Author Topic: What comes after the ACA?  (Read 871527 times)

zolotiyeruki

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5150 on: December 21, 2018, 08:56:19 AM »
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The Democrats couldn't have Trump get credit for fixing healthcare.  Anything good that he can do, they have to oppose, because him getting credit hurts their chances at gaining more power.
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I'm going to call out this lie.

First of all, Republicans have controlled all branches of the federal government for nearly two years now. Second, there have been a number of issues that Democrats have attempted to work with the White House on, most recently prison reform, but also immigration reform, proposing a compromise on border security to protect Dreamers, "infrastructure", etc. Third, regarding healthcare, the only thing that Republicans have done is attempt multiple times during both the Obama and Trump presidencies to repeal part or all of the ACA. There has been no serious replacement plan proposed much less presented to either house. Fourth, the goshdarn ACA is chock full of Republican ideas and policies. It is by definition a compromise bill.

It's the Republicans who are guilty of what you accuse Democrats of doing. I mean holy shit! It's gotten to the point with Trump and most national Republicans that whenever I hear them accuse someone else of something, I just automatically assume that the accuser must be the one who's guilty.
You're neglecting a crucial point which invalidates much of what you're saying.  Republicans have a majority in the senate, yes, but not enough to overcome a Democratic filibuster.  The ACA would have been repealed LONG ago had the GOP taken a 60-seat majority.  Remember that the ACA had to get 60 votes to pass into law.

The problem Republicans see with compromise is that the compromise always seems to shift the overton window to the political left, and Democrats welch on their side of the bargain once they get what they want.  That's the perception, anyway.  For example, let's say the two sides compromise and Republicans get their wall and the Democrats get their amnesty.  Republicans fully expect that once the Democrats take control of congress, the wall will get defunded, we'll have several million newly-legalized immigrants who place a large net burden on education, law enforcement, infrastructure, and social services.  Or, the Republicans want no new regulation, the Democrats want more regulation, and the compromise is a shift to the left.  Or on gun control, the Democrats consistently push for more, but when was the last time you saw any legislation removing ineffective/pointless/onerous gun regulations?  On infrastructure, Republicans say "we can't afford to spend any more" while the Democrats want to spend more (and I say "why is the federal government paying for local roads anyway?"), and the compromise is somewhere to the Democrats' side of the status quo.

As for Republican ideas in the ACA, just because it includes some doesn't mean the law as a whole isn't a steaming pile of compost.

Luck12

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5151 on: December 21, 2018, 09:19:53 AM »
You're neglecting a crucial point which invalidates much of what you're saying.  Republicans have a majority in the senate, yes, but not enough to overcome a Democratic filibuster.  The ACA would have been repealed LONG ago had the GOP taken a 60-seat majority.  Remember that the ACA had to get 60 votes to pass into law.

Uh, they would not have had to overcome a filibuster.  Both the Better Care Reconcillation Act and the Graham-Cassidy bills would've passed using reconcilliation which requires just a majority.  And for just pure repeal/no replace same thing, only a majority was needed.   So I don't know WTF you are talking about which invalidates the rest of your inane remarks which I'm not even going to get into it's so ridiculous. 

Luck12

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5152 on: December 21, 2018, 09:26:08 AM »
I'm not complaining.  It's another benefit.  I've always had very low premiums (my share of the cost) for health insurance and medical out of pocket costs throughout my career using employer based healthcare plans.  My costs would go up quite a bit on an ACA plan.

Cognitive dissonance right here.  I know you've posted that you would wait to FIRE until after the 2018 election to see if ACA would still be in place.   Also, sure your costs would go up, but you'd also not be tied to employment the way you would be in a pre-ACA environment.  Furthermore, guessing you don't have a pre-existing condition. 

Luck12

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5153 on: December 21, 2018, 09:32:19 AM »
Both parties are bad news.  Gotta get a third party, a serious one.  Scare the beejeesuz out of all of them and then they'll fix things.

Yeah keep posting this kind of false equivalence, both sides are the same bullshit.  You do realize Democrats have several proposed bills that would expand coverage and protect those with PEC (Medicare for all, Medicare Extra, Medicare Buy In, Medicaid Buy In).   Meanwhile where are the Republican plans that would also do that eh?  Every plan of theirs reduces coverage and removes/reduces protections for people with PEC.  Not to mention the ridiculous lawsuit that invalidates PEC protections. 

But yeah, both sides are the same, they both don't care.  JFC, no wonder I think most people are idiots.   

sol

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5154 on: December 21, 2018, 09:50:10 AM »
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Democrats welch on their side of the bargain once they get what they want.

That's pretty rich considering the recent history of US republicans, led and symbolized by Donald Trump, the greatest welcher in our history.

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Republicans fully expect that once the Democrats take control of congress, the wall will get defunded, we'll have several million newly-legalized immigrants

You mean just like Republicans took control and defunded the ACA but left in place millions of dollars of corporate subsidies for insurance companies?  You're channeling Trump again, accusing democrats of doing the very thing that republicans are most recently guilty of.

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who place a large net burden on education, law enforcement, infrastructure, and social services.

Except that new immigrants pay more in taxes and economic productivity than they cost.  Our country has a net negative birth rate, we absolutely need new immigrants to keep our economy functioning.  Cutting off immigration will result in Japan-style demographic crisis.  I can't believe anyone still argues for this.

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Or, the Republicans want no new regulation, the Democrats want more regulation, and the compromise is a shift to the left.

Except republicans have been cutting (mostly environmental) regulations at an unprecedented rate, so the shift is not at ALL to the left.  There was a recent headline that says Trump's loosing of coal regulations is expected to kill an average of 1400 people per year, mostly in rural red states.  The stats on air pollution vs respiratory distress fatality rates are shockingly robust.  He's literally murdering Americans so that coal companies can profit, and you're accusing democrats of moving us left?

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Or on gun control, the Democrats consistently push for more, but when was the last time you saw any legislation removing ineffective/pointless/onerous gun regulations?

Trump signed the law allowing mentally ill people to purchase handguns.  He literally let crazy people arm themselves.

Republicans in Congress passed a law removing a state's ability to regulate concealed carry permits, making unregulated CC legal everywhere.  They called it "reciprocity" but in reality it means the most lenient gun laws in the country now apply everywhere.

Trump signed a memo allowing a "fugitive from justice" (a person with outstanding arrest warrants) to purchase firearms.  He literally made it easier for dangerous criminals to arm themselves.

Those are all just from the past two years, and they are all examples of republicans moving the country to the right on the gun control issue, despite six(?) highly publicized mass shootings over that period.  And yet you're worried about onerous gun regulations?  From over here, it looks like we're making guns easier and easier to get, and people are dying as a result.

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On infrastructure, Republicans say "we can't afford to spend any more"

Republicans are never again allowed to make any sort of budgetary argument about fiscal responsibility after the current administration ballooned spending while simultaneously cutting revenues.  The TCJA was a deficit buster, plain and simple.  At least the democrats wanted to raise taxes to pay for our current spending, instead of driving the country off of a cliff.

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As for Republican ideas in the ACA, just because it includes some doesn't mean the law as a whole isn't a steaming pile of compost.

