What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?

[Paul der Krake]

I've definitely not posted in some threads so I don't get caught in the cross fire of the usual pundits arguing over stupid shit, twelve quote blocks deep on each post, "so you admit"-ing each other, changing exactly nobody's mind.

I've definitely been guilty of being that person all too often. Sorry about that.

I don't remember you ever being annoying, even before your name change. You Sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Or do you have a troll-ish alt you want to confess to?

[simonsez]

Yes, the forum's median intelligence seems to have gone downhill or at least, the participation effort involved in posting.  It seems years ago you had better bring a cogent and nuanced discussion while allowing for multiple perspectives into the mix right away (that may have taken hours to research) or you'd be lost and better off lurking.  It was intimidating but the proportion of what you digested on the forum was of a much higher quality!

I seem to recall Bakari explaining in excellent detail how he made money taking his clothes off for a webcam site or something along those lines.  Not sure what else I recall that was NSFW.

Frankly, I think with the next market downturn/correction a lot of the undesirable forum content about which first world luxury to purchase/consume will be self-cleaning.

[Metalcat]

I've definitely not posted in some threads so I don't get caught in the cross fire of the usual pundits arguing over stupid shit, twelve quote blocks deep on each post, "so you admit"-ing each other, changing exactly nobody's mind.

I've definitely been guilty of being that person all too often. Sorry about that.

I don't remember you ever being annoying, even before your name change. You Sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Or do you have a troll-ish alt you want to confess to?

Definitely not annoying. Maize often feels like a breath of fresh air after being surrounded by smokers.

[bacchi]

Oh and the guy who shows up every few months to complain how badly his millionaire FIREd life is because he can't be a pilot. Sigh...

This is the guy who retired at 19 from a real estate empire and is now bored and wished he had entered cubicle life? And starts the same thread every time? If he's real, he needs a therapist.

[nereo]

Oh and the guy who shows up every few months to complain how badly his millionaire FIREd life is because he can't be a pilot. Sigh...

This is the guy who retired at 19 from a real estate empire and is now bored and wished he had entered cubicle life? And starts the same thread every time? If he's real, he needs a therapist.

speaking of which, anyone remember Old Pro?

I think Eric put it best when he said something like "we all enjoy reading your 'worlds-most-interesting-man shtick, but haven't got a clue why you are here when you seem to disagree with absolutely every tenant of this forum".

[maizefolk]

I've definitely not posted in some threads so I don't get caught in the cross fire of the usual pundits arguing over stupid shit, twelve quote blocks deep on each post, "so you admit"-ing each other, changing exactly nobody's mind.

I've definitely been guilty of being that person all too often. Sorry about that.

I don't remember you ever being annoying, even before your name change. You Sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Or do you have a troll-ish alt you want to confess to?

No toll account alt, just a deep and abiding weakness for continuing to participate in discussions that degenerate into fifteen-part separate quote text and response arguments. And hey, thanks!

[mathlete]

New things bad; old things good.

[nereo]

I've definitely not posted in some threads so I don't get caught in the cross fire of the usual pundits arguing over stupid shit, twelve quote blocks deep on each post, "so you admit"-ing each other, changing exactly nobody's mind.

I've definitely been guilty of being that person all too often. Sorry about that.

I don't remember you ever being annoying, even before your name change. You Sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Or do you have a troll-ish alt you want to confess to?

No toll account alt, just a deep and abiding weakness for continuing to participate in discussions that degenerate into fifteen-part separate quote text and response arguments. And hey, thanks!

Speaking of fifteen-part separate quote text responses...

Recently I've felt there was an uptick in posters who use the quote function poorly.  Both those who just keep clicking "quote" before every response (thereby resulting in this obnoxious wall of quoted-text before every response) but also those who just copy and paste a small snippet of someone's post before responding to it.  The latter makes it almost impossible to follow who is responding to what, and is frequently abused (e.g. posters taking a quote completely out of context).

I was once admonished by Dragoncar for using the quote function improperly (he said, "]fix your damn quotes. Then you can post").  I've had that thought multiple times in recent months.

[nereo]

New things bad; old things good.

Finally, someone who GETS IT!!

[Missy B]

For an example, look at the most successful indie authors. Do they self-edit? Do they design their own covers? Do they do formatting and handle uploading new versions of books to all the different platforms? Etc. Etc. Almost certainly, to at least some of these questions, the answer is "no." It would be unwise to try to become a jack-of-all-trades. It would be inefficient. You would suck at some of it and have to spend a lot of time just to gain a minimal level of competence. Or some tasks are too small and too unimportant to devote your time/energy/brainpower to.

Your example contains a major inaccuracy. I actually have insight into the indy author world, as my partner does a lot of cover art for successful independent authors. The thing is, in their early days (comparable to the accumulation phase in the MMM philosophy), they DID do a lot of their own editing and cover design. Sure, they may have had friends help or they would barter for help if they were really bad at it, but overall it was the DIY mentality. It is only after they have some success that they hire on outside contractors. Whenever my partner gets a new author client, often one of the first things they do is have her re-do the amateur covers on their sometimes extensive backlist. They were successful first, they invested later. This is the way of it for most successful creatives.

Exactly. Nearly all the indies I follow, including 7 and 8 figure authors, started by doing their own covers and formatting - some still do, if it passes the WIBBOW test for them.

[nereo]

For an example, look at the most successful indie authors. Do they self-edit? Do they design their own covers? Do they do formatting and handle uploading new versions of books to all the different platforms? Etc. Etc. Almost certainly, to at least some of these questions, the answer is "no." It would be unwise to try to become a jack-of-all-trades. It would be inefficient. You would suck at some of it and have to spend a lot of time just to gain a minimal level of competence. Or some tasks are too small and too unimportant to devote your time/energy/brainpower to.

Your example contains a major inaccuracy. I actually have insight into the indy author world, as my partner does a lot of cover art for successful independent authors. The thing is, in their early days (comparable to the accumulation phase in the MMM philosophy), they DID do a lot of their own editing and cover design. Sure, they may have had friends help or they would barter for help if they were really bad at it, but overall it was the DIY mentality. It is only after they have some success that they hire on outside contractors. Whenever my partner gets a new author client, often one of the first things they do is have her re-do the amateur covers on their sometimes extensive backlist. They were successful first, they invested later. This is the way of it for most successful creatives.

Exactly. Nearly all the indies I follow, including 7 and 8 figure authors, started by doing their own covers and formatting - some still do, if it passes the WIBBOW test for them.

Here's another perspective:
I'm part of an extremely fast-growing business that's about as vertically integrated as they come.  Right now we all, at some point or another, are called on to do every aspect of the job. I sometimes feel like a fish that's been given a bicycle and told to enter a triathlon, but it's given me an in-depth understanding of what's involved.
We are actively expanding, hiring and outsourcing a good chunk of our work so we can concentrate on the things we do best.  but without going through this process I wouldn't know what I could realistically do for about the same amount or less than what other companies are offering, and frankly I wouldn't be as good as I am at my job.
 

