What's your FIRE figure?

[Manchester]

I'm interested to see how frugal the average person on this blog is and if there's an obvious average amongst us.

I'm asking for your honest goal whether that's low or high.  Please try not to be judgemental of people, I don't want people to feel pressured to putting a lower number than what they're aiming for.  Please convert your currency into USD if you're using another currency.

[rantk81]

When I first began the journey seeking FIRE, my goal was approximately 800K.  However, I've continually moved the goal-posts, and now I am targeting 2-2.5M.  Life changes over time . . .

[RWD]

Some similar previous polls, for reference:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/family-fire-number/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/how-big-was-your-stash-when-you-re%27d/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/poll-what-is-your-fire-income-target/

[mathlete]

Yay! I have the modal outcome! (so far)

When I first began the journey seeking FIRE, my goal was approximately 800K.  However, I've continually moved the goal-posts, and now I am targeting 2-2.5M.  Life changes over time . . .

Agreed. It's good to stay flexible. Creature comforts I can do without at 30 may be indispensable at 50.

[Zikoris]

For our household, probably somewhere between 700-800K. That would easily support our current lifestyle, which is absolutely lavish in everything that matters to us. My partner also intends to continue his freelance editing to a degree with authors he particularly likes.

[wageslave23]

OP are you looking for total NW (house value plus investments plus any other income) or just stash money that pays your expenses once FIRE? My FIRE expenses were very low so my stash wasn't big but I had a paid off house that was part of my NW - and which I also planned to sell after I Fired and downsize to a LCOL area.

I picked $400-$500k mainly because I currently spend between approx $12k - $20k per year (no debt, paid off house, no kids, and free medical) but spend more if I travel or have any unforseen expenses like repairs. My current FIRE income is $2500/month but much of that gets reinvested right now. That doesn't count my house value so NW is much higher.

I think NW is a better comparison number since then it doesn't matter as much whether someone pays off their house or not.

[Highbeam]

Some of us are fortunate enough to have pensions coming on too so that makes a difference.

[TheFrenchCat]

Wow, I'm surprised to see how many are well above 1mil.  I picked 1 mil, because it'd provide more than we've ever spent in one year.  Our FI number is probably about 750k before we're done paying child related expenses and a bit north of 500k after that's done.  But we'd want more of a buffer and the possible option to do more travel and donating before we retire.  Also, we do live in a pretty lcol area, so 40k goes really far. 

[Fomerly known as something]

I didn’t vote.  I have an immediate pension with lifetime health insurance available in 5 years at age 47.  I also have a nice NW that is continuing to grow for the next few years.  I admit this has lead to so recent modest lifestyle inflation that will probably stay around.  If I didn’t have the pension factor I’d probably make some different choices.

[Loren Ver]

We FIRED in the 801k range in 2019.  We went out a little lean to have 36k per year, but were aiming for a date and willing to be flexible in our draw downs as needed.  Even with COVID and taking money out for living we are now within spitting distance of 1 Mil.

[Bloop Bloop]

I want passive income of about $80k (AUD = $55k USD) per year during retirement so at a conservative estimate of 3.5% net returns (5% gross returns but with tax) that requires me to have A$2.3m saved up plus a family house which generates no money and that is about $1.3m in my city (houses are expensive as fuck) so total assets A$3.6m which is USD $2.5m

I have no intention of ever drawing down principal

[Travis]

I picked 1.5MM+, and I'm expecting a pension in three years equivalent to $1.25MM.  We're looking at retirement locations that will require somewhere from $1.3MM to $1.6MM.  I'll have a stache built up by then that might be worth $1.6MM on its own.

[Roland of Gilead]

I picked 1.5m because that is what we retired with but it turns out so far I have only needed $100,000 since I have managed to generate over $80,000 a year off of a $100,000 taxable account for the past 6 years.

It is like a magic box, I take money out for living expenses and it just refills.

