Author Topic: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?  (Read 27793 times)

mousebandit

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #100 on: June 23, 2016, 02:52:58 PM »
Thanks guys!  I most understood what Beltim was saying.  So, from a financial perspective, are we then saying that it's responsible economics (or maybe that's a misapplication of the term, maybe I mean fiscally responsible) to have significant debt, 5x the annual income levels, that we have no plan to repay?  Or maybe USG does have a plan to repay it? 

Politically, does our government say that they intend to at least return to a balanced budget at any point in the future, or has hope for that come and gone?  In other words, have we as a nation resigned ourselves to continue adding to this debt level every year forevermore? 

I realize that there is a LOT to understand about economics, and I have zero education or experience on this.  From a housewife's perspective though, this is a lot to fathom, LOL!  If we reduced these numbers to millions and hundred-thousands, and gave me this scenario for a business, I would be aghast, LOL! 

MouseBandit

beltim

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #101 on: June 23, 2016, 03:16:55 PM »
Thanks guys!  I most understood what Beltim was saying.  So, from a financial perspective, are we then saying that it's responsible economics (or maybe that's a misapplication of the term, maybe I mean fiscally responsible) to have significant debt, 5x the annual income levels, that we have no plan to repay?  Or maybe USG does have a plan to repay it? 

For a variety of reasons having to do with the stability of US government debt and currency, completely eliminating government debt would likely be a disaster.  On the other hand, if the interest cost of the debt goes up such that it becomes difficult to pay, that would also be a disaster.  At current levels, we spend about 6% of the federal budget on interest, which historically is pretty low, because current interest rates are low.

Adding $500 billion to the debt in a year isn't necessarily fiscally responsible, but the idea between comparing the debt to GDP, or debt to revenue, is that there is a level of adding debt every year that you never actually change that ratio.  If the deficit to GDP ratio is below the growth in GDP, then the debt to revenue ratio should not increase (this is an approximation because the net debt to GDP ratio is about 1, and assumes no large changes in taxes as a percentage of GDP).  So there is a "sustainable" deficit that the government could have every year and never affect these ratios.  I haven't run the numbers recently, but I think it's in the neighborhood of $400 billion a year.

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Politically, does our government say that they intend to at least return to a balanced budget at any point in the future, or has hope for that come and gone?  In other words, have we as a nation resigned ourselves to continue adding to this debt level every year forevermore? 

Different people in politics say different things.  Everyone likes the idea of a roughly balanced budget, but that comes up against priorities on taxing and spending.

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I realize that there is a LOT to understand about economics, and I have zero education or experience on this.  From a housewife's perspective though, this is a lot to fathom, LOL!  If we reduced these numbers to millions and hundred-thousands, and gave me this scenario for a business, I would be aghast, LOL! 

MouseBandit

Be careful about comparing this to a business.  There are plenty of businesses – or households – that have much higher interest burdens than governments do.  Consider a household that buys a house worth 3.3 times the household income (this is the US median).  Assuming they take a mortgage for 80% of the home value and pay 4% interest, then they're paying about 10% of their family income in interest costs (for at least the first 5 years or so).

Yaeger

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2016, 04:12:57 PM »
Thanks guys!  I most understood what Beltim was saying.  So, from a financial perspective, are we then saying that it's responsible economics (or maybe that's a misapplication of the term, maybe I mean fiscally responsible) to have significant debt, 5x the annual income levels, that we have no plan to repay?  Or maybe USG does have a plan to repay it? 

For a variety of reasons having to do with the stability of US government debt and currency, completely eliminating government debt would likely be a disaster.  On the other hand, if the interest cost of the debt goes up such that it becomes difficult to pay, that would also be a disaster.  At current levels, we spend about 6% of the federal budget on interest, which historically is pretty low, because current interest rates are low.

Adding $500 billion to the debt in a year isn't necessarily fiscally responsible, but the idea between comparing the debt to GDP, or debt to revenue, is that there is a level of adding debt every year that you never actually change that ratio.  If the deficit to GDP ratio is below the growth in GDP, then the debt to revenue ratio should not increase (this is an approximation because the net debt to GDP ratio is about 1, and assumes no large changes in taxes as a percentage of GDP).  So there is a "sustainable" deficit that the government could have every year and never affect these ratios.  I haven't run the numbers recently, but I think it's in the neighborhood of $400 billion a year.

Be careful about comparing this to a business.  There are plenty of businesses – or households – that have much higher interest burdens than governments do.  Consider a household that buys a house worth 3.3 times the household income (this is the US median).  Assuming they take a mortgage for 80% of the home value and pay 4% interest, then they're paying about 10% of their family income in interest costs (for at least the first 5 years or so).

He's right, but I'd say that several key points may, or will eventually, prove him to be wrong.

