Author Topic: What comes after the ACA?  (Read 1468138 times)

sherr

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6500 on: November 05, 2020, 08:32:20 AM »
I recommend everyone in the country to take half an hour or so and read this excellent interview with Former Speaker Newt Gingrich. If you're wondering how we wound up here politically, he'll proudly tell you why: because this is how he made it and wants it to be. And it apparently works, so Republicans have kept doing it since.

So what is your path forward?  To convince half the population to go all in on the democrats?

What's yours? To keep on electing openly-obstructionist Republicans and then continuously blame the Dems for failing to get anything done?

And no actually I don't expect everyone to magically become Democrats. But it would be nice if Republicans would start rejecting this kind of Republicanism, and start electing people who actually want to do their jobs. But we all know that's not likely as long as "compromise" and "moderate" are dirty words that only "RINOs" use, is it?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 08:35:58 AM by sherr »

ixtap

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6501 on: November 05, 2020, 08:34:15 AM »
I recommend everyone in the country to take half an hour or so and read this excellent interview with Former Speaker Newt Gingrich. If you're wondering how we wound up here politically, he'll proudly tell you why: because this is how he made it and wants it to be. And it apparently works, so Republicans have kept doing it since.

So what is your path forward?  To convince half the population to go all in on the democrats?

What's yours? To keep on electing openly-obstructionist Republicans and then continuously blame the Dems for failing to get anything done?

It seems to be a popular stance, so surely someone on this forum must hold it.

toocold

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6502 on: November 05, 2020, 08:35:44 AM »
I recommend everyone in the country to take half an hour or so and read this excellent interview with Former Speaker Newt Gingrich. If you're wondering how we wound up here politically, he'll proudly tell you why: because this is how he made it and wants it to be. And it apparently works, so Republicans have kept doing it since.

So what is your path forward?  To convince half the population to go all in on the democrats?

What's yours? To keep on electing openly-obstructionist Republicans and then continuously blame the Dems for failing to get anything done?

To hope for the best and if Biden wins, that he is able to work across the aisle with the Republicans and come to some compromise.  That's why I voted blue this time.

And I don't blame the democrats for failing to get anything done, but as you can tell, I'm a centrist and I think when both sides agree on something, it's better than a policy by one party or another.  That's how this system was built.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 08:37:49 AM by toocold »

GuitarStv

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6503 on: November 05, 2020, 08:52:54 AM »
And I don't blame the democrats for failing to get anything done, but as you can tell, I'm a centrist and I think when both sides agree on something, it's better than a policy by one party or another.  That's how this system was built.

As a centrist, you believe that the Republicans will negotiate with the democrats in good faith?

toocold

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6504 on: November 05, 2020, 08:56:58 AM »
And I don't blame the democrats for failing to get anything done, but as you can tell, I'm a centrist and I think when both sides agree on something, it's better than a policy by one party or another.  That's how this system was built.

As a centrist, you believe that the Republicans will negotiate with the democrats in good faith?

Yes.  They were able to pass the stimulus bill together, and it was a good thing.  On healthcare, this may shock people but HHS has advanced some changes to value based contracting that continue towards value based care and price transparency.   There are many policies that are agreed-upon by both sides.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 09:00:31 AM by toocold »

sherr

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6505 on: November 05, 2020, 09:05:28 AM »
As a centrist, you believe that the Republicans will negotiate with the democrats in good faith?

Yes.  They were able to pass the stimulus bill together, and it was a good thing.  On healthcare, this may shock people but HHS has advanced some changes to value based contracting that continue towards value based care and price transparency.   There are many policies that are agreed-upon by both sides.

Yes, UNDER A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT. Because Democrats do negotiate / compromise in good faith with Republicans. Things will change drastically when Biden takes office.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 09:10:24 AM by sherr »

toocold

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6506 on: November 05, 2020, 09:15:12 AM »
As a centrist, you believe that the Republicans will negotiate with the democrats in good faith?

Yes.  They were able to pass the stimulus bill together, and it was a good thing.  On healthcare, this may shock people but HHS has advanced some changes to value based contracting that continue towards value based care and price transparency.   There are many policies that are agreed-upon by both sides.

Yes, UNDER A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT. Because Democrats do negotiate / compromise in good faith with Republicans. Things will change drastically when Biden takes office.

Having been in this industry for a very long time prior to FIRE, I can tell you that there are many things that progress without it always going through congress.  The policies of HHS are very consistent through administrations.

I suggest just chilling a bit and see what happens.  :)

sherr

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6507 on: November 05, 2020, 09:18:25 AM »
Having been in this industry for a very long time prior to FIRE, I can tell you that there are many things that progress without it always going through congress.  The policies of HHS are very consistent through administrations.

I suggest just chilling a bit and see what happens.  :)

I was more talking about the legislation than the HHS policies, since we were discussing congress. But yes, chilling and seeing what happens is about the only choice any of us have now. I hereby predict that Biden will get basically nothing done legislatively because the Republican Senate will obstruct everything. Let's see what happens.

ixtap

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6508 on: November 05, 2020, 09:40:37 AM »
Having been in this industry for a very long time prior to FIRE, I can tell you that there are many things that progress without it always going through congress.  The policies of HHS are very consistent through administrations.