[lutorm]

I enjoy DIY, I DIY things that most people consider insane, I enjoy learning new things and being self-sufficient.

But another major factor that makes me DIY is that almost every time I have decided that something is too difficult or needs too specialized tools or whatever and decided to outsource it, the supposed professionals do such a crap job that I end up wishing I had done it myself.

Maybe they get away with this shit because most people don't know enough to actually judge the quality of the job, but I've spent enough time educating myself about the task to decide I don't want to do it, so I DO want to see it done better than if I had done it myself.

That and, unless the job is huge, contracting out doesn't end up saving any time either, because FINDING someone who doesn't suck takes more time than it takes to learn how to do it and do it yourself.

I wish I could claim to be some hardcore DIYer taking the hard route but, really, to me it feels like the path of least resistance.

[nereo]

But another major factor that makes me DIY is that almost every time I have decided that something is too difficult or needs too specialized tools or whatever and decided to outsource it, the supposed professionals do such a crap job that I end up wishing I had done it myself.

i just closed on a live-in Reno where we decided to hire quite a few licensed contractors for various things.  More than half of those jobs I was underwhelmed by the work they had performed, regardless of the pay involved. It became particularly bad when Covid hit and there was a frenzy of home-improvement projects.

One person explained it to me like this:  As long as there's ample work, there's little incentive for a contractor to do anything beyond the absolute minimum stated on the contract. There's always another job, and even 'ghosting' and walking out on the final payment is more lucrative than doing the fine finishing work and cleanup that's normally required for a "job well done".

[frugalnacho]

New things bad; old things good.

The MMM forum peaked between my join date, and 2 years later.  That's the forum I'm nostalgic for, because it was objectively the best.

On an unrelated note rock music peaked during my most impressionable years of my youth when I was developing my interest in music.

Also the best tv shows and movies were produced in my late childhood.  Nothing can top early simpsons.

[joe189man]

New things bad; old things good.

The MMM forum peaked between my join date, and 2 years later.  That's the forum I'm nostalgic for, because it was objectively the best.

On an unrelated note rock music peaked during my most impressionable years of my youth when I was developing my interest in music.

Also the best tv shows and movies were produced in my late childhood.  Nothing can top early simpsons.

This sums up what i have been thinking while reading these posts, some of the points made are quite valid and deserve to be brought back into the fold or emphasized more often. Rigorous analysis and optimization i fully support, along with face punches, man our spending needs face punches, but i digress. Other comments are just nostalgic for an earlier time, sounding like old people complaining about the young kids these days ruining the neighborhood. i really like this discussion, maybe i need to re-read all of the earlier posts again. I just wanted to point out how the tone in some of these comments come off. Face punch if you must but keep the ideas coming

[G-dog]

New things bad; old things good.

The MMM forum peaked between my join date, and 2 years later.  That's the forum I'm nostalgic for, because it was objectively the best.

On an unrelated note rock music peaked during my most impressionable years of my youth when I was developing my interest in music.

Also the best tv shows and movies were produced in my late childhood.  Nothing can top early simpsons.

This sums up what i have been thinking while reading these posts, some of the points made are quite valid and deserve to be brought back into the fold or emphasized more often. Rigorous analysis and optimization i fully support, along with face punches, man our spending needs face punches, but i digress. Other comments are just nostalgic for an earlier time, sounding like old people complaining about the young kids these days ruining the neighborhood. i really like this discussion, maybe i need to re-read all of the earlier posts again. I just wanted to point out how the tone in some of these comments come off. Face punch if you must but keep the ideas coming

GET OFF MY LAWN!

I am not a big fan of how some people have used face punches as a personal attack.  I think the "spirit" of the face punch has been somewhat lost over time.  I don't see many face punches anymore - mostly I see people supporting whatever someone wants to spend.  Though, I don't review the case studies much because I lack the analytical prowess to be very helpful to people.

[maizefolk]

Yes, if you tell folks "I miss the days when there were more facepunches" it doesn't really sound that appealing does it?

"I missed the days when there was a much bigger emphasis on achieving financial freedom through badassity, and we really tried to help each other question what spending was actually essential or actually contributed to our happiness or life satisfaction" is a much longer mouthful but gets the concept across a lot better.

[RetiredAt63]

New things bad; old things good.

The MMM forum peaked between my join date, and 2 years later.  That's the forum I'm nostalgic for, because it was objectively the best.

On an unrelated note rock music peaked during my most impressionable years of my youth when I was developing my interest in music.

Also the best tv shows and movies were produced in my late childhood.  Nothing can top early simpsons.

You are 38 (you say).  The best rock music happened before you were born.  Everything since is derivative.   ;-)   

And all the moaning and groaning about not being able to buy a house because of high prices? Those of you with 3% mortgages, do you know how lucky you are?  I had a 12% mortgage once and was happy to have it, my friend renewed at 19%.  Printed mortgage tables (pre-computer) started at 7% and went up from there.

Seriously, all anyone who wants to see what was happening in previous years has to do is go back to early pages of long-running topics.  There are masses of good case studies, for example.  Just because something was posted 5 years ago doesn't mean it is of no value to newer forumites.

[nereo]

The MMM forum peaked between my join date, and 2 years later. 

I knew there was a correlation between the number of months you've been a member and the quality of this forum :-P

[nereo]

re: facepunches. 
It's meaning has shifted over the years.  Reading back to "the early days" (including how it was used by MMM) and notice that a facepunch was something one should give themselves, not something you should give to someone else.  It was supposed to be intraspective - a method for addressing your own stupid life decisions.  It wasn't vigilante justice to be doled out to others, particularly when they weren't seeking the criticism

[RetiredAt63]

re: facepunches. 
It's meaning has shifted over the years.  Reading back to "the early days" (including how it was used by MMM) and notice that a facepunch was something one should give themselves, not something you should give to someone else.  It was supposed to be intraspective - a method for addressing your own stupid life decisions.  It wasn't vigilante justice to be doled out to others, particularly when they weren't seeking the criticism

Yes, it is the human equivalent of house training a puppy with a rolled up newspaper.  You whack yourself with the newspaper because you didn't notice the puppy needed to go out.

Maybe it should be face slap instead.  As in, "I was so whatever I gave my self a slap"? m;-)

[ender]

re: facepunches. 
It's meaning has shifted over the years.  Reading back to "the early days" (including how it was used by MMM) and notice that a facepunch was something one should give themselves, not something you should give to someone else.  It was supposed to be intraspective - a method for addressing your own stupid life decisions.  It wasn't vigilante justice to be doled out to others, particularly when they weren't seeking the criticism

I think this is a big part of the change around facepunching.

