Author Topic: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"  (Read 212977 times)

GodlessCommie

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #550 on: January 12, 2022, 09:26:46 AM »
Stealing from @GuitarStv in another topic:
Quote
"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext

They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator.  Alarming.

With this in mind, I wonder how it changes attitudes on living with Covid now. A lot of "getting back to normal" hinged on the assumption that a healthy younger person has nothing to fear, the only reason to continue limiting ourselves was to care for others.

Now it's clear that Covid hurts even healthy and young, even when symptoms are mild. Not just hurts - it hits the most important asset of many on this forum, our intelligence. It literally makes us dumber.

It may be too late now, of course. The horse is already out of the barn. But I wonder if support for continued containment efforts would have been higher if young, healthy, and smart knew that they were a risk group, too.

sui generis

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #551 on: January 12, 2022, 09:41:51 AM »
It just feels weird because we were shut down and had mask mandates when this all started. Now cases are terrible and everyone is just like "oh well, can't do anything about it. Keep moving."  The difference is we have vaccines and treatments to keep the vast majority of us from dying.

But it makes sense if the goal the whole time was to prevent or limit the overwhelm on the medical system.  Can you imagine if Omicron had been the original strain?  None of us vaxxed, no prep at all?  So, it isn't totally crazy that the lockdowns and reactions are less severe now that we have better interventions in place to (partially) protect our medical system.

Stealing from @GuitarStv in another topic:
Quote
"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext

They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator.  Alarming.

With this in mind, I wonder how it changes attitudes on living with Covid now. A lot of "getting back to normal" hinged on the assumption that a healthy younger person has nothing to fear, the only reason to continue limiting ourselves was to care for others.

Now it's clear that Covid hurts even healthy and young, even when symptoms are mild. Not just hurts - it hits the most important asset of many on this forum, our intelligence. It literally makes us dumber.

It may be too late now, of course. The horse is already out of the barn. But I wonder if support for continued containment efforts would have been higher if young, healthy, and smart knew that they were a risk group, too.

Maybe!  But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known.  I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves.  I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?

GodlessCommie

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #552 on: January 12, 2022, 09:46:02 AM »
Maybe!  But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known.  I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves.  I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?

I'm with you here. One group that may have had a stronger reaction, though, is parents. Especially parents who expect their kids to go to college. Coincidentally, this group has a lot of weight politically. "Covid will make Jonny dumber" is a damn potent message.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 09:51:46 AM by GodlessCommie »

HPstache

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #553 on: January 12, 2022, 09:49:53 AM »
It just feels weird because we were shut down and had mask mandates when this all started. Now cases are terrible and everyone is just like "oh well, can't do anything about it. Keep moving."  The difference is we have vaccines and treatments to keep the vast majority of us from dying.

But it makes sense if the goal the whole time was to prevent or limit the overwhelm on the medical system.  Can you imagine if Omicron had been the original strain?  None of us vaxxed, no prep at all?  So, it isn't totally crazy that the lockdowns and reactions are less severe now that we have better interventions in place to (partially) protect our medical system.

Stealing from @GuitarStv in another topic:
Quote
"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext

They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator.  Alarming.

With this in mind, I wonder how it changes attitudes on living with Covid now. A lot of "getting back to normal" hinged on the assumption that a healthy younger person has nothing to fear, the only reason to continue limiting ourselves was to care for others.

Now it's clear that Covid hurts even healthy and young, even when symptoms are mild. Not just hurts - it hits the most important asset of many on this forum, our intelligence. It literally makes us dumber.

It may be too late now, of course. The horse is already out of the barn. But I wonder if support for continued containment efforts would have been higher if young, healthy, and smart knew that they were a risk group, too.

Maybe!  But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known.  I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves.  I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?

Could it be similar to the "pump head syndrome" that some people experience when being on a heart/lung machine during open heart surgery?

GuitarStv

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #554 on: January 12, 2022, 09:50:57 AM »
Maybe!  But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known.  I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves.  I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?

I'm with you here. One group that may have had a stronger reaction, though, is parents. Especially parents who expect their kids to go to college. Coincidentally, this group has a lot of weight politically.

The focus only on deaths led many people to believe that if they're young and healthy there's no real risk at all.  I think that messaging that covid could make you permentantly stupid (even only a little bit) it would have had a significant impact.  But that line of conjecture is pointless.

A huge chunk of the population has had covid now . . . the question is what do we do to try to help those who are experiencing reduced intelligence now as a result of this disease?

sui generis

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #555 on: January 12, 2022, 09:55:54 AM »
Maybe!  But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known.  I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves.  I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?

I'm with you here. One group that may have had a stronger reaction, though, is parents. Especially parents who expect their kids to go to college. Coincidentally, this group has a lot of weight politically. "Covid will make Jonny dumber" is a damn potent message.

