What are your leanFIRE, FIRE, and fatFIRE numbers?

[Retire-Canada]

Lean = ~$750K CAD = ~$554K USD
Regular = $1.15M CAD = ~$845K USD
Fat = $2.3M CAD = ~$1.7M USD

[Turtle]

I'm a household of 1 now, but the numbers wouldn't have been much different with 2.  In fact, they would have been slightly lower due to my late spouse's pension and lower tax rates.

[Greystache]

My wife and I retired in 2015 with a paid off house and no debt. Our fire number was 1.6 million. Our annual budget was 60K and we have a 100K fund for infrequent, large expenditures like replacing a vehicle or a new roof.

[GilesMM]

Hi

My take is :

Lean Fire: Passive Income covers Basic Expenses (with no or little Buffer )

FIRE: 100% extra Passive Income on top of Lean Fire

FAT FIRE: another 100% extra on top of  FIRE

I like this definition @Ozlady

Mine is a variant of that - if the amount needed to cover mortgage payments was subtracted from my numbers above, what I stated would roughly fit your guidelines there.

If I understand the math, if lean=4%, FIRE=8% and Fat=12% SWR?

Dammit gyles, you have everything assbackwards and it's confusing everyone :) . For Ozleys definition.  Lean equals 4% swr, i.e basic expenses are $40k and you have $1m to cover it, no cushion. FIRE equals 2% swr because 4% of your stache is double what your basic expenses are. I.e 40k basic expenses and $2m stache. Fat fire is $3m stache with 40k basic expenses.

For the record, this is a dumb way to answer the OPs question when they specifically provided a dollar amount as the example, which would avoid all of this back and forth.

Mine is lean fire $1.4m, Fire $1.9m, Fat fire anything more than that.

I struggle with stash dollar numbers since they don't relate to spending.  If I say I'm going to FIRE on $1 million that doesn't tell you very much.  If I spend $100,000 per year, that is a 10% SWR but you don't know that unless I tell you.  Everyone has a different spending budget, so all that really matters is the range of SWRs.

[LongtimeLurker]

And just like every other thread of it's kind we will argue semantics till the next OP finds a new way of framing the same question

But it's a fascinating survey!

	LeanFIRE	FIRE	FatFIRE
MIN	$   750,000	$1,000,000	$1,700,000
MED	$1,000,000	$1,550,000	$2,375,000
MAX	$1,500,000	$5,000,000	$10,000,000

Everyone who provided a range was plotted/analyzed at the midpoint of their range.

Weirdly, of the people who reported their family size, there is only a weak positive correlation between family size and LeanFIRE number, and none at all for FIRE numbers. Maybe bigger families are more likely to live in LCOL areas or vice-versa? Or maybe one person each at family sizes 5 and 6 is too few to mean anything. ;) Sample size is so small for FatFIRE numbers it's not worth pretending it means something.

The scatter plot has some "jitter" added for data visibility. All the points around a family size of 2 are 2, they're just spread out a little so they aren't all overlapping.

If you already said your number without including family size, let me know and I'll add you to the chart. :)

Family of 3, but in theory at time of FIRE it should be down to 2.

[spartana]

We are FI but not RE, cashflow  covers all expenses, however, we are shooting for Fat FIRE simply to have even more money. Someone mentioned they didn’t want to fat FIRE cause it’s just wasting money. Another perspective is thinking about how you can help others with that extra money. Achieving Fat FIRE allows us to provide more help to the younger relatives with college tuition, donating to our fave charities, tipping even more, and hopefully helping with creating an exhibit at our fave zoo. This doesn’t take much effort due to compound interest, plus I appreciate the meaningful work I do 10-12hrs/wk.

Family of 4

Lean FIRE -1.5 million
FIRE $3 million
Fat FIRE $5 million

I think for a lot of us who chose to retire early and on a smaller stash it was less about wasting money by having a higher spending amount we didn't need, and more about wasting your time (life) which is in limited quantities.  Being free and available to help others more can often be as valuable as giving money to help others. Plus the added benefit having more free time for yourself.

[spartana]

Hi

My take is :

Lean Fire: Passive Income covers Basic Expenses (with no or little Buffer )

FIRE: 100% extra Passive Income on top of Lean Fire

FAT FIRE: another 100% extra on top of  FIRE

I like this definition @Ozlady

Mine is a variant of that - if the amount needed to cover mortgage payments was subtracted from my numbers above, what I stated would roughly fit your guidelines there.

If I understand the math, if lean=4%, FIRE=8% and Fat=12% SWR?

Dammit gyles, you have everything assbackwards and it's confusing everyone :) . For Ozleys definition.  Lean equals 4% swr, i.e basic expenses are $40k and you have $1m to cover it, no cushion. FIRE equals 2% swr because 4% of your stache is double what your basic expenses are. I.e 40k basic expenses and $2m stache. Fat fire is $3m stache with 40k basic expenses.

For the record, this is a dumb way to answer the OPs question when they specifically provided a dollar amount as the example, which would avoid all of this back and forth.

Mine is lean fire $1.4m, Fire $1.9m, Fat fire anything more than that.

I struggle with stash dollar numbers since they don't relate to spending.  If I say I'm going to FIRE on $1 million that doesn't tell you very much.  If I spend $100,000 per year, that is a 10% SWR but you don't know that unless I tell you.  Everyone has a different spending budget, so all that really matters is the range of SWRs.

