Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"

[PDXTabs]

Omicron scares me due to its transmissibility, but thankfully early data indicates its slightly less deadly than Delta.

I saw this today. That states  "markedly lower risk of hospitalization... The University of Edinburgh study, drawing on the health records of 5.4 million people in Scotland, found the risk of hospitalization with Covid-19 was two-thirds lower with Omicron than with Delta." Of course the catch being that if three times as many people get it then it's a wash.

[K_in_the_kitchen]

I'm in an at-risk age group (no longer 63), I have so-so lungs as a result of growing up with smokers and working in bad air-quality cities, and have already had bronchitis and pneumonia (many years ago) and mild adult-onset asthma,  so I really don't want to risk lung damage.  Or who knows what kind of long covid omicron will produce?

My last cold (March of 2020) was really nasty.  Even if I caught omicron and it was "just a bad cold", my bad colds are bad.

I basically don't bother to mention all this on the forums, but really when I do my personal risk assessment I have to take everything in my past health history into consideration.  Plus if I visit DD I am also visiting a 6 month old baby.  So what may look low risk to you is being evaluated with more factors than you are seeing.  I'm sure that is true for many of us on here.

I'm in a similar place.  I grew up with smoking in the home (and all the relatives homes), and for the first 6 years with an interstate directly behind the backyard fence.  When we moved our new house was 600 feet from another major interstate.  I've always lived in a high pollution area -- my county averages 50 "good" air quality days per year.  I've had asthma since I was an infant.  Add in childhood poverty and poor nutrition.

A bad cold is never "just" a bad cold for me -- I almost always end up with bronchitis and spend a couple of months recovering from it.  Sometimes it's pneumonia instead.

[RetiredAt63]

I'm in an at-risk age group (no longer 63), I have so-so lungs as a result of growing up with smokers and working in bad air-quality cities, and have already had bronchitis and pneumonia (many years ago) and mild adult-onset asthma,  so I really don't want to risk lung damage.  Or who knows what kind of long covid omicron will produce?

My last cold (March of 2020) was really nasty.  Even if I caught omicron and it was "just a bad cold", my bad colds are bad.

I basically don't bother to mention all this on the forums, but really when I do my personal risk assessment I have to take everything in my past health history into consideration.  Plus if I visit DD I am also visiting a 6 month old baby.  So what may look low risk to you is being evaluated with more factors than you are seeing.  I'm sure that is true for many of us on here.

I'm in a similar place.  I grew up with smoking in the home (and all the relatives homes), and for the first 6 years with an interstate directly behind the backyard fence.  When we moved our new house was 600 feet from another major interstate.  I've always lived in a high pollution area -- my county averages 50 "good" air quality days per year.  I've had asthma since I was an infant.  Add in childhood poverty and poor nutrition.

A bad cold is never "just" a bad cold for me -- I almost always end up with bronchitis and spend a couple of months recovering from it.  Sometimes it's pneumonia instead.

Add the thing is, from the outside, we "look healthy".  On the inside, we are doing our best to stay healthy.  And my accessible parking permit is for my bad knees, and they don't show either.

[Villanelle]

Post after post, I don't know why I continue to be amazed.  But whether this is because it's just not how some people think about the world, or because they don't want to see it, the fact that some people think of the risk to others, not just to themselves, seems to be willfully ignored.

As a 40-something with no underlying health issues other than a bit of extra weight (but not obese), yes, I'd probably be fine if I got Covid, with my 3 doses of Moderna.  But I care about my neighbors and my friends and the people who work at the grocery story and the friend of a friend of a friend of those people. I'll likely be fine, but it's also very likely that not all of those people would be fine.  That's why I'm still masking and I'm staying home more and I don't want to go to large gatherings--especially with unvaxxed folks.  Because I don't want to contribute to the exponential thread of this thing that certainly will kill and badly harm others, and will likely inundate our health care system so that even those without Covid have worse medical outcomes.

"You are vaxxed so you'll be fine" is such a selfish, short-sighted take on all this. I think about people other than myself, and thankfully, many others do as well. 

[Britan]

This is what baffles me about “why cancel plans to see family just because they aren’t vaccinated? It’s not like YOULL get sick or die.” Well, just because I think they’re factually wrong doesn’t mean I hate them and want them to get long COVID, be hospitalized, or die? There was so much pushback from the anti-vax in my huge extended family when some of the vaccinated did not want to go to the 100+ person family reunion. Like, Uncle Joe, I know that you’re incorrect and I also have personal distain for your politics but I still couldn’t forgive myself if I brought asymptomatic COVID and it killed you.

[Paper Chaser]

Post after post, I don't know why I continue to be amazed.  But whether this is because it's just not how some people think about the world, or because they don't want to see it, the fact that some people think of the risk to others, not just to themselves, seems to be willfully ignored.