I suggest just chilling a bit and see what happens.  :)

I was more talking about the legislation than the HHS policies, since we were discussing congress. But yes, chilling and seeing what happens is about the only choice any of us have now. I hereby predict that Biden will get basically nothing done legislatively because the Republican Senate will obstruct everything. Let's see what happens.

So massive shutdowns and restrictions, rather than pretending like there isn't a problem?


sherr

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6509 on: November 05, 2020, 09:49:46 AM »
Having been in this industry for a very long time prior to FIRE, I can tell you that there are many things that progress without it always going through congress.  The policies of HHS are very consistent through administrations.

I suggest just chilling a bit and see what happens.  :)

I was more talking about the legislation than the HHS policies, since we were discussing congress. But yes, chilling and seeing what happens is about the only choice any of us have now. I hereby predict that Biden will get basically nothing done legislatively because the Republican Senate will obstruct everything. Let's see what happens.

So massive shutdowns and restrictions, rather than pretending like there isn't a problem?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but yes I expect there will be at least one, perhaps multiple, government shutdowns in the next two years due to the Senate refusing to compromise on a funding bill and relying on being able to blame Biden / "The Democrats Who Won't Compromise With Us" for it.

ixtap

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6510 on: November 05, 2020, 10:50:02 AM »
Having been in this industry for a very long time prior to FIRE, I can tell you that there are many things that progress without it always going through congress.  The policies of HHS are very consistent through administrations.

I suggest just chilling a bit and see what happens.  :)

I was more talking about the legislation than the HHS policies, since we were discussing congress. But yes, chilling and seeing what happens is about the only choice any of us have now. I hereby predict that Biden will get basically nothing done legislatively because the Republican Senate will obstruct everything. Let's see what happens.

So massive shutdowns and restrictions, rather than pretending like there isn't a problem?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but yes I expect there will be at least one, perhaps multiple, government shutdowns in the next two years due to the Senate refusing to compromise on a funding bill and relying on being able to blame Biden / "The Democrats Who Won't Compromise With Us" for it.

You don't understand what I am trying to say because I responded to the wrong thread...

toocold

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6511 on: November 05, 2020, 11:03:20 AM »
Having been in this industry for a very long time prior to FIRE, I can tell you that there are many things that progress without it always going through congress.  The policies of HHS are very consistent through administrations.

I suggest just chilling a bit and see what happens.  :)

I was more talking about the legislation than the HHS policies, since we were discussing congress. But yes, chilling and seeing what happens is about the only choice any of us have now. I hereby predict that Biden will get basically nothing done legislatively because the Republican Senate will obstruct everything. Let's see what happens.

Historically, major healthcare legislation only happens every decade or 2 decades or 3, so I don't hope for legislation.  Most of the execution happens within HHS.  I agree with you that in terms of legislation, it's unlikely to happen.  Even when the Republicans had power, they couldn't pass the ACA repeal legislation (which I am glad it did not pass).

Most of the battle has been in the courts (as everybody knows).  In my opinion, it'll be hard to repeal the ACA based on the severability issue.  PPACA was a monstrous piece of legislation that has permeated throughout healthcare beyond the exchanges and subsidies, and I am not sure if it is feasible to repeal it without breaking the entire healthcare system.  Here is a good summary of what's in that legislation -- can you imagine trying to pull back all these things that have been executed on? 

https://www.kff.org/health-reform/fact-sheet/summary-of-the-affordable-care-act/

But you never know.  I'll worry if it happens because I get my HI from the exchanges.


« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 11:04:59 AM by toocold »

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6512 on: November 05, 2020, 01:56:13 PM »
Maybe it's a fear of creeping Socialism.  All they have to do is to look North of the border and see possible impact on the bottom line.  They may not be able to stop health care reform, but if they can delay it another generation that's all they need.  You'll note a similar tact seems to be the reaction to global warming.

Despite negative caricatures of conservatives against government involvement in healthcare, the fact is that most of the common voters who are against it believe that the government will mess it up. It's as simple as that. Note this is not talking about politicians against it, just average people.
This part perplexes me. If we had something good now and there was fear of breaking it, that would be one thing. But the current system is so utterly broken it is hard to argue that just about anything with actual intentions to help would be worse.

I say intentions to improve to weed out he republican non-plans that just want to dismantle ACA with no viable replacement.

Well people are sheep. Just look at our elections where 50% of the country can elect such a clown to be President! Not only that he spreads dangerous ideas. and most of his followers agree with them.

People are so married to the "religious dogma" of "Socialism is baaaad", that logic simply flys out the window.

Whats more the American HC system works very well indeed.. if you're rich!

 HC Is a profit making machine so uber rich folks (like politicians) have precisely no incentive to fix the system for the average person in the street.

Case in point.. I broke my wrist last year. My insurance was billed $28k for the surgery. Now I made more than $28k in 2019 from the HC portion of my stock index funds. If I had more millions I'd make even more money, so in theory its awesome!

Why would I want "free" HC where the companies in that sector would pay a fraction of the dividends they do today?
Is it even working for the rich though?

I’ve spent most of my life with Kaiser and got used to things just being integrated and working. These past six months we have been on not-Kaiser through my husband’s work due to a move. While we have very generous insurance and even a concierge service to help fight bills and explain benefits, it has been a dumpster fire. The inefficiencies are breathtaking and the difficulty of getting care has been a real stressor for me. Thankfully we are going back to Kaiser in January and so I just have a To Do list now of minor health concerns to deal with then once I am back in a smoothly-run system. In my short experience in the outside world I would say the American healthcare system is fundamentally  broken for everyone.