That's a good point and it reminds me of Zika a few years back.  Of course it wasn't nearly as transmissable, but IME people took real care if they were of childbearing age, because they didn't want their kids to be affected.  And as @GuitarStv pointed out, the heavy messaging on death early on didn't help.  With Zika, I suppose (but can't actually remember?) that there was some talk of risk of death, but the focus from the beginning was on health generally and reproduction specifically.  So maybe the focus on death with COVID did have a perverse way of making other effects, which we would normally think of as *very* concerning, seem like NBD.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #556 on: January 12, 2022, 09:58:47 AM »
Maybe!  But I have a feeling that, like climate change, anything that's not immediate and relatively devastating wouldn't have captured people's attention enough to make a *significant* change, even had it been known.  I do think it would have made a small difference, but that most people would have continued on as they actually did, absent extended footage of young adults losing the cognitive capacity to feed and bathe themselves.  I'm a cynic on humans, but 7 points dumber *IF* you were placed on a ventilator just doesn't seem like something that would scare a lot of people because they would assume a) they would not be the ones placed on a ventilator and b) 7 points is <shrug>?

I'm with you here. One group that may have had a stronger reaction, though, is parents. Especially parents who expect their kids to go to college. Coincidentally, this group has a lot of weight politically. "Covid will make Jonny dumber" is a damn potent message.

That's a good point and it reminds me of Zika a few years back.  Of course it wasn't nearly as transmissable, but IME people took real care if they were of childbearing age, because they didn't want their kids to be affected.  And as @GuitarStv pointed out, the heavy messaging on death early on didn't help.  With Zika, I suppose (but can't actually remember?) that there was some talk of risk of death, but the focus from the beginning was on health generally and reproduction specifically.  So maybe the focus on death with COVID did have a perverse way of making other effects, which we would normally think of as *very* concerning, seem like NBD.

Yes, especially as the earlier messaging was "oh, it only kills old people and they're going to die soon anyway."

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #557 on: January 12, 2022, 11:31:56 AM »
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.

Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone?  It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten.  And the Pfizer trials aren't going well.  As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating. 

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #558 on: January 12, 2022, 11:37:39 AM »
Stealing from @GuitarStv in another topic:
Quote
"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext

They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator.  Alarming.

With this in mind, I wonder how it changes attitudes on living with Covid now. A lot of "getting back to normal" hinged on the assumption that a healthy younger person has nothing to fear, the only reason to continue limiting ourselves was to care for others.

Now it's clear that Covid hurts even healthy and young, even when symptoms are mild. Not just hurts - it hits the most important asset of many on this forum, our intelligence. It literally makes us dumber.

It may be too late now, of course. The horse is already out of the barn. But I wonder if support for continued containment efforts would have been higher if young, healthy, and smart knew that they were a risk group, too.

I know the 7 points is described as average, so some people have a greater deficit, but really 7 points is not even statistically significant.  The standard deviation for IQ is 15 points, and even someone starting with a solid 100 likely wouldn't notice any difference at all in their daily lives with a loss of 7 points, or probably even with a loss of 15.  The higher the starting IQ, the less of a difference it would make.  Plus the study was in regard to people on ventilators, which aren't very likely to be the young and not all that many.  Covid is not going to cause a widespread plummeting of IQ.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #559 on: January 12, 2022, 11:53:17 AM »
I'm wondering if the Omicron variant will prove to be the catalyst that transitions us from pandemic to endemic. 

What's the technical difference between the two? Is it mostly a state of mind at this point? It's obvious COVID is here to stay in some form. This omicron variant is extremely contagious. Policies that require people to isolate themselves for a week or two after a close contact with a COVID carrier just seem super untenable at this point; nobody's going to be left to work in a lot of places that really need workers.

Due to it being so contagious, it has been predicted that the majority of people will be infected with Omicron worldwide. For example, I have seen articles forecasting 80% or more of Florida will have been infected with some variation of covid by the end of the omicron surge.  Combine this with vaccinations, we get closer to herd immunity.  Furthermore, breakthrough infections likely increases protection as well.  Combine this with the fact that many are already over it and not really following guidelines anyway, the CDC is likely realizing that their influence is diminishing day-by-day.  As we continue to learn  how to better treat the virus, get testing more readily available and more people have increased immunity, we are that much closer to living with the virus.  Of course, some lethal variant could develop, but I rather take the optimistic view.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 12:34:43 PM by bmjohnson35 »

HPstache

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #560 on: January 12, 2022, 11:57:59 AM »
Stealing from @GuitarStv in another topic:
Quote
"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326). Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext

They're also saying something like a 7 point average drop in IQ if you were placed on a ventilator.  Alarming.

