Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"

[nedwin]

Yeah, we did the right thing and reported my wife testing positive to our 4 year old's daycare. Now i know why people don't do the right thing. We were going to hold him and his older sister out of school and watch for symptoms for the entire time my wife had to stay out of work and then send them back. That's how it works with my daughter's kindergarten. Out for 5 days and then mask for 5 more. Not so for daycare. He has to quarantine for 10 days, but the kicker is his quarantine doesn't start until my wife's quarantine is over. So he has to remain out of daycare for over 2 weeks because he's a close contact.

I don't want to downplay the seriousness of Omicron for some people, but it's literally been a mild cold for all of us. My wife said allergy season is worse for her and I just ran my fastest 2 miles of the year with it today, went on a 10 mile bike ride yesterday, etc. My daughter and son spent all day outside running around yesterday, jumping on the trampoline, etc.

This was our experience when our daughter tested positive in August.  She was out of school for ten days, but the school told us her brother had to be out for her time plus and additional ten days.  The school didn't provide him any remote instruction and we were even told he couldn't have contact with his teacher during the time he was out.  He never showed any symptoms so we sent him back 5 days after his sister and after two negative PCR tests.  My daughter, however, had remote instruction because most of her class was positive and were all sent home for 10 days.  So far her class is the only in the district (over 8000 students) to be quarantined like that.  The district board about two weeks ago removed the mask mandate but "strongly" recommended that students continue to mask. Yea, sure, that'll happen.

[SailingOnASmallSailboat]

My husband is now on day 7 of symptoms. He was in bed last night by 9:30 after napping from 5:30-7 pm. He's working remotely again and will probably need a nap to get through the day. We're hoping he doesn't end up with long COVID complications. He's 46 and otherwise in good health.

I'm sorry he's having such a rough go of it. Here's hoping no long COVID complications happen.

[jrhampt]

In Italy the law requires wearing a mask outdoors. But then you can go inside a busy restaurant or bar and sit down unmasked INDOORS surrounded by many others... does this make any sense?

Enough of these silly rules and laws that are just for theater. It's refreshing to see UK and Ireland eliminating all covid restrictions and I hope they set the precedent for the rest of Europe and North America where vaccine and treatments have been long widely accessible.

Outdoor mask wearing is pretty silly.  But then again, so is indoor dining right now IMO. 

That said, eating is one of the few things you CAN'T do with a mask on.  For everything else that you can do with a mask on, it makes sense to require it where hospital loads are high, because risk is cumulative.

The prioritization of indoor dining has been bonkers to me for this entire pandemic. There’s no rational world where schools are closed and indoor dining is open. The respective importance and risk levels of those two things are worlds apart… and yet we do not live in a rational world. The idea that so many places also kept theaters (both movie and live performance) closed for so much longer than restaurants is especially frustrating for me, both as a performer and movie enthusiast. It’s easy to just require masks on in the theater the whole time.

The Omicron wave will pass soon and then I’ll be back to the level of normalcy I enjoyed in May-June and October-November of 2021. Until this wave passes though, I’ll be more averse to indoor and un-masked interactions with people outside my household.

Agreed on all points.  All the people who complain constantly about the "theater" of mask-wearing in restaurants are ignoring the fact that indoor dining during a raging pandemic is not very prudent to begin with - having indoor dining open at all under these circumstances is really the silly part, not the mask wearing. It's a dubious compromise to help keep businesses open and keep people happy who insist on "going back to normal".  So yeah, it is kind of ridiculous when you have people being careful in all these other contexts and then packed indoor restaurants.  However, it's not necessarily the same groups of people.  If you're eating in a restaurant right now, you've accepted a certain level of risk and are throwing caution to the wind for whatever reason (unless you've just recovered from COVID, I guess).  Those of us who aren't eating in restaurants probably are looking at you a bit askance and hoping you wear a mask when we have to be around you in the grocery store etc.

I'm not in full lockdown either and adjust my level of exposure up and down based on pandemic conditions, but I'm not eating in restaurants or going to the gym until this latest wave calms down.

I just got off a call with a coworker about my age who has sounded absolutely miserable on the last few calls because she's had ongoing covid symptoms for weeks now that she just can't shake, and I know someone currently quarantined in a London hotel on her first trip to the UK because she caught COVID just before leaving the US but didn't test positive until after arriving on her vacation.  Great vacation, right?  I also know someone who has been sick ever since spending the holidays in Vegas.  You just can't "go back to normal" under these circumstances.  You can try, but you'll probably be sick for a while or worse. Is that worth it?  If you can avoid it, to me, the answer is no.  Which is why I'm about to go for yet another cold January run instead of being in a nice warm gym.  Whatever you choose, this virus is going to inconvenience you one way or another.

