What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?

[Metalcat]

Dave Ramsey says you shouldn't contribute to retirement until you're debt free except for the house, even forgoing employer matching. Meanwhile, he does NOT tell you stop tithing 10% to the church. Granted, I'm not religious so I'm biased to think tithing is strange, but if you're in a hair-on-fire debt situation, paying 10% of your income as essentially a club membership is not a smart financial move. If someone was donating 10% to Planned Parenthood or Amnesty International or some other non-church charity, he'd tell them to knock it off until they had some actual money in the bank.

His math is just really really bad. In general I'm fine with "debt snowball" until he is telling people to pay off their 0% debt and take on 15 year mortgages for no good reason.

Exactly, this is why I find the argument that his intellectual property is somehow so valuable on its own to be kind of ridiculous.

DR's value is his persuasiveness, and the fact that he has used that to convince millions of people to get out of debt. That has value, but *his* value is his ability to persuade people, so when he turns that ability towards nefarious, immoral goals, then it's irrational to try a d separate out his financial knowledge as somehow separate and sacrosanct, since it's largely garbage anyway.

It's actually a testament to just how persuasive DR is that he's been so successful at getting people to get out of debt, despite his actual advice being mediocre at best to downright idiotic when looking at the actual math of it.

This is why it's ridiculous for people to say that his work is somehow above his personal failings.

We're not talking about finding out that Einstein had sex with underage boys and saying that we should throw out half of what we know about physics because of "cancel culture."

We're saying that a man who got VERY rich by being bombastic and persuasive should be held accountable for the things that he says while being bombastic and persuasive.

[Hash Brown]

I've already posted on this thread but I'll reiterate that I happened to live in Nashville back when Dave's show was local.  It was my introduction to a lot of this stuff.  I was the first time I heard strangers speak openly about their financial situations.  The anonymity of radio made it possible. 

Having suffered terrible and completely random career, health, and money setbacks in my early adult life, I became much more risk averse than the average person.  I did not follow Dave's scorched-earth advice to the letter, but I definitely patterned my actions after his ideas.  For example, I broke his rules when I bought a property speculatively and with a personal loan from the bank, but I then used the profits to pay off low-interest loans, including a 0% loan on my washer and dryer.  Yeah, I'd have come out ahead if I had put that money in the market, but there was no way to know that back then. 

Most dramatically, on his advice, I got a second job when I was 30 years old and still work there every weekend and on some weeknights.  I've made about $250,000 at that part-time job.  When I applied to buy a second house, the mortgage broker laughed at my application since he had basically never seen anyone in my position with zero consumer debt.  No student loans, no car loan, no credit card debt.  My credit score was over 800. 

[Metalcat]

I've already posted on this thread but I'll reiterate that I happened to live in Nashville back when Dave's show was local.  It was my introduction to a lot of this stuff.  I was the first time I heard strangers speak openly about their financial situations.  The anonymity of radio made it possible. 

Having suffered terrible and completely random career, health, and money setbacks in my early adult life, I became much more risk averse than the average person.  I did not follow Dave's scorched-earth advice to the letter, but I definitely patterned my actions after his ideas.  For example, I broke his rules when I bought a property speculatively and with a personal loan from the bank, but I then used the profits to pay off low-interest loans, including a 0% loan on my washer and dryer.  Yeah, I'd have come out ahead if I had put that money in the market, but there was no way to know that back then. 

Most dramatically, on his advice, I got a second job when I was 30 years old and still work there every weekend and on some weeknights.  I've made about $250,000 at that part-time job.  When I applied to buy a second house, the mortgage broker laughed at my application since he had basically never seen anyone in my position with zero consumer debt.  No student loans, no car loan, no credit card debt.  My credit score was over 800.

Okay sure, but none of his advice is anything that you couldn't have easily sought out yourself. DR doesn't manage to help millions of people because his advice is so amazing, he manages to help millions of people because he's entertaining enough to get a radio show that people actually want to listen to, which as you said, is often the first time anyone hears people talking about personal finance openly.

It's great that people are exposed to this stuff because of DR, but that doesn't make his advice particularly good.

DR is to finance what Dr Oz is to medicine.

