RE Overseas with kids?

[stuckinmn]

I recently started reading this blog and discovered that I'm already FI or pretty close to it thanks to my natural state of quasi-mustachianism, though in hindsight I'm awarding myself plenty of face punches as I read more and more articles.

Once I convince my wife that the 4% rule means RE is possible, I'm looking to pack us all up this summer and go overseas for a year or two before returning back to the US.  We have 2 kids that would be entering 4th and 6th grades.

Has anyone here done this or at least have good ideas on locations to live?  At a minimum it would have to be cheap (does that even need to be said on this forum?) and safe.   Bonuses would be that it is warm as I'm tired of Minnesota winters, fairly accessible from the US so family/friends could visit, and has a non-English language that we are all forced to learn.

I'm also assuming we would be home-schooling so any advice on the best way to do that and what programs are available would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.     

[luigi49]

do you have any thoughts on where you want to go?

[stuckinmn]

Luigi- 

I'd love lots of places, but it is hard to tell if the non-tourist areas where I would want to live are both cheap and safe.  Off the top of my head any of the following sound appealing: Costa Rica, Panama, Chile, Belize, Puerto Rico, England, Spain, Portugal, Germany.   However, I'm considering anything that meets the basic requirements and then narrow it down from there.   

[Eric]

You should read this regarding the 4% withdrawal rate.  It includes a link to the updated Trinity Study from which the number came:

http://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/12/07/stocks-part-xiii-withdrawal-rates-how-much-can-i-spend-anyway/

And of course this one:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/29/how-much-do-i-need-for-retirement/

That should help give you the tools to convince your wife.

I'd think all of your listed places have cheap and safe living areas.  Personally I'd substitute Mexico for Puerto Rico if I was making my list.  I just finished reading the Go Curry Cracker blog about this couple slow traveling through Mexico and Latin America.  The plan was to keep moving down through South America but they keep finding so many places they like in Mexico that they've stayed put for months at a time.  Sample:

http://www.gocurrycracker.com/our-1000-a-month-home-in-san-miguel-de-allende-mexico/

Make sure you consider tourist visa limits when you're planning.

[2527]

I think a year off traveling overseas with kids this age is very doable, especially if you return to the same schools you started from.  There are lots of online schools these days.  If you do this, please start a thread and post about it. 

[milla]

We plan to take our kids to Argentina for at least a year when they're older. Maybe when the youngest is 7-8. It's not super cheap but that's where I was born and we're gonna make them absorb Spanish whether they like it or not. I might work while there but my family owns a lot of property and finding a place to live won't be a problem. It's a mild climate and there are sooo many things to do and see. Very European culture. It's very far away from the US (few friends visiting) and it's pretty expensive to fly there, though...

[Jed]

Hi stuckinmn.  We're pseudo neighbors as I'm currently stuck in WI (and am originally from MN).

Anyway, your post could have been written by me about 6 months ago (minus the homeschooling bit).  My wife and I have young boys that are in a Spanish immersion program at our local school and we thought it would be great to move to a foreign country for a while.  We considered Latin America but ultimately chose Spain.

Spain was always destination #1 on our list but was confirmed after chatting with a few teachers at our school that were from Lima, Santiago, Quito, and Honduras they suggested that sending our kids to just any public school in those areas probably wasn't the best (safest) decision and that we'd be better off sending them off to private school.

The issue for us with private schools is twofold: 1) they can be really pricey 2) they often teach a good portion of classes in English which would kind of defeat the purpose of the experience and becoming fluent in Spanish.

Just this week we signed a lease and bought one-way plane tickets to Granada where we found a local public school our kids will be attending.  It also doesn't hurt that it resides in southern Spain and they say in April and May there are days when you can downhill ski and hit the beach in the same day.

[stuckinmn]

Buck-

Funny you mention Granada because that was exactly where I was picturing when I said Spain. I visited there right after college and loved the place.

My kids don't speak a lick of Spanish so public school would not be an option, at least not right away.  But it sure would be a great place for quick trips to the mountains and Mediterranean in between teaching breaks.

Do you mind sharing what your lease and other anticipated expenses might be?   

Congrats on the move and please feel free to pm me with updates on your journey as I'd love to hear them as well as any advice you may have once you get there.

[Albert]

I'm not familiar with South America, but 80-90% of Europe would be safe enough as long as you purposely don't choose the worst neighbourhoods to live in. South Europe is significantly cheaper than the north though and for American learning Spanish is probably more useful than any other language. I would probably choose a coastal location (Granada is inland), Alicante perhaps or Valencia.

[Jed]

Funny you mention Granada because that was exactly where I was picturing when I said Spain. I visited there right after college and loved the place.

My kids don't speak a lick of Spanish so public school would not be an option, at least not right away.  But it sure would be a great place for quick trips to the mountains and Mediterranean in between teaching breaks.