A lot of these assumptions based on sustainable debt levels assume future GDP growth to be within a certain threshold. If the GDP growth misses the mark and is less than expected (hint: we haven't hit a target of 3% growth since Bush, our economy is noticeably slowing) it'll place additional risk on our ability to pay off the obligations that we're incurring today.

Secondly, while our markets may be sound today, a higher debt burden and already-low interest rates from emergency actions taken during the 2008 crisis limit the ability of the government to combat the next crisis, whether it be financial, humanitarian, or military. Business cycles tend to occur like clockwork, so plan for a recession probably within 3 years. I don't think we'll see too much Keynesian easing, as we still haven't normalized from the last crisis. The entire fiscal strategy of our country relies upon paying off some of the stimulus debt as the economy improves following a recession, you slowly ramp up the interest rates as your debt drops. Think of it as 'reloading your recession-killing gun".

In addition to the 2nd, high levels of debt make buying our securities in troubled times even more risky. We can't raise the interest rates to make them more appealing, so we just have to hope that the U.S. stays internationally appealing to investors. This tends to make us spend more to achieve this facade of financial security, which builds more debt, and hope that Baby Huey doesn't come running along and topple the whole house of cards. If that happens, the irony is that the savers (us) will be the ones punished for actions they railed against if the government has to print to pay its bills.

beltim

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2016, 04:30:09 PM »
Thanks guys!  I most understood what Beltim was saying.  So, from a financial perspective, are we then saying that it's responsible economics (or maybe that's a misapplication of the term, maybe I mean fiscally responsible) to have significant debt, 5x the annual income levels, that we have no plan to repay?  Or maybe USG does have a plan to repay it? 

For a variety of reasons having to do with the stability of US government debt and currency, completely eliminating government debt would likely be a disaster.  On the other hand, if the interest cost of the debt goes up such that it becomes difficult to pay, that would also be a disaster.  At current levels, we spend about 6% of the federal budget on interest, which historically is pretty low, because current interest rates are low.

Adding $500 billion to the debt in a year isn't necessarily fiscally responsible, but the idea between comparing the debt to GDP, or debt to revenue, is that there is a level of adding debt every year that you never actually change that ratio.  If the deficit to GDP ratio is below the growth in GDP, then the debt to revenue ratio should not increase (this is an approximation because the net debt to GDP ratio is about 1, and assumes no large changes in taxes as a percentage of GDP).  So there is a "sustainable" deficit that the government could have every year and never affect these ratios.  I haven't run the numbers recently, but I think it's in the neighborhood of $400 billion a year.

Be careful about comparing this to a business.  There are plenty of businesses – or households – that have much higher interest burdens than governments do.  Consider a household that buys a house worth 3.3 times the household income (this is the US median).  Assuming they take a mortgage for 80% of the home value and pay 4% interest, then they're paying about 10% of their family income in interest costs (for at least the first 5 years or so).

He's right, but I'd say that several key points may, or will eventually, prove him to be wrong.

A lot of these assumptions based on sustainable debt levels assume future GDP growth to be within a certain threshold. If the GDP growth misses the mark and is less than expected (hint: we haven't hit a target of 3% growth since Bush, our economy is noticeably slowing) it'll place additional risk on our ability to pay off the obligations that we're incurring today.

It's really easy to figure out what a new sustainable debt amount is, though.  If future long term GDP growth is 2%, then the sustainable deficit is 2/3 of what it would be at GDP growth of 3%.  Nothing here is fixed in stone.

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Secondly, while our markets may be sound today, a higher debt burden and already-low interest rates from emergency actions taken during the 2008 crisis limit the ability of the government to combat the next crisis, whether it be financial, humanitarian, or military. Business cycles tend to occur like clockwork, so plan for a recession probably within 3 years. I don't think we'll see too much Keynesian easing, as we still haven't normalized from the last crisis. The entire fiscal strategy of our country relies upon paying off some of the stimulus debt as the economy improves following a recession, you slowly ramp up the interest rates as your debt drops. Think of it as 'reloading your recession-killing gun".

I agree that we should have done more to prevent additional borrowing after the 2009 stimulus.  I think a large amount of the additional borrowing was due to the Bush tax cuts (most of which were continued under Obama), without a corresponding amount of cuts in spending.  I wish any of the major politicians actually pushed an economic policy that included deficit spending when appropriate (like 2009) and budget surpluses when appropriate.

projekt

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2016, 05:12:18 AM »
I think reducing spending has been pretty disastrous since the Great Recession everywhere its been tried, so the only other option has been increasing taxes. It wouldn't make much sense to increase them on those who can't afford it, so you need to increase them on the wealthier people, who seem to have been pretty good at making that impossible through control of both houses of congress. So we are at an impasse and fiscal policy is basically on automatic and difficult to change. I agree that it would be nice for political candidates to be able to articulate a position that has more than 5 words.

