living our lives as we did before covid started. Absolutely, I can understand others drawing different but equally reasonable conclusions based on the same information. A close relative recently underwent organ transplant surgery. Even if covid disappeared tomorrow, he would have to continue social distancing and wearing masks in indoor spaces, for the rest of his life, because even a cold or flu could easily kill him. Thankfully, we aren't in that same risk group. Also, I don't believe that we are in any way 100% assured of not getting covid, just because we're vaccinated. One of us could still get it, get really sick, and even die, but we're willing to accept that relatively small risk. If I died from covid next week, it would suck, but so what? Eventually, we're all going to die from something, anyway. My family would get another $100K in life insurance benefits to use to buy stocks at discount prices. Pretty sure, though, my risk of dying by getting run over by a car is way, way higher than dying from covid, given that I ride everywhere on my bike in a city where distracted driving is pretty much the norm.
Sure, and I can respect that you're making that choice and understand where you're coming from.
Maybe I'm harping on this, but that's a personal decision - not what 'the science' is saying you should do. Someone could make a completely different choice that is at least as valid based on the same science available. So the claim that "the science that says if you're fully vaccinated and not in poor health or any other sort of high-risk group, it's safe to go about our lives as normal, just like everyone used to before 2020" is really not a valid one to make, right?
We are making a personal decision based on scientific evidence, as represented by the CDC. If the CDC were saying, "Covid vaccines aren't very effective. All schools are closed. Don't go to the gym. Don't go into the office if you can avoid it. Don't meet up with friends or relatives. No bars. No restaurants. Masks everywhere. Etc," and we decided it was a good idea to go to Disneyland, then that wouldn't be a valid choice, at least not based on the scientific evidence. Given the fact that the CDC is saying that covid vaccines are highly effective at preventing serious illness from the coronavirus, and we are all fully vaccinated (5X each, in my wife's and my cases), our choice to accept a small amount of risk that we might catch covid and get really sick from it anyway, seems completely reasonable to me. That's not saying that others, who may have very different levels of risk tolerance or different baseline levels of health, can't make completely different choices. Everyone's free to do as they like. It just seems to me like, at some point, we need to trust in our public health officials. The CDC is telling us that, based on the best science currently available, covid vaccines are highly effective. We're choosing to trust the CDC and the science that they represent.
- Post-COVID conditions can include a wide range of ongoing health problems; these conditions can last weeks, months, or longer.
- Post-COVID conditions are found more often in people who had severe COVID-19 illness, but anyone who has been infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 can experience post-COVID conditions, even people who had mild illness or no symptoms from COVID-19.
- People who are not vaccinated against COVID-19 and become infected might also be at higher risk of developing post-COVID conditions compared to people who were vaccinated and had breakthrough infections.
The best way to prevent post-COVID conditions is to protect yourself and others from becoming infected.- https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html)
Cawl, the was in such a nested post that it was a mess. I can't edit it easily. So you wrote:I apologize. I had to take care of my 100 year old grandmother during COVID when Hospice decided to shut down. And people would probably have accused me of being a "granny killer" but we didn't any other choice. We were put in an impossible situation.
Considering that Alzheimer's runs in my family and I am pretty terrified of that, I would probably welcome COVID as a mercy. And I would probably be pissed off if my family sacrificed my hypothetical grandkids to save my life.
Thank God we have better angels such as yourself that would sacrifice a man's grand children to keep him locked in his own personal hell. We would be lost without people like you.
That took a very general post and narrowed it down to your own personal situation. I'm sorry that you have to worry about Alheimer's and I expect your charitable donations are going to Alzeimer's research. I'm also guessing you plan to have a medical DNR when you get older and the situation applies.
My daughter's viewpoint is that she wants me alive to be Grannie to her daughter. I want your hypothetical grandchildren to be healthy and have healthy parents and grandparents. My father was orphaned at 3 because of the Spanish flu. Lots of children were orphaned in the early stages of the Covid pandemic. And more lost grandparents they loved.
But that was a very personal attack, which is frowned on in the forums. I don't want you locked in your personal hell, assuming you end up there. But I also don't want children's parents and grandparents dead when they could be healthy if we as a society took reasonable precautions.
And now I'm dealing with pedantics who keep going "well actually, I went to a big box store, so there wasn't lockdowns, therefore that couldn't happen."
I blame the people who refused to follow the rules, and those who complained about the rules as the reason for the outcome we have had. The echo chamber of vaccine sceptics and people who didn't want to wear masks created a "safe space" for people to be self centered idiots and drew out the pandemic for the rest of us. I am not giving amnesty to the lowest denominator of society.
#1 - not actually very dense in Florida. Certainly denser than Montana, but there's nowhere in Florida approaching NYC levels of density. #2 - Florida got pretty lucky in the first wave. Was certainly not anything policy or behavior-wise in March 2020. Excluding that first wave that hit New York very hard and you'll see Florida is no shining star. #3 - you probably are, but particularly with Florida, be sure to look at all-cause mortality because fudging the covid numbers to try to make it look better than it really was started pretty early here.I blame the people who refused to follow the rules, and those who complained about the rules as the reason for the outcome we have had. The echo chamber of vaccine sceptics and people who didn't want to wear masks created a "safe space" for people to be self centered idiots and drew out the pandemic for the rest of us. I am not giving amnesty to the lowest denominator of society.
If this truly were the case, wouldn't Florida be an outlier at the top of every metric? Older, MAGA populations packed tightly into retirement communities, in a state that gave the middle finger to CDC guidance, and the source of much ridicule among these very forums. Not to mention, where many other MAGA people chose to go for vacation since other states were still implementing COVID restrictions. Not only should they have been rapidly spreading it amongst themselves, but other people were bringing it in from all over the U.S.
Florida's excess mortality should be through the roof based on everything that's been touted, but the numbers just aren't there. What am I missing?
If I died from covid next week, it would suck, but so what? Eventually, we're all going to die from something, anyway. My family would get another $100K in life insurance benefits to use to buy stocks at discount prices. Pretty sure, though, my risk of dying by getting run over by a car is way, way higher than dying from covid, given that I ride everywhere on my bike in a city where distracted driving is pretty much the norm.
If you died from Covid next week because you didn't take reasonable precautions, you would leave behind a grieving family (I assume they love you) who would also be mad at you because you didn't take reasonable precautions. And believe me, the insurance money wouldn't make them feel better. As I've written here before, my Dad lost his parents when he was 3, to the Spanish Flu. There was enough insurance to see him and his brother through University during the Depression. But he often said he would have much rather his parents lived. Unfortunately they were in the high risk age group for that pandemic.
But we are taking 'reasonable precautions'. Both my wife and I have been vaccinated 5x already, and we are both more than willing to get vaccinated again if and when another vaccine becomes available. That seems like more than enough to me. We're not looking for a 100% guarantee, because we know that's not possible. 5-doses of highly effective vaccines seems fine to me. I'm comfortable with the odds on this bet. As I said, my chances of getting killed by a distracted driver seem much higher than those of dying from covid, as a fully vaccinated healthy person. YMMV.
It's interesting that more attention isn't being paid to a recent study at the University of Würzburg (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.07.22281982v1), which appears to show significantly higher rates of adverse reactions and subsequent inability of healthcare professionals to perform their jobs, after receiving the newer bivalent, as opposed to the monovalent, covid-19 booster shots.
It's interesting that more attention isn't being paid to a recent study at the University of Würzburg (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.07.22281982v1), which appears to show significantly higher rates of adverse reactions and subsequent inability of healthcare professionals to perform their jobs, after receiving the newer bivalent, as opposed to the monovalent, covid-19 booster shots.
Well, it is a preprint and a very small sample size. So I’m glad it’s not getting a huge amount of press until it has been peer reviewed and the results have been replicated.
That study does not mean, "vaccines bad". It actually means our immune systems is reacting to the bivalent stronger than the monovalent. That's a good thing. That is what we want to happen.It's interesting that more attention isn't being paid to a recent study at the University of Würzburg (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.07.22281982v1), which appears to show significantly higher rates of adverse reactions and subsequent inability of healthcare professionals to perform their jobs, after receiving the newer bivalent, as opposed to the monovalent, covid-19 booster shots.
Well, it is a preprint and a very small sample size. So I’m glad it’s not getting a huge amount of press until it has been peer reviewed and the results have been replicated.
Totally agree it's good that a small, preliminary study like this is NOT getting big publicity...yet? I'm just surprised that anti-vaxxers and certain media outlets aren't all over a story like this, since it confirms their preferred "vaccines bad" narrative.
That study does not mean, "vaccines bad". It actually means our immune systems is reacting to the bivalent stronger than the monovalent. That's a good thing. That is what we want to happen.It's interesting that more attention isn't being paid to a recent study at the University of Würzburg (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.07.22281982v1), which appears to show significantly higher rates of adverse reactions and subsequent inability of healthcare professionals to perform their jobs, after receiving the newer bivalent, as opposed to the monovalent, covid-19 booster shots.
Well, it is a preprint and a very small sample size. So I’m glad it’s not getting a huge amount of press until it has been peer reviewed and the results have been replicated.
Totally agree it's good that a small, preliminary study like this is NOT getting big publicity...yet? I'm just surprised that anti-vaxxers and certain media outlets aren't all over a story like this, since it confirms their preferred "vaccines bad" narrative.
Got the new booster last week. Felt fine. Maybe a little tired. DH had a headache the next day. The really good news is the hives I got with my first booster have not come back.
I did ask our family doctor about a booster for our kids and she said it was totally up to us. She felt risks of COVID (specifically these variants) were very low for them and likely equal to the vaccine. She said she did not give her kids another booster. This was back in late Sept and she said she was most concerned about Flu this year. So in our house the adults got flu and COVID shots this season and kids only got flu.
Got the new booster last week. Felt fine. Maybe a little tired. DH had a headache the next day. The really good news is the hives I got with my first booster have not come back.
I did ask our family doctor about a booster for our kids and she said it was totally up to us. She felt risks of COVID (specifically these variants) were very low for them and likely equal to the vaccine. She said she did not give her kids another booster. This was back in late Sept and she said she was most concerned about Flu this year. So in our house the adults got flu and COVID shots this season and kids only got flu.
same here
Got the new booster last week. Felt fine. Maybe a little tired. DH had a headache the next day. The really good news is the hives I got with my first booster have not come back.Schools are a hot spot for transmission of anything. Both times I got COVID was because of our kids bringing it home. Adults can often move away from someone coughing, kids are stuck in their seats. I do not understand the attitude that kids are at low risk for these variants, it is simple not supported by the facts. Kids do get infected and they do pass it along. If nothing else, don't you not want them to miss a week of school, as the CDC recommendeds if you get infected?
I did ask our family doctor about a booster for our kids and she said it was totally up to us. She felt risks of COVID (specifically these variants) were very low for them and likely equal to the vaccine. She said she did not give her kids another booster. This was back in late Sept and she said she was most concerned about Flu this year. So in our house the adults got flu and COVID shots this season and kids only got flu.
Well sure they get it, but it’s not serious. The conversation with the physician was about risk. The risk of severe illness is low for them and the risks of the vaccine are low. But both of them are risks.Got the new booster last week. Felt fine. Maybe a little tired. DH had a headache the next day. The really good news is the hives I got with my first booster have not come back.Schools are a hot spot for transmission of anything. Both times I got COVID was because of our kids bringing it home. Adults can often move away from someone coughing, kids are stuck in their seats. I do not understand the attitude that kids are at low risk for these variants, it is simple not supported by the facts. Kids do get infected and they do pass it along. If nothing else, don't you not want them to miss a week of school, as the CDC recommendeds if you get infected?
I did ask our family doctor about a booster for our kids and she said it was totally up to us. She felt risks of COVID (specifically these variants) were very low for them and likely equal to the vaccine. She said she did not give her kids another booster. This was back in late Sept and she said she was most concerned about Flu this year. So in our house the adults got flu and COVID shots this season and kids only got flu.
I do not understand the attitude that kids are at low risk for these variants, it is simple not supported by the facts.
And actually it is supported by “the facts”, there is plenty of data now that shows that hospitalization or death from COVID is extremely rare for kids. And my own experience is that when my son had it he had a case of the sniffles.
I do not understand the attitude that kids are at low risk for these variants, it is simple not supported by the facts.
And actually it is supported by “the facts”, there is plenty of data now that shows that hospitalization or death from COVID is extremely rare for kids. And my own experience is that when my son had it he had a case of the sniffles.
afaik, no one in my family has had actual covid yet.Got the new booster last week. Felt fine. Maybe a little tired. DH had a headache the next day. The really good news is the hives I got with my first booster have not come back.
I did ask our family doctor about a booster for our kids and she said it was totally up to us. She felt risks of COVID (specifically these variants) were very low for them and likely equal to the vaccine. She said she did not give her kids another booster. This was back in late Sept and she said she was most concerned about Flu this year. So in our house the adults got flu and COVID shots this season and kids only got flu.
same here
Just curious and totally unscientific - had you guys already had covid? The bivalent knocked me on my *ss for 24 hours, like probably the worst I've felt since I was hospitalized with post viral complications from the flu in 2017.
One other guy at my office also felt awful. It turns out that of the 40 people we work with, he and I were the only two who hadn't caught it yet. We figured it was making our immune systems work overtime.
Do you have any idea what the chances of that type of outcome are? I mean, if long covid was a highly-likely outcome in otherwise healthy children, it would make sense to be more cautious. Based on things I've read, though, my impression is that the chances of healthy children coming down with a serious case of long covid are pretty low. Do you have reason to believe otherwise, Steve?I do not understand the attitude that kids are at low risk for these variants, it is simple not supported by the facts.
And actually it is supported by “the facts”, there is plenty of data now that shows that hospitalization or death from COVID is extremely rare for kids. And my own experience is that when my son had it he had a case of the sniffles.
I'm glad that your son got over it without problems. There's plenty of evidence that hospitalization and death is not the only outcome of concern for kids (or adults) though, many people aren't as lucky.
Dying of covid is a pretty terrible way to go, and it's awesome that kids aren't in a high risk category for that . . . but having a year or more of your life disrupted due to long covid also doesn't sound all that great.
Rytter adds, "Because most symptoms were mild, and the small excess of non-specific symptoms was accompanied by a paradoxical higher quality of life in children who have had COVID-19, the study findings can be considered reassuring.
She concludes, "For most children with non-specific symptoms following COVID-19, the symptoms are more likely to be caused by something other than COVID-19 and, if they are related to COVID-19, they are likely to pass with time."
Do you have any idea what the chances of that type of outcome are? I mean, if long covid was a highly-likely outcome in otherwise healthy children, it would make sense to be more cautious. Based on things I've read, though, my impression is that the chances of healthy children coming down with a serious case of long covid are pretty low. Do you have reason to believe otherwise, Steve?I do not understand the attitude that kids are at low risk for these variants, it is simple not supported by the facts.
And actually it is supported by “the facts”, there is plenty of data now that shows that hospitalization or death from COVID is extremely rare for kids. And my own experience is that when my son had it he had a case of the sniffles.
I'm glad that your son got over it without problems. There's plenty of evidence that hospitalization and death is not the only outcome of concern for kids (or adults) though, many people aren't as lucky.
Dying of covid is a pretty terrible way to go, and it's awesome that kids aren't in a high risk category for that . . . but having a year or more of your life disrupted due to long covid also doesn't sound all that great.
Kids do get long Covid, but it seems uncommon, data reveal (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/06/kids-do-get-long-covid-it-seems-uncommon-data-reveal)QuoteRytter adds, "Because most symptoms were mild, and the small excess of non-specific symptoms was accompanied by a paradoxical higher quality of life in children who have had COVID-19, the study findings can be considered reassuring.
She concludes, "For most children with non-specific symptoms following COVID-19, the symptoms are more likely to be caused by something other than COVID-19 and, if they are related to COVID-19, they are likely to pass with time."
Do you have any idea what the chances of that type of outcome are? I mean, if long covid was a highly-likely outcome in otherwise healthy children, it would make sense to be more cautious. Based on things I've read, though, my impression is that the chances of healthy children coming down with a serious case of long covid are pretty low. Do you have reason to believe otherwise, Steve?I do not understand the attitude that kids are at low risk for these variants, it is simple not supported by the facts.
And actually it is supported by “the facts”, there is plenty of data now that shows that hospitalization or death from COVID is extremely rare for kids. And my own experience is that when my son had it he had a case of the sniffles.
I'm glad that your son got over it without problems. There's plenty of evidence that hospitalization and death is not the only outcome of concern for kids (or adults) though, many people aren't as lucky.
Dying of covid is a pretty terrible way to go, and it's awesome that kids aren't in a high risk category for that . . . but having a year or more of your life disrupted due to long covid also doesn't sound all that great.
Kids do get long Covid, but it seems uncommon, data reveal (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/06/kids-do-get-long-covid-it-seems-uncommon-data-reveal)QuoteRytter adds, "Because most symptoms were mild, and the small excess of non-specific symptoms was accompanied by a paradoxical higher quality of life in children who have had COVID-19, the study findings can be considered reassuring.
She concludes, "For most children with non-specific symptoms following COVID-19, the symptoms are more likely to be caused by something other than COVID-19 and, if they are related to COVID-19, they are likely to pass with time."
