What role has luck played in your financial success

[rob in cal]

I was listening to Dave Ramsey a few days ago and he was highly opposed to the argument that luck plays a  significant or predominant role in the success of wealthy people in today's US.  By luck he was referring, I believe, to cases of inherited income, a lucky business break that catapulted someone who would have otherwise been in the middle up to the ranks of the wealthy, winning the lottery, things like that.

What role has or has not luck played in your story?  In my case I was lucky to have found the delivery driver job I did when I did, as its in the top level of money per hour for such jobs.  Potentially I could have found a similar job for another restaurant and made about 30% less per hour, which if I had stayed in that direction would have meant much less savings, and much less future passive income.  Inherited money has also come in handy when my in laws have distributed funds to their daughters, one of whom is my wife. This has increased our assets by about 25%. 
A final case of luck was buying our house when we did, in 1998.  Had we waited just a few years, it would have cost substantially more.  Still, I believe we would still be on the right path finanacially without these breaks as even before then we were accumulating assets by living within our means.  So, some lucky breaks have merely accelerated the asset savings process.

[Jamesqf]

I think luck has a lot more to do with the particular path taken than with the ultimate destination.  As with the mega-rich: if Gates didn't do Microsoft, someone else would have done something similar, and they'd have the billions.

[Albert]

Depends how one defines luck. If very widely then of course 99.9%, if narrowly then maybe half that?

[amha]

Luck has played an enormous role---but not in the sense of making any lucky investments or being born into immense wealth. I'm immensely lucky to be born in the wealthiest country the world has ever known---all of us here are---and that explains almost all of my success. I've never had to suffer wars or political strife; I've never experienced economic collapse or hyperinflation; I had twelve years of excellent education for free. Everything else is trivial compared to that.

[Argyle]

Well, the United States is not the wealthiest country in the world, though we like to think we're the tops at everything.  We could definitely say we're lucky to be born as far up the rung as we were (however far that is) in a country that has such wealth disparity among the population.  Also incredibly lucky to be born in this era, with its medicine, leisure time, possibilties for self-direction, etc.

I was lucky to be born to frugal parents, to have selected a college that was ideal for me (I wasn't thinking that precisely, the choice was more or less luck), to have had certain jobs open up just when I was applying, etc.  I also benefit from a lot of external circumstances that I wouldn't call "luck" precisely but that are nothing to do with my own skills or powers -- that certain fields were booming when I went to get a job; that interest rates were high when I first had money to put in a bank account; that I have drivable streets and a stable infrastructure where I live; and so forth.

[Spork]

Luck has played an enormous role---but not in the sense of making any lucky investments or being born into immense wealth. I'm immensely lucky to be born in the wealthiest country the world has ever known---all of us here are---and that explains almost all of my success. I've never had to suffer wars or political strife; I've never experienced economic collapse or hyperinflation; I had twelve years of excellent education for free. Everything else is trivial compared to that.

This.  +1.  (Whether we are #1 or #10... doesn't matter to me... but "born in a wealthy country" makes a big difference.)

My number came up in "the vaginal lottery".  Had I been born in the 3rd world, I would sure like to think I'd do okay.... but that is probably a really big stretch.  And even then, "do okay" might mean "not starve".

[Cpa Cat]

Luck has played an enormous role---but not in the sense of making any lucky investments or being born into immense wealth. I'm immensely lucky to be born in the wealthiest country the world has ever known---all of us here are---and that explains almost all of my success. I've never had to suffer wars or political strife; I've never experienced economic collapse or hyperinflation; I had twelve years of excellent education for free. Everything else is trivial compared to that.

I disagree with this logic when discussing success. There are many people who are born into those same circumstances who never become successful. Making the best of the opportunities that are presented to you is not luck. I understand that your argument is: but for by "birthright," those circumstances never would have presented.

But how about this example: There a few Nigerian girls who escaped recently when 200 of their classmates were kidnapped and presumably killed or sold into slavery. What if someone in the USA feels sorry for one of those girls, gives them a full ride to Harvard, where she invents a world-changing technology and becomes a billionaire. Would you say her success is 99% luck-based, because she was lucky to be born in Nigeria, kidnapped, lucky to have escaped, lucky to have drawn media attention when others did not, lucky to have gone to Harvard?

And by your logic, are only our successes due to luck? Since we're born in one of the richest, opportunity-filled countries in the world, when we reach for an opportunity and fail, it must be entirely our fault but when we succeed it's because we're lucky?

