Author Topic: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?  (Read 3408 times)

medinaj2160

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What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« on: March 21, 2023, 08:45:17 PM »
I am 38 and my wife is 39 and I am wondering what would be a safe SWR for us?  When SS kick in it should cover half of our expenses.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2023, 08:50:10 PM »
Are you trying to retire now?

GilesMM

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2023, 08:59:32 PM »
IIRC 3.5% SWR is 99% safe for 60 years, historically speaking. 

medinaj2160

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2023, 09:09:03 PM »
Are you trying to retire now?

I think so. I might do some side jobs or my wife might eventually. I would think is an ok time to pull the trigger since the market is not at all time high. Why are you asking? Thanks.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2023, 09:34:28 PM »
Just wasn't clear from your post whether you were trying to retire now vs later, which impacts your retirement duration, and therefore what some people would consider "safe."

My short answer is 3% as it seems to be pretty safe for that long of a retirement and it's highly unlikely that at your age that you'll NEVER earn another dollar ever again.

I'm using 4% in my projections still but we're looking to retire late 40s early 50s when the kids are grown. By then I'll have a better idea of what SS will look like for our generation.

Malossi792

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2023, 02:07:04 AM »
If you haven't already, I recommend you read ERN's SWR series, it's great stuff!
I'm sure it would help you plan you strategy going forward.

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2023, 07:11:41 AM »
There's a lot out there on Perpetual Withdrawal Rates worth a read.  If you have a lot of extra (FatFire I guess) then even thinking more like a endowment withdrawal method where you let your distributions fluxuate with your portfolio is another approach).  I think your age and younger is about the time to be thinking more about those methods and less about the 4%SWR "rule" and related studies. 

MMMarbleheader

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2023, 07:53:21 AM »
I will be 38 when I hit 4% SWR rate. My plan is to quite my job but pick up part time work to cover my expenses until I hit 3% then revisit full FIRE.

Metalcat

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2023, 08:15:32 AM »
If you haven't already, I recommend you read ERN's SWR series, it's great stuff!
I'm sure it would help you plan you strategy going forward.

This. It should basically be mandatory reading before anyone actually pulls the plug.

Also, you should probably do a case study for that kind of personalized advice. It will vary dramatically depending on your particular circumstances and plans.

Laura33

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2023, 09:30:40 AM »
I'd encourage you not to think in terms of "safe" and "unsafe," because that's both binary and a false dichotomy.  Life is all about shades of grey, and where you land on the spectrum depends on your individual circumstances.

The most significant factors, off the top of my head, are how much you like/hate your job, how much flexibility you have to go back to work/earn money (and how much you'd enjoy the options that would be available to you), how much fluff their is in your FIRE budget to cut if things go badly, what's your health/life expectancy like, and whether you have specific compelling reasons to work more or quit now (e.g., paying for nursing home for aged parents, wanting to be home with your kids while they're young, etc.).

For me, I have a job I generally enjoy and that pays well (lawyer), and which has allowed me flexibility to work more or less as my life demands.  So my current situation is pretty sweet.  It also has a high barrier to entry, so when I finally quit, I won't just be able to go back into a high-paid role easily, and I'd be filling any $$ gaps with a barista-type job.  So for me, a "safe" SWR is pretty damn high -- the risk/reward says that I might as well stay here and make a shit-ton of money doing stuff I don't mind, as additional insurance against the risk of needing a boring gruntwork job in 10 years. 

OTOH, a lot of people here truly hate their jobs and cannot wait to be able to quit.  For them, the current unhappiness outweighs the need for a guarantee they'll never need to work again, so a "safe" SWR can be a lot lower -- especially if they are willing/able to pick up part-time work down the line as needed.  So where are you on this spectrum?

