The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: intotherealworld on November 04, 2016, 09:21:45 AM
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Can anyone give examples of things they've done that had a significant positive impact on their job/pay?
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I changed careers. I was maxed out at about $32,000 in my previous career. Decided to change. Got a master's degree in a whole different field, and my income doubled, then continued going up from there. Best decision I ever made.
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For me it boils down to several easy tasks as the vast majority doesn't even try. People have a tendency to think that everyone else is unaware if they are slacking off but this is false, everyone knows. I have received several bonuses and pay increases without having to complete a request form because I show up and get my work done while others complain about a small cost of living adjustment.
- Arrive to work on time, be consistent, and dependable
- Complete tasks assigned to you without people having to micromanage you
- Be proactive at work to solve problems whenever possible
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Not sure the industry you're looking at but the biggest change for me recently has been moving from a cushy office environment out to site.
I was around 68k in the office then filled a temporary role at site so with site bonus and OT it went up to ~100k. That temporary role at site has turned into a permanent role which means an adjustment to base pay so compensation is now up to ~129k.
Obviously working away from home Mon-Fri doesn't work for everyone but it is a great way to build a stash in just a few years. That and the willingness to push for a role where you want it, I knew I wanted to be involved in the work happening at site so I spoke with supervisors and pushed to get into the temporary role and so far it was led to a 88% pay increase in <6months
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I gambled and took a ~50% pay cut to switch to a small up and coming company that was in a good position, 1 year later we sold, got a hefty bonus and was brought on to the new company at nearly double my previous salary
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1) Choose a profession and industry that's 'in demand'. Research salaries, trends, etc. Another way to put this is "Don't follow your passions at work, follow the money".
2) What boyerbt said. I've had a similar experience where I've received multiple off cycle raises/bonuses because of results delivered
3) Realize that your employer is only going to pay you based on the results you have delivered. They wouldn't hire you if there wasn't a positive ROI on your salary. Drive higher results --> Drive higher pay. The more money I make for my employer, the higher my skills are valued and the higher compensation I am able to drive (both with the company and if I were to get a different job)
4) Sometimes you will need to switch companies to capture a higher salary. You are worth more to a company looking to hire than you are to your current company because complacency sets in
5) Self Improvement: Get a masters degree, get a mentor, network, read books like "How to Win Friends and Influence People", etc. The payback, in salary, is over a few year time frame. Don't get discouraged
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- Arrive to work on time, be consistent, and dependable
- Complete tasks assigned to you without people having to micromanage you
- Be proactive at work to solve problems whenever possible
Agreed. Getting work done thoroughly and within timeframes/policies without needing anyone to hold your hand goes a long way. I kept my head down and did what I needed to do without being a squeaky wheel (unless a situation warranted supervisor involvement) not knowing anyone was watching and ended up getting a couple promotions.
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I got a M.S. Engineering management. I asked for a promotion and got it.
Really put in the time and worked unreasonable hours for a number of years.
Then serendipity struck!
over a few years, the company went through a period of change - lots of reorgs, changing managers and project cancellations.
It really sucked. But now the company had huge retention problems and started bringing people to competitive market rates.
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Changed careers.
I was averaging $52-55k/yr in retail management and left 2 years ago next month.
Got into commissioned sales.
Year 1 - $109k
Year 2 - $160k
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Choose an in-demand field and be willing to follow that demand to wherever it's greatest (within your state, country, or even world, to the extent possible depending on your personal life circumstances). I've seen variations of over 100% for the same job in my field in different parts of the U.S. alone.
Pay attention to ads for people who are doing exactly the same job you're doing, in exactly the same location, and make your employer aware of offers that are higher than what you're currently making. This is how I got a 25% raise.
And yes, do your job well. Even if it doesn't get you a raise, it should at least keep them from wanting to get rid of you. Not to mention having a little pride in your work just feels good.
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Really the only way to increase your salary in education is to get additional degrees, certificates, and credits. My district has a big new professional development plan and if I can get the work done in two years I'll get an $8,000 raise. It's a TON of additional work but since I topped out on the salary scale years ago I'm going to bust my butt to get the credits because that raise will be nice.
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Accepted a challenging and high-risk role overseas.
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After 4 years with my first company out of college, i scheduled a career discussion with my boss where I talked about my long term professional and income goals. I was a well regarded employee, felt like I had demonstrated my value and had a great boss that I trusted. She laughed when I told her my 10 year goals. She basically said it wasn't going to happen at that company, so I started looking for a job the next day.
I looked for a good company that I thought was set to ride a technology trend (I am an engineer). I took a job in a part of the country that I really didn't want to live (turns out it is a great place). After the first month, I told my wife that I was going to need to work very hard to distinguish myself from a very talented staff. So I put my head down, worked hard, tried to anticipate what my boss wanted, treated everyone around me with respect and took every challenge they threw at me without complaint.
I have now been with company #2 for 11 years and have exceed the income goal I set 10 years earlier by 2.5X. Soon I will be FIRE!! :))))
I admit that I was lucky. I found a division in a company that was growing like gangbusters and where my skills and personality were valued.
My advice:
1. Have some long term objectives and stick to them. Don't get distracted by every shiny object that comes along, but also don't be afraid to make a change if you don't think you are on the path to achieve your goals.
2. Work hard, smartly and do things the right way. Follow the golden rule at work.
3. Be a dependable and low maintenance employee.
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Negotiating on jobs offers and making it clear salary is important.
Changing jobs when possible and being open to new opportunities and higher pay.
Going from "permanent" salary to contract hourly at a higher rate.
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Bachelor's degree (in lucrative field), moving to a large metro area, and quickly leaving my first post college job once it was clear I would never be valued or grow.
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Posting to follow.
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Doubled my wages by casting a wide net. Was planning how I was going to save my fortune with piddly $0.50/hour raises. Girlfriend encouraged me saying I was worth more. Blitzed many big food companies with applications, got my foot in the door after 2 years, went from $12 an hour w/out benefits to $25 an hour, 3 weeks PTO, health insurance, retirement, baby bonding....
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For me, it was just putting in for promotions. I tend to turn opportunities down (with everyting, jobs, women, everything). They practically begged me to put in a few years ago, and I snubbed the leadership. I would be overall second-in-charge now if I had just put in. I did take one step up recently though (about time).
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Having the audacity to take on projects that no one else was interested in that I was sure would create new (and highly profitable) revenue streams in an organization. I was right four out of five times. The one time I wasn't right turned out to be beneficial in other ways as it allowed me to grow the network necessary to insure the success of one of the other projects.
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First, choose your career wisely. An in-demand career will leave you countless options. Choose something that is in demand and pays well.
Second, be good at what you do and build a reptuation / network of people that will provide you opportunities. Don't show up to work in crappy clothes if you want to advance in your career. Show that you want to be promoted and you're ready to take on new roles. Do little things that make you stand out among your peers, like (obviously this is career-specific, but for me...) giving presentations, or leading trainings, etc. Be so good at what you do that you free up time for yourself to volunteer for new projects. Just constantly show that you are ready for the next thing they can throw at you. This doesn't mean working a ton of wasted hours. Face-time is a dumb concept. Give them the results they want and you'll be singled out as a "high performer" and given more opportunities. If you aren't getting opportunities to advance at your current company, go find them at a different company (segue to the last bit of advice).
Lastly, and this may sound like millenial tripe but... jump around to different companies. You will have access to many more promotion opportunities and will receive far larger raises by negotiating a market rate salary with a new company than you (likely) will at your current company at your standard 1%-5% annual raises. If you notice your company is not promoting you within 2-3 years or you have a person directly above you that is a lifer and is blocking you (and there's no way to laterally move to continue your career advancement), leave. Jump around for your promotions. My first job was $45K and I would have continued to receive ~3%-5% raises. First raise was to $48K. Next raise would have been just over $50K. I job hopped to a higher role at $60K instead. Then after staying in that role at ongoing 3% raises for 4 years to around $68K (longer than I'd suggest - 4 years with no promotion on a resume in your late 20s makes you look either lazy or un-promotable), I job hopped again to $80K. Then, after a year and a half in this new role I saw an opportunity to advance within the same company but different department and negotiated up to $90K. My latest job hop was a large promotion that took me from $95K to $115K. If a company wants you, they are far more willing to pay a premium to get you in the door than an existing company will pay for you to stay with their lousy 3% annual raises. You of course have to be good at what you do to make the company want you, hence the second bit of advice above.
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I actually found the opposite to what most people are describing here.
My significant raises have come because I have hung around long enough to prove that I'm worth it.
Fair play to those who can negotiate well in an interview, but that's not how I've managed to increase my salary.
Sure I get the standard 2-3% most years, but every 3 years or so there's been 10-20% jump as well as my responsibilities have gone up.
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I actually found the opposite to what most people are describing here.
My significant raises have come because I have hung around long enough to prove that I'm worth it.
Fair play to those who can negotiate well in an interview, but that's not how I've managed to increase my salary.
Sure I get the standard 2-3% most years, but every 3 years or so there's been 10-20% jump as well as my responsibilities have gone up.
That's definitely a better situation if you find yourself in it. If you're able to advance within your company and they keep up with market rates, that's not a bad thing at all. That would be far easier than hopping on a new learning curve every few years at a new company!
As a side story... my current company was trying to fill two Accountant roles last year. The jobs were posted for EIGHT MONTHS before they could find people. I told them they obviously needed to raise the salaries, because there never seems to be a shortage of accountants in our market... they finally ended up having to go back to HR and say this is not working, we need to pay more. HR said they can't raise the salaries on the posted positions and still maintain internal equity among their current accountants. They ended up having to give some mid-year market increases to their existing employees so they wouldn't be hiring new, inexperienced people at a much higher rate. It was kind of a mess. Companies more often (in my experience) fall behind market. The current accountants were ecstatic to receive those raises, seemingly out of nowhere, but the truth of it was they were severely underpaid for years until the company had to hire externally and realized those salaries were way behind market. That doesn't happen everywhere of course, but is an easy trap for companies to fall into as they try to keep their costs low year over year. Then they wonder why turnover is so high... smh.
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GF and I work in vastly different areas but I suppose both can be summed up the same way:
Be good at what you do, make an effort to constantly get better at what you do, and take opportunities when they're offered to you on a silver platter. Double-down when you find something that works; don't necessarily try to improve something outside your main focus.
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My biggest jumps so far have come from switching companies.
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Work hard for promotion, stay long enough after promotion to not burn any bridges, then jump ship for higher pay. Wash, rinse, repeat. Did that three times, but now I'm good where I am until FIRE.
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For me it's been:
1. Being willing to change jobs when it's clear I've hit a ceiling.
2. Figuring out how to make sure my higher ups are aware of my accomplishments without outright bragging. If your work is going unnoticed, that's on you.
3. Playing to my strengths. I'm very honest about what I'm good at and make sure to find others in my team to partner with to deliver the best product rather than do it all myself. Then I make sure that while I'm doing #2, I'm also advocating for the folks who helped me. A rising tide lifts all boats and all that.
In my short 8-year career, I've never had less than a 5% raise and I've jumped up 20% in salary both time I've changed jobs. I still don't make a ton of money, but I'm an English major, so I'll take my $65k/year.
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I got the good degrees and good grades and got a job in an in-demand field at a big, stable company. That was just the beginning though. From there I think a few things have helped me advance more quickly than my peers.
