Author Topic: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?  (Read 16933 times)

maizefolk

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What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« on: May 04, 2021, 07:03:41 AM »
This came up in another thread, and my answer was hedonic adaptation. When we talk about budgeting these days it is generally framed in terms of trade off between spending and FIRE date, but it is quite rare to see anyone bring up that many types of spending feel good for a short while and then leave you reverting to your original happiness level but with a higher "baseline" spending number.

What concepts do you folks remember from the early days of the blog or forum that seem to have fallen out of style since?

bloodaxe

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2021, 07:13:55 AM »
Riding a bike is now often considered "extreme".

Seems like everyone has an excuse not to ride a bicycle for transportation now. When someone suggests riding a bike for transportation, the 60 mile round trip supercommuters come out of the woodwork.

I was once flamed for suggesting that Americans would lose weight if we rode bikes instead of driving so much.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 07:15:34 AM by bloodaxe »

Zikoris

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2021, 09:07:02 AM »
People even having their consumption level on the radar, not in a financial sense, but in a "hey, we're going to all die if we keep consuming resources like this." The idea that even if you're rich, you still shouldn't live in a way that destroys the planet, even if you're "mindful" and "conscious" about it.

nereo

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2021, 11:47:31 AM »

What concepts do you folks remember from the early days of the blog or forum that seem to have fallen out of style since?

Rigorous mathematical analyses of poster's plans.  "Back in the day" there were a number of posters who would do killer evaluations of a person's spending, taxes, WR, etc.  It could get quite detailed, particularly with taxes. Likewise, retirement models would go into details including SS payments, spread between iterations, and how much each given year of additional work might change things.  Often it was super useful to highlight the benefit (or futility) of OMY, or how little SS mattered if you were retiring before age 45 (not because you wouldn't get it, but because it wouldn't change your FI number one iota), etc. 

Nowadays the most "math" we normally see is (spending / assets) = WR.  as in:  You spend $38k/year and you've got about 1.5MM in assets, so your   WR is 2.5%  You should be golden! FireCalc says that's a 100% Success Rate!

I also miss the DIY vibe.  At one point ~1/3 of MMM's posts were about DIY projects, and it was encouraged a lot more. A lot of them were experimental, engineering type ventures (like MMM's quasi-failed "poor man's geothermal")  Now people spend a lot of time justifying outsourcing of manual labor based on billable hours and free-time enjoyment and other such things.  That wasn't the reason we were so DIY gung-ho.  I think that spirit has largely evaporated.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2021, 11:57:07 AM »
Hedonic adaptation is an important concept, but it's easy to over-invoke. For example, living frugally can mean that you forego certain comforts, conveniences and mental indulgences that would are not part of the hedonic treadmill but that simply make your life easier, more comfortable, and less stressful. So I would be careful to distinguish between a hedonic treadmill (Toyota Camry --> BMW 3 series --> Rolls Royce) and a genuine 'upgrading' of comfort (walking places --> biking places --> biking for short distance and Ubering everywhere else, and foregoing a car entirely).

I think it is also really important to focus on the value of time. If you earn large multiples what it costs to hire a driver, cleaner, courier etc, then it makes little sense to do those tasks yourself unless you like doing them. This is something I don't see MMM talk about much but I wish he did more. Particularly now with how cheap contracting work is/the gig economy, it makes sense to outsource via gig apps where desirable. Again, not hedonic treadmill. You are purchasing time.

Zikoris

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2021, 12:02:50 PM »
I think it is also really important to focus on the value of time. If you earn large multiples what it costs to hire a driver, cleaner, courier etc, then it makes little sense to do those tasks yourself unless you like doing them. This is something I don't see MMM talk about much but I wish he did more. Particularly now with how cheap contracting work is/the gig economy, it makes sense to outsource via gig apps where desirable. Again, not hedonic treadmill. You are purchasing time.

He doesn't talk about that stuff because it's literally the opposite of the philosophy he espouses.

Jenny Wren

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2021, 12:03:35 PM »
The DIY and non-traditional means mentality. Even the blog posts have moved away from that a lot of the time. Anymore, it's assumed that everyone has tons of income that they optimize by throwing at problems in the cheapest way possible. It's not uncommon to see derision for those that either a) go out of their way to DIY an out of the box solution, or b) want to optimize lower incomes without wanting to sacrifice quality of life by working more hours at a high paying job. I don't know, it just feels like this is now the place to justify hiring a housecleaner and talk about how well you are doing as a real estate mogul, kinda like a more edgy version of Bogleheads. I guess even Xers and Millennials eventually become NIMBY Boomers, eh? (I kid, I kid...)

