Author Topic: What have youth sports become?  (Read 8395 times)

Zamboni

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What have youth sports become?
« on: November 15, 2015, 10:38:04 PM »
Where to begin?

I grew up in the 70's when many kids played soccer or baseball through their local parks and rec and maybe swam on the swim team at the local public pool. Signing up and paying the fairly minimal fee meant you got to be on a team and hang out with teammates from your local neighborhood, practicing at the local park. Just by luck of the draw of both players and coaching experience, some teams very strong and some less skilled. Play a few different sports and you were likely to end up on both types of teams, learning how to win and lose with grace. For the most part, parents would attend games sporadically based upon who was on car pool duty.

My junior high and high school somehow didn't even have cuts, so 40 kids on the 8th grade basketball B-squad stayed after school to work on passes and jump shots in between semi-organized scrimmages against each other. I think my sophomore year the sophomore girls volleyball team had 30+ girls on it (in addition to about 15 each on JV and varsity), all miraculously coached by one lady who came straight from her 9-5 job to practice that was held after the JV and varsity practice. We were all encouraged to join the track and field team, which again had no cuts, so I learned to high jump and throw discus and run the 400m as fast as I could (I was horrible at all of these things and finished dead last in every race, but it was fun going through the motions and boy did I stay fit!)  Sure, there were always a few figure skaters and other odd sports who had parents shelling out the dough, but most of us enjoyed our sports with maximum gain and minimal cash outlay and pressure.

Fast forward to today:
As our nation gets fatter and fatter, fewer and fewer students get to play sports through parks and rec or at school. For profit sports "clubs" have popped up everywhere, and if you don't play expensive "club ball," well then you probably won't make your school team. And I mean team, singular.

I'll use my own children's school as an example. There are nearly 2000 students in this middle school (6th, 7th, and 8th graders). 6th graders may not play sports. For the remaining ~1300 in 7th and 8th grade, there are 15 slots each for boys and girls basketball, 12 slots for girls volleyball, etc. You get the idea. So, by rough math, if you want to play basketball or volleyball, you have about a 1-3% chance of making any spot on the team. As you might imagine, the kids that make the football team overlap severely with the group who makes the basketball team, etc.

The rest of the kids? No sports for you. It is sickening. My kids made the teams, but I am still sickened. Last year I went to the school and volunteered to coach an additional team (I do not want to coach my own child's team) so that more kids could enjoy learning the sport that I played in college, but my offer was declined because "the other schools only keep one team each, so they wouldn't have anyone to play" and also "there are only 15 uniforms." Um, they can play each other in practice, right? Christ, it's not rocket science, people. 83 kids tried out for those 15 uniforms. Nearly half were cut in less than 2 hours. Another 20 by the end of the second day. And everyone who was left was fairly skilled and/or talented, but a bunch of them got cut anyway. And half of those who made the team will ride pine in their fancy uniforms, because winning is so much more fucking important than player development and fun when you are coaching 12 and 13 year olds.

So disgusted with the US public schools about this. No wonder we are becoming such a bunch of fatties.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 05:51:08 AM by Zamboni »

minority_finance_mo

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2015, 12:11:17 AM »
Not to mention the rising cost of sports. I come from a low-income household. I got to play basketball because I was able to afford the $95 fee it took to purchase the team uniform. Football? Tried out, made the team and had to decline as the fee for the season was well near $500. That's at a public high school. My friends who played with private institutions paid more than that.

david51

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2015, 12:21:20 AM »
expensive

cerat0n1a

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2015, 12:40:38 AM »
Wow. Complete opposite to here in Britain. My kids have the opportunity to play just about any sport they want, for typically not very much money. Possibly a bit different in London or the south east, where a lot of sports fields have been sold off for housing.

The key difference is that much of this is organized outside of school, usually by local clubs (i.e. the soccer club has a bunch of kids teams, the rugby club has a bunch of kids teams, the cricket club has a bunch of kids teams, same for track & field, tennis and lots of other things). So it relies on adults (often parents) giving up their time to volunteer and schools etc. making their facilities available to the public out of school hours.

mancityfan

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2015, 03:45:42 AM »
Youth sports in the US is all about the money. Just follow the money. It is a gravy train. There is an elitism developing that gets worse by the year. Clubs even use terms such as Elite to describe their teams. I am a soccer referee and ref around 200 games a year at all levels. Despite enjoying the challenge of doing higher level games, I feel myself gravitating to the younger recreational levels, because there I still see kids enjoying themselves, and just being kids. From 11 year old players on, it becomes more serious, with travel teams, tryouts etc. The resulting levels of expectation from kids and parents frankly becomes delusional, and they quickly lose perspective. Between 14-17 the kids start to speak up for themselves and many turn away from the game.