Telecaster

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2016, 08:43:14 AM »

In addition to the 2nd, high levels of debt make buying our securities in troubled times even more risky. We can't raise the interest rates to make them more appealing, so we just have to hope that the U.S. stays internationally appealing to investors. This tends to make us spend more to achieve this facade of financial security, which builds more debt, and hope that Baby Huey doesn't come running along and topple the whole house of cards. If that happens, the irony is that the savers (us) will be the ones punished for actions they railed against if the government has to print to pay its bills.

The thing that makes US bills and bonds appealing is that the US government has always paid its bills, not to mention the USD is the world's default currency.  We're seeing that today with the Brexit.  In times of uncertainty money flows to the US.   As mentioned above, interest on the debt is not particularly large in comparison to GDP, and is pretty typical with the post-war average.  It has been much, much higher in the past.  In short, we can easily pay our bond obligations, even if interest rates rise a lot.   The only risk is if Congress simply decides not to pay.  There is literally zero risk that there will be inability to pay (for a number of reasons).   

One thing that has to be emphasized:  US bills and bonds are tradable financial instruments.  The interest rate is set on the open market.   The Fed can set short term interest rate targets, but the markets ultimately determine interest rates.  What do the bond markets think right now?  They think US debt is awesome and they are willing to pay amazing prices for it. 


 


beltim

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2016, 08:53:07 AM »
It wouldn't make much sense to increase them on those who can't afford it, so you need to increase them on the wealthier people, who seem to have been pretty good at making that impossible through control of both houses of congress.

Interestingly, current federal taxes on the median household are near the lowest they've ever been.  http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-income-taxes-on-middle-income-families-remain-near-historic-lows

samustache

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2016, 11:30:17 AM »
It should be significant to you that the dire predictions of hyperinflation keep being wrong. The narrative sounded plausible to me at first, but now I've dismissed it once it didn't happen and the predictors continued to change the narrative to fit their predicted outcome.

Also don't be tempted to compare a country with a household / business unless you rethink what the income and assets are.

And dismiss anyone claims that the Fed is printing money, they are not. The money entered the system the day the debt entered the system - when the Fed swaps bank reserves for US government debt the outstanding money in the system is exactly the same.

projekt

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #108 on: June 25, 2016, 01:17:34 PM »
It wouldn't make much sense to increase them on those who can't afford it, so you need to increase them on the wealthier people, who seem to have been pretty good at making that impossible through control of both houses of congress.

Interestingly, current federal taxes on the median household are near the lowest they've ever been.  http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-income-taxes-on-middle-income-families-remain-near-historic-lows

Yep, median household income has stagnated while tax brackets are indexed to inflation, in addition to the provision of generous child tax credits and other tax expenditures. But in any event, it's hard to justify reducing the amount people have to spend during a time of stagnant growth.

Telecaster

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2016, 02:54:06 AM »
It should be significant to you that the dire predictions of hyperinflation keep being wrong. The narrative sounded plausible to me at first, but now I've dismissed it once it didn't happen and the predictors continued to change the narrative to fit their predicted outcome.

Also don't be tempted to compare a country with a household / business unless you rethink what the income and assets are.

And dismiss anyone claims that the Fed is printing money, they are not. The money entered the system the day the debt entered the system - when the Fed swaps bank reserves for US government debt the outstanding money in the system is exactly the same.

Which brings up another uncomfortable point.  The amount of money in the economy is something that is measureable.  Or at least estimable.    So, if the Fed is printing money like mad, as the inflationistas claim, then the amount of money should be increasing like mad too.

But is isn't:






Yaeger

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #110 on: June 27, 2016, 03:29:22 AM »
I disagree. Theoretically:

1) In normal economic circumstances, if the money supply grows faster than real output it will cause inflation.
2) In a depressed economy (liquidity trap) this correlation breaks down because of a fall in the velocity of circulation. This is why in a depressed economy Central Banks can increase the money supply without causing inflation. This occurred in US between 2008-11. Large increase in money supply no inflation.
3) However, when the economy recovers and velocity of circulation rises, increased money supply is likely to cause inflation.

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/111/inflation/money-supply-inflation/

Total monetary base increased to buy bonds from banks with quantitative easing:


However, money in circulation was relatively unchanged since the banks didn't loan this money out:


This is explained by commercial banks holding much more in reserve instead of lending it out. If they did.. then maybe we'd experience heavy inflation:

Telecaster

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #111 on: June 27, 2016, 06:54:32 AM »
I disagree. Theoretically:


This is explained by commercial banks holding much more in reserve instead of lending it out. If they did.. then maybe we'd experience heavy inflation:

I didn't see much that disagreed with what I said.   The vast, and I mean the vast, majority of money is created by the private banking system, which I believe is the purpose of your last graph.    But let's say the velocity of money increases and all that, leading to the prospect of inflation.  Well, there's an easy cure for that.  Raise interest rates.   Borrowing becomes more expensive and so people do less of it.   Less borrowing = less money creation = less inflation.  Interest rates are very low right now, so there is plenty of headroom to get out in front of inflation if it happens. 

