What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?

[Metalcat]

I essentially like the FIRE concept—I LOVE FI as a personal goal—and see values in ER for many people.

I do not like 3 things I read frequently, that I don’t think need to be part of the equation at all:

1. The need for some to claim FIRE is an intrinsically better lifestyle than other approaches. It’s a big world with lotsa choices. FIREds are not the chosen ones.

2. Similar to 1 in some ways, aligning FIRE with things like environmentalism, and claiming FIRE is saving the planet. It’s not.

3. Finally, I don’t love the hurry-up-and-FIRE need for speed…and related comments about how working longer is wasting precious time during which you could be retired. Living a very frugal lifestyle to amass a frugal number, and immediately retiring, forcing yourself to continue living a very frugal lifestyle for the rest of your days? Not feeling it.

Re: number 3 that's because you are not inherently frugal. There's no reason to pursue frugality if is not your jam unless you have something short term like knocking out debt.

I would describe myself as highly focused on value—bang for buck; a DIYer; and intent on living below by means…nowhere near 4%. But i am no monk.

But more to my point, i don’t see the value for a young person in determining at, say 35, whether they'll want to be semi locked-in to a frugal lifestyle when they turn 55 or 60. Perspectives can really change and the net effect of deciding early to live frugally could very well place him in the same position as an undersaver later in life.

Which is why extremely few people actually ever ever retire at 35 with very low savings numbers.

Retiring in your 30s on an extremely low budget is in no way any kind of "orthodoxy" here. Most folks are more like you Ron, high earners, high savers, who typically work well into their 40s and 50s, retire with 7 figures (usually multiple), and have sub 4% withdrawal rates.

If anything, exactly how you retired is the orthodoxy around here, and very young, very frugal retirees are the exception.

I struggle to even think of a half dozen members who retired in their 30s with very frugal budgets. And those I can think of retired a long time ago and report back pretty regularly that they're in great financial shape.

Because even the extremely frugal folks tend to be very conservative with their retirement plans, so a bunch of them have 'stache's that have continued to grow over the years, lowering their long term risk even if they do need to spend more later in life.

Because folks here typically aren't stupid.

[Ron Scott]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

[Metalcat]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

[tj]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

[Metalcat]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

It happens, but I think I can think of, like, 2 members in my many years here, and they're both doing really well financially.

[curious_george]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

It happens, but I think I can think of, like, 2 members in my many years here, and they're both doing really well financially.

I almost feel like this is a challenge now to retire in 2 years and make sure I don't have any earned income for 20 years, so you can say you know 3 people here who did it. lol :-P

[tj]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

It happens, but I think I can think of, like, 2 members in my many years here, and they're both doing really well financially.

I almost feel like this is a challenge now to retire in 2 years and make sure I don't have any earned income for 20 years, so you can say you know 3 people here who did it. lol :-P

Exactly... because it would be a challenge to do. I think it would be very hard for most people to live a life of leisure perpetually while mindlessly drawing down their portfolio even during the bad times? Almost Nobody lives like that. Even if you are really, really lazy, you'll probably want to do something eventually that might turn into an income stream even if it's accidental.

Even people with massive trust funds don't tend to go their whole lives with no earned income.

[bluecollarmusician]

I essentially like the FIRE concept—I LOVE FI as a personal goal—and see values in ER for many people.

I do not like 3 things I read frequently, that I don’t think need to be part of the equation at all:

1. The need for some to claim FIRE is an intrinsically better lifestyle than other approaches. It’s a big world with lotsa choices. FIREds are not the chosen ones.

2. Similar to 1 in some ways, aligning FIRE with things like environmentalism, and claiming FIRE is saving the planet. It’s not.

3. Finally, I don’t love the hurry-up-and-FIRE need for speed…and related comments about how working longer is wasting precious time during which you could be retired. Living a very frugal lifestyle to amass a frugal number, and immediately retiring, forcing yourself to continue living a very frugal lifestyle for the rest of your days? Not feeling it.

Fwiw, I don't find any of these are core orthodoxy- perhaps confusion comes from the fact the the possibility of FIRE is a sort of automatic by-product  if you live a Thoreau inspired minimalist life.  Most who go that route don't do it for FIRE, like most who choose to be vegan have an ethical element.  They are also vegetarian- but people choose to be vegetarian for many reasons, while to go the next step and become vegan usually requires an ethical/moral nudge.  The high percentage of folks who believe there is an ethical element to anything they are doing will tend to have the viewpoint that they are "enlightened" and FIRE may have a higher representation of that population due to the lowering of the bar to attaining FIRE by eschewing consumerism.  I don't think many people say that "FIRE" is intrinsically better than lots of other options, however many who feel ethically compelled to live a certain lifestyle and "save the planet" are possibly over-represented in the FIRE crowd. To say it another way, people don't save the planet by FIRE-ing, but they may be many of the people who are trying to save the planet.

Regarding #3- that sort of "Bro-inspired" BS is an unfortunate by-product of anything that makes its way even marginally to the mainstream.  Goodhart's law comes to mind- the measuring sticks/back of the napkin math for attaining a nominal FIRE worked great when you hiked the trail yourself.  The hurry-up and attain #x by age #y is just a fad, that involves not really attaining the knowledge required to successfully FIRE- there's a lot more knowledge and understanding required to live off assets than just "hitting numbers."