Zamboni

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2015, 06:23:23 AM »
Youth sports in the US is all about the money. Just follow the money. It is a gravy train. There is an elitism developing that gets worse by the year. Clubs even use terms such as Elite to describe their teams. I am a soccer referee and ref around 200 games a year at all levels. Despite enjoying the challenge of doing higher level games, I feel myself gravitating to the younger recreational levels, because there I still see kids enjoying themselves, and just being kids. From 11 year old players on, it becomes more serious, with travel teams, tryouts etc. The resulting levels of expectation from kids and parents frankly becomes delusional, and they quickly lose perspective. Between 14-17 the kids start to speak up for themselves and many turn away from the game.


I guess I'm glad not to be the only one who feels this way. It has definitely turned from recreation that is good for kids into an industry for feathering the nests of adults. Elementary schools are down to having one 15 min recess per day and gym class only once per week. Seriously. As I noted above, only a tiny few get to play sports now. One of the coaches who did the cuts this year had the gall to tweet "Parents, let your kids fail." Jeez, dude, I'm sorry for being impolite, but you are really an insensitive jerk.

Meanwhile, my kids, who are still little kids in their heads but are big and strong on the outside, have been getting pestered unmercilessly by the middle school coaches. "You are coming back to this school next year, right? We really want you back. You are coming back, right?" It seems that there are county plans in the worksto reassign our neighborhood to a different school closer to our house, which makes sense because the currently assigned school is overcrowded and ridiculously far away. One of the coaches has asked me about it no less that THREE times, and somehow my child has now been brainwashed into thinking that the other school is "ghetto," "has gangs," and "all fo the kids there are on drugs." None of this is true, of course, but unfortunately neither has even a decent track record for teaching kids ALGEBRA, which is something I actually care about. It is just fucking brain washing by self-interested adults with no morals. Dammit, I am so sick of this.

College sports have been corrupt for many years, and AAU has corruption scandal after corruption scandal to the point where it doesn't even make the news anymore. Just the parking fees alone at an event that my daughter played in this summer generated millions of dollars for someone. One of my children just played on a team that came from no where to win a "national championship", which brought the cockroaches, slimeballs, and locusts out of the woodwork in the guise of "sponsorship." Really, these guys are exploiters of the worst sort. Of pre-adolescent children.

Oooh, but they might get an athletic scholarship someday! You are so lucky! Reality check: it costs thousands of dollars a year to play on these teams, and there don't seem to be any low cost options instead. The basketball might be free this year thanks to the "investment" of the slimeballs and locusts, but that feels even worse. I contemplate pulling the plug on this whole charade every year because the money would be better invested in a 529. I'd be truly lucky if the state paid enough salary to hire decent math and English teachers so that my kids will be academically well-prepared for college and then a career as a thinking person. But they don't. We are last in the fucking nation on that.

begood

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 06:50:04 AM »
I know a lot of people here would question our choice to send our kid to a private school, but at her middle school they have still have two recesses all the way through eighth grade, and every kid has gym class every day. In sixth grade, they do rotations where they try out the different sports, then in seventh and eighth grade EVERY kid plays on a team every season. Mine chose cross-country for fall, basketball for winter, and track and field for spring. She'll do more of the same in high school - two seasons of competitive sports are required for ALL students. Now, it's true that we're absolutely paying for that opportunity with our tuition, but I like that 1) they get exercise as part of the school day every day; and 2) because everyone participates, there's less division between jocks and nonjocks in the social strata.

Apples

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 07:09:55 AM »
Just to offer a different perspective, lest all the international people think the entire U.S. is crazy...