And that's also reason I used the Divisia M4 instead of M2.  M2 is basically liquid, everyday money, if you will.   Divisia M4 includes M2 as well as CDs, T-bills, etc.  which is a broader definition of "money."   And T-bills etc. are where the banks are parking their money.  The M2 is important, but as your last graph shows, we also need to take into account the money is parked on the sidelines.  If we look at the broader supply, we don't see a lot of growth in the broad money supply (again private banks more responsible for money creation than central banks).   Without a lot of growth, we won't see a lot of inflation. 




samustache

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #112 on: June 27, 2016, 11:29:28 AM »
I disagree. Theoretically:

1) In normal economic circumstances, if the money supply grows faster than real output it will cause inflation.
2) In a depressed economy (liquidity trap) this correlation breaks down because of a fall in the velocity of circulation. This is why in a depressed economy Central Banks can increase the money supply without causing inflation. This occurred in US between 2008-11. Large increase in money supply no inflation.
3) However, when the economy recovers and velocity of circulation rises, increased money supply is likely to cause inflation.

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/111/inflation/money-supply-inflation/

Total monetary base increased to buy bonds from banks with quantitative easing:


However, money in circulation was relatively unchanged since the banks didn't loan this money out:


This is explained by commercial banks holding much more in reserve instead of lending it out. If they did.. then maybe we'd experience heavy inflation:



banks don't lend out reserves. The reserves are indicative of no demand for loans.

The fed is BEGGING for inflation, they have the tools and know-how to fight that far more than what we're experiencing now.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/21/banks-dont-lend-out-reserves/#7ff3db8f3594

If that doesn't work for google search "banks don't lend out reserves".

Yaeger

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #113 on: June 27, 2016, 02:35:58 PM »
banks don't lend out reserves. The reserves are indicative of no demand for loans.

The fed is BEGGING for inflation, they have the tools and know-how to fight that far more than what we're experiencing now.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/21/banks-dont-lend-out-reserves/#7ff3db8f3594

If that doesn't work for google search "banks don't lend out reserves".

The more I read into this the more confused I become. Mostly because I don't understand how this is supposed to have combated the economic downturn and what the point of excess reserves are. How does this stimulate economic activity?

samustache

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #114 on: June 28, 2016, 11:46:07 AM »
The more I read into this the more confused I become. Mostly because I don't understand how this is supposed to have combated the economic downturn and what the point of excess reserves are. How does this stimulate economic activity?

I think the problem is there is a lot of disagreement among economists on the efficacy. A pure accounting model says it shouldn't really do anything, which is the basis of Krugman et al saying you need more debt in concert with looser policy.

But there certainly seems to be an asset correlation with QE, i.e. simply removing safe long bonds from the system forces the market to invest more outside of them, which raises asset prices, making people feeling richer. The "wealth effect" means people feel better about spending more. But here the counter argument is that the Fed doesn't have control over real interest rates, just nominal ones and asset prices will correlate inversely to current real rates anyway.

Others suggest it's purely signaling - the market worries about premature tightening and QE just signals that they won't. This is the one I buy the most. I think, and the market seems to believe, that the Fed has all the power in the world to stem inflation, and they have to signal that they won't prematurely remove accommodation.


Telecaster

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #115 on: June 28, 2016, 02:34:25 PM »
Buying bonds drives up the price--that is, drives down interest rates.  Basically, it is a way to drive down interest rates and recapitalize banks, which in theory encourages them to lend money.

Most economists agree it is a weak form of stimulus but if interest rates are at zero there aren't many other options for central banks. 


elysianfields

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #116 on: June 29, 2016, 10:07:31 AM »
banks don't lend out reserves. The reserves are indicative of no demand for loans.

The fed is BEGGING for inflation, they have the tools and know-how to fight that far more than what we're experiencing now.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/21/banks-dont-lend-out-reserves/#7ff3db8f3594

If that doesn't work for google search "banks don't lend out reserves".

The more I read into this the more confused I become. Mostly because I don't understand how this is supposed to have combated the economic downturn and what the point of excess reserves are. How does this stimulate economic activity?

The Fed is doing everything it can to stimulate the economy.  The problem is one of a lack of aggregate demand, which federal, state, and local governments reinforced through austerity policies.

Low demand -> companies don't build factories or open new offices -> no new jobs -> low demand.