I assumed most were roughly talking about the 4% - ish rule. I do a bucket method so don't use that formula myself but for these kind of questions I just figure out what my annual spending in each category would be and apply the 4 % rule to that.

[Villanelle]

Sure stash dollars don't always relate directly to spending, but I think it all ties together.  Whether you plan to spend $30k on a $1m stash or $50k on $1m, to me you are kind of buying the same overall things, just categorized differently.  The first person gets more security, due to the lower WR, and the second gets more daily spent, but they are paying for it with additional risk. So I think there's still something valuable to be gleaned from lumping them together as 2 people retiring on $1m. It's a different question than what is your annual budget for lean, regular and fat FIRE, but I still see it as a valuable data point.  (Just as I'd see the question about annual spending as valuable, even though it fails to capture the planned WR.)

[Metalcat]

Sure stash dollars don't always relate directly to spending, but I think it all ties together.  Whether you plan to spend $30k on a $1m stash or $50k on $1m, to me you are kind of buying the same overall things, just categorized differently.  The first person gets more security, due to the lower WR, and the second gets more daily spent, but they are paying for it with additional risk. So I think there's still something valuable to be gleaned from lumping them together as 2 people retiring on $1m. It's a different question than what is your annual budget for lean, regular and fat FIRE, but I still see it as a valuable data point.  (Just as I'd see the question about annual spending as valuable, even though it fails to capture the planned WR.)

Yeah, we don't have a planned spend amount, so it would be meaningless to even offer it.

I have no intention (or ability?) of spending a predictable amount every year. It will depend on where we're living, it will depend on health expenses, it will depend on so many life factors.

Our target amounts are more like what should be able to cover our bases by being more than enough for most lifestyles we know we enjoy, be able to weather big, lumpy health expenses without compromising quality of life, and leave plenty for late in life care.

But it's all just hand wavy, rough estimates and a shrug.

[Loren Ver]

Household- two adults.  1 house with a mortgage and student loans
We are currently FIREd

leanFIRE: $ ~920,000  (the rough goal)
FIRE: $~850,000*(we went rogue and decided the market would eventually catch up with us)
fatFIRE: $ >  Everything from here on out because we were right

*This number is approximate- we never actually recorded it as it was a Q1 number and I only keep records for end of year.

[Fru-Gal]

Cash flow is key. The way I figured it is asking, “what is my nut?” So the basic stuff we HAVE to pay, house/utilities/food/insurance/etc, was $36k and that was less than 4%. Now I’m not tracking our FIRE spend very well and I know we spend much more than that. But the point is we only NEED that much.

Figuring out how to get your nut down by controlling home (low rent/mortgage payment) and transportation costs (one or no car, bikes/transit) is the best way to do that.

I also have a built-in firewall in that I can’t access all savings yet (without a few extra steps such as Roth or 72t), so even if I blew it all too early the bulk of my FIRE funds would be safe.

[Retire-Canada]

I struggle with stash dollar numbers since they don't relate to spending.  If I say I'm going to FIRE on $1 million that doesn't tell you very much.  If I spend $100,000 per year, that is a 10% SWR but you don't know that unless I tell you.  Everyone has a different spending budget, so all that really matters is the range of SWRs.

FIRE budget = ~$40K CAD spend + ~$6K taxes.

Lean = ~$750K CAD = ~$554K USD
Regular = $1.15M CAD = ~$845K USD
Fat = $2.3M CAD = ~$1.7M USD

[TheAnonOne]

Realistically to FIRE I'd like 80k a year to spend.

NW: 2.5mm
$$: 2.0mm

[Tasse]

Realistically to FIRE I'd like 80k a year to spend.

NW: 2.5mm
$$: 2.0mm

Is 2M your liquid NW goal? Not sure what you mean by $$.

[mistymoney]

just guestimating

1.6 lean
1.8 regular
2.0 chunky

maybe?

pipe dreams would be:

2.5 chubby
3.0 fat

But I'm getting too old to wait around much more, so am looking to FIRE based on timeline rather than bottom line right now. Guess I'm trading in FIRE for FAFO - and the find out will be if I end up destitute.....

[TheAnonOne]

Realistically to FIRE I'd like 80k a year to spend.

NW: 2.5mm
$$: 2.0mm

Is 2M your liquid NW goal? Not sure what you mean by $$.

Yeah, currently at 1.75mm NW and 1.35 liquid.

[lhamo]

Cash flow is key. The way I figured it is asking, “what is my nut?” So the basic stuff we HAVE to pay, house/utilities/food/insurance/etc, was $36k and that was less than 4%. Now I’m not tracking our FIRE spend very well and I know we spend much more than that. But the point is we only NEED that much.

Figuring out how to get your nut down by controlling home (low rent/mortgage payment) and transportation costs (one or no car, bikes/transit) is the best way to do that.

I also have a built-in firewall in that I can’t access all savings yet (without a few extra steps such as Roth or 72t), so even if I blew it all too early the bulk of my FIRE funds would be safe.

This has pretty much been my approach, too.

