Author Topic: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?  (Read 16386 times)

twinstudy

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What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« on: June 21, 2024, 09:37:16 PM »
I thought it would be fun to hear where everyone dissents from the 'usual' FIRE approach or opinion!

ixtap

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2024, 09:40:23 PM »
I think you would need to define said orthodoxy.

Mainstream media seems to think that the main tenet is that you have to be miserable and you can't have a life during accumulation. I certainly am not on board with that.

twinstudy

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2024, 09:49:27 PM »
I think you would need to define said orthodoxy.

Mainstream media seems to think that the main tenet is that you have to be miserable and you can't have a life during accumulation. I certainly am not on board with that.

Without wanting to be exhaustive, I would define the orthodoxy as the following - I won't include media portrayals as they are often straw men:

1. Avoid managed funds

2. Work on a combination of reducing inefficient spending and increasing income

3. Adhere to the 4% rule, with any adjustment required for your own degree of risk tolerance

4. Focus on frugality and conscious spending choices

5. Money saved/earned now has much greater value than money saved/earned later due to compounding

6. Frugality is a good thing of itself, for the most part

7. Most people can achieve FIRE with good planning

8. FIRE is a good thing overall and people's attachment to work is often unhealthy

Telecaster

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2024, 09:52:48 PM »
^ That's a pretty good list.  You could add nuance to any one of those, but overall pretty solid. 

Fru-Gal

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2024, 10:33:41 PM »
Yeah I can’t think of what I’d disagree with on that excellent list!

Zikoris

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2024, 10:34:06 PM »
As far as "old-school orthodoxy" goes (as listed above), I don't disagree with anything other than the tendency a lot of people have to spend a lot of time fucking around with stupid shit that should be automated (spreadsheets, bills, etc). I'm a huge proponent of automating or eliminating as much bullshit as possible from your life to maximize time available for fun things. Of course, if spreadsheets are fun to you then no issue, but I have a hard time believing many people would genuinely prefer spreadsheets to other leisure activities.

My main disagreements are with the modern FIRE iterations that have sprung up over the years as it's become more mainstream. Things like:

- Happiness and spending are correlated. People with low budgets do nothing fun and are boring.
- It just costs X to live (especially in reference to specific cities), when there are definitely people that live for less than X, often much less, and even in the specific city. Chronic excusitis basically.
- The general massive increase in standard of living that's now considered the "bare minimum" within the community (such as owning a detached home in a city, multiple car household, bloated grocery budget, frequent restaurants, all sorts of subscriptions, and generally lots of stupid-shit spending).

twinstudy

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2024, 11:00:44 PM »
As far as "old-school orthodoxy" goes (as listed above), I don't disagree with anything other than the tendency a lot of people have to spend a lot of time fucking around with stupid shit that should be automated (spreadsheets, bills, etc). I'm a huge proponent of automating or eliminating as much bullshit as possible from your life to maximize time available for fun things. Of course, if spreadsheets are fun to you then no issue, but I have a hard time believing many people would genuinely prefer spreadsheets to other leisure activities.

My main disagreements are with the modern FIRE iterations that have sprung up over the years as it's become more mainstream. Things like:

- Happiness and spending are correlated. People with low budgets do nothing fun and are boring.
- It just costs X to live (especially in reference to specific cities), when there are definitely people that live for less than X, often much less, and even in the specific city. Chronic excusitis basically.
- The general massive increase in standard of living that's now considered the "bare minimum" within the community (such as owning a detached home in a city, multiple car household, bloated grocery budget, frequent restaurants, all sorts of subscriptions, and generally lots of stupid-shit spending).

I agree with the automation bit. I think our most limited resource is not money, and not even time - it is decision-making ability. If you have a 'system' for daily tasks, for picking out your outfit, for meal prep, then that frees up mental space to do more important or harder things (or to simply be present and enjoy down-time).

I find a lot of strategies that require active thought, e.g. coupon cutting, deal-seeking and rewards points cashing in, are not worth it when you consider the brain drain required. I don't have any rewards cards because I find that the mental energy needed to calculate 'is this worth it' when buying for points, and the very limited cash out options/rewards (I don't fly very often and don't care much for lounge access, etc), don't suit me. But they suit some people. My partner is very good at this stuff and she gets it done with minimal mental overload, so she handles all of that.

For me I am happy to pay extra for convenience or a lack of hassle, which is why I don't mind paying more for an all-inclusive stay so that I don't get nickeled and dimed. This is also why I don't like going to third world countries for holidays - having to deal with touts in your face, and mentally sorting exchange rates, and being on the lookout for scams, to me is exhausting. I'd rather visit a first world country and pay normal rates and dispense with the inconvenience. Of course, this is an individual thing.

2sk22

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2024, 04:17:04 AM »
6. Frugality is a good thing of itself, for the most part

After a lifetime of frugality and accumulation, I am trying to find ways to no longer be frugal but in a responsible way.

Nice list - this should give us much to talk about for a while 😀

Ladychips

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2024, 04:51:08 AM »

6. Frugality is a good thing of itself, for the most part

7. Most people can achieve FIRE with good planning

8. FIRE is a good thing overall and people's attachment to work is often unhealthy

1-5 absolutely.

I believe six, but I sometimes think frugality is a gene that some people have and others don't. So I think it's true for me, but not necessarily other people.

As for 7, I know alot of people with very poor paying jobs. I don't know how they live day to day much less save for retirement. Lots of societal issues around privilege, education etc. packed into this one.

And 8 I absolutely believe, but I don't like that about myself. Who am I to say what's best for other people?

Republic DC-9

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2024, 05:02:39 AM »
6. Frugality is a good thing of itself, for the most part

After a lifetime of frugality and accumulation, I am trying to find ways to no longer be frugal but in a responsible way.

Nice list - this should give us much to talk about for a while 😀


Maybe from reading and re-reading MMM’s posts and these forums it feels like there’s often a deep respect for the environment/not completely trashing the earth wrapped up in #6.


The more frugal one is spending-wise, the less resources need to be extracted from the earth, fuel burned, carbon dioxide generated, dumped back onto the earth in the form of “landfill” (which sounds nice, like it’s land that needed filling, but in reality they’re just gigantic mountains of trash rising higher and higher on the horizon).