If we can start getting aggregate demand sparked through fiscal policy, e.g., via a multi-year commitment to invest in infrastructure (smart grids, airports, bridges, public transit, solar roadways...), that will increase jobs -> increased demand -> increased investment (to make use of all the great infrastructure we just build to produce goods & services and get them to market) -> more new jobs.  That combined with too few workers to fill those new jobs would start inching up inflation toward the Fed's stated goal of 2%.

The banks aren't lending money to companies because the companies don't see sufficient demand for their goods or services to build new factories or open new offices.

As a result, the risk of hyperinflation is particularly low right now.  The 10-year T-bill sits at 1.4613% as I type this.

Furthermore, the uncertainties resulting from the Brexit vote are dampening UK aggregate demand, and that of its trading partners.

Yaeger

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #117 on: June 29, 2016, 01:22:10 PM »
banks don't lend out reserves. The reserves are indicative of no demand for loans.

The fed is BEGGING for inflation, they have the tools and know-how to fight that far more than what we're experiencing now.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/21/banks-dont-lend-out-reserves/#7ff3db8f3594

If that doesn't work for google search "banks don't lend out reserves".

The more I read into this the more confused I become. Mostly because I don't understand how this is supposed to have combated the economic downturn and what the point of excess reserves are. How does this stimulate economic activity?

The Fed is doing everything it can to stimulate the economy.  The problem is one of a lack of aggregate demand, which federal, state, and local governments reinforced through austerity policies.

Low demand -> companies don't build factories or open new offices -> no new jobs -> low demand.

If we can start getting aggregate demand sparked through fiscal policy, e.g., via a multi-year commitment to invest in infrastructure (smart grids, airports, bridges, public transit, solar roadways...), that will increase jobs -> increased demand -> increased investment (to make use of all the great infrastructure we just build to produce goods & services and get them to market) -> more new jobs.  That combined with too few workers to fill those new jobs would start inching up inflation toward the Fed's stated goal of 2%.

The banks aren't lending money to companies because the companies don't see sufficient demand for their goods or services to build new factories or open new offices.

As a result, the risk of hyperinflation is particularly low right now.  The 10-year T-bill sits at 1.4613% as I type this.

Furthermore, the uncertainties resulting from the Brexit vote are dampening UK aggregate demand, and that of its trading partners.

I think this is pointing to how our foray into Keynesian economic theories has become a dismal failure. All we got was debt and no growth and it's pretty much the same for Europe and Japan.

elysianfields

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2016, 04:35:09 AM »
banks don't lend out reserves. The reserves are indicative of no demand for loans.

The fed is BEGGING for inflation, they have the tools and know-how to fight that far more than what we're experiencing now.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/21/banks-dont-lend-out-reserves/#7ff3db8f3594

If that doesn't work for google search "banks don't lend out reserves".

The more I read into this the more confused I become. Mostly because I don't understand how this is supposed to have combated the economic downturn and what the point of excess reserves are. How does this stimulate economic activity?

The Fed is doing everything it can to stimulate the economy.  The problem is one of a lack of aggregate demand, which federal, state, and local governments reinforced through austerity policies.

Low demand -> companies don't build factories or open new offices -> no new jobs -> low demand.

If we can start getting aggregate demand sparked through fiscal policy, e.g., via a multi-year commitment to invest in infrastructure (smart grids, airports, bridges, public transit, solar roadways...), that will increase jobs -> increased demand -> increased investment (to make use of all the great infrastructure we just build to produce goods & services and get them to market) -> more new jobs.  That combined with too few workers to fill those new jobs would start inching up inflation toward the Fed's stated goal of 2%.

The banks aren't lending money to companies because the companies don't see sufficient demand for their goods or services to build new factories or open new offices.

As a result, the risk of hyperinflation is particularly low right now.  The 10-year T-bill sits at 1.4613% as I type this.

Furthermore, the uncertainties resulting from the Brexit vote are dampening UK aggregate demand, and that of its trading partners.

I think this is pointing to how our foray into Keynesian economic theories has become a dismal failure. All we got was debt and no growth and it's pretty much the same for Europe and Japan.

That's a bullshit assessment, as Keynes discusses the liquidity trap rather extensively.  Under normal circumstances, lower interest rates should increase the demand for money and help restart the investment cycle.  However, given the low level of aggregate demand, the equilibrium interest rate lies below 0% - which explains why we're seeing negative interest rates in Germany, Austria, Denmark, Switzerland, and elsewhere - but most investors are not willing to lend their cash for securities at a negative interest rate.  Thus, we're observing not the failure of Keynesian economic theory, but rather the limits of monetary policy in a liquidity trap.

If the industrialized world's governments would start priming the pump through deficit spending (e.g, an aggressive infrastructure program), we'd see some demand and inflation, and central banks would get their mojo back.  But there's all this moralistic hand-wringing from Berlin to London to Washington about how evil deficit spending is.  Result:  it has taken years, and (especially in the face of Brexit) will take several more years to get the economy moving again.

