What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?

[LonerMatt]

For example, look at LonerMatt's post just above. Both the approaches he lists could be said to be optimal/"badass" using Malcat's definition, but the former seems to be more 'pure Mustachian'.

...and something I think we often don't talk about is the branding of minimalism/frugality/stoicism as macho toughness, badassity, etc. You can't have content without some form of bias/branding/leaning, it's not necessarily a malicious thing, but certainly the first 3-4 years of the blog/community were a bit more 'spend less get tough, etc'. I think there's some upside to that (people have more open discussions and push a bit harder against their peers' spending), but there's also some downsides (MMM himself MUST live in a tiny, unheated cave with only rainwater and universe dew to survive, AND he likes it!).

Really appreciate the post LonerMatt. I remember reading some of your posts (maybe it was on ERE) right when I was just starting out.

Was particularly interested in this one:

- Community and participation with friends/family is central to a good life: build up what's around you

I hadn't remembered it until you said something, but wasn't there a fair bit of emphasis early on on the ideal of finding a "tribe"? I thought I remembered hearing the term from either journals or posts early on. In googling I did find one blog post from Mr. Money Mustache on a value of a tribe of interconnected friends and living close enough to have spontaneous social interactions but it was from a bit later, in 2015.

I don't remember the 'tribe', but I believe you. Things that felt more about community: the existence of forums at all, the meetups, co-working spaces MMM set up, time spent with raising kids/family, posts from other members of MMM extended universe. There may well have been specific shout outs to communalism, but I'm specifically remembering the more active creation of our own community and the view that less time at work could mean more time with those we care for. Oh and the views of Epicurus that would be bandied about from time to time: where a meaningful community is central to lasting happiness.

Jacob is probably less of an example of this being an extreme introvert (AFAIK) and being insanely content to have absolutely nothing to do with anyone.

[LonerMatt]

The dominant ideas that I remember from when I started browsing ERE and MMM back in 2009/2010 were:

- Focus on savings through frugality and DIY, anticonsumerism is the easiest path to freedom (frugality is a muscle thinking)
- Increasing salary is nice but unnecessary
- Wealth is having the ability to do more with less, not just having a lot of $$$$ in investments
- Let's be skeptical about wealth and riches, there's a cost to keeping up with the jonses
- Community and participation with friends/family is central to a good life: build up what's around you
- Connect how you feel fulfilled and how that increases your quality of life, frugality or occasional income to make these things as sustainable as possible
.......

I guess a general move away from needing less and being more free to wanting more and accepting it. I think that's a shame. Certainly I'm no exception (though I make less money by the standards here I'd wager).

Thanks for this list @LonerMatt --these are the things I remember too.
I came to MMM from the ERE site and initially thought it was quite moderate compared to Jacob's approach (rice & lentils 5x/week!!) :)
Lurked for many years before venturing to post.

I loved how creative people were being with the (limited) resources they had access to.

It felt doable for me. I'm low income but live a very rich & satisfying life however it's slightly intimidating joining many of the threads. Some people want to save $100,000 in a year-- I haven't even hit that as my net worth yet, ha

Collectively these books, blogs & forums helped me get out of a mountain of student loan debt and get on track to have peace of mind financially. Plus, over the year I've been able to send financially-troubled friends to the blog as a way to share inspiration (ERE didn't capture their imaginations as easily as MMM was able to)

Plus, bikes! badassery! curiosity! challenging yourself! I still gain so much value from many people who post and contribute here.

Totally, and look I'm as guilty of the trend as anyone else, I've bought a car, live in a bigger place than I need, etc, etc. Maybe that amount of creative energy spent on spending less has a limited well for most of us, or maybe I'm trying to give myself an out ;)

[Loren Ver]

- Wealth is best, why are the poors so average/bad/why can't they just shut up? (I really feel the lack of posters earning <$50k a year but becoming much more independent and financially free, that's really been lost IMO)

The low earners are still here and still chipping away at FI, it's just that the low earners no longer advertise their income due to the overall disdain that you have noticed.

@Botany Bae
And losing all but a few of those voices in the general forum space has been a great loss in my view.  They brought a view and perspective that could be used by anyone (low earners on up).  Now the forums feel more like if you aren't making 6 figures+ you made a bad career choice and should ask for a do-over.  Great for the ones that are, not helpful for most of the population.

[nereo]

FYI there’s an entire active thread for us below median income earners and our journey towards FI. Several of the posters there are frequent posters in the rest of the forum. We just don’t mention our income all that much because it gets tiresome to hear so many case studies from posters with $10k/month take home pay. Different worlds

[G-dog]

FYI there’s an entire active thread for us below median income earners and our journey towards FI. Several of the posters there are frequent posters in the rest of the forum. We just don’t mention our income all that much because it gets tiresome to hear so many case studies from posters with $10k/month take home pay. Different worlds

Is this the low income thread Elle started?  I haven’t seen any posts there for awhile.