As a 40-something with no underlying health issues other than a bit of extra weight (but not obese), yes, I'd probably be fine if I got Covid, with my 3 doses of Moderna.  But I care about my neighbors and my friends and the people who work at the grocery story and the friend of a friend of a friend of those people. I'll likely be fine, but it's also very likely that not all of those people would be fine.  That's why I'm still masking and I'm staying home more and I don't want to go to large gatherings--especially with unvaxxed folks.  Because I don't want to contribute to the exponential thread of this thing that certainly will kill and badly harm others, and will likely inundate our health care system so that even those without Covid have worse medical outcomes.

"You are vaxxed so you'll be fine" is such a selfish, short-sighted take on all this. I think about people other than myself, and thankfully, many others do as well.

"You are vaxxed so you'll be fine" isn't much different to me than saying "Get vaxxed so we can all be fine" which has pretty much been the messaging since before vaccines were available. Getting the vaccine has selfish aspects too. I'm vaxxed because it reduces my personal risk. People have some responsibility for their own risk of exposure. Those who are most concerned about contracting an illness (for any reason at all), need to limit all contact with other people regardless of their own vaccination status or the vax status of the people they're around. Those who are least concerned about the risk are living lives as normal, unvaxxed. There are a whole lot of people on the spectrum in between those two extremes.

I've taken the steps that I feel are prudent so that I'm comfortable with the risk of going out in public. My assumption is that everybody else going out in public is also accepting of any risk simply by being there, and has taken whatever steps they feel are appropriate for themselves. If they're unvaxxed and get sick, that's a consequence of their own choices. If they're vaxxed but not masking or keeping distance and they get sick, that's a consequence of their own choices.

Circle of control applies here. Control what you can, plan for what you cannot, and then accept it. This is a lot like determining a proper asset allocation to me. You need to determine the risk level associated with the available options (hopefully based on data and not just bears predicting the next recession or spreading fear about a virus without factual support), determine your personal risk tolerance, and make choices based on that. I'm assuming that other people are also (selfishly) determining what is best for their specific situations. I cannot realistically control whether a friend of a friend of a friend loses a ton of money in the market after betting huge on crypto. They're responsible for knowing and accepting the risks involved, and they have to deal with any consequences from their choices. By that same token, I cannot completely eliminate the small possibility of playing a role in a friend of a friend of a friend getting sick without removing myself from society. And if that person is interacting with others in society, they're presumably accepting of some level of risk too. They're responsible for knowing and accepting the risks involved, and they have to deal with any consequences from their choices.

[GodlessCommie]

And if that person is interacting with others in society, they're presumably accepting of some level of risk too. They're responsible for knowing and accepting the risks involved, and they have to deal with any consequences from their choices.

Interacting with people in society is not optional.

[Virtus3]

I continue to be amazed and frustrated by this pandemic; has definitely shown how selfish a large number of people can be.

[Kris]

I continue to be amazed and frustrated by this pandemic; has definitely shown how selfish a large number of people can be.

And (willfully?) ignorant.

[RetiredAt63]

And if that person is interacting with others in society, they're presumably accepting of some level of risk too. They're responsible for knowing and accepting the risks involved, and they have to deal with any consequences from their choices.

Interacting with people in society is not optional.

Yes people in this position are already forced to do all these things. That's not being debated. The debate is why other people decide not to care about improving the odds for anyone else.

And this part of the discussion ignores the fact that if a lot of people require hospitalization for Covid there will be a lot of collateral damage.  All the people who needed to be in hospital for non-Covid reasons have seen available care diminish.  Elective surgeries (knee and hip replacements are elective, so not just trivial things) are put off.  Plus we are in winter, where cars slide on the ice and snow and people fall on the ice, and the ER is busy anyway.  So - basically don't fall, don't have any kind of accident, don't cut yourself or burn yourself in the kitchen, don't have any sudden medical condition, because all the people who aren't thinking of others are taking up the hospital space.  This puts everyone at risk no matter how many Covid precautions they take.

ETA neo von retorch posted this link over in Off Topic- the non-vaxxing GOP thread -  and it is well worth reading in the context of Covid.

https://www.betterleadersbetterschools.com/second-order-thinking/

[Virtus3]

I continue to be amazed and frustrated by this pandemic; has definitely shown how selfish a large number of people can be.

And (willfully?) ignorant.

Absolutely! Although this seemed to be more prevalent pre-COVID as well...

[Paper Chaser]

And if that person is interacting with others in society, they're presumably accepting of some level of risk too. They're responsible for knowing and accepting the risks involved, and they have to deal with any consequences from their choices.

Interacting with people in society is not optional.