I too recently left Kaiser due to a move. While my experience in the more traditional, non-Kaiser world hasn't been a "dumpster fire", you are right about Kaiser being more efficient. And I think the integrated system usually results in better care.
Glad your experience has been better

American GenX

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6513 on: November 05, 2020, 03:24:07 PM »
Not really. Nevada looks like it might had the Presidency to Biden but that won't flip the Senate.

So then its down to SCOTUS.. Yipes!

Yes, this has been dragging out for so long, and everything seems to be going against me on the matter to this point - previous rulings in lower courts, RBG passing, new conservative justice appointed, Senate election results to this point, and now likely another 7 months to hear a SCOTUS ruling.  It's difficult to be optimistic the way the dominoes keep falling, and I have to keep working in the meantime.

Mr. Green

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6514 on: November 06, 2020, 10:10:19 AM »
It's pretty clear that Biden is the winner at this point. Does this mean anything for the case before SCOTUS? Can newly installed DOJ officials decide not to support it and have an effect or is the fact that it's Republican governors vs. Democratic governors mean there's not a whole lot the Feds in the executive branch can do at this point?

Looks like both Georgia Senate seats are going to a runoff so it's possible the Dems could take a 50 seat "majority" in the Senate with the VP as the tie-breaker but that seems like a tall order, winning both Senate seats. I'm sure the money that's about to pour into those campaigns running up to January will be insane.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 10:12:46 AM by Mr. Green »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6515 on: November 06, 2020, 11:05:23 AM »

It's pretty clear that Biden is the winner at this point. Does this mean anything for the case before SCOTUS?

Yes it does  Mr. Green.

A win for Biden boots the argument in favor of statutory stare decisis.

When "correction can be had by legislation" the Court is less inclined to overturn a precedent which is another way of saying the Court is more inclined to apply statutory stare decisis.

As a Democrat,  Biden  is  likely to sign ACA-changing legislation passed by his fellow Democrats who hold a majority in the House so his election increases the probability of "correction...by legislation."




When great difficulty, such as resort to a constitutional amendment  attends overturning a baldly erroneous precedent,  arguments for application of stare decisis are much  less persuasive  than when   the political branches can exercise their  power to  alter the precedent-setting legislation or  enact new legislation instead as is the case regarding the latest challenge to the ACA the Court will hear this month.

 Note that at its inception and long after the Supreme Court  gave  equal weight to  the statutory aspect or constitutional aspect of a precedent. It wasn't until well into the 20th century that  the Court gravitated to greater deference  to statutory precedents.


In his dissent  in Burnet, Justice Brandeis explains that the Court's overturn of an erroneous precedent will hinge upon  whether  "correction can be had by legislation" or "correction through legislative action is practically impossible."




BURNET, Commissioner of Internal Revenue, v.CORONADO OIL & GAS CO.
(1932)

Mr. Justice Brandeis (dissenting).


Stare decisis is not, like the rule of res judicata, universal inexorable command.
 
The rule of stare decisis, though one tending to consistency and uniformity of decision, is not inflexible. Whether it shall be followed or departed from is a question entirely within the discretion of the court, which is again called upon to consider a question once decided.

  Stare decisis is usually the wise policy, because in most matters it is more important that the applicable rule of law be settled than that it be settled right.

This is commonly true even where the error is a matter of serious concern, provided correction can be had by legislation.

But in cases involving the Federal Constitution, where correction through legislative action is practically impossible, this court has often overruled its earlier decisions.

The court bows to the lessons of experience and the force of better reasoning, recognizing that the process of trial and error, so fruitful in the physical sciences, is appropriate also in the judicial function.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 11:32:32 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

rab-bit

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6516 on: November 06, 2020, 12:31:57 PM »

It's pretty clear that Biden is the winner at this point. Does this mean anything for the case before SCOTUS?

Yes it does  Mr. Green.

A win for Biden boots the argument in favor of statutory stare decisis.

When "correction can be had by legislation" the Court is less inclined to overturn a precedent which is another way of saying the Court is more inclined to apply statutory stare decisis.

As a Democrat,  Biden  is  likely to sign ACA-changing legislation passed by his fellow Democrats who hold a majority in the House so his election increases the probability of "correction...by legislation."

[snip]


Assuming the most likely scenario at this point, that the Dems retain the majority in the House, Reps retain the majority in the Senate and Biden wins the presidency, it seems that this legislative correction would put Senate Republicans in the odd position of opposing the repeal of the individual mandate that they have long sought. I will be interested to see the intellectual gymnastics that they will need to perform in justifying this opposition.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 01:02:16 PM by rab-bit »

pecunia

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6517 on: November 06, 2020, 03:22:59 PM »
Will there be any possible way that pressure can be put on old Mitch to get things moving on ACA improvements or anything else?

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6518 on: November 06, 2020, 03:49:55 PM »
Will there be any possible way that pressure can be put on old Mitch to get things moving on ACA improvements or anything else?

Lol

katsiki

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6519 on: November 06, 2020, 05:36:21 PM »
Will there be any possible way that pressure can be put on old Mitch to get things moving on ACA improvements or anything else?

No.  Senate will try to block anything it doesn't like if R's keep control.

ixtap

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6520 on: November 06, 2020, 05:40:06 PM »
Will there be any possible way that pressure can be put on old Mitch to get things moving on ACA improvements or anything else?