My FIRE journey was atypical, as it involved the sale of our "lottery ticket in the sky" (Beijing condo, which gave us enough cash to buy a very nice house in a HCOL area + have a huge cash cushion to live off of for several years.  We sold that house last summer, which generated enough that each of us were able to buy our own smaller places as we finalized the paperwork on our divorce.  But mine needs some fairly major work, and my liquid cash cushion was not enough to cover the costs, so I was VERY nervous about my finances/cash flow last October when markets were down.  I did still have over 100k more or less liquid, plus another 200-300k ish in non-retirement investments, plus 800kish in retirement accounts, of which nearly 200k was contribution/seasoned conversion amounts I could tap in a pinch.  But I've got 4 more years until age 59.5 so not having a bigger cash cushion to ensure I can ride this stretch out smoothly REALLY amped up my anxiety.  So I started selling off some of my FZROX last November to lock in some LTCG in a tax-efficient way, and bump up my cash position.  In hindsight, I could have waited and had a bigger payout, but the reduction in anxiety (which was really affecting both my physical and mental health) was worth the tradeoff. 

Technically, with the money the house will require for this and future renovations I am over a 4% SWR which I guess SHOULD make me nervous, but it doesn't.  I can always sell the house and downsize if I am in a financial pinch.  I got the house for a good price, and the renovations will significantly increase its value so that I would probably at least net out if I had to sell in the next 2-3 years.  I don't anticipate that happening -- want this to be the house they roll me out of in 30-40+ years (and the renovations are making it truly age in place-able).  But just to be safe I am planning to minimize my spending and may do some part-time work or start a small business to generate some extra income to pad the coffers at bit.  So right now I'd say I'm somewhere in the LeanFire-Regular Fire range.  If I had to give hard numbers, I guess they would be:

LeanFIRE:  1 mill + paid off house

40k/year SWR = I have enough for all essentials and the occasional splurge on fancy meals, a concert or play a few times a year, and some very low cost travel (mostly road trips to see friends/family).  At this level I benefit from almost no taxable income and low or no health insurance costs

Regular FIRE: 1.5 mill + paid off house

60k/year = I can do more splurg-y stuff without having to think about it too much. Probably would do a lot more treating and hosting friends/family, more fun entertainment stuff/travel and spend more on my house/yard (mostly stuff like adding solar power, improving grey water systems, splurge on food-producing trees and shrubs that I can't easily find from free sources).  Taxes and health insurance take a bigger chunk

Fat FIRE:  2.0 mill + paid off house

80k/year => Spend even more on the "more" categories.  Do some big bucket-list type travel every 2-3 years.  Add an EV charger to the house and replace my current hybrid car.  Taxes and health insurance are also much higher

I do still enjoy the process of finding things low-cost or free, and repurposing what I can.  I don't feel pressure to buy stuff for appearances.  So I'm pretty darn happy in the Lean-Regular FIRE territory. 

OK, time to get moving and go plant some asparagus crowns I got for free at the community garden!  I'm putting them in my food bank beds so that others will benefit from them once they mature.

[Tasse]

Update!

	LeanFIRE	FIRE	FatFIRE
MIN	$   554,000	$   845,000	$1,700,000
MED	$1,075,000	$1,550,000	$2,250,000
MAX	$1,600,000	$5,000,000	$10,000,000

The LeanFIRE numbers continue to be fairly tightly distributed, while the FIRE and FatFIRE numbers have more skew and longer tails. Basically, it sounds like people here roughly agree on the minimum amount one should FIRE on (more than $500k, less than $2M!) but diverge in what we think is desirable/ideal to FIRE on. I also find it mildly pleasing that the LeanFIRE and FatFIRE numbers (barely!) don't overlap at all.

The relationship to family size remains positive for LeanFIRE numbers. If we believe the linear fit, this community thinks you need about $937k + $65k per family member for LeanFIRE. (The trendlines shown are fit to the "jittered" data, but the equations are from the real fits.)

The fit for normal FIRE vs family size is also barely positive, but it's such a poor fit I wouldn't read into it; I'm only showing it for comparison to the previous chart. It's actually worse than the fit to the FatFIRE numbers, which I haven't shown because you can see with your eyeballs how non-linear the data are.

[Purple_Crayon]

Two adults, no kids, house paid off.

3-year average annual spending all-in (including non-recurring expenses -- literally every penny spent): $30,446

We're shooting for FatFIRE (targeting Dec 2026)

Lean = $600K USD
Regular = $800K USD
Fat = $1.35M USD

[TempusFugit]

When I first joined the forums 6 years ago, I thought $1.2M would be my FIRE number.  I was such a child back then : )

Now I have four five columns in my spreadsheet for different FIRE goals.

Bare Bones: $1M  This is a bit of hyperbole but it's where I would definitely feel pinched.  Very little slack in this budget.  It's really there just as a confidence measure that if things really melt down I can still live a pretty normal life for a lot less than I am planning for.

Lean: $1.2M   This opens things up a little more for some basic travel and other fun stuff but still not the stress free financial life I'd like.

Comfortable:   $1.67M Basic FIRE with almost my current lifestyle, minus things like paying for my lawn service. I'd have enough money that I don't get stressed about a $1000 home repair bill.

FI / Current Spend:  $2M   This is extrapolated from my annual spending review with the addition of full price health insurance. It also includes the P&I of my mortgage, so it is a little over what my long term spending would be.  This is what I consider my true FI number, meaning that I wouldn't have to change anything (financially) if I lost my job tomorrow and never worked for pay again.