The closer I get to FIRE (I’m in OMY mode at moment), the less I want to spend because I realize the impacts of my spending.

Metalcat

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2024, 05:47:22 AM »
There's no clear consensus of what frugality means, so you can't really generalize whether it's good or bad.

For some it means extreme economizing, for others it means spending much less than one makes, and for others it means not wasting money on crap that doesn't meaningfully improve your quality of life.

This debate has occurred many times around here with a ton of opinions and no consensus, and that's among people who generally define themselves as frugal.

As for whether most people can achieve FIRE with good planning, well what does achieving FIRE even mean?? If someone was on track to work until 80 and manages to save more and retire at 75, that's earlier than they would have. So what is "early?"

Can most people do it? Sure...but it all depends on what trade offs they can stomach. For some folks it makes more sense to work longer to be close to family in a VHCOL area than to retire early. For other folks, their incomes are so low that the trade offs to save more would severely damage their family's quality of life.

Can everyone save more? Sure...probably. Would it produce better overall outcomes for all of them?? Debatable.

Attachment to work is neither inherently healthy or unhealthy. That's like saying marriage is inherently healthy or unhealthy. Work is a complex lifestyle choice, some work scenarios add to overall health and well being and some detract from it. Just like some marriages are beneficial and some are horrific.

Some FI/FU money folks use their freedom to find more enjoyable work, some use it to focus on non-profitable projects.

Life is FILLED with activities, whether some of them generate profit or not doesn't define whether they're good or bad.

Complex lifestyle choices are complex.

No one really "adheres" to the 4% rule. It's just a starting point by which estimate a savings target. It's heavily driven by feelings and extremely rough estimates. But no human would ever spend according to the assumptions in the 4% rule.

It's just a tool for helping with goal setting and decision making because these are such complex lifestyle decisions that we don't really have better tools, so we work with what we've got.

But it's a bit like measuring time with a sun dial.

As for managed funds, the messaging isn't to avoid them but to be informed about the value of what you are buying compared to the alternative. Most people are sold managed funds as the default investment, which is silly, so that's why there's huge emphasis on at least learning about passive investing to be able to make informed decisions. I have some active funds in my portfolio and I have informed reasons for having them.

As for the value of compounding, that's just math. But is a dollar saved now worth more than later in terms of personal value? Maybe, maybe not. That gets back to the whole complex nuanced thing about lifestyle choices.

What does more money later *actually* mean to you?

In a society filled with people with debt up to their eyeballs, buying shit that doesn't make them any happier, and working jobs that they hate, it's pretty reasonable to generalize that money saved now is worth more.

But it's not at all universal. For those with more than enough, saving more can be essentially meaningless for them personally. The question is if spending more now would bring them more general health, happiness, and thriving.

I bought a whole ass second house instead of saving and it's the wisest decision I've ever made in my life according to my therapist, and frankly, every single person who talks to me for more than 15 minutes.

Then again, you can say the same thing about my job, which I retrained for in my 40s even though I really didn't need to make more money.

So no, I don't think much of what has been cited is "orthodoxy" at all, I think a lot of it is just common sense push back against the societal norm of rampant consumerism and misery.

But it's really all about balance. And in a world that is SO unbalanced towards the unhealthy, the direction of the advice can appear unilateral. When really, it isn't.

We're not Gen Pop in this community, so very frequently, the advice actually goes in the other direction. Over savers are pushed to save less, misers are pushed to spend more, retired folks are often encouraged to pick up some kind of work if they're feeling listless with leisure.

The only real orthodoxy here is that if the rampant consumerism culture we live in is making you sick and miserable, then maybe don't do that.

(Dammit, had to edit because I pieced a few responses together)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 06:22:15 AM by Metalcat »

Ron Scott

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2024, 06:17:12 AM »
8. FIRE is a good thing overall and people's attachment to work is often unhealthy
This is an oft-implied tenet that serves more to debase than enhance the stature of FIRE. It is disrespectful of FIRE.

Early Retirement is a life choice. It’s value is not self-evident and it’s adherents are not god’s chosen. It is simply a choice available to some people, that a subset of those people find real value in.

Ascribing inherent value to FIRE by implicitly rejecting the leading alternative choice of most people is unnecessarily contentious. FIRE should be allowed to stand alone and speak for itself as to its value. It need not be defended by criticizing those who either choose to work because they like it or work to live in a lifestyle they choose.

I have no need whatsoever to defend my decision to happily choosing to live in New York by castigating people who live in New Jersey, and the analogy is apt.

Loren Ver

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2024, 07:19:21 AM »
I think you would need to define said orthodoxy.

Mainstream media seems to think that the main tenet is that you have to be miserable and you can't have a life during accumulation. I certainly am not on board with that.

Without wanting to be exhaustive, I would define the orthodoxy as the following - I won't include media portrayals as they are often straw men:

1. Avoid managed funds

2. Work on a combination of reducing inefficient spending and increasing income

3. Adhere to the 4% rule, with any adjustment required for your own degree of risk tolerance

4. Focus on frugality and conscious spending choices

5. Money saved/earned now has much greater value than money saved/earned later due to compounding

6. Frugality is a good thing of itself, for the most part

7. Most people can achieve FIRE with good planning

8. FIRE is a good thing overall and people's attachment to work is often unhealthy

1. Avoid managed funds
-  Our three biggest funds are regular brokerage accounts that are actively managed.  They are our workhorse accounts and are the biggest since they are out pacing all our index investing even though those got 401k money.  I don't recommend these funds to others since most people don't do well with higher risk and just need a more simple VSTAX, but for us, it has worked out very well over the past 24 years. 

2. Work on a combination of reducing inefficient spending and increasing income
- Spending yes, sometimes.  Income - not so much.  DH abandoned all his bachelor's degree work and went back for an associate's degree.  There his earnings were in the 30k range until retirement, about half what he had made before.  But he was smiling again. I stayed in my job and did not look to climb.  I was in a chronically underpaid group that didn't value my solid yet middle of the road performance.  I made it through 4 rounds of lay offs and a merger/split, but wasn't high on the promotion list.  Stable income was more important than job hopping for our short careers. 