No.  Senate will try to block anything it doesn't like if R's keep control.

Graham has said he would probably tell Biden who an acceptable cabinet member might be. Maybe.

dresden

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6521 on: November 07, 2020, 10:53:11 AM »
Will there be any possible way that pressure can be put on old Mitch to get things moving on ACA improvements or anything else?

Despite republican rhetoric the republicans have to understand that ACA only accounts for 5% of healthcare subsidies for folks under 65 - it's a rounding area in the budget and aside from the cost side it's offset by associated taxes making the net budget amount even smaller.

This was an issue primarily highlighted by Donald Trump - the republican party would be well served to be part of the solution which primarily fills in gaps for self-employed, gig workers and early retirees - all of which are voters they don't want to alienate (and in some cases win back).

It's good politics to be part of the solution and the dems would be well-served to compromise as well.  The foundation of ACA is based on a republican plan. 

I am independent with a history of voting both democrat and republican and never voted straight ticket in my life until this year (I voted democrat primarily due to healthcare).  I will never vote for a republican again until they end their war on healthcare.

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6522 on: November 07, 2020, 11:56:11 AM »

It's pretty clear that Biden is the winner at this point. Does this mean anything for the case before SCOTUS?

Yes it does  Mr. Green.

A win for Biden boots the argument in favor of statutory stare decisis.

When "correction can be had by legislation" the Court is less inclined to overturn a precedent which is another way of saying the Court is more inclined to apply statutory stare decisis.

As a Democrat,  Biden  is  likely to sign ACA-changing legislation passed by his fellow Democrats who hold a majority in the House so his election increases the probability of "correction...by legislation."

[snip]


Assuming the most likely scenario at this point, that the Dems retain the majority in the House, Reps retain the majority in the Senate and Biden wins the presidency, it seems that this legislative correction would put Senate Republicans in the odd position of opposing the repeal of the individual mandate that they have long sought. I will be interested to see the intellectual gymnastics that they will need to perform in justifying this opposition.


 Congressional Republicans and Democrats may have sharply  opposed views as to what constitutes  "legislative correction."

If federal governance  is configured as you posted which does seem likely, and the justices think that  gridlock of the ACA will continue,  statutory stare decisis remains applicable  for the reason that its application hinges upon the fact that Congress  has  power to act or not, which it does here, which precludes the Court's resort to constitutional stare decisis.

The justices do not concern  themselves with the "wisdom or unwisdom" of Congress' constitutional exercise of its power so under the federal governance you posted it seems  likely that no major changes to the ACA are in the offing.

 "Whether wisdom or unwisdom resides in the scheme of benefits set forth in Title II, it is not for us to say. The answer to such inquiries must come from Congress, not the courts. Our concern here, as often, is with power, not with wisdom." Justice Cardozo 1937
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 03:31:31 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Mr. Green

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6523 on: November 07, 2020, 02:14:14 PM »
The strange thing to me is that Republicans have just as much to gain, if not more, than Democrats by passing healthcare reform. Poor is poor, whether you're a liberal leaning person in the city or a conservative-leaning person in rural America. There are tons of poor rural people who would benefit from a good healthcare system in this country. The big difference is rural people tend to have more of a "I don't need any government help" attitude, even if it actually means poorer health outcomes because they can't afford insurance or to go to the doctor. I'll never understand why this is such a partisan issue. There are a ton of constituents, on both sides of the aisle, that would benefit. What argument can a Representative from a rural district give for not wanting his constituants to have better access to healthcare? It's weird.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 02:19:12 PM by Mr. Green »

Exflyboy

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6524 on: November 07, 2020, 02:49:16 PM »
The strange thing to me is that Republicans have just as much to gain, if not more, than Democrats by passing healthcare reform. Poor is poor, whether you're a liberal leaning person in the city or a conservative-leaning person in rural America. There are tons of poor rural people who would benefit from a good healthcare system in this country. The big difference is rural people tend to have more of a "I don't need any government help" attitude, even if it actually means poorer health outcomes because they can't afford insurance or to go to the doctor. I'll never understand why this is such a partisan issue. There are a ton of constituents, on both sides of the aisle, that would benefit. What argument can a Representative from a rural district give for not wanting his constituants to have better access to healthcare? It's weird.

This is the giant con that uneducated people have had foisted upon them.

I.e Socialism = bad = Venezuela.

They have no idea that Socialism comes in many different flavours and that some systems can be socialist and exist quite happily alongside capital markets.

I mean Medicare is a single payer (Federally funded) system. Sounds pretty socialist to me! But you mention single payer HC and they assume you are a monster that has come to eat their children! It makes no sense. "we spent decades and our lives fighting them thar Commies so we don't want to go there". Even though the evidence that single payer systems are vastly cheaper than what we have now.

They are afraid of something they have been told is evil and they won't hear of it. Add to that the Q-anon Deep State conspiracies that tells them their very way of life is being undermined (under attack from immigrants too) and before you know it the USA is starting to look like Germany in 1933.

I too believe in a conspiracy.. Thats says, people should be separated from their money at every opportunity. Keep people in debt and they are your slave forever. This is not a left vs right thing.. its a rich Vs poor thing.