Fat: $2.2M   This isn't much different than my FI / current spend but it adds some more travel money and more fun spending. 

So I guess I'm pretty average in terms of the poll.

For those who have not yet approached your FIRE numbers, if you're years away, just know that as you do get close you WILL find yourself moving the goal posts! 

Almost everyone feels the same way with $1M as they felt with $500K or $250K and will probably feel the same if they hit $2M.  Your emotions about money and security are not as tightly correlated with your portfolio balance as you think.  It's super easy to keep thinking "If I had just a little more, then I'd feel safe." 

[cannotWAIT]

Almost everyone feels the same way with $1M as they felt with $500K or $250K and will probably feel the same if they hit $2M.  Your emotions about money and security are not as tightly correlated with your portfolio balance as you think.  It's super easy to keep thinking "If I had just a little more, then I'd feel safe."

So true. My therapist: What would it take for you to feel safe? Me: Uhhh . . .

Anyway, here are my numbers, based on my actual historical spending for a one-person household with a paid-off house in a LCOL area, and using the basic expenses & cheap hobbies/add some travel and a few luxuries/splash out paradigm.

LeanFIRE: $500K (but this level of spending never felt like a safe assumption for the long run)
FIRE: $800K
FatFIRE: $1 million

[Ron Scott]

I honestly have no clue how much we'll end up with because we both love our work and have zero interest in retiring

About as perfect a position as could be wished for…

[Tasse]

For those who have not yet approached your FIRE numbers, if you're years away, just know that as you do get close you WILL find yourself moving the goal posts! 

Almost everyone feels the same way with $1M as they felt with $500K or $250K and will probably feel the same if they hit $2M.  Your emotions about money and security are not as tightly correlated with your portfolio balance as you think.  It's super easy to keep thinking "If I had just a little more, then I'd feel safe."

Idk, I'm finding that I have felt way more comfortable with risk as we approach our LeanFI number, and we're not even there yet. But maybe it's not actually the portfolio giving me confidence: DH recently quit his job, so it may be that I've just discovered that nothing explodes when you defy societal expectations.

I feel way different at almost $1M than I did at $500k, but it's hard to know if that's due to the NW or due to all the other life changes that happened in the intervening years.

[obstinate]

FatFIRE: I feel like, with a paid off house, $5M would be a pretty luxurious FatFIRE number.

We currently spend like $190k/y (after tax, sans mortgage) in an HCOL location. But that includes 50+k of "paying for convenience" expenses (after school, summer camp, housekeeping) that would not be needed if we retired. And on top of that, I guess my general expenses would fall by an additional 20-30% just because of the difference in cost of goods and services in MCOL vs. HCOL locations.

So, way I see it, $5M + a paid off house would give (depending on exact asset mix) a higher level of spending than our already luxurious lifestyle.

[Fru-Gal]

nothing explodes when you defy societal expectations

Yep. Also you must know yourself. I am comfortable with a higher level of risk because I know I won’t panic sell. I prefer to preserve my status as a time billionaire for as long as possible.

And even if it doesn’t mean what it used to, $1M is a pretty magical accomplishment.

[Metalcat]

I honestly have no clue how much we'll end up with because we both love our work and have zero interest in retiring

About as perfect a position as could be wished for…

It is for us, but it's not always realistic for people to find work that is deeply satisfying and also flexible enough to live their best life.

Some people's favourite things to do are easily commodifiable without ruining the activity, but others aren't. For example, I love to write, but I have zero interest in publishing. I love to teach, but I have zero interest in the bureaucratic bullshit.

And honestly, the main reason I was willing to do 2.5 years of grad school to even do this was because I needed my femurs broken and I knew it would be years of recovery, so grad school gave me something to do while stuck in bed for a few years. Not sure I would have done it if I was able bodied and could have put my time and energy into hiking the coasts of Newfoundland instead.

Paradoxically, being disabled, which is why I had to retire in the first place, is largely what motivates me to keep working because the same disability that eliminates 99% of job options also eliminates 99% of unpaid activities as well. Using my brain to solve complex problems became the most enjoyable use of my time and energy.

But if I had a body that worked??? I would have a hell of a lot more options and I can't say that sitting in front of a computer all day a few days a week would have been my best option.

[wenchsenior]

I must say this thread has been enlightening. I've assumed all along that we were outliers (high end) in our targets (being risk averse and supporting a third adult person in functionally a separate household). And it turns out we are much more typical than I expected, which makes me think my impression of risk and expected costs of living are correct, or else we all tend to be unusually risk-averse in this forum.

[Metalcat]

I must say this thread has been enlightening. I've assumed all along that we were outliers (high end) in our targets (being risk averse and supporting a third adult person in functionally a separate household). And it turns out we are much more typical than I expected, which makes me think my impression of risk and expected costs of living are correct, or else we all tend to be unusually risk-averse in this forum.

Risk averse and largely high income

[wageslave23]

I must say this thread has been enlightening. I've assumed all along that we were outliers (high end) in our targets (being risk averse and supporting a third adult person in functionally a separate household). And it turns out we are much more typical than I expected, which makes me think my impression of risk and expected costs of living are correct, or else we all tend to be unusually risk-averse in this forum.

We are talking about retiring decades before most people retire. So erring on the side of caution makes sense. If I was nearing 70 and not sure if I had enough money, I'd be much more likely to say f it, I'm not going to work until the day I die.