They could fix it if they wanted to.  They have all the power now.  Where's the replacement plan?  Answer:  there isn't one, because the ACA was the republican plan to begin with. 

DreamFIRE

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5155 on: December 21, 2018, 10:40:50 AM »
I'm not complaining.  It's another benefit.  I've always had very low premiums (my share of the cost) for health insurance and medical out of pocket costs throughout my career using employer based healthcare plans.  My costs would go up quite a bit on an ACA plan.

Cognitive dissonance right here.  I know you've posted that you would wait to FIRE until after the 2018 election to see if ACA would still be in place.

Yeah, no conflict here.  My tentative FIRE date has been June 7, 2019 going back to at least May of last year, where I had posted that.  If the election had gone differently with republicans still having majorities with gains in the Senate, I would have thrown out my plans for any near term FIRE.*  McConnell said prior to the election that he would try to repeal again if he was to get the votes.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-comes-after-the-aca/msg2173493/#msg2173493

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Also, sure your costs would go up, but you'd also not be tied to employment the way you would be in a pre-ACA environment.

Yes, but I have wanted to work to this point in my career, so I'm glad I had good insurance and low rates/out-of-pocket - even lower since I didn't use it much.  Excluding low monthly premiums, I paid $0 to $30 per year out of pocket most years.  Although my costs will go up with an ACA plan, even with minimal use, I certainly prefer that to the old system for early retirees who no longer can keep their company plan (COBRA aside) and are too young for Medicare, which will also be an increase in my costs.  Just because I mention that the costs will go up, that doesn't mean I oppose ACA or Medicare  That's more to say that employer sponsored healthcare has been a good thing for me.

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Furthermore, guessing you don't have a pre-existing condition.

Nothing too serious, but even so, I have concerns about it in general and fully support the ACA and protection of pre-existing conditions, despite improvements that could be made to the law, even before the damage the republicans are inflicting on it.

* Now we have the on-going lawsuit to contend with, so it will be an even longer wait to see what develops with that.  I'm optimistic that the law will stand, but I might be delaying my FIRE for 10 months for other reasons.

DreamFIRE

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5156 on: December 21, 2018, 10:51:04 AM »
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who place a large net burden on education, law enforcement, infrastructure, and social services.

Except that new immigrants pay more in taxes and economic productivity than they cost.

I think he was talking about democrats giving amnesty to immigrants who would otherwise be illegal.  Most existing Americans don't even pay more in taxes than they cost - most are net takers, as has been posted elsewhere, so it seems pretty ridiculous to think that amnestied illegals would paying our way.  Regarding the cost of giving amnesty, there was a study done showing they would cost over $6 Trillion dollars NET over a generation.  Adjust that up in today's dollars and a more likely number of illegals given amnesty, it's probably closer to $10 TRILLION dollars NET cost.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

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Over a lifetime, the former unlawful immigrants together would receive $9.4 trillion in government benefits and services and pay $3.1 trillion in taxes. They would generate a lifetime fiscal deficit (total benefits minus total taxes) of $6.3 trillion. (All figures are in constant 2010 dollars.) This should be considered a minimum estimate. It probably understates real future costs

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5157 on: December 22, 2018, 05:26:40 AM »
Both parties are bad news.  Gotta get a third party, a serious one.  Scare the beejeesuz out of all of them and then they'll fix things.

This bothsidesism argument is simply wrong.
I only see one party that wants to ravage the social safet net, and provide tax cuts for the pampered.
If you donít think you need the social safety net / along with future improvements to it then either you have $10million or more or youíre confused about how the social safety net will cover your ass.

Bucksandreds

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5158 on: December 22, 2018, 05:55:47 AM »
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who place a large net burden on education, law enforcement, infrastructure, and social services.

Except that new immigrants pay more in taxes and economic productivity than they cost.

I think he was talking about democrats giving amnesty to immigrants who would otherwise be illegal.  Most existing Americans don't even pay more in taxes than they cost - most are net takers, as has been posted elsewhere, so it seems pretty ridiculous to think that amnestied illegals would paying our way.  Regarding the cost of giving amnesty, there was a study done showing they would cost over $6 Trillion dollars NET over a generation.  Adjust that up in today's dollars and a more likely number of illegals given amnesty, it's probably closer to $10 TRILLION dollars NET cost.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

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Over a lifetime, the former unlawful immigrants together would receive $9.4 trillion in government benefits and services and pay $3.1 trillion in taxes. They would generate a lifetime fiscal deficit (total benefits minus total taxes) of $6.3 trillion. (All figures are in constant 2010 dollars.) This should be considered a minimum estimate. It probably understates real future costs

Iím pretty liberal so this feels sick to me but donít illegals who work in this country pay into Social Security and Medicare with no chance to receive benefits? Doesnít this Ďadd to the coffers?í

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5159 on: December 22, 2018, 06:15:34 AM »
Consider the source: The Heritage Foundation.
Just the name of the organization speaks volumes about the values they care about.

Bucksandreds

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5160 on: December 22, 2018, 10:43:34 AM »
Consider the source: The Heritage Foundation.
Just the name of the organization speaks volumes about the values they care about.

It actually sounded pretty convincing and I despise conservatism. Iím not sure that people here illegally should be able to access public schools paid by tax dollars. That article insinuates that they can. I believe people here illegally should have access to basic health services and food and a roof. If they truly are a net drain on the economy then there should be a change. A wall isnít the answer but I do think maybe the Canadian points system may be a better immigration system than the one we have.

Psychstache

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5161 on: December 22, 2018, 11:02:25 AM »
Consider the source: The Heritage Foundation.
Just the name of the organization speaks volumes about the values they care about.

It actually sounded pretty convincing and I despise conservatism. Iím not sure that people here illegally should be able to access public schools paid by tax dollars.

Yes, undocumented children of undocumented parents can come to and attend public schools. What would you like to see happen instead, realistically? They are here now, what do you propose we do when they come to the school?

seattlecyclone

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5162 on: December 22, 2018, 11:09:11 AM »
Consider the source: The Heritage Foundation.
Just the name of the organization speaks volumes about the values they care about.

It actually sounded pretty convincing and I despise conservatism. Iím not sure that people here illegally should be able to access public schools paid by tax dollars.

Yes, undocumented children of undocumented parents can come to and attend public schools. What would you like to see happen instead, realistically? They are here now, what do you propose we do when they come to the school?

I know! Let's have them grow up illiterate! Punish the kids for their parents' crimes. That will surely Make America Great Again.

DreamFIRE

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5163 on: December 22, 2018, 11:43:18 AM »
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who place a large net burden on education, law enforcement, infrastructure, and social services.

Except that new immigrants pay more in taxes and economic productivity than they cost.