[DadJokes]

I've already posted on this thread but I'll reiterate that I happened to live in Nashville back when Dave's show was local.  It was my introduction to a lot of this stuff.  I was the first time I heard strangers speak openly about their financial situations.  The anonymity of radio made it possible. 

Having suffered terrible and completely random career, health, and money setbacks in my early adult life, I became much more risk averse than the average person.  I did not follow Dave's scorched-earth advice to the letter, but I definitely patterned my actions after his ideas.  For example, I broke his rules when I bought a property speculatively and with a personal loan from the bank, but I then used the profits to pay off low-interest loans, including a 0% loan on my washer and dryer.  Yeah, I'd have come out ahead if I had put that money in the market, but there was no way to know that back then. 

Most dramatically, on his advice, I got a second job when I was 30 years old and still work there every weekend and on some weeknights.  I've made about $250,000 at that part-time job.  When I applied to buy a second house, the mortgage broker laughed at my application since he had basically never seen anyone in my position with zero consumer debt.  No student loans, no car loan, no credit card debt.  My credit score was over 800.

And if you had actually followed his advice to the letter, your credit score would have been zero (well, nonexistant), and getting the mortgage would have been a bit more challenging.

[LetsRetireYoung]

I agree with y'all that DR is definitely not the best personal finance expert out there. However, his monomaniacal obsession with killing debt might be the reason he became so popular while lots of other experts failed to win over that poorly educated, negative-net-worth demographic.

Ramsey's books have all the subtlety and finesse of "Dick and Jane" picture books for toddlers. He chews up and spits out the same thing over and over: all debt is bad. There's a whole lot more to personal finance than that, yes, but that also might be the only way to help the Americans that have zero financial knowledge. (Or maybe even negative amount of knowledge, if they have bad beliefs like "my credit card limit is how much money I should spend.")

At the risk of sounding like a pompous elitist, not everyone is bright - but everyone gets credit card offers. If you take a random poorly educated person and start telling them that they need to pay off their credit cards and contribute to retirement funds and make a budget and invest in their own education and look for a better job, etc, their heads will explode. :(

I'm not on board with Ramsey's 10% tithing rule, among others, but he's the living proof that if you go allll the way down to where the bottom 20% live (you know, the 80/20 principle?) and break things down into almost insultingly simple pieces, and keep things almost insultingly simple - you can succeed where the others failed.

Ramsey is far from perfect, but he also did more to educate the worst-off Americans than just about anybody else. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Metalcat]

I agree with y'all that DR is definitely not the best personal finance expert out there. However, his monomaniacal obsession with killing debt might be the reason he became so popular while lots of other experts failed to win over that poorly educated, negative-net-worth demographic.

Ramsey's books have all the subtlety and finesse of "Dick and Jane" picture books for toddlers. He chews up and spits out the same thing over and over: all debt is bad. There's a whole lot more to personal finance than that, yes, but that also might be the only way to help the Americans that have zero financial knowledge. (Or maybe even negative amount of knowledge, if they have bad beliefs like "my credit card limit is how much money I should spend.")

At the risk of sounding like a pompous elitist, not everyone is bright - but everyone gets credit card offers. If you take a random poorly educated person and start telling them that they need to pay off their credit cards and contribute to retirement funds and make a budget and invest in their own education and look for a better job, etc, their heads will explode. :(

I'm not on board with Ramsey's 10% tithing rule, among others, but he's the living proof that if you go allll the way down to where the bottom 20% live (you know, the 80/20 principle?) and break things down into almost insultingly simple pieces, and keep things almost insultingly simple - you can succeed where the others failed.

Ramsey is far from perfect, but he also did more to educate the worst-off Americans than just about anybody else. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

which I don't think anyone has argued against

[LetsRetireYoung]

which I don't think anyone has argued against

That was how I interpreted your earlier comment: "despite his actual advice being mediocre at best to downright idiotic when looking at the actual math of it."

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

[Metalcat]

which I don't think anyone has argued against

That was how I interpreted your earlier comment: "despite his actual advice being mediocre at best to downright idiotic when looking at the actual math of it."

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Yes, but I have never argued that he hasn't helped many people, if you read all of my posts in this thread, I have been very clear. DR hasn't helped anyone because his advice is amazing, he's helped people because his personality is entertaining, and his often reasonably good advice is ubiquitous.