Or an analogy would be you are in the indy 500 and leading the next closest person by 20 laps with 40 laps to go. Might as well play it safe and shoot to finish 19 laps ahead instead of risking a crash in order to finish 21 laps ahead.

[TempusFugit]

I must say this thread has been enlightening. I've assumed all along that we were outliers (high end) in our targets (being risk averse and supporting a third adult person in functionally a separate household). And it turns out we are much more typical than I expected, which makes me think my impression of risk and expected costs of living are correct, or else we all tend to be unusually risk-averse in this forum.

Is it unusual if we’re all pretty similar in this regard?   

Since I’m approaching the “no more financial excuses to not retire” phase of my journey, I have started using a more feature rich retirement planning tool that accounts for taxes, lumpy expenses, etc.  It also accounts for different spending patterns as we age.   

It’s been a bit eye opening to see how much difference it makes when one accounts for Social Security (reduced benefit because its running out of money)  and mortgage payoffs (10 years for me), and in my case a small pension.  While my planned initial spending (based on the projections) is actually above 4% (~4.5) that is only tru for the first few years and then it drops to near 2% for quite a while during what would still be my “Go Go” spending years.   It has allowed me to project higher spending than I had anticipated when I was just using the rule of thumb 4% guideline. 

I mention this just to encourage anyone nearing retirement to start taking a more nuanced look at your cashflow needs. 

[ca-rn]

My initial goal was 1 mil for FIRE.  Didn't consider lean, mid or fatFIRE, just that once I hit 1 mil I could quit work.

Once I hit 1 mil, realized that gave me FI but not necessarily ability to FIRE and that I've a lot to learn about taxes, having to buy health care, accessing pre/post tax accounts, Rule of 55 and other considerations.

My made up FIRE numbers are based on having to pay full cost of healthcare insurance/dental ($18k/year for 10 yrs= $180k rounded up to $200k).   Single filer w/rental income (about 40k) with plans to move 401k funds into RothIRA will take me out of any ACA credits.  Plan to leave a good chunk for when I get old and need care :(

Rental income may possibly drop to half or less in the future (may decide to use for personal use instead).  Have a separate bucket ($100k) to cover unexpected Housing costs.  I live car free in a large city w/decent public transit in a fairly walkable neighborhood. 

Lean Annual budget-
Housing (insurance/property tax, utilities, maint) budget is 18k
Living 12k
Health insurance/dental 18k
tax???
Total 48k

Feel like adding an additional 12k for "living" and 12k for travel would take me to FIRE/FatFIRE territory.

LeanFIRE- 1.5 mil
FIRE- 1.75 mil
FatFIRE- 2.25 mil

[Tasse]

I must say this thread has been enlightening. I've assumed all along that we were outliers (high end) in our targets (being risk averse and supporting a third adult person in functionally a separate household). And it turns out we are much more typical than I expected, which makes me think my impression of risk and expected costs of living are correct, or else we all tend to be unusually risk-averse in this forum.

I had similar experience from the opposite end. We've met some people IRL through MMM meetups (in the MMM Mecca of north Denver, no less), and in that crowd we seem to be somewhat low spenders. I was starting to wonder if what I considered fairly mainstream FI was actually pretty lean. This is why I was so interested in aggregating the responses from here, but it turns out in this crowd we're roughly average.

[spartana]

I must say this thread has been enlightening. I've assumed all along that we were outliers (high end) in our targets (being risk averse and supporting a third adult person in functionally a separate household). And it turns out we are much more typical than I expected, which makes me think my impression of risk and expected costs of living are correct, or else we all tend to be unusually risk-averse in this forum.

Risk averse and largely high income

and high spending in FIRE. Most here seem to plan a higher spending, even without a mortgage or rent expense, than the average working person in the US earns.

Average Salary in the U.S. in 2024
"Feb 22, 2024 — According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, the average U.S. annual salary as of 2023 was $59,384."

But I realize that even here I'm a low spending outlier who FIREd on a smaller (but not lean by my standards) stash then most do. 

[wageslave23]

I must say this thread has been enlightening. I've assumed all along that we were outliers (high end) in our targets (being risk averse and supporting a third adult person in functionally a separate household). And it turns out we are much more typical than I expected, which makes me think my impression of risk and expected costs of living are correct, or else we all tend to be unusually risk-averse in this forum.

Risk averse and largely high income

and high spending in FIRE. Most here seem to plan a higher spending, even without a mortgage or rent expense, than the average working person in the US earns.

Average Salary in the U.S. in 2024
"Feb 22, 2024 — According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, the average U.S. annual salary as of 2023 was $59,384."

But I realize that even here I'm a low spending outlier who FIREd on a smaller (but not lean by my standards) stash then most do.

It's important to differentiate household income and individual income. Median household income is $75k and most people live paycheck to paycheck and pay little to no taxes, so their spending is probably also pretty close to $75k per year.

[McStache]

These numbers are quite hypothetical as I don't feel settled enough in my budget/long term needs to say anything solidly about what number I will actually RE at, however I do feel lean FI as I have some serious FU money to walk away from paid work semi-indefinitely. Current net worth is sitting at 1m, but I'd say I've been feeling that for 200k now.

Single, non-homeowner household.