[bluecollarmusician]

I almost feel like this is a challenge now to retire in 2 years and make sure I don't have any earned income for 20 years, so you can say you know 3 people here who did it. lol :-P

I think it would be more challenging than you realize- the mind and skillsets that are required to be ready to FIRE make it almost impossible to not earn accidental money just by living your life productively.

Being somewhat anti-consumer makes you almost by default a "producer."

Producers create capital.  It's really pretty simple.  MMM found out he made a lot more money after he quit his job.  I am having a similar experience.  I think a lot of others do as well.

edited for a caveat: if your idea of FIRE is to consume a lot more, YMMV- but that would be contrary to the core orthodoxy of FIRE. 
Actually, now that I think about it- this is part of the big disagreement with concerns over how FIRE works.  I you want to FIRE to consume, it will be much more difficult

[Dicey]

I don't buy into the commonly cited early retirement need for Vitamix blenders.

I got mine on sale at Costco for $299, not the oft-quoted $800. It cost less than one RV tire. Since I cook nearly every meal at home (and meal prep for RV travel), I considered it a reasonable post-FIRE investment. Before FIRE,  I mostly bought them second hand. I expect the Vitamix to last until I'm dead...and beyond.

[ixtap]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

People might be surprised by those careers, as well. There aren't many part time engineers, but between those seeking to balance parenthood and those seeking a semi retirement option, Megacorp changed their benefits to retain those who were seeking to go half time without cutting their pay to one quarter. I just don't understand why they didn't include the charity matching benefit :(

[jeninco]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

People might be surprised by those careers, as well. There aren't many part time engineers, but between those seeking to balance parenthood and those seeking a semi retirement option, Megacorp changed their benefits to retain those who were seeking to go half time without cutting their pay to one quarter. I just don't understand why they didn't include the charity matching benefit :(

I knew a pair of married civil engineers who basically job-shared while they were raising their three children. I think they actually were 3/4 - 1/4, and they switched every year or so.

And I've been working part-time as a consultant doing technical work since my oldest was born, 24 years ago. I'm obviously not retired, but it means I had a lot of time to put into learning about child development and raising our kids, and volunteering with various local groups that are fun for me.

Could I make money tutoring math -- sure! Would I rather keep tutoring low-income students who need the help? definitely!

[Metalcat]

I almost feel like this is a challenge now to retire in 2 years and make sure I don't have any earned income for 20 years, so you can say you know 3 people here who did it. lol :-P

I think it would be more challenging than you realize- the mind and skillsets that are required to be ready to FIRE make it almost impossible to not earn accidental money just by living your life productively.

Being somewhat anti-consumer makes you almost by default a "producer."

Producers create capital.  It's really pretty simple.  MMM found out he made a lot more money after he quit his job.  I am having a similar experience.  I think a lot of others do as well.

edited for a caveat: if your idea of FIRE is to consume a lot more, YMMV- but that would be contrary to the core orthodoxy of FIRE. 
Actually, now that I think about it- this is part of the big disagreement with concerns over how FIRE works.  I you want to FIRE to consume, it will be much more difficult

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

[Metalcat]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

People might be surprised by those careers, as well. There aren't many part time engineers, but between those seeking to balance parenthood and those seeking a semi retirement option, Megacorp changed their benefits to retain those who were seeking to go half time without cutting their pay to one quarter. I just don't understand why they didn't include the charity matching benefit :(

I didn't say anything about people going half-time in careers that aren't amenable to that.

I said that people have the capacity to retrain in high paying careers that they can do part time.

I literally *just* did this. I spent 2 years figuring out which industry would be best to retrain in, and found the one that worked best for me, and then retrained and started working a few weeks ago.

Most people are capable of being skilled in more than one industry.

[bluecollarmusician]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

[bluecollarmusician]

Exactly... because it would be a challenge to do. I think it would be very hard for most people to live a life of leisure perpetually while mindlessly drawing down their portfolio even during the bad times? Almost Nobody lives like that. Even if you are really, really lazy, you'll probably want to do something eventually that might turn into an income stream even if it's accidental.

Even people with massive trust funds don't tend to go their whole lives with no earned income.

...ding, ding, ding....!!

[twinstudy]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Thank you! The downside to my line of work is that it is high-stress and high-conflict, and because I have to run my own practice, I have to deal with a lot of admin and compliance matters.

The flexibility is good, though. I dropped down to 3 days a week for a while, without any difficulty or change to routine. I just told my clerks to book in fewer briefs. I also worked remotely during Covid, using the time to explore other cities.

A lot of people in my position would want to work part-time indefinitely, which is doable, but I'm more inclined to work full-time till I have my stash, and then retire. Even though my hours as a part-time or full-time worker are doable, there's something about the stress of always having to be 'on' that I don't like.

[spartana]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

Me! I've had Zero earned income over the past 20 years since I quit my job. But I recognize I'm probably and outlier even in the FIRE community.

[spartana]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

Maybe that is the anti-FIRE orthodoxy ;-).

[tj]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

Me! I've had Zero earned income over the past 20 years since I quit my job. But I recognize I'm probably and outlier even in the FIRE community.

You have had a pension/VA income the whole time though, right? 

