So let me get this straight. For pages and pages, you post as if you are an authority on a subject, using your education level and the fact that you are in the field as evidence your word is to be taken as gospel. When someone proves to you what you are saying is garbage, you THEN look for evidence to see if what you have been saying it actually correct. In that research you still failed to find the articles that say prior to ACA, somewhere between 40% and 60% of foreclosures had a medical bill component. Kind of makes it hard for me to tell if I should ever believe something EnjoyIt says. I wonder if I am alone.
It is too bad... you are a very good writer. I just didn't realize it was fiction.
Maybe you will have to forgive me, I had minor surgery this morning (you know the definition of minor surgery; surgery performed on someone else :). The medications I had today (14 hours prior to this writing) do not allow me to operate heavy machinery, and it is recommended that I do not enter into a binding contract for 24 hours after waking up. I even talked to someone 1 hour ago, and I have NO idea who it was. I might be posting an apology tomorrow, if I remember I posted this, that it.
Thanks for the "good writer" comment. I found that comical. As for the rest. . . . I probably do come off a bit preachy and can't help it because by practicing in this world I get to see all the good and bad our medical system has turned into. I am not without flaws and most definitely not an expert on healthcare policy. When my knowledge and understanding is sparse I research to fill those gaps to help me understand the subject better. In all honesty since this thread has been started by Sol, I have spent a significant amount of time learning more. My comment about people not losing their homes to healthcare bills was accurate. Hospitals and physicians do not go after their patient's belongings. I again admit that I did not realize that there is no law that prevents that from happening. I can equally envision a significant health care related event exacerbating a poor financial situation into bankruptcy. People lost their homes in 2008-2012 not because of healthcare. They lost their homes because they overextended themselves on credit, lost their jobs and could not afford to keep up with their bills. Even a $1k healthcare bill is catastrophic to such a family. All I can tell you is that the health system I work in and the physician group I work for expect 25% of the patients to never pay their bill and believe me we do not own a bunch of foreclosed homes.
I would prefer you did not take everything I say as gospel and do some research on your own. Come back and have a meaningful discussion. Unfortunately there are too many people who throw out these blanket statements such as "we need universal health care." Without digging into it, who can argue with that statement? But how would we transition into such a system? How much will it cost? Who will pay for it? What will happen to all those people who are currently employed to keep our current system afloat? What will keep the costs from skyrocketing? What health services are part of this universal healthcare? The other common comment I see is to look at other countries that have "successful" models and just bring it to the US. Once again they are not really delving into the details of such an endeavor. I would urge before making such a blanket statement to actually look at those details and think about the nuance. These transitions are not that simple to make and I enjoy having an educated discussion with those who have a different opinion.
Radram, I hope your procedure went well and you are underway to a speedy recovery.
I was glad to see you took my humor as it was intended. That was the part I was unsure if I would be apologizing for. It looks like we share the same sense of humor.
Of course your physician group does not own foreclosed homes. You just said they sell the noncollectable debt for pennies on the dollar to let another entity do that work. How can you then infer that medical bills do not impact foreclosures? You need to look at the listed debts of foreclosures to conclude that. I think the best way to do that is to look at the data in 3 pieces: pre 2008, 2009-2012, and 2012 to present.
2008-2012 was such a strange time with the housing crash. If that is the time frame for your conclusion that medical bills were not a significant root cause of foreclosures, I would be interested in seeing data on that. It would not surprise me to see that the housing crash caused more foreclosures and therefore lowered the medical related percentage. I guess you could argue that the crash was GOOD for medical foreclosures percentage wise. It would also not surprise me if the NUMBER of medical foreclosures also INCREASED in this same time frame(while still being a lower percentage as before), because some who might have been willing to take out a second mortgage in order to pay their medical bill would no longer have the equity to do so. I simply have not found data for this time frame. I have also found very little data for the time frame of 2012-today, though admittedly I have not really looked. My thoughts are that more insured people should have led to less medical foreclosures, absent other factors. I would like to read anything you have found.
Since repeal of ACA is so desirable in congress, I think it is very worthwhile to look at data prior to ACA and prior to the housing crash. There are volumes of data available for this.
Here is an example report that shows that prior to the housing crash, and prior to ACA, medical bills were very much a factor in home foreclosures:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/"They concluded that 62.1 percent of the bankruptcies were medically related because the individuals either had more than $5,000 (or 10 percent of their pretax income) in medical bills, mortgaged their home to pay for medical bills, or lost significant income due to an illness. On average, medically bankrupt families had $17,943 in out-of-pocket expenses, including $26,971 for those who lacked insurance and $17,749 who had insurance at some point."
I can certainly understand how someone could conclude that $5000 in medical bills should not alone trigger a foreclosure, so I would claim that the 62% number is inflated. Still, average within that group was close to $18,000, which shows me that prior to 2009 medical bills were absolutely more than a trivial factor.
I guess when discussing a post ACA world, we must try to figure out where we are most likely to be based on what the replacement is. Based on the CBO report of the house bill, I would conclude we would return more toward a pre-2009 situation, and medical foreclosures will continue to be a factor. It is also possible that leaving ACA unchanged also returns us to the same period. The CBO does not agree with that at this time, but other proposals (Medicaid cuts for example), might change that.
My procedure went great. Umbilical hernia. Strangely enough I had ZERO pain with no meds except for 2 doses in recovery for the entire first day. Feels like the day after a kitchen knife cut today.
The hernia was very small, but I decided to have it done now. This procedure gave me several talking points related to this thread. I knew about it last year, after having another issue that caused me to meet my maximum out of pocket for the year. I have had it for years without even knowing it. Primary Care Physician said I had it and should consider getting a consult for repair. It would have cost $0 last year but I decided to wait because there was no pain and it did not effect my life. I thought I was making the best MEDICAL decision, if not the best FINANCIAL one. 2 months ago, my dog jumped on my lap while playing, and just happened to place a paw on the exact spot. That did not feel good, so uncomfortable, in fact, I decided to have it fixed now, even though so far this year I have spent $0 on healthcare. Due to other things in my life, I was unable to take the time to use this experience as a fact finding mission. It would have been a good one. 1 surgeon with admitting privileges in 2 locations in the same small town. I did not even bother calling each facility to ask how much, as I have zero confidence anyone would actually be able to tell me.
As a physician I would be very interested in your opinion regarding using a calendar to make medical decisions. Is that really the best way to get the best patient outcomes? Does that kind of dialog drive you nuts? I know it does me.