3. Adhere to the 4% rule, with any adjustment required for your own degree of risk tolerance
- We retired before we hit our full numbers, because we knew the market would eventually get there, and it did.  I use the 4% when people ask me how much they need to retire, I use it to help them ballpark what they need to shoot for.  They can always adjust as they get closer. 

4. Focus on frugality and conscious spending choices
6. Frugality is a good thing of itself, for the most part
- This might be too vague.  Somethings I just spend and frugality isn't what I am thinking about, the tradeoffs are.  I like to buy cars which are blue- usually they aren't the most frugal choice and the color has no barring on performance, but that's the one I get anyway.  The blue makes me happy.  I thought the color = happiness would wear off after a little while.  Nope,  years later blue = happy.  Smiling right now as I type this.  Should I have gotten the not blue more frugal econobox car...?

7. Most people can achieve FIRE with good planning
- Most people being US, Euro, Canada, and related countries centric.  Which is not most people.  Most people like me, near me, and have the opportunities, laws, and governance I do.  Yes.... 

8. FIRE is a good thing overall and people's attachment to work is often unhealthy
-This one I don't know.  I am second generation FIRE.  DH and I had no attachment to work and just left one Friday afternoon with no issues.  My dad left work after 20 years no issues.  I grew up in Florida the land of retirees and many of them have no issues being happily retired, at LOTS of different ages.  It wasn't until I was on this forum that I came across this attachment to work.  Could it be associated with many in the FIRE community are really highly paid (DH and didn't suffer from this), hyper focus, highly analytical, or some other issue that causes a bias? 
-I also don't think FIRE is good thing in an of itself.  It is just a thing.  I don't recommend FIRE for lots of people, if they aren't interested, I don't bring it up. 

Overall, there are parts of each of them that I agree with, and parts that I don't.  As with life, things are nuanced.  Some parts I agree with, but don't practice 100%, or it is what I recommend to others but isn't the path I want to take. 

Loren

Louise

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2024, 07:28:17 AM »
You didn't mention it, but it's often implied (esp. on other forums) that you can't have children and expect to retire early. That's completely false.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2024, 08:46:19 AM »
Being all do it yourself.  I have a fee only financial advisor (I control 100% of my money he give me advice).  Mike is not emotional about my money and gets me out of the parts of the FIRE eco chamber that may not apply to me.  (I will have a pension and health care in FIRE).  Also I get to outsource the math to him on things like I want to spend $xx next year, how much extra do I need to pull out for taxes.

pasadenafr

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2024, 09:55:03 AM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

Most of the part-time jobs that you can find mid- or late-career after a multi-year "pause" aren't what they're cracked up to be in the FIRE community. They're not fun, they're not fulfilling, and they don't pay well.

I also don't like point 7 much. Yes, a lot of people in the US could. No, that's not "most". People who FIRE before their 50's aren't just good, frugal budgeters and planners. They're also - for the most part - high income earners or have a support network that a lot of others don't.

bacchi

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2024, 09:59:54 AM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

Most of the part-time jobs that you can find mid- or late-career after a multi-year "pause" aren't what they're cracked up to be in the FIRE community. They're not fun, they're not fulfilling, and they don't pay well.

This is especially true in a recession when everyone else is looking for a job too.

Zikoris

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2024, 10:36:46 AM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

Most of the part-time jobs that you can find mid- or late-career after a multi-year "pause" aren't what they're cracked up to be in the FIRE community. They're not fun, they're not fulfilling, and they don't pay well.

But the key thing is, as an early retiree if you decide to go back to work you wouldn't NEED to make anywhere close to the income you did pre-retirement. For example, my half of expenses falls somewhere between 12-16K/year. If I somehow burned through all my investments, that's the maximum amount I'd need to earn to maintain my current lifestyle, even including European vacations, etc. There are TONS of easy part time jobs that pay 12-16K/year - and you can't seriously tell me any FIRE person would have tremendous difficulty finding a 12K/year job.

Metalcat

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2024, 10:46:50 AM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

Most of the part-time jobs that you can find mid- or late-career after a multi-year "pause" aren't what they're cracked up to be in the FIRE community. They're not fun, they're not fulfilling, and they don't pay well.

I also don't like point 7 much. Yes, a lot of people in the US could. No, that's not "most". People who FIRE before their 50's aren't just good, frugal budgeters and planners. They're also - for the most part - high income earners or have a support network that a lot of others don't.

As a woman who was out of the workforce for years, and who happens to be profoundly disabled, I do not agree with this at all.

There's a HUGE difference between trying to find a job when you urgently need money vs taking your time to upskill and reenter the job force.

Is it easy? Depends on what you consider easy. It takes effort, sure, but if you have a ton of free time and money, effort can be pretty easy.

I *just* started working for pay part time a few weeks ago and I make over $100/hr and have multiple job offers for even more money.

I had to put in quite a bit of work to be able to do this, but I had the time and resources to do so, and generally really enjoyed the process doing the kind of work I was already doing for fun.

When you have ample free time and resources, it's really not that hard to generate some kind of profitable opportunities for yourself.

Zikoris

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2024, 11:33:53 AM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

Most of the part-time jobs that you can find mid- or late-career after a multi-year "pause" aren't what they're cracked up to be in the FIRE community. They're not fun, they're not fulfilling, and they don't pay well.

I also don't like point 7 much. Yes, a lot of people in the US could. No, that's not "most". People who FIRE before their 50's aren't just good, frugal budgeters and planners. They're also - for the most part - high income earners or have a support network that a lot of others don't.

As a woman who was out of the workforce for years, and who happens to be profoundly disabled, I do not agree with this at all.

There's a HUGE difference between trying to find a job when you urgently need money vs taking your time to upskill and reenter the job force.

Is it easy? Depends on what you consider easy. It takes effort, sure, but if you have a ton of free time and money, effort can be pretty easy.

I *just* started working for pay part time a few weeks ago and I make over $100/hr and have multiple job offers for even more money.

I had to put in quite a bit of work to be able to do this, but I had the time and resources to do so, and generally really enjoyed the process doing the kind of work I was already doing for fun.