[Loren Ver]

Mine tags in with several points others have made (optimism, consuming less, optimizing, lack of idea diversity etc).

DH and I planned to FIRE with a less than 1 million stash and then did so, I feel like I need to caveat that with "by current MMM forum standards we are low spenders and risk takers (have a mortgage and student loan still to payoff) and apparently some kind of freaken weirdos."

I was a lurker a long time before my first post and a 1 million or less stash wasn't that unheard of, but I've gotten some interesting feedback over the years about maybe needing to rethink my plans because DOOOMMMM! 

Sorry, I can cut back my spending, yes, even more than I have now, or even make more money.  But I cannot get back time, ever.  Given that, I've prioritized.

It has made me more hesitant to post/share about the plan, I was happy with the plan and none of the feedback we were getting was constructive just gloom and doom (what if!?!?).   Maybe better to just be quiet and let the loud be heard, even if they are a pessimistic bunch that add years to the process.

Yeah, I miss the can-do attitude  of people retiring on 500K or even less, and the tales of their fierce and uncompromising baddasity. It feels like the bell curve has shifted to a lot more high-earners wanting a fat stash.
A million is a lot, even if you're retiring at 30.

@Missy B
The 500k and below people are like a salve after so many OMY+ posts from folks that reallllllllyyyyyy want to retire but just can't, even though they have millions and a sub 3% withdrawal rate. 

I love the flexibility, optimism, get-it-doneitness of the sub 500k crowd.  It wasn't for me, but I learn a lot from them, and am glad when they post.

[Jenny Wren]

FYI there’s an entire active thread for us below median income earners and our journey towards FI. Several of the posters there are frequent posters in the rest of the forum. We just don’t mention our income all that much because it gets tiresome to hear so many case studies from posters with $10k/month take home pay. Different worlds

Is this the low income thread Elle started?  I haven’t seen any posts there for awhile.

I also thought that thread died. Perhaps it's time to start a new one?

[G-dog]

FYI there’s an entire active thread for us below median income earners and our journey towards FI. Several of the posters there are frequent posters in the rest of the forum. We just don’t mention our income all that much because it gets tiresome to hear so many case studies from posters with $10k/month take home pay. Different worlds

Is this the low income thread Elle started?  I haven’t seen any posts there for awhile.

I also thought that thread died. Perhaps it's time to start a new one?

Elle locked it October 2019 https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/low-income-group-journal/1100/

[Morning Glory]

Someone could start a poll, about household annual income. I haven't seen one of those in a while. I don't know how to really account for people who have downshifted though. Maybe ask "what was your household income in your highest-earning year?" Of course there are too many ways to measure it to give an accurate picture, so we'd have to have some instructions to make it consistent.

[maizefolk]

This sounds ridiculous as I'm writing it, but MMM was the first place I remember reading the idea that "your spending should not be tied to your income." Even though I've always been fairly frugal, I had never intellectually challenged the conventional wisdom that "you should save 20% of your income". If you make more, obviously you should spend more. This was such an eye opener for me.

Not ridiculous at all. Most of the retirement calculators one runs into associated with 401k plans and the like specifically present your spending in retirement as XX% of your current take home pay. And many of them have hard lower limits on the minimum percent of your current take home you're allowed to aim for in retirement. So the idea that our spending is a function of our income gets hammered into us every time a person without exposure to the concepts behind FIRE tries to learn more about saving/personal finance.

I was very fortunate to find ERE and then MMM while I was still a graduate student. Even once you realize spending doesn't need to be linked to income, it's an awful lot easier to just avoid growing your spending (or growing your spending as much) when your income goes up than to actually scale back spending once one has gotten used to spending most of a higher income.

[nereo]

FYI there’s an entire active thread for us below median income earners and our journey towards FI. Several of the posters there are frequent posters in the rest of the forum. We just don’t mention our income all that much because it gets tiresome to hear so many case studies from posters with $10k/month take home pay. Different worlds

Is this the low income thread Elle started?  I haven’t seen any posts there for awhile.

I also thought that thread died. Perhaps it's time to start a new one?

Elle locked it October 2019 https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/low-income-group-journal/1100/

There’s been a whole succession of such threads.  Here’s one of the latest (still active)
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-100-fi-(only-if-below-median-household-income!!!)/

[wenchsenior]

I also love the posts by the low earners.  We started out as 'old' by standards of FIRE, and also low-er (though certainly not low) earners...household income just above the median. Now we are high-ish earners (though not particularly so compared with this board, where there seems to be a lot of people now earning household incomes well above 100K).  I try to maintain somewhat of the mindset of our student and lower earning days and the low income posters help me do that. Plus, I enjoy their creativity.