[former player]

Some of us are fortunate enough to have pensions coming on too so that makes a difference.

Pensions can be given a capital value either through equivalent annuity cost or 25x expected payment.

[Fomerly known as something]

Some of us are fortunate enough to have pensions coming on too so that makes a difference.

Pensions can be given a capital value either through equivalent annuity cost or 25x expected payment.

Yes but as I mentioned because I have a pension my stash is going to likely be bigger than if I happened to just work toward FIRE.  (Not counting 25x my expected pension amount).  I could Fire pretty comfortably on my assets today but I did the math a few years ago and it would be “giving up” over a million when taking into consideration health benefits as well.  So I will have more than my FIRE figure, which means I have upped my expected spend (to include higher charitable giving) when I fIRE because I will have the money.

[flyingaway]

This sort of poll is difficult to make meaningful sense as we saw before. Single vs. family, pension vs. no pension, house vs. no house, rental vs. no rental, living in San Francisco vs. living in Ching Mai (Thailand), part-time job vs. true retire, etc.

[PDXTabs]

My lean FIRE number is $610k US, but I will probably be willing to contract when I feel like it to increase my stash after that with an upper limit of maybe $2 million US.

Single with grown kids at FIRE.

[DadJokes]

Some of us are fortunate enough to have pensions coming on too so that makes a difference.

Pensions can be given a capital value either through equivalent annuity cost or 25x expected payment.

Yes but as I mentioned because I have a pension my stash is going to likely be bigger than if I happened to just work toward FIRE.  (Not counting 25x my expected pension amount).  I could Fire pretty comfortably on my assets today but I did the math a few years ago and it would be “giving up” over a million when taking into consideration health benefits as well.  So I will have more than my FIRE figure, which means I have upped my expected spend (to include higher charitable giving) when I fIRE because I will have the money.

I haven't included our pensions in our FIRE number, largely because I just don't know how to valuate them. From reading the annual statement, I can't tell if the projected monthly payment is based on if she retired with the current balance or if she worked with the same income until 60.

She only has an account balance of $13k, though her annual statement shows a projected payout (in 2051) of $1,300/month. Even with inflation, that seems like a lot with such a small balance. At 5% growth, that would only be a $59k balance at the age, so $1,300/month would be over 25% of that balance in a year. Based on that, I'm guessing it assumes that she works until she's 60.

If she worked until she was 60 and had the same pay, her balance would be $202k. $15,600/yr payout makes a bit more sense there (still approximately a 13% SWR though).

Hopefully we'll know more when her annual statement comes out this month, since it'll be the first statement since she became vested.

[Manchester]

OP are you looking for total NW (house value plus investments plus any other income) or just stash money that pays your expenses once FIRE? My FIRE expenses were very low so my stash wasn't big but I had a paid off house that was part of my NW - and which I also planned to sell after I Fired and downsize to a LCOL area.

I picked $400-$500k mainly because I currently spend between approx $12k - $20k per year (no debt, paid off house, no kids, and free medical) but spend more if I travel or have any unforseen expenses like repairs. My current FIRE income is $2500/month but much of that gets reinvested right now. That doesn't count my house value so NW is much higher.

Hi, apologies for the delay in getting back to you on this.  I'd like total N/W including home value, please.  Just to remove any ambiguity more than anything.

[Manchester]

This sort of poll is difficult to make meaningful sense as we saw before. Single vs. family, pension vs. no pension, house vs. no house, rental vs. no rental, living in San Francisco vs. living in Ching Mai (Thailand), part-time job vs. true retire, etc.

Yes, everyone will apply their individual variables.  That will lead to unscientific results.  My intrigue was more focussed towards the overall frugality of the forum.  It's interesting to see the number of people wanting to FIRE with a net worth above $2.5m.  I'm sure everyone within that category knows they could/could have FIRE'd easily on less (regardless of their individual scenarios i.e. family size, location).