People were asshats about facepunching others.

It's also worth noting how much the lifespan of the forum has correlated with market growth. It's been an easy 7 years to accumulate as the market has mostly gone up ever year...

[pressure9pa]

I'm not presenting anything new here, but it seems the last 3-4 years have been a drift from being a badass with savings to just being generally responsible.  Of course, your average spendypants would have trouble differentiating between those groups, but on our end of the spectrum the contrast is large.  This is probably a function of the amount of attention sites like this are getting. 

[Arbitrage]

I'm not presenting anything new here, but it seems the last 3-4 years have been a drift from being a badass with savings to just being generally responsible.  Of course, your average spendypants would have trouble differentiating between those groups, but on our end of the spectrum the contrast is large.  This is probably a function of the amount of attention sites like this are getting.

Indeed.  This forum is now more like Bogleheads-lite, with more of a focus on early retirement, less on financial theory, and lighter moderation.  Not to put down Bogleheads - I love the site and spent many good years there as a consumer and contributor.  However, it was nice to see how people used to be challenged here. 

Specifically with regards to DIY, I do think that people need to be more honest with themselves about it.  Firstly, are you really going to work and be paid extra if you don't DIY that project or chore?  I submit that in at least 90% of cases, the answer is no.  Secondly, you need to use your marginal tax rate, plus any extra expenses from working a la YMOYL, to do a direct comparison.  For me, that means that savings pays close to double after federal tax, state tax, payroll taxes, etc.  Of course, there's the building skills aspect of DIY as well, and possibly other benefits (personal pride, exercise, etc) that I don't think you can quantify unless you've at least tried it out. 

I outsource plenty of things, but do recognize that in many cases I feel great after doing something myself, and am thrilled to have accomplished something even if it didn't make sense by 'hourly rate' math.

[Metalcat]

I'm not presenting anything new here, but it seems the last 3-4 years have been a drift from being a badass with savings to just being generally responsible.  Of course, your average spendypants would have trouble differentiating between those groups, but on our end of the spectrum the contrast is large.  This is probably a function of the amount of attention sites like this are getting.

Indeed.  This forum is now more like Bogleheads-lite, with more of a focus on early retirement, less on financial theory, and lighter moderation.  Not to put down Bogleheads - I love the site and spent many good years there as a consumer and contributor.  However, it was nice to see how people used to be challenged here. 

Specifically with regards to DIY, I do think that people need to be more honest with themselves about it.  Firstly, are you really going to work and be paid extra if you don't DIY that project or chore?  I submit that in at least 90% of cases, the answer is no.  Secondly, you need to use your marginal tax rate, plus any extra expenses from working a la YMOYL, to do a direct comparison.  For me, that means that savings pays close to double after federal tax, state tax, payroll taxes, etc.  Of course, there's the building skills aspect of DIY as well, and possibly other benefits (personal pride, exercise, etc) that I don't think you can quantify unless you've at least tried it out. 

I outsource plenty of things, but do recognize that in many cases I feel great after doing something myself, and am thrilled to have accomplished something even if it didn't make sense by 'hourly rate' math.

See, I disagree with categorizing this place as Bogleheads light. I briefly forayed over into BH this past year when in embarked on a venture that would have made me many, many millions, and felt I needed more "rich person" financial information.

It's a totally different world over there.

I agree that the demographic here and financial priorities are becoming less differentiated, but this place is largely about reflecting on what spending decisions mean. It's very, very much about the emotional side of personal finance.

BH, to me, was painfully superficial in the depth at which they discussed things. I found it hugely lacking in curiosity and openness. The default response to anything even remotely outside of the echo chamber of content was met with suspicion and hostility.

Here a guy can post about his lack of sex life with his girlfriend and get 7 pages of thoughtful responses. We have threads where wildly different views about education, housing, outsourcing, etc, produce dynamic debates where it's not a given that there will be a dominant perspective.

This place is remarkably thoughtful and conscientious.

[maizefolk]

Secondly, you need to use your marginal tax rate, plus any extra expenses from working a la YMOYL, to do a direct comparison.  For me, that means that savings pays close to double after federal tax, state tax, payroll taxes, etc. 

Good point, Arbitrage!

This is another great piece of wisdom that used to be quite common place in discussions but which I haven't seen brought up in years (and honestly had forgotten about): cutting your spending by a dollar makes a much bigger impact than earning an extra dollar, particularly for high income people with high marginal tax rates.

[Metalcat]

Secondly, you need to use your marginal tax rate, plus any extra expenses from working a la YMOYL, to do a direct comparison.  For me, that means that savings pays close to double after federal tax, state tax, payroll taxes, etc. 

Good point, Arbitrage!

This is another great piece of wisdom that used to be quite common place in discussions but which I haven't seen brought up in years (and honestly had forgotten about): cutting your spending by a dollar makes a much bigger impact than earning an extra dollar, particularly for high income people with high marginal tax rates.

Agreed.

This is particularly important in the outsourcing debate, because if someone is legitimately making more money because they are outsourcing, which is very possible in some fields, then are these people prepared to stop all outsourcing once they retire?

Because otherwise the calculus needs to account for the additional savings needs to cover ongoing outsourcing when it's no longer causing a net gain.

Is someone who doesn't scrub their own toilet, mow their own lawn, patch their own drywall, tailor their own clothes, and groom their own pet suddenly going to start, and will they enjoy a life where they have to do all of those tasks?

If the outsourcing stops being in the service of increasing an income, then it's just a luxury, which again, is fine, but then it's not just a case of "I make $200/hr and house cleaning costs $30/hr, so I come out ahead".

We're back to MMM's whole point, which is to really think about what we're willing to spend on, and what it really means for our lives long term.

His whole thing about truly understanding the value of not spending vs making more, and the downline impacts in life was really powerful for me because I had the option at the time to just make tons and tons of money.

Instead, I focused on being happy living frugally, which saved my life when my career was cut short due to health issues.

Had I focused on the income side, and not the frugality side, the loss of my income would have been devastating. Instead, because our focus was on building our best frugal life, it made virtually no difference to our day to day lives.

I didn't suddenly have to learn how to cook, clean, do home repairs, cut my poodle's hair, detail my own car, repair my own bikes, repair my own clothes, cut my own hair, shop for quality used items, go without expensive Beauty supplies, socialize without spending money, etc, etc

We didn't have to give anything up, we already knew how to be happy on less. We didn't have to suddenly learn how to.

[estuaryflow]

I read the blogs for a while before I ventured over to the forum. Something that I loved about the blogs was that they focused on what was in our circle of control. Here, it feels like a rare day when a post doesn't find a way to turn into people arguing about things that are outside of our circle of control (namely: politics).

Circle of control! That's another good one. Again speaking only from my own personal experience a low information diet (MMM post from back 2013) when it comes to things outside my circle of control did wonders for peace of mind and life satisfaction.