I also hate the whole "but we are buying time by throwing money at it" argument that has infiltrated the entire FI movement (not just here on MMM). Yeah right. Most aren't buying time, they are buying convenience. Unless you are actually using that time to generate more income, the buying time argument is just a face punchable excuse. Most are buying time to enjoy hedonic adapation pursuits that really don't add much enjoyment or value to their lives but are easy, like watching more Netflix or going out to restaurants.


* This doesn't apply to everyone, there are tons of posters I adore or at least respect, and I still get a ton of value here or I wouldn't keep coming back. It's just been an overall cultural shift over the last few years. Perhaps it was inevitable, as many of the original posters moved on from FIRE planning to post-FIRE luxury.

Metalcat

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2021, 12:06:34 PM »
Hedonic adaptation is an important concept, but it's easy to over-invoke. For example, living frugally can mean that you forego certain comforts, conveniences and mental indulgences that would are not part of the hedonic treadmill but that simply make your life easier, more comfortable, and less stressful. So I would be careful to distinguish between a hedonic treadmill (Toyota Camry --> BMW 3 series --> Rolls Royce) and a genuine 'upgrading' of comfort (walking places --> biking places --> biking for short distance and Ubering everywhere else, and foregoing a car entirely).

I think it is also really important to focus on the value of time. If you earn large multiples what it costs to hire a driver, cleaner, courier etc, then it makes little sense to do those tasks yourself unless you like doing them. This is something I don't see MMM talk about much but I wish he did more. Particularly now with how cheap contracting work is/the gig economy, it makes sense to outsource via gig apps where desirable. Again, not hedonic treadmill. You are purchasing time.

He did specifically address outsourcing, and I read it when I was making a massive hourly wage, and it really helped me put outsourcing into perspective.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2021, 12:12:57 PM »
I think it is also really important to focus on the value of time. If you earn large multiples what it costs to hire a driver, cleaner, courier etc, then it makes little sense to do those tasks yourself unless you like doing them. This is something I don't see MMM talk about much but I wish he did more. Particularly now with how cheap contracting work is/the gig economy, it makes sense to outsource via gig apps where desirable. Again, not hedonic treadmill. You are purchasing time.

He doesn't talk about that stuff because it's literally the opposite of the philosophy he espouses.

Yeah, and I disagree with it entirely. I find it patronising. This is what he says:

Quote
Mr. Money Mustache does not outsource ANYTHING*. He believes it is more fun to go through life as a producer rather than a consumer, and while the Monetary Implications of this are secondary to the Life Satisfaction Implications, the money part of it is still HUGE.

Taken to its extreme, you should not ever hire a babysitter, use a plumber, drive a car, or have dinner at a restaurant.

Now if that is the life you want then go for it. It's not the life I want. There are some things I like to outsource and certain things (like after-school education, reading time and time with my future kids) I would not dream of outsourcing. Point is, each person needs to make his or her own choices.

The MMM stance on DIY etc also assumes a lot of people, i.e. that they are able-bodied, that they are capable of physical exertion, etc and again I find that assumption troubling.

I would leave it at 'do what combination of money/time/utility works for you'. MMM has his own schtick and it gets page hits.

Metalcat

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2021, 12:22:35 PM »
I think it is also really important to focus on the value of time. If you earn large multiples what it costs to hire a driver, cleaner, courier etc, then it makes little sense to do those tasks yourself unless you like doing them. This is something I don't see MMM talk about much but I wish he did more. Particularly now with how cheap contracting work is/the gig economy, it makes sense to outsource via gig apps where desirable. Again, not hedonic treadmill. You are purchasing time.

He doesn't talk about that stuff because it's literally the opposite of the philosophy he espouses.

Yeah, and I disagree with it entirely. I find it patronising. This is what he says:

Quote
Mr. Money Mustache does not outsource ANYTHING*. He believes it is more fun to go through life as a producer rather than a consumer, and while the Monetary Implications of this are secondary to the Life Satisfaction Implications, the money part of it is still HUGE.

Taken to its extreme, you should not ever hire a babysitter, use a plumber, drive a car, or have dinner at a restaurant.

Now if that is the life you want then go for it. It's not the life I want. There are some things I like to outsource and certain things (like after-school education, reading time and time with my future kids) I would not dream of outsourcing. Point is, each person needs to make his or her own choices.

The MMM stance on DIY etc also assumes a lot of people, i.e. that they are able-bodied, that they are capable of physical exertion, etc and again I find that assumption troubling.

I would leave it at 'do what combination of money/time/utility works for you'. MMM has his own schtick and it gets page hits.

His take on it is actually much more nuanced than that.

Yes, his stance is to criticize the generally accepted wisdom that as long as you make enough that outsourcing is affordable, but that doesn't mean he's dogmatic or one sided in his perspective.