As several others have mentioned, the most valuable things I learned from this board were 1) the concept of not falling into hedonic adaptation (we've done a good job with that, I think...very little increase in discretionary spending in the past 10 years, though overall spending increased at one point as we took on support for another person in a separate house).  But we just kept ramping our savings as our income increased, and this forum kept me in the right mindset to do it. 2) 'Circle of control'.  I'd never heard of it before, and adoption of that philosophy has helped me dramatically decrease my levels of anxiety and mild depression.

I don't generally find the changing make-up of the board disturbing (though I do miss Sol), but I do find it pretty funny when I see threads devoted to cars and other high dollar 'hobbies' on this board of all boards, or the influx of newbs that are speculating in crypto or what-have-you.  Even as someone who doesn't care much for biking and is not going to adopt biking as a substitute for driving to most places in this particular city (I know multiple people who've been killed or injured while biking locally, far more than I know people who've been injured in car accidents, + I also was permanently injured when I was struck by a biker in college), I still really appreciate a community that causes me to really question the value of my car and driving it.  Before hanging out here, I might have fallen into the common practice of getting a new(ish) car every 5-10 years, whereas now we aim to get 20 years out of each car that we've bought; and I've been far happier as a 1-car house than I would have ever expected 20 years ago.  And I've shifted to walking (and occasionally biking, in very low traffic areas) to places much more than when I started hanging out here.  It never occurred to me in pre-MMM era to just walk or bike to my local drugstore or grocery store to pick up a few things that I need, which I commonly do now. Not that I objected to the concept of walking; it's just that I was raised by people who would drive 500 yards to get a pack of cigs from the quick-e-mart...the point of having a car was to use the car, according to how I was raised.   It also wouldn't have occurred to me to plan multiple errand runs on the same day, in a clockwise order around the city so that I would spend the least amount of time and gas/idling/carbon, rather than just running out on impulse to a single store across town when I decide I need something.  Likewise, I never shopped in bulk or on sales at the grocery store until hanging out here (I never even knew what those grocery store flyers were for b/c I never glanced at them).  Overall, this place has made me a lot more mindful of concepts about value-per-dollar and value-of-time and how a mismatch of those things is often pushed by American culture, to the existential misery of many of us.

There have been a lot of little things like that this place has brought to my attention and kept 'in front of me' so to speak, and I really appreciate that.  Consumerism in pursuit of happiness rarely works, and this place keeps that front and center for me.

[nereo]

This sounds ridiculous as I'm writing it, but MMM was the first place I remember reading the idea that "your spending should not be tied to your income." Even though I've always been fairly frugal, I had never intellectually challenged the conventional wisdom that "you should save 20% of your income". If you make more, obviously you should spend more. This was such an eye opener for me.

Not ridiculous at all. Most of the retirement calculators one runs into associated with 401k plans and the like specifically present your spending in retirement as XX% of your current take home pay. And many of them have hard lower limits on the minimum percent of your current take home you're allowed to aim for in retirement. So the idea that our spending is a function of our income gets hammered into us every time a person without exposure to the concepts behind FIRE tries to learn more about saving/personal finance.

I was very fortunate to find ERE and then MMM while I was still a graduate student. Even once you realize spending doesn't need to be linked to income, it's an awful lot easier to just avoid growing your spending (or growing your spending as much) when your income goes up than to actually scale back spending once one has gotten used to spending most of a higher income.

I loathe most retirement/savings calculators for this very reason.  Many are designed (e.g. with sliders) where you simply cannot save more than 20% of your income.  Others spit out budgets where your expenses are within a range of your salary.  Neither are givens for a Mustachian saver, and steers you towards some rather lackluster financial decisions.

I remember one that - no matter what assumptions you fed into the ‘model’ - would spit out an answer that you needed MORE MONEY to retire before age 50.  Why? Because it wouldn’t let me ‘save’ enough of my income each year, so even with $5MM hypothetically in the bank I still needed to work 30 years to “retire”.

[G-dog]

This sounds ridiculous as I'm writing it, but MMM was the first place I remember reading the idea that "your spending should not be tied to your income." Even though I've always been fairly frugal, I had never intellectually challenged the conventional wisdom that "you should save 20% of your income". If you make more, obviously you should spend more. This was such an eye opener for me.