Do you mind sharing what your lease and other anticipated expenses might be?   

No, not at all.  The lease is for 1000 Euro per month (~$1360 given today's conversion).  On its surface, this was about 200 Euro more than I wanted, but how often can you say you live in a 1000+ year old neighborhood UNESCO World Heritage site?  We can afford it, has 3 bedrooms, and is a single family home right near the Alhambra (in the Albaicin/Albayzin Moorish quarter of town).

I've been keeping a journal/blog at the link in my profile if you have additional interest.  I suspect I'll pick up the posts considerably once we get there in July.  Until then, I post about personal finance and the preparation for this adventure.

[ch12]

I'm not familiar with South America, but 80-90% of Europe would be safe enough as long as you purposely don't choose the worst neighbourhoods to live in. South Europe is significantly cheaper than the north though and for American learning Spanish is probably more useful than any other language. I would probably choose a coastal location (Granada is inland), Alicante perhaps or Valencia.

South America
I am familiar with (EDIT: part of) South America, and frankly it's sketchy. I studied abroad in Quito, Ecuador; it's beautiful and wonderful to be in the tropics. I've got a friend hanging out in Chile right now http://southlatitude.wordpress.com/, and I miss the Southern Hemisphere when I read her posts. I miss having a touch of indigenous culture and the beauty of the cloud forest, rain forest, and the Galapagos.

When we jumped into the ocean to hang out with the dolphins who were following the wake of our boat:

When we were in the cloud forest:



I'll probably go back at some point, but I would not take young children there. One of the kids who was also studying at the Ecuadorian university got mugged 7 times while we were there.

Spain
I also studied abroad in Valencia, and I loved it. It was wonderful to be a 10-15 bus ride from the warm sea. I did my homework on the beach.

Buck and Mrs. Buck chose Granada for really good reasons (see http://bucking-the-trend.com/moving-to-pomegranate/ ), and it's a pretty good place for their kids.

At a minimum it would have to be cheap (does that even need to be said on this forum?) and safe.   Bonuses would be that it is warm as I'm tired of Minnesota winters, fairly accessible from the US so family/friends could visit, and has a non-English language that we are all forced to learn.

Spain is cheap relative to other parts of Europe, and it definitely won't be hit by the same polar vortices that we've been seeing this winter. You aren't too far away from Africa.



Homeschooling while abroad and RE is a very very interesting topic to me. I'm interested in homeschooling, traveling, and FIRE. I have simply never put them all in one place before. Thanks for the inspiration, stuckinMN!

[milla]

"I am familiar with South America, and frankly it's sketchy. I studied abroad in Quito, Ecuador..."

I'm sorry, but you're familiar with Quito, Ecuador. That does not make you an authority on South America as a whole.

[ch12]

"I am familiar with South America, and frankly it's sketchy. I studied abroad in Quito, Ecuador..."

I'm sorry, but you're familiar with Quito, Ecuador. That does not make you an authority on South America as a whole.

I agree. I'm not an authority on South America as a whole. I'm only familiar with Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, and Chile. I'll correct my post to reflect that.

[Albert]

Just out of curiosity which areas of South America would be the most safe?

[ch12]

Milla is welcome to correct me if she wants to on my take.

Of the countries with which I am familiar, I'd say Chile is probably the safest. It was Buck's backup for if his family didn't end up going to Spain. My host mom was Chilean, and she had terrible stories from living under crazy governments; Chile has significantly improved since then. A bunch of my friends have been in and through Chile, and they've had positive experiences. Like I said, one of my friends is staying there for a few months.

They have a pretty cool program where they'll give you a visa and pay you $40,000 (no equity required) for doing a startup. http://startupchile.org/about/the-program/

[2527]

You may want to take a couple weeks vacation approximating what you plan to do for the year, just to see if the kids handle it well.

[Argyle]

My family lived abroad for two years, in a community with lots of other people with children who didn't know the language.  These kids started school (at various levels, most elementary school) with no language training whatsoever.  The key is to live in a community where there are lots of people from overseas, so the school is not fazed by having a child who doesn't know the language.  Anyway, all those kids picked up the language at school more quickly than you can imagine.  That's why I'd suggest you consider sending your kids to a (safe, good) local school.  The kid who found it hardest to learn to speak a European language was Japanese (7 years old).  First they listen very carefully for a couple of months.  Then they understand well; and finally they learn to speak it.  At the end of the first year, the Japanese kid could understand anything that was said to him in the foreign language, and could speak rapidly but with an accent.  By the end of the second year he sounded like a native.  There really is nothing like it for language teaching.  In addition the kids will have automatic friends from the host country and from other places.

[Jed]

My family lived abroad for two years, in a community with lots of other people with children who didn't know the language.