I don't agree with everything he says, but I often find that you cast him as promoting a message that he just doesn't. At least not from what I've read.

Challenging the validity of common behaviours and their justifications isn't the same as insisting that everyone do what he does.

Morning Glory

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2021, 12:38:52 PM »
Riding a bike is now often considered "extreme".

Seems like everyone has an excuse not to ride a bicycle for transportation now. When someone suggests riding a bike for transportation, the 60 mile round trip supercommuters come out of the woodwork.

I was once flamed for suggesting that Americans would lose weight if we rode bikes instead of driving so much.

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.  I also know that it's not nice to feel excluded and it's only natural to let people know that you are feeling that way (for example, a person who had a medical reason for needing pedicures spoke up in the nail salon thread). I still don't think one should be held to the standard of having to worry about possibly excluding someone before they make a suggestion though.

I miss the optimism. I haven't been on the forum as long as some of you all but it seems like people have gotten more pessimistic.  I know there are still people on here who retired on a 4% WR and figured that they could get a part time job if they needed to. Lots of us here still have average incomes and live frugally too.



maizefolk

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2021, 12:51:11 PM »
I miss the optimism. I haven't been on the forum as long as some of you all but it seems like people have gotten more pessimistic.  I know there are still people on here who retired on a 4% WR and figured that they could get a part time job if they needed to. Lots of us here still have average incomes and live frugally too.

Huh. Yes I wouldn't have put my finger on it until you said so, but I think you are right that the mood was much more optimistic in the past. Although I feel like society as a whole, or at least the particular slices of society slices I am exposed to/interact with, have gotten more pessimistic in the last decade.

Perhaps part of the shift is explained by a lot of those optimistic folks hitting 25x expenses (or the more complicated and detailed numbers specified by their own math) retiring, and dropping out of participating as much in the forum? Lots of folks are active during the accumulation phase, but then in actual FIRE people start pursuing their own interests and living their best lives and, understandable, are going to be less interested in a forum focused on discussing how to get to where they already are.

Metalcat

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2021, 12:56:01 PM »
I miss the optimism. I haven't been on the forum as long as some of you all but it seems like people have gotten more pessimistic.  I know there are still people on here who retired on a 4% WR and figured that they could get a part time job if they needed to. Lots of us here still have average incomes and live frugally too.

Huh. Yes I wouldn't have put my finger on it until you said so, but I think you are right that the mood was much more optimistic in the past. Although I feel like society as a whole, or at least the particular slices of society slices I am exposed to/interact with, have gotten more pessimistic in the last decade.

Perhaps part of the shift is explained by a lot of those optimistic folks hitting 25x expenses (or the more complicated and detailed numbers specified by their own math) retiring, and dropping out of participating as much in the forum? Lots of folks are active during the accumulation phase, but then in actual FIRE people start pursuing their own interests and living their best lives and, understandable, are going to be less interested in a forum focused on discussing how to get to where they already are.

I too find the pessimism pretty rampant.

And yes, I think that the general absence of retired happy voices is a big part of that.

maizefolk

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2021, 01:00:02 PM »
Another one that occurred to me, somewhat connected to the outsourcing argument, was that early on there was a lot of emphasis on weightlifting/physical fitness* as something that directly contributed to happiness. It wasn't unique to MMM, I remember learning about kettlebells for the first time from an ERE post.

Having been both in shape and out of shape over the years, I can certainly vouch for just feeling better and happier (and less tired all the time) when I was taking care of my body.

*Standard disclaimer that these aren't things that are possible or practical for everyone.

debbie does duncan

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2021, 01:00:57 PM »
I miss the face -punching. Srsy if you spend too much....you deserve the "face punch".

tipster350

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2021, 01:07:33 PM »
Another one that occurred to me, somewhat connected to the outsourcing argument, was that early on there was a lot of emphasis on weightlifting/physical fitness* as something that directly contributed to happiness. It wasn't unique to MMM, I remember learning about kettlebells for the first time from an ERE post.

Having been both in shape and out of shape over the years, I can certainly vouch for just feeling better and happier (and less tired all the time) when I was taking care of my body.

*Standard disclaimer that these aren't things that are possible or practical for everyone.

I was just about to tell you that I am insulted because I am 99 years old and wheelchair-bound, and not able to use kettlebells.

tipster350

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 01:17:10 PM »
People even having their consumption level on the radar, not in a financial sense, but in a "hey, we're going to all die if we keep consuming resources like this." The idea that even if you're rich, you still shouldn't live in a way that destroys the planet, even if you're "mindful" and "conscious" about it.

I miss this, too. I see little to no discussion about living lightly on the Earth, even when you can afford not to.

DadJokes

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 01:42:11 PM »
Well, I can't say that I was in the community or aware of MMM in the "early days." If I had been, then I would probably be FI by now and wouldn't be spending my time in these forums, but...