The reality is that there's no such thing as "safe."  Shit happens, things change.  Plan for what you can, given your particular circumstance, sure.  But the real key to success is to expect that things will never work out precisely as planned, and so develop your flexibility muscles so you're ready to adjust to whatever comes your way. 

mistymoney

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2023, 09:53:51 AM »
I'd encourage you not to think in terms of "safe" and "unsafe," because that's both binary and a false dichotomy.  Life is all about shades of grey, and where you land on the spectrum depends on your individual circumstances.

The most significant factors, off the top of my head, are how much you like/hate your job, how much flexibility you have to go back to work/earn money (and how much you'd enjoy the options that would be available to you), how much fluff their is in your FIRE budget to cut if things go badly, what's your health/life expectancy like, and whether you have specific compelling reasons to work more or quit now (e.g., paying for nursing home for aged parents, wanting to be home with your kids while they're young, etc.).

For me, I have a job I generally enjoy and that pays well (lawyer), and which has allowed me flexibility to work more or less as my life demands.  So my current situation is pretty sweet.  It also has a high barrier to entry, so when I finally quit, I won't just be able to go back into a high-paid role easily, and I'd be filling any $$ gaps with a barista-type job.  So for me, a "safe" SWR is pretty damn high -- the risk/reward says that I might as well stay here and make a shit-ton of money doing stuff I don't mind, as additional insurance against the risk of needing a boring gruntwork job in 10 years. 

OTOH, a lot of people here truly hate their jobs and cannot wait to be able to quit.  For them, the current unhappiness outweighs the need for a guarantee they'll never need to work again, so a "safe" SWR can be a lot lower -- especially if they are willing/able to pick up part-time work down the line as needed.  So where are you on this spectrum?

The reality is that there's no such thing as "safe."  Shit happens, things change.  Plan for what you can, given your particular circumstance, sure.  But the real key to success is to expect that things will never work out precisely as planned, and so develop your flexibility muscles so you're ready to adjust to whatever comes your way.

I think you have these flipped....otherwsie, I am not understanding the logic.

Laura33

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2023, 10:23:08 AM »
I'd encourage you not to think in terms of "safe" and "unsafe," because that's both binary and a false dichotomy.  Life is all about shades of grey, and where you land on the spectrum depends on your individual circumstances.

The most significant factors, off the top of my head, are how much you like/hate your job, how much flexibility you have to go back to work/earn money (and how much you'd enjoy the options that would be available to you), how much fluff their is in your FIRE budget to cut if things go badly, what's your health/life expectancy like, and whether you have specific compelling reasons to work more or quit now (e.g., paying for nursing home for aged parents, wanting to be home with your kids while they're young, etc.).

For me, I have a job I generally enjoy and that pays well (lawyer), and which has allowed me flexibility to work more or less as my life demands.  So my current situation is pretty sweet.  It also has a high barrier to entry, so when I finally quit, I won't just be able to go back into a high-paid role easily, and I'd be filling any $$ gaps with a barista-type job.  So for me, a "safe" SWR is pretty damn high -- the risk/reward says that I might as well stay here and make a shit-ton of money doing stuff I don't mind, as additional insurance against the risk of needing a boring gruntwork job in 10 years. 

OTOH, a lot of people here truly hate their jobs and cannot wait to be able to quit.  For them, the current unhappiness outweighs the need for a guarantee they'll never need to work again, so a "safe" SWR can be a lot lower -- especially if they are willing/able to pick up part-time work down the line as needed.  So where are you on this spectrum?

The reality is that there's no such thing as "safe."  Shit happens, things change.  Plan for what you can, given your particular circumstance, sure.  But the real key to success is to expect that things will never work out precisely as planned, and so develop your flexibility muscles so you're ready to adjust to whatever comes your way.

I think you have these flipped....otherwsie, I am not understanding the logic.

Think of it this way.  Say I've saved enough to manage a 3.5% SWR.  I could retire today, and the numbers say I have a decent chance of not running out of money -- let's say it's a 70% chance.  Alternatively, say I could work another 5 years and get that up to a 4.5% SWR, which gives me like a 99%+ chance of not running out of money.*  So which of those options is "safe enough"?  That depends entirely on my circumstances. 

