When the Sheriff Takes Your Money

[GuitarStv]

in Zimbabwe 50,000 cash wont buy a sick of gum.

Could be one of those guys that buys houses on the spot, gambling winnings, going to get something off craigslist or IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER.  In the US we are allowed to do things without demonstrating a reason (YMMV ... apparently...).  Maybe he just wanted to feel like a bad-ass.

I'm not sure how Zimbabwe ended up in a conversation about the actions of sheriffs in the US seizing US currency.

The best rules and regulations exist for a reason.  There are few legitimate reasons to carry around a briefcase of money like that.  Seizure of stuff without cause is definitely something to get upset about . . . but at some point aberrant behavior (like ferrying around huge amounts of cash in the back of your car) becomes a cause for reasonable suspicion does it not?

[jpo]

Removal of the 4th amendment is being normalized as far as I can tell. Look at how everyone is searched before getting onto an airplane...even though that has not been proven to stop a darned thing.

Seems to me that by purchasing a plane ticket you are agreeing to the terms of service of that airline, which now include personal searches.

I would expect it's a different issue entirely if you are traveling in your own personal vehicle.

The airports and airlines are not the ones mandating or operating the searches, the government, specifically the TSA is, which makes it a civil liberties issue.

Touche

[randymarsh]

The best rules and regulations exist for a reason.  There are few legitimate reasons to carry around a briefcase of money like that.  Seizure of stuff without cause is definitely something to get upset about . . . but at some point aberrant behavior (like ferrying around huge amounts of cash in the back of your car) becomes a cause for reasonable suspicion does it not?

I don't see why I shouldn't be able to carry around 50K in a briefcase if I chose to.

The problem is law enforcement is seizing assets and those people aren't even being charged with a crime in at least a few cases. Sometimes they're not even arrested. They're just saying "most people don't carry around large amounts of cash, so if you have a lot of cash you must have gotten it from selling drugs". Amounts as little as a few thousand dollars have also been seized from drivers during routine traffic stops and there are a million reasons why I might have a few grand in cash.

You want to take my money, prove in a court of law that I got it from illegal activity.

[MissPeach]

I saw something similar where I live recently. There is a house and a real estate develop approached the city about building a high rise where this house is. So the city tried to declare eminent domain on the house and demolish it. So the owner has it declared a historic property so it can't be destroyed but it still could be moved. When the house was built it was in a good location but the neighborhood went south for about 50 years and now the land is worth a ton of money after some redevelopment projects in the area. The house is old but isn't condemned or anything like that.

This concept really bothers me investing in real estate. So if I buy a great location and it happens to still be a great location 50 years later,,. Or if I bet the neighborhood will improve and I'm correct... then I can have my land taken from me if someone fancier with more connections than me comes along.

[Cassie]

2 of the people that had their $ seized had to go to court to get it back. One young couple were going to pick up a used car for abut $5,000 and of course they took the $. The sheriff should go to jail.

[DoubleDown]

Debating this the other night, my wife brought up the usual "But if you have nothing to hide, what do you care if the police want to look in your car, or if the government wanted to listen to my phone calls? Or if you have a bunch of money, you might be up to no good."

I can definitely understand that viewpoint, as I also have nothing to hide, but it's still maddening to me that anyone would be so willing to give up their constitutional protections so easily. Not to get all tinfoil hat paranoid, but I tried to explain that while we currently have nothing to hide, it could be a different state of affairs if we found ourselves living under a government we did not like, and instead of my wife discussing the latest gossip on the phone with her friend, she was instead saying how she thinks our government stinks. Then she's "detained." It's a dangerous slippery slope argument that can easily turn into what looks like paranoia, but there are a million tiny steps along the way to giving up our freedoms, and at some point you give up too much.

I mean, WTF, it's not that far off to see how people are routinely whisked away in Moscow or China if they have anything negative to say about government; have their property taken away, be put into "protective custody", and so on. Our country is amazing and nowhere near that state of affairs, so it's a ridiculous comparison, but I'd say that's due in large part to our culture and history of protecting our rights so dearly, and standing up to abuses.

[Eric]

I saw something similar where I live recently. There is a house and a real estate develop approached the city about building a high rise where this house is. So the city tried to declare eminent domain on the house and demolish it. So the owner has it declared a historic property so it can't be destroyed but it still could be moved. When the house was built it was in a good location but the neighborhood went south for about 50 years and now the land is worth a ton of money after some redevelopment projects in the area. The house is old but isn't condemned or anything like that.

This concept really bothers me investing in real estate. So if I buy a great location and it happens to still be a great location 50 years later,,. Or if I bet the neighborhood will improve and I'm correct... then I can have my land taken from me if someone fancier with more connections than me comes along.