I read the blogs for a while before I ventured over to the forum. Something that I loved about the blogs was that they focused on what was in our circle of control. Here, it feels like a rare day when a post doesn't find a way to turn into people arguing about things that are outside of our circle of control (namely: politics).

maizefolk

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2021, 02:00:38 PM »
I read the blogs for a while before I ventured over to the forum. Something that I loved about the blogs was that they focused on what was in our circle of control. Here, it feels like a rare day when a post doesn't find a way to turn into people arguing about things that are outside of our circle of control (namely: politics).

Circle of control! That's another good one. Again speaking only from my own personal experience a low information diet (MMM post from back 2013) when it comes to things outside my circle of control did wonders for peace of mind and life satisfaction.

CodingHare

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2021, 02:05:59 PM »
... Something that I loved about the blogs was that they focused on what was in our circle of control. Here, it feels like a rare day when a post doesn't find a way to turn into people arguing about things that are outside of our circle of control (namely: politics).

That's something I'm trying to do better on myself!  Focusing less on arguing with people on the internet.  (Or worse, passively reading slapfights on the internet.)  I try to keep politically active, but most real political change comes from donations, calling your reps, and voting, not circling the same internet arguments over and over.

I got into MMM right as I hit the workforce.  I loved biking to work and this blog gave me the push--although that I'm full time remote my bike is less used.  :) 

Jenny Wren

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2021, 02:16:32 PM »
I read the blogs for a while before I ventured over to the forum. Something that I loved about the blogs was that they focused on what was in our circle of control. Here, it feels like a rare day when a post doesn't find a way to turn into people arguing about things that are outside of our circle of control (namely: politics).

Circle of control! That's another good one. Again speaking only from my own personal experience a low information diet (MMM post from back 2013) when it comes to things outside my circle of control did wonders for peace of mind and life satisfaction.

Thank you for (both) of these posts. They are the reminder (face punch?) I needed today. Going back to reread that blog post, too. I think it was one of the first that lead me to MMM.

mm1970

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2021, 02:19:07 PM »
Riding a bike is now often considered "extreme".

Seems like everyone has an excuse not to ride a bicycle for transportation now. When someone suggests riding a bike for transportation, the 60 mile round trip supercommuters come out of the woodwork.

I was once flamed for suggesting that Americans would lose weight if we rode bikes instead of driving so much.
Are people actually going places now?

FiveSigmas

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2021, 03:10:14 PM »
His take on it is actually much more nuanced than that.

Yes, his stance is to criticize the generally accepted wisdom that as long as you make enough that outsourcing is affordable, but that doesn't mean he's dogmatic or one sided in his perspective.

I don't agree with everything he says, but I often find that you cast him as promoting a message that he just doesn't. At least not from what I've read.

Challenging the validity of common behaviours and their justifications isn't the same as insisting that everyone do what he does.

Citation:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

I agree. I initially pushed back pretty hard on MMM’s challenges to conventional wisdom (insourcing in particular). but he eventually convinced me (at least on insourcing). Just because “x costs $y/hr”,“I get paid the equivalent of $z/hr”, and “ y < z”, it doesn’t necessarily follow that "I shouldn’t do x" — for a multitude of reasons.

I fondly remember the early days of getting home from work, logging in, and being greeted with a shiny new post, packed with counter-intuitive ideas presented with over-the-top rhetoric. Like Malcat, I didn’t always agree with him (or his persona), but he was entertaining and thought-provoking.

Like Botany Bae, I also loved the DIY posts. I'm not particularly handy myself, but reading his adventures pouring a shower pan and replacing a furnace (among many others) was pure DIY porn.

I've gotten a wee bit jaded with the blog now. He's not the same person he was when he started the blog (and neither am I). Perhaps more importantly, he's already posted a whole fucking ton of articles. It's hard to post much more on the same topic without repeating yourself.

I would like to read more of his DIY exploits.

Metalcat

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2021, 03:14:25 PM »
^ he was doing videos with his kid about some home DIY projects, no idea if he kept doing them because I don't watch videos and don't do much in terms of home renos

FiveSigmas

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2021, 03:28:19 PM »
^ Thanks! I have a love/meh relationship with YouTube, but it looks like there's some good stuff to check out. Added to my list.

maizefolk

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2021, 03:59:08 PM »
Citation:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

Thanks! I was trying to google this but couldn't come up with the correct search terms. Bonus points for already referring to "...the most Oldschool Mustachians among us..." in an entry from ten years ago posted only six months after the blog started.

nereo

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2021, 07:19:04 PM »
I miss sol

Me too (though he does respond to emails). I also miss WarFreak. And James. And ‘the nut’.  Nords I think spends most of his time surfing and only occasionally pops in to make some very detailed posts. And about a dozen other posters that FIRED and found they had learned what they needed and now had better things to do with their time than post here.