Do you have any idea what the chances of that type of outcome are? I mean, if long covid was a highly-likely outcome in otherwise healthy children, it would make sense to be more cautious. Based on things I've read, though, my impression is that the chances of healthy children coming down with a serious case of long covid are pretty low. Do you have reason to believe otherwise, Steve?I do not understand the attitude that kids are at low risk for these variants, it is simple not supported by the facts.
And actually it is supported by “the facts”, there is plenty of data now that shows that hospitalization or death from COVID is extremely rare for kids. And my own experience is that when my son had it he had a case of the sniffles.
I'm glad that your son got over it without problems. There's plenty of evidence that hospitalization and death is not the only outcome of concern for kids (or adults) though, many people aren't as lucky.
Dying of covid is a pretty terrible way to go, and it's awesome that kids aren't in a high risk category for that . . . but having a year or more of your life disrupted due to long covid also doesn't sound all that great.
Kids do get long Covid, but it seems uncommon, data reveal (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/06/kids-do-get-long-covid-it-seems-uncommon-data-reveal)QuoteRytter adds, "Because most symptoms were mild, and the small excess of non-specific symptoms was accompanied by a paradoxical higher quality of life in children who have had COVID-19, the study findings can be considered reassuring.
She concludes, "For most children with non-specific symptoms following COVID-19, the symptoms are more likely to be caused by something other than COVID-19 and, if they are related to COVID-19, they are likely to pass with time."
Got the new booster last week. Felt fine. Maybe a little tired. DH had a headache the next day. The really good news is the hives I got with my first booster have not come back.
I did ask our family doctor about a booster for our kids and she said it was totally up to us. She felt risks of COVID (specifically these variants) were very low for them and likely equal to the vaccine. She said she did not give her kids another booster. This was back in late Sept and she said she was most concerned about Flu this year. So in our house the adults got flu and COVID shots this season and kids only got flu.
same here
Just curious and totally unscientific - had you guys already had covid? The bivalent knocked me on my *ss for 24 hours, like probably the worst I've felt since I was hospitalized with post viral complications from the flu in 2017.
One other guy at my office also felt awful. It turns out that of the 40 people we work with, he and I were the only two who hadn't caught it yet. We figured it was making our immune systems work overtime.
Got the new booster last week. Felt fine. Maybe a little tired. DH had a headache the next day. The really good news is the hives I got with my first booster have not come back.
I did ask our family doctor about a booster for our kids and she said it was totally up to us. She felt risks of COVID (specifically these variants) were very low for them and likely equal to the vaccine. She said she did not give her kids another booster. This was back in late Sept and she said she was most concerned about Flu this year. So in our house the adults got flu and COVID shots this season and kids only got flu.
same here
Just curious and totally unscientific - had you guys already had covid? The bivalent knocked me on my *ss for 24 hours, like probably the worst I've felt since I was hospitalized with post viral complications from the flu in 2017.
One other guy at my office also felt awful. It turns out that of the 40 people we work with, he and I were the only two who hadn't caught it yet. We figured it was making our immune systems work overtime.
Observations on recent long international travel (2 international flights over 3 continents & 2 domestic flights). It seems like more people are wearing masks in December than they were the last time I flew (late August). LOTS of coughing on board!
Anyone dealing with "long COVID"? Relative still has no smell or taste going on over a year for example.
I finally did a little reading, and it looks like my sense of smelling cigarette smoke can be a side effect of COVID for some? I notice it the most later in the day. Not related to where I am, or what I'm wearing. Nobody close to me smokes... Not everyday. I smelled it for a short time today, but did not for most of the day. Other days I smell it most of the day regardless of where and what I'm wearing.
Anyone dealing with "long COVID"? Relative still has no smell or taste going on over a year for example.
I finally did a little reading, and it looks like my sense of smelling cigarette smoke can be a side effect of COVID for some? I notice it the most later in the day. Not related to where I am, or what I'm wearing. Nobody close to me smokes... Not everyday. I smelled it for a short time today, but did not for most of the day. Other days I smell it most of the day regardless of where and what I'm wearing.
I had a similar "smelling cigarette smoke" experience off and on a few months ago, well before I tested positive for Covid.
It was odd. And Covid was odd. I've been sick, hungover, food poisoned, you name it, but I've never felt quite like that.
Yes, for the most part. I don't smell smoke anymore, thankfully.Anyone dealing with "long COVID"? Relative still has no smell or taste going on over a year for example.
I finally did a little reading, and it looks like my sense of smelling cigarette smoke can be a side effect of COVID for some? I notice it the most later in the day. Not related to where I am, or what I'm wearing. Nobody close to me smokes... Not everyday. I smelled it for a short time today, but did not for most of the day. Other days I smell it most of the day regardless of where and what I'm wearing.
I had a similar "smelling cigarette smoke" experience off and on a few months ago, well before I tested positive for Covid.
It was odd. And Covid was odd. I've been sick, hungover, food poisoned, you name it, but I've never felt quite like that.
But the symptoms went away - eventually? I hope so.
It does surprise me how few people wear masks, especially at high-volume, low-ventilation places (like airports that I don't believe have been renovated to have better airflow) when it seems so easy.
It's especially stark for me at airports, where we go through so much security theater that is known to essentially ineffective (I still remember the report from just a few years ago that the TSA failed to detect something around 90% of test-bombs?) and yet is far more intrusive than masks.
Not sure why anyone is eager to fly anywhere for all those kinds of reasons.
But otherwise I just can't quite put my finger on why people are so much more willing to go through that than to put an effective mask on.
Not sure why anyone is eager to fly anywhere for all those kinds of reasons.Person A
Not sure why anyone is eager to fly anywhere for all those kinds of reasons.
Given their current massive daily infection rates in the millions, I'm hoping that mutations/variants from China won't extend the covid problems.
Given their current massive daily infection rates in the millions, I'm hoping that mutations/variants from China won't extend the covid problems.
Did China finally give up on zero Covid, or what's going on there?
My 99 year old grandfather had COVID a few weeks before Christmas. He said he had a runny nose and was tired for about 48 hours. I guess that's the benefit of five COVID vaccines and all his gym visits. We are so thankful.
I agree! He did not take paxlovid. He does not have health problems other than high blood pressure which he’s had for decades.My 99 year old grandfather had COVID a few weeks before Christmas. He said he had a runny nose and was tired for about 48 hours. I guess that's the benefit of five COVID vaccines and all his gym visits. We are so thankful.
It's such a crapshoot on how it affects different people...I've also had 5 vaccines and exercise daily, am less than half his age, and I still spent a week in bed (even with paxlovid).
I agree! He did not take paxlovid. He does not have health problems other than high blood pressure which he’s had for decades.My 99 year old grandfather had COVID a few weeks before Christmas. He said he had a runny nose and was tired for about 48 hours. I guess that's the benefit of five COVID vaccines and all his gym visits. We are so thankful.
It's such a crapshoot on how it affects different people...I've also had 5 vaccines and exercise daily, am less than half his age, and I still spent a week in bed (even with paxlovid).
If it makes you feel any better, DH and I had our flu shots in early Oct but still got the flu in late Nov and we’re down and out for a week. I ran a fever for three days and just felt like poo. DH had a terrible cough. We haven’t been that sick for years,
So it all seems like a crapshoot to me!
Not sure why anyone is eager to fly anywhere for all those kinds of reasons.I hear ya! Im suppose to fly overseas (Europe) in a couple of weeks and seriously thinking of postponing a month or 2 until this new varient is lower. I have an autoimmune disease that may be seriously impacted if I got covid (and am part of a study for that) so even though fully vaxxed and boosted am a bit hesitant to get on a flying Petri dish for many hours.
Out of curiosity, is covid still "a thing" in gen pop in the US? Our (Norway's) "CDC" estimated around 2-300k infections / week at mom in a population of 5.4 million, hospitalizations due to RSV, general flu and covid (to a lesser extent) are through the roof, death numbers from covid this year have been much higher since "after" the pandemic when all restrictions were lifted in Feb last year. Excess mortality in 2022 was much higher than in a very long time, but it was barely mentioned in the news. Pretty much noone cares at all. If you're sick, your sick and noone cares if it's covid, the flu, RSV or something else.
Regarding the recent debate of wether travelers from China should requrire proof of -ve tests or not, our "CDC" just said that we're already swimming in a sea of covid infections so a few travellers from China more or less is not gonna make any meaningfull difference so a test requirement makes no sense.
Masking is virtually non-existent and has been so since Feb last year.
With the widespread availability of home test kits, any reported case rates are pretty meaningless.
When our family of 8 all got COVID over the summer, my wife and I were the only ones to get positive home tests and I was the only one to get a positive test at a drive-thru pharmacy. So, 1 case of 8 was counted for any official statistics. Of course, none of us went to the doctor or anything because it was no more severe than a normal cold. Most of our kids just got the sniffles for a day or two.
My wife has been sick for almost two weeks now - probably the flu. She did take a few COVID tests but they were all negative. I did get a flu shot this year and so far haven't been sick. It's been hitting most of our kids as well now.
Yeah I'm very curious about the actual numbers in China since there does seem to be a cover up. Last I heard (around Dec 25) that there was approx 250 million new cases there in the 2 weeks or so after they eased restrictions. Curious what it is now and if any new varients have sprung up. Apparently most new cases in the US are now a new varient (XX..something something) and seems it might be more transmissible and better able to evade vaccines. I'll keep my mask for now ;-)!Given their current massive daily infection rates in the millions, I'm hoping that mutations/variants from China won't extend the covid problems.
Did China finally give up on zero Covid, or what's going on there?
Yes. Basically, everyone in China is going to catch COVID now - especially with Chinese New Year approaching on January 22nd. That's when most people travel home to see relatives. So, you've got hundreds of millions of people traveling by plane, train, bus, etc. all over the country. The rest of the world has clearly shown that COVID vaccines don't really prevent infection and spread - just reduce severity of the infection. Couple that with the lower the efficacy of the Chinese vaccines and they're seeing a huge spike in cases; not that any official numbers from the government will ever show that. They have to save face after all.
Has anyone known someone (or been the someone) who got a surprise positive on a RAT (not a PCR)?
I'm just curious because I realized that asymptomatic home testing had been an unquestioned and accepted practice in my community, but then I also realized I had never once heard of someone that was testing to go to an event or out of courtesy to someone else (i.e. not because they had any reason to suspect they actually had COVID) and was surprised by a positive test. I got the impression that this was a totally possible, if not necessarily frequent, situation, back a year or so ago when tests became more available. But now after my own experience with RATs over the past year I find it hard to believe they would catch an asymptomatic case.
I'm sure it would be quite a shock, but I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone.
Has anyone known someone (or been the someone) who got a surprise positive on a RAT (not a PCR)?
I'm just curious because I realized that asymptomatic home testing had been an unquestioned and accepted practice in my community, but then I also realized I had never once heard of someone that was testing to go to an event or out of courtesy to someone else (i.e. not because they had any reason to suspect they actually had COVID) and was surprised by a positive test. I got the impression that this was a totally possible, if not necessarily frequent, situation, back a year or so ago when tests became more available. But now after my own experience with RATs over the past year I find it hard to believe they would catch an asymptomatic case.
I'm sure it would be quite a shock, but I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone.
Has anyone known someone (or been the someone) who got a surprise positive on a RAT (not a PCR)?
I'm just curious because I realized that asymptomatic home testing had been an unquestioned and accepted practice in my community, but then I also realized I had never once heard of someone that was testing to go to an event or out of courtesy to someone else (i.e. not because they had any reason to suspect they actually had COVID) and was surprised by a positive test. I got the impression that this was a totally possible, if not necessarily frequent, situation, back a year or so ago when tests became more available. But now after my own experience with RATs over the past year I find it hard to believe they would catch an asymptomatic case.
I'm sure it would be quite a shock, but I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone.
One of my coworkers had a surprise positive a few weeks ago. We asked all remote employees to test before flying in for the holiday party. He tested positive the night before with no symptoms.
One of my coworkers had a surprise positive a few weeks ago. We asked all remote employees to test before flying in for the holiday party. He tested positive the night before with no symptoms.
Has anyone known someone (or been the someone) who got a surprise positive on a RAT (not a PCR)?
I'm just curious because I realized that asymptomatic home testing had been an unquestioned and accepted practice in my community, but then I also realized I had never once heard of someone that was testing to go to an event or out of courtesy to someone else (i.e. not because they had any reason to suspect they actually had COVID) and was surprised by a positive test. I got the impression that this was a totally possible, if not necessarily frequent, situation, back a year or so ago when tests became more available. But now after my own experience with RATs over the past year I find it hard to believe they would catch an asymptomatic case.
I'm sure it would be quite a shock, but I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone.
One of my coworkers had a surprise positive a few weeks ago. We asked all remote employees to test before flying in for the holiday party. He tested positive the night before with no symptoms.
I keep hearing stories of hospitals being overrun and older people dying in the streets but am glad to hear it appears to be "fake news". Gotta stop watching Fox News ;-). Im sure it will or has spread wildly there but I assumed China had a pretty hardcore - even mandatory - vax program there along with the previous zero covid policy.
One of my coworkers had a surprise positive a few weeks ago. We asked all remote employees to test before flying in for the holiday party. He tested positive the night before with no symptoms.
As an introvert who hates holiday business parties, I would have claimed positive test whether it was true or not.
One of my coworkers had a surprise positive a few weeks ago. We asked all remote employees to test before flying in for the holiday party. He tested positive the night before with no symptoms.
As an introvert who hates holiday business parties, I would have claimed positive test whether it was true or not.
My first thought on seeing that comment was that the employee probably just didn't want to go to the party, so claimed they'd gotten a positive covid test result.
One of my coworkers had a surprise positive a few weeks ago. We asked all remote employees to test before flying in for the holiday party. He tested positive the night before with no symptoms.
As an introvert who hates holiday business parties, I would have claimed positive test whether it was true or not.
My first thought on seeing that comment was that the employee probably just didn't want to go to the party, so claimed they'd gotten a positive covid test result.
Holiday parties suck balls. It's not surprising that this is happening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDrXt9ECAxM&ab_channel=FoilArmsandHog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDrXt9ECAxM&ab_channel=FoilArmsandHog)
One of my coworkers had a surprise positive a few weeks ago. We asked all remote employees to test before flying in for the holiday party. He tested positive the night before with no symptoms.
As an introvert who hates holiday business parties, I would have claimed positive test whether it was true or not.
My first thought on seeing that comment was that the employee probably just didn't want to go to the party, so claimed they'd gotten a positive covid test result.
Holiday parties suck balls. It's not surprising that this is happening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDrXt9ECAxM&ab_channel=FoilArmsandHog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDrXt9ECAxM&ab_channel=FoilArmsandHog)
Flying in for a holiday party? Oh, hell no. I'm definitely testing positive for that. And I'll need a week off to manage my symptoms.
One of my coworkers had a surprise positive a few weeks ago. We asked all remote employees to test before flying in for the holiday party. He tested positive the night before with no symptoms.
As an introvert who hates holiday business parties, I would have claimed positive test whether it was true or not.
My first thought on seeing that comment was that the employee probably just didn't want to go to the party, so claimed they'd gotten a positive covid test result.
Holiday parties suck balls. It's not surprising that this is happening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDrXt9ECAxM&ab_channel=FoilArmsandHog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDrXt9ECAxM&ab_channel=FoilArmsandHog)
Flying in for a holiday party? Oh, hell no. I'm definitely testing positive for that. And I'll need a week off to manage my symptoms.
My boss had the same thought and asked for a picture of the test :) We also had meetings scheduled that week since it is the only week of the year when all employees are in the office. It would have been a dumb week to flake out. It is also the week that boss gives out bonus checks.
Has anyone known someone (or been the someone) who got a surprise positive on a RAT (not a PCR)?
I'm just curious because I realized that asymptomatic home testing had been an unquestioned and accepted practice in my community, but then I also realized I had never once heard of someone that was testing to go to an event or out of courtesy to someone else (i.e. not because they had any reason to suspect they actually had COVID) and was surprised by a positive test. I got the impression that this was a totally possible, if not necessarily frequent, situation, back a year or so ago when tests became more available. But now after my own experience with RATs over the past year I find it hard to believe they would catch an asymptomatic case.
I'm sure it would be quite a shock, but I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone.
Has anyone known someone (or been the someone) who got a surprise positive on a RAT (not a PCR)?
I'm just curious because I realized that asymptomatic home testing had been an unquestioned and accepted practice in my community, but then I also realized I had never once heard of someone that was testing to go to an event or out of courtesy to someone else (i.e. not because they had any reason to suspect they actually had COVID) and was surprised by a positive test. I got the impression that this was a totally possible, if not necessarily frequent, situation, back a year or so ago when tests became more available. But now after my own experience with RATs over the past year I find it hard to believe they would catch an asymptomatic case.
I'm sure it would be quite a shock, but I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone.
In the summer when I had a birthday party for DH we asked everyone (about 50ppl) to test before coming (2 cancer patients at the party). We had one asymptomatic positive test so had to ask a whole group (travelling together) not to come. A friend’s partner was symptomatic and tested positive and he decided not to risk it and did not come. Thankfully, nobody got sick after the party.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Has anyone known someone (or been the someone) who got a surprise positive on a RAT (not a PCR)?