[seattlecyclone]

How have we not “moved on”, though?

You can go out to dinner, fly somewhere on vacation, send your kids to school, have a party, go to the gym - if those things feel safe and important to *you*.

A relatively few places require masks when cases are high.

I think this very much depends where you are.

Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces. The cafeteria isn't large enough for everyone to use it in this configuration, so they set up a big tent covering a portion of the playground and have half the kids eat out there, yes even in January. Hardly seems like "moved on" to me.

We have a statewide requirement to wear masks in essentially all indoor public places, and requirements to prove you're up to date on your shots to access many of these places. My curling club has been allowing games with masks all year, but we shut down the bar once omicron emerged. Not "moved on" at all.

Different areas are different though! We spent a couple weeks in the Midwest over the holidays visiting family, and it was basically night and day. Even at airports where a federal mask mandate persists, many folks weren't wearing masks. Watching sporting events taking place in that area, I've seen basically like a 5% mask wearing rate. A very different set of customs has emerged there.

[StashingAway]

Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.

This is so disheartening.

[joemcd333]

Let her rip! No mandates! No passports! Let the kids have fun. I'm so over this. Your health is not my responsibility.

[mm1970]

——
And to chime in with my general sentiment towards the topic of the thread: I think “back to normal” is pretty much warranted when we’re in the lulls in between variants. Before Delta and before Omicron there were long periods where most people were behaving with a much higher risk tolerance, and case counts remained low, demonstrating those behaviors weren’t causing big problems. At this point, new waves are caused by variants as opposed to behavior/policy change, and vaccines that prevent serious illness are widely available. As long as community spread is low and hospitals aren’t overwhelmed, we can chill a bit. The problem is that many people don’t want to deal with complicated and changing conditions, and so they let their guard down back when vaccines became available and they’re not going to put it back up come hell or high water. I personally wouldn’t join the people who have remained in personal lock-down this whole time either, but at least they’re not causing problems for everyone else.

The Omicron wave will pass soon and then I’ll be back to the level of normalcy I enjoyed in May-June and October-November of 2021. Until this wave passes though, I’ll be more averse to indoor and un-masked interactions with people outside my household.

Same

I'm not in full lockdown either and adjust my level of exposure up and down based on pandemic conditions, but I'm not eating in restaurants or going to the gym until this latest wave calms down.

I just got off a call with a coworker about my age who has sounded absolutely miserable on the last few calls because she's had ongoing covid symptoms for weeks now that she just can't shake, and I know someone currently quarantined in a London hotel on her first trip to the UK because she caught COVID just before leaving the US but didn't test positive until after arriving on her vacation.  Great vacation, right?  I also know someone who has been sick ever since spending the holidays in Vegas.  You just can't "go back to normal" under these circumstances.  You can try, but you'll probably be sick for a while or worse. Is that worth it?  If you can avoid it, to me, the answer is no.  Which is why I'm about to go for yet another cold January run instead of being in a nice warm gym.  Whatever you choose, this virus is going to inconvenience you one way or another.

This is where I am too.  I don't like cold runs.  I know the pool at the Y is open.  But it's indoors.  They have also opened up "family swim" times.  My 9 yo is BEGGING to go back to the pool.  He hasn't been since July.

As I sit and consider spring break (late March), I am looking into the couple of dog friendly nice hotels with heated pools (still cold on the Central Coast in March though)...but then I think...for the same $ as 3-4  nights at a hotel, I could consider joining the foo foo local gym for 6 months.  It has an outdoor pool for kids.  I hate to pay $250-300 a month though, when literally we probably will go only once per week.  Hm. Then again, I'm paying $110 a month for the Y and we haven't been since July...

[nereo]

Your health is not my responsibility.

[nedwin]

Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.

This is so disheartening.

Yea, this sounds horrible.

[joemcd333]

Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.

This is so disheartening.

Yea, this sounds horrible.

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

[BeanCounter]

Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.

This is so disheartening.

Yea, this sounds horrible.

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

Adults many of whom don’t care about being safe.
It wasn’t lost on my 9yo that he was stuck at home, missing a week of school and sports even though he felt fine while also watching news reports of our entire city, unmasked, in packed bars celebrating our NFL team’s playoff win.

The more I think about the more angry it makes me.
Because just like another mom said to me “if you wouldn’t have tested him then we all could have gone on like normal”

[GodlessCommie]

Speaking of who went back to normal - from Nate Silver's twitter:
OpenTable restaurant reservations in January 2022 as compared with January 2019:

Miami: +14%
Las Vegas: +1%
Houston: -13%
Denver: -26%
LA: -41%
Boston: -48%
Brooklyn: -55%
DC: -59%
Manhattan: -64%
San Francisco: -66%
Cambridge, MA: -75%

I wonder how much of it is behavior, and how much policy.