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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6525 on: November 07, 2020, 03:20:59 PM »
The strange thing to me is that Republicans have just as much to gain, if not more, than Democrats by passing healthcare reform. Poor is poor, whether you're a liberal leaning person in the city or a conservative-leaning person in rural America. There are tons of poor rural people who would benefit from a good healthcare system in this country. The big difference is rural people tend to have more of a "I don't need any government help" attitude, even if it actually means poorer health outcomes because they can't afford insurance or to go to the doctor. I'll never understand why this is such a partisan issue. There are a ton of constituents, on both sides of the aisle, that would benefit. What argument can a Representative from a rural district give for not wanting his constituants to have better access to healthcare? It's weird.



In the minds of some "rural people," I think  "I don't need any government help" is another way of expressing their   aversion to what used  to be called  "taking charity," an aversion by no means vestigial.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 03:22:36 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Mr. Green

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6526 on: November 07, 2020, 05:34:17 PM »
The strange thing to me is that Republicans have just as much to gain, if not more, than Democrats by passing healthcare reform. Poor is poor, whether you're a liberal leaning person in the city or a conservative-leaning person in rural America. There are tons of poor rural people who would benefit from a good healthcare system in this country. The big difference is rural people tend to have more of a "I don't need any government help" attitude, even if it actually means poorer health outcomes because they can't afford insurance or to go to the doctor. I'll never understand why this is such a partisan issue. There are a ton of constituents, on both sides of the aisle, that would benefit. What argument can a Representative from a rural district give for not wanting his constituants to have better access to healthcare? It's weird.



In the minds of some "rural people," I think  "I don't need any government help" is another way of expressing their   aversion to what used  to be called  "taking charity," an aversion by no means vestigial.
The irony is so strong for me because cities only exist because we have learned that we can accomplish more collectively than we can individually, the same way two horses can pull more than two times the weight that one horse can pull. Cities aren't for everyone. They're definitely not for me, but the same principals of communal advancement can apply to things like healthcare outside of cities. Sure hospitals may not be as good because the appeal isn't there to attract top doctors but we can still use our collective buying power to create a system that would serve all of us better. The same concept applies to government (corruption notwithstanding) at the most basic level. We only have it because we have learned that it can improve our collective lives.

American GenX

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6527 on: November 07, 2020, 09:31:03 PM »
Will there be any possible way that pressure can be put on old Mitch to get things moving on ACA improvements or anything else?

They could have put pressure on McConnell to save the ACA and failed to do so when they had the chance.

https://prospect.org/health/pelosi-can-save-obamacare-with-a-one-line-amendment-updated/

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6528 on: November 08, 2020, 12:50:02 AM »
Will there be any possible way that pressure can be put on old Mitch to get things moving on ACA improvements or anything else?

They could have put pressure on McConnell to save the ACA and failed to do so when they had the chance.

https://prospect.org/health/pelosi-can-save-obamacare-with-a-one-line-amendment-updated/
So, basically, you think Pelosi should have threatened a government shutdown one month before the election?

pecunia

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6529 on: November 08, 2020, 05:01:49 AM »

 - Ker Snip -

I too believe in a conspiracy.. Thats says, people should be separated from their money at every opportunity. Keep people in debt and they are your slave forever. This is not a left vs right thing.. its a rich Vs poor thing.

I guess I never thought of capitalism as a conspiracy.  I guess it is.

bmjohnson35

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6530 on: November 08, 2020, 09:08:54 AM »

Capitalism is no more a conspiracy than socialism.  They're both flawed in their own ways.  I was raised in a republican household and I have always been told that less government is the better solution.  As I get older, I have become more central in my political views.  I have also come to believe that the best overall solution is a balance between these two apposing ideologies.

Rich vs. poor is probably too much of a generalization.  I do believe in the conspiracy theory that a small percentage of society seeks to maintain control over politics to serve their interests.  I don't think this is specific to capitalism.  They use both of our political parties to maintain that control. 

Sid Hoffman

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6531 on: November 08, 2020, 01:24:50 PM »
I was raised in a republican household and I have always been told that less government is the better solution.

So what is less? What is more? And how much to change from year to year? In every country, the amount of taxation and government control changes year by year, so it's always less and it's always more. Never once in my life have I ever seen anyone say "This right here - this is just the right amount of taxation and government, we did it and can leave it alone now!" It's always going to be give and take. A pendulum that swings back and forth, fore and aft. Just keep your seatbelt on because it will never be right, and it will never sit still.

bmjohnson35

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6532 on: November 08, 2020, 02:52:57 PM »
I was raised in a republican household and I have always been told that less government is the better solution.

So what is less? What is more? And how much to change from year to year? In every country, the amount of taxation and government control changes year by year, so it's always less and it's always more. Never once in my life have I ever seen anyone say "This right here - this is just the right amount of taxation and government, we did it and can leave it alone now!" It's always going to be give and take. A pendulum that swings back and forth, fore and aft. Just keep your seatbelt on because it will never be right, and it will never sit still.

Agreed.

ctuser1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6533 on: November 08, 2020, 03:09:07 PM »
I was raised in a republican household and I have always been told that less government is the better solution.

So what is less? What is more? And how much to change from year to year? In every country, the amount of taxation and government control changes year by year, so it's always less and it's always more. Never once in my life have I ever seen anyone say "This right here - this is just the right amount of taxation and government, we did it and can leave it alone now!" It's always going to be give and take. A pendulum that swings back and forth, fore and aft. Just keep your seatbelt on because it will never be right, and it will never sit still.