I'm just curious because I realized that asymptomatic home testing had been an unquestioned and accepted practice in my community, but then I also realized I had never once heard of someone that was testing to go to an event or out of courtesy to someone else (i.e. not because they had any reason to suspect they actually had COVID) and was surprised by a positive test. I got the impression that this was a totally possible, if not necessarily frequent, situation, back a year or so ago when tests became more available. But now after my own experience with RATs over the past year I find it hard to believe they would catch an asymptomatic case.
I'm sure it would be quite a shock, but I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone.
In the summer when I had a birthday party for DH we asked everyone (about 50ppl) to test before coming (2 cancer patients at the party). We had one asymptomatic positive test so had to ask a whole group (travelling together) not to come. A friend’s partner was symptomatic and tested positive and he decided not to risk it and did not come. Thankfully, nobody got sick after the party.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When I was pretty sure that I had covid, I did four tests over two days. Three came back negative. My impression was that false negatives are much more of a problem that false positives.
For Omicron, I am wondering if it is/was related to the timing, which is why our schools "request" that you test your kids 2 days apart.Has anyone known someone (or been the someone) who got a surprise positive on a RAT (not a PCR)?
I'm just curious because I realized that asymptomatic home testing had been an unquestioned and accepted practice in my community, but then I also realized I had never once heard of someone that was testing to go to an event or out of courtesy to someone else (i.e. not because they had any reason to suspect they actually had COVID) and was surprised by a positive test. I got the impression that this was a totally possible, if not necessarily frequent, situation, back a year or so ago when tests became more available. But now after my own experience with RATs over the past year I find it hard to believe they would catch an asymptomatic case.
I'm sure it would be quite a shock, but I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone.
In the summer when I had a birthday party for DH we asked everyone (about 50ppl) to test before coming (2 cancer patients at the party). We had one asymptomatic positive test so had to ask a whole group (travelling together) not to come. A friend’s partner was symptomatic and tested positive and he decided not to risk it and did not come. Thankfully, nobody got sick after the party.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When I was pretty sure that I had covid, I did four tests over two days. Three came back negative. My impression was that false negatives are much more of a problem that false positives.
There is clearly plenty of Covid circulating around here. The schools are having trouble getting subs again. I do see an uptick in masking.
I just keep on keeping on. We did go to a movie this month which was a milestone! Who would think that "Puss In Boots" was what would lure me back?? I did see that the theatre claims they've improved ventilation.
My dd - in her 30s - had Covid in April and was medium sick, and again in July and was asymptomatic. This winter she has tested positive for RSV and influenza, had several bad colds and bronchitis twice now. I'm thinking that Covid has really made her vulnerable to respiratory infections.
There is clearly plenty of Covid circulating around here. The schools are having trouble getting subs again. I do see an uptick in masking.
I just keep on keeping on. We did go to a movie this month which was a milestone! Who would think that "Puss In Boots" was what would lure me back?? I did see that the theatre claims they've improved ventilation.
My dd - in her 30s - had Covid in April and was medium sick, and again in July and was asymptomatic. This winter she has tested positive for RSV and influenza, had several bad colds and bronchitis twice now. I'm thinking that Covid has really made her vulnerable to respiratory infections.
Maybe, since many have been social distancing, for going on 3 years now, our natural immunity against common respiratory infections is down?
There is clearly plenty of Covid circulating around here. The schools are having trouble getting subs again. I do see an uptick in masking.
I just keep on keeping on. We did go to a movie this month which was a milestone! Who would think that "Puss In Boots" was what would lure me back?? I did see that the theatre claims they've improved ventilation.
My dd - in her 30s - had Covid in April and was medium sick, and again in July and was asymptomatic. This winter she has tested positive for RSV and influenza, had several bad colds and bronchitis twice now. I'm thinking that Covid has really made her vulnerable to respiratory infections.
Maybe, since many have been social distancing, for going on 3 years now, our natural immunity against common respiratory infections is down?
I've been trying to find studies of the impacts of masking on immune systems. There aren't very many, but what I've been able to find seems to indicate that extended period masking for very young children has a significant negative impact on immunity (and might explain all the children being sick problems that we're seeing right now). For those over 16 though the research I can find seems to indicate that there is very limited negative impact. Even without exposure, learned immunity in adults seems to last for a pretty long time.
I've been discussing this with choir members who are singing in other choirs that meet in person - All reported their choirs' members are distancing (4-6 feet) and well masked (N95 types, not blue or cloth, tight fitting), and well vaccinated (lots with their 3rd booster, the bivalent version). No-one has caught Covid from choir, even though in 2 instances people at choir reported coming down with symptoms and testing positive the next day - i.e. they were probably contagious at choir.
So the combination of vaccination/distancing/masking seems to be pretty effective.
I've been discussing this with choir members who are singing in other choirs that meet in person - All reported their choirs' members are distancing (4-6 feet) and well masked (N95 types, not blue or cloth, tight fitting), and well vaccinated (lots with their 3rd booster, the bivalent version). No-one has caught Covid from choir, even though in 2 instances people at choir reported coming down with symptoms and testing positive the next day - i.e. they were probably contagious at choir.
So the combination of vaccination/distancing/masking seems to be pretty effective.
They're singing with masks on?
I've been discussing this with choir members who are singing in other choirs that meet in person - All reported their choirs' members are distancing (4-6 feet) and well masked (N95 types, not blue or cloth, tight fitting), and well vaccinated (lots with their 3rd booster, the bivalent version). No-one has caught Covid from choir, even though in 2 instances people at choir reported coming down with symptoms and testing positive the next day - i.e. they were probably contagious at choir.
So the combination of vaccination/distancing/masking seems to be pretty effective.
They're singing with masks on?
Oh yes, very well fitting masks. N95/KN95 type. Worn properly. None of the nose exposed nonsense. There are specialty masks for singing if a regular one doesn't work well.
I've been discussing this with choir members who are singing in other choirs that meet in person - All reported their choirs' members are distancing (4-6 feet) and well masked (N95 types, not blue or cloth, tight fitting), and well vaccinated (lots with their 3rd booster, the bivalent version). No-one has caught Covid from choir, even though in 2 instances people at choir reported coming down with symptoms and testing positive the next day - i.e. they were probably contagious at choir.
So the combination of vaccination/distancing/masking seems to be pretty effective.
They're singing with masks on?
Oh yes, very well fitting masks. N95/KN95 type. Worn properly. None of the nose exposed nonsense. There are specialty masks for singing if a regular one doesn't work well.
Huh, I didn't realize that. Singing is so weird and little things can really throw it off . . . I can't sing in tune at all if I'm wearing headphones (for example). Not sure how well it would work with a mask.
I've been discussing this with choir members who are singing in other choirs that meet in person - All reported their choirs' members are distancing (4-6 feet) and well masked (N95 types, not blue or cloth, tight fitting), and well vaccinated (lots with their 3rd booster, the bivalent version). No-one has caught Covid from choir, even though in 2 instances people at choir reported coming down with symptoms and testing positive the next day - i.e. they were probably contagious at choir.
So the combination of vaccination/distancing/masking seems to be pretty effective.
They're singing with masks on?
Oh yes, very well fitting masks. N95/KN95 type. Worn properly. None of the nose exposed nonsense. There are specialty masks for singing if a regular one doesn't work well.
Huh, I didn't realize that. Singing is so weird and little things can really throw it off . . . I can't sing in tune at all if I'm wearing headphones (for example). Not sure how well it would work with a mask.
I can see how headphones could throw someone off. Singing with a mask on is just like talking with a mask on, except that you are singing. The mask may need to be a bit deeper in the chin area so there is more room for jaw movement, but that is basically individual sizing.
Some of the first big spreader events were choirs, so choir members are super careful now.
I heard that China is allowing only highly regulated news reports for overseas info but I figured you guys who are living there probably get the real scoop - or at least get to see what's going on IRL - but I guess not. Kind of scary!I keep hearing stories of hospitals being overrun and older people dying in the streets but am glad to hear it appears to be "fake news". Gotta stop watching Fox News ;-). Im sure it will or has spread wildly there but I assumed China had a pretty hardcore - even mandatory - vax program there along with the previous zero covid policy.
The hospitals are overrun, but that’s because the chinese population has a tendency of going to the hospital for everything. Mild fever? Go to the hospital and get a saline drip. They’re trying to educate people to stay at home if it’s just a low grade fever, but old habits die hard. I think I read somewhere that only 50% of the people hospitalized for COVID actually needed to be in the hospital.
It’s hitting the older folks hard. Most older people aren’t dying in the streets, though there may be cases of homeless folks with COVID or poorer folks who contract COVID who, for whatever reason, can’t access hospital services. I’m pretty sure there are COVID-related excess deaths. You can see it in the numbers provided by funeral homes. Apparently in some areas, there are so many deaths that the funeral homes can’t keep up with cremation demand. This kind of news isn’t really widely or officially published though. The news we see is heavily edited.
I'm personally still on the fence about travelling overseas now, even to Europe, but need to decide asap in order to change my flight to a later date. If I didn't have an auto immune disease I'd probably not be too worried about getting covid while travelling but as it is I'm being more hesitant. Probably no big deal and Im just being a wimp but.... well I AM a wimp ;-).
Any video/audio of your masked choir. I'm fairly curious to hear how a masked choir sounds.
Newest news is that the vast majority of us are going to get the "kraken" variant in the next few months whether we've had the shots or other variants. Good news is for most it's cold-like symptoms.
Newest news is that the vast majority of us are going to get the "kraken" variant in the next few months whether we've had the shots or other variants. Good news is for most it's cold-like symptoms.
So no change from Omicron then?
Said covid deaths up 44% nationwide but that may just be unvaxxed peeps..
Said covid deaths up 44% nationwide but that may just be unvaxxed peeps..
Just a gentle reminder to whomever needs it that not everyone unvaccinated is in that position by choice.
Said covid deaths up 44% nationwide but that may just be unvaxxed peeps..
Just a gentle reminder to whomever needs it that not everyone unvaccinated is in that position by choice.
I would add a second friendly reminder that some people who did get vaccinated are still, despite their best efforts, at very high-risk for complications if they get COVID.
Might be an obvious question, but how reliable are the current stats on Covid if people can self-test and manage mild symptoms themselves at home?
Two of my relatives tested positive for Covid recently. Luckily their only symptoms were like that of a mild cold. They quarantined the entire family at home per protocol. Now they're fine and after testing negative they went back to living their usual life, but they never reported having Covid to any government agency. If it's not required to be reported then how are we to interpret the current percentages of Covid in the population?
Might be an obvious question, but how reliable are the current stats on Covid if people can self-test and manage mild symptoms themselves at home?
Two of my relatives tested positive for Covid recently. Luckily their only symptoms were like that of a mild cold. They quarantined the entire family at home per protocol. Now they're fine and after testing negative they went back to living their usual life, but they never reported having Covid to any government agency. If it's not required to be reported then how are we to interpret the current percentages of Covid in the population?
At this point you just watch the hospitals IMO.
So true! Those who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons can't always live in a bubble for years on end so I think it's up to everyone to do what they can to help protect them. If that means getting vaxxed ourselves, wearing masks and continued social distancing then that's a small sacrifice to make imho.Said covid deaths up 44% nationwide but that may just be unvaxxed peeps..
Just a gentle reminder to whomever needs it that not everyone unvaccinated is in that position by choice.
So true! Those who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons can't always live in a bubble for years on end so I think it's up to everyone to do what they can to help protect them. If that means getting vaxxed ourselves, wearing masks and continued social distancing then that's a small sacrifice to make imho.Said covid deaths up 44% nationwide but that may just be unvaxxed peeps..
Just a gentle reminder to whomever needs it that not everyone unvaccinated is in that position by choice.
No thanks, I won't be doing any of those things thank you very much.
How does one go about "watching hospitals?" It seems to me like data released on hospitalizations related to Covid are inconsistent. Apparently, more than half of people being counted as hospitalized *because* of Covid actually went to the hospital for a completely different reason, and only found out they had Covid as a result of being tested at the hospital. It's hard to make sense of data, when both the numerator and denominator are unclear.
Huh, wow. I'd surely hate to be the reason my cancer-patient stepfather died.So true! Those who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons can't always live in a bubble for years on end so I think it's up to everyone to do what they can to help protect them. If that means getting vaxxed ourselves, wearing masks and continued social distancing then that's a small sacrifice to make imho.Said covid deaths up 44% nationwide but that may just be unvaxxed peeps..
Just a gentle reminder to whomever needs it that not everyone unvaccinated is in that position by choice.
No thanks, I won't be doing any of those things thank you very much.
Sure the various Omicron variants are not that that bad. But that is for young and healthy and vaccinated. If you are old or immunocompromised or not vaccinated for medical reasons they are still bad.
For us, it's not "either/or", it's "both/and". We don't mask or social distance when we are with healthy friends/coworkers who have all had and recovered from COVID. We don't mask when we are outdoors and able to maintain social distance. We eat at restaurants. We invite people to our home and we go over to our friends' homes.
However, we do mask when we are in crowded indoor public spaces where eating is not an activity, like supermarkets or malls or on public transportation. We social distance if we are in public spaces and there are strangers, since we don't know if they are in one of the vulnerable populations. I mean, they're strangers anyway, so there's no need for us to get in their personal space, and I'm okay with extending the personal space guideline to be two meters apart. If we will be interacting with someone who is vulnerable, we will take a RAT to ensure we are COVID-negative.
It's not an all-or-nothing scenario. Use common sense, be considerate of others, and do what is reasonable.
I am recovering from covid. Given the severity of the illness it had to be the newest prevalent variant. My husband was much sicker than I. I was concerned about his blood oxygen so took him to our walk in respiratory clinic. I was well enough to drive him there. Only he went in.Sure the various Omicron variants are not that that bad. But that is for young and healthy and vaccinated. If you are old or immunocompromised or not vaccinated for medical reasons they are still bad.
My wife is young, healthy, vaccinated - and Omicron was still pretty bad. I really feel for anyone starting from a worse position.
Of course I'll do my part!
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?I remember social distancing, and what I am doing is nothing like social distancing. I'm meeting other people, I'm going out and having a social life. I just happen to wear a mask (N95) if I think it's justified for the protection of my health or someone else's health. How long for? As long as a piece of string.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?I remember social distancing, and what I am doing is nothing like social distancing. I'm meeting other people, I'm going out and having a social life. I just happen to wear a mask (N95) if I think it's justified for the protection of my health or someone else's health. How long for? As long as a piece of string.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?I remember social distancing, and what I am doing is nothing like social distancing. I'm meeting other people, I'm going out and having a social life. I just happen to wear a mask (N95) if I think it's justified for the protection of my health or someone else's health. How long for? As long as a piece of string.
Exactly. I'm going out and doing pretty much everything I was doing pre-covid (with the exception of not having been to like a huge indoor arena concert or sporting event yet). Like, how are people somehow swallowing the propaganda that no one who is vaxxed and masks in crowds has left their house in three years?
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?I remember social distancing, and what I am doing is nothing like social distancing. I'm meeting other people, I'm going out and having a social life. I just happen to wear a mask (N95) if I think it's justified for the protection of my health or someone else's health. How long for? As long as a piece of string.
Exactly. I'm going out and doing pretty much everything I was doing pre-covid (with the exception of not having been to like a huge indoor arena concert or sporting event yet). Like, how are people somehow swallowing the propaganda that no one who is vaxxed and masks in crowds has left their house in three years?
I will probably also wear a mask forever on public transport, in airports, other indoors activities with strangers, particularly if crowded. At least unless or until better air ventilation in modern buildings obviates the need. I don't do social distancing anymore. I'll also test whenever necessary, I presume, unless it becomes expensive or hard to obtain them.
I don't think I will ever go in a mall at Christmas without a mask. Or sit in crowded public transit with no open windows. My life has been way nicer without all the colds and sore throats that used to get any time I traveled or attended a large indoor gathering type thing.
If you knowingly, from a position of strength, take actions or inactions that increase the dangers for those that are in a weaker position, what could be said about you?
However, we do mask when we are in crowded indoor public spaces where eating is not an activity, like supermarkets or malls or on public transportation. We social distance if we are in public spaces and there are strangers, since we don't know if they are in one of the vulnerable populations. I mean, they're strangers anyway, so there's no need for us to get in their personal space, and I'm okay with extending the personal space guideline to be two meters apart. If we will be interacting with someone who is vulnerable, we will take a RAT to ensure we are COVID-negative.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
I don't get any say in the matter anymore, exactly because of the a-holes in this world who refused to mask or vaccinate in the first place, and are continuing to do without because, "lol, COVID's here to stay! why's it fucking matter you whiny snowflake!?" COVID didn't have to be a forever thing. SARS outbreaks had been contained and stopped before. Traditions of masking in Asian countries have shown dramatic reductions in air-borne illness transmissions, especially with COVID. Herd immunity with vaccinations have been proven to work if you get enough people on board. We nearly eradicated polio, smallpox, measles.
I have multiple auto-immune diseases. What you describe is the reality I have pretty well had to live under for the past three years and still have to live under for the rest of my life. I never got the benefit of the vaccine. Nor do I get to partake of the effective treatment options available. Nobody ever asked me if this is how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. I didn't used to have to live like a hermit, and while mask mandates were enforced, I was still able to safely leave the house on short excursions. The only thing that changed was COVID. The people who have forced this life on me were all too busy whining about how being asked to be decent human beings in the middle of a deadly fucking pandemic was violating their personal freedom.