[GodlessCommie]

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.

[HPstache]

Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces.

This is so disheartening.

Yea, this sounds horrible.

Maybe that's why I'm more upset with Covid than others... my kids have the same situation.

[mizzourah2006]

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.

Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.

[scottish]

How have we not “moved on”, though?

You can go out to dinner, fly somewhere on vacation, send your kids to school, have a party, go to the gym - if those things feel safe and important to *you*.

A relatively few places require masks when cases are high.

I'm in Canada.  We shut down schools, universities, restaurants and gyms for January.    Quebec even implemented a curfew from 22h00 to 05h00.   We haven't moved on.    Most of the US has, at least by our standards.

[startingsmall]

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.

Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.

Yes, this. I was the biggest COVID rule-follower of them all at the beginning, but now most COVID deaths are largely optional. Yes, there are people who are immunosuppressed or have other underlying conditions that make them more susceptible even once vaccinated, and I really do feel for those people. BUT, I don't see that we can keep up 2020-level precautions forever for a small percentage of the population. Those individuals may have to wear an N-95 long-term and do their own risk assessments on activities... which sucks, but that's what some chemotherapy patients did pre-COVID, so it's not unprecedented.

I'm in Florida. Overall, I've HATED our response to the pandemic, obviously. I still have very mixed feelings about the fact that my daughter's school is 100% back to the way it was pre-pandemic. At the same time, when I hear about how school currently "works" in other states, I can't help feeling a little bit grateful that she's having a normal school year with friends, school events, etc. Masks were optional... she wore one in the fall, along with several other kids, but she got vaccinated around the time that her last classmate stopped wearing a mask and so I let her stop wearing one at that time. Sure, it makes me a little nervous, but I think that the benefit of wearing one probably didn't outweigh the risk. (She's vaccinated, and my husband & I are vaccinated and boostered, so it would likely be mild for us.)

I even chaperoned on a school field trip today... and while riding on a school bus with an unmasked class of 4th graders requires you to enter a certain state of COVID denial, it was a fun and educational day. I'm glad that she didn't have to miss out on normal school stuff for yet another year.

[StarBright]

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.

I know my kids don't love wearing masks but I have a sh*tty immune system and they do it to protect me.

I'd bet they were more traumatized by the lady on the playground that told them their parents were abusing them by making them wear masks.

And probably by worrying that I will get too sick to take care of them.

And I worry that they will be traumatized from having to frequently defend themselves for wearing masks when their friends make fun of them.

And of course by their Sunday school teacher dying.

I live in a place that is basically the opposite of Seattle though. People here haven't worn masks in public spaces since early 2020. And there doesn't seem to be a live and let live attitude with mask wearing either. People are very vocal about how masks offend them.

I am sure some town, somewhere, has hit almost the perfect balance of "as normal as possible under the circumstances" but it isn't Seattle apparently, and it isn't where I live either.  (I suspect a lot of us might live in places operating under either extreme and we are probably all talking at cross purposes.)

[nedwin]

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.

I believe I can help my children grieve the death of a grandparent or a school acquaintance and come out the other side none-the-worse.  We have done so already for the deaths a couple great-grandparents, a beloved aunt and a couple family pets.  I am not confident that kindegarten as Seattle describes is less damaging to kids than the death of a grandparent.  My (limited) understanding of early childhood education is that group play is foundational to teaching behaviors that are needed throughout life, which benefit society through reduced crime and increased lifetime income.

If similar circumstances were present in my school district there would significant parent demonstrations, to the point of marching with pitch forks and burning cars in the street.  Already a mask mandate lead to the defeat of a bond issue for badly needed new schools (all current schools are over capacity due to ~10% average yearly student growth), bitter school board elections, resignation of the superintendent and school board president, and recall efforts for the remaining members.  Our region also experienced a wave of student suicide over the summer of '20 and school year of 20/21.  Weighing the social strife and disruption associated with school closings, restrictions and mandates against the risks of COVID and "getting back to normal," I am on the side of getting back to normal.

[badger1988]

After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.

So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...

[PDXTabs]

Adults many of whom don’t care about being safe.
It wasn’t lost on my 9yo that he was stuck at home, missing a week of school and sports even though he felt fine while also watching news reports of our entire city, unmasked, in packed bars celebrating our NFL team’s playoff win.

The more I think about the more angry it makes me.
Because just like another mom said to me “if you wouldn’t have tested him then we all could have gone on like normal”

I think that this is a really good point. Society had a certain amount of COVID case capacity. A lot of reasonable people could debate what to spend that capacity on be it government services, supply chain, or unmasked small children in schools. What did we spend it on? Bars and sportsball and going to the bars after a sportsball games. 'Murica.