Not ridiculous at all. Most of the retirement calculators one runs into associated with 401k plans and the like specifically present your spending in retirement as XX% of your current take home pay. And many of them have hard lower limits on the minimum percent of your current take home you're allowed to aim for in retirement. So the idea that our spending is a function of our income gets hammered into us every time a person without exposure to the concepts behind FIRE tries to learn more about saving/personal finance.

I was very fortunate to find ERE and then MMM while I was still a graduate student. Even once you realize spending doesn't need to be linked to income, it's an awful lot easier to just avoid growing your spending (or growing your spending as much) when your income goes up than to actually scale back spending once one has gotten used to spending most of a higher income.

I loathe most retirement/savings calculators for this very reason.  Many are designed (e.g. with sliders) where you simply cannot save more than 20% of your income.  Others spit out budgets where your expenses are within a range of your salary.  Neither are givens for a Mustachian saver, and steers you towards some rather lackluster financial decisions.

I remember one that - no matter what assumptions you fed into the ‘model’ - would spit out an answer that you needed MORE MONEY to retire before age 50.  Why? Because it wouldn’t let me ‘save’ enough of my income each year, so even with $5MM hypothetically in the bank I still needed to work 30 years to “retire”.

Yes. even though I asked and searched for decades - MMM was the first place I found where the money needed to retire was tied to your expenses, NOT your income. The income metric never made sense to me since I wasn’t spending 80% of my income (except the first years of working).  Finally, a metric that made sense.  I wasn’t tracking my expenses when I found MMM, so I started that right away.  I retired about a year later.

[Morning Glory]

This sounds ridiculous as I'm writing it, but MMM was the first place I remember reading the idea that "your spending should not be tied to your income." Even though I've always been fairly frugal, I had never intellectually challenged the conventional wisdom that "you should save 20% of your income". If you make more, obviously you should spend more. This was such an eye opener for me.

Not ridiculous at all. Most of the retirement calculators one runs into associated with 401k plans and the like specifically present your spending in retirement as XX% of your current take home pay. And many of them have hard lower limits on the minimum percent of your current take home you're allowed to aim for in retirement. So the idea that our spending is a function of our income gets hammered into us every time a person without exposure to the concepts behind FIRE tries to learn more about saving/personal finance.

I was very fortunate to find ERE and then MMM while I was still a graduate student. Even once you realize spending doesn't need to be linked to income, it's an awful lot easier to just avoid growing your spending (or growing your spending as much) when your income goes up than to actually scale back spending once one has gotten used to spending most of a higher income.

I loathe most retirement/savings calculators for this very reason.  Many are designed (e.g. with sliders) where you simply cannot save more than 20% of your income.  Others spit out budgets where your expenses are within a range of your salary.  Neither are givens for a Mustachian saver, and steers you towards some rather lackluster financial decisions.

I remember one that - no matter what assumptions you fed into the ‘model’ - would spit out an answer that you needed MORE MONEY to retire before age 50.  Why? Because it wouldn’t let me ‘save’ enough of my income each year, so even with $5MM hypothetically in the bank I still needed to work 30 years to “retire”.

I hate those too. I remember one that work put on their website, which was sponsored by the life insurance company they use. It not only wouldn't let me save more than 30% of my income, but also unsurprisingly told me that I needed to buy more life insurance.

[nereo]

We’ve always had the goal/philosophy of “Live on one income” - at least partly because funding could leave one us unemployed for a prolonged period.  I never realized that such behavior was considered ‘extreme’ until I started searching through the mainstream finance advice columns, and most of them were like “If you can, try to save at least 10% of your income, though 15% would be better if circumstances allow it.  This will give you some cushion when you have an emergency like needing a new car”.

Meanwhile, I’m like “just 10%??!! How do people sleep at night spending over 90% of their money? And how is buying a car a true emergency?  If you know you’re going to need to replace your car at some point (even if you don’t know exactly when), isn’t that a planned-for expense?”

It was nice to find this community where I wasn’t viewed as some miser for wanting to max out my retirement accounts before considering a two-week to Fiji (note: I’ve never been to Fiji).

[ixtap]

Yes. even though I asked and searched for decades - MMM was the first place I found where the money needed to retire was tied to your expenses, NOT your income. The income metric never made sense to me since I wasn’t spending 80% of my income (except the first years of working).  Finally, a metric that made sense.  I wasn’t tracking my expenses when I found MMM, so I started that right away.  I retired about a year later.

We found MMM because I was looking for how to manage our funds while taking a planned 10 year sabbatical. We had planned to save up 10x in taxable and take off for awhile. The idea that we might not have to go back wasn't really on our radar until we found MMM. Although we were doing very well with our overall savings, including making the most of tax shelters, except for the MBR, I had never really thought about retirement: I was just shoveling away and hoping it would all work out by the time I was old. I don't think I even knew that I had access to my Roth IRA contributions penalty free; that was just part of those nebulous retirement savings.