With this in mind, I wonder how it changes attitudes on living with Covid now. A lot of "getting back to normal" hinged on the assumption that a healthy younger person has nothing to fear, the only reason to continue limiting ourselves was to care for others.

Now it's clear that Covid hurts even healthy and young, even when symptoms are mild. Not just hurts - it hits the most important asset of many on this forum, our intelligence. It literally makes us dumber.

It may be too late now, of course. The horse is already out of the barn. But I wonder if support for continued containment efforts would have been higher if young, healthy, and smart knew that they were a risk group, too.

I know the 7 points is described as average, so some people have a greater deficit, but really 7 points is not even statistically significant.  The standard deviation for IQ is 15 points, and even someone starting with a solid 100 likely wouldn't notice any difference at all in their daily lives with a loss of 7 points, or probably even with a loss of 15.  The higher the starting IQ, the less of a difference it would make.  Plus the study was in regard to people on ventilators, which aren't very likely to be the young and not all that many.  Covid is not going to cause a widespread plummeting of IQ.

Too late! /joke

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #561 on: January 12, 2022, 12:06:45 PM »
I'm wondering if the Omicron variant will prove to be the catalyst that transitions us from pandemic to endemic. 

What's the technical difference between the two? Is it mostly a state of mind at this point? It's obvious COVID is here to stay in some form. This omicron variant is extremely contagious. Policies that require people to isolate themselves for a week or two after a close contact with a COVID carrier just seem super untenable at this point; nobody's going to be left to work in a lot of places that really need workers.

Due to its so contagious, it has been predicted that the majority of people will be infected with Omicron worldwide. For example, I have seen articles forecasting 80% or more of Florida will have been infected with some variation of covid by the end of the omicron surge.  Combine this with vaccinations, we get closer to herd immunity.  Furthermore, breakthrough infections likely increases protection as well.  Combine this with the fact that many are already over it and not really following guidelines anyway, the CDC is likely realizing that their influence is diminishing day-by-day.  As we continue to learn  how to better treat the virus, get testing more readily available and more people have increased immunity, we are that much closer to living with the virus.  Of course, some lethal variant could develop, but I rather take the optimistic view.

It seems like it's getting everyone I know, even the people that have been the most careful throughout the entire pandemic. My brother-in-law was diagnosed with Leukemia last year and because of treatment, etc. hasn't been able to get vaccinated. He's been extremely careful to the point where most people at Christmas tested before they came and the unvaccinated weren't allowed to come to protect him. He just tested positive and also has pneumonia. My dad has been extremely careful because he is on immunosuppressant drugs because of a prior kidney transplant. So careful that when he found out a co-worker of his wife tested positive they completely isolated from each other and wore masks in the house. She never tested positives or had symptoms, but he just tested positive.

It seems to me that unless you are living under a rock for the next month it's going to be almost impossible not to catch it. The number of people I know that haven't gotten it are dwindling by the day. Every day I hear about 2-3 people that I know that have tested positive. Before the beginning of December I think I knew less than 10 people that had gotten Covid during the entire pandemic. Now that number is 30+.

jrhampt

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #562 on: January 12, 2022, 12:10:10 PM »
My parents were not hospitalized with covid back in September, although they really should have been.  But I was shocked and appalled at the extent of the cognitive dysfunction I observed in them, the worst of which lasted around 3 months.  To call it "brain fog" is a vast understatement - that's the term that we hear thrown around a lot and the reality is absolutely shocking.  They were barely able to function independently.  They couldn't figure out how to use their phones or their bank cards, for instance.  And that's not even counting the physical impacts, which continue to linger although most have slowly improved.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #563 on: January 12, 2022, 12:19:46 PM »
RE decreased cognitive function: If I'm reading the study right, they indicate that it may not be lasting. It definitely seems to align with the severity of the disease though, so as symptoms and treatment got more severe, so did cognitive losses. With those two caveats, I'm not sure many people's actions would've changed much. Young, healthy people are still less likely to be affected negatively than other demographics.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #564 on: January 12, 2022, 03:41:07 PM »
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.

Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone?  It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten.  And the Pfizer trials aren't going well.  As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.

Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/

nereo

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #565 on: January 12, 2022, 04:38:42 PM »
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.

Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone?  It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten.  And the Pfizer trials aren't going well.  As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.

Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/

The seasonal flu is not infecting 100k people per day, and in the past localized outbreaks of influenza have triggered school closures and similar isolation measures.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 04:53:22 PM by nereo »

PDXTabs

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #566 on: January 12, 2022, 04:45:33 PM »
The seasonal flu is not infecting 100k people per day, and in the past localized outbreaks have triggered school closures and similar isolation measures.

Yes, I don't think that it is incorrect to say that the current surge is unprecedented. At least in my county we have an order of magnitude more infections now then we ever have in the past. I'm willing to be moderate on the whole thing but during a surge is exactly when you might want stricter than usual measures.