So my scenario:  I'm making a lot of money in a job I'm happy with.  If I quit, I won't be able to go back to a similar job.  So for me, I'd much rather work a few extra years now if doing so takes my long-term chance of success form 70% (my current 3.5% SWR) to 99%+ (what it would be if I waited another 5 years).  Basically, 5 years at a pretty good job reduces my chance of failure from 30% to less than 1%, and that's a really good tradeoff given that I'm happy where I am now. 

OTOH, if I'm freaking miserable, then boy, a 70% chance of success sounds really good if it allows me to walk away from a situation that I cannot stand, so I'm willing to settle for a 3.5% SWR, even knowing it's more likely that I might have to go back to work at some point.  And if my job is the kind that allows me to step back into a higher-paid position in several years, then that's even more of a reason to quit now and take my chances on the 3.5% SWR, because the risk of that 30% "bad" outcome is mitigated by my ability to earn money later if I need it. 

*I am totally making up these numbers.

Malossi792

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2023, 10:48:15 AM »
Sounds logical, just substitute 3.5 for 4.5 and vice versa.

Omy

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2023, 10:52:46 AM »
The higher your stash is, the lower your withdrawal rate will be assuming the same income requirement.

If you need $40k per year, you can do that with a 4% withdrawal rate if your stash is $1M. Your withdrawal rate drops to 2% if your stash is $2M.

Villanelle

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2023, 11:01:56 AM »
There's no definitive answer to this question.  Unfortunately, it isn't as easy as someone else doing some math, imputing data, and spitting out that x.xx% is a 100% guaranteed SWR.  And even that wouldn't take into account what would happen if you have a major illness or other expense that you hadn't factored in.

I like to start at 4%, since that's what the various studies show as a solid WR (though that doesn't always account for a younger, longer retirement).  Then I look at my life and think about factors that might make be above or below average.

Some aboves (meaning my chances for success are better, which would lead to a higher WR being "safe"):
Will have very solid health insurance, for life
Can very reasonably expect a large inheritance (but I don't factor in any specific amount when doing my math)
Have a very chubby budget so there's plenty to trim during down markets or high inflation
Plan to keep my tiny side hustle going indefinitely.  It's easy, stress free, WFH, self-paced, and semi-enjoyable.  It also creates a small inflation hedge and might be able to scale up as needed.
DH and I are totally willing to pick up some side hustles here and there if needed.  Since earning even a few thousand $ a year will make a difference in a down market, this is huge.
We are smart and resourceful.
We don't have children or anyone else who relies on us financially, which decreases the chances of some types of unexpected expenses.
DH's inflation-adjusted pension
Etc.

Some belows:
No kids means we are 100% on our own.  There will be no one to move in with us or move us in with them, or visit to help with tasks as we age.  That means our chances of needing to hire out for things are higher, which means our budget is more likely to increase in later years.
We will be younger than average when we retire, which means more time our money needs to last.
Climate-change presents what I consider to be an additional level of unpredictability, not factored into the models.
etc.

Clearly, my list of Aboves is longer than my list of Belows, though neither here is comprehensive.  That makes me feel pretty safe that we don't need to dip into <4% WR as we plan.

I think this is the kind of thinking everyone needs to do.  Do you have children?  Do you want to pay for college for them?  What if those costs skyrocket even more?  What if they excel at an activity and you want to be able to indulge that at a high (expensive) level? Do you have skills that would likely allow you to go back to at least some work, especially in the first ~5 years when SORR are the worst, even if it's during a recession and everyone else is looking for work as well?  Is you budget large enough that there will be things you can easily cut for a few years when the economy is struggling? (It's much easier to trim things if you plan to spend $150k/yr and have a paid off house, than if you plan to spend $30k and have a house payment.)  Will you resent having to do that? Would you consider any need to return to work as a failure, or it that just one basic component of your overall strategy?