Does this mean people aren't allowed to be proud of their accomplishments, because after all, they didn't die from malaria as a toddler - so really it's all down to luck?

[ender]

As someone relatively young, if (or perhaps when) I ultimately am at FI it will be primarily because of several things:

• I don't enjoy stuff
• I enjoy and take the time to research/determine optimal strategies for life*
• I am passionately committed to conforming my life to my values

The root causes of these are unknown to me. My brothers, who otherwise more or less have had the same "luck" as me from a worldly perspective, show no interest in a similar MMM type lifestyle.

*as a graduate student I wanted to make the most of my coming transition to working fulltime. As a result, I took Financial Peace University, got involved on Boglehead forums and ended up here.

Is it luck I even cared about stewardship of my finances in the first place... ? Is it luck I choose to not blow my income and instead prefer delayed gratification.... ?


One thing's for sure regardless - there are a heck of a lot of people in the same "life lottery" position who will not enjoy the lifestyle I currently, and hopefully eventually, enjoy.

[t-rymz]

The best I've ever heard it put is:

As a young person, it's all me. I'm responsible for my own successes and failures. For chasing my dreams, finding my jobs, working my way, starting my companies, building my dreams. It's not luck; it's work. If I know where I want to go, it's up to me and my work to get there.

But as a somewhat older person, I look back on all of the mentors who I was fortunate to have to ask for advice. I look at the lucky breaks that my parents bought me, the schooling and networks I had, the opportunities given me, and the help people offered. I'm not so sure anymore if it's all me. It seems like luck played a bigger role. I'm more humble.

[ArbitraryGuy]

The world is much more nuanced than the polar views of "it's all luck" or "it's all hard work."  Circumstance is very important, but one's actions given the circumstance are also very important. 

I happened to have fairly fortuitous circumstances and (I feel) have acted in a way to capitalize on those circumstances to earn my freedom.  Some people have favorable circumstances (even moreso than mine), but utilize them towards other ends (e.g., consumption).  On the other hand, some people find themselves in poor circumstances and despite those, work and act to overcome them.  Others in poor circumstances and are unable to overcome them (for a variety of reasons).

[HSLmom]

I'm lucky that for whatever reason (genetics? environment?) I'm able to make lemonade out of lemons pretty easily.  I wouldn't be able to be a high wage earner if I constantly made excuses or gave up easily. 

[bacchi]

Besides winning the location-birth lottery, I've been lucky that:

I was born in a time where I can be somewhat of a slacker and still earn a lot of money. This is due to my skills and interests lining up with the increased demand in tech. Consistent employment with only 2 wks/yr vacation would drive me to drink.

I haven't had any serious health issues that might've cratered employment or finances.

I left college and grad school with no debt.

I bought a house in a sketchy neighborhood, where my friends were wary of going after dark, and the neighborhood turned into the hippest place in town. The 40x FHA leverage is huge.

My parents constantly told me to "save half" when I got my first job.

[Emilyngh]

Luck has had a great impact.   I have wisely used the advantages I've had, but without them I'd be nowhere.

The largest lucky factors are the country and family I've been born into.   I was lucky to be born in such a wealthy country to an upper-middle class family.   B/c of this I've had the opportunity for a great education (with no debt), which has then opened doors for me for great jobs, which I used to get my financial footing and put me in such a great current spot.   

I also had great example and frugal values modeled to me by my family, and still to this day I have the safety net of a financially well-off family.   I know that even if I lose my job and all assets I could get an interest-free loan and/or have a place to stay.    And while I hope I don't get it in a very, very long time, one day my assets will be bumped by a sizeable inheritance.

With that all acknowledged, I have not squandered what I have.

[PKFFW]

Success in life, I think, is a combination of luck and taking advantage of that luck.

There are countless circumstances where "luck" plays a part and you don't even know it.  Maybe you avoided a car crash on the way to work one morning, maybe that person you made a huge deal with got laid last night and was in a good mood that morning, maybe you saw a particular movie that influenced your choice of career in a direction you would not have thought of, the list can go on and on and on.

It's nice to think that our success is all done to our own hard work.  That we made it through sweat, blood and tears and that our circumstances played no part.  I just don't think that is true.  Hard work, sweat, blood and tears are all important but there are plenty of people out there who work just as hard as any of us who never quite make it.  Survivorship bias would have us believe no one has worked as hard as the successful people, otherwise they would be just as successful, but it just isn't the case.