My personal view - it *should* oscillate between some reasonable boundaries or left and right, "more" and "less", over every few decades.

Why?

There are pros and cons to both having more government, and having less. So, a static answer to this question generally gives you suboptimal results.

In practical terms, this would mean political culture to swing between FDR and "a bit to the right of Nixon" (note: I did not say Reagan as his economic policies were ideology driven and hence very harmful).

US has wayyy overshot in one ideological direction and a correction is way past overdue. Ideologies are evil! My fear is that the overshooting has continued so far that the entire system may be destabilized this time around.

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6534 on: November 08, 2020, 04:11:56 PM »
I was raised in a republican household and I have always been told that less government is the better solution.

So what is less? What is more? And how much to change from year to year? In every country, the amount of taxation and government control changes year by year, so it's always less and it's always more. Never once in my life have I ever seen anyone say "This right here - this is just the right amount of taxation and government, we did it and can leave it alone now!" It's always going to be give and take. A pendulum that swings back and forth, fore and aft. Just keep your seatbelt on because it will never be right, and it will never sit still.

My personal view - it *should* oscillate between some reasonable boundaries or left and right, "more" and "less", over every few decades.

Why?

There are pros and cons to both having more government, and having less. So, a static answer to this question generally gives you suboptimal results.

In practical terms, this would mean political culture to swing between FDR and "a bit to the right of Nixon" (note: I did not say Reagan as his economic policies were ideology driven and hence very harmful).

US has wayyy overshot in one ideological direction and a correction is way past overdue. Ideologies are evil! My fear is that the overshooting has continued so far that the entire system may be destabilized this time around.

I disagree with your sweeping condemnation that ideologies are evil.


The ideology of liberal democracy  such as that of America and the European Union  is uplifting of man whereas the  totalitarian, ultrastatist  ideology of North Korea is abhorrently oppressive.


ctuser1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6535 on: November 08, 2020, 04:15:50 PM »
I was raised in a republican household and I have always been told that less government is the better solution.

So what is less? What is more? And how much to change from year to year? In every country, the amount of taxation and government control changes year by year, so it's always less and it's always more. Never once in my life have I ever seen anyone say "This right here - this is just the right amount of taxation and government, we did it and can leave it alone now!" It's always going to be give and take. A pendulum that swings back and forth, fore and aft. Just keep your seatbelt on because it will never be right, and it will never sit still.

My personal view - it *should* oscillate between some reasonable boundaries or left and right, "more" and "less", over every few decades.

Why?

There are pros and cons to both having more government, and having less. So, a static answer to this question generally gives you suboptimal results.

In practical terms, this would mean political culture to swing between FDR and "a bit to the right of Nixon" (note: I did not say Reagan as his economic policies were ideology driven and hence very harmful).

US has wayyy overshot in one ideological direction and a correction is way past overdue. Ideologies are evil! My fear is that the overshooting has continued so far that the entire system may be destabilized this time around.

I disagree with your sweeping condemnation that ideologies are evil.


The ideology of liberal democracy  such as that of America and the European Union  is uplifting of man whereas the  totalitarian, ultrastatist  ideology of North Korea is abhorrently oppressive.

That's perfectly fine - but mathematics (i.e. the language God used to program the universe) would dis-disagree with you.

There is a pretty simple half-a-page proof (that I encountered in a 2-level undergraduate Computer Science course) showing that any logic system we humans build is incapable of answering all questions that can be posed within it.

This is one "proof sketch", I *know* there is a much simpler one using Turing Machine indeterminacy - but can't find it in my 1 minute google search.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_sketch_for_G%C3%B6del%27s_first_incompleteness_theorem

« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 04:18:41 PM by ctuser1 »

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6536 on: November 09, 2020, 02:20:44 AM »
I was raised in a republican household and I have always been told that less government is the better solution.

So what is less? What is more? And how much to change from year to year? In every country, the amount of taxation and government control changes year by year, so it's always less and it's always more. Never once in my life have I ever seen anyone say "This right here - this is just the right amount of taxation and government, we did it and can leave it alone now!" It's always going to be give and take. A pendulum that swings back and forth, fore and aft. Just keep your seatbelt on because it will never be right, and it will never sit still.

My personal view - it *should* oscillate between some reasonable boundaries or left and right, "more" and "less", over every few decades.

Why?

There are pros and cons to both having more government, and having less. So, a static answer to this question generally gives you suboptimal results.

In practical terms, this would mean political culture to swing between FDR and "a bit to the right of Nixon" (note: I did not say Reagan as his economic policies were ideology driven and hence very harmful).

US has wayyy overshot in one ideological direction and a correction is way past overdue. Ideologies are evil! My fear is that the overshooting has continued so far that the entire system may be destabilized this time around.

I disagree with your sweeping condemnation that ideologies are evil.


The ideology of liberal democracy  such as that of America and the European Union  is uplifting of man whereas the  totalitarian, ultrastatist  ideology of North Korea is abhorrently oppressive.

That's perfectly fine - but mathematics (i.e. the language God used to program the universe) would dis-disagree with you.

There is a pretty simple half-a-page proof (that I encountered in a 2-level undergraduate Computer Science course) showing that any logic system we humans build is incapable of answering all questions that can be posed within it.

