Author Topic: End of life planning  (Read 18725 times)

Pigeon

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2017, 02:49:56 PM »
Not buying it. 

My father was in  a hell hole of a nursing home, run by the Catholic church.  They were obsessively focused on cutting corners.   Yeah, a nun came around pushing communion with great frequency, but that meant nothing in regards to how patients were treated. MIL was in an amazing memory care facility, with the most involved, kindest staff, which was totally secular.

Dicey

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2017, 03:20:16 PM »
I think this is a good place to observe that for many elderly, self-driving cars are going to be a total game changer. I'm counting on them, knowing full well I will be able to afford the technology.

TartanTallulah

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2017, 03:20:47 PM »
It's interesting the comments this thread has inspired.  My real question, perhaps not clearly stated, was simply for those of you planning on early FIRE have you included end-of-life expenses (nursing home, etc) in your calculations?  If so, how much have you budgeted?

All the other discussions (assisted suicide, etc) are interesting tangents though.

In that case, no. I don't anticipate reaching that stage for another half-century and there are too many variables in between. I would quite like to move to a retirement apartment in a pleasant town 15 miles from where we live now as it's livelier and has better shopping and recreational facilities within walking distance, and it may be worth working an extra year to save towards doing so, but it would mean a substantial downsize and not being able to have friends and family stay over, and I'm some way from being ready to pull my life in to that extent.

Wise Virgin

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2017, 03:33:02 PM »
Not buying it. 

My father was in  a hell hole of a nursing home, run by the Catholic church.  They were obsessively focused on cutting corners.   Yeah, a nun came around pushing communion with great frequency, but that meant nothing in regards to how patients were treated. MIL was in an amazing memory care facility, with the most involved, kindest staff, which was totally secular.
While an individual religiously-sponsored nursing home may certainly be as bad as you say, and while an individual secular one may certainly be as good as you say (both granted), I will point out that the Catholic church has been taking care of the old, sick, leprous, orphaned, insane, plague-stricken, and destitute as long as there has been a Catholic church, which is 2,000 years.

Again and again on this thread I have seen comments about saving up money - and then the same person admitting that a lot of money really is no good answer.

The secular worldview cannot tell me why I should agree to age and die and not kill myself. The secular wordview cannot tell me why I should agree to care for others who are aging and dying either. I am amazed it gets so much automatic respect when it is so helpless.

pbkmaine

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2017, 03:51:27 PM »
An acquaintance of mine was in charge of inspecting nursing homes in NJ. His observation was that the best nursing homes were not-for-profit and had a sense of mission, whether the mission was religious or not.

wenchsenior

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2017, 04:10:40 PM »
Not buying it. 

My father was in  a hell hole of a nursing home, run by the Catholic church.  They were obsessively focused on cutting corners.   Yeah, a nun came around pushing communion with great frequency, but that meant nothing in regards to how patients were treated. MIL was in an amazing memory care facility, with the most involved, kindest staff, which was totally secular.
While an individual religiously-sponsored nursing home may certainly be as bad as you say, and while an individual secular one may certainly be as good as you say (both granted), I will point out that the Catholic church has been taking care of the old, sick, leprous, orphaned, insane, plague-stricken, and destitute as long as there has been a Catholic church, which is 2,000 years.

Again and again on this thread I have seen comments about saving up money - and then the same person admitting that a lot of money really is no good answer.

The secular worldview cannot tell me why I should agree to age and die and not kill myself. The secular wordview cannot tell me why I should agree to care for others who are aging and dying either. I am amazed it gets so much automatic respect when it is so helpless.



Uh....basic empathy?  No religion required for that. 

Wise Virgin

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2017, 04:28:30 PM »
wenchsenior: basic empathy is not adequate to the task of taking care of a helpless elderly person. You need a strong reason, a reason that is not a feeling. You need a faith.

I think we could benefit from hearing from any caregivers to the elderly who are following this thread? What makes you keep caring, when the person's outward semblance has become repulsive, weak, incapable, deaf, blind, and incontinent?