I watched the old PBS special on Dick Proenneke last night.  As an active "Low Information Dieter", I appreciated the clip with him saying that he had a radio but anytime he turned it on, the news was irrelevant and discouraging to what he was living through daily, so he just wouldn't use it.   

All these years later I feel exactly the same way. 

[Morning Glory]

Secondly, you need to use your marginal tax rate, plus any extra expenses from working a la YMOYL, to do a direct comparison.  For me, that means that savings pays close to double after federal tax, state tax, payroll taxes, etc. 

Good point, Arbitrage!

This is another great piece of wisdom that used to be quite common place in discussions but which I haven't seen brought up in years (and honestly had forgotten about): cutting your spending by a dollar makes a much bigger impact than earning an extra dollar, particularly for high income people with high marginal tax rates.

Agreed.

This is particularly important in the outsourcing debate, because if someone is legitimately making more money because they are outsourcing, which is very possible in some fields, then are these people prepared to stop all outsourcing once they retire?

Because otherwise the calculus needs to account for the additional savings needs to cover ongoing outsourcing when it's no longer causing a net gain.

Is someone who doesn't scrub their own toilet, mow their own lawn, patch their own drywall, tailor their own clothes, and groom their own pet suddenly going to start, and will they enjoy a life where they have to do all of those tasks?

If the outsourcing stops being in the service of increasing an income, then it's just a luxury, which again, is fine, but then it's not just a case of "I make $200/hr and house cleaning costs $30/hr, so I come out ahead".

We're back to MMM's whole point, which is to really think about what we're willing to spend on, and what it really means for our lives long term.

His whole thing about truly understanding the value of not spending vs making more, and the downline impacts in life was really powerful for me because I had the option at the time to just make tons and tons of money.

Instead, I focused on being happy living frugally, which saved my life when my career was cut short due to health issues.

Had I focused on the income side, and not the frugality side, the loss of my income would have been devastating. Instead, because our focus was on building our best frugal life, it made virtually no difference to our day to day lives.

I didn't suddenly have to learn how to cook, clean, do home repairs, cut my poodle's hair, detail my own car, repair my own bikes, repair my own clothes, cut my own hair, shop for quality used items, go without expensive Beauty supplies, socialize without spending money, etc, etc

We didn't have to give anything up, we already knew how to be happy on less. We didn't have to suddenly learn how to.

Thank You @Arbitrage and @Malcat for explaining this better than I could. I see outsourcing in my life as usually being a result of poor planning or last-minute decisions. For example, last month I outsourced my bathroom flooring job that I could have done myself but didn't have time. If I had known last November that I was going to put the house on the market this spring I would have done the flooring when I was off work for Thanksgiving.  I thought very hard about doing the flooring myself but ultimately we decided that getting the house on the market sooner would be the wiser decision.  We did save a bit of money because my husband pulled the stool himself so we wouldn't have to hire a plumber.

[Imma]

Secondly, you need to use your marginal tax rate, plus any extra expenses from working a la YMOYL, to do a direct comparison.  For me, that means that savings pays close to double after federal tax, state tax, payroll taxes, etc. 

Good point, Arbitrage!

This is another great piece of wisdom that used to be quite common place in discussions but which I haven't seen brought up in years (and honestly had forgotten about): cutting your spending by a dollar makes a much bigger impact than earning an extra dollar, particularly for high income people with high marginal tax rates.

Agreed.

This is particularly important in the outsourcing debate, because if someone is legitimately making more money because they are outsourcing, which is very possible in some fields, then are these people prepared to stop all outsourcing once they retire?

Because otherwise the calculus needs to account for the additional savings needs to cover ongoing outsourcing when it's no longer causing a net gain.

Is someone who doesn't scrub their own toilet, mow their own lawn, patch their own drywall, tailor their own clothes, and groom their own pet suddenly going to start, and will they enjoy a life where they have to do all of those tasks?

If the outsourcing stops being in the service of increasing an income, then it's just a luxury, which again, is fine, but then it's not just a case of "I make $200/hr and house cleaning costs $30/hr, so I come out ahead".

We're back to MMM's whole point, which is to really think about what we're willing to spend on, and what it really means for our lives long term.

His whole thing about truly understanding the value of not spending vs making more, and the downline impacts in life was really powerful for me because I had the option at the time to just make tons and tons of money.

Instead, I focused on being happy living frugally, which saved my life when my career was cut short due to health issues.

Had I focused on the income side, and not the frugality side, the loss of my income would have been devastating. Instead, because our focus was on building our best frugal life, it made virtually no difference to our day to day lives.

I didn't suddenly have to learn how to cook, clean, do home repairs, cut my poodle's hair, detail my own car, repair my own bikes, repair my own clothes, cut my own hair, shop for quality used items, go without expensive Beauty supplies, socialize without spending money, etc, etc

We didn't have to give anything up, we already knew how to be happy on less. We didn't have to suddenly learn how to.

Thank You @Arbitrage and @Malcat for explaining this better than I could. I see outsourcing in my life as usually being a result of poor planning or last-minute decisions. For example, last month I outsourced my bathroom flooring job that I could have done myself but didn't have time. If I had known last November that I was going to put the house on the market this spring I would have done the flooring when I was off work for Thanksgiving.  I thought very hard about doing the flooring myself but ultimately we decided that getting the house on the market sooner would be the wiser decision.  We did save a bit of money because my husband pulled the stool himself so we wouldn't have to hire a plumber.

Like @Malcat I decided to outsource my household chores about 6 months ago due to health issues. I increased my income by about €20k by doing that (while spending €1300/year on our help because they work so extremely fast!) and my health is very slowly getting better because I do less physical tasks now and more officework. But honestly, I think by the time I can quit working I'll probably be too disabled to start doing housework again. So I think I must adapt my FIRE number sometime soon and it's going to be a forever cost. Thankfully we've been able to find a very realiable help who does perfect work. The contractor stories are very recognizable. We have a leak that needs fixed and so far all contractors we've called have refused that job, and the leak is a result of a previous contractor's sloppy work in the first place. I really wish I was physically strong enough to DIY myself. I always loved doing things like that. I love painting, and I'm lucky I can still paint a little bit at a time. It takes me ages but I get the job done eventually.  And I'm very sure that most jobs I could do better if my body wouldn't collapse after 5 minutes. 

[Morning Glory]

Secondly, you need to use your marginal tax rate, plus any extra expenses from working a la YMOYL, to do a direct comparison.  For me, that means that savings pays close to double after federal tax, state tax, payroll taxes, etc. 

Good point, Arbitrage!

This is another great piece of wisdom that used to be quite common place in discussions but which I haven't seen brought up in years (and honestly had forgotten about): cutting your spending by a dollar makes a much bigger impact than earning an extra dollar, particularly for high income people with high marginal tax rates.