Lean FIRE: 800k
FIRE: 1.3m
Fat FIRE: 2.5m

[Retire-Canada]

and high spending in FIRE. Most here seem to plan a higher spending, even without a mortgage or rent expense, than the average working person in the US earns.

Average Salary in the U.S. in 2024
"Feb 22, 2024 — According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, the average U.S. annual salary as of 2023 was $59,384."

But I realize that even here I'm a low spending outlier who FIREd on a smaller (but not lean by my standards) stash then most do.

FAT FIRE to me means spending the same as Lean or Regular FIRE, but just with a lower WR%. At least so far as my portfolio grows I'm not feeling any urge to spend more on my day to day COL. I'm not going to suddenly eat every meal at a fancy restaurant or fly business class just because I can afford it. And the stuff that does matter to me isn't expensive and I already have as much of it as I want.

Not that I am a frugal role model. OTOH I guess the FIRE budget I choose way back in 2014 or so has proven robust and sustainable even with a mortgage.

[weebs]

Our numbers:

Lean FIRE: 1.0m
FIRE:          1.5m
Fat FIRE:    4.0m

We're DINKs living in a HCOL area with a paid off house worth ~900K.  Both of us will get a pension and SS.  The pensions aren't huge, but the combined amount plus SS is enough to make me comfortable with a > 4% WR when we finally retire.

[spartana]

I must say this thread has been enlightening. I've assumed all along that we were outliers (high end) in our targets (being risk averse and supporting a third adult person in functionally a separate household). And it turns out we are much more typical than I expected, which makes me think my impression of risk and expected costs of living are correct, or else we all tend to be unusually risk-averse in this forum.

Risk averse and largely high income

and high spending in FIRE. Most here seem to plan a higher spending, even without a mortgage or rent expense, than the average working person in the US earns.

Average Salary in the U.S. in 2024
"Feb 22, 2024 — According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, the average U.S. annual salary as of 2023 was $59,384."

But I realize that even here I'm a low spending outlier who FIREd on a smaller (but not lean by my standards) stash then most do.

It's important to differentiate household income and individual income. Median household income is $75k and most people live paycheck to paycheck and pay little to no taxes, so their spending is probably also pretty close to $75k per year.

True but even then the average household spending likely includes some things the average FIREee no longer has. A FIREd person generally is no longer saving a portion of their income. They no longer are commuting and having transportation expenses. Or having work-related expenses. May have launched your kids already. Or those with young kids no longer have childcare expenses. They may have a paid off home and have time to do many DIY stuff at reduced costs. Etc. So, besides medical insurance expenses for FIREees in the US, most of a FIREees passive income is being spent on fun stuff compared to the average working person living on the same amount.  My FIRE spending is about 50% less then expenses were while working and that was mainly because of my savings rate, my commute expenses, etc.

[spartana]

and high spending in FIRE. Most here seem to plan a higher spending, even without a mortgage or rent expense, than the average working person in the US earns.

Average Salary in the U.S. in 2024
"Feb 22, 2024 — According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, the average U.S. annual salary as of 2023 was $59,384."

But I realize that even here I'm a low spending outlier who FIREd on a smaller (but not lean by my standards) stash then most do.

FAT FIRE to me means spending the same as Lean or Regular FIRE, but just with a lower WR%. At least so far as my portfolio grows I'm not feeling any urge to spend more on my day to day COL. I'm not going to suddenly eat every meal at a fancy restaurant or fly business class just because I can afford it. And the stuff that does matter to me isn't expensive and I already have as much of it as I want.

Not that I am a frugal role model. OTOH I guess the FIRE budget I choose way back in 2014 or so has proven robust and sustainable even with a mortgage.

I consider this Fat FIRE also (the ability the spend far more then your basic needs and "normal" fun stuff) and consider myself a high NW but low spending/low expenses person. I also consider myself chubby FIRE not lean FIRE or even regular FIRE because I CAN spend more.

But for the purposes of this thread I assumed everyone was talking about how big of a stash they wanted or needed for their planned expenses at a 4 % WR in each category.

[tooqk4u22]

and high spending in FIRE. Most here seem to plan a higher spending, even without a mortgage or rent expense, than the average working person in the US earns.

Average Salary in the U.S. in 2024
"Feb 22, 2024 — According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, the average U.S. annual salary as of 2023 was $59,384."

But I realize that even here I'm a low spending outlier who FIREd on a smaller (but not lean by my standards) stash then most do.

FAT FIRE to me means spending the same as Lean or Regular FIRE, but just with a lower WR%. At least so far as my portfolio grows I'm not feeling any urge to spend more on my day to day COL. I'm not going to suddenly eat every meal at a fancy restaurant or fly business class just because I can afford it. And the stuff that does matter to me isn't expensive and I already have as much of it as I want.

Not that I am a frugal role model. OTOH I guess the FIRE budget I choose way back in 2014 or so has proven robust and sustainable even with a mortgage.

I feel this way too - its WR% of psychology - sure the math works at 4% but there is the "What if this time is different?" feelings that may permeate but as the WR goes lower its an investment in psychological comforts (and obviously tangible extra margin of safety). 


For me I feel like there is a correlation to median HH income for ones area as that generally dictates (or heavily influences) cost of of living for most expenses.  My levels are for a family (no kids and levels are lower but I am not there and haven't thought about what would feel right) and assume no payroll taxes (SSI/Medi) or 401k or other need to save further, and a paid off house.  There area other costs that go away and some new ones that arise too.