Metalcat

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2021, 07:43:44 PM »
I miss B42, clever bastard

FiveSigmas

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2021, 08:18:53 PM »
I miss EWM.  And WestchesterFrugal.

maizefolk

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2021, 08:29:55 PM »
It's been two and and a half years since the last post in the "Whatever happened to ...." thread.

Coincidentally enough, the last post was a wish for a new post from Dr. Doom. That at least was delivered on.

Mr. Green

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2021, 05:45:07 AM »
The extensive dialogue/modeling from a number of prolific posters in numerous forum threads that I saw in my first year here (joined December 2014) probably helped me as much or more than MMM's blog. The blog presented the ideas and painted the broad strokes. The forum allowed me to see people implementing the nuts and bolts, the guts that I needed to see as a newbie learning all this personal finance stuff for the first time.

I think one reason some of that has gone away is that the forum community has grown to the point where there are so many threads that people couldn't provide that same detailed analysis for the larger volume. Personally, I've also found myself less interested in contributing to threads that are asking more mainstream/less Mustachian in nature. I find that I'm just not passionate enough to engage in something that feels facepunchy. Plus my time is more valuable to me now! LOL. When I was working I had at least a couple hours a day to burn just trying to get through my workday. I wonder how much this is the case with other posters who are approaching/have FIREd.

ender

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2021, 06:52:15 AM »
I read the blogs for a while before I ventured over to the forum. Something that I loved about the blogs was that they focused on what was in our circle of control. Here, it feels like a rare day when a post doesn't find a way to turn into people arguing about things that are outside of our circle of control (namely: politics).

Circle of control! That's another good one. Again speaking only from my own personal experience a low information diet (MMM post from back 2013) when it comes to things outside my circle of control did wonders for peace of mind and life satisfaction.


I think this relates to the general pessimism but also just... there are more and more regular posters on these forums I have on ignore because they actively make the forums less interesting and basically are low-grade trolls.

The older I get the less I care to argue with people about things or read not-quite-a-full-troll-but-still-trolling folks and so I find myself just spending less time on here as compared to the "good ole days."

Also, this is petty and minor, but I can't fucking stand how "show new replies" works and not being able to unsubscribe from threads I don't care about is annoying enough I find myself less and less engaged even when I want to be, because I have made the unfortunate mistakes of posting in many high volume threads. Maybe this is petty but it's such a big turnoff for my engagement when that view (which was and is the most useful view, imo) is just degraded.

Another factor is I never really have felt like the "journal" approach here clicked with me. I think many of the regulars now mostly post there, which lessens the actual regular contributions on the main forum (except for the aforementioned low-grade trolls).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 06:56:18 AM by ender »

wageslave23

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2021, 06:54:16 AM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.

I doubt I will be on the forums much at all in retirement.  At least hopefully I won't, if I am I will view that somewhat as a failure.

nereo

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2021, 07:02:47 AM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.


Is there less philosophy out there, or have you simply learned enough that it all feels recycled at this point?  Because I kinda feel the same way, and I'm on the fence about which it actually is.  After internalizing the true cost of home ownership, cars, major tax-efficiency strategies, the pay-down-your-mortgage debate and a few other things... I think the really important issues may have been learned.  The rest is small peanuts (or at least won't have a particularly large impact for most of us)

maizefolk

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2021, 07:11:45 AM »
wageslave23, do you think the loss of learning new things reflects you having learned what there is to know about FIRE? Or a change in what FIRE bloggers are writing about? (Edit: Looks like nereo beat me to this question.)

ender, I know there are lots of threads I specifically avoid posting in so they won't show up in my new replies page. I also have a small handful of posters on my ignore list for exactly the reason you describe. Unfortunately the functionality is not quite what I would want, because it still shows a message saying "userX posted here, do you want to unhide their post" and if it's a thread I'm interested in I'll often give in to the temptation to unhide their post anyway.

Mr. Green, I used to run and post the results from homegrown financial models and remember reading fascinating theoretical and modeling discussions about different withdrawal rate strategies. At least from my own perspective it isn't that there are too many threads to provide coverage, but that I don't see many/any new questions being asked which provide an excuse to write new python code.

G-dog

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2021, 08:25:53 AM »
Quote
Also, this is petty and minor, but I can't fucking stand how "show new replies" works and not being able to unsubscribe from threads I don't care about is annoying enough I find myself less and less engaged even when I want to be, because I have made the unfortunate mistakes of posting in many high volume threads.