This is one "proof sketch", I *know* there is a much simpler one using Turing Machine indeterminacy - but can't find it in my 1 minute google search.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_sketch_for_G%C3%B6del%27s_first_incompleteness_theorem
"Liberal democracy" isn't an ideology, it's just a label that we pin onto a least worse system developed over centuries of trial and error.

ctuser1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6537 on: November 09, 2020, 03:09:40 AM »
"Liberal democracy" isn't an ideology, it's just a label that we pin onto a least worse system developed over centuries of trial and error.

Well, like you implied, Liberal Democracy is at it's best when it does not try to behave like an ideology, but rather engages itself with the mundane, day-to-day pragmatic concerns of helping it's citizens.

Unfortunately, just like any other logic system(s), it does have tendencies of engaging in ideological discourse and get into plenty of trouble. e.g. 1 - limits of free speech vs. crying fire in a theater. e.g.2 - how tolerant do you want to be of intolerance. etc. etc. etc. There are many well documented works spanning multiple millennia that describes ways in which an ideological liberal democracy can get in trouble and destroy itself because of it's ideological pursuits.

I chose to respond to John Galt Incernate by invoking mathematics, and avoided going into such lengthy discussions of how Liberal Democracy can get into trouble by acting in ideological ways plainly because mathematical truth is the highest form of truth possible in the world and hence is preferable, when available, to any other - lower - levels of human discourse.

 

pecunia

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6538 on: November 09, 2020, 08:00:23 AM »
We want to be free to spend 2x as much as our neighbor and 30% over the second highest per capita spending OECD country (Switzerland) and STILL get worse results.

What do you have against freedom, commie?

Yeh - I can see this over priced medicine we have in the US being twisted as the "high price for freedom."  You can sell refrigerators in the Arctic.

bmjohnson35

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6539 on: November 09, 2020, 08:35:57 AM »

Even communism sounds good on paper. The weak leak in all of them is us....humans.  Liberal Democracy does seem to be the best so far at allowing us a reasonable amount of freedom and managing our inherent weaknesses. 

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6540 on: November 09, 2020, 08:49:29 AM »



"Liberal democracy" isn't an ideology
, it's just a label that we pin onto a least worse system developed over centuries of trial and error.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”  Winston S. Churchill.

I disagree.

 Characteristics 1-6 in ENCYCLOPEDIA.COM's description of liberal democracy are "ideals," "principles," "tenets," etc., which are included under  the definition of "ideology."

Moreover, the definition itself includes "the ideology of democracy."





i·de·ol·o·gy
/ˌīdēˈäləjē,ˌidēˈäləjē/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1.
a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.

"the ideology of democracy"

Similar:

beliefs
ideas
ideals
principles
doctrine
creed
credo
teaching
dogma
theory
thesis
tenets
canon(s)
conviction(s)
persuasion
opinions
position
ethics
morals





ENCYCLOPEDIA.COM


At a minimum, liberal democracy is characterized by the following:

1. Widespread political participation by adult citizens, including members of minority groups that include racial,ethnic, religious, linguistic, and economic minorities;


2. Secret ballots and frequent regular elections;

3. Broad freedom of individuals to form and support political parties, with each party free to present its views and form a government;

4. Governments that can alter, interpret, and enforce laws to suit (within limits) the majority's preferences;

5. Effective guarantees of individual and minority rights, especially in areas such as freedom of speech, press, conscience, religion, assembly, and equal treatment before the law; and

6. Limited governmental powers, which are kept in check by constitutional guarantees including separation of powers (so that all executive, legislative, and judicial powers are not, in effect, exercised by the same person or institution).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 08:58:21 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6541 on: November 09, 2020, 08:53:26 AM »


That's perfectly fine - but mathematics (i.e. the language God used to program the universe) would dis-disagree with you.

There is a pretty simple half-a-page proof (that I encountered in a 2-level undergraduate Computer Science course) showing that any logic system we humans build is incapable of answering all questions that can be posed within it.

This is one "proof sketch", I *know* there is a much simpler one using Turing Machine indeterminacy - but can't find it in my 1 minute google search.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_sketch_for_G%C3%B6del%27s_first_incompleteness_theorem

I'll look this up.

ctuser1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6542 on: November 09, 2020, 09:18:13 AM »


That's perfectly fine - but mathematics (i.e. the language God used to program the universe) would dis-disagree with you.

There is a pretty simple half-a-page proof (that I encountered in a 2-level undergraduate Computer Science course) showing that any logic system we humans build is incapable of answering all questions that can be posed within it.

This is one "proof sketch", I *know* there is a much simpler one using Turing Machine indeterminacy - but can't find it in my 1 minute google search.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_sketch_for_G%C3%B6del%27s_first_incompleteness_theorem

I'll look this up.

The wiki articles on this are technical.

Here is a blog with much more approachable description of what is going on:
https://infinityplusonemath.wordpress.com/2017/08/04/godels-incompleteness-theorems/
https://infinityplusonemath.wordpress.com/2017/09/04/how-godel-proved-maths-inherent-limitations/

For a few decades after Godel, many mathematicians argued that the theorem may be technically accurate, but generally not relevant for any real world mathematics we would be interested in. The theorem is generally proven using diagonalization - which relies on constructing convoluted self-referencing systems that appear to be wholly disconnected from anything practical. However, since then, many real, practical examples of incompleteness have been found and even proven.

American GenX

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6543 on: November 09, 2020, 07:21:47 PM »
Will there be any possible way that pressure can be put on old Mitch to get things moving on ACA improvements or anything else?