Start asking yourself and answering these types of questions and you should get a decent sense of whether you are likely to be better or worst off than the average person, for whom "about 4%" is a solid, but certainly not foolproof, answer.





« Last Edit: March 22, 2023, 02:09:14 PM by Villanelle »

Laura33

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2023, 11:50:59 AM »
Oops.  Brain fart.  Sorry.  Thanks for the correction (the best part is that it was such an awesome brain fart that I even doubled down on it).

Omy

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2023, 11:52:33 AM »
You can't get away with anything around here...ha!

HipGnosis

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2023, 07:28:46 AM »
If you haven't already, I recommend you read ERN's SWR series, it's great stuff!
I'm sure it would help you plan you strategy going forward.

This. It should basically be mandatory reading before anyone actually pulls the plug.

Also, you should probably do a case study for that kind of personalized advice. It will vary dramatically depending on your particular circumstances and plans.
Who (or what>) is "ERN"??

MisterA

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2023, 07:46:51 AM »

Metalcat

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2023, 07:55:25 AM »
Who (or what>) is "ERN"??
Good question!

https://earlyretirementnow.com/

Basically the Bible on SWR and understanding SORR.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2023, 09:38:51 AM »
Great answers so far, as usual from this group, aside from one brain fart that has since cleared :)

One other thing I'd be trying to accomplish given the current market circumstances would be trying to have as high a SWR as possible while also having as conservative an asset allocation as possible.  Bonds and annuities used to have such paltry yields that people rightfully ignored them, but that 'dependable income' is the thing you are trying to replace when you cease earning a paycheck.  Although your age typically has something like 80/20 equities/fixed income, maybe you could go 70/30 or 60/40 in ER?  The expected lifetime return would be lower, but sequence of return risk would be lower too, and you get stability from the rebalancing...  There's always a trade-off, but I'd have more confidence in my FIRE longevity if I had a significant income from Treasuries + TIPS.

Malossi792

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2023, 11:29:02 AM »
Great answers so far, as usual from this group, aside from one brain fart that has since cleared :)

One other thing I'd be trying to accomplish given the current market circumstances would be trying to have as high a SWR as possible while also having as conservative an asset allocation as possible.  Bonds and annuities used to have such paltry yields that people rightfully ignored them, but that 'dependable income' is the thing you are trying to replace when you cease earning a paycheck.  Although your age typically has something like 80/20 equities/fixed income, maybe you could go 70/30 or 60/40 in ER?  The expected lifetime return would be lower, but sequence of return risk would be lower too, and you get stability from the rebalancing...  There's always a trade-off, but I'd have more confidence in my FIRE longevity if I had a significant income from Treasuries + TIPS.
This is why we recommend ERN.
What I find most intriguing from the SWR series is the part about reverse equity glidepaths, and its twin sister, the pre-retirement glidepath article.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2023, 11:59:56 AM »
Great answers so far, as usual from this group, aside from one brain fart that has since cleared :)

One other thing I'd be trying to accomplish given the current market circumstances would be trying to have as high a SWR as possible while also having as conservative an asset allocation as possible.  Bonds and annuities used to have such paltry yields that people rightfully ignored them, but that 'dependable income' is the thing you are trying to replace when you cease earning a paycheck.  Although your age typically has something like 80/20 equities/fixed income, maybe you could go 70/30 or 60/40 in ER?  The expected lifetime return would be lower, but sequence of return risk would be lower too, and you get stability from the rebalancing...  There's always a trade-off, but I'd have more confidence in my FIRE longevity if I had a significant income from Treasuries + TIPS.
This is why we recommend ERN.
What I find most intriguing from the SWR series is the part about reverse equity glidepaths, and its twin sister, the pre-retirement glidepath article.