What makes you keep caring for years?

wenchsenior

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2017, 04:33:40 PM »
wenchsenior: basic empathy is not adequate to the task of taking care of a helpless elderly person. You need a strong reason, a reason that is not a feeling. You need a faith.

I think we could benefit from hearing from any caregivers to the elderly who are following this thread? What makes you keep caring, when the person's outward semblance has become repulsive, weak, incapable, deaf, blind, and incontinent?

What makes you keep caring for years?

I have no doubt faith helps on an individual level.  However, the mostly secular European nations manage to care-give for their elderly, so it obviously isn't required.

Wise Virgin

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2017, 04:52:58 PM »
wenchsenior: basic empathy is not adequate to the task of taking care of a helpless elderly person. You need a strong reason, a reason that is not a feeling. You need a faith.

I think we could benefit from hearing from any caregivers to the elderly who are following this thread? What makes you keep caring, when the person's outward semblance has become repulsive, weak, incapable, deaf, blind, and incontinent?

What makes you keep caring for years?

I have no doubt faith helps on an individual level.  However, the mostly secular European nations manage to care-give for their elderly, so it obviously isn't required.
The mostly secular European nations are in the forefront of assisted suicide also. We are back to gunshots and Swiss clinics again.

It is a sacrifice to take care of an old person who cannot repay you. Your fellow citizens might make that sacrifice out of empathy for a while. Why would they keep doing it? Do you still have worth when you are old? Religion says you do. I can't see what secular argument could be made, the premises are too weak.

My aging, and my dying, is my own proper work. I still have work to do, though I may be blind or in a wheelchair. I have been observing the aging process with my own mother, in her late 80s, and I see that she is doing work. She is setting the house of her life in order, she is regretting valuing what was not important and letting go by what was. If we were to end when we die, you could say, so what? Her regrets and what she is learning don't matter, she's going to be worm food. But if we don't end, then "someday this pain will be useful to you." Yes?

wenchsenior

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2017, 05:13:08 PM »
I can hypothetically see why some people might not feel any compulsion to take care of people who have no tangible use to society or who are physically repulsive.  And I can see why many people cannot come to any comfortable resolution for why the pain and suffering of aging is worth dealing with as the caretaker or caretakee  unless there is an afterlife.  I totally understand your perspective.

My point is, that your worldview isn't universal, and yet plenty of people who are not religious still find reasons to caretake and to live out their allotted span (sometimes in suffering), with no expectation of an afterlife or anything but becoming permanent worm food.  I assume that all of these people have their reasons, and the reasons probably vary from person to person.

But if your premise were true, then European countries wouldn't just allow assisted suicide, they would withdraw care from people after a certain age or disability set in.  But of course they do not.  Secular young people aren't all secretly wishing that old people would just die off without being a burden, and plenty of secular old people manage to find meaning and closure as their time winds down, without putting a gun to their heads because "why not?"






Wise Virgin

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2017, 06:02:31 PM »
Secularism (especially what we see in the European secular state) is really new in human history. It will develop as all things develop: according to its original premises. The logic of choices made will have to work itself out.

Dicey

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2017, 06:25:38 PM »
Wise Virgin, I take care of my MIL, who has Alzheimer's. I didn't really know her when I married her son. From what I have learned of her life, I would probably not have been fast friends with her. I don't do it for her, I do it for him.

FWIW, I loved this semi-autobiographical series. This sweet lady lived in a Presbyterian-run compound for the elderly. She published her first book at age 85. When my sister lived in South Carolina, she discovered it and we visited it once when I was there. Very impressive. All three books are very charming reads.

https://www.amazon.com/Out-Pasture-But-Over-Hill/dp/1561452653

pbkmaine

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2017, 06:43:08 PM »
Just ordered them used! Thanks, Dicey.

Wise Virgin

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2017, 06:46:33 PM »
Dicey, that book looks great! It's on my next Amazon order.

I will certainly read it, and perhaps my mother and sisters will enjoy it as well.

PDXTabs

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2017, 07:47:35 PM »
Ditto. Though I'm married.