Well, you got your fucking precious personal freedom, and you've robbed me and millions of others of their own capacity to socialize and live even remotely normal lives again... and that's just those of us who survived getting sick with it. It's been twenty-two days for me, and still counting, on recovery. It has been the sickest I've been in my life, and that's saying something given my medical history.
So you don't want to wear a mask out in public anymore and think it's pointless and worthless and does nothing to help others, and others who are doing it are fools and COVID's no big deal anymore? Let me translate for you into the basest, crudest language possible to help you understand exactly what you're effectively telling people like me:
FUCK YOU. I HOPE YOUR LIFE IS AS PAINFUL, LONELY, AND MISERABLE AS THE DEATH I WISH UPON YOU.
Do you really think that attitude makes the world a better place?
I sure as shit don't, and I should know. I'm living the consequences of a massive group of people fucking around and behaving like they've gone through life saying exactly that.
As much as I'd love to tell people in this very thread that exact phrase for the callous indifference they've shown myself and others, I can't do that. Nobody deserves to feel like they're worthless garbage who should just shut up and die because heaven forbid you be ever so mildly inconvenienced by something that actually benefits you in the process.
I can't imagine my life being anything but a living nightmare for the rest of my natural born days now, and I can explicitly point out the very behavior and thought processes that has made it as such. My life is nothing but misery and loneliness and inconvenience now, but that's okay! Anything to help people like you tumble through the rest of your life pretending that your actions don't have consequences and living a life unmoored from reality believing that COVID is no big deal and shit like masks and vaccines and staying home when you're sick doesn't actually help anyone.
I am thankful for the people who are still trying. People in this very thread. And I get the fatigue from doing it. Trust me. I wish we had more people like that around us, maybe life wouldn't be so lonely now. But, we live in the heart of MAGA country... so... yup. Compassion and empathy's a tall order in these parts, even within the medical community.
Shane? I really hope you and Gronnie grow up. Your own families deserve better than what you're giving. You deserve better than what you're even giving yourselves.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
I don't get any say in the matter anymore, exactly because of the a-holes in this world who refused to mask or vaccinate in the first place, and are continuing to do without because, "lol, COVID's here to stay! why's it fucking matter you whiny snowflake!?" COVID didn't have to be a forever thing. SARS outbreaks had been contained and stopped before. Traditions of masking in Asian countries have shown dramatic reductions in air-borne illness transmissions, especially with COVID. Herd immunity with vaccinations have been proven to work if you get enough people on board. We nearly eradicated polio, smallpox, measles.
I have multiple auto-immune diseases. What you describe is the reality I have pretty well had to live under for the past three years and still have to live under for the rest of my life. I never got the benefit of the vaccine. Nor do I get to partake of the effective treatment options available. Nobody ever asked me if this is how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. I didn't used to have to live like a hermit, and while mask mandates were enforced, I was still able to safely leave the house on short excursions. The only thing that changed was COVID. The people who have forced this life on me were all too busy whining about how being asked to be decent human beings in the middle of a deadly fucking pandemic was violating their personal freedom.
Well, you got your fucking precious personal freedom, and you've robbed me and millions of others of their own capacity to socialize and live even remotely normal lives again... and that's just those of us who survived getting sick with it. It's been twenty-two days for me, and still counting, on recovery. It has been the sickest I've been in my life, and that's saying something given my medical history.
So you don't want to wear a mask out in public anymore and think it's pointless and worthless and does nothing to help others, and others who are doing it are fools and COVID's no big deal anymore? Let me translate for you into the basest, crudest language possible to help you understand exactly what you're effectively telling people like me:
FUCK YOU. I HOPE YOUR LIFE IS AS PAINFUL, LONELY, AND MISERABLE AS THE DEATH I WISH UPON YOU.
Do you really think that attitude makes the world a better place?
I sure as shit don't, and I should know. I'm living the consequences of a massive group of people fucking around and behaving like they've gone through life saying exactly that.
As much as I'd love to tell people in this very thread that exact phrase for the callous indifference they've shown myself and others, I can't do that. Nobody deserves to feel like they're worthless garbage who should just shut up and die because heaven forbid you be ever so mildly inconvenienced by something that actually benefits you in the process.
I can't imagine my life being anything but a living nightmare for the rest of my natural born days now, and I can explicitly point out the very behavior and thought processes that has made it as such. My life is nothing but misery and loneliness and inconvenience now, but that's okay! Anything to help people like you tumble through the rest of your life pretending that your actions don't have consequences and living a life unmoored from reality believing that COVID is no big deal and shit like masks and vaccines and staying home when you're sick doesn't actually help anyone.
I am thankful for the people who are still trying. People in this very thread. And I get the fatigue from doing it. Trust me. I wish we had more people like that around us, maybe life wouldn't be so lonely now. But, we live in the heart of MAGA country... so... yup. Compassion and empathy's a tall order in these parts, even within the medical community.
Shane? I really hope you and Gronnie grow up. Your own families deserve better than what you're giving. You deserve better than what you're even giving yourselves.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
I don't get any say in the matter anymore, exactly because of the a-holes in this world who refused to mask or vaccinate in the first place, and are continuing to do without because, "lol, COVID's here to stay! why's it fucking matter you whiny snowflake!?" COVID didn't have to be a forever thing. SARS outbreaks had been contained and stopped before. Traditions of masking in Asian countries have shown dramatic reductions in air-borne illness transmissions, especially with COVID. Herd immunity with vaccinations have been proven to work if you get enough people on board. We nearly eradicated polio, smallpox, measles.
I have multiple auto-immune diseases. What you describe is the reality I have pretty well had to live under for the past three years and still have to live under for the rest of my life. I never got the benefit of the vaccine. Nor do I get to partake of the effective treatment options available. Nobody ever asked me if this is how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. I didn't used to have to live like a hermit, and while mask mandates were enforced, I was still able to safely leave the house on short excursions. The only thing that changed was COVID. The people who have forced this life on me were all too busy whining about how being asked to be decent human beings in the middle of a deadly fucking pandemic was violating their personal freedom.
Well, you got your fucking precious personal freedom, and you've robbed me and millions of others of their own capacity to socialize and live even remotely normal lives again... and that's just those of us who survived getting sick with it. It's been twenty-two days for me, and still counting, on recovery. It has been the sickest I've been in my life, and that's saying something given my medical history.
So you don't want to wear a mask out in public anymore and think it's pointless and worthless and does nothing to help others, and others who are doing it are fools and COVID's no big deal anymore? Let me translate for you into the basest, crudest language possible to help you understand exactly what you're effectively telling people like me:
FUCK YOU. I HOPE YOUR LIFE IS AS PAINFUL, LONELY, AND MISERABLE AS THE DEATH I WISH UPON YOU.
Do you really think that attitude makes the world a better place?
I sure as shit don't, and I should know. I'm living the consequences of a massive group of people fucking around and behaving like they've gone through life saying exactly that.
As much as I'd love to tell people in this very thread that exact phrase for the callous indifference they've shown myself and others, I can't do that. Nobody deserves to feel like they're worthless garbage who should just shut up and die because heaven forbid you be ever so mildly inconvenienced by something that actually benefits you in the process.
I can't imagine my life being anything but a living nightmare for the rest of my natural born days now, and I can explicitly point out the very behavior and thought processes that has made it as such. My life is nothing but misery and loneliness and inconvenience now, but that's okay! Anything to help people like you tumble through the rest of your life pretending that your actions don't have consequences and living a life unmoored from reality believing that COVID is no big deal and shit like masks and vaccines and staying home when you're sick doesn't actually help anyone.
I am thankful for the people who are still trying. People in this very thread. And I get the fatigue from doing it. Trust me. I wish we had more people like that around us, maybe life wouldn't be so lonely now. But, we live in the heart of MAGA country... so... yup. Compassion and empathy's a tall order in these parts, even within the medical community.
Shane? I really hope you and Gronnie grow up. Your own families deserve better than what you're giving. You deserve better than what you're even giving yourselves.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?I remember social distancing, and what I am doing is nothing like social distancing. I'm meeting other people, I'm going out and having a social life. I just happen to wear a mask (N95) if I think it's justified for the protection of my health or someone else's health. How long for? As long as a piece of string.
Exactly. I'm going out and doing pretty much everything I was doing pre-covid (with the exception of not having been to like a huge indoor arena concert or sporting event yet). Like, how are people somehow swallowing the propaganda that no one who is vaxxed and masks in crowds has left their house in three years?
It's completely unnecessary to base any assumptions on "propaganda." Right here in this thread, you all are telling the world how you're living your lives:QuoteI will probably also wear a mask forever on public transport, in airports, other indoors activities with strangers, particularly if crowded. At least unless or until better air ventilation in modern buildings obviates the need. I don't do social distancing anymore. I'll also test whenever necessary, I presume, unless it becomes expensive or hard to obtain them.QuoteI don't think I will ever go in a mall at Christmas without a mask. Or sit in crowded public transit with no open windows. My life has been way nicer without all the colds and sore throats that used to get any time I traveled or attended a large indoor gathering type thing.QuoteIf you knowingly, from a position of strength, take actions or inactions that increase the dangers for those that are in a weaker position, what could be said about you?QuoteHowever, we do mask when we are in crowded indoor public spaces where eating is not an activity, like supermarkets or malls or on public transportation. We social distance if we are in public spaces and there are strangers, since we don't know if they are in one of the vulnerable populations. I mean, they're strangers anyway, so there's no need for us to get in their personal space, and I'm okay with extending the personal space guideline to be two meters apart. If we will be interacting with someone who is vulnerable, we will take a RAT to ensure we are COVID-negative.
The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.
And none of that says anything about not leaving our houses for the past 3 years.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
Probably until they have more info about covid/long covid and immunocompromised folks and/or treatments that work again.
I know too many people with variations of long covid to feel comfortable throwing caution to the wind. I also avoid the flu during flu season. In the meantime I continue to do grocery pick up and I stay close to home. When I do go out I wear a good N95.
My kids are now participating in activities and I ask them to put on a mask if kids around them are coughing or sniffling. They do because they love me.
It isn't the end of the world.
The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.
My wife works in Peds. It's WAY worse this year than normal, and most of the Pediatricians privately say the same thing. They also mostly haven't vaccinated their own children even though publicly they have to support and recommend it or risk losing their license.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
Probably until they have more info about covid/long covid and immunocompromised folks and/or treatments that work again.
I know too many people with variations of long covid to feel comfortable throwing caution to the wind. I also avoid the flu during flu season. In the meantime I continue to do grocery pick up and I stay close to home. When I do go out I wear a good N95.
My kids are now participating in activities and I ask them to put on a mask if kids around them are coughing or sniffling. They do because they love me.
It isn't the end of the world.
I totally support your family's right to live exactly as you are. If you're happy with your quality of life, I'm happy for you.
The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
Well, you have to define social distancing - it's a spectrum. Also, do you mean do we mean to social distance for the rest of our lives? Or are you including masking and testing?
Because things that COVID taught me, which are good things:
- There's literally no reason to go to work sick. I can work at home. Seriously, nobody wants you at work sick. Cold, flu, COVID, whatever.
- I will wear a mask on a plane FOREVER. When I think of the number of years I picked up an illness on planes over the holidays, because some dude was coughing behind me (come to think of it, I got COVID while waiting to board a plane when I dude basically coughed and talked loudly in my face. I was masked, he was not, and we learned ON THE PLANE that he'd "just had COVID".)
- If I have to be out and about shopping, or whatever, when I have a cold, I'm totally wearing a mask. Ditto in crowded spaces.
- Socializing. Most of my socializing is done outdoors anyway (running friends, park potlucks).
- My group of friends and family have learned from COVID to ... not send their kids to someone else's house if they are sick. Likewise, when I go visit family (particularly the immuno compromised), I make sure to have COVID tests with me and masks. If we get sick and test positive, it's off to quarantine in a hotel. Our parents are in their 80s, so duh.
- I recently attended some holiday dinners and parties indoors ... it was before RSV, COVID, and flu really took hold locally. The sick people did not go! My DH had a cold, and he stayed home. Ditto for the wife of a friend (she had COVID, he was long over it).
The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
Well, you have to define social distancing - it's a spectrum. Also, do you mean do we mean to social distance for the rest of our lives? Or are you including masking and testing?
Because things that COVID taught me, which are good things:
- There's literally no reason to go to work sick. I can work at home. Seriously, nobody wants you at work sick. Cold, flu, COVID, whatever.
- I will wear a mask on a plane FOREVER. When I think of the number of years I picked up an illness on planes over the holidays, because some dude was coughing behind me (come to think of it, I got COVID while waiting to board a plane when I dude basically coughed and talked loudly in my face. I was masked, he was not, and we learned ON THE PLANE that he'd "just had COVID".)
- If I have to be out and about shopping, or whatever, when I have a cold, I'm totally wearing a mask. Ditto in crowded spaces.
- Socializing. Most of my socializing is done outdoors anyway (running friends, park potlucks).
- My group of friends and family have learned from COVID to ... not send their kids to someone else's house if they are sick. Likewise, when I go visit family (particularly the immuno compromised), I make sure to have COVID tests with me and masks. If we get sick and test positive, it's off to quarantine in a hotel. Our parents are in their 80s, so duh.
- I recently attended some holiday dinners and parties indoors ... it was before RSV, COVID, and flu really took hold locally. The sick people did not go! My DH had a cold, and he stayed home. Ditto for the wife of a friend (she had COVID, he was long over it).
I totally support your right to live your life exactly as you are. We've also changed for the better, I think, in that, since Covid started, we are much more careful about spreading any kind of virus to other people, especially if they're older or have compromised immune systems. If any of us are sick, even if it's just a cold, we don't go to any enclosed places, where we might infect anyone else. That seems like a positive change that's come about, because of the pandemic.
For some people, I guess, it's no loss to wear an n95 mask on plane flights. In my family, we've taken dozens of flights over the past 15 years, and I can't remember our ever getting sick after flying. Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories. All three of us were fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. After like two years of trying as hard as possible to stay away from other humans, it felt REALLY good to be vaccinated, and so, be able to make social connections again.
I get it that many other people are in very different positions from us healthwise, and totally respect their rights to continue living more cautiously. My family and I are up to date on our covid booster shots. If one of the pharmaceutical companies comes out with a new covid booster vaccine, sometime next spring, like we've heard, we'll be the first ones in line to get them, not so much to protect ourselves, but mostly to help protect other, more vulnerable, people. We don't want to give our elderly relatives and friends covid, or anything else, for that matter.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
I don't get any say in the matter anymore, exactly because of the a-holes in this world who refused to mask or vaccinate in the first place, and are continuing to do without because, "lol, COVID's here to stay! why's it fucking matter you whiny snowflake!?" COVID didn't have to be a forever thing. SARS outbreaks had been contained and stopped before. Traditions of masking in Asian countries have shown dramatic reductions in air-borne illness transmissions, especially with COVID. Herd immunity with vaccinations have been proven to work if you get enough people on board. We nearly eradicated polio, smallpox, measles...
Well, you got your fucking precious personal freedom, and you've robbed me and millions of others of their own capacity to socialize and live even remotely normal lives again... and that's just those of us who survived getting sick with it. It's been twenty-two days for me, and still counting, on recovery. It has been the sickest I've been in my life, and that's saying something given my medical history...
[MOD NOTE: This is an intentional misquote by Shane to make it look like Daley was addressing him]
FUCK YOU. I HOPE YOUR LIFE IS AS PAINFUL, LONELY, AND MISERABLE AS THE DEATH I WISH UPON YOU.
So… wearing a mask and taking a few reasonable precautions from time to time is “continuing to live that way”?You're more than welcome to take any "reasonable precautions" you like, Kris. Nobody's stopping you.
The horror…
So… wearing a mask and taking a few reasonable precautions from time to time is “continuing to live that way”?You're more than welcome to take any "reasonable precautions" you like, Kris. Nobody's stopping you.
The horror…
Back around the beginning of the pandemic, when they were still trying to do contact tracing, I remember reading about a scientific study that found that the most likely place people got infected with covid was - not supermarkets, not on public transit - but *in their own homes, from people they lived with*. Given that fact, maybe, "reasonable precautions" should be for people to either live alone, or to mask up, whenever family members or roommates are in their home with them. Anybody not willing to wear an n-95 mask in their own home, at least whenever kids or spouses are around, is a complete "selfish asshole," right?
Nobody's telling you how to live your life. You're free to mask, test, distance, or whatever other precautions you want to take. Why the strong desire to push your way of life on the rest of us? Like I said above, if you had a plausible plan you could explain to us that if we continued doing x,y,z social distancing practices, for x months, years, or whatever, we could hope for some tangible change in our situation regarding covid, I would be all ears. As it is, though, it seems like you're just proposing that we should all avoid crowds? concerts? movies? crowded cafes? restaurants? and bars? And for how long? Forever, right? No, thank you. You're welcome to do that. It won't bother me, at all. But please don't try to shove your way of life down my and my family's throats.