GuitarStv

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #567 on: January 12, 2022, 04:55:08 PM »
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.

Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone?  It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten.  And the Pfizer trials aren't going well.  As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.

Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/

The seasonal flu is not infecting 100k people per day, and in the past localized outbreaks of influenza have triggered school closures and similar isolation measures.

That's why Ontario is sending kids back to school next week.  Concern that the record high numbers of hospitalizations and emergency room numbers might have a chance to wane.

Gin1984

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #568 on: January 12, 2022, 07:30:52 PM »
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.

Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone?  It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten.  And the Pfizer trials aren't going well.  As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.

Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/
Sars-CoV2 has been found in people's brain, it effects your neurons.  You are ignoring the long term damage to the central nervous system.  As a neuroscientist I can tell you that your bolded statement is false.  We do not know the extent of the neuronal damage, but we know there is damage.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2022, 08:37:13 AM by Gin1984 »

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #569 on: January 12, 2022, 07:34:12 PM »
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.

Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone?  It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten.  And the Pfizer trials aren't going well.  As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.

Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/

The seasonal flu is not infecting 100k people per day, and in the past localized outbreaks of influenza have triggered school closures and similar isolation measures.

That's why Ontario is sending kids back to school next week.  Concern that the record high numbers of hospitalizations and emergency room numbers might have a chance to wane.

The thing is, when there's an insane number of cases (in my area waste water testing shows 10X the prior *height* of the pandemic, not even the pandemic average!) even low chances of something happening mean a huge number of kids hospitalized.  I read about pediatric hospitals filling up.  (Also - are we not supposed to care about kids with comorbidities?  We only care about healthy kids?)  And people don't care enough to do anything to protect the kids such as impose mask mandates, limit gatherings, require vaccinations, until either the surge subsides or they too can be vaccinated.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #570 on: January 12, 2022, 07:49:30 PM »
As others in this thread have stated, above, short of complete isolation, which we already know is not good for children, there's little that can be done to prevent getting infected by Omicron. Read the posts above describing people who are doing everything humanly possible to try to not get covid - including wearing masks around, all day long, in their own houses - and, yet, they're still getting sick. If your kids have significant comorbidities that put them at risk for bad outcomes from covid, you need to completely isolate them from any other human beings, or else, you just need to accept the fact that they're going to end up getting covid, eventually. Healthy kids are more at risk driving in a car from home to a vaccination site than just letting them develop immunity by getting infected and recovering naturally.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #571 on: January 12, 2022, 07:57:16 PM »
I do think it's time for the majority of us to move on. Get vaxxed and keep moving.

Can we please wait on calls to move on until there is a damn vaccine for everyone?  It seems like unless people have young kids this point keeps getting forgotten.  And the Pfizer trials aren't going well.  As a society we've chosen to let kids take the hits rather for adults not vaccinating.

Probably because the risk to those young kids is so small. For children, the seasonal flu is just as dangerous. Even then, the only children at real risk are those with other comorbidities. For an otherwise healthy child, the risk is practically zero. We've got six kids and the five oldest have been in school in person since fall of 2020. A few colds here and there but nothing more than some runny noses and coughing for a couple of days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8264261/

The seasonal flu is not infecting 100k people per day, and in the past localized outbreaks of influenza have triggered school closures and similar isolation measures.

And let us not forget that children as young as six months are eligible for seasonal flu vaccines.  But again, nothing for kids under 5 yet for COVID. 

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Shane

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #573 on: January 12, 2022, 08:45:23 PM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/i-want-my-life-back-fear-covid/621214/

An interesting opinion piece

That was good.

It may have been you who posted it in this thread or maybe another. If so, sorry. But, this discussion on Covid was pretty good. It's pretty long and already 2 weeks old, but Peter Attia and his two guests are all MDs, who seem pretty smart. I liked their nuanced take on covid.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #574 on: January 12, 2022, 09:08:53 PM »
And let us not forget that children as young as six months are eligible for seasonal flu vaccines.  But again, nothing for kids under 5 yet for COVID.

But it wasn't recommended for them until 2002/2010. How did I make it through school?

But I do agree that the current surge is unprecedented and warrants special caution.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 09:10:32 PM by PDXTabs »

Shane

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #575 on: January 13, 2022, 06:46:46 AM »
In 2016 and, then, again in 2018, I got the flu really bad. Since then, I've started getting the yearly flu shot. Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #576 on: January 13, 2022, 07:30:52 AM »
And let us not forget that children as young as six months are eligible for seasonal flu vaccines.  But again, nothing for kids under 5 yet for COVID.

But it wasn't recommended for them until 2002/2010. How did I make it through school?

But I do agree that the current surge is unprecedented and warrants special caution.