When you have ample free time and resources, it's really not that hard to generate some kind of profitable opportunities for yourself.

My boyfriend launched his freelance editing business in a sort of similar way in 2018. He spent a few months working on it in his spare time, and it went from a side gig to his only work in about three months. He had a regular job during that time, but it would have been even faster and easier if he had not been working at the time. I guarantee no editing client gives a shit about work history or what "normal jobs" their editor had and when. The only thing that matters is editing skill and professionalism.

mistymoney

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2024, 11:36:51 AM »
As far as "old-school orthodoxy" goes (as listed above), I don't disagree with anything other than the tendency a lot of people have to spend a lot of time fucking around with stupid shit that should be automated (spreadsheets, bills, etc). I'm a huge proponent of automating or eliminating as much bullshit as possible from your life to maximize time available for fun things. Of course, if spreadsheets are fun to you then no issue, but I have a hard time believing many people would genuinely prefer spreadsheets to other leisure activities.

My main disagreements are with the modern FIRE iterations that have sprung up over the years as it's become more mainstream. Things like:

- Happiness and spending are correlated. People with low budgets do nothing fun and are boring.
- It just costs X to live (especially in reference to specific cities), when there are definitely people that live for less than X, often much less, and even in the specific city. Chronic excusitis basically.
- The general massive increase in standard of living that's now considered the "bare minimum" within the community (such as owning a detached home in a city, multiple car household, bloated grocery budget, frequent restaurants, all sorts of subscriptions, and generally lots of stupid-shit spending).

If you've an interest, I'd love to see a thread with all the automations (and a little how-to info, websites to check out, etc) you have or envision could be useful!


mistymoney

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2024, 12:19:51 PM »
I'd argue half that list is just conventional wisdom, not even fire related.

mistymoney

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2024, 12:23:58 PM »
6. Frugality is a good thing of itself, for the most part

After a lifetime of frugality and accumulation, I am trying to find ways to no longer be frugal but in a responsible way.

Nice list - this should give us much to talk about for a while 😀


Maybe from reading and re-reading MMM’s posts and these forums it feels like there’s often a deep respect for the environment/not completely trashing the earth wrapped up in #6.


The more frugal one is spending-wise, the less resources need to be extracted from the earth, fuel burned, carbon dioxide generated, dumped back onto the earth in the form of “landfill” (which sounds nice, like it’s land that needed filling, but in reality they’re just gigantic mountains of trash rising higher and higher on the horizon).


The closer I get to FIRE (I’m in OMY mode at moment), the less I want to spend because I realize the impacts of my spending.

It really depends on the focus of your frugality. I'm trying very hard to reduce plastic consumption. And it can be difficult, and more expensive, so if someone's frugality is only measured in dollars and cents, then that might translate into worse environmental outcomes.

twinstudy

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2024, 12:29:40 PM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

Most of the part-time jobs that you can find mid- or late-career after a multi-year "pause" aren't what they're cracked up to be in the FIRE community. They're not fun, they're not fulfilling, and they don't pay well.

I also don't like point 7 much. Yes, a lot of people in the US could. No, that's not "most". People who FIRE before their 50's aren't just good, frugal budgeters and planners. They're also - for the most part - high income earners or have a support network that a lot of others don't.

As a woman who was out of the workforce for years, and who happens to be profoundly disabled, I do not agree with this at all.

There's a HUGE difference between trying to find a job when you urgently need money vs taking your time to upskill and reenter the job force.

Is it easy? Depends on what you consider easy. It takes effort, sure, but if you have a ton of free time and money, effort can be pretty easy.

I *just* started working for pay part time a few weeks ago and I make over $100/hr and have multiple job offers for even more money.

I had to put in quite a bit of work to be able to do this, but I had the time and resources to do so, and generally really enjoyed the process doing the kind of work I was already doing for fun.

When you have ample free time and resources, it's really not that hard to generate some kind of profitable opportunities for yourself.

Yes, I think if your job is a white collar one in law, consulting, finance etc it should not be difficult to resume practice, and no one even needs to know about your hiatus. It's a few hundred per year to keep your registration current.

Metalcat

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2024, 12:34:50 PM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

Most of the part-time jobs that you can find mid- or late-career after a multi-year "pause" aren't what they're cracked up to be in the FIRE community. They're not fun, they're not fulfilling, and they don't pay well.

I also don't like point 7 much. Yes, a lot of people in the US could. No, that's not "most". People who FIRE before their 50's aren't just good, frugal budgeters and planners. They're also - for the most part - high income earners or have a support network that a lot of others don't.

As a woman who was out of the workforce for years, and who happens to be profoundly disabled, I do not agree with this at all.

There's a HUGE difference between trying to find a job when you urgently need money vs taking your time to upskill and reenter the job force.

Is it easy? Depends on what you consider easy. It takes effort, sure, but if you have a ton of free time and money, effort can be pretty easy.

I *just* started working for pay part time a few weeks ago and I make over $100/hr and have multiple job offers for even more money.

I had to put in quite a bit of work to be able to do this, but I had the time and resources to do so, and generally really enjoyed the process doing the kind of work I was already doing for fun.

When you have ample free time and resources, it's really not that hard to generate some kind of profitable opportunities for yourself.

Yes, I think if your job is a white collar one in law, consulting, finance etc it should not be difficult to resume practice, and no one even needs to know about your hiatus. It's a few hundred per year to keep your registration current.

Um...I did specify that I retrained. I'm in an entirely new profession than the one I retired from.

My mom also retired in her 40s due to disability and then turned around and began two totally unrelated and successful businesses, and she was a highschool dropout.

It really is remarkable what you can do when you have time and money to put towards upskilling and projects.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 12:39:39 PM by Metalcat »

mistymoney

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2024, 12:50:39 PM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

I agree with you on this one! the more years the pause, the harder to get and less fruitful the job will be if you do get one. I do know someone who did the SAHM for something bit less than a decade, and thought they could waltz back into the workforce somewhere between what they had left the workforce at and where their previous work peers had progressed to by that time (!). No advice (as someone who does do a bit of hiring) would register, so I said it once, twice, and thrice, and gave up with anything but sympathetic nods. Eventually, after a lot of frustration, they started back at an entry-level position and was able to start working their way up after about 3 years. So, really essentially starting over. At least their education held to get them back at entry-level.




mistymoney

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2024, 01:00:15 PM »
oh - the thing that I heartily disagree with is that you need to retire to something, not away from something.