Agreed.

This is particularly important in the outsourcing debate, because if someone is legitimately making more money because they are outsourcing, which is very possible in some fields, then are these people prepared to stop all outsourcing once they retire?

Because otherwise the calculus needs to account for the additional savings needs to cover ongoing outsourcing when it's no longer causing a net gain.

Is someone who doesn't scrub their own toilet, mow their own lawn, patch their own drywall, tailor their own clothes, and groom their own pet suddenly going to start, and will they enjoy a life where they have to do all of those tasks?

If the outsourcing stops being in the service of increasing an income, then it's just a luxury, which again, is fine, but then it's not just a case of "I make $200/hr and house cleaning costs $30/hr, so I come out ahead".

We're back to MMM's whole point, which is to really think about what we're willing to spend on, and what it really means for our lives long term.

His whole thing about truly understanding the value of not spending vs making more, and the downline impacts in life was really powerful for me because I had the option at the time to just make tons and tons of money.

Instead, I focused on being happy living frugally, which saved my life when my career was cut short due to health issues.

Had I focused on the income side, and not the frugality side, the loss of my income would have been devastating. Instead, because our focus was on building our best frugal life, it made virtually no difference to our day to day lives.

I didn't suddenly have to learn how to cook, clean, do home repairs, cut my poodle's hair, detail my own car, repair my own bikes, repair my own clothes, cut my own hair, shop for quality used items, go without expensive Beauty supplies, socialize without spending money, etc, etc

We didn't have to give anything up, we already knew how to be happy on less. We didn't have to suddenly learn how to.

Thank You @Arbitrage and @Malcat for explaining this better than I could. I see outsourcing in my life as usually being a result of poor planning or last-minute decisions. For example, last month I outsourced my bathroom flooring job that I could have done myself but didn't have time. If I had known last November that I was going to put the house on the market this spring I would have done the flooring when I was off work for Thanksgiving.  I thought very hard about doing the flooring myself but ultimately we decided that getting the house on the market sooner would be the wiser decision.  We did save a bit of money because my husband pulled the stool himself so we wouldn't have to hire a plumber.

Like @Malcat I decided to outsource my household chores about 6 months ago due to health issues. I increased my income by about €20k by doing that (while spending €1300/year on our help because they work so extremely fast!) and my health is very slowly getting better because I do less physical tasks now and more officework. But honestly, I think by the time I can quit working I'll probably be too disabled to start doing housework again. So I think I must adapt my FIRE number sometime soon and it's going to be a forever cost. Thankfully we've been able to find a very realiable help who does perfect work. The contractor stories are very recognizable. We have a leak that needs fixed and so far all contractors we've called have refused that job, and the leak is a result of a previous contractor's sloppy work in the first place. I really wish I was physically strong enough to DIY myself. I always loved doing things like that. I love painting, and I'm lucky I can still paint a little bit at a time. It takes me ages but I get the job done eventually.  And I'm very sure that most jobs I could do better if my body wouldn't collapse after 5 minutes.

I have the opposite problem. My mental health gets worse if I stay inside too much and don't move around. Even too much of activities I enjoy like taking classes or writing will cause me to get burned out or depressed if I look at the screen too long.  I've also had issues with upper back pain and carpal tunnel from poor ergonomics with using a laptop.  I discovered a long time ago that I am better off insourcing the physical tasks in exchange for working a bit less.   Even in my current very flexible job I notice that I feel a bit down in the evenings if I've been on zoom for most of the day or didn't get outside much.

[Metalcat]

Well, timely thread.

I just spent the afternoon reconstructing my ancient bathroom faucet handle because the plumbing in my apartment is so old and irregular, you can't just replace things. So after two trips to the plumbing store, and a bit of a franken-job, mixing and matching new and old parts, my shower faucet no longer leaks.

I have never in my life ever touched shower plumbing, this morning I had no idea what causes or how to solve a leak, but a few YouTube videos and $27 in parts and I figured it out in just a few hours.

Plus it was fun, and I now know how shower faucets work.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Not that it was advice/ideas per se, but MMM peaked when he turned down $4k/mo when a bank asked him to knock it off with the foul language.  I remember thinking, 'he's probably nuts, and his early retirement might fail, but I fucking admire him'!  There was also a great thread involving Sol about some investment house (KISS?) threatening to sue based on his inflammatory comments (imagine that!), and Pete stood behind him and didn't take the thread down...

@maizefolk I think runewell called me racist the one interaction I had.  Up 'till then, I would grab the popcorn when I came across his (her?) ridiculous demands for apologies, but then I felt its wrath...

There's been some great stuff over the years both on the blog and in the forum!

[Missy B]

Mine tags in with several points others have made (optimism, consuming less, optimizing, lack of idea diversity etc).

DH and I planned to FIRE with a less than 1 million stash and then did so, I feel like I need to caveat that with "by current MMM forum standards we are low spenders and risk takers (have a mortgage and student loan still to payoff) and apparently some kind of freaken weirdos."

I was a lurker a long time before my first post and a 1 million or less stash wasn't that unheard of, but I've gotten some interesting feedback over the years about maybe needing to rethink my plans because DOOOMMMM! 

Sorry, I can cut back my spending, yes, even more than I have now, or even make more money.  But I cannot get back time, ever.  Given that, I've prioritized.

It has made me more hesitant to post/share about the plan, I was happy with the plan and none of the feedback we were getting was constructive just gloom and doom (what if!?!?).   Maybe better to just be quiet and let the loud be heard, even if they are a pessimistic bunch that add years to the process.

Yeah, I miss the can-do attitude  of people retiring on 500K or even less, and the tales of their fierce and uncompromising baddasity. It feels like the bell curve has shifted to a lot more high-earners wanting a fat stash.
A million is a lot, even if you're retiring at 30.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

Not that it was advice/ideas per se, but MMM peaked when he turned down $4k/mo when a bank asked him to knock it off with the foul language.  I remember thinking, 'he's probably nuts, and his early retirement might fail, but I fucking admire him'!  There was also a great thread involving Sol about some investment house (KISS?) threatening to sue based on his inflammatory comments (imagine that!), and Pete stood behind him and didn't take the thread down...

@maizefolk I think runewell called me racist the one interaction I had.  Up 'till then, I would grab the popcorn when I came across his (her?) ridiculous demands for apologies, but then I felt its wrath...

There's been some great stuff over the years both on the blog and in the forum!

Sounds like obstinacy to me, and not something I particularly admire. This whole thing about 'badassity' makes no sense to me. I'm not a badass and I don't want to be. I just want a life which is moderate and reasonably optimised. I don't want to be stoic, or spartan, or over-stretch myself doing things just for the sake of challenging myself. The combination of my job plus trying to keep some semblance of work-life balance so I can spend quality time with my friends/family is challenging enough to use up almost all of my discipline and willpower.