Thanks to Daley, I set up the notify / unnotify function so I don’t track any threads I am not interested in,  and I can stop tracking something I posted in that then turned into a shitshow.  I will search for the post and add a link here. 

ETA: link for notify https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/any-way-to-untag-content-from-posts-you've-replied-in/msg2716764/#msg2716764

Like @nereo - I miss the analyses that used to be provided.  And until mentioned, I hadn’t recognized the loss of optimism (way before the pandemic).  There was a “we / I / you can do this” vibe. 

I also tire of seeing so many posters with millions, spending on all the luxuries, crowing about their portfolios.  It feels like “born on third base feeling like they hit a home run”.  So I miss the lower - moderate earners that have to make choices and hustle to build their stash, not just settle for the Tesla 3 instead of the most expensive model (I have no idea if that IS actually the most expensive model). Some people have to make choices to save money versus just running out of things to buy before running out of money.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 10:13:10 AM by G-dog »

DadJokes

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2021, 09:17:44 AM »
Also, this is petty and minor, but I can't fucking stand how "show new replies" works and not being able to unsubscribe from threads I don't care about is annoying enough I find myself less and less engaged even when I want to be, because I have made the unfortunate mistakes of posting in many high volume threads. Maybe this is petty but it's such a big turnoff for my engagement when that view (which was and is the most useful view, imo) is just degraded.

I have actually gone back through threads and deleted my comments, just so that those threads stop appearing in that list.

G-dog

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2021, 10:14:05 AM »
Also, this is petty and minor, but I can't fucking stand how "show new replies" works and not being able to unsubscribe from threads I don't care about is annoying enough I find myself less and less engaged even when I want to be, because I have made the unfortunate mistakes of posting in many high volume threads. Maybe this is petty but it's such a big turnoff for my engagement when that view (which was and is the most useful view, imo) is just degraded.

I have actually gone back through threads and deleted my comments, just so that those threads stop appearing in that list.

That is what i used to do before setting up notify. Really pissed of a prolific journaler once.

frugalnacho

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2021, 10:26:02 AM »
I miss the optimism. I haven't been on the forum as long as some of you all but it seems like people have gotten more pessimistic.  I know there are still people on here who retired on a 4% WR and figured that they could get a part time job if they needed to. Lots of us here still have average incomes and live frugally too.

Huh. Yes I wouldn't have put my finger on it until you said so, but I think you are right that the mood was much more optimistic in the past. Although I feel like society as a whole, or at least the particular slices of society slices I am exposed to/interact with, have gotten more pessimistic in the last decade.

Perhaps part of the shift is explained by a lot of those optimistic folks hitting 25x expenses (or the more complicated and detailed numbers specified by their own math) retiring, and dropping out of participating as much in the forum? Lots of folks are active during the accumulation phase, but then in actual FIRE people start pursuing their own interests and living their best lives and, understandable, are going to be less interested in a forum focused on discussing how to get to where they already are.

I too find the pessimism pretty rampant.

And yes, I think that the general absence of retired happy voices is a big part of that.

I'm afraid it's just going to get worse and worse.

CodingHare

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2021, 10:40:34 AM »
I too find the pessimism pretty rampant.

And yes, I think that the general absence of retired happy voices is a big part of that.

I'm afraid it's just going to get worse and worse.

Quite pessimistic!  ;)  I myself feel pretty hopeful.  Forgive my US centrism: we're coming out of the worst pandemic in a hundred years and a fraught political climate.  I think pessimism is a quite rational response to the problems our society has encountered.  And yet!  We developed vaccines, we have survived political transition, our economy is recovering sector by sector.

On a personal level, the last year saw me transition to a full time remote position--something i had dreamed of but been too afraid to pursue.  We bought a house.  We got a dog.  Last night we ate hot dogs cooked over our firepit.  Life is objectively good in my tiny sphere.  It's easy for me to be swept up emotionally into the large problems facing humanity, but much harder to look at the good and be grateful for it.

Jenny Wren

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2021, 10:41:43 AM »
I miss the optimism. I haven't been on the forum as long as some of you all but it seems like people have gotten more pessimistic.  I know there are still people on here who retired on a 4% WR and figured that they could get a part time job if they needed to. Lots of us here still have average incomes and live frugally too.

Huh. Yes I wouldn't have put my finger on it until you said so, but I think you are right that the mood was much more optimistic in the past. Although I feel like society as a whole, or at least the particular slices of society slices I am exposed to/interact with, have gotten more pessimistic in the last decade.

Perhaps part of the shift is explained by a lot of those optimistic folks hitting 25x expenses (or the more complicated and detailed numbers specified by their own math) retiring, and dropping out of participating as much in the forum? Lots of folks are active during the accumulation phase, but then in actual FIRE people start pursuing their own interests and living their best lives and, understandable, are going to be less interested in a forum focused on discussing how to get to where they already are.