Then everybody had better figure out whatever steps they need to take to mitigate their personal risk exposure, which is mostly what this thread has been about -->Learning to live with covid.

Your point is kind of my point too. There is no society without interaction. There is no interaction without risk. Control what you can control, do what you need to do to mitigate risk so that you can be comfortable in society, and deal with whatever comes up. If you want or need to be more cautious, then by all means take those steps.

[Paper Chaser]

I've taken the steps that I feel are prudent so that I'm comfortable with the risk of going out in public. My assumption is that everybody else going out in public is also accepting of any risk simply by being there, and has taken whatever steps they feel are appropriate for themselves. If they're unvaxxed and get sick, that's a consequence of their own choices. If they're vaxxed but not masking or keeping distance and they get sick, that's a consequence of their own choices.

But there's the rub. If they fully expect to utilize the strained resources of the healthcare system then they aren't accepting the risk of getting sick.

I'd contend that the ability to seek treatment should absolutely be considered in one's risk determination. Just like an investment asset allocation, things are fluid and changes may be needed based on external factors. You don't invest the exact same way for your entire life. You don't spend the exact same amount of money every year once you're retired. The risk/reward calculations are something that need constant awareness and flexibility.
If your local healthcare system is in bad shape, then it's probably wise to avoid risky behavior and activities. But again, that risk depends on individual factors (vax status, age, overall health, and the specific risky behavior too).

[GodlessCommie]

Then everybody had better figure out whatever steps they need to take to mitigate their personal risk exposure, which is mostly what this thread has been about -->Learning to live with covid.

Your point is kind of my point too. There is no society without interaction. There is no interaction without risk. Control what you can control, do what you need to do to mitigate risk so that you can be comfortable in society, and deal with whatever comes up. If you want or need to be more cautious, then by all means take those steps.

You keep putting the onus on people who are vulnerable to Covid. Trust me, they are already doing what they can. You avoid even acknowledging it, time after time.

[Paper Chaser]

Then everybody had better figure out whatever steps they need to take to mitigate their personal risk exposure, which is mostly what this thread has been about -->Learning to live with covid.

Your point is kind of my point too. There is no society without interaction. There is no interaction without risk. Control what you can control, do what you need to do to mitigate risk so that you can be comfortable in society, and deal with whatever comes up. If you want or need to be more cautious, then by all means take those steps.

You keep putting the onus on people who are vulnerable to Covid. Trust me, they are already doing what they can. You avoid even acknowledging it, time after time.

Yes, you are more responsible for your own safety than the rest of society is for your safety. If you're lucky, there may be some helpful regulations in place for certain things to increase safety but that's not always the case.

[GodlessCommie]

Just like an investment asset allocation, things are fluid and changes may be needed based on external factors.

Once me buying VTI starts killing my neighbors' parents, I'll consider the analogy perfectly sensible.

Safety is a team sport. You cannot be individually safe. Your illusion of being primarily responsible for your own safety is enabled by massive collective effort and expense. That this effort is invisible to you only speaks to its efficiency. You'd notice it, though, as soon as the machinery started breaking down.

[Paper Chaser]

you are more responsible for your own safety than the rest of society is for your safety

Sure, more responsible. No one argued against this.

But what I hear you saying is that "everyone is solely responsible for themselves, and others shouldn't concern themselves."

Under what conditions are you willing to change your behavior in order to improve the odds that others have decreased risk and/or benefits?

I'm vaccinated. I wear a mask for 10-12hrs per day at work, and any other time that it's required or requested. I stay home if I'm not feeling well and communicate to others that might come into contact with me that I'm not feeling well before that potential contact so they may make their own choices. Outside of that I don't feel much of a need to restrict my behavior for a distant, ambiguous, intangible societal benefit. If I want to eat in a restaurant or go to a sporting event or visit close friends I do it, and accept all risks associated with that. If my local hospital is overcrowded, then I might skip using the chainsaw for awhile or whatever potentially risky behavior I might normally not give a second thought to.

A previous poster gave an example of skipping a family reunion because they didn't want to risk asymptomatic spread of the virus to unvaxxed family. While that's admirable, if I were in that situation and my only concern truly was the health of others, I'd just take a test before hand and as long as the results were negative I'd go to the reunion. The unvaxxed have generally made their choices at this point. If they're not going to show concern for their own safety or take steps to mitigate their risk then why should I restrict myself beyond what I already do?

[RetiredAt63]

Paper chaser, you are starting to remind me of hash brown in your unwillingness to see that choices you think are valid may be valid from your viewpoint, but are real risks from a society viewpoint.  You are certainly a good example of the American rugged individualist thinking, as opposed to the American barn-raising we are all in this together and help each other thinking. 