I think he was talking about democrats giving amnesty to immigrants who would otherwise be illegal.  Most existing Americans don't even pay more in taxes than they cost - most are net takers, as has been posted elsewhere, so it seems pretty ridiculous to think that amnestied illegals would paying our way.  Regarding the cost of giving amnesty, there was a study done showing they would cost over $6 Trillion dollars NET over a generation.  Adjust that up in today's dollars and a more likely number of illegals given amnesty, it's probably closer to $10 TRILLION dollars NET cost.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

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Over a lifetime, the former unlawful immigrants together would receive $9.4 trillion in government benefits and services and pay $3.1 trillion in taxes. They would generate a lifetime fiscal deficit (total benefits minus total taxes) of $6.3 trillion. (All figures are in constant 2010 dollars.) This should be considered a minimum estimate. It probably understates real future costs

Iím pretty liberal so this feels sick to me but donít illegals who work in this country pay into Social Security and Medicare with no chance to receive benefits? Doesnít this Ďadd to the coffers?í

Some work for cash and don't pay any taxes at all.  And some may pay small amounts into SS and Medicare, but previous amnesty bills would have allowed for these amnestied illegals to collect SS benefits after paying in for a short time.  And in any event, even if they don't get a direct SS check, you can be sure they will be supported by us Americans, one way or another.  They won't be left on the street to die, and not enough of them are being deported.

An effective wall isn't the full answer, it's only one piece of the pie.  We still need workplace verification systems with heavy fines for violations and stepping up deportation efforts.

The number of illegals tends to get downplayed in the media, and I believe the cost to Americans is actually far more than the $10 TRILLION estimate mentioned earlier.

Bucksandreds

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5164 on: December 22, 2018, 12:06:37 PM »
Consider the source: The Heritage Foundation.
Just the name of the organization speaks volumes about the values they care about.

It actually sounded pretty convincing and I despise conservatism. Iím not sure that people here illegally should be able to access public schools paid by tax dollars.

Yes, undocumented children of undocumented parents can come to and attend public schools. What would you like to see happen instead, realistically? They are here now, what do you propose we do when they come to the school?

I know! Let's have them grow up illiterate! Punish the kids for their parents' crimes. That will surely Make America Great Again.

I would say that they should have to pay at least a reasonable portion of it. Could base it off of income. Iím a Hillary voter, GOP despiser but how is it fair to let people entering the country illegally, benefit off a system that they broke the law entering into? Iím all for immigration and I donít care if they give Ďamnestyí to millions of people here illegally. Iím just not in favor of their law breaking costing law abiding tax payers $billions per year. That is not a conservative nor cruel opinion.

Bucksandreds

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5165 on: December 22, 2018, 12:11:33 PM »
Consider the source: The Heritage Foundation.
Just the name of the organization speaks volumes about the values they care about.

It actually sounded pretty convincing and I despise conservatism. Iím not sure that people here illegally should be able to access public schools paid by tax dollars.

Yes, undocumented children of undocumented parents can come to and attend public schools. What would you like to see happen instead, realistically? They are here now, what do you propose we do when they come to the school?

I would say that if we arenít deporting the whole family to require a financial contribution from the family for the services. I cant move to Spain and benefit off of their universal health plan even if I immigrate legally, unless I have paid into their system for years. There is nothing cruel about not losing $billions in taxpayer money paying for people who are not legally in your country. Again, I believe every human is entitled to Food, shelter and basic medical. Every American is entitled to much more in America but we arenít talking about Americans here.

seattlecyclone

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5166 on: December 22, 2018, 12:14:49 PM »
Consider the source: The Heritage Foundation.
Just the name of the organization speaks volumes about the values they care about.

It actually sounded pretty convincing and I despise conservatism. Iím not sure that people here illegally should be able to access public schools paid by tax dollars.

Yes, undocumented children of undocumented parents can come to and attend public schools. What would you like to see happen instead, realistically? They are here now, what do you propose we do when they come to the school?

I know! Let's have them grow up illiterate! Punish the kids for their parents' crimes. That will surely Make America Great Again.

I would say that they should have to pay at least a reasonable portion of it. Could base it off of income. Iím a Hillary voter, GOP despiser but how is it fair to let people entering the country illegally, benefit off a system that they broke the law entering into? Iím all for immigration and I donít care if they give Ďamnestyí to millions of people here illegally. Iím just not in favor of their law breaking costing law abiding tax payers $billions per year. That is not a conservative nor cruel opinion.

The kids did not choose to come to the US illegally. That was a decision the parents made on their behalf. Any system where you require undocumented parents to voluntarily pay tuition in order to send their kids to public school will result in some large fraction of those parents not paying because they simply can't afford it. That punishes the kids, and society as a whole for having a less-educated populace.

Furthermore, much of the funding for public schools in our country comes from local property taxes. The county tax man doesn't care whether you have your papers or not. They'll tax you just the same either way, and seize your house if you don't pay. These folks already are paying the taxes for the schools they send their kids to.

Psychstache

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5167 on: December 22, 2018, 12:20:16 PM »
Consider the source: The Heritage Foundation.
Just the name of the organization speaks volumes about the values they care about.

It actually sounded pretty convincing and I despise conservatism. I’m not sure that people here illegally should be able to access public schools paid by tax dollars.

Yes, undocumented children of undocumented parents can come to and attend public schools. What would you like to see happen instead, realistically? They are here now, what do you propose we do when they come to the school?

I would say that if we aren’t deporting the whole family to require a financial contribution from the family for the services. I cant move to Spain and benefit off of their universal health plan even if I immigrate legally, unless I have paid into their system for years. There is nothing cruel about not losing $billions in taxpayer money paying for people who are not legally in your country. Again, I believe every human is entitled to Food, shelter and basic medical. Every American is entitled to much more in America but we aren’t talking about Americans here.

I don't believe I referred to you or anyone else as cruel.

What if the family doesn't have the ability to pay? What if the undocumented child is living here with relatives, such as an aunt and uncle, who are here legally and paying taxes?

At least in my state, the vast majority of public school funding comes from local property taxes (last year I was in my districts revenue and finance committee, so I am painfully aware of how our funding system breaks out). If undocumented families are living here, they are contributing to that tax base that pays for the schools. Is that not sufficient to utilize these services?

Edit: spelling/autocorrect errors.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 12:22:19 PM by Psychstache »

maizeman

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5168 on: December 22, 2018, 12:27:31 PM »
I would say that they should have to pay at least a reasonable portion of it. Could base it off of income. Iím a Hillary voter, GOP despiser but how is it fair to let people entering the country illegally, benefit off a system that they broke the law entering into? Iím all for immigration and I donít care if they give Ďamnestyí to millions of people here illegally. Iím just not in favor of their law breaking costing law abiding tax payers $billions per year. That is not a conservative nor cruel opinion.

This is a fascinating post in that it illustrates more effectively than I've ever managed to put into words how much of politics in the USA is about tribal affiliation.

Defining words like conservative is always difficult, but by conservative you mean consistent with the stated positions of the republican party and inconsistent with the stated positions of the democratic party, then yes, it is indeed a conservative position. I don't mean that to be an offensive statement, but based on the worldview so effectively conveyed in these few short sentences, I imagine you will indeed take that classification as an insult.

FWIW, I agree with Psychstache and seattlecyclone when they point out that even people in the country illegally are still paying the taxes that go to support the public school systems, so the whole freeloader argument is a bit of red herring to begin with. But, out of curiosity, how would your proposed policy handle cases where the parents are not in the country legally, but the children were born here (and hence just as much American citizens as you or I)?