What makes DR so successful is his personality, not the quality of his advice. As I said, like Dr Oz is to medicine.
Dr Oz has probably saved millions of lives by getting people to go get things checked, but the actual content of a lot of his advice is pure garbage.

[LetsRetireYoung]

DR hasn't helped anyone because his advice is amazing, he's helped people because his personality is entertaining, and his often reasonably good advice is ubiquitous.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The world is filled with charismatic personal finance experts, but I personally think that Ramsey beat them all because he was charismatic and willing to chew up his advice into insultingly tiny pieces, whereas most of the rest of his competition tried offering more complicated solutions. He got his radio show and all the other charisma-friendly media only after he sold all his books. It's a bit of a "chicken and the egg" problem, I suppose. :)

[Metalcat]

DR hasn't helped anyone because his advice is amazing, he's helped people because his personality is entertaining, and his often reasonably good advice is ubiquitous.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The world is filled with charismatic personal finance experts, but I personally think that Ramsey beat them all because he was charismatic and willing to chew up his advice into insultingly tiny pieces, whereas most of the rest of his competition tried offering more complicated solutions. He got his radio show and all the other charisma-friendly media only after he sold all his books. It's a bit of a "chicken and the egg" problem, I suppose. :)

Fair enough, I kind of consider his delivery to be part of his personality. His information is definitely formatted to be more digestible, but that doesn't change the meat and potatoes of the advice itself, which is nothing special.

So instead of saying it's his personality that made him so successful, I'm willing to change it to his delivery that made him so successful.

Exactly the same way MMM's delivery is what made him famous, not the nuts and bolts of his advice, which is essentially common sense, and very basic math, but delivered in a way that makes you think.

And MMM too should be held accountable for the things he says that aren't strictly financial. Which is the ONLY point I've been defending here.
Not whether or not DR has value, but whether that value absolves him of responsibility for his non finance positions on controversial topics.

[Kris]

Then there’s this. Ugh.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/16/dave-ramsey-employee-covid-precaution-lawsuit/

[talltexan]

Shocking claims, if true.

It will be interesting to see how things go in court, assuming there isn't a settlement.

[Metalcat]

Shocking claims, if true.

It will be interesting to see how things go in court, assuming there isn't a settlement.

I would be shocked if this wasn't settled. DR has deep pockets and an NDA on this would be worth a lot.

[Dicey]

Pretty sure I've expressed my feelings about DR way upthread. I haven't kept up because I don't care about DR. It popped up in my feed today, so I got caught up. I did so because I just read that DR is coming to a major metropolitan mainstream radio station near me. (KSFO, to replace Chip Franklin. Someone please tell me Google is wrong.)

Anyway, this snippet cannot go unremarked upon:

Most dramatically, on his advice, I got a second job when I was 30 years old and still work there every weekend and on some weeknights.  I've made about $250,000 at that part-time job.  When I applied to buy a second house, the mortgage broker laughed at my application since he had basically never seen anyone in my position with zero consumer debt.  No student loans, no car loan, no credit card debt.  My credit score was over 800.

Kudos to you for getting and maintaining what is known in mustachian circles as  a "side hustle". However, I lol'd at the bolded part. Who the fuck do you think you're bragging to? Take a number and find your place in line, sir.

Your comment made me think of a fun social experiment. Take two recent college graduates with similar backgrounds and identical financial pictures. Let's make them the same race, gender, and give them the same degree from the same school, just to keep the field flat. Send one to DR's FP "University" and introduce the other to the MMM blog and forum. Have them start a Case Study for good measure. Then compare their progress at regular intervals. You We know who's going to win, but it's still a fun thought exercise.

When you compare the results, you'll be sure to remember that credit scores predict creditworthiness, not measure actual wealth, right?

One more thought. Unless you have ZERO credit cards (not likely if your credit score is that high), your credit report will show ALL current CC activity as "consumer debt", even though you pay it in full every month. And we mustachians love our credit cards. So useful for cash and travel rewards, not to mention churning.

A mortgage broker is a salesperson. If they want to blow your skirts up, that's fine, but this crowd is less easily impressed. Mostly though, it's DR were not impressed with and that's unlikely to change.