- Performance - nothing else means a thing if you don't have a solid base of performing well
- Job rotations - that has allowed me to get a bigger breadth of experience than most in much less time
- Mentors - I have gained a lot of advice and help from several well-placed mentors
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Switching careers: $30k to $50k
Getting a Bachelors in computer science. Bump from $50k to $70k with a new job
Getting a Master's degree. Bump from $70k to $120k (by seeking a new job that appreciated the degree)
Working harder than everyone else: Means I get bombarded with opportunities and when I decide I want to change venues, I can within a couple months.
Working a second job as a consultant in my field. Extra $60k a year with about 20 hours a month of work.
But the biggest benefit was Cultivating Confidence. I had to be willing to walk into a place, listen to them ask for skill sets that no one has, tell them I could do it, and believe myself that I could. Of course, then I had to work my ass off to get it done, but within a few months, I was doing just fine and the employers were happy with me.
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Negotiating on jobs offers and making it clear salary is important.
This, 100% this. Sometimes a ~5 minute awkward conversation can add up to 10% of your base salary, and then yearly adjustments get added on from there. The higher you can start at, the higher your growth is each year.
Being willing to change jobs when it's clear I've hit a ceiling.
I'm bad at this (I think I may be at a ceiling now), but working to get better at this one.
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For me it boils down to several easy tasks as the vast majority doesn't even try. People have a tendency to think that everyone else is unaware if they are slacking off but this is false, everyone knows. I have received several bonuses and pay increases without having to complete a request form because I show up and get my work done while others complain about a small cost of living adjustment.
- Arrive to work on time, be consistent, and dependable
- Complete tasks assigned to you without people having to micromanage you
- Be proactive at work to solve problems whenever possible
This is a very very good post. There's tons of "soft skills" that are way underrated. No one cares how smart you are if no one likes to work with you.
I made 56k my first year in the industry at 21.
This year at 28 I will have made 233k by November 15th, which I plan to be my last day of work for a few months and pursue work again next year.
I'm way behind intelligence wise in a lot of areas. I'm not that big on small talk so don't have a ton of connections. I don't like a lot of people really.
That being said, I excel in soft skills, following up with tasks, and doing everything I'm supposed to. It's amazing how many people struggle to do the bare minimum and it makes no sense. I don't have a great memory but I can acknowledge that and thus know I need to write everything down. And make lists and reminders constantly.
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Switching careers: $30k to $50k
Getting a Bachelors in computer science. Bump from $50k to $70k with a new job
Getting a Master's degree. Bump from $70k to $120k (by seeking a new job that appreciated the degree)
Working harder than everyone else: Means I get bombarded with opportunities and when I decide I want to change venues, I can within a couple months.
Working a second job as a consultant in my field. Extra $60k a year with about 20 hours a month of work.
But the biggest benefit was Cultivating Confidence. I had to be willing to walk into a place, listen to them ask for skill sets that no one has, tell them I could do it, and believe myself that I could. Of course, then I had to work my ass off to get it done, but within a few months, I was doing just fine and the employers were happy with me.
What a great progression! It's a very interesting point that you mention they ask for a skill set that no one has, and the important thing is to have confidence in yourself that you will be able to get the job done.
How did you go about cultivating this confidence? It sounds like you've done it quite intentionally?
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Starting my own business in my field.
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Firefighter here. If you want to advance in this field you have to take promotional exams and have enough time on in each position to be able to test for the next position. There also has to be people retiring or new stations opening for positions to come open. I started out as a hoseman. Did that for four years and I was eligible to test for driver. Study material is roughly 2k pages taken from several text books and the department procedures manual for a 100 question test. Studied my butt off for 4 months, 5-8 hours of studying most days, and made a 94. There was over 80 other people taking the test, and after seniority points came into play, I ranked #8 on the list (even though I had second highest score). I was able to promote to driver my first try thankfully. Pay went from 50k to 65k. 4 years later decided to test for Lieutenant and I made a 98 and ranked #1. Pay went from 72k to close to 80k where I am currently as Lieutenant.
The only bad thing about this process is that some guys that have no business being in an officer position can take tests really well. There is no interview or skills process. Make a high grade and a position open, boom it's yours. I think these guys forget that with the higher pay, you actually have to know what the hell you are doing when leading men into dangerous situations. There are also some lousy crews out there because their officer doesn't manage the day to day activities around the station well either. It's true that bad leaders make very bad followers.
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I switched to freelancing. It is, of course, not without risk, but i doubled my income by doing that. I also feel there is less stress involved working in freelance jobs. The corporate BS doesn't get to me so much anymore.
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I stayed in a lower-paying job where I was given free rein to lead my own projects, develop new skills and find the best way possible to reach the company's goal.
I then took those skills and landed a new job with a $11k bump in pay and entitlements.
My husband freelanced (often unpaid) for the job he wanted before he actually landed that job. People were noticing this, and in the end he didn't apply for his job, he just received a phone call one night saying he was in.
He then worked long hours, weekends, nights, produced a huge amount of work, and pissed off a few people who weren't thrilled with the change in the status quo, all to be promoted above those people.
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Great question and good feedback on this thread!
For me, the biggest jumps have been via:
1. Proving my competence through good work
2. Having good timing and quitting while I'm ahead... going out and getting job offers if I'm not liking the role or feel undervalued salary-wise. In one case this resulted in a bidding war and I wound up staying with the company I was trying to leave because I was promoted and given a large salary increase
3. CONNECTIONS -- I hate schmoozing, but it's necessary. In the past I've noted when someone in a high-power position compliments my work and I've asked them later on if they're comfortable being a reference for me. This may not be good for people mid-career, but if you're starting out, it's important having good references. I've received scholarships and great jobs largely because of distant, high-profile contacts who were willing to write reference letters for me or pass my resume around. Most executives love doing that kind of thing for good workers (and taking credit for your achievements later on). Also, If an exec passes your resume to HR, you are set to negotiate a good salary coming in the door.
4. Staying long enough at a company to have a reliable resume and build skills, but moving on when when I'm no longer learning (I guess this might be a repeat of #2). I need to heed my own advice on this one since I'm on the cusp of staying too long at my currently company. I'd love to figure out a way to move my role to an independent contractor position at my current company...
5. Finally, I think writing and speaking skills go a long way too and have helped me
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For us it was doing something OUTSIDE our careers that boosted us quickly to FIRE.
We were both teachers, and made very little, but loved it. So we did real estate on the side, and that got us to FIRE.
So it wasn't advancing our career/salary, but doing the career for fun, while going elsewhere to earn our FIRE funds. Something maybe a little different than most the replies here, but something to consider. :)
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For me, it was going for that "stretch" job, the one that you feel is beyond your skill set. So for example, as a newly minted teacher, the "safe" job might be the local public school, whereas the "stretch" job would be the much better paying position in the posh private school. That's how I landed one of the top positions in my field in my city within 3 years of graduating. Also, I went somewhere with a high demand for my skill set and not much supply (not many people who can do what I do).
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4. Staying long enough at a company to have a reliable resume and build skills, but moving on when when I'm no longer learning (I guess this might be a repeat of #2)...
I know that it may vary from company to company/career to career, but do you have a range of how long is "long enough", or how short is "too short"? I think I might be hitting that wall in my current job.
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4. Staying long enough at a company to have a reliable resume and build skills, but moving on when when I'm no longer learning (I guess this might be a repeat of #2)...
I know that it may vary from company to company/career to career, but do you have a range of how long is "long enough", or how short is "too short"? I think I might be hitting that wall in my current job.
You're right, I think it would depend on where you are in your career and the industry you're in. In my early twenties, I jumped jobs every year or every two years. The last two company's I've worked for I stayed 4 years at each and had 1-2 promotions during the 4 year periods (I'm still working at one). I think 4 years shows you're committed and dependable, maybe even 3. Less than that, unless you're early on in your career, might make you an iffy investment for a company.
It all depends... I've worked really hard and grinded out the years, my brother on the other hand jumps around job to job, wherever his curiosity takes him, has had stretches of unemployment and inexplainable gaps in his resume, still he's hugely successful and has companies giving him large stock options to try to retain him.
You probably either have to grind it out and show you're loyal, valuable, dependable 3-4 years at a time, or be the best in your field/super talented so that company's seek you out and you don't have to prove yourself on paper.
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I'm not the ambitious type, so I haven't tried to advance my career exactly, but here are things I've done that have improved my work quality-of-life:
- Building up FU money, so I can easily leave jobs that are problematic. FU money also makes you less stressed, which improves your attitude and the quality of your work.
- Carving out an unusual niche for myself, so my skill set is in demand.
- Asking for raises, even though it's stressful and scary. (Having FU money also helps bolster confidence for this.)
- Doing damned good work, autonomously, so my managers and colleagues know they can depend on me.
- Doing a lot of freelance work, a few months here, a few months there, so I could get away from bad jobs without looking bad: oops, contract's up, so sad, buh-bye now. (Yeah, I've had some really bad jobs.) This also makes it easier to ask for more money, since sometimes the best way to get a raise is to leave for a new company.
- Jumping on appealing job opportunities hard, networking to get my resume on the right desk. This has led to more than one really plum gig, which has beefed up my resume, which makes me a more attractive candidate for future gigs. I mean, dude, I've worked at 343, Epic Games, and Valve. Having a high-visibility job history on LinkedIn gets you noticed, which puts you in a good bargaining position.
Good luck.
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Can anyone give examples of things they've done that had a significant positive impact on their job/pay?
Without doubt, the #1 thing for me was earning a college degree when I was still young and straight out of high school. I know people knock college these days, but I couldn't hold the job I hold now without a degree.
When I was originally hired, I was essentially "a temp" filling in for an employee who was out on leave ... and I took that seriously. I did my job well, volunteered for extra duties, and just generally made myself visible as a good employee and department member. I did not whine about working hard. Within months, I was offered a permanent position.
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What a great progression! It's a very interesting point that you mention they ask for a skill set that no one has, and the important thing is to have confidence in yourself that you will be able to get the job done.
How did you go about cultivating this confidence? It sounds like you've done it quite intentionally?
If you ever did theatre or acting back in school, remember how it felt to turn off the part of your brain that says "No, I'm not Caesar, and crap, there's a math test next period"? That's what I had to do at first. I had to act the character of a confident person even though I didn't feel it. Eventually I got enough wins under my belt that I began to feel confident that I could pick up a new skill quickly, or compete with someone with a fancier degree. That's one aspect.
The other was practicing smiling in front of a mirror. Smiling does amazing things for your body, and it's hard to stay fearful when you smile. You can force yourself into a confident, better mood by doing something, even if you dont' feel it.
Finally, finding challenging hobbies. No one cares if the beer I make turned out bad the first batch (it was pretty good by the way), or if I was the weakest guy in the gym when I started. But I kept working at both until I began winning homebrew awards and winning powerlifting contests. Seeing work pay off is hugely rewarding for the psyche. I believe that's why most office work is so brutal for us, we don't see any real fruits from our labor. Knowing I can make things with my own hands has been huge.
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As far as maximizing earnings, the biggest factors are choosing the right field, then choosing the right company. After that, separate yourself from your peers. If there is an opportunity to get into business ownership, that is the fastest way to move up tax brackets (albeit riskier as well).
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The biggest thing that led to a large salary jump was a promotion followed by a reorg around the year 2000. My salary went from like 55K to 75K in a few months due to 2 promotions.
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Can anyone give examples of things they've done that had a significant positive impact on their job/pay?
Got a college degree in accounting. That was in 1999. I make five times what I made then.
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Seeing work pay off is hugely rewarding for the psyche. I believe that's why most office work is so brutal for us, we don't see any real fruits from our labor.