There are estate planning attorneys that specialize in making sure that one spouse can have access to medicaid while the other doesn't have to lose everything.

MrsPete

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2017, 08:18:22 PM »
Yes, we have made some end-of-life-plans and will make others as time goes on; we are not nearly old enough for these things to seem "real" to us at this moment ... and we feel that such decisions are easier to make at a younger age while they are still "far away"; we think it'd be a lot harder if one of us was actively dying. 

I was very involved with caring for my grandmother in her elderly years, and I learned a great deal about aging. 

Our thoughts:

- I am younger and in better health, and I have long-lived genes, so the likelihood is that I'll be my husband's caretaker.  He kind of gets the good end of this.  It's easier to turn to a spouse for care than to an adult child.
- I'll need more money than he will for my elderly years.  I'll likely need to pay for some in-home care, housecleaning, etc. 
- We are building a house for our elderly years.  We're planning things like a no-step covered entry ... a no-barrier oversized shower ... a laundry room adjacent to the master bedroom.  These things aren't a lot more expensive than things that go into a standard house, and we're skipping a lot of things other people with means tend to build; for example, we're only building one eating area, we're only building two bathrooms, etc.  Anyway, we feel sure that this house will make it easier for us to stay in our house longer. 
- The house we're building will have two master bedrooms ... one downstairs for us, one upstairs potentially for one of our children /future grandchildren, or a paid caregiver.  This would've been very useful with my grandmother. 
- Having worked with my grandmother, I became very aware of many community services that helped her (and some that didn't help).  The single best thing was Meals on Wheels.  A volunteer brought her a lunch 5 days a week ... that short visit was good for her, and the food was healthy and good -- and usually was enough for her lunch and dinner. 

Pizzabrewer

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2017, 09:13:18 PM »
Wow, religion now. 

Those who believe think their way is the most enlightened and compassionate.

Those who don't think that "true believers" are overbearing and condescending.

Pot:  stirred.

Dicey

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2017, 09:30:27 PM »
Wow, religion now. 

Those who believe think their way is the most enlightened and compassionate.

Those who don't think that "true believers" are overbearing and condescending.

Pot:  stirred.
Yeah, I tried using self-driving cars to create a diversion, but I don't think it worked.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2017, 09:37:30 PM »

Yeah, I tried using self-driving cars to create a diversion, but I don't think it worked.

Ha!  As long as we're off on tangents, in 25 years you won't be allowed to drive your own car.

Dicey

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2017, 09:57:53 PM »
And on the topic of late in life first-time authors, may I introduce you to Harriet Doerr? She published her first book at age 74, then wrote two more. I think I loved the last one best, but probably because I had read the others.

Stones for Ibarra,

Consider This, Senora,

The Tiger In The Grass

OMG! The google gods just gave me this: http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43704.Harriet_Doerr
Best head shot ever! What a woman!

And yes, this is another blatant attempt at distraction, but they're all on-topic.

accolay

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2017, 02:03:27 AM »
I fear losing the ability to wipe my own ass.

I've been there, and it's not as bad as you fear.  I wouldn't make any irreversible decisions based on your expectation of events you haven't yet experienced.  You never really know how much horribleness you can deal with until you don't have any other option but to deal with it.

More specifically, I fear losing the ability to make my requests known, or being "alive" but with nothing upstairs.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2017, 07:20:51 PM »
The single best thing was Meals on Wheels.  A volunteer brought her a lunch 5 days a week ... that short visit was good for her, and the food was healthy and good -- and usually was enough for her lunch and dinner.

A couple of years ago I did some volunteer work with Meals on Wheels and helped deliver food, and I have to say it's an incredible program, and very rewarding to help elderly people who benefit from the food but also from some form of social contact.

Roots&Wings

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2017, 06:31:25 AM »
It's interesting the comments this thread has inspired.  My real question, perhaps not clearly stated, was simply for those of you planning on early FIRE have you included end-of-life expenses (nursing home, etc) in your calculations?  If so, how much have you budgeted?