Oh, and that the fuck strikeout is mine and original. I don't want anyone to think it's a rule violation. We like our swear words here, but not everyone remembers that.

[Chris22]

Dave Ramsey says you shouldn't contribute to retirement until you're debt free except for the house, even forgoing employer matching. Meanwhile, he does NOT tell you stop tithing 10% to the church. Granted, I'm not religious so I'm biased to think tithing is strange, but if you're in a hair-on-fire debt situation, paying 10% of your income as essentially a club membership is not a smart financial move. If someone was donating 10% to Planned Parenthood or Amnesty International or some other non-church charity, he'd tell them to knock it off until they had some actual money in the bank.

His math is just really really bad. In general I'm fine with "debt snowball" until he is telling people to pay off their 0% debt and take on 15 year mortgages for no good reason.

And even worse, delaying 401k contributions and forgoing the employer match until you pay off that 0% (or even 2-3%) debt.

[Shwaa]

I always cringe when Ramsey bashes Fauci, Covid & Covid restrictions etc...doing everything he can short of calling it a fraud......and then 5 mins later someone calls in and says "I lost my dad a few weeks ago to Covid, and I am wondering what to do with his estate"

"I am so sorry, that's terrible"

[talltexan]

Pretty sure I've expressed my feelings about DR way upthread. I haven't kept up because I don't care about DR. It popped up in my feed today, so I got caught up. I did so because I just read that DR is coming to a major metropolitan mainstream radio station near me. (KSFO, to replace Chip Franklin. Someone please tell me Google is wrong.)

Anyway, this snippet cannot go unremarked upon:

Most dramatically, on his advice, I got a second job when I was 30 years old and still work there every weekend and on some weeknights.  I've made about $250,000 at that part-time job.  When I applied to buy a second house, the mortgage broker laughed at my application since he had basically never seen anyone in my position with zero consumer debt.  No student loans, no car loan, no credit card debt.  My credit score was over 800.

Kudos to you for getting and maintaining what is known in mustachian circles as  a "side hustle". However, I lol'd at the bolded part. Who the fuck do you think you're bragging to? Take a number and find your place in line, sir.

Your comment made me think of a fun social experiment. Take two recent college graduates with similar backgrounds and identical financial pictures. Let's make them the same race, gender, and give them the same degree from the same school, just to keep the field flat. Send one to DR's FP "University" and introduce the other to the MMM blog and forum. Have them start a Case Study for good measure. Then compare their progress at regular intervals. You We know who's going to win, but it's still a fun thought exercise.

Thought experiments like this are interesting, but I think at its core, this is relying on comparing a very blunt, coherent set of Ramsey practices ("Pay off Mortgage"; "don't use credit cards"; 'tithing to church won't affect your financial progress") with perhaps somewhat more vague notions of Mustachianism. ("Save more than 40% of your income"; "find a way to drive a car 1/4 as much as you were before"). @Dicey , you and I are obviously in the "Don't pay off your mortgage" club, so our ideas about the MMM movement may be more aligned than others on this thread.

My first reaction to this post was that you had in mind the idea that MMM-folks will advance more rapidly because of their (our) very high savings rates.

Dave Ramsey will often callers in the intense debt payoff period whom he suggests devote something like 30%-50% proportion of their cash flow to paying off consumer debt, though. While MMM advocates people sustain a 50% savings rate for 15 years, Ramsey typically only advocates that for something like 2 years. And all of this assumes that "Pay off the debt first" types aren't actively seeking additional income during that intense debt pay down period that they wouldn't seek out later.

[Chris Pascale]

I always cringe when Ramsey bashes Fauci, Covid & Covid restrictions etc...doing everything he can short of calling it a fraud......and then 5 mins later someone calls in and says "I lost my dad a few weeks ago to Covid, and I am wondering what to do with his estate"

"I am so sorry, that's terrible"

Makes me glad I haven't listened to him in a long time.

[talltexan]

I did happen to catch an episode with Ken Coleman and John Deloni where a caller wanted to know whether it made sense to quit his job to avoid a vaccine mandate. I suppose it makes sense that they couldn't implore him to just get the jab when their own workplace is being run so poorly by this measure.