Bucksandreds

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5169 on: December 22, 2018, 02:04:25 PM »
Did any of you actually read the Heritage article that I am referring to? It just illustrates, based off education level, the typical household contribution to government per household. High school dropouts and high school graduates without college are net drains to the coffers. Why would we want to allow people who broke our laws to continue to drain our finances? Why would any of you want to pay for those who wouldnít wait and try to enter Ďthe right way?í Why do we continue to allow the small percentage of the people from poverty stricken countries that are willing to break the law to gain unfair economic advantage? Arenít the children of poverty stricken countries of parents that play by the rules worthy of a decent education? Why would anyone be happy paying $10,000s of thousands of our hard earned tax money per family to illegal immigrants. Wouldnít this money be more fairly spent by investing in the poverty stricken country in the first place and not on law breakers?

maizeman

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5170 on: December 22, 2018, 02:34:15 PM »
Did any of you actually read the Heritage article that I am referring to? It just illustrates, based off education level, the typical household contribution to government per household. High school dropouts and high school graduates without college are net drains to the coffers.

Yes, this is essentially an argument against a progressive taxation system (and the same used to justify the Bush and Trump tax cuts which primarily went primarily to the top 1% of earners). In a progressive tax system, particularly in a country like ours with vast income disparities, most people aren't going to be paying their "fair share" of government expenditures. For example, at the federal level, any household not paying at least $30k/year in federal taxes (~$120,000 for a single person, counting income and payroll tax, much more for a married couple) isn't paying their "fair share."

Should we deny public education to the children of citizen parents without at least an associates or bachelors degree? After all, they are also a net drain on the public purse.

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Why would we want to allow people who broke our laws to continue to drain our finances?

The children in question either haven't broken our laws (because they were born here, and hence US citizens, or brought here as small children, and hence not legally culpable).

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Why do we continue to allow the small percentage of the people from poverty stricken countries that are willing to break the law to gain unfair economic advantage? Arenít the children of poverty stricken countries of parents that play by the rules worthy of a decent education? Why would anyone be happy paying $10,000s of thousands of our hard earned tax money per family to illegal immigrants. Wouldnít this money be more fairly spent by investing in the poverty stricken country in the first place and not on law breakers?

I can imagine a number of reasons, but one is intelligent self interest. If my tax dollars go to educate american citizens (regardless of whether their parents are american citizens or not) when they are children, I'm investing in making the USA a stabler and more productive country in my old age. If we fail to educate the next generation of american citizens, we'll spend our old age is a less productive, less stable, and less safe country.

Bucksandreds

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5171 on: December 22, 2018, 02:58:40 PM »
^
My argument is nothing against progressive taxation.  Of course I am a fan of progressive taxation and that money being used for the betterment of Americans and those on their way to legally becoming Americans. You are totally straw manning this conversation by suggesting anyone wouldíve in favor of not educating poor AMERICANS. I am not America first. I am not in favor of allowing people who took advantage of our laws and enforcement to gain an extra financial benefit from tax payers. You conveniently didnít address the fact that we are tacitly encouraging this behavior by giving financial incentives to the families of law breakers while their law abiding countrymen are ignored in abject poverty. Your extreme liberalism is clouding your judgement. These views you have are why some in the middle went for Trump. I guarantee you that a majority of Americans agree with my viewpoint. Guaranteed Food, shelter and basic medical to all. Besides that if youíre here and not American then Americans shouldnít be footing your bills.

DreamFIRE

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5172 on: December 22, 2018, 03:01:45 PM »
^
My argument is nothing against progressive taxation.  Of course I am a fan of progressive taxation and that money being used for the betterment of Americans and those on their way to legally becoming Americans. You are totally straw manning this conversation by suggesting anyone wouldíve in favor of not educating poor AMERICANS. I am not America first. I am not in favor of allowing people who took advantage of our laws and enforcement to gain an extra financial benefit from tax payers. You conveniently didnít address the fact that we are tacitly encouraging this behavior by giving financial incentives to the families of law breakers while their law abiding countrymen are ignored in abject poverty. Your extreme liberalism is clouding your judgement. These views you have are why some in the middle went for Trump. I guarantee you that a majority of Americans agree with my viewpoint. Guaranteed Food, shelter and basic medical to all. Besides that if youíre here and not American then Americans shouldnít be footing your bills.

^This.   Well said.

maizeman

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5173 on: December 22, 2018, 03:32:58 PM »
^
My argument is nothing against progressive taxation.  Of course I am a fan of progressive taxation and that money being used for the betterment of Americans and those on their way to legally becoming Americans.

Then you could perhaps drop the Heritage foundation line complaining about people not paying as much into the public purse as they receive back. Because a progressive tax system (and income inequality) is the reason high school dropouts and high school grads pay so much less in taxes.

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You are totally straw manning this conversation by suggesting anyone wouldíve in favor of not educating poor AMERICANS.

Above you argued that illegal immigrants pay less into the government than they receive back in services. Pointing out that the same reasoning would also lead to not educating poor americans whose parents ARE here legally isn't a straw man argument, it is pointing out the consequences of the political reasoning you are endorsing.

Quote

I am not America first.

You continue to exhibit extreme distain for the half of the country which would agree with you on this issue. It's fascinating.

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You conveniently didnít address the fact that we are tacitly encouraging this behavior by giving financial incentives to the families of law breakers while their law abiding countrymen are ignored in abject poverty.
[/quote

You've continued to avoid addressing the fact that many of the children in question (the children of illegal immigrants) are American citizens.

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Your extreme liberalism is clouding your judgement. These views you have are why some in the middle went for Trump. I guarantee you that a majority of Americans agree with my viewpoint. Guaranteed Food, shelter and basic medical to all. Besides that if youíre here and not American then Americans shouldnít be footing your bills.

Extreme liberalism, huh? It's always fascinating to see the political and religious views people project onto me on the internet.

Let's review my extremely liberal positions:

-I don't think we should punish american children for the crimes of their parents.
-I don't think public education is a government benefit (like social security), but rather an investment in a more productive and stable society in the future.

Excitingly, that last point is supported by your own data, which points out that people with more educational attainment tend to earn more money, and hence contribute more to the public purse than people with less educational attainment. If fewer kids make it through high school, we'll have more people who cannot pay their fair share, and fewer who can, which will mean my old age will be spent with bigger deficits (more inflation) or reduced government services, neither of which I find personally appealing.

From back in the great recession we have excellent evidence that education doesn't just help individuals, everyone in a city benefits when the proportion of less educated people decreases: https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/teach-your-neighbors-well/

Bucksandreds

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5174 on: December 22, 2018, 03:59:23 PM »
^ being in favor of progressive taxation does not automatically equate to being in favor of tax based redistribution to illegal immigrants. Either you donít understand what a straw man argument is or youíre trolling. Easily more than half the country agrees with me. Only 32% of Americans think that illegal immigrants should be able to attend public school. My opinion is not a conservative opinion. It is a 2 to 1 American opinion. A person against the wall and in favor of some form of amnesty is not conservative in their immigration views, they are actually left of center based off of public opinion polls. Itís obvious that the argument youíre making is EXTREMELY liberal and not in line with the VAST majority of Americanís opinion, whether Republic, Democrat or in the middle. If you want the last word to feel like a winner then Iíll let you have it. The facts are the facts.

http://m.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/immigration/most_voters_oppose_public_schooling_tuition_breaks_driver_s_licenses_for_illegal_immigrants

maizeman

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5175 on: December 22, 2018, 04:17:07 PM »
^ being in favor of progressive taxation does not automatically equate to being in favor of tax based redistribution to illegal immigrants.