I always hate these anecdotal [ETA: survivorship] arguments. I'm sure there's a fallacy name for it. The people who died from not wearing a car seat belt aren't around to post saying it's a bad idea to skip the car seats.  The people who died from the flu aren't around to post how beneficial a vaccine would have been.

FWIW, I get a flu shot every year as do my kids, and I did this before COVID.   
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 09:22:48 AM by Captain FIRE »

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #577 on: January 13, 2022, 07:39:07 AM »
In 2016 and, then, again in 2018, I got the flu really bad. Since then, I've started getting the yearly flu shot. Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.

And yet, many people didn't survive the flu or became seriously ill with adverse sequelae that placed burdens on individuals, societies, and economies (as we're starting to see with long COVID), and the annual morbidity and mortality attributed to flu was sufficient to drive the research, development, and testing of a vaccine and a push for mass vaccination. Ditto for measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, pertussis, rabies, polio, smallpox, HPV, Varicella (chickenpox/shingles), and hepatitis B virus. Your point?


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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #579 on: January 13, 2022, 07:50:21 AM »
As others in this thread have stated, above, short of complete isolation, which we already know is not good for children, there's little that can be done to prevent getting infected by Omicron. Read the posts above describing people who are doing everything humanly possible to try to not get covid - including wearing masks around, all day long, in their own houses - and, yet, they're still getting sick. If your kids have significant comorbidities that put them at risk for bad outcomes from covid, you need to completely isolate them from any other human beings, or else, you just need to accept the fact that they're going to end up getting covid, eventually. Healthy kids are more at risk driving in a car from home to a vaccination site than just letting them develop immunity by getting infected and recovering naturally.

Safety is a team sport. You cannot be safe if you alone take measures to stay safe.

At this point the horse has already left the barn, and even the best collective measures are probably too late - except trying to flatten the curve somewhat maybe. But it wasn't inevitable. We didn't have to be here, and we got here because we didn't take enough society-wide protective measures before. I, for one, would rather face omicron like Australia faces it now, with healthcare workers not worn down by two years of unbearable load, and without 800,000 of our fellow citizens already dead. And certainly without the entrenched anti-vax, anti-mask movement backed by one of the only two major parties.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #580 on: January 13, 2022, 07:54:03 AM »
Somehow, though, I managed to make it through the first 50 years of my life, without ever getting a single flu shot.

Siri, what is survivorship bias?

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #581 on: January 13, 2022, 08:18:17 AM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/i-want-my-life-back-fear-covid/621214/

An interesting opinion piece

That was good.

It may have been you who posted it in this thread or maybe another. If so, sorry. But, this discussion on Covid was pretty good. It's pretty long and already 2 weeks old, but Peter Attia and his two guests are all MDs, who seem pretty smart. I liked their nuanced take on covid.

I listened to a good bit of this, but they lost me when among other things they started talking about the harm of "inflicting" masking on the population.  I mean, come on.  We're in a giant surge and it doesn't kill anyone to wear a mask.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #582 on: January 13, 2022, 08:25:44 AM »
I think there are just some people that are more prone to get sick from respiratory viruses than others. I have a friend and every time I talk to him either him, his wife or his kid are sick. On the other hand I've been sick 3 times since I was ~12. I don't remember being a sick kid before then, though, just don't have vivid memories of being sick, like I do after. I got the flu when I was in 6th grade because I remember I had to skip our family Thanksgiving. Then the summer of my junior year I got something that resembled mono, it pissed me off because I had to test out my lifts for varsity football during that time and I had no energy or strength. Then about 10 years ago we traveled down to Florida for a friends wedding and I got basically no sleep with the wedding and the driving through the night, etc. that when I got back I had a pretty bad 24 hour bug. Other than that outside of occasional sniffles, which don't hinder my ability to do anything I've gotten nothing. So, 3 times in about 27 years. I also never got the flu shot, I figured if it ain't broke don't fix it, but I actually did get it this year, just to be a good citizen. My best guess is it's a combination of exercise, protein intake, and sleep, but that's literally just a guess.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 08:32:36 AM by mizzourah2006 »

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #583 on: January 13, 2022, 08:48:55 AM »
protein intake

Exercise and sleep are important to your immune system.  I've never seen any research indicating that high protein intake (beyond the very low RDAs) is of benefit though.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #584 on: January 13, 2022, 09:14:21 AM »
protein intake

Exercise and sleep are important to your immune system.  I've never seen any research indicating that high protein intake (beyond the very low RDAs) is of benefit though.

I didn't mean to imply "high protein" I was thinking more 0.5-1 gram per pound of bodyweight. I'd honestly believe many people are closer to 30-50g of quality protein per day in their daily diets. I try to get closer to 100-150 and usually have at least one high quality protein shake. It might not matter, it might just be correlated with higher quality diets.