[HPstache]

After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.

So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...

Not really a choice, regardless.   Unless you're going to lie, Hawaii won't let you in if you have a close contact.  We traveled there in October and that place is super strict.

[HPstache]

Adults many of whom don’t care about being safe.
It wasn’t lost on my 9yo that he was stuck at home, missing a week of school and sports even though he felt fine while also watching news reports of our entire city, unmasked, in packed bars celebrating our NFL team’s playoff win.

Off topic, but curious as a Niners fan...  Is Portland's "team" SF or LA?

[GodlessCommie]

Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.

Safer, but not safe. Covid deaths are not 100% among unvaccinated. Both Mrs.Jones and Mr.Phillips are in the demographics that is likely to take Covid significantly worse than others, even if they don't die. Also, hard to imagine for most people on this board, but they can't be choosy about where they work.

[PDXTabs]

@v8rx7guy,

I think that you messed up that quote box. Also, I thought that most american football fans in Portland were Seahawks fans?

[PDXTabs]

Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.

Safer, but not safe. Covid deaths are not 100% among unvaccinated. Both Mrs.Jones and Mr.Phillips are in the demographics that is likely to take Covid significantly worse than others, even if they don't die. Also, hard to imagine for most people on this board, but they can't be choosy about where they work.

Wearing a seat-belt and a bicycle helmet and putting your kids in the back seat is safer but not safe. Speaking of which, do Mrs. Jones and Mr. Phillips drive to work? It's a serious question and will change how much I care if they live or die.

[Captain FIRE]

Adults many of whom don’t care about being safe.
It wasn’t lost on my 9yo that he was stuck at home, missing a week of school and sports even though he felt fine while also watching news reports of our entire city, unmasked, in packed bars celebrating our NFL team’s playoff win.

The more I think about the more angry it makes me.
Because just like another mom said to me “if you wouldn’t have tested him then we all could have gone on like normal”

I think that this is a really good point. Society had a certain amount of COVID case capacity. A lot of reasonable people could debate what to spend that capacity on be it government services, supply chain, or unmasked small children in schools. What did we spend it on? Bars and sportsball and going to the bars after a sportsball games. 'Murica.

Yep.  Although I object to the "we".  I and most of my friends did not cash in any chips here, and have done what I can to avoid getting it.  There are many who have not been going to bars, sporting events, dinner, etc. My area is on the bottom of that OpenTable reservations list above.  I don't get annoyed at the illogic of masking to walk to a table at a restaurant because I don't go to them.  It doesn't impact me because the whole exercise of eating inside is higher risk than I am comfortable with right now.

I have an ethics background, and I still personally feel that the the hierarchy of treatment ought to be vaccinated > unvaccinated when there is insufficient capacity.  You made your bed, you lie in it.  That goes completely against ethical reasoning though.  I could not be a clinician.

[Captain FIRE]

After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.

So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...

Not really a choice, regardless.   Unless you're going to lie, Hawaii won't let you in if you have a close contact.  We traveled there in October and that place is super strict.

A friend in Maui posted on Facebook that their only hospital is completely full.  Scary place to be.  Not a lot of choices on an island if you need treatment...

[PDXTabs]

I have an ethics background, and I still personally feel that the the hierarchy of treatment ought to be vaccinated > unvaccinated when there is insufficient capacity.  You made your bed, you lie in it.  That goes completely against ethical reasoning though.  I could not be a clinician.

I'm actually curious to hear you explanation as to why it goes "completely against ethical reasoning." To the extent that Oxford Languages defines ethics as "the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles" and moral principles are arguably provably relative, couldn't it go either way?

I would add my own twist: we could have prioritized medical conditions that aren't COVID above COVID and built a bunch of field hospitals for the COVID patients, without regard to vaccine status.

[StashingAway]

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.

Yes, that as well is a terrible situation. So what we need to do is a simple societal-level prognosis. We know, roughly, how many people die from Covid. We can likely project how many more deaths/long covid are caused by unmasked, playing children compared to masked ones. All we have to do is put a value to that number as well as a value to the damage we're doing to school children by masking up endlessly. It's a hard calculation to make and should be done by professionals with open communication. But the fact of the matter is that at some point we cannot save everyone. Some of these rules are treating this like the unknown, untreatable disesease of spring of 2020... where we were flatting the curve to try to buy us some time to figure out what was going on.  It's like we're still sprinting when we should be running a marathon.

If we try to prevent as many deaths as we can, with no limit, then we should ban cars, sugar, banana peels and everything else with a slight risk. We make this calculation as a society all the time.

[PDXTabs]

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.