Looking back through his posts I'm having a real hard time finding anything Shane has said on this topic that is unreasonable. Being fully vaxed and staunchly supportive of more vulnerable people's right to protect themselves by wearing masks and opting to work from home sounds a lot more like an ally than an enemy.Thank you, Samuel. My family and I spent over two years not doing many of the things we love, not because we were particularly afraid of catching covid ourselves, but mostly because we wanted to protect other, more vulnerable, people in our community. We purposely haven't visited my almost 80 year old mother for going on 4 years now, because we haven't felt comfortable with the risk that we might possibly infect her with anything. We've got plans to visit my mom later this year, but those 4 years we missed out on are never coming back. My daughter missed out on 4 years of seeing her grandmother, in person, and my mom missed out on seeing her granddaughter grow from being a little girl into a young woman. Nobody's going to be able to convince me that that was just "a minor inconvenience." My mom, me, my wife, and our daughter are all fully vaccinated and boosted against covid, so we're going to meet up, in person, in 2023, maybe even ride in a car together and sit together in a restaurant, without masks on. It seems like we should be able to choose to do that, without getting dragged by a bunch of people wishing for my death and calling me a selfish asshole, because we're not passing their covid purity test.
This is a tricky issue.
We had a window to control Covid, and that window has long past. It's going to be floating around forever. It no longer seems like it's going to be possible for even the most careful person to avoid catching it (probably multiple times).
The same assholes who refuse to vaccinate and had to travel the world during the pandemic are still here. And yep, it's due to their actions that covid is now a permeant fixture in the world. And they have invented all sorts of new assholery to continue being giant assholes.
Totally get where you're coming from, StarBright. We've got a close family member who went through organ transplant surgery, right in the middle of the pandemic. In spring 2021, DW flew across the country wearing an N-95 mask on the plane, and for 3 months she lived at her family member's house to help him recover from surgery, all the time wearing an N-95 mask, every time she went out of the house, for any reason. We've got another friend who is a single mom and who is also caring for elderly parents, at the same time as she's caring for her teenage daughter. Those two friends and relatives have different risk profiles from me and my family. I totally support and would never criticize them for living their lives differently from us. It kind of bewilders me, though, how some people in this thread feel totally justified in wishing for my death and other horrible things to happen to me, all because I am "living with covid" and "getting back to normal" sooner than they feel comfortable doing themselves. I'm fine with other people being more cautious than my family and I are. Why is it so hard for people who are in different circumstances, and therefore living differently from us, to accept that not everyone needs to be as careful as they are being?For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
Probably until they have more info about covid/long covid and immunocompromised folks and/or treatments that work again.
I know too many people with variations of long covid to feel comfortable throwing caution to the wind. I also avoid the flu during flu season. In the meantime I continue to do grocery pick up and I stay close to home. When I do go out I wear a good N95.
My kids are now participating in activities and I ask them to put on a mask if kids around them are coughing or sniffling. They do because they love me.
It isn't the end of the world.
I totally support your family's right to live exactly as you are. If you're happy with your quality of life, I'm happy for you.
I mean, of course I'm not happy with my quality of life! I'd love to be able to go and sit in a church service, or see a play, or even attend events at my children's school. I would love for adults to not harass my children when they wear masks.
But I also know that I was hospitalized with post-viral complications form the flu a few years ago, and how sh*tty my immune system has been since then. And illnesses cause autoimmune flares that then require drugs that further suppress my immune system. And I have young children, and am the primary earner for our family and we have no support network nearby - so I better stay healthy because obviously we live in a society where no one will help us if we need it.
This is a tricky issue.
We had a window to control Covid, and that window has long past. It's going to be floating around forever. It no longer seems like it's going to be possible for even the most careful person to avoid catching it (probably multiple times).
The same assholes who refuse to vaccinate and had to travel the world during the pandemic are still here. And yep, it's due to their actions that covid is now a permeant fixture in the world. And they have invented all sorts of new assholery to continue being giant assholes.
COVID was well seeded throughout the world before it was even known to be a thing. It was found in multiple country's blood product supplies, viral testing swabs and waste water as early as Sept 2019, which means it was widespread then. Its deluded thinking to think that there was a window to shut it down. We've all seen how insidious it was in China, despite the huge efforts it required to lock residents down in their home time and time again when it would pop up in a community.
So, you guys think wishing horrible things, and even death, on strangers you disagree with on the details of how we will all come to terms with, "living with covid," and, eventually, "getting back to normal?"
It seems like we should be able to choose to do that, without getting dragged by a bunch of people wishing for my death and calling me a selfish asshole, because we're not passing their covid purity test.
It kind of bewilders me, though, how some people in this thread feel totally justified in wishing for my death and other horrible things to happen to me, all because I am "living with covid" and "getting back to normal" sooner than they feel comfortable doing themselves.
Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories.
Will definitely keep your advice in mind, ATtiny85. If I see you wearing an n-95 in a store, attempting to social distance, I'll be sure to give you a wide berth. Good luck!Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories.
You lost me here. Talking on planes should be outlawed.
I would like to see people simply practice continued social distancing in simple places like stores. Especially when the place is empty. Stay the hell away from me. I wanted that before COVID. My desired personal space was about four feet, and adding a few more in mid 2020 was delightful.
This is a tricky issue.
We had a window to control Covid, and that window has long past. It's going to be floating around forever. It no longer seems like it's going to be possible for even the most careful person to avoid catching it (probably multiple times).
The same assholes who refuse to vaccinate and had to travel the world during the pandemic are still here. And yep, it's due to their actions that covid is now a permeant fixture in the world. And they have invented all sorts of new assholery to continue being giant assholes.
COVID was well seeded throughout the world before it was even known to be a thing. It was found in multiple country's blood product supplies, viral testing swabs and waste water as early as Sept 2019, which means it was widespread then. Its deluded thinking to think that there was a window to shut it down. We've all seen how insidious it was in China, despite the huge efforts it required to lock residents down in their home time and time again when it would pop up in a community.
Can you cite your sources? Wuhan, November of 2019 was ground zero in everything that I've read.
Generally, the virus gets into the homes in the first place by either adults catching it at work or kids catching it at school - both places where people spend hours and hours together, often in tight spaces, with poor ventilation. Kids need to go to school and most adults need to go to work, so, not much we can do, other than just get used to the fact that covid is going to be with us for the rest of our lives.So… wearing a mask and taking a few reasonable precautions from time to time is “continuing to live that way”?You're more than welcome to take any "reasonable precautions" you like, Kris. Nobody's stopping you.
The horror…
Back around the beginning of the pandemic, when they were still trying to do contact tracing, I remember reading about a scientific study that found that the most likely place people got infected with covid was - not supermarkets, not on public transit - but *in their own homes, from people they lived with*. Given that fact, maybe, "reasonable precautions" should be for people to either live alone, or to mask up, whenever family members or roommates are in their home with them. Anybody not willing to wear an n-95 mask in their own home, at least whenever kids or spouses are around, is a complete "selfish asshole," right?
Nobody's telling you how to live your life. You're free to mask, test, distance, or whatever other precautions you want to take. Why the strong desire to push your way of life on the rest of us? Like I said above, if you had a plausible plan you could explain to us that if we continued doing x,y,z social distancing practices, for x months, years, or whatever, we could hope for some tangible change in our situation regarding covid, I would be all ears. As it is, though, it seems like you're just proposing that we should all avoid crowds? concerts? movies? crowded cafes? restaurants? and bars? And for how long? Forever, right? No, thank you. You're welcome to do that. It won't bother me, at all. But please don't try to shove your way of life down my and my family's throats.
Yeah. But how did the virus get into the homes in the first place?
This is an example of statistics leasing people to a false conclusion.
Most of the rest of what you posted is hyperbole, with a few strawmen tossed in.
Thank you, Samuel. My family and I spent over two years not doing many of the things we love, not because we were particularly afraid of catching covid ourselves, but mostly because we wanted to protect other, more vulnerable, people in our community. We purposely haven't visited my almost 80 year old mother for going on 4 years now, because we haven't felt comfortable with the risk that we might possibly infect her with anything. We've got plans to visit my mom later this year, but those 4 years we missed out on are never coming back. My daughter missed out on 4 years of seeing her grandmother, in person, and my mom missed out on seeing her granddaughter grow from being a little girl into a young woman. Nobody's going to be able to convince me that that was just "a minor inconvenience." My mom, me, my wife, and our daughter are all fully vaccinated and boosted against covid, so we're going to meet up, in person, in 2023, maybe even ride in a car together and sit together in a restaurant, without masks on. It seems like we should be able to choose to do that, without getting dragged by a bunch of people wishing for my death and calling me a selfish asshole, because we're not passing their covid purity test.
Agree with you that it's possible to "make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask." In the case of strangers I meet on a plane, though, I'm a lot less likely to engage in a long conversation with someone I don't know, who is sitting next to me on a plane wearing an n-95 mask. To me, the mask signifies that the person is attempting to socially distance and, therefore, might not appreciate being excessively talked to by a stranger. In the case of someone I know well, though, like a family member or close friend, I agree that a mask wouldn't necessarily present any insurmountable challenges to communication. Again, I totally support people who want to wear masks, wearing masks in any place they like. I have no desire to shame or criticize anyone who is still choosing to wear masks, and I expect the same consideration in return.The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
Well, you have to define social distancing - it's a spectrum. Also, do you mean do we mean to social distance for the rest of our lives? Or are you including masking and testing?
Because things that COVID taught me, which are good things:
- There's literally no reason to go to work sick. I can work at home. Seriously, nobody wants you at work sick. Cold, flu, COVID, whatever.
- I will wear a mask on a plane FOREVER. When I think of the number of years I picked up an illness on planes over the holidays, because some dude was coughing behind me (come to think of it, I got COVID while waiting to board a plane when I dude basically coughed and talked loudly in my face. I was masked, he was not, and we learned ON THE PLANE that he'd "just had COVID".)
- If I have to be out and about shopping, or whatever, when I have a cold, I'm totally wearing a mask. Ditto in crowded spaces.
- Socializing. Most of my socializing is done outdoors anyway (running friends, park potlucks).
- My group of friends and family have learned from COVID to ... not send their kids to someone else's house if they are sick. Likewise, when I go visit family (particularly the immuno compromised), I make sure to have COVID tests with me and masks. If we get sick and test positive, it's off to quarantine in a hotel. Our parents are in their 80s, so duh.
- I recently attended some holiday dinners and parties indoors ... it was before RSV, COVID, and flu really took hold locally. The sick people did not go! My DH had a cold, and he stayed home. Ditto for the wife of a friend (she had COVID, he was long over it).
I totally support your right to live your life exactly as you are. We've also changed for the better, I think, in that, since Covid started, we are much more careful about spreading any kind of virus to other people, especially if they're older or have compromised immune systems. If any of us are sick, even if it's just a cold, we don't go to any enclosed places, where we might infect anyone else. That seems like a positive change that's come about, because of the pandemic.
For some people, I guess, it's no loss to wear an n95 mask on plane flights. In my family, we've taken dozens of flights over the past 15 years, and I can't remember our ever getting sick after flying. Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories. All three of us were fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. After like two years of trying as hard as possible to stay away from other humans, it felt REALLY good to be vaccinated, and so, be able to make social connections again.
I get it that many other people are in very different positions from us healthwise, and totally respect their rights to continue living more cautiously. My family and I are up to date on our covid booster shots. If one of the pharmaceutical companies comes out with a new covid booster vaccine, sometime next spring, like we've heard, we'll be the first ones in line to get them, not so much to protect ourselves, but mostly to help protect other, more vulnerable, people. We don't want to give our elderly relatives and friends covid, or anything else, for that matter.
I hesitate to quibble here, but....I do just want to point out that you can do 3 of those things (really, 3.5 of them, but I get it that the mouth is more important than, let's say, the forehead) with a mask on.
I've had a couple of times recently where for some reason I was trying to remember if someone I had just finished conversing with and departed company from was wearing a mask or not. And I couldn't remember. I had had substantive conversations, one good, one just neutral, for quite a few minutes, and afterward I could not for the life of me picture whether or not they had been wearing a mask. Maybe not a surprise, I also couldn't picture what they were wearing and in the case of the person I didn't know well, their hair and other physical description didn't stick with me long. But you see my point? I don't think I'm unique in this way, that you can make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask. Especially if you don't a priori believe that you can't.
Totally agree with you we *could've* visited my mom safely. We offered, again and again, to either buy my mom a plane ticket to come see us and/or we would've flown to see her. It's been my mother's choice to not have any visits. She literally only leaves her apartment once a week, at 5am on Monday morning, to go shopping at her local supermarket that's just a few blocks from her house. For the rest of the week, she sits in her apartment, because she's too afraid to go outside, because she might catch covid...or monkey pox...or ebola...or whatever other disease du jour the media is scaring people about.Thank you, Samuel. My family and I spent over two years not doing many of the things we love, not because we were particularly afraid of catching covid ourselves, but mostly because we wanted to protect other, more vulnerable, people in our community. We purposely haven't visited my almost 80 year old mother for going on 4 years now, because we haven't felt comfortable with the risk that we might possibly infect her with anything. We've got plans to visit my mom later this year, but those 4 years we missed out on are never coming back. My daughter missed out on 4 years of seeing her grandmother, in person, and my mom missed out on seeing her granddaughter grow from being a little girl into a young woman. Nobody's going to be able to convince me that that was just "a minor inconvenience." My mom, me, my wife, and our daughter are all fully vaccinated and boosted against covid, so we're going to meet up, in person, in 2023, maybe even ride in a car together and sit together in a restaurant, without masks on. It seems like we should be able to choose to do that, without getting dragged by a bunch of people wishing for my death and calling me a selfish asshole, because we're not passing their covid purity test.
Daley may not have phrased it gently, but she is right that you could have fairly safely visited your mom at any time by taking precautions. I've got a friend that goes out and socializes frequently except the two weeks prior to seeing her immune-compromised parent. Then they do zoom drinks and cancel anything unnecessary (e.g. kids still need to go to school but they'll wear KN95s there). Just as it's our choice to continue masking, limit large group gatherings unless masked, etc., it's also your choice to indulge in higher risk activities that increase the chances you'd infect her with something. If you need to fly, wear a good fitting N-95 on the plane and at the airport. Take a test. etc.
Generally, the virus gets into the homes in the first place by either adults catching it at work or kids catching it at school - both places where people spend hours and hours together, often in tight spaces, with poor ventilation. Kids need to go to school and most adults need to go to work, so, not much we can do, other than just get used to the fact that covid is going to be with us for the rest of our lives.
Agree with you that it's possible to "make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask." In the case of strangers I meet on a plane, though, I'm a lot less likely to engage in a long conversation with someone I don't know, who is sitting next to me on a plane wearing an n-95 mask. To me, the mask signifies that the person is attempting to socially distance and, therefore, might not appreciate being excessively talked to by a stranger. In the case of someone I know well, though, like a family member or close friend, I agree that a mask wouldn't necessarily present any insurmountable challenges to communication. Again, I totally support people who want to wear masks, wearing masks in any place they like. I have no desire to shame or criticize anyone who is still choosing to wear masks, and I expect the same consideration in return.The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
Well, you have to define social distancing - it's a spectrum. Also, do you mean do we mean to social distance for the rest of our lives? Or are you including masking and testing?
Because things that COVID taught me, which are good things:
- There's literally no reason to go to work sick. I can work at home. Seriously, nobody wants you at work sick. Cold, flu, COVID, whatever.
- I will wear a mask on a plane FOREVER. When I think of the number of years I picked up an illness on planes over the holidays, because some dude was coughing behind me (come to think of it, I got COVID while waiting to board a plane when I dude basically coughed and talked loudly in my face. I was masked, he was not, and we learned ON THE PLANE that he'd "just had COVID".)
- If I have to be out and about shopping, or whatever, when I have a cold, I'm totally wearing a mask. Ditto in crowded spaces.
- Socializing. Most of my socializing is done outdoors anyway (running friends, park potlucks).
- My group of friends and family have learned from COVID to ... not send their kids to someone else's house if they are sick. Likewise, when I go visit family (particularly the immuno compromised), I make sure to have COVID tests with me and masks. If we get sick and test positive, it's off to quarantine in a hotel. Our parents are in their 80s, so duh.
- I recently attended some holiday dinners and parties indoors ... it was before RSV, COVID, and flu really took hold locally. The sick people did not go! My DH had a cold, and he stayed home. Ditto for the wife of a friend (she had COVID, he was long over it).
I totally support your right to live your life exactly as you are. We've also changed for the better, I think, in that, since Covid started, we are much more careful about spreading any kind of virus to other people, especially if they're older or have compromised immune systems. If any of us are sick, even if it's just a cold, we don't go to any enclosed places, where we might infect anyone else. That seems like a positive change that's come about, because of the pandemic.
For some people, I guess, it's no loss to wear an n95 mask on plane flights. In my family, we've taken dozens of flights over the past 15 years, and I can't remember our ever getting sick after flying. Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories. All three of us were fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. After like two years of trying as hard as possible to stay away from other humans, it felt REALLY good to be vaccinated, and so, be able to make social connections again.
I get it that many other people are in very different positions from us healthwise, and totally respect their rights to continue living more cautiously. My family and I are up to date on our covid booster shots. If one of the pharmaceutical companies comes out with a new covid booster vaccine, sometime next spring, like we've heard, we'll be the first ones in line to get them, not so much to protect ourselves, but mostly to help protect other, more vulnerable, people. We don't want to give our elderly relatives and friends covid, or anything else, for that matter.
I hesitate to quibble here, but....I do just want to point out that you can do 3 of those things (really, 3.5 of them, but I get it that the mouth is more important than, let's say, the forehead) with a mask on.