I too find the pessimism pretty rampant.

And yes, I think that the general absence of retired happy voices is a big part of that.

I'm afraid it's just going to get worse and worse.

I see what you did there...

Chaplin

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2021, 10:52:09 AM »
I miss the optimism. I haven't been on the forum as long as some of you all but it seems like people have gotten more pessimistic.  I know there are still people on here who retired on a 4% WR and figured that they could get a part time job if they needed to. Lots of us here still have average incomes and live frugally too.

Huh. Yes I wouldn't have put my finger on it until you said so, but I think you are right that the mood was much more optimistic in the past. Although I feel like society as a whole, or at least the particular slices of society slices I am exposed to/interact with, have gotten more pessimistic in the last decade.

Perhaps part of the shift is explained by a lot of those optimistic folks hitting 25x expenses (or the more complicated and detailed numbers specified by their own math) retiring, and dropping out of participating as much in the forum? Lots of folks are active during the accumulation phase, but then in actual FIRE people start pursuing their own interests and living their best lives and, understandable, are going to be less interested in a forum focused on discussing how to get to where they already are.

I too find the pessimism pretty rampant.

And yes, I think that the general absence of retired happy voices is a big part of that.

I'm afraid it's just going to get worse and worse.

So meta!

I share many of the thoughts already mentioned. The whataboutism is frustrating - it shows up here because it's a big part of wider society. In almost effort to improve something you see comments that essentially say "but the 10% of people for whom this isn't practical invalidates the whole idea." It also seems to me that there used to be more great stories of people doing amazing things to improve their lives. For a while the journals were my favorite source of recreational reading because there were well-written, real stories of adversity and triumph. There are still some of course.

I still get a lot of value and pleasure from participating, but the novelty of having my views challenged, my thinking broadened, and profoundly changing the course of my life has worn off because I've internalized the main points and maybe there isn't anything fundamentally new to say in this area right now.

Metalcat

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2021, 11:26:17 AM »
I miss the optimism. I haven't been on the forum as long as some of you all but it seems like people have gotten more pessimistic.  I know there are still people on here who retired on a 4% WR and figured that they could get a part time job if they needed to. Lots of us here still have average incomes and live frugally too.

Huh. Yes I wouldn't have put my finger on it until you said so, but I think you are right that the mood was much more optimistic in the past. Although I feel like society as a whole, or at least the particular slices of society slices I am exposed to/interact with, have gotten more pessimistic in the last decade.

Perhaps part of the shift is explained by a lot of those optimistic folks hitting 25x expenses (or the more complicated and detailed numbers specified by their own math) retiring, and dropping out of participating as much in the forum? Lots of folks are active during the accumulation phase, but then in actual FIRE people start pursuing their own interests and living their best lives and, understandable, are going to be less interested in a forum focused on discussing how to get to where they already are.

I too find the pessimism pretty rampant.

And yes, I think that the general absence of retired happy voices is a big part of that.

I'm afraid it's just going to get worse and worse.

So meta!

I share many of the thoughts already mentioned. The whataboutism is frustrating - it shows up here because it's a big part of wider society. In almost effort to improve something you see comments that essentially say "but the 10% of people for whom this isn't practical invalidates the whole idea." It also seems to me that there used to be more great stories of people doing amazing things to improve their lives. For a while the journals were my favorite source of recreational reading because there were well-written, real stories of adversity and triumph. There are still some of course.

I still get a lot of value and pleasure from participating, but the novelty of having my views challenged, my thinking broadened, and profoundly changing the course of my life has worn off because I've internalized the main points and maybe there isn't anything fundamentally new to say in this area right now.

Ironically pessimism and whataboutism tend to be inversely related to how a person has experienced real life, plan ruining crises.

Those of us who have had everything we work for blow up in our faces and our major life plans ruined, tend to realize that life just goes on; you're still just you, still just living your life. It's not the end of the world, things are just different from what you expected.

In the end it's all just so...normal.

People tend to see their future as dichotomous: success or failure, when reality is nothing like that. Success doesn't feel like "happily ever after" and failure doesn't feel like "game over".

So when I see people agonizing over what the markets might do, which is totally out of there control, and probably going to be fine, it all just seems so fucking manageable.

Life is hard, challenges come up, sometimes they're financial, plans get changed, life keeps on going and keeps being hard, and everyone makes the best of it, and no one ever worried their way out of it.

wageslave23

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2021, 11:31:28 AM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.