My school has about 125 kids per grade.  The high school fields football, soccer, tennis, cross country, basketball, wrestling, track, and baseball for boys.  It has cheerleading, tennis, soccer, cross country, volleyball, field hockey, basketball, track, and softball for girls.  A few of the teams have cuts, and there is a 9th grade team for football, wrestling, and basketball.  But generally 90% of the people who want to play the sport will get to play the sport.  Every team will have 10-30% of it's starters be kids that have played club ball growing up, and they are usually the stars of the team.  Sports are free to play, mostly because the parents do fund raising every year (like every person give $20 or sell this thing, so we don't have to charge for sports).  In my graduating class, 51% of the students had earned a varsity letter in a sport by senior year, so a lot of kids were participating.  Varsity games cost $5 for parents to attend and $3 for students, only if they're in the high school stadium.  All other games are free.  We have over 40% of the school on free or reduced lunch and breakfast program...if we went to charging for extracurriculars there is a very large percentage of the school population that would either get a voucher and not pay anyway or probably not be able to play.  I know I had several teammates in h.s. that had a job in addition to being on the team in order to buy their clothes and school lunches, in addition to a car and gas and insurance.

Uniforms last 7 years at the high school level, then get passed down to the middle school for 7 more years if possible.  The middle school only has football, basketball, wrestling, track, cheerleading, volleyball, and field hockey.  The school runs out of field space for practices, or there would be more sports.  The lack of teams has led to more soccer, tennis, baseball, and softball players getting into club sports at a young age.  In the tradition of all rural schools, the kids that are good at sports are generally the most popular.  At least 3-4 sports make it to the state competition every year.  Also, we have gym two times a week up through graduation, required for everyone.  Also, club sports are the main way to pursue playing in college-it's where you will be scouted.  So that adds pressure for a lot of kids to think about pursuing a club ball career, if they are considering playing seriously in college.

Club sports are picking up steam and I know in highly populated areas they are absolutely insane, but there are still pockets of schools with sports as a regular extracurricular, without charging the extra fees.  Of course, none of the extracurriculars charge fees to participate, though several have the aforementioned fundraising.

ETA:  We only have one middle and high school in the district, so there's no worry by the coaches that kids are going to get redistricted or leave.  I've only known two people to leave the school for better sports opportunities, and both were award Division 1 scholarships in team sports where being on a much better team at a larger school got them seen.  And they both trained with semi pro teams in the area in their down time.  They were wayyyy better than the average student at our school.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 07:12:41 AM by Apples »

nereo

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2015, 07:30:52 AM »
I was heavily involved in school sports when I was a student and for the last decade I've been involved on the booster-board side.
I agree that it's all about the money, but more to the point it's about budget cuts, unions and parental involvement.


With some rare exceptions (e.g. football teams with a large community supporting it) high school sports cost the school a lot of money.  There's liability insurance, equipment costs, infrastructure costs (playing fields, lights, pool/rink/track time) and coaching costs.  When a school is hit with budget cuts one of the first things on the chopping block is sports teams.  It's a fairly obvious decision decision really - when faced with cutting academic courses or sports teams, which do you think an educator is going to favor?
Because varsity teams at least recoup some of their costs through ticket-sales, the JV/2nd-string/non-competitive teams get the ax first.  That means only the true athletes have a chance of making the teams.

Then there's the ongoing problem of finding coaches.  Along with liability insurance and venue rental, one of the biggest expenses is paying the coaches for ~10-20hrs/week.  On the booster-board we frequently encounter teacher's unions that won't allow their union members to work 'extra hours' without 'fair compensation'(read: overtime pay).  The results is that there's a constant lack of teacher-coaches.  Many programs either get cancelled or limp along because the school can't/won't pay even a minimum hourly wage, and there aren't enough qualified volunteers.

I agree that many school systems have abysmal sports programs.  IMO it all comes down to the $ though.

coppertop

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2015, 10:14:17 AM »
The parents are to blame for this; if they refused to "pay to play," there would be no market for these expensive sports teams and they'd either cease to exist or operate for less money.  My SIL and BIL fell into the trap of thinking their kids would get scholarships.  The kids had some talent and always made the teams, but none of their four kids cared to play their sport in college.  One of my nieces said her parents "burned her out."  They were living their lives vicariously through their children and pushed them so hard that the kids were sick of it by twelfth grade. 

BeardedLady

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2015, 11:31:52 AM »
I went to one of the largest public high schools in the US, and there were no cuts for track or cross country. Football and swimming also did not have cuts, but they still had tryouts. Some other sports had cuts, but they always had at least a varsity, JV, and a freshman team for every sport. Freshman team cuts were rare.