[tj]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

[Metalcat]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

Me! I've had Zero earned income over the past 20 years since I quit my job. But I recognize I'm probably and outlier even in the FIRE community.

Yep, you're one of the ONLY ones I have ever, ever seen around here.

[Metalcat]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

It's pretty easy to avoid compensation if you don't want it. My entire retirement phase was filled with folks trying to pay me for my skills and I was like "yeah, no."

I did a ton of volunteer work along the way, and could have easily monetized a lot of my activities, but I just wanted to be retired for awhile until I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do.

I didn't last 20 years because I wanted to eventually do professional work again. But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities and just choose not to because you don't want to.

It's not terribly difficult to generate opportunities for profit and it's even easier to just choose to size step them.

[tj]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

It's pretty easy to avoid compensation if you don't want it. My entire retirement phase was filled with folks trying to pay me for my skills and I was like "yeah, no."

I did a ton of volunteer work along the way, and could have easily monetized a lot of my activities, but I just wanted to be retired for awhile until I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do.

I didn't last 20 years because I wanted to eventually do professional work again. But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities and just choose not to because you don't want to.

It's not terribly difficult to generate opportunities for profit and it's even easier to just choose to size step them.

That all makes sense. I think most people just wouldn't turn everything down though, particularly if you're primarily relying on a heavy stock portfolio . But the less money you need to spend to  live the life you want to live, the lower the temptation there would be to take any money.

In the US though, my understanding is that you're only eligible for Social Security Disability compensation if you earn a certain amount of money within the past 5 years, so it is kinda risky to just not do anything for profit because your medical costs could increase far moire than you ever expected but you wouldn't have the extra government benefits to help with that, it seems like pretty cheap insurance to do a bit of work every few years.

[Metalcat]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

It's pretty easy to avoid compensation if you don't want it. My entire retirement phase was filled with folks trying to pay me for my skills and I was like "yeah, no."

I did a ton of volunteer work along the way, and could have easily monetized a lot of my activities, but I just wanted to be retired for awhile until I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do.

I didn't last 20 years because I wanted to eventually do professional work again. But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities and just choose not to because you don't want to.

It's not terribly difficult to generate opportunities for profit and it's even easier to just choose to size step them.

That all makes sense. I think most people just wouldn't turn everything down though, particularly if you're primarily relying on a heavy stock portfolio . But the less money you need to spend to  live the life you want to live, the lower the temptation there would be to take any money.

In the US though, my understanding is that you're only eligible for Social Security Disability compensation if you earn a certain amount of money within the past 5 years, so it is kinda risky to just not do anything for profit because your medical costs could increase far moire than you ever expected but you wouldn't have the extra government benefits to help with that, it seems like pretty cheap insurance to do a bit of work every few years.

Not American, so no idea.

[Morning Glory]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

It's pretty easy to avoid compensation if you don't want it. My entire retirement phase was filled with folks trying to pay me for my skills and I was like "yeah, no."

I did a ton of volunteer work along the way, and could have easily monetized a lot of my activities, but I just wanted to be retired for awhile until I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do.

I didn't last 20 years because I wanted to eventually do professional work again. But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities and just choose not to because you don't want to.

It's not terribly difficult to generate opportunities for profit and it's even easier to just choose to size step them.

That all makes sense. I think most people just wouldn't turn everything down though, particularly if you're primarily relying on a heavy stock portfolio . But the less money you need to spend to  live the life you want to live, the lower the temptation there would be to take any money.

In the US though, my understanding is that you're only eligible for Social Security Disability compensation if you earn a certain amount of money within the past 5 years, so it is kinda risky to just not do anything for profit because your medical costs could increase far moire than you ever expected but you wouldn't have the extra government benefits to help with that, it seems like pretty cheap insurance to do a bit of work every few years.

Those disability benefits are asset tested, so it would be a moot point for most of us around here. Congress is talking about raising the limit to 10k because it's been stuck at 2k since the 90s.

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/08/g-s1-3475/social-security-ssi-asset-limits

[tj]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

It's pretty easy to avoid compensation if you don't want it. My entire retirement phase was filled with folks trying to pay me for my skills and I was like "yeah, no."

I did a ton of volunteer work along the way, and could have easily monetized a lot of my activities, but I just wanted to be retired for awhile until I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do.

I didn't last 20 years because I wanted to eventually do professional work again. But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities and just choose not to because you don't want to.

It's not terribly difficult to generate opportunities for profit and it's even easier to just choose to size step them.

That all makes sense. I think most people just wouldn't turn everything down though, particularly if you're primarily relying on a heavy stock portfolio . But the less money you need to spend to  live the life you want to live, the lower the temptation there would be to take any money.

In the US though, my understanding is that you're only eligible for Social Security Disability compensation if you earn a certain amount of money within the past 5 years, so it is kinda risky to just not do anything for profit because your medical costs could increase far moire than you ever expected but you wouldn't have the extra government benefits to help with that, it seems like pretty cheap insurance to do a bit of work every few years.

Those disability benefits are asset tested, so it would be a moot point for most of us around here. Congress is talking about raising the limit to 10k because it's been stuck at 2k since the 90s.

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/08/g-s1-3475/social-security-ssi-asset-limits

SSI is completely different from SSDI.

https://www.ssa.gov/disability/eligibility


You may be eligible for Disability if you have:

1. You have a disability or blindness
You must have a disability that affects your ability to work for a year or more, or will result in death.