You are 100% right about that. It's why I love golf. I can tell if I've hit a good shot within a split second after making contact with the ball. In my office job, I have no idea if what I'm doing is any good or making any kind of difference.
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For career advancement (salary would elicit a totally different answer here):
Helping co-workers, mentoring coworkers, extensive brown-nosing of key decision makers, playing office politics better than most, taking on tasks/projects that nobody else wants, using supporting, enabling language (as opposed to negative, this wont work language [even if the idea wont work]), more brown nosing, engaging in high visibility projects, writing and articulating your point eloquently and concisely, speaking with confidence, sabotaging competition.
Its a ruthless landscape out there.
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I started my own business and learned to make money myself.
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Advanced degrees got me in the door, but my work product got me 4 promotions and more than 2x salary--in the same division in the same company. In the meantime, someone hired the same month as me has received exactly 1 promotion and probably commensurate salary bumps. A year after I was hired, I put in a recommendation for a candidate who was eventually hired. That candidate was a quick study and has followed the same path I have--completely leaving the other, slightly more experienced guy in the dust.
We hire competitively, and we track our folks on a "retention risk" matrix. Personally I look for specific examples of the following for new hires and existing team members. These qualities are beyond the technical questions that we ask new hires and monitor on our teams. They've been mentioned here and seem generic, but they are either easily documented during the interview and employee reviews, or they don't exist. We hire, compensate, and promote accordingly.
1) Solid work ethic. Don't complain that you have to work 48-50 hours a few weeks per year with a couple extra weekends sprinkled in around deadline time. Get 'er done! You have lots of weeks of "normal" schedules with a lot of envious perks. Don't let small details fall off your radar.
2) Take responsibility. Own your mistakes as well as your successes. Don't push your problems onto someone else or take/share credit for others' work.
3) Show initiative. For some this means pick up additional OTJ training. For others this means creativity and innovation. I have two guys in their 30s with patents pending. Others contribute new ideas, new approaches, and specific techniques that are rolled over onto new projects. My most recent graduate hire this year was a triple major in undergrad and a grad school ace with creative, formal presentations/seminars and/or research in every department at every level. To finish all of that in five years and at a high performance level required creativity, focus, and extreme attention to the details. And she has performed superbly in her first six months.
4) Be pleasant. If you're a grouch (a) most people won't want you on their team unless you are God's gift to your field, and (b) many clients will be reluctant to work with you unless you can prove to them that you are our free gift to them for the same fee. Often we have time to appreciate your skillset, but a client's short timeline doesn't allow them the same opportunity. That can hurt future project potential.
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The sort of right answer...working hard, no excuses, being a team player, not calling out sick, getting the work done.
The really right answer...moving jobs. I've found once they know you are good and churning out great work, more work comes slowly but surely the little raises to keep you motivated will stop. Atleast this is in my line of work. I've moved 3 times in 11 years and each time for 33% pay bumps because companies Ive found dont like to pay what the market commands.
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A lot of you won't like it, but it's all about learning how to play the game:
-Choose to work on high-visibility projects where possible. It can be as simple as finding out about a new initiative and saying "hey boss, I heard about XXX, can I help out or tag along to meetings to learn?"
-Make sure your work is visible. Take meeting notes or create a scorecard to track projects and circulate them widely. Make sure your boss knows what you are working on, and when you have hit a milestone or a roadblock. Keep him/her in the loop and away from surprises. Err on the side of giving more people credit rather than less "We worked on..." even when it was just "I worked on." If your boss is good he/she will admit it was mostly you, but will appreciate the credit anyways.
-Volunteer for BS stuff like planning committees or round tables or whatever. Put yourself in positions where senior people get to know your face and name.
-When you get invited to a meeting with high level people, ask a question. "Hey, I may be off topic, but I know XXX group is working on YYY, will that affect this project?" Something like that. Don't present yourself as an expert, just offer up something related. Worst case is you get the answer "no that doesn't really apply here" or something, but now you're the person in the meeting, paying attention, and trying to connect the dots.
-Network network network. Attend the networking events. Go to town hall/leadership meetings instead of calling in. Ask a senior person to go to lunch to talk about your career or his/her role or career advice or whatever. Try to take advantage of cross-functional teams to connect with other people in the org you don't work with every day.
-Have something on your resume that tells people you are interested in your career and moving it forward. Advanced degree is the usual option here, but could be professional certification, membership in professional group, etc etc. Doesn't really matter what it is, but it tells people "I'm doing more than just the bare minimum to further my career"
-MOST IMPORTANTLY, make sure people know you are interested in moving up/around. Bring up next steps in performance reviews. Ask a manager about a role open on his/her team, or apply for it. You never want to be in a spot where you are told "oh, we never thought of you for that role, I didn't think you were interested." Even if you aren't interested, think about poking around and tell those involved "I'm just trying to understand if this is a good next step for me." Just the fact that you're thinking about a next step and letting people know it puts you ahead of the game.
-Finally, know when to cut your losses and bolt for the next company. Know what your potential next opportunities are and the timeline for when they will come available and how you rank against those competing for them. If they aren't obvious, ask. If they aren't there, GTFO. The grass isn't always greener, but it usually comes with more money and nothing has to be permanent.
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For us it was doing something OUTSIDE our careers that boosted us quickly to FIRE.
We were both teachers, and made very little, but loved it. So we did real estate on the side, and that got us to FIRE.
So it wasn't advancing our career/salary, but doing the career for fun, while going elsewhere to earn our FIRE funds. Something maybe a little different than most the replies here, but something to consider. :)
Im in the same boat. It was my fun/secondary job that got me to where I am now. In NO wildest dream of mine that I thought I would be making well pass $100K/yearly in my secondary job for the past 3 years.
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Being in the military. There is a certain camaraderie especially if the interviewer was in the same branch as you. They immediately have a connection with you. Also, the military is a good place to gain some work ethic.
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In my experience, it's been as follows:
- Really connect with a manager who gets your role reclassified into a higher grade (+£4k) and recommends you for further promotions (+£6k)
- Move company (+£14k)
- And the best by far is to go freelance - I basically tripled my income for the exact same work
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1 -do good work
2 - network
Your reputation follows you.
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stuff
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_careerism
Good take on one specific example (http://lackingambition.com/?p=301):
"
I am thrilled to make friends who have similar interests and motivations. But by labeling something as a “networking event” I am robbed of that opportunity. I am no longer a human, pondering the issues of our time and making connections with people who have similar passions. But rather, the entire interaction becomes one of opportunity and ulterior motives...
Networking events takes the formerly detestable practices of sycophants and psychopaths and holds them up on a pedestal as something successful people have to do to get an edge. It preaches to people that the purpose of a relationship with your colleague is to use him for what he might be able to do for you. It makes a mockery of sincerity and genuine friendship...
I don’t deny that a lot of job offers come out of personal connections, but here’s a thought: If you are genuinely interested in what you are doing, you won’t be able to help but to have engaging conversations with people about it when you are at talks, seminars or conferences about related issues. Inevitably some friendships will form among those contacts and inevitably career opportunities will come out of those friendships. If you aren’t going to these events because you are genuinely interested in the topic, maybe you are in the wrong field. If your only motivation for going is to try to form some shallow friendships that you can one day take advantage of, you might want to have a second thought about it, rather than just accept the admonition from career-advisers that it is something everybody does and has to do.
"
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stuff
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_careerism
Good take on one specific example (http://lackingambition.com/?p=301):
"
I am thrilled to make friends who have similar interests and motivations. But by labeling something as a “networking event” I am robbed of that opportunity. I am no longer a human, pondering the issues of our time and making connections with people who have similar passions. But rather, the entire interaction becomes one of opportunity and ulterior motives...
Networking events takes the formerly detestable practices of sycophants and psychopaths and holds them up on a pedestal as something successful people have to do to get an edge. It preaches to people that the purpose of a relationship with your colleague is to use him for what he might be able to do for you. It makes a mockery of sincerity and genuine friendship...
I don’t deny that a lot of job offers come out of personal connections, but here’s a thought: If you are genuinely interested in what you are doing, you won’t be able to help but to have engaging conversations with people about it when you are at talks, seminars or conferences about related issues. Inevitably some friendships will form among those contacts and inevitably career opportunities will come out of those friendships. If you aren’t going to these events because you are genuinely interested in the topic, maybe you are in the wrong field. If your only motivation for going is to try to form some shallow friendships that you can one day take advantage of, you might want to have a second thought about it, rather than just accept the admonition from career-advisers that it is something everybody does and has to do.
"
That's an incredibly cynical view.
Everywhere I've worked, "networking events" are simply an opportunity to get together with people in your company/field/alma mater/whatever to foster friendships and relationships, given that we share at least one interest and likely wouldn't have the time or opportunity to meet up otherwise.
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This is a thread likely doomed to anecdotal examples (i.e. but I'm doing X and am making Y!), but I'll throw out a suggestion that's likely to be controversial:
Go into "value added" fields and not "overhead" fields. Engineering, sales, marketing, product management, in most companies, these are the areas where your contribution can be directly tied to an increase in revenue. It's generally easier to show a "give X get Y" relationship to your individual performance in these fields compared to accounting, HR, support, ect. That's certainly NOT to say these jobs aren't important, I just think it's a tougher sell. There's obviously exceptions, i.e. public accounting firms, where the accountants bring in the revenue.
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I own the means of production these days. It is more terrifying, more satisfying and more financially rewarding.
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Stick up for yourself - don't be afraid to ask for what you believe to be fair.
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1. Be an overachiever.
2. Network with the right people by showing them you will outwork everyone.
Job history (and way that I got the job)
Kid: Farm worker (parents had farm)
18: woodworking factory @ 9/hour (showed up in suit and tie and asked for interview, was hired on the spot)
20: tennis instructor at tennis club @ $15/hour (played d2 tennis and that's where the team practiced, I was one of the only players who was consistently outgoing to the members, and their head pro asked if I'd join the staff)
21: tennis coach at high school @ 2k/season (previous head coach recommended me)
23: social studies teacher at small school @ 36k (AD from tennis coaching job recommended me)
24: math teacher/tennis coach at big D1 high school program @ 47k (the mom of a girl I gave lessons to at the tennis club was the superintendent...who knew!!!)
33: Currently at the same school @ 71k between teaching and coaching boys and girls tennis. I intend for this to be my last full time job before FIREing.
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First job in Ozzie: $30k in 2010 - Current $200k (more if commissions :-))
1/ Education - Master - not only because it is needed but also because it took me to a whole new level with...
2/ The power of networking: Countless examples around me of guys that I would consider "average" in their jobs but get the next promotion every time.
Networking, which I use to hate (and still hate), is the number one reason and delivers impressive results.
It's an art. A good book on the subject: "how to make friends and influence people"
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Select a field/career/job that you absolutely love, that so motivates you that you leap from the bed in the morning and can't wait to get started. After that, your enthusiasm will take you very far and you will enjoy every minute of it. In some fields this can also be quite lucrative but since you are loving life, the financial aspects should be secondary.
If I could teleport from my bed to my desk every morning, I would do it. I enjoy my job and find it difficult to retire because I doubt I can make up stuff do on my own which is as interesting. We're not billionaires or anything, but certainly have more than we can reasonably spend after many years of natural, easy, non-sacrificial frugality.
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1. Became a medical doctor and chose a specialty that was reasonably-paying.