I think it is the club teams that are really out of hand, at least in the midwest. Parents paying hundreds to tote their 10-year-olds around the country for tournaments 5+ times per season is ridiculous.

mm1970

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2015, 12:38:12 PM »
Quote
So disgusted with the US public schools about this. No wonder we are becoming such a bunch of fatties.

This is a tricky thing.  I went to a HS that only had about 100 kids per grade, so there were few, if any, cuts in sports.  The uniforms were 20 years old, we raised money when they needed to be replaced.  The school budget covered the buses to go to away games.

What do you expect in a middle school with 1300 students competing for 15 spots?  Do you expect a public school to have a budget for 3x as many teams?  Especially when other schools don't have those teams?

1.  The budget is not there. I've seen our local school budgets.  WE DON'T EVEN HAVE MONEY FOR SCIENCE, MUSIC, PE, AND COMPUTERS.  Do you expect a budget for 6th grade soccer?

2.  The volunteers are not there.  If there is no money for a sports team or coach, then you  need a volunteer.

What is the expectation for schools these days anyway?  I didn't play (and stick with) a sport until 9th grade.  To me, sports is about fitness, and being part of a team, and discipline, and skill. But it's not a requirement. I'm happy if my kid is comfortable enough to throw a frisbee, play catch, kick a soccer ball around with his friends.

So why the club sports?  I don't know, I guess it's a competition thing.  One of my best friends asked me when I was going to "let" my kid play sports.  What do you mean...let him?  See, her son was in soccer.  At first, age 5, he didn't like it because he wasn't good at it.  They didn't let him quit.  Then he got better, and liked it, and now he's in AYSO and traveling soccer, at 10.  So, let me see - 2 afternoons a week, plus weekends, plus travel on the weekends?  How is that fun?

But I see her point.
There's no soccer for 5 year olds at the school.
Our elementary school has "school soccer" starting in 3rd grade.  3rd grade co-ed, 4th grade boys/ girls.  How does that work if you've never played before?
Firstly, they have to have a parent volunteer coach, or it doesn't happen.  So they need a few coaches for the different teams.
Second, you have to get to the games.  At least it's only 1 day a week.  But our school does not qualify for a bus. So you need parents willing to drive their kids to the park.
When my son was 6, he had a baby brother.  I didn't have the time or energy for carting around kids after school, especially with a full time job.

What about baseball?  There is no school baseball. If you want baseball, you do club baseball or YMCA baseball.  Same with soccer until 3rd grade.  Lacrosse.  Basketball.

Why should the elementary schools be required to provide teams?  When they cannot even afford a freaking science curriculum?

If you wait until middle school, then it's pretty much too late.

I'm fine with paying for...swim lessons, baseball, a small soccer league.  If you can't afford it?  Big deal.  There are plenty of other opportunities for fitness.  Lots of people do "pick up" soccer in the parks, or they go to the beach, or they go for hikes or walks, or they ride their bikes. Organized sports aren't the be all and end all.

teacherwithamustache

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2015, 11:07:22 AM »
A few comments:

1 a shameless plug for my nonprofit organization. www.tinyurl.com/2014fbshowcase or www.srfbshowcase.blogspot.com  We basically get a bunch of D3 and NAIA football teams together along with 500+ graduating Sr's with grades together to hold a FREE 1 day college event.

2  I highly recommend i9sports.com for youth league events.  Very well organized, low pressure, very few idiot parents.  I would buy a franchise if there was not one already in my area, so any of you looking for a post FIRE opp I highly recommend these.

3  There are more 2500+ student high schools these days then ever before.  It is insane on the #'s of kids that are in most high schools.  You have to live in very rural areas to have a 500 kid high school.  The days of kids going from football, to basketball, to baseball at a high school are long gone.  Now if you do not participate in a school programs offseason workout then you will not make the team let alone start.  Heaven forbid you want to sing in the choir also.  I suggest moving to a Rural setting and getting your culture fix thru websites.