[chasesfish]

Luck has played an enormous role---but not in the sense of making any lucky investments or being born into immense wealth. I'm immensely lucky to be born in the wealthiest country the world has ever known---all of us here are---and that explains almost all of my success. I've never had to suffer wars or political strife; I've never experienced economic collapse or hyperinflation; I had twelve years of excellent education for free. Everything else is trivial compared to that.

+1.  This is the most accurate statement out there.

After that very lucky break we got (what, only 5% of the world's population lives in the US?), the rest is simple - Work hard, take initiative, and people will notice.

[lb]

I'm super lucky I got into nursing school when I did, in 2009, which was very competitive during the economic downturn. I'm also super lucky I got a job in a great hospital 2 months after graduating in 2012 after applying to hundreds of job postings and making an income 6 times what I was making as a barista. I'm super SUPER lucky I met my husband in one on my elective classes and that he turned out to be incredibly frugal (as well as awesome in other ways). I'm also super lucky I stumbled on this money blog and decided to become frugal on my own without him needing to talk me into it. I love feeling lucky about my life, it makes me feel so grateful every day!

[deborah]

Please take the following not as a rant about sexism, but as how luck played a part in changing the ingrained attitudes that were prevalent when I was young. I don't want the thread to go off track!

Yes - I was born in "the Lucky Country" (not the US). I was lucky to go to University when I did - it was made free the year I went, and if not for that I would not have gone - after all, I was a girl, and at that time just over 30% of Uni students were girls.

But I think that comments people made have been real turning points for me. It was expected that women wouldn't be financially independent - for instance, at my first "real" job the Head of HR said to me that there was no point in me joining the company superannuation scheme because I was a woman (and I took his advice).

Over time I became what would today be a Network Administrator, and I got a trainee. He was into "wheeling and dealing", and was trying to drum up interest from a mate in providing capital for a new venture. His mate looked toward me and said - why not ask Deborah. He replied - she wouldn't have any more than $xxx - and he named about half my savings - but the remark really annoyed me. What was my trainee doing looking down on me! That remark really got me thinking. I put together a 5 year plan and bought a house (single women didn't buy houses, so it was rather nerve racking), got my license, and really leaped forward financially. If not for that one statement, I would have gone on like I was for years. Sure, I was saving - I always had, but it was in a bank account, loosing value all the time. My little green workers had definitely not been working!

The next piece of luck was being retrenched from that job. I got a payout - not much by today's standards, but part of the package was an hour's financial training. It got me thinking, and I had the foundation of my stash. In my next job, I joined superannuation because I realized that I should have been in it from the start.

If neither of these things had happened, I would not be retired early today.

[SnackDog]

If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all.

I don't know anyone who has had unusually good luck in the stock market, casino or lottery.  I do know quite a few people who inherited large sums of money (tens of millions) but most of them have had sort of miserable lives: squabbling with siblings, disappointing their parents, feel unmotivated, or wondering what they are supposed to do with their lives.

[Letj]

The world is much more nuanced than the polar views of "it's all luck" or "it's all hard work."  Circumstance is very important, but one's actions given the circumstance are also very important. 

I happened to have fairly fortuitous circumstances and (I feel) have acted in a way to capitalize on those circumstances to earn my freedom.  Some people have favorable circumstances (even moreso than mine), but utilize them towards other ends (e.g., consumption).  On the other hand, some people find themselves in poor circumstances and despite those, work and act to overcome them.  Others in poor circumstances and are unable to overcome them (for a variety of reasons).

And that post my friends is the answer to the question. I could not have said it better.

[CarDude]

Luck has played an enormous role---but not in the sense of making any lucky investments or being born into immense wealth. I'm immensely lucky to be born in the wealthiest country the world has ever known---all of us here are---and that explains almost all of my success. I've never had to suffer wars or political strife; I've never experienced economic collapse or hyperinflation; I had twelve years of excellent education for free. Everything else is trivial compared to that.

Pretty much nails it.

[Jamesqf]

I didn't choose my gender,  my race, my IQ, my health.   I didn't choose to be free from addiction to drugs or alcohol.   I didn't choose to be tall and good looking,  nor did I select a Catholic School.

Have to call BS on quite a bit of that.  You do, to a certain extent, choose IQ and health.  You may have a base that's handed to you by genetics, but you can move up or down from that base as the result of choices you make.  And addiction is 100% choice.

For much of the rest, there seems to be a basic fallacy at work in many of the comments: the idea that you somehow still would be you if you were born somewhere else.