Other examples: examine how massive deficit spending in the U. S. in the period after 1939 helped us exit the Great Depression, or how aggressive investment in the Interstate Highway System in the 1950s spurred more growth.

Bucksandreds

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2016, 05:13:51 AM »
banks don't lend out reserves. The reserves are indicative of no demand for loans.

The fed is BEGGING for inflation, they have the tools and know-how to fight that far more than what we're experiencing now.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/21/banks-dont-lend-out-reserves/#7ff3db8f3594

If that doesn't work for google search "banks don't lend out reserves".

The more I read into this the more confused I become. Mostly because I don't understand how this is supposed to have combated the economic downturn and what the point of excess reserves are. How does this stimulate economic activity?

The Fed is doing everything it can to stimulate the economy.  The problem is one of a lack of aggregate demand, which federal, state, and local governments reinforced through austerity policies.

Low demand -> companies don't build factories or open new offices -> no new jobs -> low demand.

If we can start getting aggregate demand sparked through fiscal policy, e.g., via a multi-year commitment to invest in infrastructure (smart grids, airports, bridges, public transit, solar roadways...), that will increase jobs -> increased demand -> increased investment (to make use of all the great infrastructure we just build to produce goods & services and get them to market) -> more new jobs.  That combined with too few workers to fill those new jobs would start inching up inflation toward the Fed's stated goal of 2%.

The banks aren't lending money to companies because the companies don't see sufficient demand for their goods or services to build new factories or open new offices.

As a result, the risk of hyperinflation is particularly low right now.  The 10-year T-bill sits at 1.4613% as I type this.

Furthermore, the uncertainties resulting from the Brexit vote are dampening UK aggregate demand, and that of its trading partners.

I think this is pointing to how our foray into Keynesian economic theories has become a dismal failure. All we got was debt and no growth and it's pretty much the same for Europe and Japan.

That's a bullshit assessment, as Keynes discusses the liquidity trap rather extensively.  Under normal circumstances, lower interest rates should increase the demand for money and help restart the investment cycle.  However, given the low level of aggregate demand, the equilibrium interest rate lies below 0% - which explains why we're seeing negative interest rates in Germany, Austria, Denmark, Switzerland, and elsewhere - but most investors are not willing to lend their cash for securities at a negative interest rate.  Thus, we're observing not the failure of Keynesian economic theory, but rather the limits of monetary policy in a liquidity trap.

If the industrialized world's governments would start priming the pump through deficit spending (e.g, an aggressive infrastructure program), we'd see some demand and inflation, and central banks would get their mojo back.  But there's all this moralistic hand-wringing from Berlin to London to Washington about how evil deficit spending is.  Result:  it has taken years, and (especially in the face of Brexit) will take several more years to get the economy moving again.

Other examples: examine how massive deficit spending in the U. S. in the period after 1939 helped us exit the Great Depression, or how aggressive investment in the Interstate Highway System in the 1950s spurred more growth.

This is one of the rare times where I think Yaeger is more spot on.  Deficit spending has limits to effectiveness.  A World War is a completely different beast than infrastructure improvements and I've yet to read an essay on the link between highway building and U.S. economic growth.  If you want to see the limits of deficit spending see Japan.  No amount of government 'monetary easing' has turned around their deflationary stagnation.  Part of me wonders if constant growth above levels in line with population growth is a 19th and 20th century aberration?

projekt

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2016, 04:42:18 PM »
This is one of the rare times where I think Yaeger is more spot on.  Deficit spending has limits to effectiveness.  A World War is a completely different beast than infrastructure improvements and I've yet to read an essay on the link between highway building and U.S. economic growth.  If you want to see the limits of deficit spending see Japan.  No amount of government 'monetary easing' has turned around their deflationary stagnation.  Part of me wonders if constant growth above levels in line with population growth is a 19th and 20th century aberration?

Quantitative/monetary easing (monetary policy) and deficit spending (fiscal policy) are two different animals. It doesn't make sense to say, "well, we bought a lot of bonds and so obviously fiscal policy is useless!" Japan's structural deficit and huge debt doesn't exist because they spent wildly trying to jump-start their economy. It happened because the GDP kept dropping, and Japan is now significantly poorer than it was in 1997. They didn't pursue loose monetary policy during most of this time, and they often increased taxes to attempt to fix the deficit. Hopefully we can learn something from their failures instead of repeating them.

Bucksandreds

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2016, 05:27:24 PM »
This is one of the rare times where I think Yaeger is more spot on.  Deficit spending has limits to effectiveness.  A World War is a completely different beast than infrastructure improvements and I've yet to read an essay on the link between highway building and U.S. economic growth.  If you want to see the limits of deficit spending see Japan.  No amount of government 'monetary easing' has turned around their deflationary stagnation.  Part of me wonders if constant growth above levels in line with population growth is a 19th and 20th century aberration?