I've had a couple of times recently where for some reason I was trying to remember if someone I had just finished conversing with and departed company from was wearing a mask or not. And I couldn't remember. I had had substantive conversations, one good, one just neutral, for quite a few minutes, and afterward I could not for the life of me picture whether or not they had been wearing a mask. Maybe not a surprise, I also couldn't picture what they were wearing and in the case of the person I didn't know well, their hair and other physical description didn't stick with me long. But you see my point? I don't think I'm unique in this way, that you can make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask. Especially if you don't a priori believe that you can't.
Agree with you that improvements in building HVAC systems can possibly help to reduce the spread of all diseases. I guess I was more talking about individual solutions. One thing we did, during the pandemic, was enroll our daughter in fully online school for over two years, which is the main reason our family was able to go for over two years, without catching covid, finally, last month.Generally, the virus gets into the homes in the first place by either adults catching it at work or kids catching it at school - both places where people spend hours and hours together, often in tight spaces, with poor ventilation. Kids need to go to school and most adults need to go to work, so, not much we can do, other than just get used to the fact that covid is going to be with us for the rest of our lives.
The most obvious thing we can do (well not us personally) is improve ventilation. We know how air moves in rooms. We know there are ways to kill viruses and bacteria as air passes through the HVAC system. We just don't want to change the rules to force building owners including school boards) to improve their air quality.
Air changes are easy to measure for adequacy - just measure CO. Too high CO means too few air changes for the number of people in the room.
Seriously, if I am downwind of someone with a respiratory disease my odds are much higher of catching it than if I am upwind of that person. Outside is generally safer unless you are in a crowd, because there is just so much more volume of air to dilute the virus.
Personally, I think the whole social distancing thing has been REALLY bad for our country and for humans in general. Wearing masks and isolating ourselves was totally necessary at the beginning of the pandemic, up until effective vaccines were developed and distributed to everyone who wanted them, by around the summer of 2021. Even before covid, loneliness, anger, hatred, fear of others, was off the charts in the US. Now, it's worse. My daughter still has two classmates in her 8th grade class whom, she tells me, she wouldn't recognize if she saw them walking down the street, because she has NEVER SEEN THEIR FACES, after sitting in class with them for over half a school year already. A brother who lives in Norway visited us in the fall of 2021, and he was really surprised to see people in the US walking around outside wearing masks. He told us that the Norwegian equivalent of the CDC had announced, shortly before his trip to the US in October, that "The pandemic was over, and all restrictions, mandates, recommendations were finished. Everyone is free to go back to living their lives as they like." This idea that some Americans seem to be clinging to, that anyone returning to living a normal life is, somehow, immoral or bad, seems really unhealthy to me. People who want to continue isolating should be totally free to do anything they like to reduce their chances of getting sick. Judging others, who have completely different risk profiles, for how they're choosing to live their lives needs to stop already, imho.Agree with you that it's possible to "make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask." In the case of strangers I meet on a plane, though, I'm a lot less likely to engage in a long conversation with someone I don't know, who is sitting next to me on a plane wearing an n-95 mask. To me, the mask signifies that the person is attempting to socially distance and, therefore, might not appreciate being excessively talked to by a stranger. In the case of someone I know well, though, like a family member or close friend, I agree that a mask wouldn't necessarily present any insurmountable challenges to communication. Again, I totally support people who want to wear masks, wearing masks in any place they like. I have no desire to shame or criticize anyone who is still choosing to wear masks, and I expect the same consideration in return.The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
Well, you have to define social distancing - it's a spectrum. Also, do you mean do we mean to social distance for the rest of our lives? Or are you including masking and testing?
Because things that COVID taught me, which are good things:
- There's literally no reason to go to work sick. I can work at home. Seriously, nobody wants you at work sick. Cold, flu, COVID, whatever.
- I will wear a mask on a plane FOREVER. When I think of the number of years I picked up an illness on planes over the holidays, because some dude was coughing behind me (come to think of it, I got COVID while waiting to board a plane when I dude basically coughed and talked loudly in my face. I was masked, he was not, and we learned ON THE PLANE that he'd "just had COVID".)
- If I have to be out and about shopping, or whatever, when I have a cold, I'm totally wearing a mask. Ditto in crowded spaces.
- Socializing. Most of my socializing is done outdoors anyway (running friends, park potlucks).
- My group of friends and family have learned from COVID to ... not send their kids to someone else's house if they are sick. Likewise, when I go visit family (particularly the immuno compromised), I make sure to have COVID tests with me and masks. If we get sick and test positive, it's off to quarantine in a hotel. Our parents are in their 80s, so duh.
- I recently attended some holiday dinners and parties indoors ... it was before RSV, COVID, and flu really took hold locally. The sick people did not go! My DH had a cold, and he stayed home. Ditto for the wife of a friend (she had COVID, he was long over it).
I totally support your right to live your life exactly as you are. We've also changed for the better, I think, in that, since Covid started, we are much more careful about spreading any kind of virus to other people, especially if they're older or have compromised immune systems. If any of us are sick, even if it's just a cold, we don't go to any enclosed places, where we might infect anyone else. That seems like a positive change that's come about, because of the pandemic.
For some people, I guess, it's no loss to wear an n95 mask on plane flights. In my family, we've taken dozens of flights over the past 15 years, and I can't remember our ever getting sick after flying. Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories. All three of us were fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. After like two years of trying as hard as possible to stay away from other humans, it felt REALLY good to be vaccinated, and so, be able to make social connections again.
I get it that many other people are in very different positions from us healthwise, and totally respect their rights to continue living more cautiously. My family and I are up to date on our covid booster shots. If one of the pharmaceutical companies comes out with a new covid booster vaccine, sometime next spring, like we've heard, we'll be the first ones in line to get them, not so much to protect ourselves, but mostly to help protect other, more vulnerable, people. We don't want to give our elderly relatives and friends covid, or anything else, for that matter.
I hesitate to quibble here, but....I do just want to point out that you can do 3 of those things (really, 3.5 of them, but I get it that the mouth is more important than, let's say, the forehead) with a mask on.
I've had a couple of times recently where for some reason I was trying to remember if someone I had just finished conversing with and departed company from was wearing a mask or not. And I couldn't remember. I had had substantive conversations, one good, one just neutral, for quite a few minutes, and afterward I could not for the life of me picture whether or not they had been wearing a mask. Maybe not a surprise, I also couldn't picture what they were wearing and in the case of the person I didn't know well, their hair and other physical description didn't stick with me long. But you see my point? I don't think I'm unique in this way, that you can make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask. Especially if you don't a priori believe that you can't.
But those aren't equivalent actions, so to expect equivalent treatment is unfair. For someone to choose to wear a mask - they are making a choice that only impacts themselves or, to the extent it impacts others, it is only positive (never dangerous). Your choice is not the same. You are making a choice that can be dangerous to others. Why do you think you shouldn't be criticized for that choice?
Disclaimer that I choose not to wear a mask at some times that certainly some people could accuse me of the same and I know some people would criticize. I think I'm making fairly balanced choices that keep risk low in a world where you can never eliminate it, so I may still continue my behavior, but I also would not say that people should not be able to criticize my choice of behaviors. I think it's odd that you think dangerous choices should be able to escape criticism the same way non-dangerous choices do.
What an interesting thread.This is similar to our experience. We felt we HAD to make difficult choices for our kids. Had we not had children we might have stayed in our bubble longer.
My wife found out she was pregnant in late February 2020. We became hermits once March rolled around. No family gatherings. No restaurants, no non-essential trips outside the house. Definitely no playgrounds for my almost 3 year old at the time. Her parents thought we were crazy (they are Trumpers, to paint a picture). My parents were also very cautious, and basically mirrored our behavior.
Fast forward to end-of-summer 2020, and we basically said "screw it." Why? Our kid who was sociable, brave, talkative, and just an absolute sweetheart started getting weird. Spending 6 months locked in the house with no outdoor play with other kids did her no favors. At that point, we figured, lots of other people were living their lives, what were we afraid of? By then the stats were clear that it mostly impacted older, fatter folks with health issues, so we figured we'd take our chances at that point. In January 2020, we had enrolled our kid in preschool for the Fall of 2020, and we decided to follow through with letting her go to school. My wife was late in her pregnancy at that point with our 2nd, but to us, our kid's development was worth taking the chance. It was the best decision for us. Our kid has continued to love school through the years (we have sent her to private schools that remained open), and our 2nd kid has been a blessing as well.
Basically we've been business as usual since the Fall of 2020. I even went to a 50k attendance rock concert last summer. Was a blast. We've caught COVID a couple times, a flu or two, and RSV this last fall. None of that is fun. But at this point I feel pretty strongly that if you want to live a cautious life, do that. But if you want to go buck wild, do that too.
This is a tricky issue.
We had a window to control Covid, and that window has long past. It's going to be floating around forever. It no longer seems like it's going to be possible for even the most careful person to avoid catching it (probably multiple times).
The same assholes who refuse to vaccinate and had to travel the world during the pandemic are still here. And yep, it's due to their actions that covid is now a permeant fixture in the world. And they have invented all sorts of new assholery to continue being giant assholes.
COVID was well seeded throughout the world before it was even known to be a thing. It was found in multiple country's blood product supplies, viral testing swabs and waste water as early as Sept 2019, which means it was widespread then. Its deluded thinking to think that there was a window to shut it down. We've all seen how insidious it was in China, despite the huge efforts it required to lock residents down in their home time and time again when it would pop up in a community.
Can you cite your sources? Wuhan, November of 2019 was ground zero in everything that I've read.
Google can cite my sources, as well as help you with them
https://www.ormanager.com/briefs/covid-19-antibodiesfound-in-blood-donated-by-americans-in-december-2019/
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science/coronavirus-traces-found-in-march-2019-sewage-sample-spanish-study-shows-idUSKBN23X2HQ
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-italy-sewage/italy-sewage-study-suggests-covid-19-was-there-in-december-2019-idINL1N2DV2XE
Can't currently find the "retesting of old swabs" study
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
I don't get any say in the matter anymore, exactly because of the a-holes in this world who refused to mask or vaccinate in the first place, and are continuing to do without because, "lol, COVID's here to stay! why's it fucking matter you whiny snowflake!?" COVID didn't have to be a forever thing. SARS outbreaks had been contained and stopped before. Traditions of masking in Asian countries have shown dramatic reductions in air-borne illness transmissions, especially with COVID. Herd immunity with vaccinations have been proven to work if you get enough people on board. We nearly eradicated polio, smallpox, measles...
Well, you got your fucking precious personal freedom, and you've robbed me and millions of others of their own capacity to socialize and live even remotely normal lives again... and that's just those of us who survived getting sick with it. It's been twenty-two days for me, and still counting, on recovery. It has been the sickest I've been in my life, and that's saying something given my medical history...
FUCK YOU. I HOPE YOUR LIFE IS AS PAINFUL, LONELY, AND MISERABLE AS THE DEATH I WISH UPON YOU.
Wow, sorry you're so hateful and angry Daley. It must really suck to go through life with all of that anger and bitterness inside of you. Feel free to lash out at me - an internet stranger - as much as you like if it makes you feel any better. Seems like seeking out a qualified mental health practitioner to talk with might be better though.
It seems like you're mostly arguing against a straw man. My family and I are all fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. If new variant specific covid vaccines become available in the spring, as we've heard they might, we'll be the first ones in line to get boosted again.
Last month, family and I caught covid on a trip to NYC. I first started to show symptoms of a runny nose, as we were already on the train headed towards home. As soon as we realized we had covid, family and I isolated ourselves at home, just eating food from the bottom of our freezer and out of the pantry. We just didn't go outside of our house for a full week. Then, for another week, at least, we went for walks to exercise outside, but didn't go inside any stores or restaurants. I got the most sick, which was kind of a moderate cold. My wife had a real mild cold, and our daughter only had the sniffles for a couple of days. We didn't go around any other people, until all of our symptoms were gone, and we were well past the 5-10 days currently recommended by the CDC.
In a thread titled, "Where do you stand on 'living with Covid', 'getting back to normal'" I asked what seemed to me to be a reasonable question:For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
If you told me your plan was you wanted everyone to social distance, test, do contact tracing, or whatever, for a specific amount of time and, then, there was some achievable goal that you were hoping to reach that would make things somehow better, I would be totally onboard with doing whatever the experts told us would possibly work to eradicate covid or at least make it less virulent or less deadly or whatever. But, if your plan is that everyone in the whole world, whether we're immunocompromised, old, young, whatever, we all should never go to a concert again, or don't go to football games where you're in a huge stadium with 50K+ other people, or don't go to tiny indie cinemas to see cool films, don't drink coffee in crowded cafes, don't go to indoor parties in the winter, FOREVER! FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES! and if any of us are not all, immediately, on board with your plans, then, you think wishing for my death and calling me names is a reasonable way to have a conversation? Really?:Thank you for saying this. I'm so tired of selfish assholes.Thumbs WAY up on this response.
One thing I will add, if I may, is much of this would never have happened if the orange "politician who shall not be named" and his team would not have turned the covid vax into a political football. It was a damned shame. I can elaborate further all day...but I think I will leave it at that.This x1000. Thank you for saying what so many of us have kept bottled up inside for so long.
So, you guys think wishing horrible things, and even death, on strangers you disagree with on the details of how we will all come to terms with, "living with covid," and, eventually, "getting back to normal?" You think that's a totally normal, healthy way to have a discussion? Man, it must really suck to believe so strongly that you are right and just and perfect and good, and anyone who disagrees with you, even a little bit, is a horrible person, whom you feel, apparently, totally comfortable dehumanizing to the point that your "compassion" and "empathy" make you so angry you spew hateful insults and wishes of death on strangers on the internet.
It must suck to be so angry. It's an unfortunate fact that millions of people's mental health has really suffered, during the pandemic. Good luck dealing with all of that hatred and anger inside of yourselves. You're not hurting me by swearing or wishing for my death. It just seems pitiful, tbh.
Agree with you that improvements in building HVAC systems can possibly help to reduce the spread of all diseases. I guess I was more talking about individual solutions. One thing we did, during the pandemic, was enroll our daughter in fully online school for over two years, which is the main reason our family was able to go for over two years, without catching covid, finally, last month.Generally, the virus gets into the homes in the first place by either adults catching it at work or kids catching it at school - both places where people spend hours and hours together, often in tight spaces, with poor ventilation. Kids need to go to school and most adults need to go to work, so, not much we can do, other than just get used to the fact that covid is going to be with us for the rest of our lives.
The most obvious thing we can do (well not us personally) is improve ventilation. We know how air moves in rooms. We know there are ways to kill viruses and bacteria as air passes through the HVAC system. We just don't want to change the rules to force building owners including school boards) to improve their air quality.
Air changes are easy to measure for adequacy - just measure CO. Too high CO means too few air changes for the number of people in the room.
Seriously, if I am downwind of someone with a respiratory disease my odds are much higher of catching it than if I am upwind of that person. Outside is generally safer unless you are in a crowd, because there is just so much more volume of air to dilute the virus.
But that's not what you were saying. You said "your kids are sick more because they weren't around other kids" during COVID. I'm saying, specifically my kids are sick every single October and January (and often other months too...FB memories are the gift that keeps on giving). I am well aware that there's COVID, flu, and RSV this year (as opposed to cold and flu years). I do read the news.The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.
My wife works in Peds. It's WAY worse this year than normal, and most of the Pediatricians privately say the same thing. They also mostly haven't vaccinated their own children even though publicly they have to support and recommend it or risk losing their license.
But that's not what you were saying. You said "your kids are sick more because they weren't around other kids" during COVID. I'm saying, specifically my kids are sick every single October and January (and often other months too...FB memories are the gift that keeps on giving). I am well aware that there's COVID, flu, and RSV this year (as opposed to cold and flu years). I do read the news.The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school. I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it. (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild! We almost never left the house!)
Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.
My wife works in Peds. It's WAY worse this year than normal, and most of the Pediatricians privately say the same thing. They also mostly haven't vaccinated their own children even though publicly they have to support and recommend it or risk losing their license.
As far as what your doctors and Peds do...well, I don't know where you live. Our ped has vaxxed all his children (fully vaxxed). He wrote multiple articles in the local paper over many years encouraging the practice. The entire office went to virtual annual appts during the height of COVID, the flu shots were drive up and outdoors. The whole "doctors not vaxxing" sadly probably has a LOT more to do with your local politics. Our entire school district requires COVID vaccination to attend school (and all others, also).
It's exactly what I'm saying. Yes kids get sick every year, but it's way worse this year.
Ignore my previous post - I just read an interview with an epidemiologist from the University of Toronto. What seems to be happening is not that children have not been exposed to pathogens over the last few years and that has weakened their immune systems. What is surfacing is that the children who get really sick are those who previously had Covid - Covid is known to damage T cells, and these kids have weaker immune systems now.
Extrapolating, this implies that people who have had Covid should be taking more precautions against infections from RSV and the flu and colds, not fewer - because anyone who has had Covid may have had damage done to their T cells.
This is not new - think AIDS.
JFC, "they" will blame anything on Covid won't they. How convenient is that?