Yes, I have a buffer in my FIRE expenses for things such as these. In my area, assisted living places (including meals, laundry, cleaning, transportation) runs $2,800 - $4,800 at ones I would consider livable. Any skilled nursing care would hopefully be short-lived.

In my family, there's been a wide range of end of life experiences. From a shock stroke that took 3 weeks in hospital and cost ~$25k (but could have potentially dragged out over years), to general loss of independent living skills (great aunt ultimately ended up in the county home after she ran out of money and couldn't live on her own), to assisted living ($250k buy in + $8k month ongoing expenses), to being in a nursing home for 6 years, to hospice and dying at home.

Given such a range of possibilities, it's somewhat hard to plan for, but an expense buffer is what I'm doing, and last resort, ensuring the local state run facility is decent (should I run out of money and unable to live at home with outside help). Ideally, I'll age in place as much as possible and be at home with family/hospice, but life may have other plans.

o2bfree

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2017, 07:50:03 AM »
The single best thing was Meals on Wheels.  A volunteer brought her a lunch 5 days a week ... that short visit was good for her, and the food was healthy and good -- and usually was enough for her lunch and dinner.

A couple of years ago I did some volunteer work with Meals on Wheels and helped deliver food, and I have to say it's an incredible program, and very rewarding to help elderly people who benefit from the food but also from some form of social contact.

We had the meals on wheels program in my city for years, but now its funding is getting cut. The city is however building "low barrier" housing for homeless addicts so they'll have a safe place to live where they can still drink and shoot up. Growing up in this town, we never saw homeless people standing on street corners with signs, begging for money. Now they're on nearly every corner in some areas. Build the housing and they will come. Nice huh?

I guess I could become a drunk or heroin addict, and the low-barrier housing could be my end of life plan.

JayhawkRacer

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2017, 08:29:13 AM »

Yeah, I tried using self-driving cars to create a diversion, but I don't think it worked.

Ha!  As long as we're off on tangents, in 25 years you won't be allowed to drive your own car.

TRIGGERED

Reynold

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2017, 10:02:19 AM »
DW and I evaluated LTC policies, since both of our fathers had benefited from them.  They used to be a lot cheaper, the insurance companies found they had to pay out a lot more on these than they expected so now they aren't very attractive.  You spend something like $50-80k over the years to get $200k of coverage; for that payoff, we'll just self insure, we should accumulate about that much from saving that premium money ourselves, and will have fewer restrictions on how we can spend it.  A lot of those polices will only pay for caregivers through a company, for example, and both of our fathers at times got help from "informal" caregivers for much cheaper. 

With no kids, though, we are worried.  Both of our parents could not have stayed as long as they did in their houses without us kids visiting and taking care of some things.  We do plan to move out of single family type housing eventually though, and are saving up enough to pay rent and, later, assisted care expenses in our older age.  We expect to need $500k or so for that.  The paid off house idea is nice, but taking care of it turns into a lot of money when you can no longer safely change light bulbs in ordinary ceiling lights (my MIL in her 80s), for example, let alone mow grass or shovel snow. 

We also plan in the next 10 years or so to start more seriously looking into "group housing" type situations, especially ones where there are some variety of ages and people help each other out according to their capabilities, as opposed to paying staff to do everything.  Those are increasing in popularity, and tend to be much cheaper than ones where staff does everything.  I think a key is to not be as wedded to "aging in place, no matter what" as our parents were. 

MrsPete

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2017, 06:35:33 PM »
DW and I evaluated LTC policies, since both of our fathers had benefited from them.  They used to be a lot cheaper, the insurance companies found they had to pay out a lot more on these than they expected so now they aren't very attractive.  You spend something like $50-80k over the years to get $200k of coverage; for that payoff, we'll just self insure, we should accumulate about that much from saving that premium money ourselves, and will have fewer restrictions on how we can spend it.  A lot of those polices will only pay for caregivers through a company, for example, and both of our fathers at times got help from "informal" caregivers for much cheaper.
These policies are disappearing fast.  Realistically, if you don't already have a policy, you're probably not getting one. 