[RetiredAt63]

"Fortune favors the prepared mind"

But there is also luck - I was lucky to be born in Canada at a time when women's roles were changing.  University education for women in many areas of the Sciences was still rare when I went to University, but I was able to study what interested me, not what I was "supposed" to study.

Other things are happenstance - if I had not taken the job I did after graduation, what job would I have taken and what would that have done to my life?  We can never know the alternate paths our live would have taken.  I wish SF were true about alternate universes, I would love to see what my life would have been like if I had chosen differently at a few key times in my life.

[Gray Matter]

And addiction is 100% choice.

I would strongly encourage you to read some research on this subject and try to open your mind to a more balanced view of addiction.  That does not mean people do not need to be held accountable for their behavior and the consequences of it, but a more compassionate perspective of their struggles might be warranted.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/topics-in-brief/genetics-addiction
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/
http://thecanyonmalibu.com/drug-addiction/genetic/

[samburger]

Luck has played an enormous role---but not in the sense of making any lucky investments or being born into immense wealth. I'm immensely lucky to be born in the wealthiest country the world has ever known---all of us here are---and that explains almost all of my success. I've never had to suffer wars or political strife; I've never experienced economic collapse or hyperinflation; I had twelve years of excellent education for free. Everything else is trivial compared to that.

Pretty much nails it.

This, plus I'm white, I have what Americans refer to as "no accent," and I come from a nice affluent white Jewish family that equipped me the culture capital one needs to access wealth and power in this country.

In other words, I'm privileged as shit. I benefit enormously from racial, class, cultural, and gender prejudices. I've made smart choices on top of that, but that only augments my privilege. It's doesn't create it.

[BlueHouse]

I’ve always considered myself to be pretty lucky, but looking through these responses, I see a common thread of resilient people with positive outlooks. 

A lot of good luck seems to stem from making changes after experiencing a negative event (or what some might call bad luck).

I like to attribute much of my recent success to luck, but my friends remind me I worked very hard to prepare myself for when opportunities presented.  I still work harder than most people think I do.  I’m known as a hard worker at the office, but I’m also a closet learner (I watch webinars at night and on lunch) and I take vacation time to attend industry meetings (and make connections for the next job). 

There are a lot of events that I could point to and call them bad luck and dwell on them, but my personality (and that of many successful people) is one that lets me move quickly past setbacks and focus on the next thing.  For instance, one of the best things that ever happened to me was getting fired without cause -- I ended up on a different path that ended with me working for myself and increasing my income by 500% within 2 years. 

[Jamesqf]

And addiction is 100% choice.

I would strongly encourage you to read some research on this subject and try to open your mind to a more balanced view of addiction.  That does not mean people do not need to be held accountable for their behavior and the consequences of it, but a more compassionate perspective of their struggles might be warranted.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/topics-in-brief/genetics-addiction
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/
http://thecanyonmalibu.com/drug-addiction/genetic/

I would encourage you to reflect on the fact that your sources of information either have obvious political motivations, or are making a lot of money from their addiction-treatment business.

Even granted that everything in those links is true, though, it's still a choice.  It's perfectly possible to choose to go through life without ever taking a drink, or using drugs.  It's likewise perfectly possible to choose to stop using them once you've started.  It may not be exactly easy to follow through on such choices, but so what?  Life's full of difficult choices.

[Jamesqf]

This, plus I'm white, I have what Americans refer to as "no accent," and I come from a nice affluent white Jewish family that equipped me the culture capital one needs to access wealth and power in this country.

Yet I could point you to any number of people who have achieved equal or greater success despite being non-white, having accents, coming from impoverished backgrounds, etc.  I likewise expect that I could find some of equally 'privileged' birth that wound up being miserable failures.  So it seems that your luck in being born to whatever situation is far from being the most important factor.

[samburger]

This, plus I'm white, I have what Americans refer to as "no accent," and I come from a nice affluent white Jewish family that equipped me the culture capital one needs to access wealth and power in this country.

Yet I could point you to any number of people who have achieved equal or greater success despite being non-white, having accents, coming from impoverished backgrounds, etc.  I likewise expect that I could find some of equally 'privileged' birth that wound up being miserable failures.  So it seems that your luck in being born to whatever situation is far from being the most important factor.

Of course racial and class privilege is not the only factor, nor is it totalizing. I'm genderqueer, which isn't exactly an enormous source of privilege, but I'm enormously privileged anyway.

But I'm not going debate with you about whether racism, sexism, and classism is real. We can't both fit our heads up your ass, after all.