Yes, that as well is a terrible situation. So what we need to do is a simple societal-level prognosis. We know, roughly, how many people die from Covid. We can likely project how many more deaths/long covid are caused by unmasked, playing children compared to masked ones. All we have to do is put a value to that number as well as a value to the damage we're doing to school children by masking up endlessly. It's a hard calculation to make and should be done by professionals with open communication. But the fact of the matter is that at some point we cannot save everyone. Some of these rules are treating this like the unknown, untreatable disesease of spring of 2020... where we were flatting the curve to try to buy us some time to figure out what was going on.  It's like we're still sprinting when we should be running a marathon.

If we try to prevent as many deaths as we can, with no limit, then we should ban cars, sugar, banana peels and everything else with a slight risk. We make this calculation as a society all the time.

If we want to live in a fantasy world where the US government is functional and trustworthy we could also choose to give Mrs. Jones and Mr.Phillips long term leave with pay and hire some people who are less at risk. Also, feel free to ban cars and sugar while you are at it.

[GuitarStv]

Imparting lasting psychological damage on children, all in the name of keeping adults "safe". Its unbelievably selfish.

Meanwhile, knowing that your own grandma is dead, Mrs.Jones from the cafeteria is dead, and Mr.Phillips the janitor is dead also, does not impart lasting psychological damage on children.

Yes, that as well is a terrible situation. So what we need to do is a simple societal-level prognosis. We know, roughly, how many people die from Covid. We can likely project how many more deaths/long covid are caused by unmasked, playing children compared to masked ones. All we have to do is put a value to that number as well as a value to the damage we're doing to school children by masking up endlessly. It's a hard calculation to make and should be done by professionals with open communication. But the fact of the matter is that at some point we cannot save everyone. Some of these rules are treating this like the unknown, untreatable disesease of spring of 2020... where we were flatting the curve to try to buy us some time to figure out what was going on.  It's like we're still sprinting when we should be running a marathon.

If we try to prevent as many deaths as we can, with no limit, then we should ban cars, sugar, banana peels and everything else with a slight risk. We make this calculation as a society all the time.

If we want to live in a fantasy world where the US government is functional and trustworthy we could also choose to give Mrs. Jones and Mr.Phillips long term leave with pay and hire some people who are less at risk. Also, feel free to ban cars and sugar while you are at it.

You can ban your cars . . . but you'll get my sugar over my cold, morbidly obese body.

[badger1988]

After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.

So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...

Not really a choice, regardless.   Unless you're going to lie, Hawaii won't let you in if you have a close contact.  We traveled there in October and that place is super strict.

Not according to their latest guidance (assuming we remain symptom free and test negative on day 5 after exposure):
https://health.hawaii.gov/news/newsroom/doh-revises-states-isolation-quarantine-policy/

[HPstache]

After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.

So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...

Not really a choice, regardless.   Unless you're going to lie, Hawaii won't let you in if you have a close contact.  We traveled there in October and that place is super strict.

Not according to their latest guidance (assuming we remain symptom free and test negative on day 5 after exposure):
https://health.hawaii.gov/news/newsroom/doh-revises-states-isolation-quarantine-policy/

That's not their requirements for traveling to Hawaii.   There is a questionnaire about exposure that you need to fill out prior to departure that asks if you've been in close contact with anyone with a positive covid covid test within 2 weeks (10 days?).

[OtherJen]

I have an ethics background, and I still personally feel that the the hierarchy of treatment ought to be vaccinated > unvaccinated when there is insufficient capacity.  You made your bed, you lie in it.  That goes completely against ethical reasoning though.  I could not be a clinician.

I'm actually curious to hear you explanation as to why it goes "completely against ethical reasoning." To the extent that Oxford Languages defines ethics as "the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles" and moral principles are arguably provably relative, couldn't it go either way?

I would add my own twist: we could have prioritized medical conditions that aren't COVID above COVID and built a bunch of field hospitals for the COVID patients, without regard to vaccine status.

We're not setting up field hospitals for COVID patients in Michigan this wave because there aren't enough clinical staff to run them. We had them in Detroit and Grand Rapids in 2020, before the clinicians burned out and started leaving the profession in droves.

[PDXTabs]

I have an ethics background, and I still personally feel that the the hierarchy of treatment ought to be vaccinated > unvaccinated when there is insufficient capacity.  You made your bed, you lie in it.  That goes completely against ethical reasoning though.  I could not be a clinician.

I'm actually curious to hear you explanation as to why it goes "completely against ethical reasoning." To the extent that Oxford Languages defines ethics as "the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles" and moral principles are arguably provably relative, couldn't it go either way?

I would add my own twist: we could have prioritized medical conditions that aren't COVID above COVID and built a bunch of field hospitals for the COVID patients, without regard to vaccine status.