[Shwaa]

I did happen to catch an episode with Ken Coleman and John Deloni where a caller wanted to know whether it made sense to quit his job to avoid a vaccine mandate. I suppose it makes sense that they couldn't implore him to just get the jab when their own workplace is being run so poorly by this measure.

 I remember that call specifically, I think  it was this past summer.  From what I remember Ken was towing the line more than John was with his reply.  John at least made an attempt to be a voice of reason/rationality/look at the science and decide what's best for you/  in his response. 

I listen solely for entertainment purposes, but I find myself tuning out more when Dave is actually hosting.  He is wearing on me. 

[OurTown]

Ugh.  People everywhere have gone nuts with the anti vax stuff.  That's popping up in the lo carb community too.  DR has always been a little hard to take. 

[talltexan]

I did happen to catch an episode with Ken Coleman and John Deloni where a caller wanted to know whether it made sense to quit his job to avoid a vaccine mandate. I suppose it makes sense that they couldn't implore him to just get the jab when their own workplace is being run so poorly by this measure.

 I remember that call specifically, I think  it was this past summer.  From what I remember Ken was towing the line more than John was with his reply.  John at least made an attempt to be a voice of reason/rationality/look at the science and decide what's best for you/  in his response. 

I listen solely for entertainment purposes, but I find myself tuning out more when Dave is actually hosting.  He is wearing on me.

I think Dr. John is excellent (and I probably mentioned this upthread). I also haven't been listening steadily since early 2020, so it's certainly possible he's said or done some stuff that is...less than excellent.

[Kris]

Ugh.  People everywhere have gone nuts with the anti vax stuff.  That's popping up in the lo carb community too.  DR has always been a little hard to take.

There’s actually a whole podcast about anti-vax conspiracy stuff as peddled and monetized in the yoga and wellness industries. It’s called Conspirituality. It’s fairly long-winded, but it’s also pretty fascinating.

[SwordGuy]

Then there’s this. Ugh.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/16/dave-ramsey-employee-covid-precaution-lawsuit/

Not the first time I've seen stories that he's a first class douchebag to work for.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Then there’s this. Ugh.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/16/dave-ramsey-employee-covid-precaution-lawsuit/

Not the first time I've seen stories that he's a first class douchebag to work for.

Thought the same but was also surprised that his business employs 900 people.

[calimom]

Then there’s this. Ugh.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/16/dave-ramsey-employee-covid-precaution-lawsuit/

Not the first time I've seen stories that he's a first class douchebag to work for.

Thought the same but was also surprised that his business employs 900 people.

I guess between producing the radio show, the Youtube channel, hawking the books, overseeing all the grassroots church stuff, the shady real estate deals, the seminars, the Ramsey Investment Advisors, the in-house legal team, not to mention all the minimum wage girls* holding it all together, it adds up to a lot of people.

*60 year-old-women.

[Chraurelius]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

[HPstache]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

False

[Dicey]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

False

I agree that Chraurelius may have been a bit dramatic, but how do you know their assertion is "false"?

[OtherJen]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

False

I agree that Chraurelius may have been a bit dramatic, but how do you know their assertion is "false"?

Yeah, we'll let the courts decide that one. It isn't the first such complaint Lampo/Ramsey Solutions has received. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dave-ramsey-fired-staffer-taking-covid-precautions-lawsuit-says-rcna8835

[Virtus3]

I think any plan that is able to help people get out of debt that otherwise wouldn't have (even if the math isn't perfect) is a good thing. But I firmly believe DR is a scumbag and I can't stand him.

[HPstache]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

False

I agree that Chraurelius may have been a bit dramatic, but how do you know their assertion is "false"?

Yeah, we'll let the courts decide that one. It isn't the first such complaint Lampo/Ramsey Solutions has received. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dave-ramsey-fired-staffer-taking-covid-precautions-lawsuit-says-rcna8835

Oh... so he is being accused and tried for murder?  No, he is not.  It's a wrongful termination suit.

It's ridiculous to call someone a murderer on a hunch that his mask policy may have caused a chain reaction a killed someone.   That is nonsense.   Show me proof that this happened then we will talk about how no court of law would ever call someone a murderer for a chain reaction of an infectious disease.   Otherwise Charaureleus is just making shit up, calling someone a murderer,  just because they don't agree with Dave Ramsey's politics.