I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

I plan to bake in the hammock with a highly iced drink that tinkles delightfully every time I take a sip. When the ice is melted I will go into the air conditioned house and veg on the couch some more.

I will revel in this, and then at some point when the thrill is off, I'll start making plans.

Dicey

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2024, 01:01:26 PM »
I'd argue half that list is just conventional wisdom, not even fire related.
Totally agree that a lot of frugality techniques have nothing to do with FIRE.

I'd add that I don't spend on things I don't care about, so I can spend freely on things I do. Not keeping up with the Joneses is at the top of my IDGAF list.

@Loren Ver, your blue car story made me smile. I had a blue car when DH and I wed. He strongly prefers...white vehicles. He also does the maintenance and repairs. When he said it was time to let the blue car go, it was replaced with a white one. (Not complaining, I like the new car, which is now ten years old and still our newest car.) It kills him that our RV is not white. The manufacturer recently started making white ones. We've already picked out the model we want and now we're just waiting until we can find one that's about about five years old. This is exactly how we bought our current rig.

@mistymoney, your no-plans plan sounds excellent!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 01:10:49 PM by Dicey »

Metalcat

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2024, 01:03:44 PM »
oh - the thing that I heartily disagree with is that you need to retire to something, not away from something.

I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

I plan to bake in the hammock with a highly iced drink that tinkles delightfully every time I take a sip. When the ice is melted I will go into the air conditioned house and veg on the couch some more.

I will revel in this, and then at some point when the thrill is off, I'll start making plans.

1000%

One of the biggest benefits of retiring for me was learning not to have specific goals and to just live more in the moment.

mistymoney

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2024, 01:07:59 PM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

Most of the part-time jobs that you can find mid- or late-career after a multi-year "pause" aren't what they're cracked up to be in the FIRE community. They're not fun, they're not fulfilling, and they don't pay well.

But the key thing is, as an early retiree if you decide to go back to work you wouldn't NEED to make anywhere close to the income you did pre-retirement. For example, my half of expenses falls somewhere between 12-16K/year. If I somehow burned through all my investments, that's the maximum amount I'd need to earn to maintain my current lifestyle, even including European vacations, etc. There are TONS of easy part time jobs that pay 12-16K/year - and you can't seriously tell me any FIRE person would have tremendous difficulty finding a 12K/year job.

Hopefully, current trends on employment hold out.

Men were roaming around during the great depression trying to find anything to do for money, with very little that ever came up for them. They were going through neighborhoods knocking on doors to do anything for a dime. My grandmother didn't have any money to pay them, but would serve them a plate of food on the porch which they were very grateful for, and then they would move on trying to find anything to do for that dime. https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1930?amount=0.10
tells me that is less than $2 today.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/v2jf46/men_waiting_in_a_line_for_the_possibility_of_a/

Zikoris

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2024, 01:32:05 PM »
If you've an interest, I'd love to see a thread with all the automations (and a little how-to info, websites to check out, etc) you have or envision could be useful!

I don't know if there would be a whole thread worth, but I definitely do a lot of automation! Some that I do now:

* Automated bill paying
* Bulk weekend meal prep to eliminate all food-decisions during the week
* Having five outfits for work and similar minimalism for other parts of my wardrobe (two casual outfits, one nice dress for anything fancy, etc) completely eliminates thinking about what to wear

Some that I've done in the past:

* Automated financial tracking with Mint. My new service, Lunch Money, has been a little spotty on the syncing so I've mostly been using it manually, but I'm hoping it will eventually work properly.
* Automatic ordering for things I go through at a consistent rate. When I had a cat I had auto orders for his food and litter, since he was very consistent. I also used to have weekly automatic grocery delivery when I was single, with a random assortment of local produce (changed every week) plus my usual stuff like soy milk, bread, etc.

I also actively set up my life to eliminate a lot of stuff altogether. I don't like doing chores, so I like in a small minimalist apartment with no outdoor areas to maintain. I live somewhere walking distance from everything so I don't need a car or transit. etc.

Metalcat

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2024, 01:37:27 PM »
For me it's the belief that you can always go back to work or find a part-time job.

If you're retirering super early, good luck finding a new job after 10 years. Ask any woman who raised her kids at home for years. Is it possible? Probably, depending on your skills. Is it going to be easy? No. Are you going to replace your old job and income? Probably not.
If you're retirering at 45 or 50, yeah, not happening.

Most of the part-time jobs that you can find mid- or late-career after a multi-year "pause" aren't what they're cracked up to be in the FIRE community. They're not fun, they're not fulfilling, and they don't pay well.

But the key thing is, as an early retiree if you decide to go back to work you wouldn't NEED to make anywhere close to the income you did pre-retirement. For example, my half of expenses falls somewhere between 12-16K/year. If I somehow burned through all my investments, that's the maximum amount I'd need to earn to maintain my current lifestyle, even including European vacations, etc. There are TONS of easy part time jobs that pay 12-16K/year - and you can't seriously tell me any FIRE person would have tremendous difficulty finding a 12K/year job.

Hopefully, current trends on employment hold out.

Men were roaming around during the great depression trying to find anything to do for money, with very little that ever came up for them. They were going through neighborhoods knocking on doors to do anything for a dime. My grandmother didn't have any money to pay them, but would serve them a plate of food on the porch which they were very grateful for, and then they would move on trying to find anything to do for that dime. https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1930?amount=0.10
tells me that is less than $2 today.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/v2jf46/men_waiting_in_a_line_for_the_possibility_of_a/

But again, FIRE folks aren't poor people desperate for just any job.

We usually have the ability to wait out bad years, invest money in upskilling during that time, target markets that are in more demand or more profitable.

Had I needed "a job" a few years ago, I would have struggled. Being as disabled as I am, needing huge chunks of time off for surgeries, it would have been a nightmare for me to "find a job."