[Tyler]

Ramsey is willfully blind or ignorant.   

Nah -- he's just saying what will be most helpful to his target audience.  His typical listener is in huge debt and is looking for a way out, and his goal is to motivate them to take responsibility for their own financial situations.  Attributing success to luck runs the risk of letting the complainypants in the audience off the hook for their own choices.

[samburger]

Ramsey is willfully blind or ignorant.   

Nah -- he's just saying what will be most helpful to his target audience.  His typical listener is in huge debt and is looking for a way out, and his goal is to motivate them to take responsibility for their own financial situations.  Attributing success to luck runs the risk of letting the complainypants in the audience off the hook for their own choices.

This is an excellent point. The far-left communities I roll in LOATHE Ramsey and even MMM because they don't address problems like the cycle of poverty. But criticizing them on those grounds misses the point: Ramsey argues that we shouldn't rely on luck because if you're $100,000 in debt, being white and a cis dude isn't going to take care of your problems for you.

[God or Mammon?]

Psychologists have proven that happiness is highly dependent on perceived status within one's peer group, which is why citizens of impoverished 3rd world countries are not really any less happy than Americans on average.  Almost everyone would rather be in the top 10% of a society, even with a lower standard of living, than in the bottom 10% with a higher one.

So I think the whole 'birth lottery' thinking due to being born in a rich country is incorrect - the class level you are born into in any given peer group is much more important.

And yet I am pretty sure that anyone who has read this blog and forum and has taken action and made a conscious decision to change her life for the better is not benefiting from 'luck', so I would say that almost anyone who makes a conscious decision to improve and is happier for it can attribute 0% of the 'happiness' to luck; the extent that one's actual financial success (and how one defines that exactly) in aggregate comes from forces outside of his control is debatable

[Gray Matter]

And addiction is 100% choice.

I would strongly encourage you to read some research on this subject and try to open your mind to a more balanced view of addiction.  That does not mean people do not need to be held accountable for their behavior and the consequences of it, but a more compassionate perspective of their struggles might be warranted.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/topics-in-brief/genetics-addiction
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/
http://thecanyonmalibu.com/drug-addiction/genetic/

I would encourage you to reflect on the fact that your sources of information either have obvious political motivations, or are making a lot of money from their addiction-treatment business.

Even granted that everything in those links is true, though, it's still a choice.  It's perfectly possible to choose to go through life without ever taking a drink, or using drugs.  It's likewise perfectly possible to choose to stop using them once you've started.  It may not be exactly easy to follow through on such choices, but so what?  Life's full of difficult choices.

So that would be a "no" to the balance and compassion, then?  ;-)

Though good scientific research actually sets out to disprove a hypothesis, not prove one, you make a valid point about thinking critically about the source of the information.  Publications and sites that distill research/information for consumers certainly cherry pick and often misinterpret, overgeneralize, or twist results.  And researchers are human and are subconsciously or consciously influenced by things like funding, authority, bias, politics, etc.   

Even with that, the research I have seen from disparate sources suggests that there are factors at play in addiction beyond individual choice and free will.  There is also interesting brain research emerging that challenges some of our very American views on free will.  Your "100% choice" conviction is an absolute stance that is perplexing to me.  It also leaves no room for discussions such as this, so I suppose I am just wasting both our time, huh?

One question, and I am honestly interested in the answer to this (not trying to make a point):  Are you at all grateful for your ability to make good choices where others don't seem able to, or do you believe everybody has the same ability to make good choices and some just don't?

[iwasjustwondering]

I'd say it's a lot of luck.  They say that luck is what happens to people who work hard, and a lot of my lucky breaks came about because I had worked hard in one way or another.  But then there's just plain luck that I didn't deserve any more than anyone else.  I was lucky not to have been born in North Korea, where the government appears to exist solely to torment its citizens.

I have a high IQ, so despite not working very hard in high school, I was able to get a full-tuition academic scholarship and put myself through college.  I was able to get into a top-tier grad school, and eventually make good money through my writing skills.  I was recently able to talk my way into an adjunct position at a major university, and was able to teach the class reasonably well. 

I also have tons of energy and I'm ambitious and optimistic.  When I lived in Ireland, there was 18% unemployment and I was an illegal alien.  Employers would risk significant fines to hire me.  But I just kept knocking on doors and got a job.  That drive to keep knocking on doors is part in-born temperament and partly my own will.  My industry is volatile, and if I lose my job, I am setting up adjunct work as a fall-back to pay the bills, or possibly as a good second career.  So in one sense that's luck, in another it's good planning and hard work.