2. For my writing, I submit short stories to professional markets. The steadiest money has come from freelancing for a medical newspaper. They don't usually compensate online columns, but they opted to pay me after I chose not to write for free.
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Offer to take on your superiors' work--for free. At the least you'll be getting free on the job training. At best, you'll be noticed for being capable of more.
Assume the role of a leader and not an employee. When you actively participate in uplifting and creating the culture you inhabit the rewards will follow.
Last, become a mentor to those coming up behind you. Some day at least one of them will surpass you and may one day offer you a better position.
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I constantly apply for other jobs. It forces me to update my resume and interviewing skills. I am always aware of what other options are available to me. If I choose to stay at my current job, I feel good about it. I think too many people become comfortable with their current job and don't switch until they are forced to change for some other reason.
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The biggest impact for me was when someone left my three person team at the same time as another was seconded 50% time to another project. The 'training time' for my role is over a year.
I said I was looking for work elsewhere as I'd gone from being 33% of the team to 66%. Money appeared.
Identify changes in the business that make your skills more or less valuable. Ask for more money when they can least afford to lose you.
I constantly apply for other jobs. It forces me to update my resume and interviewing skills. I am always aware of what other options are available to me. If I choose to stay at my current job, I feel good about it. I think too many people become comfortable with their current job and don't switch until they are forced to change for some other reason.
When I can't find anything I want to interview for I take a half day off and arrive in the office in my best suit looking super smart. If done too much this would back fire but I want my supervisors knowing I'm not afraid to look elsewhere.
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I always moved across several states for the mext step up. Waiting around for a job on my existing area would have 1) taken too long 2) forced me to take jobs that were not exactly on point with my specific area of interest. I had a very narrow career path.
So, the answer is: moving
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This is probably not the most helpful answer, but in the spirit of being honest, I think two things explain explain most of why I was earning six figures by 26:
- going to a big deal recognized university that people respected
- being personable when I interviewed in a down economy with thousands of other law students. I had great grades, but so did they, and it seems it was the way my personality clicked with interviewers that got me follow-ups
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So how do you say "I'm looking for work elsewhere"? Can anyone talk about under what situations they've done it, how they've discussed it, and what has happened afterwards, please?
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So how do you say "I'm looking for work elsewhere"? Can anyone talk about under what situations they've done it, how they've discussed it, and what has happened afterwards, please?
I've kind of told that to my boss, but not directly. Me, along with several other people at our company's contract will be expiring shortly. The company offered all of us 1 year extensions. Most people signed it immediately. Instead of signing it, I asked my boss, when is the last day I can sign it. At that point she knew I was looking. I didn't go out of my way to tell her, but I didn't hide it either. I think if you mention it point blank, you run the risk of looking like you're threatening that you want something and if you don't get it, you'll leave.
For me, I wasn't really looking, but another company has approached me already and expressed their interest. I have even gone out to coffee and talked with my potential future boss at this company. If I really had nothing lined up, I probably wouldn't have been bold enough to imply to my boss that I'm looking.
The potential new company is willing to offer me a 4 year contract, plus the salary will be about 20%-25% higher than my current one. I like my current boss and my current company, so my hope is that since they know that I'm looking, they would be willing to bump up my salary. But alas, I don't think they will.
I can't tell you how it will end, since it's going on right now. But hopefully I'll know in a couple of months.
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Networking events takes the formerly detestable practices of sycophants and psychopaths and holds them up on a pedestal as something successful people have to do to get an edge. It preaches to people that the purpose of a relationship with your colleague is to use him for what he might be able to do for you. It makes a mockery of sincerity and genuine friendship...
Networking events have NOTHING to do with friendships, other than creating opportunities to see people face to face to support future work. It is like assuming a speed dating session is about trying to find lasting and sincere friendships... Not one goes to speed dating or networking events looking for that primarily.
They are an avenue for business-minded people to meet other business minded people, and everyone is looking for the chance to meet people that can further their work interests.
It is mutual. Everyone knows why everyone is there. Some are looking to hire, some want to get the ear of a specific person, and others are looking to build the rolodex in a non-slimy way, unlike the "I will pretend to be your friend" way... e.g., that old high school acquaintance that calls you up for lunch and gets all buddy buddy with you then you find out that you are only the means to them accessing your boss or something...
And if you are looking to work relationships to develop sincere friendships, you need to keep looking... This is unusual, and rare.
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Side income and real estate investing have been the biggest boost to my income, and have way more potential to build wealth than my engineering career. I make OK money and I have a "good" job, but I don't see a ton of potential for big raises or promotions with my skill set. And that's OK with me. I am completely over the job thing and I am excited to work at my own investments/ business. I have a decent chance of doubling my overall income this year and speeding up my time to FIRE with a side gig. There is no way I am doubling my salary at my day job anytime in the next 10 years. Investments interest me much more then a career at this point.
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The biggest impact for me was when someone left my three person team at the same time as another was seconded 50% time to another project. The 'training time' for my role is over a year.
I said I was looking for work elsewhere as I'd gone from being 33% of the team to 66%. Money appeared.
This happened to me (albeit with a bigger team) recently, except I haven't seen the "money appear" yet. I've made it clear to my management/superiors that I will expect equal compensation for completing excess work. I'm hoping this reflects in an increased salary come end of the year performance appraisals/salary bumps. wish me luck.
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My biggest actions to grow my career have been:
1. Be a friendly person who is known for helping and supporting others.
2. Be really good at 'working with higher management'. Be confident and look to see what is happening in upper management's world and be ready to talk about the problems they are experiencing with an idea of a solution (but being friendly, not pushy).
3. Change jobs more or less every 24 months.
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The biggest impact for me was when someone left my three person team at the same time as another was seconded 50% time to another project. The 'training time' for my role is over a year.
I said I was looking for work elsewhere as I'd gone from being 33% of the team to 66%. Money appeared.
This happened to me (albeit with a bigger team) recently, except I haven't seen the "money appear" yet. I've made it clear to my management/superiors that I will expect equal compensation for completing excess work. I'm hoping this reflects in an increased salary come end of the year performance appraisals/salary bumps. wish me luck.
There was a delay between me saying I was looking to leave and money appearing - I knew that this can be the case in my company from other people who have gotten offers elsewhere and then got a raise to stay.
Good luck.
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I am/was in IT in the DC metro area, lots of jobs, many require some form of clearance.
I started out as a helpdesk person. Take the tests, Security+, whatever Microsoft desktop operating system you are using.
After 1 to 2 years, look and decide, do you want to be a system admin or a network/router guy? Start in on those line of tests, MCSE or Cisco CCNA. Pass the tests while hanging out with the actual person who is doing your future job at the company. They won't mind, trust me, they want someone who is able to help and is interested in the boring parts. At this point there is a high (but not absolute) probability you will have to switch companies, with the cert in hand and some credible hands-on it won't be an issue. Congratulations you are now out of the helpdesk salary range as a junior sys-admin or network engineer.
Keep up to date with your certifications as you get experience. Things change in the IT world, you want the latest certification. At some point, you will probably graduate to being a team lead, if not an outright project manager on some site with a small team. Get your PMP. Congratulations #2, you are probably now doubling what the top end of a helpdesk person is getting paid!
Sadly, I see many otherwise capable people stop at helpdesk and never get any certifications unless forced to. It really doesn't take that long, the rewards for that week or month of pain and studying far outweigh the cost. And yet most people don't want to be bothered.
jfolsen
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NETWORK! NETWORK! NETWORK!
People come to me with job offers and I switch jobs every 2-3 years.
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Reviving this old thread because I have an update but also I think there is a lot of good information here.
The biggest impact for me was when someone left my three person team at the same time as another was seconded 50% time to another project. The 'training time' for my role is over a year.
I said I was looking for work elsewhere as I'd gone from being 33% of the team to 66%. Money appeared.
This happened to me (albeit with a bigger team) recently, except I haven't seen the "money appear" yet. I've made it clear to my management/superiors that I will expect equal compensation for completing excess work. I'm hoping this reflects in an increased salary come end of the year performance appraisals/salary bumps. wish me luck.
There was a delay between me saying I was looking to leave and money appearing - I knew that this can be the case in my company from other people who have gotten offers elsewhere and then got a raise to stay.
After over a year of waiting, additional money did not appear. So I switched companies and got a salary bump up to market pay for my position/experience. I'm still not 100% sold on the new company, but it has a lot of good perks and I'm learning new skills that should make me even more marketable in the future.
So maybe an action/thought for this thread: Don't be too fearful of the unknown (other companies, industries, etc.) to switch companies if a lucrative opportunity presents itself. I was scared because I was worried there were things about potential new companies/jobs I wouldn't love. You don't have to love every facet about your job/company, since the whole goal of this forum is to reduce the amount of time you need to be there.
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First, a bit about my background. First in the family to go to college, parents never finished high school. Immigrant to the United States. College degree in plant breeding and genetics because agriculture was all I knew.
First job, 1998: laboratory technician. Too dumb to do anything but follow orders.
Current job, 2019: I was promoted today to systems operations manager role, overseeing a team of four systems administrators and one primary desktop support lead responsible for 200+ servers, system security, provisioning of desktops and laptops for business, maintenance of all software licenses, and user support
Here is how I navigated the transition:
- I went back to school for a few computer science classes and became a programmer at a genome sequencing center
- I started a community garden organization which changed my thinking about following orders and helped me realize that I could organize the effort of others
- I became PMP certified when I landed a job as a project manager
- I joined Toastmasters to learn to say it in fewer words after someone walked out of meeting with me and I was a complete and utter failure in the eyes of my douchebag boss
- I learned to negotiate compensation when the big pharma company laid me off and I needed another job
- I did not say no when my manager asked me to step in and help server administrators and desktop support people get their act together despite the fact that systems administrators require specialized care and feeding, and even software programmers don't willingly enter systems administrator's lair
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In 2012 I got a job in a newer small division of an internet marketing company where I gained a very valuable niche skillset. This made me indispensable to the company as it's very difficult to find workers with the same skillset particularly because this company was not based in the Bay area. I later got a much higher offer (50% increase) from a competitor to start up a new division, but my company countered with an even better offer as they didn't want to compete with me. Later, I formed my own business with a good friend leveraging my value and became partners with all the competitors in the space (only a handful). My friend brought the relationship and deep networking skillset (I'm very introverted), and I brought all the operational know how. Plus he had the funds to get things off the ground. Was a perfect business match. I never could have foreseen this development 7 yrs ago and the whole experience has been really eye opening. My recommendation to young people entering the workforce is 1) Network 2) Find a solid company where you can move into different positions that provide more value 3) Figure out what unique skillset you need to gain which will bring the most value. Ideally, it will be a skillset that is not common and brings tremendous value. Surprisingly this is not as hard as it may seem, as most people are lazy. Sometimes you can turn this into your own business once you have experience, that's where the real money is. By the way, I did all this without a bachelors degree.
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I went from 36k in 2010 to 100k in 2019. My advice:
1. Be ambitious
2. Admit you need help and ask for it
3. Admit when you fail and be honest when asked
4. Learn from above and keep being ambitious
Nothing wrong with biting off more than you can chew, but never be too proud to admit you could have done better or need help.
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1. Keep good professional friends/mentors/networks. You will pick up on the habits of those you are closest to. Prune the whingers and those who are bad at their job and make friends with those who are as good as you, and form a clique, i.e. an old boys'/girls' club.