Quantitative/monetary easing (monetary policy) and deficit spending (fiscal policy) are two different animals. It doesn't make sense to say, "well, we bought a lot of bonds and so obviously fiscal policy is useless!" Japan's structural deficit and huge debt doesn't exist because they spent wildly trying to jump-start their economy. It happened because the GDP kept dropping, and Japan is now significantly poorer than it was in 1997. They didn't pursue loose monetary policy during most of this time, and they often increased taxes to attempt to fix the deficit. Hopefully we can learn something from their failures instead of repeating them.

Uh, no. Japan's GDP is $300 billion higher now than in 1997 and was a $1 trillion higher a decade after 1997 prior to the Great Recession.

Japan has raised the Vat while continuing to operate with Deficit spending year after year above 5% of GDP. Neither of those 2 things has anything to do with easing of monetary policy which they have also done. Japan has consistently spent billions of dollars more annually than it has brought in. They also have negative interest rates which is as loose a monetary policy as you can have.  Neither deficit spending nor extremely loose monetary policy has fixed their ills.  The deficit spending of World War 2 was an organic change.  Japan's forced economic expansion has demonstrated that you can't just engineer your way to a healthy economy.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/government-budget

http://www.kushnirs.org/macroeconomics_/en/japan__gdp.html
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 05:40:17 PM by Bucksandreds »

elysianfields

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #122 on: July 01, 2016, 09:09:42 AM »
I think this is pointing to how our foray into Keynesian economic theories has become a dismal failure. All we got was debt and no growth and it's pretty much the same for Europe and Japan.

That's a bullshit assessment, as Keynes discusses the liquidity trap rather extensively.  Under normal circumstances, lower interest rates should increase the demand for money and help restart the investment cycle.  However, given the low level of aggregate demand, the equilibrium interest rate lies below 0% - which explains why we're seeing negative interest rates in Germany, Austria, Denmark, Switzerland, and elsewhere - but most investors are not willing to lend their cash for securities at a negative interest rate.  Thus, we're observing not the failure of Keynesian economic theory, but rather the limits of monetary policy in a liquidity trap.

If the industrialized world's governments would start priming the pump through deficit spending (e.g, an aggressive infrastructure program), we'd see some demand and inflation, and central banks would get their mojo back.  But there's all this moralistic hand-wringing from Berlin to London to Washington about how evil deficit spending is.  Result:  it has taken years, and (especially in the face of Brexit) will take several more years to get the economy moving again.

Other examples: examine how massive deficit spending in the U. S. in the period after 1939 helped us exit the Great Depression, or how aggressive investment in the Interstate Highway System in the 1950s spurred more growth.

This is one of the rare times where I think Yaeger is more spot on.  Deficit spending has limits to effectiveness.  A World War is a completely different beast than infrastructure improvements and I've yet to read an essay on the link between highway building and U.S. economic growth.  If you want to see the limits of deficit spending see Japan.  No amount of government 'monetary easing' has turned around their deflationary stagnation.  Part of me wonders if constant growth above levels in line with population growth is a 19th and 20th century aberration?

Yaeger indicted "Keynesian economic theories".

I restated Keynesian economic theories, which cover both monetary and fiscal policy.

You confounded monetary and fiscal policy.


Quantitative/monetary easing (monetary policy) and deficit spending (fiscal policy) are two different animals. It doesn't make sense to say, "well, we bought a lot of bonds and so obviously fiscal policy is useless!" Japan's structural deficit and huge debt doesn't exist because they spent wildly trying to jump-start their economy. It happened because the GDP kept dropping, and Japan is now significantly poorer than it was in 1997. They didn't pursue loose monetary policy during most of this time, and they often increased taxes to attempt to fix the deficit. Hopefully we can learn something from their failures instead of repeating them.

Uh, no. Japan's GDP is $300 billion higher now than in 1997 and was a $1 trillion higher a decade after 1997 prior to the Great Recession.

Japan has raised the Vat while continuing to operate with Deficit spending year after year above 5% of GDP. Neither of those 2 things has anything to do with easing of monetary policy which they have also done. Japan has consistently spent billions of dollars more annually than it has brought in. They also have negative interest rates which is as loose a monetary policy as you can have.  Neither deficit spending nor extremely loose monetary policy has fixed their ills.  The deficit spending of World War 2 was an organic change.  Japan's forced economic expansion has demonstrated that you can't just engineer your way to a healthy economy.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/government-budget

http://www.kushnirs.org/macroeconomics_/en/japan__gdp.html

First of all, while Japan's GDP did increase from 1997 to 2008, I wouldn't use a US dollar-denominated graph to make my point, because now you're adding exchange rate variation fuzziness, which dilutes your point.