I've seen stuff like this:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2105184/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17403271/

but to your point I don't know what "deficiency" actually means.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #585 on: January 13, 2022, 09:19:54 AM »
I think there are just some people that are more prone to get sick from respiratory viruses than others. I have a friend and every time I talk to him either him, his wife or his kid are sick. On the other hand I've been sick 3 times since I was ~12. I don't remember being a sick kid before then, though, just don't have vivid memories of being sick, like I do after. I got the flu when I was in 6th grade because I remember I had to skip our family Thanksgiving. Then the summer of my junior year I got something that resembled mono, it pissed me off because I had to test out my lifts for varsity football during that time and I had no energy or strength. Then about 10 years ago we traveled down to Florida for a friends wedding and I got basically no sleep with the wedding and the driving through the night, etc. that when I got back I had a pretty bad 24 hour bug. Other than that outside of occasional sniffles, which don't hinder my ability to do anything I've gotten nothing. So, 3 times in about 27 years. I also never got the flu shot, I figured if it ain't broke don't fix it, but I actually did get it this year, just to be a good citizen. My best guess is it's a combination of exercise, protein intake, and sleep, but that's literally just a guess.

How often do your kids get sick?

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #586 on: January 13, 2022, 09:23:41 AM »
I think there are just some people that are more prone to get sick from respiratory viruses than others. I have a friend and every time I talk to him either him, his wife or his kid are sick. On the other hand I've been sick 3 times since I was ~12. I don't remember being a sick kid before then, though, just don't have vivid memories of being sick, like I do after. I got the flu when I was in 6th grade because I remember I had to skip our family Thanksgiving. Then the summer of my junior year I got something that resembled mono, it pissed me off because I had to test out my lifts for varsity football during that time and I had no energy or strength. Then about 10 years ago we traveled down to Florida for a friends wedding and I got basically no sleep with the wedding and the driving through the night, etc. that when I got back I had a pretty bad 24 hour bug. Other than that outside of occasional sniffles, which don't hinder my ability to do anything I've gotten nothing. So, 3 times in about 27 years. I also never got the flu shot, I figured if it ain't broke don't fix it, but I actually did get it this year, just to be a good citizen. My best guess is it's a combination of exercise, protein intake, and sleep, but that's literally just a guess.

How often do your kids get sick?

...and how old are they?

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #587 on: January 13, 2022, 09:27:45 AM »
I think there are just some people that are more prone to get sick from respiratory viruses than others. I have a friend and every time I talk to him either him, his wife or his kid are sick. On the other hand I've been sick 3 times since I was ~12. I don't remember being a sick kid before then, though, just don't have vivid memories of being sick, like I do after. I got the flu when I was in 6th grade because I remember I had to skip our family Thanksgiving. Then the summer of my junior year I got something that resembled mono, it pissed me off because I had to test out my lifts for varsity football during that time and I had no energy or strength. Then about 10 years ago we traveled down to Florida for a friends wedding and I got basically no sleep with the wedding and the driving through the night, etc. that when I got back I had a pretty bad 24 hour bug. Other than that outside of occasional sniffles, which don't hinder my ability to do anything I've gotten nothing. So, 3 times in about 27 years. I also never got the flu shot, I figured if it ain't broke don't fix it, but I actually did get it this year, just to be a good citizen. My best guess is it's a combination of exercise, protein intake, and sleep, but that's literally just a guess.

How often do your kids get sick?

Not very often. Maybe once or so a year. My daughter just had like a 12 hour stomach bug about 3 weeks ago. She also got sick in March of 2020. We thought it was Covid because she tested negative for the flu and strep, but they wouldn't test her. My son gets runny noses every so often, but not to the point where he doesn't "feel well".

She just turned 6 and he just turned 4. Both have always gone to daycare/preschool/kindergarten, even throughout the pandemic.

PDXTabs

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #588 on: January 13, 2022, 09:37:52 AM »
I always hate these anecdotal [ETA: survivorship] arguments. I'm sure there's a fallacy name for it. The people who died from not wearing a car seat belt aren't around to post saying it's a bad idea to skip the car seats.  The people who died from the flu aren't around to post how beneficial a vaccine would have been.

I'm not conceived that historical comparisons are survivorship bias. I'm not saying "I didn't have access to an FDA approved flu shot as a kid therefore I don't give the FDA approved flu shot to my kids today." I'm saying "no one had access to it and life went on" (but I was snarky about it, sorry about that).

FWIW, I get a flu shot every year as do my kids, and I did this before COVID.   

I've had every year since 2009. When I live with my kids I make sure to get it for them. When they live with their mom sometimes it doesn't happen. But I don't get upset about it, they have all of the vaccines mandated by their school.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 09:44:09 AM by PDXTabs »

nereo

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #589 on: January 13, 2022, 09:52:28 AM »
I always hate these anecdotal [ETA: survivorship] arguments. I'm sure there's a fallacy name for it. The people who died from not wearing a car seat belt aren't around to post saying it's a bad idea to skip the car seats.  The people who died from the flu aren't around to post how beneficial a vaccine would have been.