[G-dog]

We’ve always had the goal/philosophy of “Live on one income” - at least partly because funding could leave one us unemployed for a prolonged period. 

Yes - it wasn’t explicitly stated until we bought a house with a mortgage we could still afford on only one of our paychecks.
I was probably spending 90% of my income when I first graduated from university and started my first (low paying) job. But I was still specifically saving $ each paycheck.  I do realize that this is a luxury that not everyone gets.

[G-dog]

Yes. even though I asked and searched for decades - MMM was the first place I found where the money needed to retire was tied to your expenses, NOT your income. The income metric never made sense to me since I wasn’t spending 80% of my income (except the first years of working).  Finally, a metric that made sense.  I wasn’t tracking my expenses when I found MMM, so I started that right away.  I retired about a year later.

We found MMM because I was looking for how to manage our funds while taking a planned 10 year sabbatical. We had planned to save up 10x in taxable and take off for awhile. The idea that we might not have to go back wasn't really on our radar until we found MMM. Although we were doing very well with our overall savings, including making the most of tax shelters, except for the MBR, I had never really thought about retirement: I was just shoveling away and hoping it would all work out by the time I was old. I don't think I even knew that I had access to my Roth IRA contributions penalty free; that was just part of those nebulous retirement savings.

Yes! I was also blindly saving and using work plan (401k) without really understanding how to optimize the investment or taxes or how to withdraw eventually.  I had to do some fast learning when I decided to retire.  I am still learning and re-learning some things.

[nereo]

We’ve always had the goal/philosophy of “Live on one income” - at least partly because funding could leave one us unemployed for a prolonged period. 

Yes - it wasn’t explicitly stated until we bought a house with a mortgage we could still afford on only one of our paychecks.
I was probably spending 90% of my income when I first graduated from university and started my first (low paying) job. But I was still specifically saving $ each paycheck.  I do realize that this is a luxury that not everyone gets.

Reminds me of the first time we got “pre-approved” for a mortgage and the loan officer said:you could buy a home worth 3x what the one you are considering costs.

Maybe according to your models, but that would leave little for us to save. Both of us looked at the number they gave and our income and said that’s utterly ridiculous
Turns out it’s pretty common to but as much as they say you can afford. Why did we have the Great Recession, I wonder...

[Metalcat]

We’ve always had the goal/philosophy of “Live on one income” - at least partly because funding could leave one us unemployed for a prolonged period. 

Yes - it wasn’t explicitly stated until we bought a house with a mortgage we could still afford on only one of our paychecks.
I was probably spending 90% of my income when I first graduated from university and started my first (low paying) job. But I was still specifically saving $ each paycheck.  I do realize that this is a luxury that not everyone gets.

Reminds me of the first time we got “pre-approved” for a mortgage and the loan officer said:you could buy a home worth 3x what the one you are considering costs.

Maybe according to your models, but that would leave little for us to save. Both of us looked at the number they gave and our income and said that’s utterly ridiculous
Turns out it’s pretty common to but as much as they say you can afford. Why did we have the Great Recession, I wonder...

Same, we got pre-approved for 1.5M, bought a place for 150K

[Warlord1986]

The one thing I really miss is the optimism. It seems like the forums have gotten more cynical in the past few years.

MMM landed on my radar not long after I started my first job out of grad school. I liked the idea of being a bamf and retiring young. I figured that if I didn't retire young, or if I had an emergency that needed a huge chunk of change thrown at it, I would still be in a better position than if I was broke. It was a win-win situation and it seemed like I encountered that on the forums.

I left a really toxic job in late 2018, and worked part time for a while. I was able to make rent and put food on the table without stressing. Now I make $21,000 a year after taxes, and I live like a king. I'm much happier and healthier. I recently hit a big financial milestone, and my side hustles are doing well. Life is good and at least part of that is due to outrageous optimism.

[nereo]

We’ve always had the goal/philosophy of “Live on one income” - at least partly because funding could leave one us unemployed for a prolonged period. 

Yes - it wasn’t explicitly stated until we bought a house with a mortgage we could still afford on only one of our paychecks.
I was probably spending 90% of my income when I first graduated from university and started my first (low paying) job. But I was still specifically saving $ each paycheck.  I do realize that this is a luxury that not everyone gets.

Reminds me of the first time we got “pre-approved” for a mortgage and the loan officer said:you could buy a home worth 3x what the one you are considering costs.

Maybe according to your models, but that would leave little for us to save. Both of us looked at the number they gave and our income and said that’s utterly ridiculous
Turns out it’s pretty common to but as much as they say you can afford. Why did we have the Great Recession, I wonder...