If you don't mind me being nosy, Argyle, I have 3 questions.  Just for my curiosity sake...
1.  Where were you located for those 2 years?
2.  What brought you there?
3.  Would you do it again?

[RootofGood]

We have certainly though about it but haven't quite got to the planning stage yet.  We have 3 kids from age 2 to 8, and 2 of them in elementary school.  I don't know if we would homeschool, private school or public school (I guess it depends on how mobile we are and where we would end up).

I've spent a lot of time in Mexico and I think it is once again safe (enough) in many parts to serve as a good overseas home and is only a short flight from the US.  And it's cheap. 

We've been to Uruguay and Argentina and both would be decent places to live, although Mexico seemed cheaper.  And Argentina seems a little crazy right now with hyperinflation. 

I love following Go Curry Cracker and Buck's blog since they are doing something I've thought about doing my whole life. 

[Daleth]

I'd love lots of places, but it is hard to tell if the non-tourist areas where I would want to live are both cheap and safe.  Off the top of my head any of the following sound appealing: Costa Rica, Panama, Chile, Belize, Puerto Rico, England, Spain, Portugal, Germany.   However, I'm considering anything that meets the basic requirements and then narrow it down from there.

England is neither warm nor cheap. Portugal and Spain are warm and reasonably cheap, AND, especially in Spain, you have the bonus of great public schools for your kids (*and* they come back bilingual--how awesome is that) and first-world medical care. No doubt you'll get first-world medical care and good schools in Lisbon and maybe Porto, but I don't know about the rest of Portugal. It's a beautiful place, though.

If I were contemplating this trip, and bringing kids, I would also factor one additional detail into the safety calculations: Does the country have horrendously deadly spiders and/or snakes? That's what knocks out, for me, all the Central/South American countries you listed. Why learn Spanish while being stalked by a Brazilian wandering spider--present in Costa Rica, Panama, Chile and throughout South America east of the Andes--when you can learn it without even being in the same country as such a spider? :)
Seriously, check out how insanely aggressive (and huge) these spiders are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5XO7uyTZTQ
Oh, and they like to hide in houses, clothes, cars, shoes, boots...!

And here's some info on getting the appropriate visa to live in Spain (see "Retirement Visa" or "Residence Visa for Non-Lucrative Purposes"):
http://internationalliving.com/countries/spain/spain-visa-and-residency-information/
You could also just go on the 90-day tourist visa (a misnomer since for Americans it's not a visa--it's just a stamp you get in your passport when you arrive), but I'm not sure that would enable your kids to attend school there--I'm guessing not. It sounds like that's not a priority for you, but it could be an amazing experience for your kids, and it's free...

[Albert]

Australia has super venomous spiders and snakes, but is it really such an unsafe place for kids? I think not…

[Daleth]

Australia has super venomous spiders and snakes, but is it really such an unsafe place for kids? I think not…

I wouldn't go to Australia either. :)
I'm all over Europe and parts of Asia, though.

[unitasking]

We are currently on a mini-retirement with two young kids in Chile.
It is a great time to be here. Very safe, fantastic weather, great metro, very walkable and bikeable city.
Also the Chilean Peso like all other emerging market economies has weakened compared to the USD, so your money goes farther. You are going to be spending a lot if you go to a country that uses the EURO.

[RootofGood]

We are currently on a mini-retirement with two young kids in Chile.
It is a great time to be here. Very safe, fantastic weather, great metro, very walkable and bikeable city.
Also the Chilean Peso like all other emerging market economies has weakened compared to the USD, so your money goes farther. You are going to be spending a lot if you go to a country that uses the EURO.

Sounds awesome.  Chile made the list for our 1-2 month summer vacation with kids this year.  I haven't been following the Chilean peso, but good to hear it's weak vs the dollar.  A little foreign currency arbitrage can definitely help make it more affordable.  I've seen some decent 2-3 BR apartments in Santiago for very affordable weekly rents (on airbnb) and figure a more diligent search would reveal even better options.  We'll be traveling during June-July.  How's the weather that time of year in Santiago (or other parts of Chile?). 

[johnintaiwan]

Come and check out Taiwan. I am pretty sure you can get a visa very easily if you plan on studying Chinese at one of the many recognized language schools here. i dont think you are required to study for very many hours each month. I am not sure whether you would be able to utilize the public schools here though. You can also extend a visitor visa for up to 120 days i think. So you could take a few days trip to another country around here (relatively cheap) every 3-4 months.

It has a very low cost of living (if outside of Taipei), is a great place to use as a home base to visit other countries in SE Asia, and has the built in ability to teach English as a side hustle (pay is very high per hour) if interested. It is also nice that you can use all of the Chinese that you are learning, but can easily get by with only English if needed.