I'd say it's a combination, but really, if you consider the people living in North Korea right now, it's got to be at least 80% luck.

 

[BPA]

I am lucky that I was born in the country I was and that I was intelligent enough to attend university and get the job I did as a result. 

Also, I feel lucky that I was poor growing up and know that I can live quite happily on a lot less than what others might consider livable.

[Tyler]

My two-cents:

It's absolutely true that no two people in the world are presented with equal opportunities over their lifetimes.  And many people are burdened with struggles not borne by others.  One can attribute the distribution of these things to luck if they like.  I prefer to think of the opportunities you are given as blessings. 

Regardless, success is not determined by what opportunities you are or are not blessed with, but what you choose to do with them.  People who win the lottery or make millions in professional sports but quickly flame out into bankruptcy were lucky but not financially successful.  Those born into poverty or institutional racism who go on to become great leaders are arguably unlucky but highly successful. 

IMHO, people too often look at the success of others and focus on their circumstances rather than their choices.  Two people given equal opportunities can still end up in very different places based on their choices.  And in the long run, an unlucky person who consistently makes good choices will generally do quite well compared to a lucky person who always makes poor ones. 

[taekvideo]

Luck is pretty huge, just given our starting positions as better than some 90% of the world's population.
But I think effort and discipline are even bigger... since something like 95% of those in similar starting positions are financial failures.

[waltworks]

Without defining "success", it's hard to make any sense of the question, but it should be pretty obvious that luck and work are BOTH necessary conditions of most types of success in life. Bad luck can negate any amount of skill, daring, or determination - you can get hit by a car just as you come up with a way to make fusion power practical. On the other hand, you can win the lottery and be broke again in a matter of months.

There are plenty of rags-to-riches stories out there but there are also probably a thousand times more hard-working, smart people who were born in a crappy place and never got the chances that would have let them make it. Even in the US, if you graduated college in 1995, you could get all kinds of great jobs. In 2010? WAAAY harder, with the same moxie and smarts.

The other thing to remember, I think, is that humility is a good attitude no matter how badass your life is. I know I have a lot of people to thank and got more than my share of lucky breaks.

-W

[RootofGood]

It was pretty important in us reaching FI.  We do have a luck making machine, after all. 

[momo5]

This, plus I'm white, I have what Americans refer to as "no accent," and I come from a nice affluent white Jewish family that equipped me the culture capital one needs to access wealth and power in this country.

Yet I could point you to any number of people who have achieved equal or greater success despite being non-white, having accents, coming from impoverished backgrounds, etc.  I likewise expect that I could find some of equally 'privileged' birth that wound up being miserable failures.  So it seems that your luck in being born to whatever situation is far from being the most important factor.

Of course racial and class privilege is not the only factor, nor is it totalizing. I'm genderqueer, which isn't exactly an enormous source of privilege, but I'm enormously privileged anyway.

But I'm not going debate with you about whether racism, sexism, and classism is real. We can't both fit our heads up your ass, after all.

thanks for that visual.

[bacchi]

It was pretty important in us reaching FI.  We do have a luck making machine, after all.

Yep, it's a Just World after all.

[Jamesqf]

One question, and I am honestly interested in the answer to this (not trying to make a point):  Are you at all grateful for your ability to make good choices where others don't seem able to, or do you believe everybody has the same ability to make good choices and some just don't?

The latter, because I honestly can't see any way in which I am genetically all that much above average, nor how my upbringing would have created much of a superior ability to make choices.  (Indeed, I think if anything it should have driven me in just the opposite direction.)  And quite apart from the personal, that's what I see when I look at the world around me: people making choices.

It's obvious, though, that a lot of people would prefer to think otherwise, perhaps because then they don't have to blame themselves, or can ascribe others' success to some sort of privilege.  Just look at how this thread has been derailed into a (meaningless, IMHO) discussion of birth circumstances, when it would be much more useful to look at how far people have gotten from wherever they started, and what skills helped or hindered them along the way.

Bad luck can negate any amount of skill, daring, or determination - you can get hit by a car just as you come up with a way to make fusion power practical.

But getting hit by a car is not entirely a matter of luck.  If you choose to live in Manhattan and walk while texting, cross against the light, &c, your odds of getting hit are going to be way higher than the average. 

[Gray Matter]

One question, and I am honestly interested in the answer to this (not trying to make a point):  Are you at all grateful for your ability to make good choices where others don't seem able to, or do you believe everybody has the same ability to make good choices and some just don't?