2. Try to find a field in which your services are something of a Veblen good. Rather than pricing yourself at what you think you're worth, price yourself 10% higher and pretend you're that good. Sooner rather than later, you'll actually be worth it (presuming you're talented, healthy and incredibly hard working). When you get to that point, raise your hourly fee by another 10%. Always charge like a wounded bull...but tell everyone you're worth it, and they'll believe you (presuming you're smart and capable).
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So many of the tips ring true for me too. Two years later, I’ve identified a few other actions.
1. Always be open to having a different job. Apply for a new job every year or so. The job should be related to what you’re doing now, but should also stretch you a bit. Applying also keeps your interview skills sharp, and if you get a better offer, you have leverage with which to ask for a raise at your current employer.
2. Keep a good professional network. You don’t have to be best buddies with everyone. You do have to be at least somewhat visible.
3. Charge more than you think you’re worth. Act like you’re worth what you charge.
4. Do good work. Be professional and responsible. Strive to be the best in your field.
5. Don’t backstab or gossip about other colleagues or people in your network. Stay out of the gossip completely. Keep your head down and do good work.
6. Admit when you don’t know something. Then go and learn about it so the next time someone asks, you will know the answer.
7. Become known as being a problem solver. So many people are good at identifying the problem, but not many go the extra mile and solve the problem. People are willing to pay a lot of money to you to make a problem go away.
I guess I should provide some anecdata to back up the above. First job out of college: $23k per year. Eight years later: $280k per year.
I should add that I’m terrible at networking and practically fell off the introversion scale on the Myers Briggs. I have learned how to pretend to be extroverted. That gets me to the point where I can hold a short conversation with others in a social setting, after which I spend a week holed up at home recuperating. I can speak to large crowds though, because I’m basically talking to myself, and I do that all the time anyway. :P
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So many of the tips ring true for me too. Two years later, I’ve identified a few other actions.
1. Always be open to having a different job. Apply for a new job every year or so. The job should be related to what you’re doing now, but should also stretch you a bit. Applying also keeps your interview skills sharp, and if you get a better offer, you have leverage with which to ask for a raise at your current employer.
2. Keep a good professional network. You don’t have to be best buddies with everyone. You do have to be at least somewhat visible.
3. Charge more than you think you’re worth. Act like you’re worth what you charge.
4. Do good work. Be professional and responsible. Strive to be the best in your field.
5. Don’t backstab or gossip about other colleagues or people in your network. Stay out of the gossip completely. Keep your head down and do good work.
6. Admit when you don’t know something. Then go and learn about it so the next time someone asks, you will know the answer.
7. Become known as being a problem solver. So many people are good at identifying the problem, but not many go the extra mile and solve the problem. People are willing to pay a lot of money to you to make a problem go away.
I guess I should provide some anecdata to back up the above. First job out of college: $23k per year. Eight years later: $280k per year.
Great post. Top notch tips.
I see we both agree on the fundamental point - charge more than what you think is the 'fair' price for what your services are. Chances are, if you're good at what you do and well-respected, no one will perceive the difference.
A corollary - try to work in a field where you are either self-employed or you have the ability to set your own rate (surgeon, trial lawyer, consultant, IT whiz, engineer etc).
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Provide greater value than your peers
Say ‘yes’ when challenging assignments are offered
Be mobile
Execute. On time. On target.
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Lots of really good answers, but I'd add one more. If your job is a general type role that translates to many companies like HR, recruiting, etc, choose an industry that pays well for those roles. I work for a consulting company and most recruiters I know make $90k to $100k which is much higher than the average for recruiters. Other benefit is that most of the recruiting jobs in consulting are remote.
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As a counterpoint to the bulk of the advice above, I feel like the most important thing I did was to be born lucky.
Despite being raised poor, I liked school and I read lots of books as a kid, and some of those books taught me that life is an open buffet table to anyone willing to put in the hard work. I learned to work the system, I got good grades, I aced the high school tests like the SAT, and everything else was automatic from there. Like clockwork, success just unfolded for me.
The country's best colleges came calling with full ride scholarships for the bright kid from a poor family. After graduation, grad schools competed for the guy from the top tier school. After grad school, my academic pedigree opened doors to good jobs, which offered continuous opportunities for self improvement. At no point between 8th grade and retirement did I feel like I had to make any important decisions that altered the course of my life. It all unfolded pretty much automatically as soon as I decided to take the reigns in 8th grade.
Of course, being born a tall white guy undoubtedly played some role in my good fortune. I try not to think about how many equally talented minorities or women I passed on my life's ladder through no fault of my own, because it's depressing. Part of the danger in privilege is how totally invisible it is to the privileged. I understand why so many billionaires think "anyone can be rich if they work hard enough" because that's what they did, without recognizing the advantages they had. Part of it is survivorship bias, certainly, but I suspect a bigger part is that certain types of people are given more opportunities than others without ever understanding why.
The counterpoint to the above argument is that while I consider myself surprisingly successful, some of my more distant acquaintances do not. I know guys who are worth over twenty million dollars from doing stuff like making countertops, or political advertising, or buying hotels, and they consider my meager fortune to be evidence of a life wasted. They think I've settled for mediocrity, that retirement is surrender. I've never chartered a yacht full of models for a trip to the Canary Islands because I'm too poor to enjoy the finer things in life. My wife and children are uremarkable, the kind of people they only consider as background noise instead of the Kerouac-style flares that make life worthwhile.
So success is definitely a relative term, and the kind that I have found, while amazing to me, is disappointing to some. Any job where you worry about "salary" has already relegated you to my world, where at best you aspire to a few mil and a modest home. No one who is asking questions about their career progression is ever going to be as successful as the person who learns to work for themselves. Employees are just servants, and servants don't become kings.
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- Be open (but not annoying) about your goals and ambitions with your manager. Ask what needs to be done to get to the next step and ask where your boss thinks your strengths and weaknesses are.
- Manage up. Find out what pressures, complications, problems your boss is dealing with. See if you can mitigate those. Or at least avoid adding to them. One of my biggest surprises becoming a manager was how needy other people were.
- Ask for salary and raises. Have a well constructed and supported argument as to why.
- Do a good job and be responsible for the resources under your or your companies control.
- Don't just go to people with problems to be solved. Provide potential solutions at the same time
For a specific case I noticed that our organization had an arrangement with a vendor that seemed utterly absurd to me. I needed to complete a large purchase from this vendor for a project I was tasked with. I tried to engage with the internal person responsible for the arrangement but was rebuffed because, supposedly, the vendor wasn't interested in doing better. Instead of just accepting that explanation (like everyone else was) and paying a grossly excessive amount for what we needed I got in contact with the vendor themselves. After finding they were very amenable to much more favorable terms I brought up to management during a project update how I tentatively secured much better pricing from this vendor. The contract I negotiated ended up being used as the basis for a new contract for our rather large organization.
I think a big part of the success in my career progression (3 promotions in 4 years and over people with more time in the position and company) is that I touch base with whoever is my boss a couple times a year to see if we're on the same page about my work performance and I proactively tell them I am interested in whatever job title is next in the promotion progression. This isn't just a "I deserve it" (Which people try and doesn't seem to work out well) but a conversation. "I think I am on track for this in X amount of time because I've done W, Y and Z with these successful results. Are there areas I should focus on improving to make this progression more likely? Are there any suggestions for things I could be doing better?" and then on the next discussion "We talked about me doing\improving on A and B. Here are the results which seem very good. What are your impressions of A and B?" Some people have openly grumbled about my progression but they are much more passive about their career progression. I was actually told by one of them that it was unfair because their manager hasn't lead them through their career progression. I told them that I take responsibility for my own career progression and steer it where I want to go.
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The action that had the biggest impact on my career was lying on my resume years ago. I was unemployed and having a quarter life crisis, but I knew I had the talent and ability but lacked the experience for the role I really wanted. I wanted interview experience too, so I made up and exaggerated some roles, and then for the interviews I went in with full confidence as if I had done that work. I was young, had nothing to lose and treated it as a game. Lo and behold, it worked. I ended up getting a high paying job, which I initially rejected because I lied and said I had a better offer, so they upped the offer. That job didn’t last long, but from that I got an even better job and have continued to build on it. I’ve never had to lie or exaggerate since, and that job put me at a level I’ve never come down from. Sometimes desperation and ambition and youth get in the way of morality and perfectionism.
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Taking the chance when getting a job offer with the stipulation that the job was in New York City. Basically being willing to make a move to a HCOL city when I was born and raised in the Midwest.
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Keep switching; move to smaller companies taking bigger positions and responsibilities
Be business focused; all your work that doesn't grow the business doesn't grow your career too
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The action that had the biggest impact on my career was lying on my resume years ago.
Funny, I did the same thing. Didn't even think about it, but it was also one of the biggest positive impacts on my career. Not that I recommend anyone else doing the same. "Fake it 'til you make it" worked in my case. Sometimes talent is more important than experience.
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I took my department by the horns when my then-supervisor left last year. Went from #2 in a department of two to #1 in a department of three, the first order of business being hiring those other two. It's been interesting; the dynamic of going from two to three has changed a ton about the way we do things. Near-immediate $8k bump, with more to come at my next review as long as I don't burn the place down before then.
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I was lucky to get some great opportunities, but others had them also and for whatever reasons didn’t take them.
Most impact:
1. Working for a small UK company, on very short notice they asked if I’d be willing to work in their US subsidiary - basically three guys. I took it. Within 2 years I’d more than tripled my UK salary.
2. Working for a different small US company, a client said they wanted me, and didn’t care who I worked through. I started my own shop. Doubled, sometimes quadrupled my previous earnings.
3. Always assumed it would end (imposter syndrome?). Saved like a fiend. Discovered how to invest later on, but it worked out.
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I realized that I had gotten into a field of employment that was highly competitive and paid very poorly while required high amounts of unappreciated hard work. So I decided to retrain and then enter another kind of employment that was much less competitive and paid better while providing me with less of a workload. That allowed me to take on side hustles and extra paid duties that increased my pay even more. The key is not to "find your passion" but "find something worthwhile that you can live with."
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For me it was a combination of:
1. Relationships
2. Leverage
3. Timing
4. Competence
5. Education
6. Being consistently professional, not complaining etc.
I'd say I'm a solid performer but not a high flyer by any means. But I'm consistent, reliable, professional, and try to stay positive. It's the soft skills that really help.
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Specialization
Strategic thinking
Beginner's mindset
Focus on things that make the most impact and aggressively cutting out the things that don't.
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The one thing I always tell people that feel like they're not moving along in their careers is, 'get in over your head'. All my biggest jumps have been taking positions that, while I was fairly qualified for them, they were such a big step from where I was that it scared me. A few weeks of severe imposter syndrome and 'holy shit what have I done I can't do this', then it calms down and I can breath again. If you don't feel like an imposter at least some of the time, you're not pushing yourself enough. Even if you fail, you'll come out way ahead of when you started in knowledge.
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- Picked the right field (Computer Programming) - a field that had the potential to pay well and offer opportunities (although in honesty I didn't know that when I started out). Got a degree in that field.
- Picked a field that matched my interests/aptitude/personality
- Pick the right industry to work in if your job is not industry-specific. Every industry needs programmers, accountants, etc. but different industries have different profit margins and business models and therefore compensate their employees very differently. This can make a huge difference!
- Be willing to go where the work is. I peaked in my career earning-wise at one point but being willing to move to another city changed that dynamic and made a huge difference.
- Pick the right companies. For me early in my career this meant a MegaCorp with a great reputation and one that would offer me learning opportunities and teach me good industry processes.