Same, we got pre-approved for 1.5M, bought a place for 150K

So... you chose to be a millionaire rather than live deeply in debt in a million dollar home...

It’s fascinating how many people don’t get that correlation.

[Metalcat]

The one thing I really miss is the optimism. It seems like the forums have gotten more cynical in the past few years.

MMM landed on my radar not long after I started my first job out of grad school. I liked the idea of being a bamf and retiring young. I figured that if I didn't retire young, or if I had an emergency that needed a huge chunk of change thrown at it, I would still be in a better position than if I was broke. It was a win-win situation and it seemed like I encountered that on the forums.

I left a really toxic job in late 2018, and worked part time for a while. I was able to make rent and put food on the table without stressing. Now I make $21,000 a year after taxes, and I live like a king. I'm much happier and healthier. I recently hit a big financial milestone, and my side hustles are doing well. Life is good and at least part of that is due to outrageous optimism.

The stronger the markets it seems the worse the pessimism. Top Is In seems to make people constantly obsess about the sky falling.

[ender]

The one thing I really miss is the optimism. It seems like the forums have gotten more cynical in the past few years.

MMM landed on my radar not long after I started my first job out of grad school. I liked the idea of being a bamf and retiring young. I figured that if I didn't retire young, or if I had an emergency that needed a huge chunk of change thrown at it, I would still be in a better position than if I was broke. It was a win-win situation and it seemed like I encountered that on the forums.

I left a really toxic job in late 2018, and worked part time for a while. I was able to make rent and put food on the table without stressing. Now I make $21,000 a year after taxes, and I live like a king. I'm much happier and healthier. I recently hit a big financial milestone, and my side hustles are doing well. Life is good and at least part of that is due to outrageous optimism.

The stronger the markets it seems the worse the pessimism. Top Is In seems to make people constantly obsess about the sky falling.

My speculation is that this forum tends to be pretty liberal in general and, well, the last 5 years haven't been the most optimistic of times for a lot of people given the president/covid situation in the USA.

[Nords]

Nords I think spends most of his time surfing and only occasionally pops in to make some very detailed posts. And about a dozen other posters that FIRED and found they had learned what they needed and now had better things to do with their time than post here.

It’s the circle of FI life, right? 

These days you can also add grandparenting to the “most of his time” list.  We’re visiting our daughter and son-in-law in Monterey CA for the next six weeks to chase around our 16-month-old toddler Arya.

I search for keywords here every week or so, and the forum software e-mails me whenever I’m tagged or messaged.  Those are the best way to reach me, and also the reason that almost all of my recent posts here are so detailed.

I spend most of my online time answering questions on Facebook and Linkedin military groups, or working on blog posts and the next book.  Hypothetically 10% of every American forum’s membership is a military vet or family member, but on FB military groups it’s closer to 100%. 

[Fomerly known as something]

The stronger the markets it seems the worse the pessimism. Top Is In seems to make people constantly obsess about the sky falling.
[/quote]

Are we reading the same thread to me that thread is one big riff on don’t try to time the market not us obsessing about it.

[Gin1984]

FYI there’s an entire active thread for us below median income earners and our journey towards FI. Several of the posters there are frequent posters in the rest of the forum. We just don’t mention our income all that much because it gets tiresome to hear so many case studies from posters with $10k/month take home pay. Different worlds

Is this the low income thread Elle started?  I haven’t seen any posts there for awhile.

When she locked it, I started a second one: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/low-income-journal-vs-2/msg2474544/#msg2474544
However it has not been active since 2020.

[G-dog]

FYI there’s an entire active thread for us below median income earners and our journey towards FI. Several of the posters there are frequent posters in the rest of the forum. We just don’t mention our income all that much because it gets tiresome to hear so many case studies from posters with $10k/month take home pay. Different worlds

Is this the low income thread Elle started?  I haven’t seen any posts there for awhile.

When she locked it, I started a second one: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/low-income-journal-vs-2/msg2474544/#msg2474544
However it has not been active since 2020.

Thanks - I hope it is resurrected. 

[Metalcat]

The stronger the markets it seems the worse the pessimism. Top Is In seems to make people constantly obsess about the sky falling.

Are we reading the same thread to me that thread is one big riff on don’t try to time the market not us obsessing about it.
[/quote]

I don't mean the thread, I mean the concept behind the joke of that thread, that the Top Is In drives people to constantly fear that there's a horrible crash around the corner.

I'm saying that the longer the markets are good, the more pessimistic people become

[nereo]

The stronger the markets it seems the worse the pessimism. Top Is In seems to make people constantly obsess about the sky falling.