Dicey

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2017, 07:30:00 PM »
DH and I have discussed this at length, and we're just not doing it. They typically don't pay but a fraction of the actual cost. They're usually only good for about 3 years. They're damned expensive and there's no benefit if you die at home in your sleep or get hit by a bus. Not a good return on investment in enough cases. We'd rather just save more. If we don't use it, our favorite charities surely will appreciate our unneeded green soldiers.

I know there are new hybrids emerging. Hmmm, maybe. Anyone seen anything noteworthy?

Sibley

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2017, 08:52:25 AM »
I have a feeling that senior living options, etc are going to change drastically in the next couple of decades. There are WAY too many Baby Boomers that will be aging and needing help, the current structures I don't think can cope with the demand.

A plea on behalf of your families: do not assume your children/family WANT any of your stuff. Ask them. And do not be butt-hurt if they don't. Go get some therapy to deal with it or whatever, but I do not want to deal with either your stuff or your emotions about your stuff. I'm being nice enough worrying about how to keep you fed, housed, and cared for when you're elderly when you have basically zip in savings, so you can just shove your butt-hurtness about me not wanting your crap.

--Sincerely, an adult daughter with a mother who can't accept that fact that her children don't want her stuff. Even if it belonged to great-aunt so-and-so (probably especially that it belonged to great-aunt so-and-so).

Cali Nonya

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #79 on: June 13, 2017, 09:20:52 AM »
I have a feeling that senior living options, etc are going to change drastically in the next couple of decades. There are WAY too many Baby Boomers that will be aging and needing help, the current structures I don't think can cope with the demand.

A plea on behalf of your families: do not assume your children/family WANT any of your stuff. Ask them. And do not be butt-hurt if they don't. Go get some therapy to deal with it or whatever, but I do not want to deal with either your stuff or your emotions about your stuff. I'm being nice enough worrying about how to keep you fed, housed, and cared for when you're elderly when you have basically zip in savings, so you can just shove your butt-hurtness about me not wanting your crap.

--Sincerely, an adult daughter with a mother who can't accept that fact that her children don't want her stuff. Even if it belonged to great-aunt so-and-so (probably especially that it belonged to great-aunt so-and-so).

I basically agree with this, but on the flip side, I have received a lot of nice old kitchen stuff from the older generation of family members.  Since I actually do home canning, wine making, etc, I have been very happy to get old things handed down.  Some of which will get donated, but people are so happy when things can still be used, even if you really only want about 50% of it.  I would say if you have a parent who cares for their stuff just widen the circle of who will help disperse the items.  Aunt So-and-So's old knicknacks might actually find a home.

It was my uncle who gave me some of my grandmother's old kitchen things, if I saw something I would use, the rule was I had to take the whole drawer of stuff.  I also got a ton of material and dishes from another deceased relative's family that do this day I am not quite sure how I am related to.  Something like a 4th cousin?  But they were happy that it was still in the family, even if rather removed.

o2bfree

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2017, 10:01:54 AM »
I have a feeling that senior living options, etc are going to change drastically in the next couple of decades. There are WAY too many Baby Boomers that will be aging and needing help, the current structures I don't think can cope with the demand.
Being near the end of the baby boomer spike, DH and I are hoping for a high rate of vacancy in facilities established to handle the boomers.

rockstache

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2017, 10:44:55 AM »
The single best thing was Meals on Wheels.  A volunteer brought her a lunch 5 days a week ... that short visit was good for her, and the food was healthy and good -- and usually was enough for her lunch and dinner.

I have to say it's an incredible program, and very rewarding to help elderly people who benefit from the food but also from some form of social contact.

+1 I'm so so so grateful for this program. Once a day in the middle of the day, a person has contact with my relative while I'm at work, which can be a really long day for her at home alone. Plus she gets a good meal out of it. It's wonderful.

Linea_Norway

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2017, 11:26:55 AM »
Quote
I worked in a nursing home in college and let me tell you, I would never in a million years go to one. The people there were basically just waiting around to die.