At least with eminent domain, they pay you for it instead of just stealing it outright.

[GuitarStv]

Debating this the other night, my wife brought up the usual "But if you have nothing to hide, what do you care if the police want to look in your car, or if the government wanted to listen to my phone calls? Or if you have a bunch of money, you might be up to no good."

I can definitely understand that viewpoint, as I also have nothing to hide, but it's still maddening to me that anyone would be so willing to give up their constitutional protections so easily. Not to get all tinfoil hat paranoid, but I tried to explain that while we currently have nothing to hide, it could be a different state of affairs if we found ourselves living under a government we did not like, and instead of my wife discussing the latest gossip on the phone with her friend, she was instead saying how she thinks our government stinks. Then she's "detained." It's a dangerous slippery slope argument that can easily turn into what looks like paranoia, but there are a million tiny steps along the way to giving up our freedoms, and at some point you give up too much.

I mean, WTF, it's not that far off to see how people are routinely whisked away in Moscow or China if they have anything negative to say about government; have their property taken away, be put into "protective custody", and so on. Our country is amazing and nowhere near that state of affairs, so it's a ridiculous comparison, but I'd say that's due in large part to our culture and history of protecting our rights so dearly, and standing up to abuses.

Well argued, and quite a valid point.

[Midwest]

Debating this the other night, my wife brought up the usual "But if you have nothing to hide, what do you care if the police want to look in your car, or if the government wanted to listen to my phone calls? Or if you have a bunch of money, you might be up to no good."

Law abiding citizen here - I care because they don't have the right to intrude upon my privacy without certain requirements being met (ie a warrant).  Those requirements were put in place to avoid abuse of power and should be obeyed to prevent abuses.

I believe most police are good people, rules need to obeyed however.  Police often assume you will comply with their request without regard for procedure.  Many times you just need to politely remind them of the procedure.  Politeness (on both sides) goes a long way.

Question - Has anyone else ever had the awful experience of being within a 1 mile radius of the POTUS?  Talk about feeling like you have no rights.  "Were sorry sir, the bike path is closed because the President in on the interstate above you sometime in the next 2 hours"

[Purple Economist]

in Zimbabwe 50,000 cash wont buy a sick of gum.

Could be one of those guys that buys houses on the spot, gambling winnings, going to get something off craigslist or IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER.  In the US we are allowed to do things without demonstrating a reason (YMMV ... apparently...).  Maybe he just wanted to feel like a bad-ass.

I'm not sure how Zimbabwe ended up in a conversation about the actions of sheriffs in the US seizing US currency.

The best rules and regulations exist for a reason.  There are few legitimate reasons to carry around a briefcase of money like that.  Seizure of stuff without cause is definitely something to get upset about . . . but at some point aberrant behavior (like ferrying around huge amounts of cash in the back of your car) becomes a cause for reasonable suspicion does it not?

One, I don't think having a large amount of cash is cause for reasonable suspicion.  Once you start granting arguments like that, we can come up with a laundry list of things that are grounds for reasonable suspicion.  I mean seriously, what does anyone need that large of a knife for?  Or who really needs that much ammo?  Or who wears their pants below their waist so that others can see your underwear?

Two, there is a huge difference between reasonable suspicion and the assumption that you are guilty.  With civil asset forfeiture, the government seizes your property and then you go to civil court where the government only has to show that a preponderance of the evidence indicates your seized property are  proceeds from or involved in the commission of a crime.  There is no beyond a reasonable doubt.  A preponderance of the evidence is not a high standard.  It doesn't matter if you are never even charged with a crime, it is still easy for the government to keep your property.

Civil asset forfeiture is an abomination in this country.  It distorts our legal system and screws over a lot of innocent people.

[AlanStache]

@GuitarStv:  Zimbabwe has hyper-hyper-mega inflation and 50,000 Zimbo-dollars is about 8 bucks.  was a bad joke about number magnitudes.  But at the same time we can all see how dollar limits set today become absurd after a few years/decades.

[Spork]

Debating this the other night, my wife brought up the usual "But if you have nothing to hide, what do you care if the police want to look in your car, or if the government wanted to listen to my phone calls? Or if you have a bunch of money, you might be up to no good."

My standard reply is: Do you wear pants?  Why?  Do you have something to hide?   ;)

[Blindsquirrel]

  Well, if you wear pants, for the sake of all that is holy, do not clench your buttocks or this may happen to you!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/05/david-eckert-enema-colonoscopy-drugs-traffic-stop_n_4218320.html
   Also the boys in NV are pikers compared to TX, one small town, the police stole about $3,000,000 before they were stopped.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/09/texas-police-shakedown-lawsuit_n_1758134.html
 
NWA was 100% correct.