I'm not going to bother replying to you any more.  I'm too old for this nonsense, I will conserve my energy for more useful endeavours.

[nereo]

Then everybody had better figure out whatever steps they need to take to mitigate their personal risk exposure, which is mostly what this thread has been about -->Learning to live with covid.

Your point is kind of my point too. There is no society without interaction. There is no interaction without risk. Control what you can control, do what you need to do to mitigate risk so that you can be comfortable in society, and deal with whatever comes up. If you want or need to be more cautious, then by all means take those steps.

You keep putting the onus on people who are vulnerable to Covid. Trust me, they are already doing what they can. You avoid even acknowledging it, time after time.

Yes, you are more responsible for your own safety than the rest of society is for your safety. If you're lucky, there may be some helpful regulations in place for certain things to increase safety but that's not always the case.

this does not make any sense to me.  I can think of countless situations where actions are required to protect other people's safety, and not your own. In fact, in the US we seem willing to allow individuals to assume an abnormally high level of risk so long as it doesn't put other people in danger. Legislation often happens not because it impacts your personal safety, but those of bystanders.  As an example, take a look at smoking laws - almost all of them focus on the impacts of second-hand smoke. In other words, impacts to the rest of society, and not personal safety.

[NaN]

Paper chaser, you are starting to remind me of hash brown in your unwillingness to see that choices you think are valid may be valid from your viewpoint, but are real risks from a society viewpoint.  You are certainly a good example of the American rugged individualist thinking, as opposed to the American barn-raising we are all in this together and help each other thinking. 

I'm not going to bother replying to you any more.  I'm too old for this nonsense, I will conserve my energy for more useful endeavours.

That whole forum conversation with hash brown and his comments was terrible. I so like your replies here, @RetiredAt63, but reading @Paper Chaser comments I respectively don't see the comparison with that other situation. I just scanned his comments and don't even think they compare.

On the more relevant side, here is an interesting article: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/omicron-could-potentially-hasten-the-covid-pandemics-end-says-expert.html

Maybe getting back to normal will happen one way or another soon. I hope so.

[Paper Chaser]

Paper chaser, you are starting to remind me of hash brown in your unwillingness to see that choices you think are valid may be valid from your viewpoint, but are real risks from a society viewpoint.  You are certainly a good example of the American rugged individualist thinking, as opposed to the American barn-raising we are all in this together and help each other thinking. 

I'm not going to bother replying to you any more.  I'm too old for this nonsense, I will conserve my energy for more useful endeavours.

First it was "Stay home for the greater good. We're all in this together". Then it was "Wear a mask for the greater good. We're all in this together". Then it was "Get vaccinated for the greater good. We're all in this together". I've done those things, and I'll continue to do them as needed (staying home when feeling sick, wearing a mask when requested, etc). I'm abiding by all local regulations. I've followed the rules and expectations of society throughout this pandemic and will continue to. I'm simply not going above and beyond those rules and expectations. If that's not enough for you then you're free to judge as you see fit I guess.

[RetiredAt63]

Paper chaser, you are starting to remind me of hash brown in your unwillingness to see that choices you think are valid may be valid from your viewpoint, but are real risks from a society viewpoint.  You are certainly a good example of the American rugged individualist thinking, as opposed to the American barn-raising we are all in this together and help each other thinking. 

I'm not going to bother replying to you any more.  I'm too old for this nonsense, I will conserve my energy for more useful endeavours.

First it was "Stay home for the greater good. We're all in this together". Then it was "Wear a mask for the greater good. We're all in this together". Then it was "Get vaccinated for the greater good. We're all in this together". I've done those things, and I'll continue to do them as needed (staying home when feeling sick, wearing a mask when requested, etc). I'm abiding by all local regulations. I've followed the rules and expectations of society throughout this pandemic and will continue to. I'm simply not going above and beyond those rules and expectations. If that's not enough for you then you're free to judge as you see fit I guess.

It's just that you are following the rules without really seeming to see the need for them.  Without seeing that some people are going to be more vulnerable despite all their choices because of other peoples' choices. 

Maybe I am mis-interpreting your posts.  Let's let it rest.

[PDXTabs]

Just like an investment asset allocation, things are fluid and changes may be needed based on external factors.

Once me buying VTI starts killing my neighbors' parents, I'll consider the analogy perfectly sensible.

Are you saying that none of the execs that got bonuses paid in stock used that money to fund pro-Trump PACs that eventually lead to loosened health care regulation, environmental regulation, insurrectionists, or anti-vaxxers? What did Vanguard do with their voting rights for the shares that you helped them buy? I don't think that it is a stretch at all to say that all of us index investors have blood on our hands.