4  Dad's get off of your keyboard and teach your kids how to throw a ball, throw a frisbee, grip a bat, throw a fishing line, and pitch a tent.

justajane

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2015, 11:29:01 AM »
I understand your frustrations. My kids are still young, but we made them choose one sport, in large part because of the time suck of having multiple kids in multiple sports. They chose soccer, which was fine by us. Thus far, our fees have only been about $80 per kid per year, but that's mostly because the coaches are parents. My husband has coached too years, but he has said that he doesn't feel comfortable coaching upper elementary kids, in large part because the skill sets they learn and the overall competitiveness of things is ratcheted up by then.

Just for fun - not necessarily to make our kid into the next Ronaldo - he is starting a more expensive, weekly soccer thing with a friend. I wasn't thrilled about it, but I lost that fight :).

We are in a small school district (ca. 110 students per year), and our school district made the somewhat controversial decision to drop their football program this year. Our humble district even made the NY Times for the decision. The reasons were:  #1 safety concerns on the part of the parents #2 cost.

Now we have a soccer team. Our homecoming game was a soccer game. It was somewhat strange, but the students are adjusting. I would love for my son to play soccer in high school, but like you say, even in a small district, this would require us to shell out a fair amount of money in the next 7 years for him to make the cut.  We may or may not do that.

And it's not just sports. My son joined the after school chess club, since he's been playing chess with his grandfather for a few years. Well, they have tournaments for kids starting in kindergarten. They are EIGHT HOURS LONG. Um, can my son just come on Saturday and play one game instead of five? Plus there's the correct board you have to buy, the membership to some chess federation, and the fee for each tournament. It's just too much for a kid that age. Hell, no, I don't want to spend 8 hours at a school on Saturday. He'll have to wait a year or two until we are ready to leave him unattended for that length of time.

Dee18

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2015, 01:12:32 PM »
One of the many benefits when I switched my daughter to private school in 8th grade was she was able to play team sports:  4'11" and still got to be a guard on the Jr High basketball team.  In high school she switched to tennis, where height didn't matter so much.  Before she went to private school, we did sports for fun that included:  bicycling, tennis, roller blading, and ice skating. She was also on a swim team and  a soccer team, both very low cost. At the public schools not only were the teams slots limited, the phys ed classes were a total joke with the teachers letting the students just hang out on the playgrounds.

rocketpj

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2015, 06:00:09 PM »
My 10 year old plays hockey.  Here in Canada that is as good as it gets, sportswise.

In our community, at his age there is one 'Rep' team (A) and 3 'House' teams (C).  Our boy is naturally talented and could easily play on the 'Rep' team, but they game and/or practice 6!! times/week, and travel to play a game EVERY weekend.  The Rep team also has some much larger travel expenses, including a big trip to Phoenix (!!), which is in another country.

All that said, the kid is keen and we told him that if he REALLY wants to try we will try to make it work.  He thought about it, and said 'nah, if I try out I might make it, and I enjoy all the other parts of my life too much'.  To which we breathed a huge sigh of relief.

One very major upside to our kid not playing in the 'A' league is that all the domineering, psychotic sports parents tend to get their kids onto that team (of course there are lots of great people too).  But it does mean that his current team is full of great, much more well-balanced kids who all have fun.  And in the stands we don't have as many people losing their cool over a 10 year old hockey game.

While I can understand wanting to help our kids do well, it drives me nuts when I see people spending >$20,000/year on their kid's hockey development.  I honestly think it will burn out the kids - a large percentage of them will get sick of the pressure and quit before they every reach the higher levels.  Hopefully my kid will just keep having fun.

shelivesthedream

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2015, 02:51:47 AM »
4  Dad's get off of your keyboard and teach your kids how to throw a ball, throw a frisbee, grip a bat, throw a fishing line, and pitch a tent.

And Mums. I'd bet a hundred pounds I can throw a ball better than my husband.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2015, 03:51:59 AM »
I played cricket, Australian Rules football and golf while growing up (and have signed up to start playing cricket again). I seem to recall that membership (at least junior membership) to the clubs wasn't that expensive.

It appears as though lots of the organised sports over in the US are school-based. Where do adults go if they want to play sports?

Pigeon

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2015, 06:34:42 AM »
How totally ridiculous to have to pay people for many hours of extra work. People being compensated for their time, yeah, that's what's ruining America.