Instead I spent about 40K and a few years learning cool new shit while stuck in my bed and while relearning how to walk, and then voila, new career.

Times of brutal economies also tend to be incredible times to buy equipment and supplies for new businesses, to hire staff, etc.

I cannot overstate how radically different the world of looking for a new job/business is when you have time and money vs when you need money urgently.

It's like comparing apples to monster trucks. It's just nowhere near the same thing, and comparing the two is actually really insulting to folks who desperately need to find work urgently.

Even in my retraining. My program is designed for people who work full time. Virtually all of my classmates work full time and it's very expensive and not eligible for full student loans, so they're cash flowing 5-10K every few months and doing full time school in their free time on top of full time jobs.

It's brutal for them. They stress every time a new fee increase happens, I've seen meltdowns about not knowing about licensing fees. Burnout is extremely common.

I just had a really nice time reading cool books and writing interesting papers when I didn't feel like doing anything else. I didn't even blink at the tuition and just thought it was a really good value.

When I was looking at extremely competitive practicums, some were asking students to take additional 4 figure courses as part of the internship, and I was like "yeah sure, no problem."

My reality in this process of building a whole new career for myself is nothing, and I mean NOTHING like the experience of my classmates. It would be utterly disrespectful of me to even compare my experience to theirs. They've suffered enormously to make this career change, I literally primarily chose to do it so that I would have something to do while recovering from surgeries.

The level of privilege I bring to the experience compared to my classmates is astronomical.

So I consider comparing the situation of a FIREd person who decides that they could use more money in the nearish future to someone who urgently needs a job to survive is just low-key offensive.

ETA: I want to make this ridiculously clear.

I retired from an extremely specific career with no option to return and not a ton of transferrable skills. I am profoundly disabled and need to unpredictability take time off to recover for multiple surgeries.

I cannot work full time, I cannot work a job that requires me to stand, I also cannot work a job that requires me to sit in a chair, I also cannot work a job that requires me to type too much on a computer. Almost all employment is out for me.

And yet, it was easy for me to build an entirely new, disability-friendly career that pays very well because I had the time and resources to retrain in exactly the industry that would work for me.

It's easier for me, the mangled gymp who can't do most jobs to find lucrative work than the average educated, able-bodied person if they need a job urgently and don't have financial resources.

Time and money is that powerful.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 01:42:42 PM by Metalcat »

Telecaster

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2024, 03:24:29 PM »
I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

That's what I did.  I needed some decompression time.   One thing that surprised me about FIRE that I didn't realize at the time, was that prior to retirement about 4:30 or so in the morning I would wake up and my mind would start running through the list of things I needed to do that day at work.   I wasn't stressed about work, I just had a bunch of tasks that needed to be managed.  Now I'm FIRE'd, I don't wake up.

Bulk weekend meal prep to eliminate all food-decisions during the week

^ The power of this simple act cannot be over stated.   The financial, time saving, and, health benefits of doing this are enormous.  It is like a superpower.


mistymoney

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2024, 03:54:11 PM »
I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

That's what I did.  I needed some decompression time.   One thing that surprised me about FIRE that I didn't realize at the time, was that prior to retirement about 4:30 or so in the morning I would wake up and my mind would start running through the list of things I needed to do that day at work.   I wasn't stressed about work, I just had a bunch of tasks that needed to be managed.  Now I'm FIRE'd, I don't wake up.

Bulk weekend meal prep to eliminate all food-decisions during the week

^ The power of this simple act cannot be over stated.   The financial, time saving, and, health benefits of doing this are enormous.  It is like a superpower.
[/quote


personally - I usually feel that benefits of something like this comes at the expense of freshness. Is it mostly meat type stuff?

Louise

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2024, 04:00:54 PM »
As far as "old-school orthodoxy" goes (as listed above), I don't disagree with anything other than the tendency a lot of people have to spend a lot of time fucking around with stupid shit that should be automated (spreadsheets, bills, etc). I'm a huge proponent of automating or eliminating as much bullshit as possible from your life to maximize time available for fun things. Of course, if spreadsheets are fun to you then no issue, but I have a hard time believing many people would genuinely prefer spreadsheets to other leisure activities.

I love budgets and spreadsheets. I'll never give them up. I gave up check writing and mailing bills a long time ago, but I do kind of miss that. I liked the pen and paper part I guess.

Zikoris

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2024, 07:27:31 PM »
I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

That's what I did.  I needed some decompression time.   One thing that surprised me about FIRE that I didn't realize at the time, was that prior to retirement about 4:30 or so in the morning I would wake up and my mind would start running through the list of things I needed to do that day at work.   I wasn't stressed about work, I just had a bunch of tasks that needed to be managed.  Now I'm FIRE'd, I don't wake up.

Bulk weekend meal prep to eliminate all food-decisions during the week

^ The power of this simple act cannot be over stated.   The financial, time saving, and, health benefits of doing this are enormous.  It is like a superpower.


personally - I usually feel that benefits of something like this comes at the expense of freshness. Is it mostly meat type stuff?

I don't know anything about meat or how to cook/store it, I've been vegan since I was 12.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2024, 08:38:09 PM »
oh - the thing that I heartily disagree with is that you need to retire to something, not away from something.

I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

I plan to bake in the hammock with a highly iced drink that tinkles delightfully every time I take a sip. When the ice is melted I will go into the air conditioned house and veg on the couch some more.

I will revel in this, and then at some point when the thrill is off, I'll start making plans.

1000%

One of the biggest benefits of retiring for me was learning not to have specific goals and to just live more in the moment.

I’m looking forward to my Gap Year(s).  I’m sure I’ll do something at some point, but not right away.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2024, 09:29:21 PM »
I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

That's what I did.  I needed some decompression time.   One thing that surprised me about FIRE that I didn't realize at the time, was that prior to retirement about 4:30 or so in the morning I would wake up and my mind would start running through the list of things I needed to do that day at work.   I wasn't stressed about work, I just had a bunch of tasks that needed to be managed.  Now I'm FIRE'd, I don't wake up.

Bulk weekend meal prep to eliminate all food-decisions during the week

^ The power of this simple act cannot be over stated.   The financial, time saving, and, health benefits of doing this are enormous.  It is like a superpower.
[/quote


personally - I usually feel that benefits of something like this comes at the expense of freshness. Is it mostly meat type stuff?