Arguing that people whose parents aren't in the country legally shouldn't be allowed to attend public schools BECAUSE their parents didn't contribute enough in taxes to cover their drain on the public purse is different from simply arguing you want to prevent them from attending public schools to punish them for their parents crimes.

The former argument assumes that people who pay less than their per capita share of public expenditures are less worthy of aid, and is indeed incompatible with an argument for progressive taxation.

The latter is perfectly compatible with a belief in a progressive taxation system, although I have some other ethical problems with it.

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Easily more than half the country agrees with me. Only 32% of Americans think that illegal immigrants should be able to attend public school. My opinion is not a conservative opinion. It is a 2 to 1 American opinion. A person against the wall and in favor of some form of amnesty is not conservative in their immigration views, they are actually left of center based off of public opinion polls.

You REALLY have the the political tribalism bug bad, don't you? I'll reiterate that I don't think conservative (or GOP or republican) is a dirty word.

But if you wanted to find a political candidate who would support your views on how american children should be treated if their parents were illegal immigrants, do you think you'd have better luck voting for a politician with a D or an R after their name?

Quote
Itís obvious that the argument youíre making is EXTREMELY liberal and not in line with the VAST majority of Americanís opinion, whether Republic, Democrat or in the middle. If you want the last word to feel like a winner then Iíll let you have it. The facts are the facts.

Which facts are we talking about here? If we're discussing the facts about what impact living in a country with a more or less educated populace has on quality of life, economic returns, and net government revenues, I don't think those facts are subject to overturn by public opinion.

If the facts you're arguing about are how liberal or conservative I am as a person, why does it matter?

Edit: I realize this got a fair bit off topic from the subject of the thread, but if anyone feels my conduct did constitute trolling rather than disagreeing and explaining why, please do let me know.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 04:22:23 PM by maizeman »

pecunia

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5176 on: December 23, 2018, 12:49:59 PM »
Eliminate illegal immigration?    Hmmmm?  Why do they come here?  Oh yes, they have hard times and are looking for work.  I can't be too hard on any one trying to make an honest living.

Except - They broke into the country one way or another.

Just start doling out stiff punishments for anyone who hires illegal aliens.  They will stop hiring such folks.  The folks will have no work, no way to buy food or shelter and would most likely accept a ride home.

We had an engineer who didn't have his work visa renewed for one reason or another.  He went home.

DreamFIRE

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5177 on: December 23, 2018, 02:25:29 PM »
Eliminate illegal immigration?    Hmmmm?  Why do they come here?  Oh yes, they have hard times and are looking for work.  I can't be too hard on any one trying to make an honest living.

That would describe one reason that some of them come here.  Not everyone has honest good intentions.  Some just want to take advantage of our system paid for by U.S. taxpayers.  There are a lot of negative effects that many people aren't aware of, such as all of the healthcare facilities put out of business by illegal aliens, going back to the ACA/healthcare discussion of this thread.  Then you have other illegals that invade the U.S. simply to do harm to Americans, for example:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/an-ms-13-gang-member-and-a-convicted-sex-offender-arrested-at-southern-border

For everyone of these evil people that they catch, there are many more that slip through.

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Except - They broke into the country one way or another.

Just start doling out stiff punishments for anyone who hires illegal aliens.  They will stop hiring such folks.  The folks will have no work, no way to buy food or shelter and would most likely accept a ride home.

We had an engineer who didn't have his work visa renewed for one reason or another.  He went home.

Indeed, there has to be a multi-faceted approach, and previous generations up to now have failed miserably.  There should be no jobs, no handouts, no access to U.S. taxpayer funded services, etc. for illegals.  I would much rather we pay a little in prevention to keep these people from sneaking into the country than a LOT more later when we are supporting them and suffering the violence, crime, disease, loss of healthcare facilities, etc. over the long term.

Cassie

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5178 on: December 23, 2018, 09:02:15 PM »
In general illegal immigrants have contributed more than what they have taken. They work hard and donít qualify for benefits. They do jobs that citizens wonít do. 

pecunia

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5179 on: December 23, 2018, 09:39:23 PM »
In general illegal immigrants have contributed more than what they have taken. They work hard and donít qualify for benefits. They do jobs that citizens wonít do. 

Ever watch, "Dirty Jobs"?

People will do those jobs.

Pay people decent pay and they will do them.   What jobs won't Americans do?  Pick fruit?  My Uncle used to do that many years ago before the onset of cheap imported labor.  Don't you think people here did these agricultural jobs prior to World War 2?  Do the Amish hire Mexicans to build their barns?  Won't Americans do construction work?  Tell that to the AFL-CIO.

The right wing has done a good job of brainwashing the people of the USA.  If someone on top gets a break in the labor rate from immigrant workers, they'll concoct a wonderful story of how it is good for everyone.  And, .... if they are doing an honest day's labor of hard work, they deserve benefits.  Seems like the guys doing the hiring are getting a good deal.

Random clip from the web:

"In 2013 Americaís federal government allowed farmers to fill 99,000 jobs with temporary foreign workers, most of whom came from Mexico. This year it is on track to let in about 240,000. A Republican-sponsored bill would raise the limit to 450,000 a year and allow them to stay for up to three years."

Now Bucky don't you think it's all about making money for some big Agri-businesses?

It doesn't have to be the way they tell you it is.

Hell - If we hadn't had the Civil War, many of us would accept propaganda today telling us how good slavery is.


DreamFIRE

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5180 on: December 23, 2018, 10:52:26 PM »
In general illegal immigrants have contributed more than what they have taken. They work hard and donít qualify for benefits. They do jobs that citizens wonít do.

That's definitely not true.  Most Americans don't even pay more in taxes than they cost - most are net takers, as has been posted elsewhere, so it seems pretty ridiculous to think that illegals would be paying more than they take.  Regarding the cost of illegals, there was a study done years ago showing they would cost over $6 Trillion dollars NET over a generation.  Adjust that up in today's dollars and a more likely number of illegals given amnesty, it's probably closer to $10 TRILLION dollars NET cost.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

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Over a lifetime, the former unlawful immigrants together would receive $9.4 trillion in government benefits and services and pay $3.1 trillion in taxes. They would generate a lifetime fiscal deficit (total benefits minus total taxes) of $6.3 trillion. (All figures are in constant 2010 dollars.) This should be considered a minimum estimate. It probably understates real future costs

The part about Americans not working those jobs also isn't true but rather a commonly repeated myth from the pro-open borders advocates.  Americans will work those jobs for a legal wage, which is what happens when the workplaces hiring illegals are raided and the illegals deported.  Illegal  aliens bring down the prevailing wages in the industries they've most infiltrated, cause healthcare facilities to shutdown, and a host of other negative effects on society as well.