- Went back at night on the companies dime to get a Masters Degree that rounded out my skills in the industry in which I work
- Always work hard and hold myself to a high standard. I'm not necessarily talking about long hours as I always resisted that, just demand alot of yourself.
- Learn how to identify great bosses from OK and bad bosses. The great ones are looking out for your best interest too, not just their own. The bad ones screw you over through bad will or just pure incompetence. I have experienced the spectrum here.
- Be a low-maintenance employee. Just get shit done with no drama.
- Learn what your real skills are and use them. For me I consider myself a good, not great developer. But I am good at dealing with difficult personalities (see note on being low maintenance) so makes me a little more valuable to my boss as I work with some strong personalities. This has given me specific opportunities to try to help a bad situation and have gotten recognized for that at review time.
- Another skill I have is the ability to deal with ambiguity around work situations. I guess I just have a high tolerance for bullshit and where there is a lack of clarity and don't get derailed by that. Bosses like it when they can count on you in tough times.
- Don't be afraid to fail. Sounds cliche but I took a big risk at one point in my career and absolutely flopped. My willingness to do that however got me noticed when I interviewed after that. I was able to tell a good (true) story about my failure; why I took the risk, what I learned, etc.
- Never bring your boss a problem. Bring her/him a solution to the problem and they'll start to look to you for help more often.
- Your reputation matters. I got my job at MegaCorp because a director I used to interact with tangentially now worked at another company and knew he could rely on me.
Wow that's really a more than I thought I'd come up with when I started...
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$12/hr - Work Experience (Related Field)
$20/hr - Education (Related Field)
$28/hr - Changed Employers
$34/hr - Applied for a higher level position
$43/hr - Stagnated in a comfy spot
+ Luck
+ Timing
+ White privilege
+ Supportive parents
+ The best wife
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+ Supportive parents
+ The best wife
This too! Having a supportive spouse or family is a big help too. I could never have accomplished anything without the support (in many forms) from my wife! I have witnessed the opposite effect as well in others in my life. Putting effort into developing the relationships close to you pays dividends. They may keep you on track when times are tough. I've seen people who appear to be headed for great things simply get derailed and sort of quit. A support system helps you to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Perhaps a work mentor could help in this area too.
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As a counterpoint to the bulk of the advice above, I feel like the most important thing I did was to be born lucky.
Despite being raised poor, I liked school and I read lots of books as a kid, and some of those books taught me that life is an open buffet table to anyone willing to put in the hard work. I learned to work the system, I got good grades, I aced the high school tests like the SAT, and everything else was automatic from there. Like clockwork, success just unfolded for me.
The country's best colleges came calling with full ride scholarships for the bright kid from a poor family. After graduation, grad schools competed for the guy from the top tier school. After grad school, my academic pedigree opened doors to good jobs, which offered continuous opportunities for self improvement. At no point between 8th grade and retirement did I feel like I had to make any important decisions that altered the course of my life. It all unfolded pretty much automatically as soon as I decided to take the reigns in 8th grade.
Of course, being born a tall white guy undoubtedly played some role in my good fortune. I try not to think about how many equally talented minorities or women I passed on my life's ladder through no fault of my own, because it's depressing. Part of the danger in privilege is how totally invisible it is to the privileged. I understand why so many billionaires think "anyone can be rich if they work hard enough" because that's what they did, without recognizing the advantages they had. Part of it is survivorship bias, certainly, but I suspect a bigger part is that certain types of people are given more opportunities than others without ever understanding why.
The counterpoint to the above argument is that while I consider myself surprisingly successful, some of my more distant acquaintances do not. I know guys who are worth over twenty million dollars from doing stuff like making countertops, or political advertising, or buying hotels, and they consider my meager fortune to be evidence of a life wasted. They think I've settled for mediocrity, that retirement is surrender. I've never chartered a yacht full of models for a trip to the Canary Islands because I'm too poor to enjoy the finer things in life. My wife and children are uremarkable, the kind of people they only consider as background noise instead of the Kerouac-style flares that make life worthwhile.
So success is definitely a relative term, and the kind that I have found, while amazing to me, is disappointing to some. Any job where you worry about "salary" has already relegated you to my world, where at best you aspire to a few mil and a modest home. No one who is asking questions about their career progression is ever going to be as successful as the person who learns to work for themselves. Employees are just servants, and servants don't become kings.
This really rings true to me. While I didn't do grad school, everything else was simple. Great grades, great SATs. From there, the Ivy League. From there, a job offer in the middle of the recession. From there, I moved jobs every few years and find myself in a senior role making decent money.
Nowhere during this did I work particularly hard. In fact, in most of my reviews, I've gotten middling scores that state I do good work but I could work harder and be more proactive. But previous experience and my degree make it easy to simply coast at a company for 4 years until I leave and get a pay bump at a new company. And I have no reason to not coast. My work life balance is nice - I'm at the office 40 hours a week, not more. I probably actually work 25 hours a week. My previous success make it very likely that I'll just continue on this path because I'm less risky than someone without my background. The cumulative advantages of privilege are to my automatic benefit. And I'm not even white! I've just got inertia from high school that made it unlikely for me to fail. If I worked much harder, I could see myself making 40% more money. I would probably be working 40% more hours. Doesn't seem worth it. And that is such an incredible luxury - to be able to turn down opportunity because I have plenty.
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1. Asking for raises and promotions (often you won't get what you don't ask for)
2. Switching jobs when (1) stops working
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Have the mindset to always be learning. Don't waste valuable free time on mindless entertainment like watching sports (fun I know), reality TV, junk news, useless entertainment on the internet.
Your biggest asset / commodity is the time you have. Most people under-value their time and seek to numb their brains with entertaining but useless stuff, like the things I listed above.
I have a friend who watches almost every NFL game religiously. Several 2-3 hour games every weekend. I watch no NFL games, but go to the gym 2 hours several times per week. The way I spent my time is far more valuable than my friend's time spent.
After 20 years of doing the same habits, I have 20 years of health / fitness built up...my friend has watched 20 years of NFL. What has he gained? What have I gained? The difference is massive.
I'm able to FIRE if I want, my friend will be working for the rest of his life (he also doesn't listen to other advice I give him in terms of career, life etc).
Think strategically about your life, your time, and what you need to do to improve yourself every day.
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The way I spent my time is far more valuable than my friend's time spent.
More valuable to YOU. Maybe your friend values NFL over the gym. And that's ok. Try not to judge people by your values. Everyone values different things. That's also why he (and most people) don't take FIRE/health/fitness advice. They don't value those things the way you do. Even if you think they should, but that's not our call to make.
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Lots of good advice here already, but I'll add my 2 cents.
I found a really good therapist who helped me get out of my own way and quit sabotaging my own success. My income, job satisfaction, and job security all doubled pretty quickly after that. Therapy and life coaching can be pricey, but it's paid for itself many times over in my case.
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The way I spent my time is far more valuable than my friend's time spent.
More valuable to YOU. Maybe your friend values NFL over the gym. And that's ok. Try not to judge people by your values. Everyone values different things. That's also why he (and most people) don't take FIRE/health/fitness advice. They don't value those things the way you do. Even if you think they should, but that's not our call to make.
Kind of a strange reply on this site... and I'll completely disagree with you.
It's NOT ok because the same thing could be said about anything. My friend could be doing weed every day and be perfectly happy, except he'll be nearly broke living paycheck to paycheck.
You missed my post entirely. What we do with our time matters. It's the only thing we have control over. You don't get to mindlessly waste your time and say "it's ok".
My friend started out with a job that made twice as much as my salary after college. Now I make 5 x his salary, am able to FIRE, and can spend the rest of my life watching all the NFL games if I want, and not worry about money. My friend lives in an apartment, with very little in the way of life savings, and the only major property he owns is his used car. He will have to work the rest of his life...I'm not even sure it's possible because he has hit his cap in his career (a low cap due to the low level type of work he does compared to mine), and once he gets over 50+ of age he is going to find it awfully hard to find new jobs if he is laid off or fired because companies are hiring younger people at much less pay rather than overpaying him for the same type of work.
The opportunity cost of him spending 20 years of his prime doing things that add no value to his life has taken away from his station in life. I maximized / optimized my 20 years of my prime life to advance myself financially so I can rest the rest of my life if I wish.
That is not OK, to be in his station in life and be so far behind vs where he could be, had he adopted my mindset and valued his time properly to set himself ahead in life.
We all make choices in life, and we pay for those choices. It's foolish to numb yourself and say "it's ok" to do something that doesn't maximize your situation in real life, and put your head in the sand and ignore what you could do better.
I would have expected your reply on other forums, but not on MMM where people here are far more practical, wise, and realistic about what one needs to do in life to get ahead.
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My friend could be doing weed every day and be perfectly happy, except he'll be nearly broke living paycheck to paycheck.
I have a friend that does just that. It's not for me, but it's what he enjoys doing, so who am I to judge his decisions. He values different things than I do.
You don't get to mindlessly waste your time and say "it's ok".
I disagree strongly. You absolutely do get to do that, if that's what you want to do with your time. And that's ok.
People make decisions that make no sense to others, because they value different things. They buy SUVs instead of funding their retirement because they value the flash and status over the freedom and security, etc etc. And that's their choice to do so. It's not up to us to say it's 'wrong', for THEM. Sure, it's wrong for US, because we don't value the things they do.
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My friend could be doing weed every day and be perfectly happy, except he'll be nearly broke living paycheck to paycheck.
I have a friend that does just that. It's not for me, but it's what he enjoys doing, so who am I to judge his decisions. He values different things than I do.
You don't get to mindlessly waste your time and say "it's ok".
I disagree strongly. You absolutely do get to do that, if that's what you want to do with your time. And that's ok.
People make decisions that make no sense to others, because they value different things. They buy SUVs instead of funding their retirement because they value the flash and status over the freedom and security, etc etc. And that's their choice to do so. It's not up to us to say it's 'wrong', for THEM. Sure, it's wrong for US, because we don't value the things they do.
You missed the points of my post again entirely, and really the point of this forum.
It's all about maximizing yourself so you can enjoy/ do whatever the heck you want later in life, including things that add zero value to yourself or others.
To sacrifice your prime doing things that don't add as much value... is it ok? Sure, but don't fool yourself that you're not sacrificing your future in some way.
It's like if you go and blow a bunch of money on a super fancy luxury car... is it ok to do so? Sure... but you're giving up a lot of opportunity cost to save that money and have it work for you, and you will pay for it, one way or another.
So don't delude yourself that everything is "ok" in life and there is no opportunity cost.
Everything has an opportunity cost... whether you see it or not, acknowledge it, truly understand what you're giving up in return, is wisdom, or lack of it.
The only constant we all have is our health and our time. Everything you do to maximize both your health and your future time is the optimal thing to do. Anything else you do to sacrifice that is not OK... even if you cover your ears and keep repeating "it's ok it's ok it's ok"... it's not, really. Everything comes to roost one way or another.
I've made mistakes of not optimizing my time in the past, and I realize now that I could handled my time better. We all do. But I don't delude myself that it's ok that I was so unaware of how I utilized my time in such a haphazard fashion. I recognized it and learned how to use my time better, so I have way more free time and health in the future. That is the best way to live.
Most people don't think like this and waste so much free time that could be used to improve their situation in life. It's very sad, because no one really teaches us how to think like this and manage our lives like this. And then you have people like yourself who don't understand this big picture and say things like "it's ok that you do what you want to do, without any recognition to the opportunity costs and what you're really giving up for that activity / habit in the big picture"... that's not a helpful mindset to have, imo.