Is the overall steep figure related to lifestyle (wanting $100k pa) or the average tolerance towards risk (FIREing on a 3% etc).

[js82]

I'm figuring on somewhere in the 1.5-2M range.

At current expenses and 4% SWR my number would be closer to 1M, but I'm not comfortable planning on a 4% SWR in the current state of the market, and would like to have some headroom to have fun during retirement.  Also, there's a reasonable chance I may move to somewhere with a higher cost of living in the future, so I'm planning around expenses higher than what I have currently.

I don't necessarily see myself going into full retirement - but changing careers/relocating to maximize my enjoyment of life while not worrying as much about income are both distinct possibilities.

[Imma]

This sort of poll is difficult to make meaningful sense as we saw before. Single vs. family, pension vs. no pension, house vs. no house, rental vs. no rental, living in San Francisco vs. living in Ching Mai (Thailand), part-time job vs. true retire, etc.

Yes, everyone will apply their individual variables.  That will lead to unscientific results.  My intrigue was more focussed towards the overall frugality of the forum.  It's interesting to see the number of people wanting to FIRE with a net worth above $2.5m.  I'm sure everyone within that category knows they could/could have FIRE'd easily on less (regardless of their individual scenarios i.e. family size, location).

Is the overall steep figure related to lifestyle (wanting $100k pa) or the average tolerance towards risk (FIREing on a 3% etc).

I'm looking at €300k invested -> €1000 gross a month to spend. That's basically what I spend now and I expect to spend less after FIRE. I will receive state pension in old age and some money from company pensions. Right now it's still too early to say how much that would be but fairly likely more than €1000. I'm not looking to quit working when I FIRE, I just want to quit working for a boss. I have my side hustle that I plan to continue / expand. Due to my personal circumstances I want to keep my business a side hustle until I'm FI. I didn't include the equity in my house because I really have no idea what the value would be when I FIRE. And we wouldn't be able to release that equity either because the type of house we live in is basically the cheapest you can get around here. We can't downsize from here.

This is just my own personal plan, Mr Imma wants to keep working. That's this choice. We keep our money separate and plan to always keep it that way.

[ctuser1]

I *need* $50k/year to declare myself Lean-FI.
(Seriously, I have looked at it hard and can't figure out how to cut any more. I feel somewhat ashamed at this figure looking at what others are capable of dong - but let's not rub it in).

I spend $80k/year right now (including cash buckets I set aside for amortized long term expenses).

I would *like* $100k/year after-tax to declare myself Fat-FI, with the ability to live anywhere I want (even VHCOL areas) and and even allow for some lifestyle-creep-buffer just in case.

I don't subscribe to the validity of 4% SWR for a retirement period that can very well last > 30 years. My own, personal, figure is 2.5%.

Backing it out, my Lean-FI point is $2MM, and Fat-FI point is $4MM.

I don't plan to RE.

[Zikoris]

I *need* $50k/year to declare myself Lean-FI.
(Seriously, I have looked at it hard and can't figure out how to cut any more. I feel somewhat ashamed at this figure looking at what others are capable of dong - but let's not rub it in).

Not trying to be mean, but a big part of MMM is cutting out the bullshit. You absolutely 100% could easily cut that, as many people have done - and by "many" I mean at least about 50% of the US population, since that's about the average household income. I'm not saying you have to, by any means, but man, lying to yourself is just not good. If you want to spend a lot, that's cool, but there's just no reason to pretend that it's a necessity. Just be honest with yourself. You have options, whether or not you want to take them.

[We be free if we try]

I’ll be at $1.75m, but chose the upper tier. And given my VHCOL (and my decision to stay here close to my community), that feels like a minimum for feeling reasonably comfortable. Not that I’m lean FI. $1m of that will essentially pay for housing - either a 2br apartment rental, or 2 br condo. Or, a 2br fixer small house would eat a little more of the stash than that, including insurance and taxes. 2 Older teens with me part-time, college largely paid for, from separate buckets. Maybe my expenses will drop once they’re fully launched, but most likely I’ll feel more freedom to travel, etc.