Bucksandreds

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5181 on: December 24, 2018, 04:30:19 AM »
^although Iím very pro immigrant, I have to agree that removing anyone from an economy that does a job very cheaply would raise the wages on those jobs. It would also raise inflation but only because the lower classes would have more spending money, which is a good thing. Iíd like for the US to look at the points based immigration system used in Canada. We could still allow a number of disadvantaged each year while allowing the best and brightest.

Exflyboy

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5182 on: December 24, 2018, 05:07:31 PM »
^although Iím very pro immigrant, I have to agree that removing anyone from an economy that does a job very cheaply would raise the wages on those jobs. It would also raise inflation but only because the lower classes would have more spending money, which is a good thing. Iíd like for the US to look at the points based immigration system used in Canada. We could still allow a number of disadvantaged each year while allowing the best and brightest.

WHAT? Actually look at what another country does better than the USA?... There is no other country that does ANYTHING better then the USA!* What kind of Socialism do you speak?

*Apart from provide universal HC, have 200mph passenger trains, the first space rockets and cruise missiles, steam engines, industrial revolution etc. etc.

ysette9

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5183 on: December 26, 2018, 04:41:04 PM »
I can’t speak for other parts of the country, but in California we have labor shortages in agriculture which is primarily staffed by foreign-born workers, many of whom are here illegally. The labor crunch is raising wages but that still hasn’t tempted American workers to the ranks.

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/

“But Silverado, the farm labor contracting company in Napa, has never had a white, American-born person take an entry-level gig, even after the company increased hourly wages to $4 above the minimum. And Silverado is far from unique.

U.S. workers filled just 2% of a sample of farm labor vacancies advertised in 1996, according to a report published by the Labor Department’s office of inspector general. “I don’t think anybody would dispute that that’s roughly the way it is now” as well, says Philip Martin, an economist at UC Davis and one of the country’s leading experts on agriculture.”

pmac

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5184 on: December 26, 2018, 05:13:37 PM »
Napa could raise the wage to $50/hour, you would get Americans coming to work.

It's just that Opus One likes their profits....

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5185 on: December 26, 2018, 08:00:32 PM »
Back in the day, my ancestors owned their own farms and they did just fine. Then big agriculture came in and mechanized everything to drive down prices. Everybody loved the cheap food and got fat on it, while the family farms went bankrupt and folks had to work as laborers on the big agri farms for much reduced wages. Then the wages became so low that folks couldn't live on it anymore and the big agri farms hired foreign laborers who were willing to work for nearly nothing and sleep twenty to a room in fire hazard flophouses. No wonder my relatives hate illegal immigrants so much. They are a symptom, not a cause of the problem, though.

pecunia

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5186 on: December 27, 2018, 10:09:00 AM »
Slight Sidestep Here,......

What Comes After the ACA?    Well, Bubba, if you are lucky enough to live long enough,.......It's American Medicare.

I'm getting closer every year.  I used to think the problem would be to "Bridge the Gap" of years to that Socialized Medical Program for Old Folks.  Today, I listened to a radio program put on by Ralph Nadar.  He wrote a book before most of us were born called, "Unsafe at Any Speed."  It dealt with the dangers of the air cooled Corvair car.  He's been running around ever since trying to be a do gooder.

He did a radio program last week with a medical cost expert.  It was about Medicare.  It appears that the health insurance companies are getting their hooks into this successful social program and,......

It's an hour, but some parts are interesting.

https://ralphnaderradiohour.com/medicare-advantage-no-advantage/

Roadrunner53

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5187 on: December 27, 2018, 09:05:25 PM »
Just beware, Medicare is a spider web of costs.

Medicare Part A (Hospital costs, free if you have worked 10 years) If you have to go to the hospital, there is a $1,300+ deductible. You could pay this several times a year because there is a certain time frame you are covered for.
Medicare Part B $135.50 a month (when getting treatment or tests, Medicare pay 80%, you pay 20%)
Medicare Part D (prescriptions $35-$72 a month) costs vary, deductibles vary. The less  you pay the higher the deductible. The higher you pay, no deductible. Not all drugs are covered and sometimes you have to pay $99 per 3 months for a semi generic drug.

Medicare only pays for 80% of recognized costs, you are responsible for the rest. You need to consider a medigap plan. Not all plans cover the 20%. My Hub and I both have Plan F and it pays 100% of what is left over but we each pay just umder $500 a month on top of Part B and Part D.

The cost is high on a limited income but we are pretty much covered if something catastrophic happens.

A lot of people think Medicare is a free program...LOL, it is not! Medicare Part A the hospital portion is free. However, good luck ever getting admitted to a hospital. They will do everything in their power to NOT admit you. They will put you under 'observation' status which means you are really not in the hospital. If you are sick enough to need to go to a rehab Medicare will not pay it unless you have been 'admitted' to the hospital for 3 nights stay.

DreamFIRE

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5188 on: December 27, 2018, 09:23:04 PM »
Just beware, Medicare is a spider web of costs.

Medicare Part A (Hospital costs, free if you have worked 10 years) If you have to go to the hospital, there is a $1,300+ deductible. You could pay this several times a year because there is a certain time frame you are covered for.
Medicare Part B $135.50 a month (when getting treatment or tests, Medicare pay 80%, you pay 20%)
Medicare Part D (prescriptions $35-$72 a month) costs vary, deductibles vary. The less  you pay the higher the deductible. The higher you pay, no deductible. Not all drugs are covered and sometimes you have to pay $99 per 3 months for a semi generic drug.

Medicare only pays for 80% of recognized costs, you are responsible for the rest. You need to consider a medigap plan. Not all plans cover the 20%. My Hub and I both have Plan F and it pays 100% of what is left over but we each pay just umder $500 a month on top of Part B and Part D.

The cost is high on a limited income but we are pretty much covered if something catastrophic happens.

A lot of people think Medicare is a free program...LOL, it is not! Medicare Part A the hospital portion is free. However, good luck ever getting admitted to a hospital. They will do everything in their power to NOT admit you. They will put you under 'observation' status which means you are really not in the hospital. If you are sick enough to need to go to a rehab Medicare will not pay it unless you have been 'admitted' to the hospital for 3 nights stay.

Good info.  Yeah, I've noticed that most people think Medicare is free, and that Medicare for all will mean everyone gets free healthcare.  LOL  Medicare, to be fully covered as you need to be, is very expensive.  My retirement budget long term actually increases when I hit Medicare age.

Roadrunner53

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5189 on: December 28, 2018, 04:13:56 AM »
Just beware, Medicare is a spider web of costs.

Medicare Part A (Hospital costs, free if you have worked 10 years) If you have to go to the hospital, there is a $1,300+ deductible. You could pay this several times a year because there is a certain time frame you are covered for.
Medicare Part B $135.50 a month (when getting treatment or tests, Medicare pay 80%, you pay 20%)
Medicare Part D (prescriptions $35-$72 a month) costs vary, deductibles vary. The less  you pay the higher the deductible. The higher you pay, no deductible. Not all drugs are covered and sometimes you have to pay $99 per 3 months for a semi generic drug.

Medicare only pays for 80% of recognized costs, you are responsible for the rest. You need to consider a medigap plan. Not all plans cover the 20%. My Hub and I both have Plan F and it pays 100% of what is left over but we each pay just umder $500 a month on top of Part B and Part D.