What I found with my kids was that if your kid wasn't playing soccer by the time they were five, forget about doing it later.  It starts being competitive at a very early age.  I agree that fewer schools with larger enrollments makes for fewer teams, and more increased competition.  On the bright side, there are more opportunities for girls in my kids' school than there were when I went through the same district.

I think that more kids are doing more extra curricular activities in general.  When I was in high school, you really didn't need an extensive list of extra curriculars to get into a good college the way you do now.   

justajane

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2015, 06:40:47 AM »
Where do adults go if they want to play sports?

Usually there are leagues. Some of the non-school leagues for children also offer adult leagues that you pay for. Niche sports also sometimes manage to organize. I know someone who plays in a Gaelic football league. He pays a minimal fee, and the league is sponsored by local British pubs who advertise on the shirts.

There's also kickball, volleyball, softball, etc. cooperatives organized by communities. The YMCA and community centers that tend to offer low-key ways to play sports.

Leanthree

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2015, 10:18:43 AM »
There should be a wonderful and thriving youth sports scene encouraged in every town. It shouldn't just be organized sports, and especially only organized by the school. There needs to be disorganized sports and kind of sort of organize sports, and designated pick-up hours and whatever else.


nereo

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2015, 11:33:59 AM »
There should be a wonderful and thriving youth sports scene encouraged in every town. It shouldn't just be organized sports, and especially only organized by the school. There needs to be disorganized sports and kind of sort of organize sports, and designated pick-up hours and whatever else.

My 5 year old niece plays on a soccer team.  It's about as disorganized as humanly possible.  :-)

Gin1984

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2015, 11:42:28 AM »
I was heavily involved in school sports when I was a student and for the last decade I've been involved on the booster-board side.
I agree that it's all about the money, but more to the point it's about budget cuts, unions and parental involvement.


With some rare exceptions (e.g. football teams with a large community supporting it) high school sports cost the school a lot of money.  There's liability insurance, equipment costs, infrastructure costs (playing fields, lights, pool/rink/track time) and coaching costs.  When a school is hit with budget cuts one of the first things on the chopping block is sports teams.  It's a fairly obvious decision decision really - when faced with cutting academic courses or sports teams, which do you think an educator is going to favor?
Because varsity teams at least recoup some of their costs through ticket-sales, the JV/2nd-string/non-competitive teams get the ax first.  That means only the true athletes have a chance of making the teams.

Then there's the ongoing problem of finding coaches.  Along with liability insurance and venue rental, one of the biggest expenses is paying the coaches for ~10-20hrs/week.  On the booster-board we frequently encounter teacher's unions that won't allow their union members to work 'extra hours' without 'fair compensation'(read: overtime pay).  The results is that there's a constant lack of teacher-coaches.  Many programs either get cancelled or limp along because the school can't/won't pay even a minimum hourly wage, and there aren't enough qualified volunteers.

I agree that many school systems have abysmal sports programs.  IMO it all comes down to the $ though.
What is wrong with the idea that you work more and should get paid more?  And OT is a legal requirement.  Also I went to a private school and the teacher-coaches got paid more than the teachers alone.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 11:45:31 AM by Gin1984 »

Yankuba

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2015, 11:49:13 AM »
I always thought schools should eliminate gym and spend the savings elsewhere. Our class periods were 45 minutes long. We had 8 minutes to change into uniforms, 8 minutes to change out of uniforms and 8 minutes of taking attendance/stretching. That left 21 minutes of actual gym time. Sure, I liked 21 minutes of sports more than math, but it's an unnecessary luxury and it certainly isn't moving the needle on obesity.

I also always thought it was insane that "gym teacher" is an upper middle class career option. Our gym teachers would toss out some basketballs or footballs and we would entertain ourselves. The gym teachers were glorified babysitters yet they currently make six figures in fancy school districts. Boo on that.

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2015, 11:54:45 AM »
I was heavily involved in school sports when I was a student and for the last decade I've been involved on the booster-board side.
I agree that it's all about the money, but more to the point it's about budget cuts, unions and parental involvement.


With some rare exceptions (e.g. football teams with a large community supporting it) high school sports cost the school a lot of money.  There's liability insurance, equipment costs, infrastructure costs (playing fields, lights, pool/rink/track time) and coaching costs.  When a school is hit with budget cuts one of the first things on the chopping block is sports teams.  It's a fairly obvious decision decision really - when faced with cutting academic courses or sports teams, which do you think an educator is going to favor?
Because varsity teams at least recoup some of their costs through ticket-sales, the JV/2nd-string/non-competitive teams get the ax first.  That means only the true athletes have a chance of making the teams.