[OtherJen]

As much as we talk about getting back to “normal” (whatever that means), it should be clear that we’re not there yet.

From The NY Times: Over 3,000 Christmas Eve and Christmas Day flights are cancelled globally as Omicron spreads (NY Times, Dec. 24, 2021, updated from 2,000 since I started writing this post)

And a sobering one from my local paper: Michigan hospitals ‘teetering’ under current COVID-19 surge (Dearborn/Dearborn Heights (MI) Press & Guide, Dec. 23, 2021)

[JoJo]

If Omicron hospitalizations are as low as they've been in South Africa & UK, the biggest problem is going to be people out of work for illness and self quarantines.  Businesses will need to temporarily shut their doors, flights and other transportation cancelled, hospital staff will be low, etc. 

[nereo]

If Omicron hospitalizations are as low as they've been in South Africa & UK, the biggest problem is going to be people out of work for illness and self quarantines.  Businesses will need to temporarily shut their doors, flights and other transportation cancelled, hospital staff will be low, etc.

So the “best case” scenario is looking fairly bad.
Curious what makes people assume things in the US will be no worse than what they are experiencing in the UK. We have less of our population fully vaccinated and we certainly are not any healthier to begin with. The UK has been better on a whole at implementing restrictive measures than the US, and doesn’t have a huge subset who fall outside the healthcare system.

[Villanelle]

If Omicron hospitalizations are as low as they've been in South Africa & UK, the biggest problem is going to be people out of work for illness and self quarantines.  Businesses will need to temporarily shut their doors, flights and other transportation cancelled, hospital staff will be low, etc.

Based on what?  My understanding is that while the hospitalization rate per case is lower for O than for D, because the overall number of cases is supposed to me much, much higher, our hospitals are unlikely to experience much of a break, compared to D. Oh, and with hospital staff out for illness, the already short-staffed hospitals will be even short-staffed as they try to wade through the mass of sick bodies landing on their door step. 

That's seems like a pretty big "biggest problem" 

[PDXTabs]

Curious what makes people assume things in the US will be no worse than what they are experiencing in the UK. We have less of our population fully vaccinated and we certainly are not any healthier to begin with. The UK has been better on a whole at implementing restrictive measures than the US, and doesn’t have a huge subset who fall outside the healthcare system.

I think that some people are hopeful because half of the UK got AZ while most of the US got Moderna or Pfizer. The UK has certainly been different that the US in lockdown policy. They had a strict lockdown that got their numbers into a really good place and then opened up the bars before vaccines were available then of course had to reimpose restrictions. I actually thought that sounded like the worst possible thing to do to you population but I didn't live through it as I was here at the time. There is a big fight in England right now about what is to be done.

[PhilB]

Curious what makes people assume things in the US will be no worse than what they are experiencing in the UK. We have less of our population fully vaccinated and we certainly are not any healthier to begin with. The UK has been better on a whole at implementing restrictive measures than the US, and doesn’t have a huge subset who fall outside the healthcare system.

I think that some people are hopeful because half of the UK got AZ while most of the US got Moderna or Pfizer. The UK has certainly been different that the US in lockdown policy. They had a strict lockdown that got their numbers into a really good place and then opened up the bars before vaccines were available then of course had to reimpose restrictions. I actually thought that sounded like the worst possible thing to do to you population but I didn't live through it as I was here at the time. There is a big fight in England right now about what is to be done.

The unlocking in 2020 in the UK was a mess, but the 2021 unlocking was going very well indeed before Omicron came along.  We kept things tight until enough people were vaxxed and then opened up to get to 'living with Covid' in advance of the winter.

Omicron has changed things, but most of the people who had AZ have also had a Pfizer booster which is a combination that gives really good immunity.  The jury is very much out on Omicron.  Cases are growing, but not exponentially.  Almost everyone even vaguely vulnerable is triple vaxxed and many have also had exposure to earlier variants.  If we do have to lock down because the NHS is overwhelmed, my guess is that it's more likely to be because NHS staff with mild cases are isolating than because of a glut of patients, but it's still too early to be sure.

I would be a lot more nervous about the US system coping as you have so many more unprotected people than we do.

[former player]

Curious what makes people assume things in the US will be no worse than what they are experiencing in the UK. We have less of our population fully vaccinated and we certainly are not any healthier to begin with. The UK has been better on a whole at implementing restrictive measures than the US, and doesn’t have a huge subset who fall outside the healthcare system.

I think that some people are hopeful because half of the UK got AZ while most of the US got Moderna or Pfizer. The UK has certainly been different that the US in lockdown policy. They had a strict lockdown that got their numbers into a really good place and then opened up the bars before vaccines were available then of course had to reimpose restrictions. I actually thought that sounded like the worst possible thing to do to you population but I didn't live through it as I was here at the time. There is a big fight in England right now about what is to be done.