Yup, and also why everyone is going to give you a different answer to OP's question.  If I were the OP, I would be reading ERN and fiddling with cFireSim / FireCalc, trying to come up with acceptable assumptions and strategies...

Ron Scott

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2023, 12:11:44 PM »
If you think the 21st Century is playing out like a repeat of the 20th, the historical data that leads to the 3% and 4% recommendations are just as good as they used to be.

If you believe times are different, don’t assume you can determine a SWR in your 30s.

BicycleB

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2023, 06:03:22 PM »
I am 38 and my wife is 39 and I am wondering what would be a safe SWR for us?  When SS kick in it should cover half of our expenses.

So many good answers!

@medinaj2160, one way to understand this is use the retirement calculators, cFIREsim or FireCalc, mentioned in a previous post. I think they allow you to put in your SS income as well as your investments, and calculate percentage of success based on your ages if you retire today with you have now. You can also project % of success based on various assumptions; for example, in FIRECalc, you can choose different withdrawal % and calculate the resulting % of success.

https://www.cfiresim.com/

https://firecalc.com/

In my view, the best visualization is the "Rich, Broke or Dead" calculator. It makes similar calculations based on the data you put in, using the assumption of future performance being similar to past performance (something that all the calculators do to some extent - no one can predict the future for sure, this is as close as we get). Then it adds something else that's important: the % chance you'll be dead by a given year, based on US longevity statistics. The result displays as one beautiful simple graph that color codes the outcome over time - green is where you have enough $, black means you're dead,* and if there's a projected possibility of running out of $, that appears as a little sliver of red when you're 85 or whatever. A graph that's all green and black means you have enough money forever under the assumptions you used, so if you're comfortable with those, quit your job as soon as you want.

https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

PS. Feel free to post as you absorb all these replies. Also, when you come to some sort of conclusion or new understanding, let us know!

Best of luck :)

*I don't know how it handles lifespan for a couple. Have fun exploring.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2023, 06:15:47 PM by BicycleB »

secondcor521

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2023, 08:35:11 PM »
Great answers so far, as usual from this group, aside from one brain fart that has since cleared :)

One other thing I'd be trying to accomplish given the current market circumstances would be trying to have as high a SWR as possible while also having as conservative an asset allocation as possible.  Bonds and annuities used to have such paltry yields that people rightfully ignored them, but that 'dependable income' is the thing you are trying to replace when you cease earning a paycheck.  Although your age typically has something like 80/20 equities/fixed income, maybe you could go 70/30 or 60/40 in ER?  The expected lifetime return would be lower, but sequence of return risk would be lower too, and you get stability from the rebalancing...  There's always a trade-off, but I'd have more confidence in my FIRE longevity if I had a significant income from Treasuries + TIPS.

FIREcalc has a nice Investigate tab where you can put in all your particulars (age, AA, SS, porfolio ER, etc.), then see how your AA affects your WR success rate.

What I usually do, because I'm well below historical SWR rates, is first use the Investigate tab to figure out a spending rate that is a little unsafe by solving for spending rate at a 95% success rate.  I then put that in for my spending, then solve for AA.  Usually extreme AAs have lower success rates and the middle has some sort of plateau.  I pick the highest stock AA that is consistent with that plateau.

What you'll tend to find is that, at least in historical terms, those dependable income sources get outstripped by inflation, especially on an after-tax basis (because you pay income taxes on nominal growth, not real growth), especially over longer time periods.  A 70/30 is only optimal for planning periods of about 10 years or so; 60/40 is probably even shorter - maybe 5 years?