Are we reading the same thread to me that thread is one big riff on don’t try to time the market not us obsessing about it.

I don't mean the thread, I mean the concept behind the joke of that thread, that the Top Is In drives people to constantly fear that there's a horrible crash around the corner.

I'm saying that the longer the markets are good, the more pessimistic people become
[/quote]

Personally, I blame @thorstach.

[RWD]

runewell, who created dozens and dozens of pages of arguments on the stop worrying about the 4% rule thread and actually got it locked for a time springs to mind.

@maizefolk I think runewell called me racist the one interaction I had.  Up 'till then, I would grab the popcorn when I came across his (her?) ridiculous demands for apologies, but then I felt its wrath...

runewell was one of the early additions to my ignore list. I'm pretty sure the first user I put on the list was mrpercentage. There are several similar posters who are still active on here. I feel like there will always be a few that drain the life energy out of everyone else...

[Paper Chaser]

I think what MMM was truly selling was a willingness to question a given status quo. Is it possible to save more, or spend less or retire earlier than "normal"? Does spending that money truly make you happy and lead to life satisfaction, or is it just a temporary high?

The end result of questioning these things seems to be freedom from things that are contributing to an undercurrent of unhappiness in your life. Freedom from debt, or a cube farm, or a soul sucking commute. Freedom from depending on others to handle your investments, or grow/prepare your food, or do that basic DIY project around the house, or keep you healthy.

I think that ties back into the optimism point. If you're willing to question the status quo and go your own way, then you're probably more likely to be content in your life, and have enough self awareness and confidence to DIY any number of things.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

I think what MMM was truly selling was a willingness to question a given status quo. Is it possible to save more, or spend less or retire earlier than "normal"? Does spending that money truly make you happy and lead to life satisfaction, or is it just a temporary high?

The end result of questioning these things seems to be freedom from things that are contributing to an undercurrent of unhappiness in your life. Freedom from debt, or a cube farm, or a soul sucking commute. Freedom from depending on others to handle your investments, or grow/prepare your food, or do that basic DIY project around the house, or keep you healthy.

I think that ties back into the optimism point. If you're willing to question the status quo and go your own way, then you're probably more likely to be content in your life, and have enough self awareness and confidence to DIY any number of things.

I wish more people would take on this message. It works no matter what flavour of FIRE you prefer.

The most important things schools can teach children is - "If someone's being paid to tell you something, you ought to be sceptical." Doesn't matter if it's a financial advisor, an advertiser, a politician, an influencer or a salesperson.

[Dicey]

This looks interesting. Posting to find it later when I have time to read through it. Been following the blog since Jacob at ERE gave Pete the nod. Forum member since 2012.

[Tinker]

Ideas? "Mustachianism".
It's mostly just FIRE now.

A lot of very high earning people living lives fueled by external stimuli are here now, planning for FIRE from mid 5 well into 6 digit yearly spending.
Less stoicism, less ingenuity, less being content with yourself.

[TomTX]

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

[TomTX]

Another one that occurred to me, somewhat connected to the outsourcing argument, was that early on there was a lot of emphasis on weightlifting/physical fitness* as something that directly contributed to happiness. It wasn't unique to MMM, I remember learning about kettlebells for the first time from an ERE post.

Having been both in shape and out of shape over the years, I can certainly vouch for just feeling better and happier (and less tired all the time) when I was taking care of my body.

*Standard disclaimer that these aren't things that are possible or practical for everyone.

I was just about to tell you that I am insulted because I am 99 years old and wheelchair-bound, and not able to use kettlebells.

Here ya go! 1-lb kettlebell.

https://www.amazon.com/Kettlebell-Stocking-Stuffer-Enthusiast-Athletes/dp/B071S1NM1V

[tipster350]

Another one that occurred to me, somewhat connected to the outsourcing argument, was that early on there was a lot of emphasis on weightlifting/physical fitness* as something that directly contributed to happiness. It wasn't unique to MMM, I remember learning about kettlebells for the first time from an ERE post.

Having been both in shape and out of shape over the years, I can certainly vouch for just feeling better and happier (and less tired all the time) when I was taking care of my body.

*Standard disclaimer that these aren't things that are possible or practical for everyone.

I was just about to tell you that I am insulted because I am 99 years old and wheelchair-bound, and not able to use kettlebells.

Here ya go! 1-lb kettlebell.

https://www.amazon.com/Kettlebell-Stocking-Stuffer-Enthusiast-Athletes/dp/B071S1NM1V

How thoughtful of you! Thank you

[Loren Ver]

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

[wenchsenior]

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

[Morning Glory]

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

A bald eagle stole a couple of chickens last year, and there was an article about ravens stealing meat in the Costco parking lot.