The cost is high on a limited income but we are pretty much covered if something catastrophic happens.

A lot of people think Medicare is a free program...LOL, it is not! Medicare Part A the hospital portion is free. However, good luck ever getting admitted to a hospital. They will do everything in their power to NOT admit you. They will put you under 'observation' status which means you are really not in the hospital. If you are sick enough to need to go to a rehab Medicare will not pay it unless you have been 'admitted' to the hospital for 3 nights stay.

Good info.  Yeah, I've noticed that most people think Medicare is free, and that Medicare for all will mean everyone gets free healthcare.  LOL  Medicare, to be fully covered as you need to be, is very expensive.  My retirement budget long term actually increases when I hit Medicare age.

My examples do not cover Medicare Part C (Advantage Plan) which is a HMO type insurance and all the parts are rolled into one program. It is a bit regimented from what I know you have to go to only doctors in the plan. I have seen the premiums and some are very low. I am skeptical of the low prices because somehow, someway they are going to get you. You have to pay deductibles for doctor appointments and other stuff I guess. I am not familiar with it enough to explain it or say it is good or bad. All I know is when it comes to healthcare there is no free ride.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5190 on: December 28, 2018, 05:06:37 AM »
Just beware, Medicare is a spider web of costs.

Medicare Part A (Hospital costs, free if you have worked 10 years) If you have to go to the hospital, there is a $1,300+ deductible. You could pay this several times a year because there is a certain time frame you are covered for.
Medicare Part B $135.50 a month (when getting treatment or tests, Medicare pay 80%, you pay 20%)
Medicare Part D (prescriptions $35-$72 a month) costs vary, deductibles vary. The less  you pay the higher the deductible. The higher you pay, no deductible. Not all drugs are covered and sometimes you have to pay $99 per 3 months for a semi generic drug.

Medicare only pays for 80% of recognized costs, you are responsible for the rest. You need to consider a medigap plan. Not all plans cover the 20%. My Hub and I both have Plan F and it pays 100% of what is left over but we each pay just umder $500 a month on top of Part B and Part D.

The cost is high on a limited income but we are pretty much covered if something catastrophic happens.

A lot of people think Medicare is a free program...LOL, it is not! Medicare Part A the hospital portion is free. However, good luck ever getting admitted to a hospital. They will do everything in their power to NOT admit you. They will put you under 'observation' status which means you are really not in the hospital. If you are sick enough to need to go to a rehab Medicare will not pay it unless you have been 'admitted' to the hospital for 3 nights stay.

Good info.  Yeah, I've noticed that most people think Medicare is free, and that Medicare for all will mean everyone gets free healthcare.  LOL  Medicare, to be fully covered as you need to be, is very expensive.  My retirement budget long term actually increases when I hit Medicare age.

My health insurance costs also will increase upon reaching Medicare eligibility, but that is only because I'm currently getting a pretty hefty premium tax credit on my ACA plan.  For those of us with low "income" who are on ACA plans, Medicare for all indeed would be more expensive.  But for most Americans who pay through the nose for shitty employer-provided insurance plans with huge out-of-pocket limits, I'm betting Medicare would be a big improvement.

But of course no one who is pushing Medicare for all is actually talking about the specifics of how it would all work.  Would costs be the same for the expanded population as they are for the current over 65 population?  Would higher costs be allowed for older people, as is currently the case for ACA plans?  Would low income people be subsidized more than high income people?  Answering these questions is critical for coming up with something that might actually work.

DaMa

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5191 on: December 28, 2018, 06:05:37 AM »
Just beware, Medicare is a spider web of costs.

Medicare Part A (Hospital costs, free if you have worked 10 years) If you have to go to the hospital, there is a $1,300+ deductible. You could pay this several times a year because there is a certain time frame you are covered for.
Medicare Part B $135.50 a month (when getting treatment or tests, Medicare pay 80%, you pay 20%)
Medicare Part D (prescriptions $35-$72 a month) costs vary, deductibles vary. The less  you pay the higher the deductible. The higher you pay, no deductible. Not all drugs are covered and sometimes you have to pay $99 per 3 months for a semi generic drug.

Medicare only pays for 80% of recognized costs, you are responsible for the rest. You need to consider a medigap plan. Not all plans cover the 20%. My Hub and I both have Plan F and it pays 100% of what is left over but we each pay just umder $500 a month on top of Part B and Part D.

The cost is high on a limited income but we are pretty much covered if something catastrophic happens.

A lot of people think Medicare is a free program...LOL, it is not! Medicare Part A the hospital portion is free. However, good luck ever getting admitted to a hospital. They will do everything in their power to NOT admit you. They will put you under 'observation' status which means you are really not in the hospital. If you are sick enough to need to go to a rehab Medicare will not pay it unless you have been 'admitted' to the hospital for 3 nights stay.

Good info.  Yeah, I've noticed that most people think Medicare is free, and that Medicare for all will mean everyone gets free healthcare.  LOL  Medicare, to be fully covered as you need to be, is very expensive.  My retirement budget long term actually increases when I hit Medicare age.

My examples do not cover Medicare Part C (Advantage Plan) which is a HMO type insurance and all the parts are rolled into one program. It is a bit regimented from what I know you have to go to only doctors in the plan. I have seen the premiums and some are very low. I am skeptical of the low prices because somehow, someway they are going to get you. You have to pay deductibles for doctor appointments and other stuff I guess. I am not familiar with it enough to explain it or say it is good or bad. All I know is when it comes to healthcare there is no free ride.

Another thing about Medicare that most people don't know -- there is no out-of-pocket maximum.  The ACA plans and Medicare Advantage plans are required to have one, but not Medicare.

Also, there are many good Medicare Advantage plans.  Michigan has PPO plans that include almost every doctor in state and out-of-state coverage and $0 cost plans that cover more than Medicare and include basic Part D. (Which basically proves that the government is paying too much to the insurance companies that offer these plans.) 

The primary advantage to Medicare for All is the cost control exerted by a single payer. 

Roadrunner53

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5192 on: December 28, 2018, 06:21:24 AM »
I have not heard how Medicare for All would work. It makes for a good campaign statement but I hope those who campaign on it have studied it and know what they are talking about. Not like the blow hard we have in there now who had his base chanting at every rally on who was going to pay for the wall. Then the blow hard said he was going to give us better and cheaper ACA. That was a joke and a half. Paul Ryan and McConnell wanted to kill it with pitch forks. How did it go from better and cheaper to trying to destroy it any way they could. From what I have read, people want and need ACA. It was supposed to be fixed, tweaked, and fine tuned. My Hub and I were on ACA from 2015 till 2018. It bridged us from ACA to Medicare. It was way more expensive than we liked but we did qualify for subsidies. We were glad to have it and the Hub had major surgery while on it.  We didn't have to pay a ton out of pocket either. I am thankful for ACA and just hope the Dems can fix it for those coming down the pike and need it.

Classical_Liberal

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5193 on: December 28, 2018, 09:38:21 PM »
However, good luck ever getting admitted to a hospital. They will do everything in their power to NOT admit you. They will put you under 'observation' status which means you are really not in the hospital. If you are sick enough to need to go to a rehab Medicare will not pay it unless you have been 'admitted' to the hospital for 3 nights stay.