I'm not conceived that historical comparisons are survivorship bias. I'm not saying "I didn't have access to an FDA approved flu shot as a kid therefore I don't give the FDA approved flu shot to my kids today." I'm saying "no one had access to it and life went on" (but I was snarky about it, sorry about that).


To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.

GuitarStv

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #590 on: January 13, 2022, 09:53:10 AM »
I always hate these anecdotal [ETA: survivorship] arguments. I'm sure there's a fallacy name for it. The people who died from not wearing a car seat belt aren't around to post saying it's a bad idea to skip the car seats.  The people who died from the flu aren't around to post how beneficial a vaccine would have been.

I'm not conceived that historical comparisons are survivorship bias. I'm not saying "I didn't have access to an FDA approved flu shot as a kid therefore I don't give the FDA approved flu shot to my kids today." I'm saying "no one had access to it and life went on" (but I was snarky about it, sorry about that).

That's textbook survivorship bias though.

"We didn't have seatbelts when I was a kid and everyone got lots of second hand smoke.  I survived!"  - Yeah, but you don't have the voices of all those who died countering the narrative.  It doesn't mean that smoking and no seatbelts is safe.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #591 on: January 13, 2022, 10:01:46 AM »
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.

Which I literally agreed with you in this thread. But to say that once SARS-CoV-2 becomes endemic we should be terrified because there isn't an FDA approved vaccine for the 6m-5y crowd is not a stance I am willing to take if the childhood mortality remains very low.

nereo

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #592 on: January 13, 2022, 10:04:54 AM »
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.

Which I literally agreed with you in this thread. But to say that once SARS-CoV-2 becomes endemic we should be terrified because there isn't an FDA approved vaccine for the 6m-5y crowd is not a stance I am willing to take if the childhood mortality remains very low.

what makes you think that I'm advocating for this?

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #593 on: January 13, 2022, 10:06:37 AM »
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.

Which I literally agreed with you in this thread. But to say that once SARS-CoV-2 becomes endemic we should be terrified because there isn't an FDA approved vaccine for the 6m-5y crowd is not a stance I am willing to take if the childhood mortality remains very low.

To confirm I understand you, you only care if children die, but not if they have life long health consequences from long-COVID, the yet undetermined decrease in IQ, the potential increase in diabetes, etc.?

I posted it above.  I'm not asking you to agree with it, but please consider reading this so you at least understand where [ETA: many] parents of under 5 are at:
https://slate.com/technology/2022/01/kids-under-5-vaccine-parents.html?fbclid=IwAR34C-cN4_5xfegwiJhgDQWtEVg2a5ELj8cJjqqmR85A2ckv_MNb7Jvb5yY
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 01:34:00 PM by Captain FIRE »

PDXTabs

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #594 on: January 13, 2022, 10:27:23 AM »
To confirm I understand you, you only care if children die, but not if they have life long health consequences from long-COVID, the yet undetermined decrease in IQ, the potential increase in diabetes, etc.?

I posted it above.  I'm not asking you to agree with it, but please consider reading this so you at least understand where parents of under 5 are at:
https://slate.com/technology/2022/01/kids-under-5-vaccine-parents.html

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that people are irrational about risks and that as a UK citizen and a card carrying member of the SNP I have faith in the Scottish government in general and NHS Scotland in particular to set reasonable guidelines for the 0-5 crowd. In that sense, I trust experts. But in particular I trust the (very liberal by US standards) Scottish government to listen to experts more than I trust the Biden administration for numerous reasons that I don't need to go into here.

But to get back to people being irrational about risks I happened to read this last night:

Those who have studied how humans respond to risk know that people often have a quite distorted view of what to fear: our fears depend less on the objective number (a one-in-a-hundred chance versus a one-in-a-million chance) than on other things. We feel less at risk when an activity is voluntary (such as driving or skiing) than when imposed on us (the air we breathe), when we are in control (like at the wheel of a car) rather than not (in the passenger seat or in a plane), when those activities are familiar (as when driving or working with heavy machinery at our jobs) than when novel (terror attacks or swine flu), or when we see the danger source as benevolent (like the Ford Motor Company or a surgeon) rather than neutral (a hurricane), or evil (a criminal).

That was published in Carjacked by Catherine Lutz and Anne Lutz Fernandez with an attribution footnote to Risk and Everyday Life by John Tulloch and Deborah Lupton.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 10:30:36 AM by PDXTabs »

StashingAway

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #595 on: January 13, 2022, 11:43:14 AM »
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.