Lean FIRE:     4% SWR at 75% of median HH income for your area (dependent on ACA, travel, big purchases and other discretionary stuff is limited or needs to be saved for over time (i.e. a new HVAC, auto, roof or international trip etc. ).  Budget matters - not really meeting fully desired lifestyle but pretty good enough, will have to balance priorities. 

FIRE:            3.5% SWR at 100% of median HH income for your area.  (Can cover a large expense in any given year along with some travel funds with international/expensive trip every few years, and full price health insurance should ACA go away or become means tested). Basically budget fits your full desired lifestyle including covering those surprise expenses that happen to arise.

Fat FIRE:      3.0% SWR at 120% of median HH Income for your area.  (All of above and more able to help out family/others or things that fall into bucket list / dream like scenarios - for me an example would be taking extended family on a trip).   Budget covers it all without too much worry and stash is fairly bulletproof (3%WR could become a 4% WR in a market downturn and you wouldn't have to cut back).   It doesn't mean you spend more, but you could.


There is no science to it and just a feeling on my part and normalizes for income differentials across geographies.  Living in a way that is way below the area generally doesn't feel great.

[Metalcat]

and high spending in FIRE. Most here seem to plan a higher spending, even without a mortgage or rent expense, than the average working person in the US earns.

Average Salary in the U.S. in 2024
"Feb 22, 2024 — According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, the average U.S. annual salary as of 2023 was $59,384."

But I realize that even here I'm a low spending outlier who FIREd on a smaller (but not lean by my standards) stash then most do.

FAT FIRE to me means spending the same as Lean or Regular FIRE, but just with a lower WR%. At least so far as my portfolio grows I'm not feeling any urge to spend more on my day to day COL. I'm not going to suddenly eat every meal at a fancy restaurant or fly business class just because I can afford it. And the stuff that does matter to me isn't expensive and I already have as much of it as I want.

Not that I am a frugal role model. OTOH I guess the FIRE budget I choose way back in 2014 or so has proven robust and sustainable even with a mortgage.

I consider this Fat FIRE also (the ability the spend far more then your basic needs and "normal" fun stuff) and consider myself a high NW but low spending/low expenses person. I also consider myself chubby FIRE not lean FIRE or even regular FIRE because I CAN spend more.

But for the purposes of this thread I assumed everyone was talking about how big of a stash they wanted or needed for their planned expenses at a 4 % WR in each category.

Mine is based on no such facts, lol. Our spending is too unpredictable thanks to health shit.

It's more like our LeanFI number is kind of what we need to cover our lifestyle *choices* as they are presently and the rest is for *holy shit, I didn't necessarily expect that...* life changes, y'know, like body parts refusing to work.

Unlike others, I'm not at all concerned about what the markets will do because what my body can and has done to fuck up my spending is far, far more impactful for me.

[spartana]

^^^yeah unpredictable expenses are...er..hard to predict! That may be the reason people here work years longer just to off set that unpredictable risk. Or why Fat FIRE numbers are so high.  They don't spend more on shiny things they just want greater safety. Maybe a better question instead of stash size is, barring expensive or unlikely catastrophic events, how much do you plan to spend once FIREd and and what's your planned WR?

[stealthwealth]

Lean:  $2M
FIRE:  $2.5M
Fat:    $3M

Currently between Lean and FIRE, and our house is $50k from paid off but we plan to put about $150k into it the next couple years to move it from 1975 to something more timeless.  Wife really likes her newish university support job and pulls in $85k plus it has significant tuition benefits for the kids regardless of where they go.  I have stock awards that vest in less than 2 years, which combined with market gains, are fairly likely to put us at/near Fat.  Aiming for late '25 as a result. 

We usually spend $65k a year, so a lot of gravy in Fat at 4%. 

[startingout]

The Fat number means we can live almost anywhere (except, sadly, the one place in the US we'd love to be if money were no object, and where very modest houses start at about $2m, but we could go to that larger metro area if we wanted to).

@Villanelle Where is your dream place to live? Mine would be southern California, near the beach. But that's never happening for me even if I could afford it.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

The idea of FIRE has kind of morphed for me over the last decade+ since I discovered the idea. I used to be miserable at work, and the idea of FIREing was the only thing that really kept me sane. However, the last 10 years have seen a lot of changes in my life situation and personal desires, and I no longer feel like I'm just hanging on until the day I can retire.

• Ten years  ago I lived on a half acre lot in a shitty little town in south Mississippi. Now I live on 50 acres in the country, 20 minutes outside of one of the finest college towns in the South.
• Ten years ago my boss was a vindictive asshole who sat around just waiting for me to do something wrong. Now I work remotely, for a chill boss, doing work that I'm uniquely good at. I feel useful, appreciated, and not over-worked.
• Ten years ago I had two kids. Now I have four. Our world revolves around raising them into thoughtful, productive adults. If I stop working, it's not like that's going to give me much latitude to travel or live by my own schedule. I no longer see much point in not working until after our kids are all graduated from high school, which is 13 years away.