If you continue to work, your condition must also limit you from earning income above an amount we call “substantial gainful activity” (SGA). In 2024, SGA is $1,550 per month, or $2,590 if you’re considered blind under our rules. We use different rules to determine SGA if you're self-employed.


2. You have enough work history
Generally, you must have worked for at least 5 of the last 10 years to qualify for Disability. People under the age of 24 may not need to have worked as long. Sign in and look under “More Benefits” to see if you’ve worked long enough to qualify.

[Morning Glory]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

It's pretty easy to avoid compensation if you don't want it. My entire retirement phase was filled with folks trying to pay me for my skills and I was like "yeah, no."

I did a ton of volunteer work along the way, and could have easily monetized a lot of my activities, but I just wanted to be retired for awhile until I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do.

I didn't last 20 years because I wanted to eventually do professional work again. But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities and just choose not to because you don't want to.

It's not terribly difficult to generate opportunities for profit and it's even easier to just choose to size step them.

That all makes sense. I think most people just wouldn't turn everything down though, particularly if you're primarily relying on a heavy stock portfolio . But the less money you need to spend to  live the life you want to live, the lower the temptation there would be to take any money.

In the US though, my understanding is that you're only eligible for Social Security Disability compensation if you earn a certain amount of money within the past 5 years, so it is kinda risky to just not do anything for profit because your medical costs could increase far moire than you ever expected but you wouldn't have the extra government benefits to help with that, it seems like pretty cheap insurance to do a bit of work every few years.

Those disability benefits are asset tested, so it would be a moot point for most of us around here. Congress is talking about raising the limit to 10k because it's been stuck at 2k since the 90s.

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/08/g-s1-3475/social-security-ssi-asset-limits

SSI is completely different from SSDI.

https://www.ssa.gov/disability/eligibility


You may be eligible for Disability if you have:

1. You have a disability or blindness
You must have a disability that affects your ability to work for a year or more, or will result in death.

If you continue to work, your condition must also limit you from earning income above an amount we call “substantial gainful activity” (SGA). In 2024, SGA is $1,550 per month, or $2,590 if you’re considered blind under our rules. We use different rules to determine SGA if you're self-employed.


2. You have enough work history
Generally, you must have worked for at least 5 of the last 10 years to qualify for Disability. People under the age of 24 may not need to have worked as long. Sign in and look under “More Benefits” to see if you’ve worked long enough to qualify.

Yeah, the asset limit is still $2000 for individuals or $3000 for couples.
https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/eligibility

ETA I found something that says ssdi isn't asset tested but it seems really hard to qualify.  That must be the one you were talking about.

[tj]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

It's pretty easy to avoid compensation if you don't want it. My entire retirement phase was filled with folks trying to pay me for my skills and I was like "yeah, no."

I did a ton of volunteer work along the way, and could have easily monetized a lot of my activities, but I just wanted to be retired for awhile until I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do.

I didn't last 20 years because I wanted to eventually do professional work again. But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities and just choose not to because you don't want to.

It's not terribly difficult to generate opportunities for profit and it's even easier to just choose to size step them.

That all makes sense. I think most people just wouldn't turn everything down though, particularly if you're primarily relying on a heavy stock portfolio . But the less money you need to spend to  live the life you want to live, the lower the temptation there would be to take any money.

In the US though, my understanding is that you're only eligible for Social Security Disability compensation if you earn a certain amount of money within the past 5 years, so it is kinda risky to just not do anything for profit because your medical costs could increase far moire than you ever expected but you wouldn't have the extra government benefits to help with that, it seems like pretty cheap insurance to do a bit of work every few years.

Those disability benefits are asset tested, so it would be a moot point for most of us around here. Congress is talking about raising the limit to 10k because it's been stuck at 2k since the 90s.

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/08/g-s1-3475/social-security-ssi-asset-limits

SSI is completely different from SSDI.

https://www.ssa.gov/disability/eligibility


You may be eligible for Disability if you have:

1. You have a disability or blindness
You must have a disability that affects your ability to work for a year or more, or will result in death.

If you continue to work, your condition must also limit you from earning income above an amount we call “substantial gainful activity” (SGA). In 2024, SGA is $1,550 per month, or $2,590 if you’re considered blind under our rules. We use different rules to determine SGA if you're self-employed.


2. You have enough work history
Generally, you must have worked for at least 5 of the last 10 years to qualify for Disability. People under the age of 24 may not need to have worked as long. Sign in and look under “More Benefits” to see if you’ve worked long enough to qualify.

Yeah, the asset limit is still $2000 for individuals or $3000 for couples.
https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/eligibility

There is no asset limit for SSDI. SSDI is completely separate from SSI.

[tj]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

It's pretty easy to avoid compensation if you don't want it. My entire retirement phase was filled with folks trying to pay me for my skills and I was like "yeah, no."

I did a ton of volunteer work along the way, and could have easily monetized a lot of my activities, but I just wanted to be retired for awhile until I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do.

I didn't last 20 years because I wanted to eventually do professional work again. But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities and just choose not to because you don't want to.

It's not terribly difficult to generate opportunities for profit and it's even easier to just choose to size step them.