Really interesting (assuming this was the link you referred to RetireAt63):
https://torontolife.com/city/i-was-appalled-to-see-the-prime-minister-making-those-comments-a-u-of-t-epidemiologist-on-the-myth-of-immunity-debt-and-the-real-reason-everyones-getting-sick
Ignore my previous post - I just read an interview with an epidemiologist from the University of Toronto. What seems to be happening is not that children have not been exposed to pathogens over the last few years and that has weakened their immune systems. What is surfacing is that the children who get really sick are those who previously had Covid - Covid is known to damage T cells, and these kids have weaker immune systems now.
Extrapolating, this implies that people who have had Covid should be taking more precautions against infections from RSV and the flu and colds, not fewer - because anyone who has had Covid may have had damage done to their T cells.
This is not new - think AIDS.
This has been our anecdotal experience.
One of my colleagues has a child that has been in daycare since they reopened late 2020, the kid was a toddler so they were never masked. The little boy caught covid spring of 2022 and has caught EVERYTHING since then. They had to take him to the hospital for oxygen twice during the fall because RSV and then a cold just wrecked him.
We've seen the difference in our own house as well. Interestingly my kids' classrooms were almost set up like experiments last year. I offered to buy their classrooms nice air purifiers. Daughter's teacher was very covid careful and even made his own Corsi-Rosenthal box (and welcomed an additional air purifier). Son's teacher said she wasn't interested and COVID was "over." Guess which child caught covid? StarBoy ran fevers for two weeks straight and then for a day or two a week for two months thereafter. It was rough! He missed like 18 days of school and we had to have a truancy hearing.
Now I have one kid that had covid and one who didn't. Covid kid seemed to catch every summer cold, daughter never ran a fever - they were in the same summer camp and group so were exposed to all the same bugs.
Daughter brought home flu in December. She ran a low fever for 48 hours and was back at school. Son missed 6 days of school and ran high fevers for 8 days and has now developed a tic
Sure it is just anecdotes- but it has definitely been our experience.
JFC, "they" will blame anything on Covid won't they. How convenient is that?
Also, requiring children to get COVID vaccines to attend school is borderline criminal imo.
JFC, "they" will blame anything on Covid won't they. How convenient is that?
Really there needs to be a high school course that looks at the history of disease and health policy.
Measles could cause blindness in severe cases.
Measles could cause blindness in severe cases.
Measles encephelitis killed the 7 year old daughter of Roald Dahl (https://www.roalddahlfans.com/dahls-work/essays-and-articles/measles-a-dangerous-illness/), author of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory".
Noted ethicist Art Caplan was paralyzed by polio as a kid (he experienced a spontaneous and inexplicable cure - told me he jumped out of his bath and ran down the hall naked when he could suddenly move his legs again).
People forget/don’t realize how bad some of these diseases were before vaccines.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
I'm an old lady, and I avoided crowds in flu season long before Covid came along. I plan to carry on with my life and mask indoors for the rest of my life. Really.
I'm perfectly content to take a Covid test as needed. I'd be happy if I had influenza tests in my cupboard, too.
My life *is* normal.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
I'm an old lady, and I avoided crowds in flu season long before Covid came along. I plan to carry on with my life and mask indoors for the rest of my life. Really.
I'm perfectly content to take a Covid test as needed. I'd be happy if I had influenza tests in my cupboard, too.
My life *is* normal.
I've been getting annual flu shots for years. Being retired means avoiding crowded stores is easy, been doing that for years as well. Plus I find curb-side pickupfor groceries is more efficient than in-store shopping, so I will continue to do it as well.
When the nasal spray vaccines come out I will be in line as soon as I am eligible.
For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?
I'm an old lady, and I avoided crowds in flu season long before Covid came along. I plan to carry on with my life and mask indoors for the rest of my life. Really.
I'm perfectly content to take a Covid test as needed. I'd be happy if I had influenza tests in my cupboard, too.
My life *is* normal.
I've been getting annual flu shots for years. Being retired means avoiding crowded stores is easy, been doing that for years as well. Plus I find curb-side pickupfor groceries is more efficient than in-store shopping, so I will continue to do it as well.
When the nasal spray vaccines come out I will be in line as soon as I am eligible.
And to bring it all back to mustachianism :) - I don't know about you, but I find I spend way less when I do curbside pick up. Unlike shopping instore I can check my totals before I check out and I often find myself removing a few things. It has kept my groceries at about $100 a week for a family of 4 for the last several years.
I'm seeing a lot of posts about young kids here. And you know, I never really thought too hard about that because our kids are "grown" ( in college now ). Our son had to do his first year of college from home though...which wasn't optimal. However, he did well and is thriving now that he is on campus ( he is a Junior this year ). Our daughter graduated college during covid and then worked a year...and is now in grad school. She is doing great as well. If anything, the bonds she made with her small group of friends she lived with during the pandemic are very strong..and they will likely be lifelong friends.
One takeway for me is that it would have been really, really, tough getting through this with young kids...especially young kids that are developing emotionally, etc... Thanks for the discussion!
I'm seeing a lot of posts about young kids here. And you know, I never really thought too hard about that because our kids are "grown" ( in college now ). Our son had to do his first year of college from home though...which wasn't optimal. However, he did well and is thriving now that he is on campus ( he is a Junior this year ). Our daughter graduated college during covid and then worked a year...and is now in grad school. She is doing great as well. If anything, the bonds she made with her small group of friends she lived with during the pandemic are very strong..and they will likely be lifelong friends.
One takeway for me is that it would have been really, really, tough getting through this with young kids...especially young kids that are developing emotionally, etc... Thanks for the discussion!
Thank you for acknowledging how hard this pandemic has been on parents. It’s made for some really difficult decisions and the fatigue from all of that is real!
Personally, I think the whole social distancing thing has been REALLY bad for our country and for humans in general. Wearing masks and isolating ourselves was totally necessary at the beginning of the pandemic, up until effective vaccines were developed and distributed to everyone who wanted them, by around the summer of 2021.
I'm seeing a lot of posts about young kids here. And you know, I never really thought too hard about that because our kids are "grown" ( in college now ). Our son had to do his first year of college from home though...which wasn't optimal. However, he did well and is thriving now that he is on campus ( he is a Junior this year ). Our daughter graduated college during covid and then worked a year...and is now in grad school. She is doing great as well. If anything, the bonds she made with her small group of friends she lived with during the pandemic are very strong..and they will likely be lifelong friends.
One takeway for me is that it would have been really, really, tough getting through this with young kids...especially young kids that are developing emotionally, etc... Thanks for the discussion!
Thank you for acknowledging how hard this pandemic has been on parents. It’s made for some really difficult decisions and the fatigue from all of that is real!
Mind you, I have done my best to boost my immune-system and to minimize the attachment points for SARS-Cov-2 keeping my vit D and Zinc levels up and my weight down to ideal level, working on optimizing my metabolic health, for whatever that will be worth this year.
Mind you, I have done my best to boost my immune-system and to minimize the attachment points for SARS-Cov-2 keeping my vit D and Zinc levels up and my weight down to ideal level, working on optimizing my metabolic health, for whatever that will be worth this year.
Doing all that amounted to nothing of benefit for us, but best of luck to you. :P
Mind you, I have done my best to boost my immune-system and to minimize the attachment points for SARS-Cov-2 keeping my vit D and Zinc levels up and my weight down to ideal level, working on optimizing my metabolic health, for whatever that will be worth this year.
Doing all that amounted to nothing of benefit for us, but best of luck to you. :P
Mind you, I have done my best to boost my immune-system and to minimize the attachment points for SARS-Cov-2 keeping my vit D and Zinc levels up and my weight down to ideal level, working on optimizing my metabolic health, for whatever that will be worth this year.
Mind you, I have done my best to boost my immune-system and to minimize the attachment points for SARS-Cov-2 keeping my vit D and Zinc levels up and my weight down to ideal level, working on optimizing my metabolic health, for whatever that will be worth this year.
Wait, what? You took accountability for something in your control that benefits you and you worked to improve your risk profile? That won’t be well received here, but I appreciate it.
Mind you, I have done my best to boost my immune-system and to minimize the attachment points for SARS-Cov-2 keeping my vit D and Zinc levels up and my weight down to ideal level, working on optimizing my metabolic health, for whatever that will be worth this year.
Doing all that amounted to nothing of benefit for us, but best of luck to you. :P
Heh.
Same.
Should have stopped eating well/working out years ago...instead of continuing to do it like a sucka. #sarcasm
Mind you, I have done my best to boost my immune-system and to minimize the attachment points for SARS-Cov-2 keeping my vit D and Zinc levels up and my weight down to ideal level, working on optimizing my metabolic health, for whatever that will be worth this year.
Doing all that amounted to nothing of benefit for us, but best of luck to you. :P
Heh.
Same.
Should have stopped eating well/working out years ago...instead of continuing to do it like a sucka. #sarcasm
We have always aimed to live a healthy life over here too - there are many clear benefits to doing so . . . I meant 'nothing of benefit' as far as avoiding catching and passing on covid.
What we are seeing right now is actually the beginning of the transition from pandemia to endemicity.
Looking at endemicity from the point of view of tolerance of a certain amount of death and suffering on the part of the general population leads directly to the perception of the severity of the threat.
With the perception of of severity of the disease decreasing, measures of risk mitigation will meet less and less acceptance. This puts vulnerable people at increasing risk. We are currently at the cusp of having highly active therapeutics generally available and these medications allow us to quickly develop strategies to avert serious infections in the immunocompromised. We will likely be able to protect the immunocompromised from serious disease in the near future, removing this large number of patients from the high risk pool leaving it comprised almost exclusively of the unvaccinated.
Ironically, the general population is about to adopt a view of Covid similar to views common on the Covid denier/no-vax side from the very beginning of the pandemic.
I cannot stress enough that the decreasing perception of illness severity on the part of the general population is in lockstep with the acceptance of bad outcomes in an identifiable subgroup, i.e. Covid deniers and the unvaxxed, effectively marginalizing them in the pursuit of return to normality.
Politically and ethically, an administration cannot simply abandon efforts to reach the vulnerable subgroup, no matter how unsympathetic the members of the group are and how ready the general population is to leave them to their own devices. Of course, extremist and populist goverments would not have a problem with that because such governments are always on the lookout for subgroups to ostracize and hurt.
And that is why I hold two apparently contradictory positions:
1. getting the vaccine is a personal choice but not getting it may require acceptance of some inconveniences in daily life
2. vaccine mandates are necessary while knowing that universal compliance is impossible to achieve.
I am certain that the current administration knows perfectly well that the bogging down of mandates in the legal system was unavoidable and that they were actually to be expected. It is also very clear that the federal mandates are achieving what could reasonably be expected to be achieved by simply starting the debate about "mandates". It is a simple case of advancing your goals just by having a debate without any expectation to win the debate.
The debate about mandates has been going on for many weeks and will keep going and here is an incomplete list of what the "mandates" are accomplishing.
The introduction of federal workforce vaccine requirements and the ongoing debate about vaccine "mandates":
1) is giving cover to employers to introduce their own requirements and inconveniences
2) is giving cover to unvaxxed individuals who may be under social pressures to not getting vaccinated or who have spouted antivaxx sentiments before and now have an excuse to get vaccinated while saving face
3) is leading to vaccinations in countless people who do not have strong opinions about vaccinations, i.e. fence sitters and procrastinators etc, and have not received them for a variety of reasons but needed a nudge
4) will be giving cover to the government against any accusations that they did not do everything in their power to reach high risk populations, and this is independent of the extent to which the courts and state legislatures allow the efforts to proceed.
Now about number 4. The administration is under pressure to demonstrate that it did everything possible to mitigate the pandemic impact on vulnerable and disadvantaged populations and everything possible is, in a liberal democracy, what is allowed under the law and the constitution and the courts are the place where the limits of executive power are established. I would be the first to accuse the government of abandonment if they did not test the limits in the federal court system. Obviously, after all efforts regarding mandates have been exhausted and nothing more can be done, the stage is set for abandonment of the remaining vaccine resistant populations to their own devices and alignment with the general public sentiment which is trending strongly towards perception of Covid as not much worse than the flu; which happens to be close to the truth for fully immunized people.
Luckily, the majority of the unvaxxed appear to ingest anything whatsoever once they feel sick, giving the administration another opening in trying to contain the catastrophe among the unvaxxed with the new antiviral drugs.
Now about the apparently decreased severity of Covid caused by Omicron. This discussion is marked by confusion and it might be time to clarify a few things.
In a certain sense this discussion is about the virulence of the coronavirus as manifested in its different variants. The problem here is that virulence is not a straightforward concept and, without a bit of background knowledge, the public discourse fails to make sense.
First we have to acknowledge that there are different meanings of the term
virulence depending on who uses the term (or a synonymous term) under which circumstances and with which intent. The reason why virulence is not a straightforward concept is because in its original meaning the virulence of a pathogen is simply a measure of the ability of a pathogen to cause disease or death. In a contolled laboratory environment in which virulence ist measured by the effect of a pathogen on a standardized host organism and the change of those effects in response to alterations of pathogen. If a particular feature of a pathogen results in a differential effect on virulence based on the absence or presence of said feature (for example absence or presence of a capsule in some bacteriae renders them either harmless or dangerous), the feature is then called a virulence factor.
In the laboratory with a standardized host organism, virulence thus appears solely determined by the pathogen. This is untrue in the real world where cases of infection are drawn from non-standardized populations and where the definition of virulence, number of cases / number of disease and death, reasserts itself as showing the virulence in the real world is just as dependent on the population from which the cases are drawn as on the pathogen itself.
The closest the public discourse comes to the scientific meaning of virulence is this:
1. the effect of a new variant on severity and frequency of severe disese and death in the unvaccinated population. This is the closest to the lab setting as the unvaxxed population is somewhat standardized because it has never encountered the pathogen. Unfortunately, at this point there is no good way to remove the never infected from the other unvaccinated in the equation, making it very difficult to arrive at an accurate estimate. The presence of some previously infected will cause underestimation of virulence to an unknown degree. This is why there is such a delay in determining if Omicron is less dangerous than other variants - the error lies in the same direction and on top of it, everybodey wants to hear that it is less dangerous.
The second way the term virulence, or equivalent, is used I would call apparent virulence, and this apparent virulence is of great importance for policy decisions:
2. Apparent virulence is simply the number of all cases in a geographic area divided by the number of cases of severe disease and death. Apparent virulence is the most important measure going into health care resource management assessments.
Apparent virulence is a measure of the impact of the pathogen on health care resources in a particular area and depends not only on the actual virulence (1., above) of the pathogen but also on the immune status of the population.
Apparent virulence therefore does not tell us much about the pathogen when the immune status of the population is not well known, but is of immense practical value for medical resource management.
The third meaning in which the term virulence or equivalent is used I would call perceived virulence:
3. Perceived virulence is the most politically charged and arguably the most important sense in which comparative disease severity of the Omicron variant is discussed. Perceived virulence (or threat perception) is what was manipulated from day one of the pandemic by political actors and is still the focus of political activity.
Covid denial, for example, is just the extreme to which downplaying disease severity (virulence) can be pushed. The extent to which the perceived virulence of the coronavirus has been successfully lowered by political actors and their multiplicators (mostly on the right) in susceptible populations can be seen in the surprise many unvaxxed Covid victims show when they get really sick and end up dying from a disease they were convinced to be largely a hoax.
Perceived virulence is now decreasing rapidly among the vaccinated as the conviction that those who are still unvaxxed cannot be reached (which is technically certainly untrue but practically likely true). The administration is actively working on all levels to support that notion and faces no resistance whatsoever as downplaying Covid is what the unvaxxed are doing all day long and the rest of the population is ready to join the unvaxxed in that stance.
Unfortunately, for the unvaxxed, the Omicron variant so far appears to be less virulent than Delta but of similar virulence as the original virus. Two years ago, the world shut down for a virus with that virulence but today we call it a mild form. This cannot be explained by anything but the lowered perceived virulence and actual apparent virulence in the vaccinated population. In other words, the unvaccinated are on their own and we can be assured that everything possibe up to "mandates" was done to help them.
Of course, this is not good news for health care resources stretched to the limit and it is not the end of what the current administration has on their plate.
The fact that majority opinion is aligning with opinions on the unvaxxed side now also means that the issues with downplaying the pandemic on the basis of ones own risk for a bad outcome are now appearing everywhere. And that is because perceived virulence is ultimately an assessment of ones own risk of a bad outcome plus a common good consideration that is now excluding the still unvaxxed.
The readiness of the general public to leave the unvaxxed in the dust and the capability of societies to tolerate mass casualties should not be underestimated. Just think how easily we tolerate tens of thousands of traffic deaths and injuries per year for te sake of transportation. We would never tolerate a death toll like that if microwave ovens were zapping us on a regular basis in exchange for some hot beferage. But a couple of hundred thousand deaths a year from Covid in the hinterlands in exchange for return to normality while not being in much danger oneself would be tolerated quite well - especially as the unvaxxed are willing to collaborate in their own deception. As long as the stakes are appropriate, an enormous number of deaths and much misery will be tolerated.
A decrease of perceived virulence of a pathogen in the general population is also the best marker for te transitioning of a pandemic to the endemic state as it is an attitude adjustment based on a risk benefit assessment. I find it fascinating to observe this in real time.