So, the bottom line is that I no longer have a FIRE number. My wife and I plan to live a pretty conventional life, as we send our kids to school, take them to soccer practice, work our normal little jobs, build our homestead, and save way more money that most people in our circumstances. When we no longer have dependent children that we have to plan our lives around, we'll pull the plug on work and then live off of whatever we've managed to accumulate. My wife will be 49 and I will be 53 when our youngest graduates from high school. By that time, my current projections suggest that we'll have a nest egg of about $1.65 million, plus a homestead worth $1 million (all of these numbers are in 2024 dollars - inflation excluded). If we have more or less, that'll be fine. I am past the point of stressing over when to pull the plug.
To answer the OPs question, though, I'll put it this way: If the sum value of our liquid investments at retirement is:

• <$1.4 million: Lean FIRE
• $1.4-2.0 million: Regular FIRE
• >2.0 million: Fat FIRE

[Metalcat]

^^^yeah unpredictable expenses are...er..hard to predict! That may be the reason people here work years longer just to off set that unpredictable risk. Or why Fat FIRE numbers are so high.  They don't spend more on shiny things they just want greater safety. Maybe a better question instead of stash size is, barring expensive or unlikely catastrophic events, how much do you plan to spend once FIREd and and what's your planned WR?

For me they aren't "unlikely" though, so I really can't answer that.

I'm actively planning for the continued and escalating outsourcing of domestic labour, trying to figure out how to improve access to healthcare, and how to maintain a very high quality of life in a body that increasingly refuses to do a lot of frugal activities.

I've always, always said that personal risk is way more impactful than market risk.

This is why I've erred in the side of figuring out how to keep working as part of my best life. With a failing body, you just don't want budget constraints to limit quality of life.

Shit gets real if your legs stop working.

[use2betrix]

I’m happy to be getting closer to a “number” as the years travel on and as I have already downshifted some in my career.

Lean FI: $2mm + paid off house
FI: $3mm + paid off house (could hit in around 8-10 years at around 45 y/o)
Fat FI: $5mm + paid off house

These are largely due to my current (and relatively poor) spending habits. Also have a 2 year old, another on the way, and a SAH spouse. Numbers could drop with reduced spending. My “expenses” are low in terms of 0 debt, it’s the hobbies/toys/misc that kills me.

I would love get to my Lean FI number and find a good as-needed coast-FI position. This could be doing consulting work within my industry (certainly a possibility), or turning one of my hobbies into a cash flow.

[ca-rn]

^^^yeah unpredictable expenses are...er..hard to predict! That may be the reason people here work years longer just to off set that unpredictable risk. Or why Fat FIRE numbers are so high.  They don't spend more on shiny things they just want greater safety. Maybe a better question instead of stash size is, barring expensive or unlikely catastrophic events, how much do you plan to spend once FIREd and and what's your planned WR?

That's the problem- unpredictable expenses are hard to predict!  Add in aging and some sort of disability will happen to all of us at some point in our lives. 

Living in the US, medical bankruptcy is too real and that seriously is a big fear for me.  I do what I can to stay healthy- eat mostly whole food plant based, exercise and sleep well and plan to have a fat stache for the later life stages.

My actual personal spend level is pretty low- not swayed by shiny things, housing (taxes/insurance/maint) and healthcare account for more than 75% of budget.

I am single w/no kids so need to generous budget for the future me that will need help to manage property (repairs/maint) and life (shopping/cooking/cleaning) etc.

I think I'll plan to move into an assisted facility or ccrc- preferably international but who knows???

[Villanelle]

The Fat number means we can live almost anywhere (except, sadly, the one place in the US we'd love to be if money were no object, and where very modest houses start at about $2m, but we could go to that larger metro area if we wanted to).

@Villanelle Where is your dream place to live? Mine would be southern California, near the beach. But that's never happening for me even if I could afford it.

Coronado, CA.  It's expensive even by SoCal/San Diego standards.  Current cheapest home available right now is this condo, at $1.05m, for 635 sqft. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1106-4th-St-APT-4-Coronado-CA-92118/241608126_zpid/

[spartana]

^^^yeah unpredictable expenses are...er..hard to predict! That may be the reason people here work years longer just to off set that unpredictable risk. Or why Fat FIRE numbers are so high.  They don't spend more on shiny things they just want greater safety. Maybe a better question instead of stash size is, barring expensive or unlikely catastrophic events, how much do you plan to spend once FIREd and and what's your planned WR?

For me they aren't "unlikely" though, so I really can't answer that.

I'm actively planning for the continued and escalating outsourcing of domestic labour, trying to figure out how to improve access to healthcare, and how to maintain a very high quality of life in a body that increasingly refuses to do a lot of frugal activities.

I've always, always said that personal risk is way more impactful than market risk.

This is why I've erred in the side of figuring out how to keep working as part of my best life. With a failing body, you just don't want budget constraints to limit quality of life.

Shit gets real if your legs stop working.

Yeah I think in your situation you have to treat all those current and likely future expenses as part of your normal (even lean) FIRE expenses since you will HAVE to cover those expenses. The rest of us kind of muddle along hoping either nothing bad happens, or that we have enough flexibility in our budget to cover that stuff. That's why lean FIRE would scare me personally (unless it was a short term plan) as there's just not enough flexibility in most people's lean FIRE finances/stash to cover much of anything else beyond your basic expenses. The ERE budget of "living in a van down by the river" on a small stash might be fine but if something happens and you can't do that any longer you need to plan for a bigger budget.