I'm almost 54, been FIREd about 7 years, and for my FIRE portfolio I'm at 95/5 because I have a 36 year planning horizon.  Because I have more than I need, the excess is 100/0, so my overall is about 98/2.  But my net WR is about 1% so it's easier to be that aggressive on my AA.  That's even as I look at it as "maximally safe" given history, because I think the future will be at least as good as the past, if not a bit better.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2023, 03:37:43 PM »
Great answers so far, as usual from this group, aside from one brain fart that has since cleared :)

One other thing I'd be trying to accomplish given the current market circumstances would be trying to have as high a SWR as possible while also having as conservative an asset allocation as possible.  Bonds and annuities used to have such paltry yields that people rightfully ignored them, but that 'dependable income' is the thing you are trying to replace when you cease earning a paycheck.  Although your age typically has something like 80/20 equities/fixed income, maybe you could go 70/30 or 60/40 in ER?  The expected lifetime return would be lower, but sequence of return risk would be lower too, and you get stability from the rebalancing...  There's always a trade-off, but I'd have more confidence in my FIRE longevity if I had a significant income from Treasuries + TIPS.

FIREcalc has a nice Investigate tab where you can put in all your particulars (age, AA, SS, porfolio ER, etc.), then see how your AA affects your WR success rate.

What I usually do, because I'm well below historical SWR rates, is first use the Investigate tab to figure out a spending rate that is a little unsafe by solving for spending rate at a 95% success rate.  I then put that in for my spending, then solve for AA.  Usually extreme AAs have lower success rates and the middle has some sort of plateau.  I pick the highest stock AA that is consistent with that plateau.

What you'll tend to find is that, at least in historical terms, those dependable income sources get outstripped by inflation, especially on an after-tax basis (because you pay income taxes on nominal growth, not real growth), especially over longer time periods.  A 70/30 is only optimal for planning periods of about 10 years or so; 60/40 is probably even shorter - maybe 5 years?

I'm almost 54, been FIREd about 7 years, and for my FIRE portfolio I'm at 95/5 because I have a 36 year planning horizon.  Because I have more than I need, the excess is 100/0, so my overall is about 98/2.  But my net WR is about 1% so it's easier to be that aggressive on my AA.  That's even as I look at it as "maximally safe" given history, because I think the future will be at least as good as the past, if not a bit better.

Yeah, but a Year 2000 ER would've been improved by bond exposure (yielding about 5% back then)...  Instead a 100% equity ER is headed toward failure (i.e. less than 4% real returns...).  You can pick up that lively discussion starting here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/did-the-great-resignation-class-of-21-22-just-pick-the-worst-time-to-retire/msg3127295/#msg3127295

Ron Scott

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2023, 05:08:55 PM »
I'm almost 54, been FIREd about 7 years, and for my FIRE portfolio I'm at 95/5 because I have a 36 year planning horizon. But my net WR is about 1% so it's easier to be that aggressive on my AA.  That's even as I look at it as "maximally safe" given history, because I think the future will be at least as good as the past, if not a bit better.

Well neither of us knows what the future will bring, which is a matter best considered over beers!

But I like your WR approach, especially for an early retiree. I retired more toward the “normal” range and currently run a 1.5% WR. To me this is the very definition of frugal, i.e. living below what the majority would consider your means.

secondcor521

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2023, 06:39:47 PM »
Great answers so far, as usual from this group, aside from one brain fart that has since cleared :)

One other thing I'd be trying to accomplish given the current market circumstances would be trying to have as high a SWR as possible while also having as conservative an asset allocation as possible.  Bonds and annuities used to have such paltry yields that people rightfully ignored them, but that 'dependable income' is the thing you are trying to replace when you cease earning a paycheck.  Although your age typically has something like 80/20 equities/fixed income, maybe you could go 70/30 or 60/40 in ER?  The expected lifetime return would be lower, but sequence of return risk would be lower too, and you get stability from the rebalancing...  There's always a trade-off, but I'd have more confidence in my FIRE longevity if I had a significant income from Treasuries + TIPS.

FIREcalc has a nice Investigate tab where you can put in all your particulars (age, AA, SS, porfolio ER, etc.), then see how your AA affects your WR success rate.