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I started FT work out of college right during the worst of the recession in 2009. I was low balled offers left and right, with overtones of "the economy is in the toilet, so I can get away with offering a super low salary". First offer was $35k. I was already working part time for this company, so they knew I could do the work. After a while I asked if they could offer more than that. Owner was irate with my request and I thought I was done. Someone else at the company calmed him down, and a few days later I was offered $40k. Fine, I could live with that for now.
A year or so later the company was purchased by a large international company which meant my pay had to be bumped up substantially to align with the rest of the company. Previous owner was so happy to tell me this (of course he was, wasn't his money anymore lol). For many years after that, it was the standard 3-5% bump each year. Job was good, had good co workers, and the new owner was a solid corporation that did actually seem to care about the employees.
The last few years I've asked for more responsibilities and have gotten a larger than normal pay bump one year and two promotions (with large pay bumps). I'm probably ~$5k below market for my experience but I get almost 7 weeks vacation and a ton of flexibility (and I enjoy who I work with) so I am not willing to give that up unless I get a huge offer. I am not your standard Millennial who hops between companies, and many are shocked I am more traditional when it comes to "loyalty". Hey, they have treated me well so I stick around!
To sum it up: factors impacting my salary: luck, asking for what I want, sticking it out at least a while to see if it improves (which it did).
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You missed the points of my post again entirely, and really the point of this forum.
I'm not disagreeing with your entire post, just the part of judging other people's actions based on your own values. I'm guilty of it too, we all are. I don't like watching sports either (I don't like passively watching people do things. I'd rather just go do things.), but I get why people do enjoy it (value it), so I'm not going to judge them for spending a whole Sunday (or a whole season of Sundays) doing something, just because I don't find value in it.
Same with not pursuing FIRE, I get why people don't want to. They don't like thinking about the future. They want to live as large as they can now. They want to show off to their peers. They wrongly think you have to choose one or the other, but they also don't want to bother trying to learn more about it (most people don't want to bother learning anything). And that's their choice, they value those things and not the things we value, so they make different choices, which to us make no sense and make us do the 'jackie chan wtf' meme in our heads. Until you realize they don't care about the things we do.
The only time I start caring is when they then complain about where they are because of the choices they've made :-)
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Have the mindset to always be learning. Don't waste valuable free time on mindless entertainment like watching sports (fun I know), reality TV, junk news, useless entertainment on the internet.
Your biggest asset / commodity is the time you have. Most people under-value their time and seek to numb their brains with entertaining but useless stuff, like the things I listed above.
I have a friend who watches almost every NFL game religiously. Several 2-3 hour games every weekend. I watch no NFL games, but go to the gym 2 hours several times per week. The way I spent my time is far more valuable than my friend's time spent.
After 20 years of doing the same habits, I have 20 years of health / fitness built up...my friend has watched 20 years of NFL. What has he gained? What have I gained? The difference is massive.
I'm able to FIRE if I want, my friend will be working for the rest of his life (he also doesn't listen to other advice I give him in terms of career, life etc).
Think strategically about your life, your time, and what you need to do to improve yourself every day.
Judgmental much? Granted I agree working out is far better for long term health among other things, maybe your friend loves football that much; more power to him. It's not your job to judge the value of his time vs. yours. Does he even see you as a friend? lol
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Have the mindset to always be learning. Don't waste valuable free time on mindless entertainment like watching sports (fun I know), reality TV, junk news, useless entertainment on the internet.
Your biggest asset / commodity is the time you have. Most people under-value their time and seek to numb their brains with entertaining but useless stuff, like the things I listed above.
I have a friend who watches almost every NFL game religiously. Several 2-3 hour games every weekend. I watch no NFL games, but go to the gym 2 hours several times per week. The way I spent my time is far more valuable than my friend's time spent.
After 20 years of doing the same habits, I have 20 years of health / fitness built up...my friend has watched 20 years of NFL. What has he gained? What have I gained? The difference is massive.
I'm able to FIRE if I want, my friend will be working for the rest of his life (he also doesn't listen to other advice I give him in terms of career, life etc).
Think strategically about your life, your time, and what you need to do to improve yourself every day.
Judgmental much? Granted I agree working out is far better for long term health among other things, maybe your friend loves football that much; more power to him. It's not your job to judge the value of his time vs. yours. Does he even see you as a friend? lol
Here we go again... another simple minded post / attitude.
You don't understand the big picture. Because I *care* about my friend, is why I call out his activity as a non-value add, for him... it has nothing to do with me. He could get drunk all day long and do weed all day, I don't care. It has no impact on me...the impact is his life.
As a *real* friend, I will try to help my friends from my point of view. I don't put on blinders and not help others when I can. That's why I post on this forum as well - to help others and myself.
You clearly missed the point of my multiple posts. Amazing that folks who don't understand the big picture such as yourself try to call me out, incorrectly and completely misplaced. The end result is you only hurt yourself, and those people in your life whom you don't fully support.
It's far too easy to just say "it's no big deal, it's ok...." when people could be enlightened better and at least made aware of the opportunity costs of their life style choices. It's childish not to look at the big picture and understand the ramifications of your actions. I'm sure if you had kids, you would try to help them understand the optimal way in life as well. Maybe not in your case..it seems you don't really understand.
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The way I spent my time is far more valuable than my friend's time spent.
More valuable to YOU. Maybe your friend values NFL over the gym. And that's ok. Try not to judge people by your values. Everyone values different things. That's also why he (and most people) don't take FIRE/health/fitness advice. They don't value those things the way you do. Even if you think they should, but that's not our call to make.
It's not okay if he's not healthy. I don't know if he is or not, but if the guy eats crap and doesn't exercise...then it's really not ok.
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Kind of a strange reply on this site... and I'll completely disagree with you.
It's NOT ok because the same thing could be said about anything. My friend could be doing weed every day and be perfectly happy, except he'll be nearly broke living paycheck to paycheck.
You missed my post entirely. What we do with our time matters. It's the only thing we have control over. You don't get to mindlessly waste your time and say "it's ok".
My friend started out with a job that made twice as much as my salary after college. Now I make 5 x his salary, am able to FIRE, and can spend the rest of my life watching all the NFL games if I want, and not worry about money. My friend lives in an apartment, with very little in the way of life savings, and the only major property he owns is his used car. He will have to work the rest of his life...I'm not even sure it's possible because he has hit his cap in his career (a low cap due to the low level type of work he does compared to mine), and once he gets over 50+ of age he is going to find it awfully hard to find new jobs if he is laid off or fired because companies are hiring younger people at much less pay rather than overpaying him for the same type of work.
The opportunity cost of him spending 20 years of his prime doing things that add no value to his life has taken away from his station in life. I maximized / optimized my 20 years of my prime life to advance myself financially so I can rest the rest of my life if I wish.
That is not OK, to be in his station in life and be so far behind vs where he could be, had he adopted my mindset and valued his time properly to set himself ahead in life.
We all make choices in life, and we pay for those choices. It's foolish to numb yourself and say "it's ok" to do something that doesn't maximize your situation in real life, and put your head in the sand and ignore what you could do better.
I would have expected your reply on other forums, but not on MMM where people here are far more practical, wise, and realistic about what one needs to do in life to get ahead.
Okay this one, and some of your other comments...I want to agree with Ryan.
I think as people, we have a duty to ourselves to ... take care of ourselves? I mean the basics. Sleep, exercise, decent food. Work a job, pay our bills, etc.
But beyond that? I don't think there's a duty AT ALL to not "waste our time". You don't get to decide that for him.
There's always something "better" I could be doing. But I've got a FT job and 2 kids and a house to maintain...and *I* get to decide how I spend my 168 hours a week - nobody else.
So if I spend 10 hours exercising, 60 hours sleeping, 40 hours working, and 10 hours crocheting while watching old reruns of friends, it's none of your fucking business. Yeah, I could spend those 10 hours on Khan academy with my kids, or learn an instrument, or teach myself to program. So what?
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Kind of a strange reply on this site... and I'll completely disagree with you.
It's NOT ok because the same thing could be said about anything. My friend could be doing weed every day and be perfectly happy, except he'll be nearly broke living paycheck to paycheck.
You missed my post entirely. What we do with our time matters. It's the only thing we have control over. You don't get to mindlessly waste your time and say "it's ok".
My friend started out with a job that made twice as much as my salary after college. Now I make 5 x his salary, am able to FIRE, and can spend the rest of my life watching all the NFL games if I want, and not worry about money. My friend lives in an apartment, with very little in the way of life savings, and the only major property he owns is his used car. He will have to work the rest of his life...I'm not even sure it's possible because he has hit his cap in his career (a low cap due to the low level type of work he does compared to mine), and once he gets over 50+ of age he is going to find it awfully hard to find new jobs if he is laid off or fired because companies are hiring younger people at much less pay rather than overpaying him for the same type of work.
The opportunity cost of him spending 20 years of his prime doing things that add no value to his life has taken away from his station in life. I maximized / optimized my 20 years of my prime life to advance myself financially so I can rest the rest of my life if I wish.
That is not OK, to be in his station in life and be so far behind vs where he could be, had he adopted my mindset and valued his time properly to set himself ahead in life.
We all make choices in life, and we pay for those choices. It's foolish to numb yourself and say "it's ok" to do something that doesn't maximize your situation in real life, and put your head in the sand and ignore what you could do better.
I would have expected your reply on other forums, but not on MMM where people here are far more practical, wise, and realistic about what one needs to do in life to get ahead.
Okay this one, and some of your other comments...I want to agree with Ryan.
I think as people, we have a duty to ourselves to ... take care of ourselves? I mean the basics. Sleep, exercise, decent food. Work a job, pay our bills, etc.
But beyond that? I don't think there's a duty AT ALL to not "waste our time". You don't get to decide that for him.
There's always something "better" I could be doing. But I've got a FT job and 2 kids and a house to maintain...and *I* get to decide how I spend my 168 hours a week - nobody else.
So if I spend 10 hours exercising, 60 hours sleeping, 40 hours working, and 10 hours crocheting while watching old reruns of friends, it's none of your fucking business. Yeah, I could spend those 10 hours on Khan academy with my kids, or learn an instrument, or teach myself to program. So what?
Completely agree it's none of my fucking business. You can snort cocaine all day for all I care.
You completely missed my points and post.
This thread is about how to get ahead in life. Living obliviously without intention is not the way to get ahead in life. I do the basic things you mention, but I choose my free time activities intentionally, to improve my mind / skills so I am more effective in the rest of my life / work. This is why I am far more skilled / knowledgeable than most of my peers. I am able to out-work and out-earn them. I'm glad most other people are not like me...they don't work as hard as me, don't take advantage of the free time to their benefit. It makes me stand out and I have financial freedom as a result.
If you want to go and do drugs, get drunk, whatever ever floats your boat...go ahead. You don't need my permission.
The only thing I'll add is we live in a network of relationships. society. Your actions have impact on others. If you don't take care of yourself and end up costing millions / billions in unnecessary medical costs, those costs are passed on to me, a healthy person who still has medical insurance to avoid catastrophes in life.
Imagine a society where everyone was healthy as possible, happy as possible because they have financial security...that would be fucking bad ass.
But no, you fucking do what you want, without any responsibility for the consequences. More power to you.
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Settle down, Beavis.
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Settle down, Beavis.
Interesting. My last post in this thread. People don't seem to like the fact that actions have consequences / opportunity costs. I guess the truth hurts, and you have to resort to personal attacks.