Do I think Dave is is the wrong?  Yes.  He is probably going to lose a wrongful termination suit or it will be settled.  Do I think we should just go around outright calling people murderers with based on their poor mask policy that may have caused a chain reaction that killed someone?  I feel like this forum is better than that.

[OtherJen]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

False

I agree that Chraurelius may have been a bit dramatic, but how do you know their assertion is "false"?

Yeah, we'll let the courts decide that one. It isn't the first such complaint Lampo/Ramsey Solutions has received. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dave-ramsey-fired-staffer-taking-covid-precautions-lawsuit-says-rcna8835

Oh... so he is being accused and tried for murder?  No, he is not.  It's a wrongful termination suit.

It's ridiculous to call someone a murderer on a hunch that his mask policy may have caused a chain reaction a killed someone.   That is nonsense.   Show me proof that this happened then we will talk about how no court of law would ever call someone a murderer for a chain reaction of an infectious disease.   Otherwise Charaureleus is just making shit up, calling someone a murderer,  just because they don't agree with Dave Ramsey's politics.

Do I think Dave is is the wrong?  Yes.  He is probably going to lose a wrongful termination suit or it will be settled.  Do I think we should just go around outright calling people murderers with based on their poor mask policy that may have caused a chain reaction that killed someone?  I feel like this forum is better than that.

I agree with you that it is incorrect to call Dave a murderer. He's likely endangering his workforce but is not directly killing people.

[Metalcat]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

False

I agree that Chraurelius may have been a bit dramatic, but how do you know their assertion is "false"?

Yeah, we'll let the courts decide that one. It isn't the first such complaint Lampo/Ramsey Solutions has received. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dave-ramsey-fired-staffer-taking-covid-precautions-lawsuit-says-rcna8835

Oh... so he is being accused and tried for murder?  No, he is not.  It's a wrongful termination suit.

It's ridiculous to call someone a murderer on a hunch that his mask policy may have caused a chain reaction a killed someone.   That is nonsense.   Show me proof that this happened then we will talk about how no court of law would ever call someone a murderer for a chain reaction of an infectious disease.   Otherwise Charaureleus is just making shit up, calling someone a murderer,  just because they don't agree with Dave Ramsey's politics.

Do I think Dave is is the wrong?  Yes.  He is probably going to lose a wrongful termination suit or it will be settled.  Do I think we should just go around outright calling people murderers with based on their poor mask policy that may have caused a chain reaction that killed someone?  I feel like this forum is better than that.

I agree with you that it is incorrect to call Dave a murderer. He's likely endangering his workforce but is not directly killing people.

That said, it should not be called a "political opinion."

Workplace health and safety policies that knowingly put employees at risk are not a political opinion, they are avoidable workplace dangers that can reasonably be expected to result in possible, avoidable death.

That's not politics, that's reckless, irresponsible policy on behalf of an employer.

I don't care what the person's political leanings are, putting staff in avoidable danger is unacceptable.

[RetiredAt63]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

False

I agree that Chraurelius may have been a bit dramatic, but how do you know their assertion is "false"?

Yeah, we'll let the courts decide that one. It isn't the first such complaint Lampo/Ramsey Solutions has received. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dave-ramsey-fired-staffer-taking-covid-precautions-lawsuit-says-rcna8835

Oh... so he is being accused and tried for murder?  No, he is not.  It's a wrongful termination suit.

It's ridiculous to call someone a murderer on a hunch that his mask policy may have caused a chain reaction a killed someone.   That is nonsense.   Show me proof that this happened then we will talk about how no court of law would ever call someone a murderer for a chain reaction of an infectious disease.   Otherwise Charaureleus is just making shit up, calling someone a murderer,  just because they don't agree with Dave Ramsey's politics.

Do I think Dave is is the wrong?  Yes.  He is probably going to lose a wrongful termination suit or it will be settled.  Do I think we should just go around outright calling people murderers with based on their poor mask policy that may have caused a chain reaction that killed someone?  I feel like this forum is better than that.

I agree with you that it is incorrect to call Dave a murderer. He's likely endangering his workforce but is not directly killing people.