That all makes sense. I think most people just wouldn't turn everything down though, particularly if you're primarily relying on a heavy stock portfolio . But the less money you need to spend to  live the life you want to live, the lower the temptation there would be to take any money.

In the US though, my understanding is that you're only eligible for Social Security Disability compensation if you earn a certain amount of money within the past 5 years, so it is kinda risky to just not do anything for profit because your medical costs could increase far moire than you ever expected but you wouldn't have the extra government benefits to help with that, it seems like pretty cheap insurance to do a bit of work every few years.

Those disability benefits are asset tested, so it would be a moot point for most of us around here. Congress is talking about raising the limit to 10k because it's been stuck at 2k since the 90s.

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/08/g-s1-3475/social-security-ssi-asset-limits

SSI is completely different from SSDI.

https://www.ssa.gov/disability/eligibility


You may be eligible for Disability if you have:

1. You have a disability or blindness
You must have a disability that affects your ability to work for a year or more, or will result in death.

If you continue to work, your condition must also limit you from earning income above an amount we call “substantial gainful activity” (SGA). In 2024, SGA is $1,550 per month, or $2,590 if you’re considered blind under our rules. We use different rules to determine SGA if you're self-employed.


2. You have enough work history
Generally, you must have worked for at least 5 of the last 10 years to qualify for Disability. People under the age of 24 may not need to have worked as long. Sign in and look under “More Benefits” to see if you’ve worked long enough to qualify.

Yeah, the asset limit is still $2000 for individuals or $3000 for couples.
https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/eligibility

ETA I found something that says ssdi isn't asset tested but it seems really hard to qualify.  That must be the one you were talking about.

SSI is the one that is really hard to qualify for, because you literally need to be broke...

SSDI can be a pain in the ass though, often you need to lawyer up. Here's a recent thread of someone going through it:

https://www.city-data.com/forum/health-insurance/3450567-social-security-disability-question.html

[Missy B]

I don't buy into the commonly cited early retirement need for Vitamix blenders.

Silly boy. Don't you know you can't afford to retire early if you buy a Vitamix blender.. Vitamix is just an evil corporate gateway drug to hook you into working forever. Next thing you know it's dyson vacuums and fans.

You...you... saw inside my brain.

[spartana]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

Me! I've had Zero earned income over the past 20 years since I quit my job. But I recognize I'm probably and outlier even in the FIRE community.

You have had a pension/VA income the whole time though, right?

I had to wait 14 years after leaving my job to be old enough (50) to be eligible to get a Gov pension. It was around $800/month the I was first eligible to take it and close to $900/month now (COLA). Also it was in lieu of getting SS. I did get a $300/month (now around $700/month) disability benefit from the VA after I got out of the service. Definitely didn't count on that to support me in my first decade plus of FIRE. It was helpful of course - and getting a small pension more then a decade after I quit my job was very nice. In hindsight though it would have been better to do a lump sum and invest it.

So living 100% on investments for more then a decade, and now still living of investment with some hooker and blow money from the small pensions years later.. But no I haven't earned any income via some sort of employment since I FIREd. Not even during the Great Recession when I lost half my NW shortly after I FIREd and was living 100% on savings and investments with zero other income source. 

[spartana]

I'm pretty sure TL was mostly just making a joke because he and I are friends.

I get the joke :-) And I like it.  I didn't take him seriously- I am more referring to the misguided idea that people who pursue young FIRE are doomed to failure because "what are you going to do that is productive" and "that's way to long a retirement...."  Just another arm of the IRP....


I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident.  Partly due to the fact that we have an economy that greatly rewards production, and partly because the set who are capable of reaching FIRE at a young age are typically net producers (not net consumers.)

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down. My one beef with the FIRE orthodoxy is this: Just because you choose to not earn an income doesn't mean you are not doing needed, helpful "work" during FIRE. Or that's you are just a lazy slacker for decades. Volunteers of the world should be outraged by this line of thinking imho.

This is very true, but I guess I'm impressed that zero of your life endeavors over the past 20 years have resulted in any form of paid compensation. :D

I'm sure if I had wanted to make money off of some of hem I could have but that didn't interest me. Certainly already had hobbies and skills - and learned more since FIREing - that I could have made a lot of money off of but ...why? I FIREd when I had "enough" and earning more would have required some kind of obligation that I wasn't willing to do.

[bluecollarmusician]

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down.

Hey @spartana !! Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that something wasn't productive if it didn't earn "money"! Although I realize the way I worded that read a little different than I intended- I stated it poorly.

I 100% agree with your statement. Money is capital, but not all capital is money.  It's one of the biggest misconceptions that gets in the way of people achieving freedom in their lives, and it's one of the biggest barriers to achieving FIRE imho. Failure to understand the "other" capital is what keeps people stuck in the "OMY syndrome" and also keep lively (and boring) arguments about very early retirement or the 4% rule.

Being productive produces capital- not always always money.  I love the way you said it- you are obviously productive, but because you don't need money, you don't bother to "earn" it, though if you needed to, it would easy to turn the faucet back on.

I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident. 

What I should have said: I think people people would be surprised how hard it is to be productive and NOT have money making opportunities keep showing up on accident.

This is more a response to concerns about early retirement/lean budgets etc.  I definitely did not mean to imply you aren't being productive if you don't earn money.  Far from it- money as compensation gauge for value is pretty askew in our world imo.