Let's separate monetary policy from fiscal policy:

Monetary policy:  the Bank of Japan has held interest rates at near zero for nearly two decades for at least two reasons:  1) the BoJ is trying, mostly in vain, to avoid deflation; 2) the BoJ wants to stimulate GDP growth.  The problem is that Japan is in a liquidity trap, and the interest rate that would spark the inflation the BoJ seeks lies well below the zero lower bound.

Fiscal policy: the Japanese government has run a budget deficit since about 1993.  After the lost decade began, Japanese politicians were loathe to use deficit spending in sufficient quantities to revive the economy, and the economy has essentially stagnated since then (cf. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/gdp-growth).  I assert that the GoJ should have invested much more to fill the gaping hole in aggregate demand from the late '90s.  However, the GoJ only increased their infrastructure investment program after the Great Recession, when the budget deficit increased from about 3 to about 8% of GDP in 2008, though the deficit has declined since.  Japan still hasn't recovered with the kind of growth that would stimulate inflation, and has recorded deflation in the last three quarters (cf. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/core-inflation-rate).

As you mention, they did increase VAT in April 2014, and, as Keynes would predict, the little growth that they experienced just before the rise mostly vanished, as consumers contemplating big-ticket purchases completed them ahead of the VAT increase.  Recognizing its dumb move, the GoJ postponed the second VAT increase, as it would also brake demand even further.

All of this is taking place in the context of population decline in Japan, which also automagically brakes growth.

The BoJ would very much like to have monetary policy take over for fiscal policy in managing the economy, as they recognize that after a while, one runs out of infrastructure construction that makes sense, especially in a country with a declining population.  But with interest rates at zero, they're out of gunpowder.

Nevertheless, I still don't see how Keynes's framework doesn't explain what happened - the models, especially the liquidity trap model - has acquitted itself well.  If anything, Japan's experience, with national debt exceeding 200% of annual GDP, demonstrates overwhelmingly that the U. S. - with very low inflation, moderate growth, moderate budget deficits, and moderate population growth - is in infinitesimal danger of hyperinflation (assuming that is still what this thread is about).

aspiringnomad

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #123 on: July 01, 2016, 12:47:25 PM »
The market's expectation of inflation 5-10 years out remains below the Fed's 2% target: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/T5YIFR

IMO, the chance of hyperinflation of the USD anytime in the next 10 years is infinitesimally remote.

Also, this is well put by elysianfields. I think some other folks here would do well to step away from zerohedge.


That's a bullshit assessment, as Keynes discusses the liquidity trap rather extensively.  Under normal circumstances, lower interest rates should increase the demand for money and help restart the investment cycle.  However, given the low level of aggregate demand, the equilibrium interest rate lies below 0% - which explains why we're seeing negative interest rates in Germany, Austria, Denmark, Switzerland, and elsewhere - but most investors are not willing to lend their cash for securities at a negative interest rate.  Thus, we're observing not the failure of Keynesian economic theory, but rather the limits of monetary policy in a liquidity trap.


samustache

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #124 on: July 01, 2016, 03:48:09 PM »
I think this is pointing to how our foray into Keynesian economic theories has become a dismal failure. All we got was debt and no growth and it's pretty much the same for Europe and Japan.

Keynesian economic theories aren't really to blame for all the debt since he was for counter cyclical spending. i.e. run a surplus + do supply side structural reforms in good times.

Anyway, what else you got? Forays in the opposite direction during the Depression were far worse. 

elysianfields

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #125 on: July 06, 2016, 03:30:45 PM »
The yield on the 10-year T-bill skyrocketed today from 1.321% to 1.3733%, clearly a sign that the hyperinflation apocalypse is upon us!  Man the lifeboats, women and children first!

Syonyk

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #126 on: July 08, 2016, 10:43:11 AM »
Keynesian economic theories aren't really to blame for all the debt since he was for counter cyclical spending. i.e. run a surplus + do supply side structural reforms in good times.

Sadly.  He would barely recognize stuff being done in the name of his theories.

elysianfields

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #127 on: September 29, 2016, 06:03:01 AM »
Inflation is up to a 1.1% annual rate in August (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi) and the interest rate on the ten-year Treasury is up to 1.582% http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/US10YHYPERINFLATION EVERYBODY PANIC!!!!!

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: What do MMM folks think about hyperinflation?
« Reply #128 on: September 29, 2016, 08:29:19 AM »
I'm shocked at how respectful (for the most part) people are being on this thread. It's so rare for Interwebs posters to admit ignorance or seem to genuinely care about learning from others rather than shouting others down. Hell, I've even learned a few things.

In sum, YOU'RE ALL DOING IT WRONG! Sheeple! Something, something, Nazis!

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!