Is there less philosophy out there, or have you simply learned enough that it all feels recycled at this point?  Because I kinda feel the same way, and I'm on the fence about which it actually is.  After internalizing the true cost of home ownership, cars, major tax-efficiency strategies, the pay-down-your-mortgage debate and a few other things... I think the really important issues may have been learned.  The rest is small peanuts (or at least won't have a particularly large impact for most of us)

I think it is definitely a combination of both.  I just wish bloggers would grow with their readers and continue to question things that normally go unquestioned.  Especially once you have the nuts and bolts of personal finance all dialed in.  There should be endless blog topics relating to work, finance, the economy, family/relationship dynamics, meaning...

Metalcat

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2021, 11:32:47 AM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.


Is there less philosophy out there, or have you simply learned enough that it all feels recycled at this point?  Because I kinda feel the same way, and I'm on the fence about which it actually is.  After internalizing the true cost of home ownership, cars, major tax-efficiency strategies, the pay-down-your-mortgage debate and a few other things... I think the really important issues may have been learned.  The rest is small peanuts (or at least won't have a particularly large impact for most of us)

I think it is definitely a combination of both.  I just wish bloggers would grow with their readers and continue to question things that normally go unquestioned.  Especially once you have the nuts and bolts of personal finance all dialed in.  There should be endless blog topics relating to work, finance, the economy, family/relationship dynamics, meaning...

That shit doesn't sell :P

DadJokes

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2021, 11:37:42 AM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.


Is there less philosophy out there, or have you simply learned enough that it all feels recycled at this point?  Because I kinda feel the same way, and I'm on the fence about which it actually is.  After internalizing the true cost of home ownership, cars, major tax-efficiency strategies, the pay-down-your-mortgage debate and a few other things... I think the really important issues may have been learned.  The rest is small peanuts (or at least won't have a particularly large impact for most of us)

I think it is definitely a combination of both.  I just wish bloggers would grow with their readers and continue to question things that normally go unquestioned.  Especially once you have the nuts and bolts of personal finance all dialed in.  There should be endless blog topics relating to work, finance, the economy, family/relationship dynamics, meaning...

You don't need an entire blog post to answer that last one. The answer is 42.

Metalcat

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2021, 12:53:45 PM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.

I doubt I will be on the forums much at all in retirement.  At least hopefully I won't, if I am I will view that somewhat as a failure.
Wah!! I'm a failure! Going off to cry alone in my corner now ;-). JK but since I didn't get to go online while working, I'm making up for it now that I have endless free time. Plus I do not only continue to learn new things my self, but I think having some longer term early retiree voices here might be helpful to others dealing with various issues. Maybe I'm wrong and it is viewed by many as failing at FIRE if we engage here. Either way I get to do whatever the "F" I want 24/7 so it's all good.

As for the OP, I came here around 2014 and there were lots of former ERE types here. I miss their more creative, a bit more radical ideas and experiences compared to the big bucks spend pant on here now who seem to live (and spend) just like every other middle class Jones.

Yeah, I see a lot of value from the people who contribute here after retirement, and I'm not at all saying that because I'm retired...not at all...

However, it depends if you see yourself more as a consumer of information or a contributor to a community.

I've been here for years and barely ever talked much about personal finance, savings, or really much at all to do with math. So the subject matter of my posts didn't change much when I retired, I mostly just talk about happiness and mental health.

Jenny Wren

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2021, 01:25:15 PM »

As for the OP, I came here around 2014 and there were lots of former ERE types here. I miss their more creative, a bit more radical ideas and experiences compared to the big bucks spend pant on here now who seem to live (and spend) just like every other middle class Jones.

It's funny you mention ERE. I recently realized we had gone a bit soft and it was holding us back from our next phase of goals but without improving our quality of life. I've been rereading ERE (book and blog posts) to get back into the austerity measures but high quality of life mindset.

GoCubsGo

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2021, 01:39:38 PM »
I guess I miss how the community seemed smaller and more in-depth with both question and answers.  Maybe it's just me but it seems like there's been more and more people that don't participate much, ask for advice, don't like it and don't respond back.  The old days seemed more like a community. 

I also feel like people were more hardcore on the Mustachian side.  I made a lot of changes and tried things I never would have before finding this blog because of both MMM and the many posters level of dedication (basically shamed me into it).  +1 on hanging out reading the journal section more and more than the forums.

Metalcat

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Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2021, 01:42:38 PM »
I guess I miss how the community seemed smaller and more in-depth with both question and answers.  Maybe it's just me but it seems like there's been more and more people that don't participate much, ask for advice, don't like it and don't respond back.  The old days seemed more like a community. 

I also feel like people were more hardcore on the Mustachian side.  I made a lot of changes and tried things I never would have before finding this blog because of both MMM and the many posters level of dedication (basically shamed me into it).  +1 on hanging out reading the journal section more and more than the forums.

Oh yeah, so many drive-by question threads with little to no participation from the OP despite a lot of people taking time to ask clarifying questions.