[FIRE 20/20]

I *need* $50k/year to declare myself Lean-FI.
(Seriously, I have looked at it hard and can't figure out how to cut any more. I feel somewhat ashamed at this figure looking at what others are capable of dong - but let's not rub it in).

Not trying to be mean, but a big part of MMM is cutting out the bullshit. You absolutely 100% could easily cut that, as many people have done - and by "many" I mean at least about 50% of the US population, since that's about the average household income. I'm not saying you have to, by any means, but man, lying to yourself is just not good. If you want to spend a lot, that's cool, but there's just no reason to pretend that it's a necessity. Just be honest with yourself. You have options, whether or not you want to take them.

Not necessarily.  Given the past and ongoing threats to completely invalidate the ACA with nothing in place other than chaos if it's actually struck down, it's not unreasonable for people in the U.S. to budget a significant amount for health insurance.  My budget includes $1k in medical, dental, and vision spending each month for 2 people.  Adding in the marginal tax rates (both federal and state) and you could be looking at a budget that includes nearly $15k per person for just health coverage and taxes.  If @ctuser1 lives in a VHCOL area and their $50k includes rent and non-ACA health insurance for multiple people, then that might be an extremely slim budget rather than a fat budget.  There are lots of other potential considerations.  I have a friend who has a very high FIRE budget, but that's partly due to having a child with special needs who will never be able to live on their own.  Not much fat to cut there, even if they're shooting for a lot more than $1M. 

[Buffaloski Boris]

Could we add “don’t have a FIRE number” ? There are some of us who don’t have one.

[American GenX]

OP are you looking for total NW (house value plus investments plus any other income) or just stash money that pays your expenses once FIRE? My FIRE expenses were very low so my stash wasn't big but I had a paid off house that was part of my NW - and which I also planned to sell after I Fired and downsize to a LCOL area.

I picked $400-$500k mainly because I currently spend between approx $12k - $20k per year (no debt, paid off house, no kids, and free medical) but spend more if I travel or have any unforseen expenses like repairs. My current FIRE income is $2500/month but much of that gets reinvested right now. That doesn't count my house value so NW is much higher.

I think NW is a better comparison number since then it doesn't matter as much whether someone pays off their house or not.

But it probably matters as far as how much your FIRE income will be. If my total NW including house equity is $1mm but $600k of that is house value and I only have $400k to draw my 4% from ($16k/year) then that's all I can spend unless I tap that house equity somehow. So for the OPs question I thought they were asking about the amount someone needed to cover expenses not NW but wasn't sure.

Agreed.  These polls are pretty much worthless for various reasons, and even worse when throwing in net worth instead of just stache.  And some people who have pensions try to give it a net worth value, even though it doesn't have a lump cash payout, while others would not include it.

And there are other reasons why this type of poll is worthless, but someone else already said pretty much what I was going to say as I read further down the thread:

This sort of poll is difficult to make meaningful sense as we saw before. Single vs. family, pension vs. no pension, house vs. no house, rental vs. no rental, living in San Francisco vs. living in Ching Mai (Thailand), part-time job vs. true retire, etc.

Yes this ^. Expenses and FIRE number is going to be MUCH different between each person based on so many variables that any number is pretty much useless. A single person with no debt, paid of house, no dependents, free medical, no disability, no elderly parents to care for, no car, and genetally low expenses might only need $500/month to cover basic expenses. While others have very different circumstances and expenses.

[American GenX]

Could we add “don’t have a FIRE number” ? There are some of us who don’t have one.

Ha.  I think you could include me as well.  My FIRE timeline has had more to do with the uncertainty of the ACA than anything happening with my stash.  My stash has gone up 20% since I felt I already had plenty enough saved well over a year ago, but there's no certainty in the near future on the ACA matter, so that's why I've kept working.