That's not to say that MMM's philosophy is 'wrong', but that it's not the only way to go about things, and I think there are plenty fo valid reasons to reject stoicism and frugality for its own sake. Ensuring that your wants and desires are moderate, however (which I don't think is 'frugal' as such, just moderate) is a good way to reduce complexity in one's life.

[LonerMatt]

The dominant ideas that I remember from when I started browsing ERE and MMM back in 2009/2010 were:

- Focus on savings through frugality and DIY, anticonsumerism is the easiest path to freedom (frugality is a muscle thinking)
- Increasing salary is nice but unnecessary
- Wealth is having the ability to do more with less, not just having a lot of $$$$ in investments
- Let's be skeptical about wealth and riches, there's a cost to keeping up with the jonses
- Community and participation with friends/family is central to a good life: build up what's around you
- Connect how you feel fulfilled and how that increases your quality of life, frugality or occasional income to make these things as sustainable as possible

I took a few years' hiatus and when I got back it seemed to me that the dominant thinking was basically:

- How can I get richer without making many (any?) sacrifices
- What stocks are hot?
- Wealth is best, why are the poors so average/bad/why can't they just shut up? (I really feel the lack of posters earning <$50k a year but becoming much more independent and financially free, that's really been lost IMO)
- How can I get mine, who cares if you get yours?
- I know that my habit to buy a nice car/go on eye bleedingly expensive holidays/pay for stuff that's ludicrous that I could easily do myself is bad, but I don't want to hear about it from YOU


I guess a general move away from needing less and being more free to wanting more and accepting it. I think that's a shame. Certainly I'm no exception (though I make less money by the standards here I'd wager).

[Metalcat]

Not that it was advice/ideas per se, but MMM peaked when he turned down $4k/mo when a bank asked him to knock it off with the foul language.  I remember thinking, 'he's probably nuts, and his early retirement might fail, but I fucking admire him'!  There was also a great thread involving Sol about some investment house (KISS?) threatening to sue based on his inflammatory comments (imagine that!), and Pete stood behind him and didn't take the thread down...

@maizefolk I think runewell called me racist the one interaction I had.  Up 'till then, I would grab the popcorn when I came across his (her?) ridiculous demands for apologies, but then I felt its wrath...

There's been some great stuff over the years both on the blog and in the forum!

Sounds like obstinacy to me, and not something I particularly admire. This whole thing about 'badassity' makes no sense to me. I'm not a badass and I don't want to be. I just want a life which is moderate and reasonably optimised. I don't want to be stoic, or spartan, or over-stretch myself doing things just for the sake of challenging myself. The combination of my job plus trying to keep some semblance of work-life balance so I can spend quality time with my friends/family is challenging enough to use up almost all of my discipline and willpower.

That's not to say that MMM's philosophy is 'wrong', but that it's not the only way to go about things, and I think there are plenty fo valid reasons to reject stoicism and frugality for its own sake. Ensuring that your wants and desires are moderate, however (which I don't think is 'frugal' as such, just moderate) is a good way to reduce complexity in one's life.

Again, you totally miss the point, I sometimes wonder if you do it on purpose.

The point is not to be extreme, the point is to not be wasteful.

If your life is already at your optimal balance of spending and benefit, then great, good for you, you don't need to push yourself any further. You ARE already a mustachian badass. You ARE already the thing you constantly backlash against.

The concept of being "badass" is targeted at people who are actively being wasteful, who are spending far more than they need to to sustain their quality of life, who have tons of debt, and have no choice but to retire well into their 60s or 70s.

It's to appeal to people who have lost control over their lives and want to feel like they can nut up and grab their financial life by the horns.

Do you really not grasp that most people are out there spending themselves into and early grave with stress? 

MMM shared his personal approach to cutting expenses as examples of the *kind* of things that people could do and the *kind* of excuses they make not to.

I have heard my entire life to never mess with plumbing. I was always good with tools, and always liked home projects, but I solemnly knew to never touch plumbing.

That is, until I came here and learned that most basic plumbing jobs are so easy that a teenager could do it.

I learned to question the things that I *knew* I should be spending on, it make me research first, spend second. To never spend just be sure that's what everyone else does.

You make it sound like the world is filled with reasonable, moderate spending folks, and that MMM is pushing everyone to do extreme things to save a few extra dollars a month.

What universe do you live in?

MMM is in the US, his audience is in debt up to their eyeballs and morbidly obese. They're highly likely to DIE before they ever get a chance to retire from their megacorp jobs that they hate.

He's not preaching anything extreme, he's preaching COMMON SENSE.

You don't like him criticizing clown cars, but most of the people he's trying to reach legitimately cannot afford the ridiculous cars they are driving. You can, and you value your car(s), that's cool. 

He's not targeting you. You are not the audience he is trying to reach.

I'm very, very happy for you that you make boat loads of money doing a job that you enjoy and that you keep your spending very reasonable, and can readily afford the luxuries that you value.

As I said, you are already a badass mustachian.

You don't need to push back because you were never the target.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

I don't think the car is wasteful either; that's an easily justified indulgence at the end of the day, similar to another person's expensive mountain bike. But I recognise there are areas of my life of genuine waste/non-optimisation - e.g. I pay too much for take out (which is not healthy, and also more expensive than cooking); I haven't called my bank manager for an interest rate review in months simply because I'm lazy and can't be bothered. I'm bleeding money in that sense. I accept that I'm not perfect and there are limits to optimisation.

But the way you phrase it Malcat, in terms of finding a balance between effort and reward, and being optimal in moderation, is something that I (or anyone) could hardly object to. If that's the "MMM philosophy" then I think almost everyone would have to agree with you. But the gist I get from reading this thread is that the MMM philosophy has an objective slant towards minimalism. And minimalism is one method, but not the only method, of optimisation/efficiency. Minimalism works for some people and not for others.

[Jenny Wren]

Sounds like obstinacy to me, and not something I particularly admire. This whole thing about 'badassity' makes no sense to me. I'm not a badass and I don't want to be. I just want a life which is moderate and reasonably optimised. I don't want to be stoic, or spartan, or over-stretch myself doing things just for the sake of challenging myself. The combination of my job plus trying to keep some semblance of work-life balance so I can spend quality time with my friends/family is challenging enough to use up almost all of my discipline and willpower.

That's not to say that MMM's philosophy is 'wrong', but that it's not the only way to go about things, and I think there are plenty fo valid reasons to reject stoicism and frugality for its own sake. Ensuring that your wants and desires are moderate, however (which I don't think is 'frugal' as such, just moderate) is a good way to reduce complexity in one's life.

If you don't admire the MMM philosophy and think there are good reasons to reject it's basic tenets, then why be on a forum that was created for those that follow that philosophy? To stir the pot?