Just an FYI

It is Medicare rules that determines the necessity and status of hospital admissions.   Not the hospital, or the providers.  Admissions are reviewed by disinterested third parties (this is yet another layer of bureaucratic cost) and if a provider admitted someone under an inpatient status, who should not have been admitted, it will be reversed.   So this is not the case of hospitals or doctors trying to make more money, it's medicare rules. 

Roadrunner53

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5194 on: December 29, 2018, 05:01:09 AM »
However, good luck ever getting admitted to a hospital. They will do everything in their power to NOT admit you. They will put you under 'observation' status which means you are really not in the hospital. If you are sick enough to need to go to a rehab Medicare will not pay it unless you have been 'admitted' to the hospital for 3 nights stay.

Just an FYI

It is Medicare rules that determines the necessity and status of hospital admissions.   Not the hospital, or the providers.  Admissions are reviewed by disinterested third parties (this is yet another layer of bureaucratic cost) and if a provider admitted someone under an inpatient status, who should not have been admitted, it will be reversed.   So this is not the case of hospitals or doctors trying to make more money, it's medicare rules.

Yes, I know it is Medicare rules and everyone in the hospital shakes in their boots to abide by their rules. Years back my Mom was sick and needed a test that could not be performed till Monday and she was in over the weekend. She is in a lot of pain and no one knew what was wrong with her but the Medicare dictator kicked her out of the hospital. They were so afraid she would be there for the 3 overnight rule that would allow her to go to physical rehab if necessary. So they sent an old woman home, very sick and in pain. Not easy to see someone you love like that and you cannot do anything.

Classical_Liberal

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5195 on: December 29, 2018, 03:48:05 PM »
Years back my Mom was sick and needed a test that could not be performed till Monday and she was in over the weekend. She is in a lot of pain and no one knew what was wrong with her but the Medicare dictator kicked her out of the hospital. They were so afraid she would be there for the 3 overnight rule that would allow her to go to physical rehab if necessary. So they sent an old woman home, very sick and in pain. Not easy to see someone you love like that and you cannot do anything.

This is horrible! You are preaching to the choir. Believe or not most healthcare workers actually care about their patients. Just so that others understand the system, here's what would have happened.

Even if the provider admitted her in this circumstance (for say pain control) and did so as an inpatient, it would have been reversed to observation status later (upon review).  Although your mom would have been treated for pain, the 3 day rule would never have applied because she would have been switched to observation status.  That rule only applies to inpatient admissions. Later, she would have been billed for the entire hospital stay (minus any supplements), because it would not have fallen under Part A coverage.

This type of stuff is why I'm hesitant to support a federalized healthcare.  Although there needs to be dramatic change, I'm not sure letting a ridiculous bureaucracy run the show is the best alternative.  I don't have an answer, but I know the best answer would probably come from real world providers.  Definitely not ex-government bureaucrat's, who are clueless to reality and have nothing constructive to add.



Roadrunner53

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5196 on: December 29, 2018, 10:17:54 PM »
Years back my Mom was sick and needed a test that could not be performed till Monday and she was in over the weekend. She is in a lot of pain and no one knew what was wrong with her but the Medicare dictator kicked her out of the hospital. They were so afraid she would be there for the 3 overnight rule that would allow her to go to physical rehab if necessary. So they sent an old woman home, very sick and in pain. Not easy to see someone you love like that and you cannot do anything.

This is horrible! You are preaching to the choir. Believe or not most healthcare workers actually care about their patients. Just so that others understand the system, here's what would have happened.

Even if the provider admitted her in this circumstance (for say pain control) and did so as an inpatient, it would have been reversed to observation status later (upon review).  Although your mom would have been treated for pain, the 3 day rule would never have applied because she would have been switched to observation status.  That rule only applies to inpatient admissions. Later, she would have been billed for the entire hospital stay (minus any supplements), because it would not have fallen under Part A coverage.

This type of stuff is why I'm hesitant to support a federalized healthcare.  Although there needs to be dramatic change, I'm not sure letting a ridiculous bureaucracy run the show is the best alternative.  I don't have an answer, but I know the best answer would probably come from real world providers.  Definitely not ex-government bureaucrat's, who are clueless to reality and have nothing constructive to add.

Yes, you explained this correctly. This is exactly what happened. It is outrageous a person who is so sick can't stay in the hospital to be taken care of. I was furious and felt so helpless on how to help my Mom. The social worker, not sure if that is the correct title for the woman who told us she had to go was a bit snide and seemed to care less. She basically said rules are rules. OMG, I could have bashed her in the head. Are you kidding? This is my Mom and she is sick and she needs medical attention. Nope it was like we don't give a crap about her. We just shuffle paper to satisfy Medicare. People who want Medicare for all better hope they know what they are getting into. I just recently went onto Medicare and hope I never have to use the hospital portion. Won't matter I guess, because they will just dump you out on the curb like yesterdays trash.

EnjoyIt

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5197 on: December 29, 2018, 10:58:36 PM »
^This is how Medicare decreases cost. They add expensive bureacracy to decrease medical care. How much more bullshit can they add to the process before no one can afford medical care in this country?

pecunia

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5198 on: December 30, 2018, 08:22:12 AM »
I don't know about medicare rules.  Any big organization has some bad rules.  I pose health insurance companies as one example.  It doesn't seem too hard to find examples of health insurance companies having some bad bureaucratic rules as you peruse the pages of these posts.  A government run program will be no exception.  It's run by people.

Medicare is very popular.  That popularity has to be based on reasons.  The reasons are based on results.

My personal reason is that it saved my mom's life about 20 - 25 years ago.  Mom is gone now, but she never would have been able to afford the heart operation she needed if not for medicare.  An old woman did not have to fight an insurance company.  I feel medicare gave my mom at least another 20 good years of life.

I just don't like these health insurance companies edging in to medicare to "privatize" it so they can sneak off with a piece of the pie.  From my long view, it just looks like an unnecessary layer is being wedged into the program.  I see nothing wrong with people being able to augment their medicare with private insurance, but the underlying program should be sound without these folks and their "help."  I get a bad feeling.  These are the same companies that have been commented on for 100+ pages herein.

Roadrunner53

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #5199 on: December 30, 2018, 08:54:46 AM »
I think as far as surgery and approved treatments, Medicare is good. It is when they can't diagnose the problem quickly and a hospital stay for a person who isn't actually dying, they want that person out. They are very afraid the person will meet the requirements of the three night stay which will allow nursing care for rehab in a nursing facility. The time limit is 100 days but the person has to show continued improvement in the facility or they will cut that off too! During that stay in the rehab, they monitor the patient and report back to Medicare on I assume a weekly basis. Then they meet with the patient and relative to discuss their stay and improvement or no improvement. Once no improvement is established, you need to decide what to do with the patient. If they need nursing care you have to decide to bring them home, put them in the nursing home. Medicare doesn't cover anything after that except doctors, treatments, surgeries. Nursing home care is 100% at the cost of the patient. 5 years ago my Mom was in a nursing home in rehab. She didn't improve and we were facing what to do. The cost per month back then was $12,000 per month. She passed before we had to decide what to do.