But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities ....

Oh wait, @Metalcat  already restated it for me :-)

I'm sure if I had wanted to make money off of some of hem I could have but that didn't interest me. Certainly already had hobbies and skills - and learned more since FIREing - that I could have made a lot of money off of but ...why? I FIREd when I had "enough" and earning more would have required some kind of obligation that I wasn't willing to do.

My point exactly!!

[spartana]

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down.

Hey @spartana !! Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that something wasn't productive if it didn't earn "money"! Although I realize the way I worded that read a little different than I intended- I stated it poorly.

I 100% agree with your statement. Money is capital, but not all capital is money.  It's one of the biggest misconceptions that gets in the way of people achieving freedom in their lives, and it's one of the biggest barriers to achieving FIRE imho. Failure to understand the "other" capital is what keeps people stuck in the "OMY syndrome" and also keep lively (and boring) arguments about very early retirement or the 4% rule.

Being productive produces capital- not always always money.  I love the way you said it- you are obviously productive, but because you don't need money, you don't bother to "earn" it, though if you needed to, it would easy to turn the faucet back on.

I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident. 

What I should have said: I think people people would be surprised how hard it is to be productive and NOT have money making opportunities keep showing up on accident.

This is more a response to concerns about early retirement/lean budgets etc.  I definitely did not mean to imply you aren't being productive if you don't earn money.  Far from it- money as compensation gauge for value is pretty askew in our world imo.

But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities ....

Oh wait, @Metalcat  already restated it for me :-)

I'm sure if I had wanted to make money off of some of hem I could have but that didn't interest me. Certainly already had hobbies and skills - and learned more since FIREing - that I could have made a lot of money off of but ...why? I FIREd when I had "enough" and earning more would have required some kind of obligation that I wasn't willing to do.

My point exactly!!

I know you didn't mean it that way (and hopefully @tj didn't mean his "lazy" comment that way either). But I do get a bit miffed sometimes since it seems like I've been being told for the last 20 years from "normal" non-FIRE minded people how I'm a lazy unproductive slacker who's a drain on society because I choose to RE and do other things instead. Didn't think I'd hear that same thing here.

I'll add that I did go back to work PT/on call 2 years after I quit for awhile. The PT/on call didn't work on as it started to morph into a FT contract job so I quit. I hadn't planned it but they called me and asked if I'd come back for a bit (was living in Spain at the time). Since my various certificates, licenses and clearance were about to expire I thought it would be a good idea. It wasn't but at least it gave me a clearer idea of how much I really wanted the FIRE life - plus got to pad the stash a bit by paying off the house.  However that wasn't a high paying job and I couldn't be hired for that now. The beauty of being able to live off a low income is that if SHTF and everything disappears you usually can earn enough doing anything to cover your expenses until the market recovers.

[tj]

Being "productive" and earning money are not the same thing. I consider myself to be productive in a myriad of ways that help others. I don't need any more money and if offered it I would turn it down.

Hey @spartana !! Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that something wasn't productive if it didn't earn "money"! Although I realize the way I worded that read a little different than I intended- I stated it poorly.

I 100% agree with your statement. Money is capital, but not all capital is money.  It's one of the biggest misconceptions that gets in the way of people achieving freedom in their lives, and it's one of the biggest barriers to achieving FIRE imho. Failure to understand the "other" capital is what keeps people stuck in the "OMY syndrome" and also keep lively (and boring) arguments about very early retirement or the 4% rule.

Being productive produces capital- not always always money.  I love the way you said it- you are obviously productive, but because you don't need money, you don't bother to "earn" it, though if you needed to, it would easy to turn the faucet back on.

I think people will mostly be surprised how hard you would have to work to NOT be productive and make money on accident. 

What I should have said: I think people people would be surprised how hard it is to be productive and NOT have money making opportunities keep showing up on accident.

This is more a response to concerns about early retirement/lean budgets etc.  I definitely did not mean to imply you aren't being productive if you don't earn money.  Far from it- money as compensation gauge for value is pretty askew in our world imo.

But my point is that it's really not hard to be productive and have tons of profitable opportunities ....

Oh wait, @Metalcat  already restated it for me :-)

I'm sure if I had wanted to make money off of some of hem I could have but that didn't interest me. Certainly already had hobbies and skills - and learned more since FIREing - that I could have made a lot of money off of but ...why? I FIREd when I had "enough" and earning more would have required some kind of obligation that I wasn't willing to do.

My point exactly!!

I know you didn't mean it that way (and hopefully @tj didn't mean his "lazy" comment that way either). But I do get a bit miffed sometimes since it seems like I've been being told for the last 20 years from "normal" non-FIRE minded people how I'm a lazy unproductive slacker who's a drain on society because I choose to RE and do other things instead. Didn't think I'd hear that same thing here.

I definitely did not mean to imply that you are lazy or a slacker.

[bluecollarmusician]

... it seems like I've been being told for the last 20 years from "normal" non-FIRE minded people how I'm a lazy unproductive slacker who's a drain on society because I choose to RE and do other things instead.