The latter, because I honestly can't see any way in which I am genetically all that much above average, nor how my upbringing would have created much of a superior ability to make choices.  (Indeed, I think if anything it should have driven me in just the opposite direction.)  And quite apart from the personal, that's what I see when I look at the world around me: people making choices.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question and explain your perspective.  This is what I believe they call an "irreconcilable difference" in our beliefs, so I agree, no point in discussing it further.

[waltworks]

But getting hit by a car is not entirely a matter of luck.  If you choose to live in Manhattan and walk while texting, cross against the light, &c, your odds of getting hit are going to be way higher than the average.

Fair enough, let's say getting an inoperable brain tumor at age 4 then, or something, so that you never get to come up with your great idea. For crying out loud, you think you can control *everything*? You'd be posting here if you were born infected with AIDS in Somalia, if you just buckled down and worked hard?

-W

[swiper]

But getting hit by a car is not entirely a matter of luck.  If you choose to live in Manhattan and walk while texting, cross against the light, &c, your odds of getting hit are going to be way higher than the average.

Fair enough, let's say getting an inoperable brain tumor at age 4 then, or something, so that you never get to come up with your great idea. For crying out loud, you think you can control *everything*? You'd be posting here if you were born infected with AIDS in Somalia, if you just buckled down and worked hard?

-W

Dude, that Somali got nothin on our James: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/living-off-of-other-people's-work/msg79027/#msg79027 ... wait the AIDS part, hmmm well now i just don't know!

Seriously though, as was stated earlier in this thread: luck got me the opportunities, I just didn't fuck them up too bad.

 

[Blindsquirrel]

seriously though, as was stated earlier in this thread: luck got me the opportunities, I just didn't fuck them up too bad.

  Welp, that pretty much sums up my situation. I F'd up many things a couple of them were nearly lethal.  I was born with wise, married parents in the USA, bright enough to get academic scholarships to a great B1G university, married a very smart spouse. Have my health and and more wealth than I ever imagined. Very, very lucky in the grand scheme of things. Several good friends are dead from wars, addictions, rotten luck, rotten genetics already and I am only middle aged. Having seen how many folks  start in 3rd world countries where if you were not born in a family with a refrigerator, your chances of owning one someday are not very good, I count my self as very, very lucky. In the 7 billion or so folks in the world, if you can read this on the internet, on your own computer, in your dwelling with a fridge, count yourself lucky. Just my opinion.

[randymarsh]

I technically haven't had financial success yet because my net worth is hugely negative from student loans, but I'd say having parents that encouraged college is one kind of luck that has/will benefit me.

Growing up, we didn't have a ton of money but in our house college was always a when, not an if. Both of my parents did OK, especially for not having college degrees, but we were much more secure once they went back to school. They knew I'd have a much easier time securing a middle class lifestyle if I finished my bachelor's quickly after HS.

So they cosigned loans, paid for AP and ACT tests, paid for living expenses and in general set the expectation that I would finish. Plus they were "available". Meaning I could get their advice on changing majors or a copy of a tax form for the FAFSA.

A lot of those things were the result of their hard work and sacrifices, but me receiving the rewards is lucky, right? You can't pick your parents after all.

[mxt0133]

From a first generation US immigrant perspective, being born in a third world country I certainly don't feel like I won the birth lottery.  I wasn't even born into a third world level middle class family.  I was born into parent that worked their asses off to achieve their goals.  They worked and saved until they had enough money to send my mom to the US to work and  earn permanent residency.   After years of not seeing my mom and knowing the sacrifice she made we never took anything for granted.  We were poor poor but never took government aid because we felt like we were living the good life.  My parents at one point had 5 jobs between the both of them to provide for necessities and some luxuries for us, like basic cable and an extra pair of shoes.

As I was growing up I started to realize that I was educational, economically, and socially behind my most of my relatives and friends.  What I did learn from my parents was that it did not matter, what mattered was how much grit one had.  I leaned that you really can't fail if you don't quit.  I don't take for granted some of the opportunities that have been presented to me, but it was up to me to be able to take advantage of those opportunities.  You don't just magically get into a good school, you actually had to apply and have the 'right' background for the admission committee to even consider you, after that then yes I guess there is a certain amount of luck that goes into choosing hundreds of identical candidates.

Just like most of us who first encountered MMM's blog, most people dismiss it but some of us can see the potential and actually work to change our current behavior no matter how difficult or counter culture it is.  That's not lucky in my book.