Then there's the ongoing problem of finding coaches.  Along with liability insurance and venue rental, one of the biggest expenses is paying the coaches for ~10-20hrs/week.  On the booster-board we frequently encounter teacher's unions that won't allow their union members to work 'extra hours' without 'fair compensation'(read: overtime pay).  The results is that there's a constant lack of teacher-coaches.  Many programs either get cancelled or limp along because the school can't/won't pay even a minimum hourly wage, and there aren't enough qualified volunteers.

I agree that many school systems have abysmal sports programs.  IMO it all comes down to the $ though.
What is wrong with the idea that you work more and should get paid more?  And OT is a legal requirement.  Also I went to a private school and the teacher-coaches got paid more than the teachers alone.
The problem is there in your response:  OT is a legal requirement, and unions are understandably very protective about it.  The problem though is with the budget; many schools can't afford to pay OT, especially for sports teams. Labor contracts prevent teachers from volunteering (working for no pay) even when they want to.  It's a vicious catch-22.

Gin1984

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2015, 11:59:35 AM »
I was heavily involved in school sports when I was a student and for the last decade I've been involved on the booster-board side.
I agree that it's all about the money, but more to the point it's about budget cuts, unions and parental involvement.


With some rare exceptions (e.g. football teams with a large community supporting it) high school sports cost the school a lot of money.  There's liability insurance, equipment costs, infrastructure costs (playing fields, lights, pool/rink/track time) and coaching costs.  When a school is hit with budget cuts one of the first things on the chopping block is sports teams.  It's a fairly obvious decision decision really - when faced with cutting academic courses or sports teams, which do you think an educator is going to favor?
Because varsity teams at least recoup some of their costs through ticket-sales, the JV/2nd-string/non-competitive teams get the ax first.  That means only the true athletes have a chance of making the teams.

Then there's the ongoing problem of finding coaches.  Along with liability insurance and venue rental, one of the biggest expenses is paying the coaches for ~10-20hrs/week.  On the booster-board we frequently encounter teacher's unions that won't allow their union members to work 'extra hours' without 'fair compensation'(read: overtime pay).  The results is that there's a constant lack of teacher-coaches.  Many programs either get cancelled or limp along because the school can't/won't pay even a minimum hourly wage, and there aren't enough qualified volunteers.

I agree that many school systems have abysmal sports programs.  IMO it all comes down to the $ though.
What is wrong with the idea that you work more and should get paid more?  And OT is a legal requirement.  Also I went to a private school and the teacher-coaches got paid more than the teachers alone.
The problem is there in your response:  OT is a legal requirement, and unions are understandably very protective about it.  The problem though is with the budget; many schools can't afford to pay OT, especially for sports teams. Labor contracts prevent teachers from volunteering (working for no pay) even when they want to.  It's a vicious catch-22.
Actually that is illegal in multiple states (and depending on how it is done illegal federally), and should be because then an employee can be forced into "volunteering."

Jack

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2015, 12:06:47 PM »
The problem is there in your response:  OT is a legal requirement, and unions are understandably very protective about it.  The problem though is with the budget; many schools can't afford to pay OT, especially for sports teams. Labor contracts prevent teachers from volunteering (working for no pay) even when they want to.  It's a vicious catch-22.

That is not even slightly a catch-22. It has a clear and simple solution: fix the budget!

If you can't increase the budget enough to pay for it, then the real issue is that the taxpayers have decided that sports aren't worth having.

ImCheap

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2015, 12:10:56 PM »
On my lord I'm not sure where to start, I'm so glad I'm just about at the end of this with my kids.

I been through it all, from being on the Booster Boards, etc.

There is a big ass glaring gap, after about age 10-11 the opportunities for anything reasonable takes a back seat, about the only choice you have is to play club ball, traveling this, traveling that. The parents are completely nuts, I can't put my finger on it, are they living thru their kids, trying to go back in time, maybe they are loosing their minds and the memories are fuzzy. I suppose my memory maybe fuzzy but I don't recall yesteryear like this.