[rocksinmyhead]

I volunteer for a local organization and one of my shifts was with the sheriff for the neighboring county.  He told me they take the cash from traffic stops any time it's over $1000 and sometimes less.  Figures it's always drug money on one end or the other and nobody ever shows back up to prove they got it legally.  That's his perspective.

Ahhh...Texas.  Where just about everyone has a gun and you can go to jail for ...jaywalking.

http://kxan.com/2014/02/21/jogger-arrested-after-being-stopped-for-jaywalking-sparks-outrage-across-campus/

But it's cool, because, "Cops are actually committing sexual assaults on duty so I thank God that this is what passes for a controversy in Austin, Tex." - police chief Art Acevedo in response to the above incident.

oh good lord. interestingly, the only time in my life I've ever been handcuffed with guns pointed at me and put in the back seat of a cop car was a few weeks ago in... wait for it... Texas. turns out it was just a case of mistaken identity/confused 911 caller (they thought we were carjackers?!) but still, jesus fuck that was alarming. one cop also gave us the old "you're lucky we're being nice, we could have given the driver a DUI and the passengers public intox" despite the fact that the driver had had two beers in a few hours and passed a field sobriety test, and myself and the other passenger were neither particularly intoxicated, nor were we in public until we were asked to exit our vehicle at gunpoint. I guess I don't know the letter of the law on that one, but it annoyed me.

anyway, that experience was a real eye-opener for me re. these kinds of things. I'm a law-abiding citizen. I only got two fucking detentions my whole K-12 career and they were both for being late. I've never been scared of cops... my dad's twin brother is a former cop. but it is scary to feel that lack of control over a situation, even if you KNOW you haven't done anything wrong.

and yeah, I agree with whoever said this thread makes them sad. I'll take liberty over safety any day.

[Cassie]

The people stopped were told to sign over their money to the cops on a form that said they would not get it back or they would put their kids in foster care, them in jail, confiscate their cars, etc.  They were scared so did it. Sure hope those cops get fired.

[golfer44]

For those interested: http://www.policemisconduct.net/

[randymarsh]

Sure hope those cops get fired.

Ha!

[Blindsquirrel]

  I wish every US citizen read www.policemisconduct.net  In Teneha Tx, nobody was fired at all.  Very sad state the US has fallen into. The police should be feared is a sad fact and a sorry state of affairs.

[oldtoyota]

I get the outrage over the seizure of large amounts of money with little apparent cause.  There's some tremendous potential for abuse, and the whole thing smells rotten.  That said . . .


The originally posted article does mention that one guy was driving around with a briefcase filled with 50,000$ cash.  I'm trying to think of the legitimate reasons you would have to carry that much cash on you while driving around and drawing somewhat of a blank.

It doesn't matter. Just because a person carries cash does not a criminal make.

[oldtoyota]

Debating this the other night, my wife brought up the usual "But if you have nothing to hide, what do you care if the police want to look in your car, or if the government wanted to listen to my phone calls? Or if you have a bunch of money, you might be up to no good."

My standard reply is: Do you wear pants?  Why?  Do you have something to hide?   ;)

Using that logic, if you have nothing to hide, then a TSA agent feeling your body with their hands until "they meet resistance" should be no big deal.

[RetiredAt63]

Question - Has anyone else ever had the awful experience of being within a 1 mile radius of the POTUS?  Talk about feeling like you have no rights.  "Were sorry sir, the bike path is closed because the President in on the interstate above you sometime in the next 2 hours"

Happened to my sister when she was driving to the airport to pick me up.  She had to find an alternate route in an area she was not familiar with.  At least she could get into the airport!

[AlanStache]

POTUS:  They will be closing down a large part of the Netherlands sunday to tuesday for the nuclear summit, roads, some trains, freeway overpasses.  And I am told he will be staying on a boat off the shore and the summit is still tens of miles away.  Many people I am working with will have to stay home because they cant get to the office otherwise.

[frugalnacho]

in Zimbabwe 50,000 cash wont buy a sick of gum.

Could be one of those guys that buys houses on the spot, gambling winnings, going to get something off craigslist or IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER.  In the US we are allowed to do things without demonstrating a reason (YMMV ... apparently...).  Maybe he just wanted to feel like a bad-ass.

I'm not sure how Zimbabwe ended up in a conversation about the actions of sheriffs in the US seizing US currency.

The best rules and regulations exist for a reason.  There are few legitimate reasons to carry around a briefcase of money like that.  Seizure of stuff without cause is definitely something to get upset about . . . but at some point aberrant behavior (like ferrying around huge amounts of cash in the back of your car) becomes a cause for reasonable suspicion does it not?

So why not gather evidence and give him a fair trial? Isn't that what we do in america when we have reasonable suspicion someone is committing/has committed a crime?