We're not setting up field hospitals for COVID patients in Michigan this wave because there aren't enough clinical staff to run them. We had them in Detroit and Grand Rapids in 2020, before the clinicians burned out and started leaving the profession in droves.

That is certainly a problem. But my statement still stands: we could have prioritized medical conditions that aren't COVID above COVID and built a bunch of field hospitals for the COVID patients even if they weren't staffed. You get a cot and some oxygen that someone who totally isn't a nurse handed you. Maybe don't get sick.

[Cranky]

How have we not “moved on”, though?

You can go out to dinner, fly somewhere on vacation, send your kids to school, have a party, go to the gym - if those things feel safe and important to *you*.

A relatively few places require masks when cases are high.

I think this very much depends where you are.

Here in Seattle kids haven't had mask-free school since the pandemic began. In kindergarten there's no group play in class, it's all individual at their desks. At lunch time they have the kids in assigned spots, using every other chair, everyone facing north so they're not breathing into each others' faces. The cafeteria isn't large enough for everyone to use it in this configuration, so they set up a big tent covering a portion of the playground and have half the kids eat out there, yes even in January. Hardly seems like "moved on" to me.

We have a statewide requirement to wear masks in essentially all indoor public places, and requirements to prove you're up to date on your shots to access many of these places. My curling club has been allowing games with masks all year, but we shut down the bar once omicron emerged. Not "moved on" at all.

Different areas are different though! We spent a couple weeks in the Midwest over the holidays visiting family, and it was basically night and day. Even at airports where a federal mask mandate persists, many folks weren't wearing masks. Watching sporting events taking place in that area, I've seen basically like a 5% mask wearing rate. A very different set of customs has emerged there.

I don’t find wearing masks a problem, so that’s just a “new normal” thing for me - kids wear them to school here, we wear them to our exercise class, etc. It’s very cold so I wear a mask outside for comfort. But I can *do* anything I want - the city buildings are all open, etc.

Also, I think a lot of parents didn’t keep their kids home when they were supposed to and are pretty complainy about doing it now.

[badger1988]

After successfully dodging this thing for nearly 2 years, two of my boys tested positive today. They got it from a friend that comes to our house for before-school care.

So, here I am cancelling the trip my wife and I had booked to Kauai. Can't quite bring ourselves to have my inlaws watch their covid-positive grandkids while we go backbacking in Hawaii...

Not really a choice, regardless.   Unless you're going to lie, Hawaii won't let you in if you have a close contact.  We traveled there in October and that place is super strict.

Not according to their latest guidance (assuming we remain symptom free and test negative on day 5 after exposure):
https://health.hawaii.gov/news/newsroom/doh-revises-states-isolation-quarantine-policy/

That's not their requirements for traveling to Hawaii.   There is a questionnaire about exposure that you need to fill out prior to departure that asks if you've been in close contact with anyone with a positive covid covid test within 2 weeks (10 days?).

"24 hours prior to departure, answer the health questionnaire on your Safe Travels account. This requirement will end on January 4, 2022."

https://www.gohawaii.com/travel-requirements

[startingsmall]

I'm just gonna drop this here and run...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/kids-masks-schools-weak-science/621133/

I've read a lot of these studies over the last six months or so. In doing so, I've started to really question to what extent masking is an evidence-based intervention and to what extent it has just become another way to polarize ourselves and identify with our preferred "in group." (I honestly don't know the answer to that, and I'm finding that I have a lot more questions than answers these days.)

[trollwithamustache]

I'm just gonna drop this here and run...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/kids-masks-schools-weak-science/621133/

I've read a lot of these studies over the last six months or so. In doing so, I've started to really question to what extent masking is an evidence-based intervention and to what extent it has just become another way to polarize ourselves and identify with our preferred "in group." (I honestly don't know the answer to that, and I'm finding that I have a lot more questions than answers these days.)

Masks may or may not work, I have my doubts about non N95s. But I do know in my town, if you drive by the schools when they let out, you can see lots of kids without masks together, horse-playing, sharing food, ect , like kids do. (and should do!)

[Shane]

I'm just gonna drop this here and run...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/kids-masks-schools-weak-science/621133/

I've read a lot of these studies over the last six months or so. In doing so, I've started to really question to what extent masking is an evidence-based intervention and to what extent it has just become another way to polarize ourselves and identify with our preferred "in group." (I honestly don't know the answer to that, and I'm finding that I have a lot more questions than answers these days.)

Good article. Thanks for sharing. Hopefully, the authors' credentials will lend some much needed credibility to the argument against forcing kids to wear masks at school.

[StarBright]

I'm just gonna drop this here and run...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/kids-masks-schools-weak-science/621133/

I've read a lot of these studies over the last six months or so. In doing so, I've started to really question to what extent masking is an evidence-based intervention and to what extent it has just become another way to polarize ourselves and identify with our preferred "in group." (I honestly don't know the answer to that, and I'm finding that I have a lot more questions than answers these days.)