I hang the clothes inside for about half the year or they would freeze dry. I prefer outside when I can though.

[Dicey]

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

A bald eagle stole a couple of chickens last year, and there was an article about ravens stealing meat in the Costco parking lot.

I hang the clothes inside for about half the year or they would freeze dry. I prefer outside when I can though.

I asked my Costco brother about this and he said it really is a thing! He also says warehouses with outdoor seating areas attract food-stealing birds of all kinds.

Also, my DSD lives in CO. She laughed when she saw how fat our squirrels are. (We Do Not Feed Them.) We just visited her in CO and we grok why she was laughing. They are so tiny in CO! Must be the harsher winters.

[Morning Glory]

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

A bald eagle stole a couple of chickens last year, and there was an article about ravens stealing meat in the Costco parking lot.

I hang the clothes inside for about half the year or they would freeze dry. I prefer outside when I can though.

I asked my Costco brother about this and he said it really is a thing! He also says warehouses with outdoor seating areas attract food-stealing birds of all kinds.

Also, my DSD lives in CO. She laughed when she saw how fat our squirrels are. (We Do Not Feed Them.) We just visited her in CO and we grok why she was laughing. They are so tiny in CO! Must be the harsher winters.

Our winters are harsher than Colorado's, and our squirrels are pretty fat.

[Imma]

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

A bald eagle stole a couple of chickens last year, and there was an article about ravens stealing meat in the Costco parking lot.

I hang the clothes inside for about half the year or they would freeze dry. I prefer outside when I can though.

Freeze drying is absolutely a thing though. My grandma used to tell me stories about when they had several kids in clothes diapers and only one coal stove to heat their house, she was so grateful when it was cold and dry enough outside to freeze dry the diapers instead of having drying racks all around the stove. Winter wasn't as bad because it was freezing so often, but she said fall and spring were terrible because those are usually cold and wet where she lived.

[Morning Glory]

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

A bald eagle stole a couple of chickens last year, and there was an article about ravens stealing meat in the Costco parking lot.

I hang the clothes inside for about half the year or they would freeze dry. I prefer outside when I can though.

Freeze drying is absolutely a thing though. My grandma used to tell me stories about when they had several kids in clothes diapers and only one coal stove to heat their house, she was so grateful when it was cold and dry enough outside to freeze dry the diapers instead of having drying racks all around the stove. Winter wasn't as bad because it was freezing so often, but she said fall and spring were terrible because those are usually cold and wet where she lived.

I've heard of freeze drying but never done it. The air in the house gets dry in the winter so I like putting the clothes racks in the bedrooms to add humidity.  My house is probably quite a bit bigger than your grandma's was, and it has central heat. She probably had to cook on that stove too. That would make some good stories for today's young people. I skied to work once a couple years ago and people still talk about it.

[GodlessCommie]

Freeze drying is absolutely a thing though.

Confirming that freeze drying is a thing, although it's been a while since we've done it - partially from hedonic adaptation, partially from the lack of sub-zero (Celsius) days.

[wenchsenior]

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

A bald eagle stole a couple of chickens last year, and there was an article about ravens stealing meat in the Costco parking lot.

I hang the clothes inside for about half the year or they would freeze dry. I prefer outside when I can though.

A bald eagle stole chickens? Huh...that's not their usual prey, which is fish or carrion.  Did you actually see this, or did you assume it?  I totally could see ravens stealing grocery meat, though. That sounds right up their alley. Corvids are amazing.

[Jenny Wren]

A bald eagle stole chickens? Huh...that's not their usual prey, which is fish or carrion.  Did you actually see this, or did you assume it?  I totally could see ravens stealing grocery meat, though. That sounds right up their alley. Corvids are amazing.

Eagles have been known to take chickens from yards around here, if the space is open enough for an easy swoop and grab. The local backyard chicken group advises stringing clothesline with bird tape on it across the top of the fences, since eagles don't like to come down where they sense possible escape obstructions. We have so many bald eagles around it's crazy, and they are pretty opportunistic. I've seen them grab cottontails, as well.

[henramdrea]

New things bad; old things good.

Yes, it's the nostalgia syndrome.  Empire Strikes Back is the best Star-Wars installment.  Now fight me.

Seriously though, the conversations have seemed to drift over the years from the "frugal flex" to the "oh-no-I-only-have-2.5 million-in-my-stash flex".  I find these a little tiresome, so I don't read them anymore.  The advice is always the same, move-from-HCOL-downsize-clown-house, yadda, yadda.

I will credit the stock market's performance for the more lackluster, mushier content though.  What we need is a good ol' fashioned recession.  That'll teach us!