That said, it should not be called a "political opinion."

Workplace health and safety policies that knowingly put employees at risk are not a political opinion, they are avoidable workplace dangers that can reasonably be expected to result in possible, avoidable death.

That's not politics, that's reckless, irresponsible policy on behalf of an employer.

I don't care what the person's political leanings are, putting staff in avoidable danger is unacceptable.

Exactly,  Health and Safety regulations are not just for on the shop floor.  They apply to any workplace, including office situations. 

[LiveLean]

I did happen to catch an episode with Ken Coleman and John Deloni where a caller wanted to know whether it made sense to quit his job to avoid a vaccine mandate. I suppose it makes sense that they couldn't implore him to just get the jab when their own workplace is being run so poorly by this measure.

I heard this call and I thought they handled it well, without judgment. They did ask why the caller didn't wish to be vaccinated. They still didn't pass judgment - I don't remember the reason - but they then segued into a discussion of the caller's career, prospects of finding another job, etc.

[calimom]

I did happen to catch an episode with Ken Coleman and John Deloni where a caller wanted to know whether it made sense to quit his job to avoid a vaccine mandate. I suppose it makes sense that they couldn't implore him to just get the jab when their own workplace is being run so poorly by this measure.

I heard this call and I thought they handled it well, without judgment. They did ask why the caller didn't wish to be vaccinated. They still didn't pass judgment - I don't remember the reason - but they then segued into a discussion of the caller's career, prospects of finding another job, etc.

I remember a caller who worked in healthcare refusing to be vaccinated - either for political reasons or the usual "no one tells ME what to do" reasons. And of course they had debt and no other job offers, not to mention no FU money.  but Dave more or less told them to hold fast to their moral principles.

While it's hard to lose healthcare workers during this time or any time really, do we want people who don't hold firm ideas about public health and wellbeing  providing care to the general population?

[the_fixer]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

False

I agree that Chraurelius may have been a bit dramatic, but how do you know their assertion is "false"?

Yeah, we'll let the courts decide that one. It isn't the first such complaint Lampo/Ramsey Solutions has received. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dave-ramsey-fired-staffer-taking-covid-precautions-lawsuit-says-rcna8835

Oh... so he is being accused and tried for murder?  No, he is not.  It's a wrongful termination suit.

It's ridiculous to call someone a murderer on a hunch that his mask policy may have caused a chain reaction a killed someone.   That is nonsense.   Show me proof that this happened then we will talk about how no court of law would ever call someone a murderer for a chain reaction of an infectious disease.   Otherwise Charaureleus is just making shit up, calling someone a murderer,  just because they don't agree with Dave Ramsey's politics.

Do I think Dave is is the wrong?  Yes.  He is probably going to lose a wrongful termination suit or it will be settled.  Do I think we should just go around outright calling people murderers with based on their poor mask policy that may have caused a chain reaction that killed someone?  I feel like this forum is better than that.

While not a charge for murder the employee is suing the company for the death of her husband after she contracted covid at work then her husband caught it and died.

https://abc7.com/amp/sees-candy-lawsuit-covid-candies/11049968/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nereo]

He's a murderer.  He refused to allow employees to wear masks, and discourages getting vaccines.  With 900 workers, someone or a member of their family has probably died.

False

I agree that Chraurelius may have been a bit dramatic, but how do you know their assertion is "false"?

Yeah, we'll let the courts decide that one. It isn't the first such complaint Lampo/Ramsey Solutions has received. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dave-ramsey-fired-staffer-taking-covid-precautions-lawsuit-says-rcna8835

Oh... so he is being accused and tried for murder?  No, he is not.  It's a wrongful termination suit.

It's ridiculous to call someone a murderer on a hunch that his mask policy may have caused a chain reaction a killed someone.   That is nonsense.   Show me proof that this happened then we will talk about how no court of law would ever call someone a murderer for a chain reaction of an infectious disease.   Otherwise Charaureleus is just making shit up, calling someone a murderer,  just because they don't agree with Dave Ramsey's politics.

Do I think Dave is is the wrong?  Yes.  He is probably going to lose a wrongful termination suit or it will be settled.  Do I think we should just go around outright calling people murderers with based on their poor mask policy that may have caused a chain reaction that killed someone?  I feel like this forum is better than that.