The unlocking in 2020 in the UK was a mess, but the 2021 unlocking was going very well indeed before Omicron came along.  We kept things tight until enough people were vaxxed and then opened up to get to 'living with Covid' in advance of the winter.

Omicron has changed things, but most of the people who had AZ have also had a Pfizer booster which is a combination that gives really good immunity.  The jury is very much out on Omicron.  Cases are growing, but not exponentially.  Almost everyone even vaguely vulnerable is triple vaxxed and many have also had exposure to earlier variants.  If we do have to lock down because the NHS is overwhelmed, my guess is that it's more likely to be because NHS staff with mild cases are isolating than because of a glut of patients, but it's still too early to be sure.

I would be a lot more nervous about the US system coping as you have so many more unprotected people than we do.

There is also a thought that AZ is not as good at Pfizer or Moderna at preventing infection (antibodies) but is better at preventing serious illness and death (T-cells), and that this is part of the reason why although our Delta and Omicron infection numbers are both high our death rate (which started out as one of the worst in the world) is steadily trending downwards as against other countries. Plus, as Phil says, a lot of recent effort has gone into boosters: 32 million out of an adult population of 55 million have already been boosted and we are averaging over three quarters of a million boosters every day.

[PDXTabs]

I would be a lot more nervous about the US system coping as you have so many more unprotected people than we do.

Indeed, the US as a whole is not as well protected as the UK 61.7% vs 70.2% total population being fully vaccinated. The UK also has better testing because we've had two consecutive administrations really mess that up. But the USA isn't really one place anymore. Vermont, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, Maine, Guam, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and New York have a higher vaccination rate than the UK. Obviously, they have less to worry about than the states where only half the population is vaccinated. The US also opened up boosters to everyone 16+ before the UK did (actually, the UK still hasn't for 16-17).* Everyone I know is fully vaxxed in the urban pockets that I frequent.

* - and you can still get a dose today if you are affluent enough to have access to a car and some time

[Sibley]

Maybe this has been asked and answered, but how far do you push asking people if they've been vaccinated? Case in point, I use a couple of different veterinarians. One of them has been faithfully following the protocol of clients staying in their cars, the (fully masked) staff runs the pets back and forth. The other is a different situation - I didn't visit during the early onset of the pandemic, but not long afterward they were allowing clients into the waiting room. Masking was hit and miss. Lo and behold, that practice had to shut down in August when Delta was raging. I haven't been back to them and I'm not sure I want to unless I know why they had their shutdown and if they have now changed their practices. Is it even legal to ask a small business about vax status?

Ask. Of course that is legal. If they refuse to answer, you have your answer.

You are free to ask, but I would bet that most businesses answer either "that's none of your business" or "we are in compliance will all OSHA requirements." My company HR department knows everyone's vaccination status. We don't hand it out to people who walk in the door asking for it.

Its a curious thing. I have found, without exception at this point, that if you ask if someone is vaccinated and the response is anything other than an immediate "yes", they're not vaccinated. None of your business = not vaccinated. HIPAA violation = not vaccinated. Weird ramblings about vaccines = not vaccinated. It works in real life, it works online, I have not come across a single individual where this rule doesn't apply.

Businesses are the same way. If they have a policy of wearing masks, requiring vaccination, etc, they'll tell you outright. If they don't, you'll get some other answer. Policies are meant to be shared. How well the policy is followed, enforcement, etc is different. But they'll tell you the if there's a policy.

[Abe]

Regarding the op question - we are hoping omicron burns through quickly and we can get back to relatively normal in a month or so. We are wearing kn95s in public indoor areas or if in an outdoor crowd. Will drop them once the wave passes through. This seems a reasonable compromise long-term.

[roomtempmayo]

There's been a lot of discussion of what it means to live with Covid.

I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving. 

What parts of the old normal do people want back?

What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?

I'll start with one of each.

Old normal: Downtown office workers back in their cubes.  Urban centers as presently configured will die without them.

New normal: Delivery everything is an awesome option.

[Cranky]

I’m not that attached to big city downtowns, honestly.

I think our “normal” is going to be in motion for a while, and not for the first time in my lifetime. But I think that people can do pretty much whatever normal they want at this point.

[HPstache]

I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving. 

What parts of the old normal do people want back?

What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?

Things I want back:  the right to choose to wear or not wear a mask for myself, my family and kids in nearly every scenario.  A return to a life of appropriate levels of caution and reliability for schools, daycares, anywhere involving mostly low risk children , more similar to a pre-covid flu season.  A reduction of the level of paranoia regarding socializing and vaccination status.  For example, I do not think vaccination status should be checked at the door of restaurants and I don't think families should be refusing to gather based on vaccination status disparities. (Please note, I am fully vaxxed).