 

I think this article makes a good point that there are confounders beyond mask wearing. I'd say it makes a good argument for easing mask restrictions in places with good vaccination rates.

Our school district has tried to go mask free twice this year and both times it took less than a month for us to have to shut down some schools, cut off transportation services and for the district to then reimplement mask requirements.

But our vaccination rate is well under the national average, and our state has been trending in the top 10 for deaths per 100k for the last two months (per NYT). When only half the people in town are vaccinated, it seems like masks help slow transmission, and per the Atlantic article, that also seemed to be the case in the CDC study in Arizona.

It probably can't be done, but there is an argument for restrictions on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis (at least when it comes to schools and public services).

[Villanelle]

Shouldn't all of these people be safe if they are vaccinated? That's what all the data seems to be saying. I'd argue if Mrs. Jones doesn't want to get vaccinated she probably shouldn't be working in a school cafeteria during a pandemic. Same for Mr. Phillips.

Safer, but not safe. Covid deaths are not 100% among unvaccinated. Both Mrs.Jones and Mr.Phillips are in the demographics that is likely to take Covid significantly worse than others, even if they don't die. Also, hard to imagine for most people on this board, but they can't be choosy about where they work.

And death is not the only negative side effect.  I was vaxxed and boosted when I got sick with presumptive Covid.  I wasn't 2 weeks out from my booster, so that wasn't at full efficacy, but I had three shots on board.  SPOILER ALERT: I didn't die.

But I'm about 7 weeks out from my first symptoms, and 6 weeks from "recovery" and I'm still dealing with unpleasant things, and I certainly fortunate in the realm of those with longer term Covid effects.

For those who want to return to "normal", dead and disable teachers and grandmothers, being taught (or perhaps "taught" would be more accurate) by whatever district admin or National Guard member is assigned to your class for a few days because so many teachers are out sick, disabled, or dead, etc., not being able to get medical care when hospitals are overrun ("sorry you feel off the monkey bars and broke your arm, Timmy.  In 20-30 hours a doctor might be able to see you to treat that broken bone, but until then, take some Advil for the excruciating pain and try not to move"), stores closed without notice because too many employees are sick to open the the doors, etc.--that's not normal either.

I'd love to return to normal, as defined roughly as "the same amount of basic health precautions we took in 2019".  I can think of almost no one who wouldn't LOVE to return to that.  But sadly, the virus-infected ship has sailed on that.  It's now just deciding what version of "different, new normal" we will adopt.

For those decrying what this is doing to our kids, I'm a bit fascinated because I have plenty of friends bemoaning what happened when masks were removed in schools, and those schools had outbreaks and had to shut down in-person learning entirely.  And what is happening to their children's education due to the revolving door of teachers and glorified babysitters running classrooms.  Some of that might ease if we stopped quarantining, but I don't see how we could argue that all of it would, especially when schools that remove protections tend to see more disease (curious that, no?), as StarBright attested to.

If we removed every Covid precaution except vaccines for those who want them, things would not look like December 2019.  I can accept and agree with arguments that we need to start be more strategic in what methods we deploy, when we deploy them and for whom, and how.  But "2019 normal" just isn't going to happen.

[StashingAway]

For those decrying what this is doing to our kids, I'm a bit fascinated because I have plenty of friends bemoaning what happened when masks were removed in schools, and those schools had outbreaks and had to shut down in-person learning entirely.  And what is happening to their children's education due to the revolving door of teachers and glorified babysitters running classrooms.  Some of that might ease if we stopped quarantining, but I don't see how we could argue that all of it would, especially when schools that remove protections tend to see more disease (curious that, no?), as StarBright attested to.

So put valuation to all of those events and run an equation. It boils down to: Is masking kids > not masking them, all variables roughly accounted for? We can quantify most of this stuff with fairly good accuracy- virus experts can predict where outbreaks are going to happen and to what extent. Both "sides" are only worrying about their particular brand of fear- whether that be overloaded hospitals, long covid, or permanently de-socialized generation of citizens. I don't want to downplay the seriousness of Covid- but it seems that there are some who are not concerned at all about the very real costs of this groundhog day of limbo. I don't actually know the answer, other than that I think that we have the tools to figure it out, knowing that whatever decision we make there WILL be costs. I will happily keep following the rules (as I have been) once I know that we aren't reacting based on intuition. Coming from a hypochondriac- there's real damage to be done when hyper focused on illness.