While not a charge for murder the employee is suing the company for the death of her husband after she contracted covid at work then her husband caught it and died.

https://abc7.com/amp/sees-candy-lawsuit-covid-candies/11049968/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the difference between a civil law suit and a criminal one. Civil law suits have a lower burden of proof and center around what a reasonable person should have done (by a “preponderance of the evidence” rather than “beyond a reasonable doubt”). Critically it does not involve intent. For a criminal suit the burden is to show intent or a willful disregard for the law.

[mastrr]

What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?

Dave Ramsey is the GOAT

[The Guru]

From the NBC News story: “Ramsey believed taking preventative measures [against Covid] were against the will of God,” the complaint stated.

Ramsey also is known to carry a handgun and supposedly brandished it at a meeting on at least one occasion. So much for trusting God for protection.

[Virtus3]

From the NBC News story: “Ramsey believed taking preventative measures [against Covid] were against the will of God,” the complaint stated.

Ramsey also is known to carry a handgun and supposedly brandished it at a meeting on at least one occasion. So much for trusting God for protection.

We just need to figure out how to make masks as cool as guns to this group.

[MoneyGoatee]

Dave Ramsey is one of few Internet finance gurus that actually have people vouching for the effectiveness for his advice (for years).  Internet is filled with fly-by-night self-appointed gurus who give terrible advice and sell courses that don't work.  Some are outright frauds and many are questionable advice-giver ("Buy individual stocks that pay high dividends!", etc.).  So I have no problem with Ramsey at all, considering the number of garbage people out there.

[DadJokes]

Dave Ramsey is one of few Internet finance gurus that actually have people vouching for the effectiveness for his advice (for years).  Internet is filled with fly-by-night self-appointed gurus who give terrible advice and sell courses that don't work.  Some are outright frauds and many are questionable advice-giver ("Buy individual stocks that pay high dividends!", etc.).  So I have no problem with Ramsey at all, considering the number of garbage people out there.

You should read this thread. Just because he isn't a scammy as some doesn't mean that he isn't a garbage person as well.

[Dicey]

Good 'ol compassionate DR is at it again:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/radio-host-dave-ramsey-insists-223911331.html

[Gronnie]

Good 'ol compassionate DR is at it again:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/radio-host-dave-ramsey-insists-223911331.html

I don't think I disagree with him on this point.

[DadJokes]

Good 'ol compassionate DR is at it again:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/radio-host-dave-ramsey-insists-223911331.html

I don't think I disagree with him on this point.

Seriously, there are a lot of reasons why DR is a bad Christian. This example is pretty low on the list.

[talltexan]

Ramsey argues in The Legacy Journey that wealth carries with it the obligation to be managed effectively, and he cites bible verses in making this argument. He also argues that wealthy people are called to be generous to others.

[talltexan]

In a separate thought from the discussion of the rental properties, I happened to observe on FB that one of my HS friends recently started a new job working in Analytics for Ramsey Solutions. I'll see if I can extract any juicy information from him.

[OtherJen]

In a separate thought from the discussion of the rental properties, I happened to observe on FB that one of my HS friends recently started a new job working in Analytics for Ramsey Solutions. I'll see if I can extract any juicy information from him.

He may not be willing to say much, even if he does have juicy info. From this Tennessean article:

Ramsey’s return to in-person work frustrated Heather Fulk. She has asthma, which puts her at higher risk if infected with COVID-19. After learning employees were being called back to headquarters, she made what she thought was an innocuous comment in a private Facebook post.

“Jon’s [Heather's spouse] company [Ramsey Solutions] wants to bring all 900 employees back asap when a majority can do their work from home,” she wrote on April 20. “I do *not* understand how people don’t see we are setting ourselves up for a huge second wave. Ugh, people make me so angry.”

Before long, Jon got a call from his supervisor who said a co-worker had reported Heather’s comment. They had a screenshot of the post, sent by the co-worker’s spouse.

A few weeks later, Jon was fired. In his exit interview, Armando Lopez, head of human resources at Ramsey, confirmed that the cause was his wife’s social media comment, according to a recording of the meeting.