They could have put pressure on McConnell to save the ACA and failed to do so when they had the chance.

https://prospect.org/health/pelosi-can-save-obamacare-with-a-one-line-amendment-updated/
So, basically, you think Pelosi should have threatened a government shutdown one month before the election?

So, basically, I never said anything about threats, nor did the article I linked to.   Negotiation and using leverage is common practice.

https://prospect.org/health/pelosi-can-save-obamacare-with-a-one-line-amendment-updated/

jim555

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6544 on: November 09, 2020, 08:51:54 PM »
Watch live: Supreme Court hears arguments in Affordable Care Act case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOobHQzG_U4

"Set a reminder to watch live on November 10 at 10 a.m. ET: The justices of the Supreme Court are set to hear oral arguments in a dispute between groups of red states and blue states over the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act's individual mandates. "

jim555

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6545 on: November 09, 2020, 09:38:13 PM »
In the ACA case the Plaintiffs have no standing since they are suffering no harm from a $0 penalty, the case should be dismissed.

Standing to Challenge the Individual Mandate
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/11/09/standing-to-challenge-the-individual-mandate/

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6546 on: November 10, 2020, 02:35:02 AM »
Will there be any possible way that pressure can be put on old Mitch to get things moving on ACA improvements or anything else?

They could have put pressure on McConnell to save the ACA and failed to do so when they had the chance.

https://prospect.org/health/pelosi-can-save-obamacare-with-a-one-line-amendment-updated/
So, basically, you think Pelosi should have threatened a government shutdown one month before the election?

So, basically, I never said anything about threats, nor did the article I linked to.   Negotiation and using leverage is common practice.

https://prospect.org/health/pelosi-can-save-obamacare-with-a-one-line-amendment-updated/
Do you honestly believe that Trump, Mitch McConnell and all their Republican followers would not have been filling the airwaves for the month leading up to the election with "Pelosi wants to shut down the government?".   Because if so I have a nice bridge and a further Presidential term to sell you.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6547 on: November 10, 2020, 04:41:15 AM »
With apologies to the Bard of Avon, to overturn the ACA or  not to overturn the ACA, that is the question.


Here are the criteria of stare decisis the Supreme Court weighs  when deciding if its overturn of a precedent is warranted.

Has  the rule established by the precedent  become unworkable and  inconsistently  applied resulting in uncertainty erosive of  litigants' legitimate expectations of  the rule's steady application and  a  predictable  outcome? Does the rule's uncertainty complicate and  prevent  its  immediate  application which causes the Court to consume  more time as it works to fit the rule  to the facts at issue?  Has the rule   become   doubtful and  ad hoc  such  that it vitiates the adjudicative efficiency of stare decisis?


Will overturning the precedent dash the "legitimate expectations of those who live under the law" and introduce a discontinuity contrary to the "psychological need to satisfy reasonable expectations"? Is the precedent's overturn an abruption that conflicts with “facilitating the gradual assimilation of new rules into the overarching legal framework"? Will overturning the precedent cause significant and widespread hardship?

Should the precedent be abandoned because since it  was handed down the apposite  constitutional law changed to the extent that the precedent has become a "mere survivor of obsolete constitutional thinking" or “a doctrinal anachronism discounted by society"?


Will the  Court's integrity and independence   be called into question if it overturns the precedent? "Under fire in the absence of the most compelling reason" will   "overruling [the precedent] overtax  the country’s belief in the Court’s good faith”?  Is there a "most convincing justification” that “a later decision overruling the first was anything but a surrender to political pressure"?

The Court's answers to these questions will shape the opinion it hands down no later than  June's end in 2021.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 04:52:47 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6548 on: November 10, 2020, 07:29:20 AM »
In the ACA case the Plaintiffs have no standing since they are suffering no harm from a $0 penalty, the case should be dismissed.

Standing to Challenge the Individual Mandate
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/11/09/standing-to-challenge-the-individual-mandate/

At the end of the day the supreme court justices were nominated because of their political leanings and with few exceptions voting goes along party lines.

ACA will only be saved if the law is changed to remove the individual mandate or there are at least 2 conservative supreme court justices that decide to save the law and strike down just portion of the law that is problematic.  The odds of a fix are better with Biden in the white house, but if republicans think it helps their chances in 2022 they will obstruct any attempts to save ACA.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #6549 on: November 10, 2020, 09:35:41 AM »
Here are some tidbits from this morning's oral argument:

1. “I think it’s hard for you to argue that Congress intended the entire act to fall if the mandate were struck down, when the same Congress that lowered the penalty to zero did not even try to repeal the rest of the act...I think frankly, they wanted the court to do that. But that’s not our job.” C.J. Roberts


2. “I tend to agree with you this a very straightforward case for severability under our precedents, meaning that we would excise the mandate and leave the rest of the act in place.” Kavanaugh

“It does seem fairly clear that the proper remedy would be to sever the provision...and leave the rest in place.”  Kavanaugh

3. “Because there could have been many choices between invalidating the entire ACA and just zeroing out the tax...Congress’s choice was just zero out the tax, correct?” Sotomayor

4. “In the first case, there was a strong reason to believe the individual mandate was...essential to keep the plane flying. Now the part has been taken out and the plane has not crashed...How would we explain why the individual mandate in its present form is essential to the operation of the act?” Alito
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 11:19:30 AM by John Galt incarnate! »