I am really sorry that you have had that. :-(

Fail on the part of people who don't understand what a rich life is. Or productive. Besides if money is how people measure productivity- you have more of it now.  Congrats on your success as a private hedge fund manager :-) You run the "business" of you remarkably well. And it's an inspiration to many. How's that for being productive?! ;-)

[spartana]

... it seems like I've been being told for the last 20 years from "normal" non-FIRE minded people how I'm a lazy unproductive slacker who's a drain on society because I choose to RE and do other things instead.

I am really sorry that you have had that. :-(

Fail on the part of people who don't understand what a rich life is. Or productive. Besides if money is how people measure productivity- you have more of it now.  Congrats on your success as a private hedge fund manager :-) You run the "business" of you remarkably well. And it's an inspiration to many. How's that for being productive?! ;-)

Well I will work for food so I'm a FIRE sell out ;-).  I helped a neighbor trim her tall cypress trees (chainsaw Barbie at the ready lol). She offered to pay me. I said no but told her I'd take some home baked goodies in exchange.

[tj]

... it seems like I've been being told for the last 20 years from "normal" non-FIRE minded people how I'm a lazy unproductive slacker who's a drain on society because I choose to RE and do other things instead.

I am really sorry that you have had that. :-(

Fail on the part of people who don't understand what a rich life is. Or productive. Besides if money is how people measure productivity- you have more of it now.  Congrats on your success as a private hedge fund manager :-) You run the "business" of you remarkably well. And it's an inspiration to many. How's that for being productive?! ;-)

Well I will work for food so I'm a FIRE sell out ;-).  I helped a neighbor trim her tall cypress trees (chainsaw Barbie at the ready lol). She offered to pay me. I said no but told her I'd take some home baked goodies in exchange.

Glad to hear the lost art of bartering is alive and well. :)

I once helped a friend move for pizza.

[GuitarStv]

... it seems like I've been being told for the last 20 years from "normal" non-FIRE minded people how I'm a lazy unproductive slacker who's a drain on society because I choose to RE and do other things instead.

I am really sorry that you have had that. :-(

Fail on the part of people who don't understand what a rich life is. Or productive. Besides if money is how people measure productivity- you have more of it now.  Congrats on your success as a private hedge fund manager :-) You run the "business" of you remarkably well. And it's an inspiration to many. How's that for being productive?! ;-)

Well I will work for food so I'm a FIRE sell out ;-).  I helped a neighbor trim her tall cypress trees (chainsaw Barbie at the ready lol). She offered to pay me. I said no but told her I'd take some home baked goodies in exchange.

Glad to hear the lost art of bartering is alive and well. :)

I once helped a friend move for pizza.

Pizza is the time honoured and traditional payment for helping a friend move.  Usually to be served with beer.

[bluecollarmusician]

Well I will work for food so I'm a FIRE sell out ;-).  I helped a neighbor trim her tall cypress trees (chainsaw Barbie at the ready lol). She offered to pay me. I said no but told her I'd take some home baked goodies in exchange.

Alternative forms of capital.  :-)

As a musician, working for food is nothing new to me.  Many of my best meals have been gig related.  Every time I order seconds, or make an extra trip in the buffet line I smile and say, "It's like getting a raise!"

[spartana]

Well I will work for food so I'm a FIRE sell out ;-).  I helped a neighbor trim her tall cypress trees (chainsaw Barbie at the ready lol). She offered to pay me. I said no but told her I'd take some home baked goodies in exchange.

Alternative forms of capital.  :-)

As a musician, working for food is nothing new to me.  Many of my best meals have been gig related.  Every time I order seconds, or make an extra trip in the buffet line I smile and say, "It's like getting a raise!"

Lol yeah Im a terrible cook and an even worse baker so depend on the kindness of strangers to feed me :).

Another thing I don't to is sell things I'm getting rid of. I donate to charity or even friends in need. Even somewhat expensive things like a car. I've never earned a penny selling anything. I just donated a lot of stuff since I'm selling and moving. I could have sold all of it but, again, didn't need the money and figure it's something nice I can do for someone else. Plus it's a hassle for me being so lazy and all ;-).

[tj]

Well I will work for food so I'm a FIRE sell out ;-).  I helped a neighbor trim her tall cypress trees (chainsaw Barbie at the ready lol). She offered to pay me. I said no but told her I'd take some home baked goodies in exchange.

Alternative forms of capital.  :-)

As a musician, working for food is nothing new to me.  Many of my best meals have been gig related.  Every time I order seconds, or make an extra trip in the buffet line I smile and say, "It's like getting a raise!"

Lol yeah Im a terrible cook and an even worse baker so depend on the kindness of strangers to feed me :).

Another thing I don't to is sell things I'm getting rid of. I donate to charity or even friends in need. Even somewhat expensive things like a car. I've never earned a penny selling anything. I just donated a lot of stuff since I'm selling and moving. I could have sold all of it but, again, didn't need the money and figure it's something nice I can do for someone else. Plus it's a hassle for me being so lazy and all ;-).

What do you typically eat? Do you find strangers to feed you every meal or do you suffer through your own cooking? 😁

[spartana]

Well I will work for food so I'm a FIRE sell out ;-).  I helped a neighbor trim her tall cypress trees (chainsaw Barbie at the ready lol). She offered to pay me. I said no but told her I'd take some home baked goodies in exchange.

Alternative forms of capital.  :-)

As a musician, working for food is nothing new to me.  Many of my best meals have been gig related.  Every time I order seconds, or make an extra trip in the buffet line I smile and say, "It's like getting a raise!"