What I usually do, because I'm well below historical SWR rates, is first use the Investigate tab to figure out a spending rate that is a little unsafe by solving for spending rate at a 95% success rate.  I then put that in for my spending, then solve for AA.  Usually extreme AAs have lower success rates and the middle has some sort of plateau.  I pick the highest stock AA that is consistent with that plateau.

What you'll tend to find is that, at least in historical terms, those dependable income sources get outstripped by inflation, especially on an after-tax basis (because you pay income taxes on nominal growth, not real growth), especially over longer time periods.  A 70/30 is only optimal for planning periods of about 10 years or so; 60/40 is probably even shorter - maybe 5 years?

I'm almost 54, been FIREd about 7 years, and for my FIRE portfolio I'm at 95/5 because I have a 36 year planning horizon.  Because I have more than I need, the excess is 100/0, so my overall is about 98/2.  But my net WR is about 1% so it's easier to be that aggressive on my AA.  That's even as I look at it as "maximally safe" given history, because I think the future will be at least as good as the past, if not a bit better.

Yeah, but a Year 2000 ER would've been improved by bond exposure (yielding about 5% back then)...  Instead a 100% equity ER is headed toward failure (i.e. less than 4% real returns...).  You can pick up that lively discussion starting here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/did-the-great-resignation-class-of-21-22-just-pick-the-worst-time-to-retire/msg3127295/#msg3127295

I've read the first five pages or so of the thread you linked to, and will likely read some of the rest.  Some of my thoughts:

1.  To riff on an old piece of literature, there's not much new under the sun.  Even when people think so or need to work out new ideas on their own.  I've been reading about and studying FIRE for over 25 years, and that thread and the thoughts in it are not at all new or novel.  For what it's worth, they're also fairly similar to posts circa 2002 and 2010 shortly after the previous market swoons.

2.  It is common for the current thoughts to be reactionary to recent history.  When the tech mania was going on, people were advocating up to 20% in employer stock; after the tech wreck, 5% if that was considered acceptable.  Similarly with emergency funds:  very necessary in 2002 and 2010 (and maybe now), a foolish waste of resource that could be invested in the market when it is going up and up and up.  Likewise with the safety of FIRE:  most but not all were touting risky threadbare FIRE plans in 2020; now in that linked thread many people are advocating for margin and multiple layers of safety. (*)

3.  Many people think it is possible to study and analyze and predict and weave and dodge and either avoid the worst or gain the best.  Generally speaking and with some possible exceptions, I do not think this is a productive on an after-tax, effort-adjusted, risk-adjusted basis.

I interpret your reply and points to be based on a combination of these three points.  I think you and I come down on opposite sides in each of these three areas, so I find your comments unpersuasive.  I wish you luck though, and will give you the last word if you like.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2023, 08:09:40 PM »
I don't have any counterargument, it's good to have a diversity of opinions.  I may go the reverse equity glidepath route in ER, once I retire and have more time to optimize.  I'm sure you and I will be just fine, you being at 1% SWR after a fortuitous SOR, and I'm FI but still enjoying working and saving, so we can play the game however we would like.  It doesn't even have to be optimal, as long as history is repeating, just an agreeable enough ride that it doesn't cause us to not stay the course. 

I was captivated by the OP's question though.  If I read you correctly, you believe we are past the worst of the equity drawdown this cycle and think a 4% SWR and 95/5 is fine for a late 30's ER?   
« Last Edit: March 27, 2023, 08:11:33 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

Ron Scott

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2023, 08:16:35 PM »
Many people think it is possible to study and analyze and predict and weave and dodge and either avoid the worst or gain the best.

Future returns cannot be predicted. Using historical data to predict 30-50 years out is truly foolish.

Investing in low-cost, broadly diversified, tax-efficient stocks and bonds, with a planned asset allocation strategy and a low WR in retirement is the best you can do. Assuming your real returns cover inflation seems reasonable. The rest just happens.

secondcor521

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2023, 08:34:00 PM »
If I read you correctly, you believe we are past the worst of the equity drawdown this cycle and think a 4% SWR and 95/5 is fine for a late 30's ER?