- Wealth is best, why are the poors so average/bad/why can't they just shut up? (I really feel the lack of posters earning <$50k a year but becoming much more independent and financially free, that's really been lost IMO)

The low earners are still here and still chipping away at FI, it's just that the low earners no longer advertise their income due to the overall disdain that you have noticed.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

For example, look at LonerMatt's post just above. Both the approaches he lists could be said to be optimal/"badass" using Malcat's definition, but the former seems to be more 'pure Mustachian'.

If you don't admire the MMM philosophy and think there are good reasons to reject it's basic tenets, then why be on a forum that was created for those that follow that philosophy? To stir the pot?

This is the only forum I have found that has intelligent people who tolerate robust discussion about any topic. This forum is also admirably free of groupthink.

[nereo]

So why are you here @Bloop Bloop Reloaded ?
And more pertinent to this thread - what about advice/ideas from the early days do you actually miss? 

You have outlined in detail what of MMM’s posts you disagree with, but I’m still fuzzy about what you actually support.

[maizefolk]

Really appreciate the post LonerMatt. I remember reading some of your posts (maybe it was on ERE) right when I was just starting out.

Was particularly interested in this one:

- Community and participation with friends/family is central to a good life: build up what's around you

I hadn't remembered it until you said something, but wasn't there a fair bit of emphasis early on on the ideal of finding a "tribe"? I thought I remembered hearing the term from either journals or posts early on. In googling I did find one blog post from Mr. Money Mustache on a value of a tribe of interconnected friends and living close enough to have spontaneous social interactions but it was from a bit later, in 2015.

[Metalcat]

I don't think the car is wasteful either; that's an easily justified indulgence at the end of the day, similar to another person's expensive mountain bike. But I recognise there are areas of my life of genuine waste/non-optimisation - e.g. I pay too much for take out (which is not healthy, and also more expensive than cooking); I haven't called my bank manager for an interest rate review in months simply because I'm lazy and can't be bothered. I'm bleeding money in that sense. I accept that I'm not perfect and there are limits to optimisation.

But the way you phrase it Malcat, in terms of finding a balance between effort and reward, and being optimal in moderation, is something that I (or anyone) could hardly object to. If that's the "MMM philosophy" then I think almost everyone would have to agree with you. But the gist I get from reading this thread is that the MMM philosophy has an objective slant towards minimalism. And minimalism is one method, but not the only method, of optimisation/efficiency. Minimalism works for some people and not for others.

MMM is not a minimalist.

He rants and raves about facepunches and biking, but he is also very clear that he's not a minimalist, that he spends on plenty of luxuries, he has a bigger house than he needs, etc, etc.

He's very clear that his priorities are just that, his priorities, but his life is the prime example he has to make his point. But his point is very clear and unambiguous, and it's all about optimizing, not depriving. He repeats that so many times, I'm shocked you don't see that as his main message.

Sure, some people on the forums misrepresent him, like the person who said that he's against outsourcing anything, and people who say it's about minimalism, but whatever, who cares.

When posters here challenge people it's to get them to think, to get them to consider more frugal options. That's all. It's an intellectual exercise, it's a learning process.

But the message isn't and never has been to live a certain way. It has always been to CONSIDER living certain ways to see if you would actually prefer it, because you might be pleasantly surprised.

The only specific agenda MMM has ever stated is his hope that his financial advice also produces environmental benefits. That's the closest he gets to saying "you should live a certain way".

Otherwise, it's entirely up to the individual to define their own version of their optimal life, MMM doesn't give a shit what that actually looks like. You do you.

[Metalcat]

For example, look at LonerMatt's post just above. Both the approaches he lists could be said to be optimal/"badass" using Malcat's definition, but the former seems to be more 'pure Mustachian'.

If you don't admire the MMM philosophy and think there are good reasons to reject it's basic tenets, then why be on a forum that was created for those that follow that philosophy? To stir the pot?

This is the only forum I have found that has intelligent people who tolerate robust discussion about any topic. This forum is also admirably free of groupthink.

Nonsense, he explained a difference he noticed.

Also, as has been noted, there has been a lot of discussion lost on the benefits of saving vs earning more.

MMM has some excellent analysis of the benefits of not just focusing on earning more. Again, the default in society is to assume that more earning is always better, but it's actually worthwhile to analyse where you get more benefit, from earning more or from saving more.

That requires counter-cultural thinking and actually running the numbers in order to make responsible decisions.

That very valid analysis has really fallen by the wayside here as the typical target retirement spend has skyrocketed into 6 figures. There's no point in talking about the savings side at that point. So a very useful trend of conversation is lost, which is too bad.

Society is already telling everyone to make as much money as possible, this was a place that was saying "hey, consider the alternative".

Again, you seem hell bent on seeing the bad. Why don't you take a break from trying to see the message in a bad way and try to look for the interpretation that is actually beneficial for you.

Because you and I are similar professionals with similar spending values, and I have NEVER felt the issues that you bring up constantly. I have felt that individual perspectives don't apply to me, and that MMM and I have different priorities and lifestyles, but never, ever have I felt the need to push back against mustachianism itself the way you do.

I really think most of your concerns are in your head, you are inventing something to rail against that just isn't there.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

Perhaps what I am 'railing against' is the interpretation of MMM's ethos as being minimalist and objectively frugal as opposed to your interpretation of it which is to optimise one's spending and earning choices. As you can see from the posts directly above, there are definitely people whose take-away from MMM's posts is different from your take-away. And when I read MMM's blog posts - especially the earlier ones - I definitely get a minimalist vibe tending towards self-reliance and DIY. Which is fine. Just not for me. I'm not a DIY person at all. And no, I don't get the sense that MMM is just saying "this is my example, and can't be universalised". He does universalise.

For example, from his Outsourcing post:

A self-sufficient insourcer thinks about his kitchen design, his garden design, and his car project, and decides which is most important to him. He schedules his time and works through the projects one at a time, savoring the results as they are produced.  To an outside observer, they both get to the same place in the end, but the Insourcer has the added benefits of a deep satisfaction and a broad Money Mustache, while the Outsourcer simply has a higher outstanding loan balance to his creditors.

All of this will seem obvious to the most Oldschool Mustachians among us. But I can see the Outsourcing bug growing among the general populace, as the habits of the rich continue to trickle down to the middle class. To me, it’s an easy decision for those seeking lifetime independence in both the mental and financial senses – you should broaden, rather than narrowing, the range of your daily work.

A line like "the Outsourcer simply has a higher outstanding loan balance to his creditors" is not very nuanced is it. It assumes outsourcing has to come at a monetary cost that can't be recouped elsewhere. The paragraph is also rather 'able-ist'. As someone with a bad back, I have no desire to do my own renovations. I'm also clumsy. I'm a lot happier spending my spare time with friends, with family or at a resort, frankly. I don't think I have to do DIY to achieve independence.