There are many moving parts but the general direction appears clearer by the day. It is obvious that we are moving toward a situation where a susceptible population that is disadvantaged for social reasons suffers the brunt of a disease transitioning to the endemic phase for the rest of the population. The fact that the behavior of this risk group does not make them sympathetic should not distract from the duty of government and other entities to find ways to mitigate the effects of the disease. Some interventions will also help decompress the health care systems such as large scale programs for preemptive antiviral treatments etc. as well as travelling health care resources to absorb local spikes and need to be vigorously pursued. I personally find it encouraging that the unvaxxed appear to be ready to swallow anything as soon as they get a sore throat - so the antiviral strategies have a chance to work.
All that said, another variant can change things but at this point I consider it likely that Omicron will result in a different immunologic situation on a society level than before, thus heralding a new phase in the coronavirus saga.
I posted the above about four weeks ago and things have been moving rapidly.
There was a White House meeting with the state governors where there was broad bipartisan agreement to "move away from the pandemic mindset", to paraphrase the general mood at the meeting. The president did still emphasize that there is a lot more work to be done to deal with regional hot spots etc. - but that is his job to say that.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/31/politics/governors-pandemic-biden/index.html
Anecdotally, I have been informed that tertiary care centers in at least one of the largest metropolitan regions have begun to perform major elective surgeries which require reservations of ICU beds. These beds are not available for transfers of Covid patients from other facilities.
I have also been informed that Covid patients in refractory respiratory failure are now routinely declared not to be candidates for ECMO (In my opinion, this policy change was overdue as only very few benefit from ECMO support). The restriction of ECMO to more appropriate candidates will decrease overall suffering and will absolutely decrease the number of transfers in, thus relieving some of the burden. These things do not happen unless there is broad political and public support in favor of them.
And as this is the USA, there certainly is great tolerance for restricted access to medical care to identifiable subgroups in society, particularly among conservatives. Ironically, this time the affected tend to be conservative rural residents who are facing the greatest health crisis in modern times all the while access to advanced medical care is becoming more difficult for them.
And finally, here is an article from The Atlantic explaining in more detail how to look at and think about "endemicity".
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/02/endemicity-means-nothing/621423/
Of course, the big question is when one should stop mask wearing and other precautions.
For me, the answer is that I will continue wearing a mask and will not change any other precautions I routinely take until protocols and antivirals are available to treat the immunocompromised and other high risk individuals preemptively upon exposure or early in the course of the disease.
Who needs social contract when it's the apocalypse, amirite?
Who needs social contract when it's the apocalypse, amirite?
You know, the wife and I had a theory on that at one point. We'd suspected that the doomsday preppers were both super scared and super disappointed in finally having their day in the sun, so to speak, after years of hoarding and stockpiling... and a world shaking virus comes along, and no amount of bullets or dehydrated beef stroganoff or violence to beat back the hoards coming for you was gonna save your ass and preserve your life. Instead, the weapons of effectiveness were ordinary masks and compassion. The two things that their stockpiles were critically short of. The impudent rage of finding out how you spent years and countless dollars preparing for something only to have all that stuff be pointless had to go somewhere, though... and here we are.
Who needs social contract when it's the apocalypse, amirite?
You know, the wife and I had a theory on that at one point. We'd suspected that the doomsday preppers were both super scared and super disappointed in finally having their day in the sun, so to speak, after years of hoarding and stockpiling... and a world shaking virus comes along, and no amount of bullets or dehydrated beef stroganoff or violence to beat back the hoards coming for you was gonna save your ass and preserve your life. Instead, the weapons of effectiveness were ordinary masks and compassion. The two things that their stockpiles were critically short of. The impudent rage of finding out how you spent years and countless dollars preparing for something only to have all that stuff be pointless had to go somewhere, though... and here we are.
but- they had toliet paper..Who needs social contract when it's the apocalypse, amirite?
You know, the wife and I had a theory on that at one point. We'd suspected that the doomsday preppers were both super scared and super disappointed in finally having their day in the sun, so to speak, after years of hoarding and stockpiling... and a world shaking virus comes along, and no amount of bullets or dehydrated beef stroganoff or violence to beat back the hoards coming for you was gonna save your ass and preserve your life. Instead, the weapons of effectiveness were ordinary masks and compassion. The two things that their stockpiles were critically short of. The impudent rage of finding out how you spent years and countless dollars preparing for something only to have all that stuff be pointless had to go somewhere, though... and here we are.
This makes sense. As does the reaction of needing to deny the effectiveness of those things (masks and lack of selfishness) AND call the people who use them "sheeple."
I just had strep throat. It was 10x worse than either time I had Covid.
I just had strep throat. It was 10x worse than either time I had Covid.
Yes. Strep throat is also a thing that can be bad.
Apparently Strep A is making the rounds now.
I'm still wearing a mask, even though 99% of people here aren't. At least, I've never gotten a rude look or comment because of it.
My 83 year old, unvaccinated aunt is now in hospital with Covid, and it's not looking good. She's unvaccinated due to severe mobility issues that make going to a doctor really challenging; otherwise, she's pretty healthy. Or was.
I don't wear a mask, except when flying. The last thing I want is to get sick from COVID-19, flu, RSV, or some airborne miscreant, and ruin all or part of my vacation, or getting back to work on the return flight.Hope you had a good party that you decided to post from your inebriated state!!!
The pandemic made me realize I can't trust people, can't take their word, not even my family. Trust but verify. If cannot verify, protect yourself in a reasonable manner.
I don't get into crowd situations anymore. No more very close conversations, keep a couple of feet distance. So no need to wear a mask with behavior changes.
Plus I love the free 5G for life. Simply amazing. Wearing a tinfoil hat keeps the signals internal to prevent snooping and reading my FIRE-ing thoughts.
One thing I do like is that it seems that for the most part people stay home now when they are sick. I notice a helluva lot less coughing by obviously sick people in public.
One thing I do like is that it seems that for the most part people stay home now when they are sick. I notice a helluva lot less coughing by obviously sick people in public.
I have very few pet peeves...but sick people at work pisses me the heck off! Especially in office environments where people can easily work from home if they need to.
Luckily, as you said, people seem to be a *little* bit more responsible about it now.
One thing I do like is that it seems that for the most part people stay home now when they are sick. I notice a helluva lot less coughing by obviously sick people in public.
I have very few pet peeves...but sick people at work pisses me the heck off! Especially in office environments where people can easily work from home if they need to.
Luckily, as you said, people seem to be a *little* bit more responsible about it now.
This peeve should be directed at the workplace though, not the individual. If it's understood that sick people stay home, then they tend to do so. If it's understood that you get your ass into the office regardless of sickness then they tend to do it.
I've worked in both types of places. :P
I just had strep throat. It was 10x worse than either time I had Covid.
One thing I do like is that it seems that for the most part people stay home now when they are sick. I notice a helluva lot less coughing by obviously sick people in public.
I have very few pet peeves...but sick people at work pisses me the heck off! Especially in office environments where people can easily work from home if they need to.
Luckily, as you said, people seem to be a *little* bit more responsible about it now.
This peeve should be directed at the workplace though, not the individual. If it's understood that sick people stay home, then they tend to do so. If it's understood that you get your ass into the office regardless of sickness then they tend to do it.
I've worked in both types of places. :P
With international travel (mostly) open to the unvaccinated again, I'd say we're completely back to normal now. I hardly see masks at all around Vancouver these days. I like that people seem to be better about respecting personal space than pre-pandemic, and that's the one thing I really hope sticks around long-term.
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
I considered that, it was what I assumed all along, but there is only two of them and they are both now mask-less. My working theory is maybe they did have a health concern but both got Covid at some point and found out that it did not affect them in a concerning way. It was very strange because I did not start going to this store until Covid so this was my first time seeing either of their faces.
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
I considered that, it was what I assumed all along, but there is only two of them and they are both now mask-less. My working theory is maybe they did have a health concern but both got Covid at some point and found out that it did not affect them in a concerning way. It was very strange because I did not start going to this store until Covid so this was my first time seeing either of their faces.
I was referring to Michael's post about the store with masks from 7-10, and his glib comment that Covid doesn't spread after 10.
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
Exactly. There is a simple, reasonable answer to the requirement.
I went to Costco last night and they have removed all plexiglass screens around the registers. It was somewhat interesting as I assumed the screens would always be there.
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
I see many more masks first thing in the morning and I assume that us old people shop early! I do see plenty of store employees still wearing them.
It was strange last month when the air was so bad and people wore masks outside and took them off indoors.
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
I see many more masks first thing in the morning and I assume that us old people shop early! I do see plenty of store employees still wearing them.
It was strange last month when the air was so bad and people wore masks outside and took them off indoors.
I still occasionally see people walking on sidewalks alone wearing masks. Allergies? Bank robber without a car?
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
I see many more masks first thing in the morning and I assume that us old people shop early! I do see plenty of store employees still wearing them.
It was strange last month when the air was so bad and people wore masks outside and took them off indoors.
I still occasionally see people walking on sidewalks alone wearing masks. Allergies? Bank robber without a car?
I've worn a mask occasionally recently when on my bike when the Canadian wildfire smoke was bad.
yep I needed the mask for all outdoor work that week.The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
I see many more masks first thing in the morning and I assume that us old people shop early! I do see plenty of store employees still wearing them.
It was strange last month when the air was so bad and people wore masks outside and took them off indoors.
I still occasionally see people walking on sidewalks alone wearing masks. Allergies? Bank robber without a car?
I've worn a mask occasionally recently when on my bike when the Canadian wildfire smoke was bad.
Yes, the tiny silver lining of Covid was having N95 masks for the smoke. :-(
The last mask requirement in my town was lifted by a small shop that hung on to masking requirements in their store... they even stopped wearing them. It's officially back to normal. I wonder what it was that made them finally change their minds?
My wife and I recently visited Portland, OR and there was a small local bakery that still had a mask requirement. However, only from 7-10 AM. Apparently COVID is no longer infectious after 10 AM.
Or maybe that's when they are most crowded, or when they have an immuno-compromised worker.
I see many more masks first thing in the morning and I assume that us old people shop early! I do see plenty of store employees still wearing them.
It was strange last month when the air was so bad and people wore masks outside and took them off indoors.
I still occasionally see people walking on sidewalks alone wearing masks. Allergies? Bank robber without a car?
I've worn a mask occasionally recently when on my bike when the Canadian wildfire smoke was bad.
Yes, the tiny silver lining of Covid was having N95 masks for the smoke. :-(
I have a family member who had it 3 times last year (after 4 jabs)...so maybe gargle with alcohol after you lick the handles?
Is Covid still a topic anywhere? Nobody is even talkung about it here, anymore. Ppl are regularly back at the offices. Business travel is back to almost pre-pandemic frequency, no masking anywhere. Haven't noticed any extraordinary wave of sickness in the workplace, either. It's like 2030-2021 didn't even happen ...
My symptoms just started last night.oh, I hope you will be better soon!
I know a bunch of people who got it recently, many of whom mostly avoided it during the pandemic. Nearly all got it from travel. We’re traveling right now as well, and are happily masking on the crowded planes/airports. Barely mask anywhere else these days, but airplane/airport masking is a small price to pay for a healthy vacation and return. Catching something during travel was frequent enough even before COVID.
Maybe 3-5% masking around us observed.
I know a bunch of people who got it recently, many of whom mostly avoided it during the pandemic. Nearly all got it from travel. We’re traveling right now as well, and are happily masking on the crowded planes/airports. Barely mask anywhere else these days, but airplane/airport masking is a small price to pay for a healthy vacation and return. Catching something during travel was frequent enough even before COVID.
Maybe 3-5% masking around us observed.
We’re going on a month-long trip in mid-September, and will be masking the airport/on planes as well. Definitely don’t want to wreck our trip by getting Covid right at the beginning.
I’m noticing an uptick in masking at the grocery store.
Just got back from a two week trip - UK/Paris/Iceland.
I am one of those people that is still masking. I masked on airplanes, trains, subways, and indoors for the most part. But I ate indoors in restaurants for the first time since 2020 when outdoor seating was not possible. And several days ago when we went to a crowded museum I forgot my mask in the hotel room.
Symptoms started this morning, son and I both tested positive almost instantaneously about an hour ago.
My main symptom is body pain and a pounding head and chills. DS has a high fever. This is is his second time catching it, my first. DH and DD still symptom free and testing negative.
Wear your masks folks! :)
Just got back from a two week trip - UK/Paris/Iceland.This sucks. I've been working at my office unmasked. Now I should probably rethink it. I share an office, and I know a few people have been out sick, I assume with COVID. I know it's going around. At least my boss wears a mask when he flies in (we share an office).
I am one of those people that is still masking. I masked on airplanes, trains, subways, and indoors for the most part. But when outdoor seating was not possible I ate indoors in restaurants for the first time since 2020. And several days ago when we went to a crowded museum I forgot my mask in the hotel room.
Symptoms started this morning, son and I both tested positive almost instantaneously about an hour ago.
My main symptom is body pain and a pounding head and chills. DS has a high fever. This is his second time catching it, my first. DH and DD still symptom free and testing negative.
Wear your masks folks! :)
Just got back from a two week trip - UK/Paris/Iceland.This sucks. I've been working at my office unmasked. Now I should probably rethink it. I share an office, and I know a few people have been out sick, I assume with COVID. I know it's going around. At least my boss wears a mask when he flies in (we share an office).
I am one of those people that is still masking. I masked on airplanes, trains, subways, and indoors for the most part. But when outdoor seating was not possible I ate indoors in restaurants for the first time since 2020. And several days ago when we went to a crowded museum I forgot my mask in the hotel room.
Symptoms started this morning, son and I both tested positive almost instantaneously about an hour ago.
My main symptom is body pain and a pounding head and chills. DS has a high fever. This is his second time catching it, my first. DH and DD still symptom free and testing negative.
Wear your masks folks! :)
Hmph.
I haven't been following covid lately. Are whatever variants going on today less dangerous?
Just got back from a two week trip - UK/Paris/Iceland.
I am one of those people that is still masking. I masked on airplanes, trains, subways, and indoors for the most part. But when outdoor seating was not possible I ate indoors in restaurants for the first time since 2020. And several days ago when we went to a crowded museum I forgot my mask in the hotel room.
Symptoms started this morning, son and I both tested positive almost instantaneously about an hour ago.
My main symptom is body pain and a pounding head and chills. DS has a high fever. This is his second time catching it, my first. DH and DD still symptom free and testing negative.
Wear your masks folks! :)
Just got back from a two week trip - UK/Paris/Iceland.
I am one of those people that is still masking. I masked on airplanes, trains, subways, and indoors for the most part. But when outdoor seating was not possible I ate indoors in restaurants for the first time since 2020. And several days ago when we went to a crowded museum I forgot my mask in the hotel room.
Symptoms started this morning, son and I both tested positive almost instantaneously about an hour ago.
My main symptom is body pain and a pounding head and chills. DS has a high fever. This is his second time catching it, my first. DH and DD still symptom free and testing negative.
Wear your masks folks! :)
I never wear a mask and am unvaccinated -- have only tested positive once. Was mostly symptom free.
Just got back from a two week trip - UK/Paris/Iceland.
I am one of those people that is still masking. I masked on airplanes, trains, subways, and indoors for the most part. But when outdoor seating was not possible I ate indoors in restaurants for the first time since 2020. And several days ago when we went to a crowded museum I forgot my mask in the hotel room.
Symptoms started this morning, son and I both tested positive almost instantaneously about an hour ago.
My main symptom is body pain and a pounding head and chills. DS has a high fever. This is his second time catching it, my first. DH and DD still symptom free and testing negative.
Wear your masks folks! :)
I never wear a mask and am unvaccinated -- have only tested positive once. Was mostly symptom free.
@mizzourah2006 Just curious do you have cats and/or dogs?
I remember reading an article in Scientific American (I can still picture it, colorful bar graphs on the 2nd to last page) a few years back that tracked incidence/prevalence of human communicable diseases and bacterial and viral loads across dog, cat, both, or none types of households. The overwhelming takeaway was that pet-free households had much lower levels of disease and overall germ levels. I'm sure there are many other factors that can change the individual experience, i.e. could have a pet house with healthy humans and a non-pet house with unhealthy humans, so that it's hard to find any clear trends at the societal level but I thought that article was interesting!
Love children and pets but let's not act like they aren't giant Petri dishes! Of course, there is a ton of evidence that shows exposing kids to pet dander enhances overall immune health.
@mizzourah2006 Just curious do you have cats and/or dogs?
I remember reading an article in Scientific American (I can still picture it, colorful bar graphs on the 2nd to last page) a few years back that tracked incidence/prevalence of human communicable diseases and bacterial and viral loads across dog, cat, both, or none types of households. The overwhelming takeaway was that pet-free households had much lower levels of disease and overall germ levels. I'm sure there are many other factors that can change the individual experience, i.e. could have a pet house with healthy humans and a non-pet house with unhealthy humans, so that it's hard to find any clear trends at the societal level but I thought that article was interesting!
Love children and pets but let's not act like they aren't giant Petri dishes! Of course, there is a ton of evidence that shows exposing kids to pet dander enhances overall immune health.
The latest cold hit my wife and I pretty hard and we both developed acute bronchitis with a dry cough for a couple of weeks plus really bad sore throat for the first week or so. Our kids got the same cold but none of them had much more than some light coughing, runny nose, sore throat for a day, etc. I tested negative for COVID and this cold was definitely worse than any of the times I have tested positive for COVID (2 or 3 times).