Lol yeah Im a terrible cook and an even worse baker so depend on the kindness of strangers to feed me :).

Another thing I don't to is sell things I'm getting rid of. I donate to charity or even friends in need. Even somewhat expensive things like a car. I've never earned a penny selling anything. I just donated a lot of stuff since I'm selling and moving. I could have sold all of it but, again, didn't need the money and figure it's something nice I can do for someone else. Plus it's a hassle for me being so lazy and all ;-).

What do you typically eat? Do you find strangers to feed you every meal or do you suffer through your own cooking? 😁

I suffer thru my own cooking - that is if you consider a salad, a veggie sandwich and a protein smoothie "cooking" ;-).

[Ron Scott]

Yeah, productivity and money making are different animals.

The thing I really like about careers—like some types of law as discussed above—that lend themselves to part-time work is that you can use all the tech and related skill sets you had while you pulled down the kind of money needed for FI.

No problem changing the kind of work you do, but I’d suspect most people would earn more by sticking with their areas of expertise.

I had the kind of job in which you were all in or all out…

[Metalcat]

Yeah, it's great when you can tap into the skills you already have to make money if you enjoy those skills.

My whole point about retraining and upskilling is to respond to the endless doom-sayers who rant about how it's a myth that you can go back to work in retirement because their specific career is all-or-nothing.

Like...uh...okay...

Y'all know that learning new skills can be a lot of fun, right??

Nobody is doomed to only have access to the one career they trained for, but that seems to be the default assumption that a lot of folks make when it comes to whining about how they don't want to have to work as a Walmart greeter if they ever need more money.

And yet, this is the same population that's like "why don't you just watch YouTube videos to figure out how to DIY building your own house?"

I reno'd a few homes by myself, getting a new graduate degree was easier and less stressful.

[lhamo]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

Me! I've had Zero earned income over the past 20 years since I quit my job. But I recognize I'm probably and outlier even in the FIRE community.

I was 46 when I FIREd in 2015 and I got one consulting paycheck for around $1800 in the first 6 months before I decided I didn't want to tie myself to the new manager for that contract.  Haven't had earned income since.  Split the stash evenly in an amicable divorce.  Still mulling whether I want to earn some income in the next 3-4 years to fund a kitchen renovation sooner rather than later, but I don't NEED to go to work.

[tj]

I run my own practice and have never had any difficulty getting work - there is always a shortage of experienced trial lawyers, by design (bottlenecks on intake). If I had to come back to practice after a 5 year break I don't think it would be difficult at all to get clients. And if you have a good thriving practice you can earn as much as biglaw partners if you specialise in the right work - e.g. commercial, taxation, litigation.

I am envious of people who ended up in a line of work that could be done on a part time basis while maintaining a high rate of pay, relative to full time.

It’s one thing to quit a job at the bank, FIRE, and then drive for Uber to make a few bucks. But if you can still bring in a couple/few hundred an hour on a par-time, work-when-you-want-basis you maintain a nice income stream and stay in the game.

Good for you.

Or folks can retrain in these careers if they really want to...

It's not like leaving a job prevents you from ever building a different career.

I would be shocked if there's anyone who retires before the age of 40 has zero forms of earned income over the subsequent 20 years. It's weird to me that some people think that is a thing that some people do

Me! I've had Zero earned income over the past 20 years since I quit my job. But I recognize I'm probably and outlier even in the FIRE community.

I was 46 when I FIREd in 2015 and I got one consulting paycheck for around $1800 in the first 6 months before I decided I didn't want to tie myself to the new manager for that contract.  Haven't had earned income since.  Split the stash evenly in an amicable divorce.  Still mulling whether I want to earn some income in the next 3-4 years to fund a kitchen renovation sooner rather than later, but I don't NEED to go to work.

How much does the Reno cost? Maybe the portfolio can absorb the one time hit?

[Dicey]

Well I will work for food so I'm a FIRE sell out ;-).  I helped a neighbor trim her tall cypress trees (chainsaw Barbie at the ready lol). She offered to pay me. I said no but told her I'd take some home baked goodies in exchange.

Alternative forms of capital.  :-)

As a musician, working for food is nothing new to me.  Many of my best meals have been gig related.  Every time I order seconds, or make an extra trip in the buffet line I smile and say, "It's like getting a raise!"

Lol yeah Im a terrible cook and an even worse baker so depend on the kindness of strangers to feed me :).

Another thing I don't to is sell things I'm getting rid of. I donate to charity or even friends in need. Even somewhat expensive things like a car. I've never earned a penny selling anything. I just donated a lot of stuff since I'm selling and moving. I could have sold all of it but, again, didn't need the money and figure it's something nice I can do for someone else. Plus it's a hassle for me being so lazy and all ;-).

What do you typically eat? Do you find strangers to feed you every meal or do you suffer through your own cooking? 😁

I suffer thru my own cooking - that is if you consider a salad, a veggie sandwich and a protein smoothie "cooking" ;-).

Badass.

[bluecollarmusician]

Yeah, productivity and money making are different animals.

@ronscott Would you mind elaborating?  As stated I strongly disagree, but usually when that is the case it's because I don't understand what you mean.

Making money and productivity would be well described as profitable activities which would make them very similar.