What I would agree with is that it's good to broaden, rather than narrow, the range of your daily pursuits. For example, I have a range of recreational interests which also take mental and physical energy which I gladly partake in.

[Morning Glory]

Bloop, saying that's ableist is whataboutism. Most people are capable of doing most DIY, and nobody is saying that you shouldn't outsource things that you physically can't do. Now I'm going to whatabout back at you and say that my income is too low to reach financial independence as a homeowner if I don't DIY. Most people have incomes closer to mine than yours (actually lower than both of ours, if you look at the averages) and simply can't afford the luxury of paying someone to mow the lawn or paint.  By the way, I will have a good laugh if someone calls out the use of "whatabout" as a verb in the "words I hate" thread.

 There are also ways to barter skills or other services, rather than just throwing money at things. We have a friend who has fixed our furnace for free a couple times because we let him stay with us for a while a few years ago and still let him keep his motorcycle here and use our Costco membership.  I can't believe nobody has mentioned bartering or using social capital to complete jobs they can't do as an alternative to paying someone, or maybe I missed it.  Here's another example: My grandpa used to get free cookies from his job. His neighbors were an electrician and a plumber. He paid them in cookies. There's lots of examples like these on the forums, just not in this thread. Why pay a kennel when you can trade pet sitting with a neighbor, for example. That's what our parents did.

Now I'm going to whatabout back at you and say that my income is too low to reach financial independence as a homeowner if I don't DIY. Most people have incomes closer to mine than yours (actually lower than both of ours, if you look at the averages) and simply can't afford the luxury of paying someone to mow their lawn. 

[Metalcat]

Perhaps what I am 'railing against' is the interpretation of MMM's ethos as being minimalist and objectively frugal as opposed to your interpretation of it which is to optimise one's spending and earning choices. As you can see from the posts directly above, there are definitely people whose take-away from MMM's posts is different from your take-away. And when I read MMM's blog posts - especially the earlier ones - I definitely get a minimalist vibe tending towards self-reliance and DIY. Which is fine. Just not for me. I'm not a DIY person at all. And no, I don't get the sense that MMM is just saying "this is my example, and can't be universalised". He does universalise.

For example, from his Outsourcing post:

A self-sufficient insourcer thinks about his kitchen design, his garden design, and his car project, and decides which is most important to him. He schedules his time and works through the projects one at a time, savoring the results as they are produced.  To an outside observer, they both get to the same place in the end, but the Insourcer has the added benefits of a deep satisfaction and a broad Money Mustache, while the Outsourcer simply has a higher outstanding loan balance to his creditors.

All of this will seem obvious to the most Oldschool Mustachians among us. But I can see the Outsourcing bug growing among the general populace, as the habits of the rich continue to trickle down to the middle class. To me, it’s an easy decision for those seeking lifetime independence in both the mental and financial senses – you should broaden, rather than narrowing, the range of your daily work.

A line like "the Outsourcer simply has a higher outstanding loan balance to his creditors" is not very nuanced is it. It assumes outsourcing has to come at a monetary cost that can't be recouped elsewhere. The paragraph is also rather 'able-ist'. As someone with a bad back, I have no desire to do my own renovations. I'm also clumsy. I'm a lot happier spending my spare time with friends, with family or at a resort, frankly. I don't think I have to do DIY to achieve independence.

What I would agree with is that it's good to broaden, rather than narrow, the range of your daily pursuits. For example, I have a range of recreational interests which also take mental and physical energy which I gladly partake in.

Dude, if you are determined to look for what you don't like in the message, I can't stop you.

I'm just telling you my perspective, which is that being in a nearly identical situation to your, I found nothing to get bent out of shape about like you do.

[ice_beard]

Man, this thread makes me think of the forums I wasted hundreds if not thousands of hours reading, learning and communicating with others who shared my interests.  RIP Telemarktips and SuperTopo.

I wasn't really around in the early days but my early days after finding MMM about five years ago was very eye opening.  And I know the feeling of watching an online community take a turn for the worse.  It's part of the lifespan of a forum unfortunately.  Especially one that focuses on retiring early.     

[Serendip]

The dominant ideas that I remember from when I started browsing ERE and MMM back in 2009/2010 were:

- Focus on savings through frugality and DIY, anticonsumerism is the easiest path to freedom (frugality is a muscle thinking)
- Increasing salary is nice but unnecessary
- Wealth is having the ability to do more with less, not just having a lot of $$$$ in investments
- Let's be skeptical about wealth and riches, there's a cost to keeping up with the jonses
- Community and participation with friends/family is central to a good life: build up what's around you
- Connect how you feel fulfilled and how that increases your quality of life, frugality or occasional income to make these things as sustainable as possible
.......

I guess a general move away from needing less and being more free to wanting more and accepting it. I think that's a shame. Certainly I'm no exception (though I make less money by the standards here I'd wager).

Thanks for this list @LonerMatt --these are the things I remember too.
I came to MMM from the ERE site and initially thought it was quite moderate compared to Jacob's approach (rice & lentils 5x/week!!) :)
Lurked for many years before venturing to post.

I loved how creative people were being with the (limited) resources they had access to.

It felt doable for me. I'm low income but live a very rich & satisfying life however it's slightly intimidating joining many of the threads. Some people want to save $100,000 in a year-- I haven't even hit that as my net worth yet, ha

Collectively these books, blogs & forums helped me get out of a mountain of student loan debt and get on track to have peace of mind financially. Plus, over the year I've been able to send financially-troubled friends to the blog as a way to share inspiration (ERE didn't capture their imaginations as easily as MMM was able to)

Plus, bikes! badassery! curiosity! challenging yourself! I still gain so much value from many people who post and contribute here.
 

[lutorm]

This sounds ridiculous as I'm writing it, but MMM was the first place I remember reading the idea that "your spending should not be tied to your income." Even though I've always been fairly frugal, I had never intellectually challenged the conventional wisdom that "you should save 20% of your income". If you make more, obviously you should spend more. This was such an eye opener for me.

Having started grad school late (by US standards), taken for frigging ever to get my PhD, and then worked for 8 years for postdoc salary, the idea of retiring, even at normal age, had always seemed like a fantasy to me given how behind I was on my lifetime income compared to people I grew up with. Luckily I found out about MMM at approximately the same time I left academia, and started making real money, so our lifestyle never crept up much from dual-academic salary levels. 8 years later we are FI.

I suck at being frugal, if by being frugal you mean wasting time to save money, especially with time being more precious than money at this point. But I very much subscribe to the philosophy of stoicism and the idea of the "hedonic treadmill" and that spending more money on stuff doesn't more than momentarily blip your happiness up.

So I guess those are the two things I'd pick:

• your spending has nothing to do with your income
• stoicism

They really were life changing for me.