Things I want to stay:  a heightened level of consideration not to come to work send a child to school when you are not well.  Options for curbside pickup.  Using zoom meetings rather than flying across the country on a regular basis for face-to-face.

[deborah]

I'd like "back to normal" - new normal - to include masking being something people normally do (and not looked at as if you're strange if you do) and it not being acceptable to go to work or other things when you're sick. It's been amazing not having a flu season for two years, or a common cold. As a result of masking and social distancing, we may have eliminated one version of flu during the pandemic - https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-10-21/influenza-virus-yamagata-eradication-vaccine-covid-pandemic/100546836

[PDXTabs]

Businesses are the same way. If they have a policy of wearing masks, requiring vaccination, etc, they'll tell you outright. If they don't, you'll get some other answer. Policies are meant to be shared. How well the policy is followed, enforcement, etc is different. But they'll tell you the if there's a policy.

I would agree that businesses are likely to be forthcoming with their policy on masks, vaccines, or anything else. But where I work our policy is to follow all the rules. So, OSHA, CDC, and local. If there is a rule, we'll enforce/follow it. But also, I work with a bunch of engineers. We aren't dumb. We all got vaccinated the first day that we could, but that wasn't the policy.

[PDXTabs]

I'd like "back to normal" - new normal - to include masking being something people normally do (and not looked at as if you're strange if you do) and it not being acceptable to go to work or other things when you're sick.

I too want this. If I'm sick I want to be able to stay home. If other people are sick I want them to stay home. If I'm on a crowded subway car I want the option to wear a mask without the cops looking at me funny.

[nereo]

Things I want to stay:  a heightened level of consideration not to come to work send a child to school when you are not well.  Options for curbside pickup.  Using zoom meetings rather than flying across the country on a regular basis for face-to-face.

All of the above I’d like to stay, plus:
Telemedicine as an option. More WFH options, particularly in fields/tasks where there’s no need to be there in person. Paying people directly with eTransfers (that has been the default n most of the world for over a decade). Social acceptance of wearing a mask, whether it’s to protect others or oneself. The focus on indoor air quality. Being able to order alcoholic beverages “to go”.

Things I’d like to return to pre-pandemic normal:
General supply chains. Not having thousand die every week from a (now) disease with a great vaccine.

[Zikoris]

I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving. 

What parts of the old normal do people want back?

What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?

The big one for me is wanting to be able to travel uninhibited. Meaning not have stuff get cancelled, borders suddenly close, or have to quarantine, get a pile of Covid tests, etc. I also really would not want to wear a mask for a 14 hour flight since I already struggle a lot to get comfortable enough to sleep at all. Even for local travel within our province, I've had to cancel trips when they did things like ban travel between different health regions.

I really enjoyed working from home for most of the pandemic. I'm back at the office now, but with the new spike I suspect they'll send us all home again soon.

[OtherJen]

I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving. 

What parts of the old normal do people want back?

What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?

Things I want back:  the right to choose to wear or not wear a mask for myself, my family and kids in nearly every scenario.  A return to a life of appropriate levels of caution and reliability for schools, daycares, anywhere involving mostly low risk children , more similar to a pre-covid flu season.  A reduction of the level of paranoia regarding socializing and vaccination status.  For example, I do not think vaccination status should be checked at the door of restaurants and I don't think families should be refusing to gather based on vaccination status disparities. (Please note, I am fully vaxxed).

Things I want to stay:  a heightened level of consideration not to come to work send a child to school when you are not well.  Options for curbside pickup.  Using zoom meetings rather than flying across the country on a regular basis for face-to-face.

I agree with you on all the things you want to stay but am otherwise confused. You want the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a mask but don't think other people should be able to choose whether or not they want to socialize with family members who are or are not vaccinated? You can't have it both ways.

[HPstache]

I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving. 

What parts of the old normal do people want back?

What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?

Things I want back:  the right to choose to wear or not wear a mask for myself, my family and kids in nearly every scenario.  A return to a life of appropriate levels of caution and reliability for schools, daycares, anywhere involving mostly low risk children , more similar to a pre-covid flu season.  A reduction of the level of paranoia regarding socializing and vaccination status.  For example, I do not think vaccination status should be checked at the door of restaurants and I don't think families should be refusing to gather based on vaccination status disparities. (Please note, I am fully vaxxed).

Things I want to stay:  a heightened level of consideration not to come to work send a child to school when you are not well.  Options for curbside pickup.  Using zoom meetings rather than flying across the country on a regular basis for face-to-face.

I agree with you on all the things you want to stay but am otherwise confused. You want the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a mask but don't think other people should be able to choose whether or not they want to socialize with family members who are or are not vaccinated? You can't have it both ways.