We bulk meat and veggies with no discernable issues. We don't primarily do it on weekends...just whenever we have time in a kind of rolling plan of evaluating and seeing that we're close to running out of one of our two main courses (meat usually) that we have at any given time or one of our handful of vegetable sides. Then we plan cooking them an evening or weekend we have time. Some are noticeably not as good as the one time they're fresh but are still tasty. Most I can barely tell the difference.

mistymoney

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2024, 10:57:49 PM »
I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

That's what I did.  I needed some decompression time.   One thing that surprised me about FIRE that I didn't realize at the time, was that prior to retirement about 4:30 or so in the morning I would wake up and my mind would start running through the list of things I needed to do that day at work.   I wasn't stressed about work, I just had a bunch of tasks that needed to be managed.  Now I'm FIRE'd, I don't wake up.

Bulk weekend meal prep to eliminate all food-decisions during the week

^ The power of this simple act cannot be over stated.   The financial, time saving, and, health benefits of doing this are enormous.  It is like a superpower.


personally - I usually feel that benefits of something like this comes at the expense of freshness. Is it mostly meat type stuff?

I don't know anything about meat or how to cook/store it, I've been vegan since I was 12.

Nice! I've been slowly sliding into veganism over the past decade.

So for the batch cooking, what kinds of stuff are you prepping? I prefer to have salad every day, but I've gotten so spoiled with the garden this spring, I feel like lettuce I picked yesterday is just not that fresh! Let alone prechopped and all.

Coleslaw is good premade, but only for a few days.

I can't think of anything I make that would be a good batch cooking, except for roasted tofu and tamales. still seems like 3 days tops till use.

Zikoris

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2024, 11:27:56 PM »
Nice! I've been slowly sliding into veganism over the past decade.

So for the batch cooking, what kinds of stuff are you prepping? I prefer to have salad every day, but I've gotten so spoiled with the garden this spring, I feel like lettuce I picked yesterday is just not that fresh! Let alone prechopped and all.

Coleslaw is good premade, but only for a few days.

I can't think of anything I make that would be a good batch cooking, except for roasted tofu and tamales. still seems like 3 days tops till use.

What I make totally depends on the week because I'm a VERY creative/chaotic cook, so my shopping is more just buying a bunch of ingredients that looks interesting and then figuring it out once I'm in the kitchen. I don't use recipes. For next week's meals so far I've made a big tofu stir fry, a pot pie, and spaghetti and meatballs. Tomorrow I'm thinking maybe kung pao stir fry for lunch and chili for dinner, probably making the leftover chili into burritos. Maybe one additional thing but I'm not sure what yet.

Metalcat

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2024, 03:24:33 AM »
I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

That's what I did.  I needed some decompression time.   One thing that surprised me about FIRE that I didn't realize at the time, was that prior to retirement about 4:30 or so in the morning I would wake up and my mind would start running through the list of things I needed to do that day at work.   I wasn't stressed about work, I just had a bunch of tasks that needed to be managed.  Now I'm FIRE'd, I don't wake up.

Bulk weekend meal prep to eliminate all food-decisions during the week

^ The power of this simple act cannot be over stated.   The financial, time saving, and, health benefits of doing this are enormous.  It is like a superpower.


personally - I usually feel that benefits of something like this comes at the expense of freshness. Is it mostly meat type stuff?

I don't know anything about meat or how to cook/store it, I've been vegan since I was 12.

Nice! I've been slowly sliding into veganism over the past decade.

So for the batch cooking, what kinds of stuff are you prepping? I prefer to have salad every day, but I've gotten so spoiled with the garden this spring, I feel like lettuce I picked yesterday is just not that fresh! Let alone prechopped and all.

Coleslaw is good premade, but only for a few days.

I can't think of anything I make that would be a good batch cooking, except for roasted tofu and tamales. still seems like 3 days tops till use.

Yes, you have to learn meals that are better for batch cooking, when I switched to batch cooking I completely changed how we ate.

I have about 150 vegetarian recipes on the first page of my journal if you want to see healthy, delicious, recipes that work well for this purpose.

curious_george

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2024, 04:22:31 AM »
For me FIRE isn't even about money really. It's about lifestyle optimization and living your ideal life.

So I tend to not even pay much attention to money much. All of my bills are on auto pay. I usually only know my networth +- 100k, and sometimes months go by where I have no idea what my networth is or even what our expenses have been.

My ideal life just doesn't involve working a job. I can't really think of any job that I could see myself happily doing for 10-20 years even. I can think of a *lot* of jobs where I would be happy doing for a few months or years, basically long enough to learn about the job and build competency.

Usually by the time I am competent doing something I am also then bored of it and ready to move on to the next thing.

FIRE is also like this, and once things were optimized it didn't make sense to think much or put much effort or worry in to the money aspect of things.

This isn't about building a financial portfolio. It's about building an ideal life, and an ideal life requires money (for me anyway).

I naturally don't see much value in frugality for frugality sake. If DW or I really want something we will just go buy it, so parts of our life don't look that Mustachian.

For example - we have four children. We live in a 3,000 square foot mcmansion. We have one of the most expensive dishwashers and clothes washers that a person can buy. We have nice shoes, etc.

I also think that how much money one is comfortable spending should not depend just on how many hours one has to work to get the money, but also one if one enjoys those hours at work or not.

The notion that money is the same thing as life is a false notion, because time passes regardless of what you do. Some people actually enjoy working certain jobs, or they enjoy doing it for a while, etc.

This equating money with life also causes people to be hesitant to spend money on things that will improve their life, because they think 'this cost me 4 hours of my life'. And this isn't an accurate statement.

What it really cost is 4 hours at your particular job - the time was going to pass anyway. Your money and your life are two different things, and equating the two completely causes some people to subconsciously associate spending money with dying, then they develop an irrational fear of spending money and fear of running out of money, because they think the way that the majority of the population lives with little savings would somehow be the end of the world for them personally.