My point was to optimize your free time for your advantage. A few seem to take my example the wrong way, perhaps triggered by their inadequate optimization of their time.
I love it...you keep doing less of what's successful...it makes people like me even more stand-outs and successful compared to you. It's far better for me (individually) if the vast majority of people live life obliviously, but worse for society as a whole.
Honestly this is what it's like dealing with kids...they don't want to hear the truth / reality, only self-affirming garbage even when it's not in their best interest.
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The action that had the biggest impact on my career was lying on my resume years ago.
Funny, I did the same thing. Didn't even think about it, but it was also one of the biggest positive impacts on my career. Not that I recommend anyone else doing the same. "Fake it 'til you make it" worked in my case. Sometimes talent is more important than experience.
Whatever you do. don't tell them what you actually made at your last job. I had an employer that asked that question. How stupid would I be to say I was making peanuts? I gave them a fair price and got that salary and then built upon that. That employer would take your low salary and give a couple thousand raise starting pay. They would screw you if you allowed them to basically.
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You completely missed my points and post.
Honestly this is what it's like dealing with kids...they don't want to hear the truth / reality, only self-affirming garbage even when it's not in their best interest.
Maybe you need to step back and re-read the previous replies to your posts and consider that maybe you're the one missing the point. Sometimes it's not everyone else that doesn't get it.
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Being born into a household with married parents, in the top quintile of the household income distribution. (Above about $50K for the year of my birth)
Not even close.
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A lot of people are mentioning being born lucky. I think the OP is going for actionable things you can do to move the needle. Original post mentions "things you have done" to impact your career. Since none of us can change what type of situation we were born into, probably not very useful. That said, the importance of a 2-parent household and the impact it has on the children is quite massive, lots of research on this.
For me, the action that I took that had the biggest impact (through a lot of luck, since I'm an introvert) is networking with the right people. You essentially become like those you surround yourself with. Success is largely surrounding yourself with those you want to be like. You've gotta find top mentors in whatever it is you're trying to become good at, then spend a lot of time around them. This has worked well for me in my career, and in my hobby pursuits (high level bridge).
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A lot of people are mentioning being born lucky. I think the OP is going for actionable things you can do to move the needle. Original post mentions "things you have done" to impact your career. Since none of us can change what type of situation we were born into, probably not very useful. That said, the importance of a 2-parent household and the impact it has on the children is quite massive, lots of research on this.
For me, the action that I took that had the biggest impact (through a lot of luck, since I'm an introvert) is networking with the right people. You essentially become like those you surround yourself with. Success is largely surrounding yourself with those you want to be like. You've gotta find top mentors in whatever it is you're trying to become good at, then spend a lot of time around them. This has worked well for me in my career, and in my hobby pursuits (high level bridge).
Good point. An amendment!
Going to college. Not even close.
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A lot of people are mentioning being born lucky. I think the OP is going for actionable things you can do to move the needle. Original post mentions "things you have done" to impact your career. Since none of us can change what type of situation we were born into, probably not very useful. That said, the importance of a 2-parent household and the impact it has on the children is quite massive, lots of research on this.
For me, the action that I took that had the biggest impact (through a lot of luck, since I'm an introvert) is networking with the right people. You essentially become like those you surround yourself with. Success is largely surrounding yourself with those you want to be like. You've gotta find top mentors in whatever it is you're trying to become good at, then spend a lot of time around them. This has worked well for me in my career, and in my hobby pursuits (high level bridge).
The corollary of this is knowing how to cut shit people out of your life - lazy people, unkind people, complainers, leeches and passive-aggressive people. Get rid of them, drop them, shun their company. As you say, you become like those you surround with; by osmosis, you pick up their traits, good or bad. Learning to draw boundaries and learning to drop negative people is a great first step.
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Left a low-paying career to go back to grad school and do what I really want to do. Won a substantial full ride scholarship for my 3rd-5th year of my doctorate. Worked hard, been excellent at what I do, always learning, etc. But, really - going back to school resulted in 4x higher salary than what I was making from my undergrad degree.
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- Got a degree in a field that was in demand (BS in Computer Science).
- Got good at my craft (software engineering).
- Changed jobs multiple times when my salary sank below market norms,
EDITed to add - but also during the great recession I kept my head down with a below average salary when the market sucked and bided my time until I could fix the salary while working hard to improve my skills.
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Sheesh, I bet someone is the life of the party. But hey, I'm just simple-minded I guess.
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The corollary of this is knowing how to cut shit people out of your life - lazy people, unkind people, complainers, leeches and passive-aggressive people. Get rid of them, drop them, shun their company. As you say, you become like those you surround with; by osmosis, you pick up their traits, good or bad. Learning to draw boundaries and learning to drop negative people is a great first step.
Also, if you allow these people space in your life they WILL resent your discipline, ambition, and success and they WILL undermine your efforts. They will WANT you to fail, they can't help themselves.
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Stop seeing yourself as a special snowflake and see yourself as a commodity that can and should be bought and sold to the highest bidder. Being willing to move (change states) and find someone who wants me bad enough to pay me well. Rinse and repeat after you get stale.
Make friends in your community/profession. Use word of mouth to get better jobs.
Be a leader. Or have leadership traits. Or learn to be a leader.
Being willing to live in a HCOLA. Even with increased costs, with a 2 working household, we make far more here in the PNW than we did in our previous state.
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Nothing has made me more money then being friends with people who are technical. Almost all my high paying jobs have been from referral from friends.
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Being willing to live in a HCOLA. Even with increased costs, with a 2 working household, we make far more here in the PNW than we did in our previous state.
Good point, this was actually a big one for me, too. HCOL areas can be a savings playground for the frugal. If you're in a field where your salary compensates for the AVERAGE person's COL, being above average (financially), and willing to step outside the box, it means accelerated savings.
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As a counterpoint to the bulk of the advice above, I feel like the most important thing I did was to be born lucky.
Despite being raised poor, I liked school and I read lots of books as a kid, and some of those books taught me that life is an open buffet table to anyone willing to put in the hard work. I learned to work the system, I got good grades, I aced the high school tests like the SAT, and everything else was automatic from there. Like clockwork, success just unfolded for me.
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Wow, fantastic post sol, and one that resonated a lot with me. The details are different, but ultimately I definitely feel like my success has been due to being born lucky. I didn't choose my parents. I didn't choose exactly which chromosomes I would inherit from them. I didn't choose to be born in the U.S., and in an area of that country with low crime and good schools on top of it. I didn't choose to invest public money in roads, intellectual property rights protections, relatively stable social and legal structures, or any other things that let me study things I was naturally good at. I didn't choose for math and science (things I enjoy and am good at) to be relatively well compensated fields. I feel like I was born on third base.
But of the things "I" did that had the biggest impact were choosing to work high visibility projects that demanded extremely long hours over a few weeks with no extra compensation. While I didn't get paid for those projects with overtime money, it all came around during raise, bonus, and promotion time. For more than half my career I've been ranked in the top 10% of my pay band and it's largely due to people multiple levels above my boss seeing me in late working on those projects that were important to them. I'd say that on average I've worked 200-300 extra hours every other year over about a decade, but it's raised my compensation by far more than if I had been paid for those hours. It has also opened a lot of doors to more interesting work, and I used that to get a super chill job for the last year and a half as I coast in to FIRE.
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If you're born lucky you're born lucky. You don't owe anyone for having been so and you don't need to downplay your achievements simply because you're smart. Perhaps if all your achievements are genes-related (e.g, you are a tremendously good sprinter, or you are incredibly beautiful like Zoolander) then there might be an argument that you owe your genes, but otherwise I feel like the "I was born lucky" argument just tends to confound the fact that, even aside from genes, you still need the willpower and wherewithal to do something with them.
As for roads, intellectual property and social stability, most people in a first world country have the same opportunities; they just fail to make anything of them.
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The more times I keep seeing this thread pop up, the more I think about it, and the more I lean towards a slightly different interpretation of the title question. The single biggest impact to my career and salary was deciding to retire at age 41. I figure I conservatively gave up at least two, maybe three million dollars in today's salary, and I absolutely torpedoed my career to the bottom of the ocean.
I also couldn't be happier about that decision. No regrets.
Was this thread operating on the assumption that we were only supposed to talk about the big impacts that increased our salary and advanced our careers? Because it sure does seem easier to make a big impact in a hurry in the other direction.
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showing confidence.
At a interview they had doubts, I was told I was so youngh and had only 2,5 years experience.
I quickly improvised and said: I worked 70 hours a week so it counts dubble. And I learn fast so I actually have 10 years of experience. He had laughes and I got the job with the same salary as the 40 and 50 year olds.
Job hopping helps.
And it helped a lot working on satudays 150%. and sundays double the pay.
And I got two jobs because you dont get extra money for vacation hours , pension etc in our field if you work more then 40 hours a week. bud you get it with two jobs :)
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I got a PhD in my research field. A master's would have taken less time, but the doctorate was paid in full by the university, plus a living stipend (and it was truly satisfying work). Then I escaped the hamster wheel of academic research to work as a freelancer in a related field. I make as much as I did as a postdoc researcher while working half as many hours, can work at home, and have control over my own schedule. I've built an excellent reputation for myself by producing meticulous work, always meeting client deadlines, and being professional in all communications, and I'm often offered more work than I can feasibly accept.
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The more times I keep seeing this thread pop up, the more I think about it, and the more I lean towards a slightly different interpretation of the title question. The single biggest impact to my career and salary was deciding to retire at age 41. I figure I conservatively gave up at least two, maybe three million dollars in today's salary, and I absolutely torpedoed my career to the bottom of the ocean.
I also couldn't be happier about that decision. No regrets.
Was this thread operating on the assumption that we were only supposed to talk about the big impacts that increased our salary and advanced our careers? Because it sure does seem easier to make a big impact in a hurry in the other direction.
You know - reading this really made me think about the topics question in another factor, that may be somewhat hard to put into words.
I am 30, not yet FIRE’d, but deciding to retire early has also snowballed my career in many more aspects. My drive to retire early has specifically given me more drive to excel in my job, work harder, more hours, etc. All of this makes me a better employee. To my employers, they look at this very much of a, “wow, this guy sure as hell is valuable and contributes to the project.” What they don’t know, is that my effort is driven more towards moving up, increasing my pay, just so I can leave sooner.
If I didn’t have FIRE in mind, I don’t know that I would work so hard. I don’t know that I would pick up all these extra hours, days, etc. of work. While working Saturdays gives me an extra days pay, it also allows me to catch up on my work, learn more, excel more, and add a positive impact in my employers eyes.
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Have the mindset to always be learning. Don't waste valuable free time on mindless entertainment like watching sports (fun I know), reality TV, junk news, useless entertainment on the internet.
Your biggest asset / commodity is the time you have. Most people under-value their time and seek to numb their brains with entertaining but useless stuff, like the things I listed above.
I have a friend who watches almost every NFL game religiously. Several 2-3 hour games every weekend. I watch no NFL games, but go to the gym 2 hours several times per week. The way I spent my time is far more valuable than my friend's time spent.
After 20 years of doing the same habits, I have 20 years of health / fitness built up...my friend has watched 20 years of NFL. What has he gained? What have I gained? The difference is massive.
I'm able to FIRE if I want, my friend will be working for the rest of his life (he also doesn't listen to other advice I give him in terms of career, life etc).
Think strategically about your life, your time, and what you need to do to improve yourself every day.
Why does it have to be either/or? I watch several NFL games per week and I go to the gym 3-4 times per week.