[MrsPete]

I suspect everyone on this board has had a good bit of luck, and that seems to be the predominant opinion.  To illustrate the benefits of birth-luck, I'm thinking of two kids who are in my class right now: 

- One of my students has a serious degenerative muscular disease and is in a wheelchair.  He can walk short distances but cannot really function without the chair.  His hands basically have no strength.  In spite of having a slightly above average IQ, he cannot write legibly and needs help to use the toilet.  He has a one-on-one helper to get him through the school day.  He will never drive.  His ability to work as an adult will be severely limited -- and it was just bad luck.  Neither you nor I did anything better than he did, and we should be grateful for our healthy bodies. 

- Another of my students works sooooo hard in class, and she still consistently runs in the lower 25% in terms of grades.  She does every assignment, jumps on every bit of extra credit, and really, really tries . . . But she still writes like a middle schooler and doesn't comprehend what she reads.  It breaks my heart that she genuinely thinks she's going to be a Registered Nurse.  The truth is that the girl is just not smart.  She's a nice girl, but she won't ever have a college degree -- not even an Associate Degree.  It's just beyond her ability level.  Again, that could have been either you or me.  Okay, perhaps her parents didn't provide books, crafts, association with nature, and other things to enhance her IQ when she was young, but that something that happened (or didn't) when she was still too young to make her own choices. 

[BlueHouse]

Bad luck can negate any amount of skill, daring, or determination - you can get hit by a car just as you come up with a way to make fusion power practical.

But getting hit by a car is not entirely a matter of luck.  If you choose to live in Manhattan and walk while texting, cross against the light, &c, your odds of getting hit are going to be way higher than the average.

I actually was hit by a car a few months ago in a freak accident and while most people who hear the entire story think it's gruesome and that someone must have had it in for me that day, having the positive disposition means that I consider myself quite lucky in that I survived it without far greater injuries. Another quarter inch and my ribs would have started to crack. Another inch and a piece of metal may have pierced my heart. I also thought it was extremely lucky that I work with my brain instead of my body and I could return to work much faster than I would have if the ability to walk was required. I was also very fortunate that my clients allowed me to work from home during much of my recuperation. As for permanent injury, I consider myself extremely lucky that I can walk without help.

Yes, it was bad luck to get hit and bad luck that my knees will never be the same and bad luck that cartilage was damaged such that I will probably never be completely pain free. But i was born into a family with hope that things get better and was told to always look on the bright side. I think That positive outlook has been drilled into me so deeply that I can't Not look at the bright side and know that I can overcome any challenge. I don't think everyone has that outlook and many people would choose to become a victim and go on disability. 

Bottom line is that some people take good or bad luck and turn it into advantage and some wallow and externalizer it such that they believe they can't affect their own future.

[MrsPete]

Bad luck can negate any amount of skill, daring, or determination - you can get hit by a car just as you come up with a way to make fusion power practical.

But getting hit by a car is not entirely a matter of luck.  If you choose to live in Manhattan and walk while texting, cross against the light, &c, your odds of getting hit are going to be way higher than the average.

I actually was hit by a car a few months ago in a freak accident and while most people who hear the entire story think it's gruesome and that someone must have had it in for me that day, having the positive disposition means that I consider myself quite lucky in that I survived it without far greater injuries. Another quarter inch and my ribs would have started to crack. Another inch and a piece of metal may have pierced my heart. I also thought it was extremely lucky that I work with my brain instead of my body and I could return to work much faster than I would have if the ability to walk was required. I was also very fortunate that my clients allowed me to work from home during much of my recuperation. As for permanent injury, I consider myself extremely lucky that I can walk without help.

Yes, it was bad luck to get hit and bad luck that my knees will never be the same and bad luck that cartilage was damaged such that I will probably never be completely pain free. But i was born into a family with hope that things get better and was told to always look on the bright side. I think That positive outlook has been drilled into me so deeply that I can't Not look at the bright side and know that I can overcome any challenge. I don't think everyone has that outlook and many people would choose to become a victim and go on disability. 

Bottom line is that some people take good or bad luck and turn it into advantage and some wallow and externalizer it such that they believe they can't affect their own future.

I'd point out too that you were fortunate to have this accident AFTER you were already established professionally.  Your clients already know you and are willing to work with you.  If this same thing had happened at 16, you would've had a much harder time establishing yourself. 

It'd be wrong to deny the effects of luck -- just as it would be wrong to deny that hard work is essential to success.