They develop an irrational level of discomfort with the idea of running out of money, then they waste thousands of hours of their life doing extensive analysis on the 4% rule to attempt to satisfy this insecurity, which ultimately can never be satisfied because life itself is inherently insecure, and the end of money does not and should not equate with the end of life at all. There are broke people everywhere who are very much still alive.

If you think about this in terms of the trading of time at your specific job it also emphasizes the idea that you can change jobs and find something more enjoyable to you. Some jobs aren't so bad.

Maybe retirement isn't what you need. Maybe you just need to find something you enjoy and some people you enjoy hanging out with.

johndoe

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2024, 08:17:19 AM »
While OP's 8 points are nice, I'd probably argue 'FIRE orthodoxy' could be boiled down even more simply to something like "a person spending less than 4% of their invested assets is FI and can choose to RE".  Of course the 4% can be debated and there are many subsections to that statement - but that's the basis IMO.  And if we disagree, that's part of the orthodoxy we don't subscribe to :)

One subsection that many FIRE folks care about is shrinking environmental impacts - a Venn diagram between this and 'living simply' / cutting spending.  This is a subsection I don't subscribe to - ethical obligation to Earth is unlikely to ever shape how I spend time / money.  If this rock has existed for 4.5 billion years and supports 8 billion humans, my miniscule "suburban USA DINK" actions are well above average.  I'm not about to voluntarily give up air conditioning and vacations.

twinstudy

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2024, 09:08:54 AM »
While OP's 8 points are nice, I'd probably argue 'FIRE orthodoxy' could be boiled down even more simply to something like "a person spending less than 4% of their invested assets is FI and can choose to RE".  Of course the 4% can be debated and there are many subsections to that statement - but that's the basis IMO.  And if we disagree, that's part of the orthodoxy we don't subscribe to :)

One subsection that many FIRE folks care about is shrinking environmental impacts - a Venn diagram between this and 'living simply' / cutting spending.  This is a subsection I don't subscribe to - ethical obligation to Earth is unlikely to ever shape how I spend time / money.  If this rock has existed for 4.5 billion years and supports 8 billion humans, my miniscule "suburban USA DINK" actions are well above average.  I'm not about to voluntarily give up air conditioning and vacations.

I agree with your latter paragraph. While I am relatively frugal by nature and do not seek to overuse resources in general, I think there are huge double-standards at play regarding environmentalism - plenty of people in all countries have families that they cannot support, in a financial or an ecological sense, and they seem to glide by without consequence; the overall pollutants released by the shrinking population of smokers is equivalent to the emissions of 17 million cars, yet everyone focusses on gas-guzzlers but doesn't blame smokers. It's very unfair.

If we are serious about ecology, the simplest thing to do is to have a blanket tax on consumption, scaled so that environmentally friendly consumption is not taxed or minimally taxed and unfriendly types of consumption are maximally taxed.

Loren Ver

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2024, 09:14:59 AM »
@Dicey That's too funny.  DH doesn't care about car color.  I had several white ones and will never go back!  Blue is first choice, then anything bright, but not white or any other colors of compromise and sadness. 

G-dog

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2024, 09:44:16 AM »
6. Frugality is a good thing of itself, for the most part

After a lifetime of frugality and accumulation, I am trying to find ways to no longer be frugal but in a responsible way.

Nice list - this should give us much to talk about for a while 😀

True for me as well.  At first, frugality and budgeting were required since I had no savings and not great pay at first. But then those habits stuck, regardless of income and savings.  It can be hard to loosen the reins.

G-dog

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2024, 09:57:01 AM »
oh - the thing that I heartily disagree with is that you need to retire to something, not away from something.

I know that once I retire, I will collapse in an exhausted heep for about 6 months or so and just veg out. I plan to let myself do so. I plan to snuggle into blankets on the couch and never ever think about what time I need to wake up the next day.

I plan to bake in the hammock with a highly iced drink that tinkles delightfully every time I take a sip. When the ice is melted I will go into the air conditioned house and veg on the couch some more.

I will revel in this, and then at some point when the thrill is off, I'll start making plans.

I didn’t retire “to” anything - and it’s exactly what I needed.  I am still busy with various things, but it’s nice to not have goals and pressures.

vand

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2024, 11:40:19 AM »
Putting everything into passive Index... I personally aim for about 40% into a passive portfolio. The rest is split 3/4 individual stocks and 1/4 macro plays.

I know the stats and the arguments against my strategy well enough. But I see active investing as a worthy pursuit in and of itself.

Highbeam

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2024, 01:33:43 PM »


3. Adhere to the 4% rule, with any adjustment required for your own degree of risk tolerance

As I approach the end of my accumulation stage I have firmed up two cola adjusted pensions and two SS incomes that will all turn on in about 15 years. This means that the 4% rule is too conservative, instead a much higher SWR is recommended. Or, I can look at those other hefty income streams as a safety net or bonus. Varying from the 4% rule isn't just about risk tolerance but recognizing that the 4% rule is for a 30+ year term and that if you only need less years of portfolio spending that you can creep up to 5 or 6% with the same risk of failure as the 4% for 30.



 

mistymoney

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Re: What parts of FIRE orthodoxy do you not subscribe to?
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2024, 02:22:46 PM »


3. Adhere to the 4% rule, with any adjustment required for your own degree of risk tolerance

As I approach the end of my accumulation stage I have firmed up two cola adjusted pensions and two SS incomes that will all turn on in about 15 years. This means that the 4% rule is too conservative, instead a much higher SWR is recommended. Or, I can look at those other hefty income streams as a safety net or bonus. Varying from the 4% rule isn't just about risk tolerance but recognizing that the 4% rule is for a 30+ year term and that if you only need less years of portfolio spending that you can creep up to 5 or 6% with the same risk of failure as the 4% for 30.

I'm in a similar, but smaller boat. Will only have 1 social security check.

But the higher you go above 4%, the greater the likelihood you run out of money before the steady check comes in. In my case, if I ran out of everything before social security - I'd be in a tough spot as social security would not be enough to live off of comfortably/without some big changes I'd rather not make.

Is your situation such that the pensions and soc sec are good enough for the rest of your life? Is there any information you can point me to about doing a higher percentage for an initial period? What to look for, guard against, when to panic, etc.