I'd love to believe it works like that.

The thing is, from what I've seen nursing homes are full of people who feel exactly like this.  Nobody plans to be there.  Being opposed to going to one doesn't mean you won't end up in one.  Dementia is insidious.  You're mildly cognitively impaired one day, but still enjoying life and aging in place.  Then out of the blue, you fall, break a hip and get sent to a rehab.  Before you know it, your dementia has racheted up and you're in a nursing home.

My MIL is currently in such a home because of dementia. Since she moved in, half a year ago, 5 people have died there already.
MIL had signed a will that sais she doesn't want medical support when getting a heart attack or similar. She also wrote wanted assisted ending of life when she doesn't recognize anywhan anymore. FIL has discussed this with his sons who have agreed that the will was interpreted correctly.

I would not want to live in a nursing home. But I also know an old man who always said he wanted assisted death when he came in a wheelchair, and later if he would end up in a nursing home. But in the end, he died a natural death in a nursing home. So it is difficult to decide by now where we want to lay the moment of assisted death.

I guess I would want assisted death when life has become totally uninspiring, I cannot move and I cannot read books anymore. I also don't want to become a large burden, like my MIL is for my FIL. He still cannot go on a week's vacation without having someone else familiar visiting his wife twice a day.

friedmmj

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2017, 07:40:39 PM »
I have a feeling that senior living options, etc are going to change drastically in the next couple of decades. There are WAY too many Baby Boomers that will be aging and needing help, the current structures I don't think can cope with the demand.
Being near the end of the baby boomer spike, DH and I are hoping for a high rate of vacancy in facilities established to handle the boomers.

Interesting theory.  Like a nursing home housing bubble that will burst in 2045

Padonak

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2017, 09:43:20 PM »
I have a feeling that senior living options, etc are going to change drastically in the next couple of decades. There are WAY too many Baby Boomers that will be aging and needing help, the current structures I don't think can cope with the demand.
Being near the end of the baby boomer spike, DH and I are hoping for a high rate of vacancy in facilities established to handle the boomers.

Interesting theory.  Like a nursing home housing bubble that will burst in 2045

I wouldn't count on it. I'm in mid 30s, looks like I'll be dead before old people population starts declining.

Source
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-baby-boomers-retirement-means-for-the-u-s-economy/


powskier

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2017, 12:21:05 AM »
I plan on hookers and blow (with a healthy dose of viagra).

I once read a fantastic story about a guy who went to Mexico to find drugs to kill himself with, taxi driver took him to a bordello where he spent many weeks I think spending a ton of money on hookers and coke. Long story short, it gave him the will to live again and now he is a motivational speaker.

I agree with most it seems, I would like for us to be able to treat our dearest loved humans the way we can treat our dearest loved pets and relieve them of their suffering when quality of life is horrendous pain.
As mentioned above it is devastating and unfair to those that have to discover and clean up the mess of gun assisted suicide. Plan better.

accolay

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2017, 03:26:17 AM »
I have a feeling that senior living options, etc are going to change drastically in the next couple of decades. There are WAY too many Baby Boomers that will be aging and needing help, the current structures I don't think can cope with the demand.

I don't have numbers to back this up but I'm not sure I agree with that besides there being more senior housing and dependent on the current administrations possible gutting of Medicare/Medicaid. Nursing homes are really the exception.

dude

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2017, 06:26:25 AM »
It's interesting the comments this thread has inspired.  My real question, perhaps not clearly stated, was simply for those of you planning on early FIRE have you included end-of-life expenses (nursing home, etc) in your calculations?  If so, how much have you budgeted?

All the other discussions (assisted suicide, etc) are interesting tangents though.

Well, I have an LTC policy through work (Fed gov't), that seemed like a good deal at first. But when the last contract period ran out, premiums went up; I chose to keep premium the same while lowering benefits. But I have the nagging suspicion that the pricks will continue to raise premiums every chance they get, and in the end I'll have to drop it after spending thousands of dollars (I really think this is the intentional plan of insurance companies -- collect premiums for years until it becomes unaffordable and people drop out having never made a claim, resulting in large profits for the companies).