As far as fear goes; we should all be absolutely terrified of chairs. Certain researchers have been studying and showing that there is a higher correlate to sitting for cardiovascular disease than BMI or any of the other factors that we typically measure. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7554455/
That's not to make light of Covid (I am vaxxed and boosted and doing my best to avoid it, although with how it travels through people in my age group I may have had it already and been none the wiser). It's just - If we're being hyper sensitive to Covid we may be misplacing some of that energy. I am not certain of that last point, just suspicious of it.

[GuitarStv]

For those decrying what this is doing to our kids, I'm a bit fascinated because I have plenty of friends bemoaning what happened when masks were removed in schools, and those schools had outbreaks and had to shut down in-person learning entirely.  And what is happening to their children's education due to the revolving door of teachers and glorified babysitters running classrooms.  Some of that might ease if we stopped quarantining, but I don't see how we could argue that all of it would, especially when schools that remove protections tend to see more disease (curious that, no?), as StarBright attested to.

So put valuation to all of those events and run an equation. It boils down to: Is masking kids > not masking them, all variables roughly accounted for? We can quantify most of this stuff with fairly good accuracy- virus experts can predict where outbreaks are going to happen and to what extent. Both "sides" are only worrying about their particular brand of fear- whether that be overloaded hospitals, long covid, or permanently de-socialized generation of citizens. I don't want to downplay the seriousness of Covid- but it seems that there are some who are not concerned at all about the very real costs of this groundhog day of limbo. I don't actually know the answer, other than that I think that we have the tools to figure it out, knowing that whatever decision we make there WILL be costs. I will happily keep following the rules (as I have been) once I know that we aren't reacting based on intuition. Coming from a hypochondriac- there's real damage to be done when hyper focused on illness.

As far as fear goes; we should all be absolutely terrified of chairs. Certain researchers have been studying and showing that there is a higher correlate to sitting for cardiovascular disease than BMI or any of the other factors that we typically measure. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7554455/
That's not to make light of Covid (I am vaxxed and boosted and doing my best to avoid it, although with how it travels through people in my age group I may have had it already and been none the wiser). It's just - If we're being hyper sensitive to Covid we may be misplacing some of that energy. I am not certain of that last point, just suspicious of it.

Good thing we all know that correlation does not equal causation.  I'd warrant that a study could easily be created that compared the health of elite athletes who sit a lot between training sessions and sedentary people who lie down rather than sit during the day and find that sitting is great for your health.  :P

The article linked is pretty clear that the problem is caused by people being sedentary - not by chairs.

[mm1970]

I don't want to downplay the seriousness of Covid- but it seems that there are some who are not concerned at all about the very real costs of this groundhog day of limbo.

But how do you define "limbo" vs "new normal"?

If we decide that kids will wear masks indoors at school (and adults will wear masks indoors) from now on - or, whenever it's cold/flu/COVID season, then it's not limbo anymore, is it?  I will personally wear a mask on a plane forever and ever now.

I'm not a huge fan of this either.  There are things I used to do that I don't do.  But even with that - thinking about gyms, travel, etc...I have plenty of memories on FB that tell me starting about 5-7 years ago, I stopped going to the gym during cold & flu season, every year.  I'd occasionally go to a spin class, where I would wipe down the bike and touch nothing else.  OR, I'd go to the pool and touch no equipment... So, there's some history in my past that showed that I got tired of getting sick every winter.

[BeanCounter]

Our state department of health just announced that they would no longer be doing contact tracing. Basically they know it's futile.
But the CDC says that you should wear a mask if your exposed. Not sure how exactly we'll know who is exposed now, but whatever.

[frugalnacho]

It's the voluntary honor system.  It's been working pretty good so far.

[OtherJen]

This shit is no joke. I thought I escaped with a week of heavy fatigue and some sniffles/scratchy throat. Nope. Full-blown upper respiratory symptoms for the past 24 hours, plus fever. I passed out on the sofa for 2 hours this afternoon. Took a short shower because even the thought of both shampooing and conditioning my hair was exhausting.

This is after full vaccination and a booster in early December. Hopefully this is the worst of it. I've never been this sick with just a cold.

[calimom]

This shit is no joke. I thought I escaped with a week of heavy fatigue and some sniffles/scratchy throat. Nope. Full-blown upper respiratory symptoms for the past 24 hours, plus fever. I passed out on the sofa for 2 hours this afternoon. Took a short shower because even the thought of both shampooing and conditioning my hair was exhausting.

This is after full vaccination and a booster in early December. Hopefully this is the worst of it. I've never been this sick with just a cold.

Internet hugs for you and hope you have a full return to health, and very soon. This shit is not to be messed with.

I saw on the news tonight a heart transplant patient in Utah is stubbornly denying the vaccine, which is required before the hospital he's in will agree to give him a new heart. He'd rather dig into his  misguided beliefs than comply with the thing that will literally save his life.