It's the way it was before... so yes, I think it can be.  Let me be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't have a choice who you socialize with, but what I am saying is I want it back to the way before where people did not care who had their flu shot to go over to their house for christmas... or ask for their vaccination card to enter a restaurant.   I asked for a reduction in the level of paranoia regarding vaccination status as it was before.

[OtherJen]

I'm curious what sort of "back to normal" people are craving. 

What parts of the old normal do people want back?

What parts of the present abnormal do people want to retain?

Things I want back:  the right to choose to wear or not wear a mask for myself, my family and kids in nearly every scenario.  A return to a life of appropriate levels of caution and reliability for schools, daycares, anywhere involving mostly low risk children , more similar to a pre-covid flu season.  A reduction of the level of paranoia regarding socializing and vaccination status.  For example, I do not think vaccination status should be checked at the door of restaurants and I don't think families should be refusing to gather based on vaccination status disparities. (Please note, I am fully vaxxed).

Things I want to stay:  a heightened level of consideration not to come to work send a child to school when you are not well.  Options for curbside pickup.  Using zoom meetings rather than flying across the country on a regular basis for face-to-face.

I agree with you on all the things you want to stay but am otherwise confused. You want the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a mask but don't think other people should be able to choose whether or not they want to socialize with family members who are or are not vaccinated? You can't have it both ways.

It's the way it was before... so yes, I think it can be.  Let me be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't have a choice who you socialize with, but what I am saying is I want it back to the way before where people did not care who had their flu shot to go over to their house for christmas... or ask for their vaccination card to enter a restaurant.   I asked for a reduction in the level of paranoia regarding vaccination status as it was before.

It’s nice to want things, but if you think other people shouldn’t have a choice in whether you wear a mask or not, then you have to extend the same respect and freedom of choice to others regarding their decision about who enters their home or private business depending on vaccine status.

Lots of things are never going back to the way they were before. This type of paradigm shift happens regularly and for various reasons. Another one was 9/11. Travel has never gone back to the way it was on Sept. 10, 2001.

[elaine amj]

All of the above I’d like to stay, plus:
Telemedicine as an option.

We’ve been really liking telemedicine. Instead of travelling 4 hrs round trip to see DH’s oncologist for a checkup every few months, we’ve been doing every other visit as a telemedicine checkup since it is mostly to say everything looks normal.

Interestingly, I talked to our doctor nephew a couple of days ago when doing a porch visit to drop off presents. He mentioned that most of his patients have been requesting phone appointments. He’s willing to accommodate but many times, they have issues where he does need to see them in person. So now he’s having to spend double the time on a patient. Once by phone, then again in person.

He understands why they are asking for telemedicine but it has really increased his already full workload.


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[PhilB]

One part of the new normal I really hope stays is people being friendlier with their neighbours.  When lockdowns were limiting us all to daily walks around the neighbourhood, we saw and talked to more people than ever before.  In a socially distanced manner of course.

[Arbitrage]

I would love if we could go back to where the prevailing sentiment was that anti-vaxxers were fringe wackos whom you spoke about in the same hushed tones as flat-earthers or moon landing nuts, instead of half of one of the major political parties. 

Sorry not sorry.

[Shane]

All the long-time antivaxxers we know voted for Bernie, HRC, and Biden. It seemed positive that Trump recently spoke out publicly to encourage his supporters to get one of the covid vaccines.

[Arbitrage]

All the long-time antivaxxers we know voted for Bernie, HRC, and Biden. It seemed positive that Trump recently spoke out publicly to encourage his supporters to get one of the covid vaccines.

Yes, before 2020, my impression is that the anti-vaxxers were on both political extremes, not necessarily right wing - both the Gwyneth Paltrows and the Cliven Bundys of the world (don't know if either is really anti-vax, but you get my drift). 

I mean, I still think those career anti-vaxxers are wackos, but it's the giant horde of people who had no problems with all of their vaccines suddenly became anti-this vax because Fox News/televangelists/politicians/whatever that truly boggle my mind.  Yes, I'm related to some of them.

[Paper Chaser]

So the consistent theme that seems to run through almost all of these "return to normal" scenarios is a desire to have fewer limitations and more freedom for each individual to choose what's right for them.

Based on these responses, it seems like most people want the freedom to choose to stay home if they're sick. They want to work remotely if possible, but having an option to work onsite appeals to many as well. They want to be able to wear a mask, or not wear a mask in public as they see fit, or go into stores/restaurants, or easily pick items up curbside or have them delivered, or travel freely.

Although we each prioritize differently, fewer restrictions and more flexibility seems to be enjoyed by pretty much everybody.