Which I literally agreed with you in this thread. But to say that once SARS-CoV-2 becomes endemic we should be terrified because there isn't an FDA approved vaccine for the 6m-5y crowd is not a stance I am willing to take if the childhood mortality remains very low.

To confirm I understand you, you only care if children die, but not if they have life long health consequences from long-COVID, the yet undetermined decrease in IQ, the potential increase in diabetes, etc.?

I posted it above.  I'm not asking you to agree with it, but please consider reading this so you at least understand where parents of under 5 are at:
https://slate.com/technology/2022/01/kids-under-5-vaccine-parents.html?fbclid=IwAR34C-cN4_5xfegwiJhgDQWtEVg2a5ELj8cJjqqmR85A2ckv_MNb7Jvb5yY

Speak for yourself. I have two kids under 5 and am not at all influenced by that piece of work. The first 6 paragraphs are a straight up appeal to emotion. It sounds like the folks in our neighborhood facebook group that were telling everyone not to go outside the week lockdowns started because it gets on your shoes.

Jon Bon

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #596 on: January 13, 2022, 11:48:58 AM »
The risk of death to children is very low. Lower than riding in a car, which most of them do nearly every day.

Source:CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 12:15:31 PM by Jon Bon »

seattlecyclone

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #597 on: January 13, 2022, 11:57:20 AM »
To me, it's as simple as: our current Covid pandemic is not particularly comparable to the seasonal flu.

Which I literally agreed with you in this thread. But to say that once SARS-CoV-2 becomes endemic we should be terrified because there isn't an FDA approved vaccine for the 6m-5y crowd is not a stance I am willing to take if the childhood mortality remains very low.

To confirm I understand you, you only care if children die, but not if they have life long health consequences from long-COVID, the yet undetermined decrease in IQ, the potential increase in diabetes, etc.?

I posted it above.  I'm not asking you to agree with it, but please consider reading this so you at least understand where parents of under 5 are at:
https://slate.com/technology/2022/01/kids-under-5-vaccine-parents.html?fbclid=IwAR34C-cN4_5xfegwiJhgDQWtEVg2a5ELj8cJjqqmR85A2ckv_MNb7Jvb5yY

I have a three-year-old. I'm frustrated that they seem to be dragging their feet on the vaccine trials. We send him to a part-time preschool that has what sounds like pretty typical isolation requirements for unvaccinated individuals (i.e. all the kids in the school except for the oldest two pre-K students). Ride on an airplane or otherwise travel over state lines? Stay away for ten days. Get exposed to a known/suspected COVID-positive individual? Stay away for ten days. Develop any symptoms that could possibly be COVID? Stay away at least until you get a negative PCR test result. These guidelines seem to be coming from an assumption that these isolation requirements are reasonably likely to be effective at preventing an outbreak, and that preventing an outbreak is worth the downsides of so much time away from the school. I definitely have doubts on the former assumption given how contagious omicron is, and the latter assumption just gets back into the whole debate we've been having in the rest of the thread regarding finding the right balance between personal inconvenience against the potential for spreading disease.

I was in the last generation of kids to grow up before the chickenpox vaccine was widely adopted in the US. I had the disease when I was a preschooler myself. Parents would throw chickenpox parties to intentionally expose their children, because the disease is milder at younger ages and it was thought to be pretty inevitable to get it eventually so you might as well get it over with. I'm so glad we have a vaccine now so we don't have to deal with chickenpox anymore, and I also see some parallels here to the current COVID situation. We have a disease that is usually (but of course not always!) mild in children, seems increasingly inevitable that they will catch it eventually, and no available vaccine for them. Rather than leaning into this inevitability like we did with chickenpox parties, we're hoping that if we just inconvenience enough parents with long isolation periods for however long it takes to get the vaccine approved, that many kids will be spared the experience. Maybe that's true! I'm growing more doubtful of that by the day.

Cranky

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #598 on: January 13, 2022, 12:31:14 PM »
I always wonder if people who say “Oh, it’s just the flu!” ever really had the flu. I vividly remember the winter when I and my 3 kids had influenza A. We were in bed for a week, and it wasn’t the fun kind of sick where you watch tv, it was the kind where you take some me Tylenol and drink some juice and go back to sleep. One of the kids was exhausted for weeks.

Frankly, right now I’m missing the “normal” we had in September.

Kris

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #599 on: January 13, 2022, 12:34:52 PM »
I always wonder if people who say “Oh, it’s just the flu!” ever really had the flu. I vividly remember the winter when I and my 3 kids had influenza A. We were in bed for a week, and it wasn’t the fun kind of sick where you watch tv, it was the kind where you take some me Tylenol and drink some juice and go back to sleep. One of the kids was exhausted for weeks.

Frankly, right now I’m missing the “normal” we had in September.

Yeah, I think a lot of people think a bad cold with a fever is the flu.

If you have really had the flu, you would know it 100% without a doubt.