Otherwise, being DINKS, dw and I have a pretty solid net worth that I anticipate will only continue to increase as we get older (even with RMDs), so we'll have a lot to spend down (ugh). So, other then current LTC policy for me, we are making no specific plans for end of life care.

dude

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #88 on: June 14, 2017, 06:33:21 AM »

The secular worldview cannot tell me why I should agree to age and die and not kill myself. The secular wordview cannot tell me why I should agree to care for others who are aging and dying either. I am amazed it gets so much automatic respect when it is so helpless.

Right, because being compelled to do so by fear of a wrathful god (i.e., make believe deity) is a preferable alternative. Puh-lease.  I'll take the freedom of the "secular worldview" over the bondage of religious belief every day.

sol

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2017, 06:57:58 AM »
Right, because being compelled to do so by fear of a wrathful god (i.e., make believe deity) is a preferable alternative. Puh-lease.  I'll take the freedom of the "secular worldview" over the bondage of religious belief every day.

Some people find the bondage reassuring, not stifling.

Christianity, like so many religions, is at root based on the abdication of all personal responsibility to an imaginary higher power, a surrender of your humanity in the face of magical and vindictive threats.  "Do it or you'll burn!"  Some people willingly choose that path, because they are happy in the subservient role of unthinking automaton, free of all obligation and responsibilities to find their own way in a messy and complicated world where "doing the right thing" isn't always obvious.  Prescriptive religions make everything obvious, because they leave no room for discussion or doubt.  You just do as you're told, and are promised rewards for being obedient.

But I am alive.  I am a thinking and feeling living being who makes his own decisions and his own value judgments, and I don't want any ancient manuscripts to limit my options in life.  I can eat pork!  I can work on Sunday!  I can grow a beard!  Some days I do all three simultaneously!

wenchsenior

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2017, 07:37:45 AM »
I have a feeling that senior living options, etc are going to change drastically in the next couple of decades. There are WAY too many Baby Boomers that will be aging and needing help, the current structures I don't think can cope with the demand.
Being near the end of the baby boomer spike, DH and I are hoping for a high rate of vacancy in facilities established to handle the boomers.

Interesting theory.  Like a nursing home housing bubble that will burst in 2045

I wouldn't count on it. I'm in mid 30s, looks like I'll be dead before old people population starts declining.

Source
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-baby-boomers-retirement-means-for-the-u-s-economy/

Damn, that is a sobering graph. No wonder the U.S. is facing such a budget hole over the coming decades...

FrugalToque

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2017, 09:53:46 AM »
[MOD NOTE]

This is obviously a touchy and perilous discussion, and religion is always going to get into issues of life and death.  I'm not religious myself, but I get how that's vital to a lot of people, especially when we're talking life and death.

It would be beneficial, however, if we stayed on topic and dropped the discussion of the validity of religion.  Religion can make people do nice things, and also be total assholes to each other.  There are no religions that avoid this.  We all accept that this is true because we can all think of nice people and assholes who are religious, and assholes and nice people who aren't.  The churches run soup kitchens, shelters, but also those despicable residential schools.

We all get that.

Please stop discussing, (or insulting, as some see it), either secular institutions or religious bodies in this thread.  These things get out of control rather quickly.  An idle insult against secularity, or religion, snowballs and then we don't a topic and I have to lock the thread.

Let's get back on topic.

Cheers,
Toque.

Linea_Norway

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2017, 12:22:30 PM »
So far, I am not financially planning for nursing home. I just hope it will work out, somehow. Maybe that's naiv. I am considering taking a post-fire insurance that pays out a good sum when you get disabled or so. I hope that will be an affordable insurance.

former player

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Re: End of life planning
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2017, 12:44:02 PM »
I'm working partly on the basis that I live in a desirable, HCOL part of my country, and that there is a reasonable chance of getting help in return for accommodation, either live-in in a sea-view en suite or in the rental next door.  If not, I'll just have to swim out into the view until there's no coming back.