Oh, heavens no.  (I don't think I wrote either of those things...did I?)

I certainly hope that we're past the worst of the equity downturn in this cycle, but I don't actually know anything about the future.  My magic 8-ball is broken just like everyone else's.

And I think a 4% SWR and 95/5 is fine for me, but I'm almost 54 and am at a 1% actual net WR with boatloads of contingency plans.  Two belts, three suspenders, and a number of staples are holding up my metaphorical financial pants here.

My original point in my reply to you was that my preference is to base an AA on long periods of history, data, analysis, and one's facts and circumstances.  Rather than an emphasis on recent history or outliers or predictions of what the future might hold.

For a late 30s ER, I'd recommend the same methodology as in my previous reply, but the output would be much different for them because (a) a late 30s ER is about 15 years younger than me and thus would likely have a much longer planning horizon, and (b) most late 30s ER are unlikely to have a 1% actual net WR.  The late 30s ER also likely has a lot more uncertainty in their expense projections - they might still not have their final marital status or final number of offspring or clarity on their offspring's expenses.  They also have more income uncertainty as their career may or may not be in its final stages.  On the flip side, they arguably have more flexibility in terms of willingness and opportunity to go back to work than I do.

There's also all the other stuff in the other thread - how much they like/don't like their job, what backup plans they have, what non-portfolio income (like side gigs or pensions) they have, their particular view of history and whether they're an optimist or pessimist, etc. etc.

[In terms of terminology, when I write 1% actual net WR, that means that I spend (mostly) as I like right now, and after spending all of my non-portfolio income (which includes side gigs, rebates, refunds, and gifts), I actually spend about 1% of my FIRE stash.  Ostensibly I think it would be safe for me to spend up to 4% at my age; I just don't because there's not much I think I could spend on that would make me happier.  I'm a cheap date, so to speak.]
« Last Edit: March 27, 2023, 08:36:09 PM by secondcor521 »

VanillaGorilla

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2023, 09:10:31 PM »
If I read you correctly, you believe we are past the worst of the equity drawdown this cycle and think a 4% SWR and 95/5 is fine for a late 30's ER?

Oh, heavens no.  (I don't think I wrote either of those things...did I?)

Just for giggles, consider that a 3.3% withdrawal rate has a 100% to 99% success rate (depending on the details) for a 60 year horizon.

Then consider that the current market is trading 18% below the all time high.

That implies that a 3.3% WR at the market peak would be completely safe, which would translate roughly to 4.02% WR currently. And if you were buying assets over the last 15 months, that would push you a bit higher. So strictly speaking, a 4% WR at current valuations should be safe, unless late 2021 is worse than any other retirement cohort in history.

I'm keeping my job, currently. :) I like it, and the firehose of cash it provides.

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2023, 10:06:50 PM »
Thanks again for the reply secondcore, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, just trying to get the thread back on track...  our situations are pleasantly boring, I much prefer the challenge of what I would do in the OP's situation.  Of course, we will never have enough information to actually give them The Answer, hence talking as best we can about what 'we would do' in their shoes...

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2023, 12:37:56 AM »
The caveat with any answer to this is is that with 45-60 years likely still ahead of you, a 99% or even 95% historically safe wr is also going to almost certainly result in you kicking the bucket with more money than you ever had.

GilesMM

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Re: What SWR is safe in your late 30's?
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2023, 06:11:28 AM »
The caveat with any answer to this is is that with 45-60 years likely still ahead of you, a 99% or even 95% historically safe wr is also going to almost certainly result in you kicking the bucket with more money than you ever had.


The goal is normally to not run out of money.  If the goal is something different, like kicking the bucket with close to nothing, then a much higher SWR could be applied.  In reality, most people are flexible on their spending as they go.  The VPW is a good choice, for example.