One of the worst things to happen is they have turned all these sports into a year around commitment. If you did not play all year before the high school years you were basically not wanted at the high school level, I felt for those kids who could not play. The high school coaches would "talk" with the summer coaches (they are not suppose to but do) and if you did not have the right last name forget it. 

Crap we were playing soccer 11months of the year, and I'm in the Midwest where it snows! You got dome's, converted warehouses with fields in them, camps, etc.

Can we apply gymnastics and or dance as a sport? We went thru this as well, talk about a goat show. All parents think their kid is going to make the Olympics, while that's a fine goal its not in the cards for many. I watch so many of these young girls get pushed and pushed to the tune of about 20+ hours in the gym/week. By the time they get to high school they are so burned out they hung it up if they even make it that long. Now what does the kid do, this all they know.

I see its getting so bad it made the news around here.
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/11/16/as-competition-rises-team-sports-decline-but-traveling-teams-soar/

Its no wonder we have an obesity problem, if you are not in perfect fit condition by the time you get the high school you are not going to make the walking club.

The more I type the more my blood pressure rises, its a truly disgusting system. I put this solely on the parents shoulders for this creation.

nereo

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2015, 12:18:18 PM »

What is wrong with the idea that you work more and should get paid more?  And OT is a legal requirement.  Also I went to a private school and the teacher-coaches got paid more than the teachers alone.
The problem is there in your response:  OT is a legal requirement, and unions are understandably very protective about it.  The problem though is with the budget; many schools can't afford to pay OT, especially for sports teams. Labor contracts prevent teachers from volunteering (working for no pay) even when they want to.  It's a vicious catch-22.
Actually that is illegal in multiple states (and depending on how it is done illegal federally), and should be because then an employee can be forced into "volunteering."
either you have a strange way of agreeing with what I'm saying or we aren't understanding one another.  Schools often can't pay teachers to work overtime.  Teachers aren't permitted to work without pay (which, for the record, I completely agree with).  The end result is that potential sports teams are often without a coach.
One thing I didn't mention is that in our particular situation even non-school employees couldn't volunteer to coach due to union contracts.  Basically, volunteers can't take the place of paid employees.  It's similar to the point you made about being 'forced' into volunteering (which I also agree with). 
I never intended to imply that teachers shouldn't be paid for working more hours. 
The ones that really suffer are the kids.

Quote
It has a clear and simple solution: fix the budget!

If you can't increase the budget enough to pay for it, then the real issue is that the taxpayers have decided that sports aren't worth having.
I wholehearted agree with you Jack.

(edited for clarity, punctuation)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 12:29:05 PM by nereo »

asauer

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2015, 12:23:48 PM »
I know some of this has to do with underfunding schools.  For the schools in our areas they get a surprising chunk of their budget from sports (middle and high schools).  They make a little $ on uniforms/ equipment, a lot on booster activities which means the "better" the team is, the more people come and the more $ comes in.  Finally, they make $ from competitions- e.g. cheer competitions give financial prizes to the winning school.  Our schools use this money for crap that they should already have like up-to-date textbooks, media subscriptions and classroom projects. 

It really sucks that they're caught in this cycle.

bogart

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Re: What have youth sports become?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2015, 02:47:52 PM »
I can't speak to the schools "when I was a kid" versus today, the only thing I know for sure about my childhood was that I wanted to play as few (team) sports as possible, regardless. 

But where I live, I'd say overall things are much better than they used to be.  Yes, there are crazy (and crazy expensive) sports opportunities for tweens and especially teens.  But there are also wildly affordable local soccer leagues (rec) and others (other sports) that take anyone and serve huge age spans (basically 4 to forever, for the soccer).  Our town has invested heavily in gyms, parks, and pools  -- I remember there being precisely one park here when I was growing up, and yes, I'm still in the same town where I grew up (As I grew up in the 1970s in the US South I suspect that in part, the town may have been reluctant to spend money on facilities where (gasp!) blacks and whites might have co-mingled).  It's also invested heavily in programming using those and other local facilities (e.g. my son is now enrolled in a town bball program that uses the school facilities, "off hours" -- nights & weekends). 

So -- I don't doubt that this is a real problem nor that it's a widespread problem.  But it's not happening everywhere (I do live somewhere that believes in taxing-and-spending, and happily so.  That may be a factor).   

 

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