[Goldendog777]

Changed vote to include paid off house.  $1.45M investments and cash, $1.95 with paid off house.  We are house heavy and will at some point downside.

[ctuser1]

I *need* $50k/year to declare myself Lean-FI.
(Seriously, I have looked at it hard and can't figure out how to cut any more. I feel somewhat ashamed at this figure looking at what others are capable of dong - but let's not rub it in).

Not trying to be mean, but a big part of MMM is cutting out the bullshit. You absolutely 100% could easily cut that, as many people have done - and by "many" I mean at least about 50% of the US population, since that's about the average household income. I'm not saying you have to, by any means, but man, lying to yourself is just not good. If you want to spend a lot, that's cool, but there's just no reason to pretend that it's a necessity. Just be honest with yourself. You have options, whether or not you want to take them.

Not necessarily.  Given the past and ongoing threats to completely invalidate the ACA with nothing in place other than chaos if it's actually struck down, it's not unreasonable for people in the U.S. to budget a significant amount for health insurance.  My budget includes $1k in medical, dental, and vision spending each month for 2 people.  Adding in the marginal tax rates (both federal and state) and you could be looking at a budget that includes nearly $15k per person for just health coverage and taxes.  If @ctuser1 lives in a VHCOL area and their $50k includes rent and non-ACA health insurance for multiple people, then that might be an extremely slim budget rather than a fat budget.  There are lots of other potential considerations.  I have a friend who has a very high FIRE budget, but that's partly due to having a child with special needs who will never be able to live on their own.  Not much fat to cut there, even if they're shooting for a lot more than $1M.

Exactly.

I live in CT. I go to https://www.accesshealthct.com to price out Obamacare plans, and the Silver plan from Anthem for the family (4 people) is $1800/month (=$21k). This comes with an OOP Max of $16,300. This is with no subsidy.

There are two separate levels of subsidy and tax credits to consider. Even with a $100k income, I see that the total costs are coming down to half due to state subsidies (it shows up as "tax credits" on the website - no idea what it is).

But even if I consider annul premium to *only* to be $5k, there is the $16k OOP Max to contend with - that doesn't change no matter the subsidies.

Add in property tax for our house of $6000, roughly $5k in utilities (hopefully will go down after I get solar), amortized costs for fixing stuff in the house (my estimate: $5k/year) and $50k starts to look very slim.

I know there are many others who survive on this or less. I don't know how many of them are a family of 4 in CT (or equivalent HCOL location)? The ones that are, deserve my respect.

[ender]

Could we add “don’t have a FIRE number” ? There are some of us who don’t have one.

+1

I mean I could pick $1M or $1.25M as a "sure, why not" number but the reality is, until we figure out how many kids we want to have and what their situation is, where we want to live, it's all a guess.

And realistically it doesn't change much of what our gameplan is either. Try to make and save as much as possible.

The older I get, the more clarity I have around the quality of that guess but right now it's pretty much a guess.

[Zikoris]

I *need* $50k/year to declare myself Lean-FI.
(Seriously, I have looked at it hard and can't figure out how to cut any more. I feel somewhat ashamed at this figure looking at what others are capable of dong - but let's not rub it in).

Not trying to be mean, but a big part of MMM is cutting out the bullshit. You absolutely 100% could easily cut that, as many people have done - and by "many" I mean at least about 50% of the US population, since that's about the average household income. I'm not saying you have to, by any means, but man, lying to yourself is just not good. If you want to spend a lot, that's cool, but there's just no reason to pretend that it's a necessity. Just be honest with yourself. You have options, whether or not you want to take them.

Not necessarily.  Given the past and ongoing threats to completely invalidate the ACA with nothing in place other than chaos if it's actually struck down, it's not unreasonable for people in the U.S. to budget a significant amount for health insurance.  My budget includes $1k in medical, dental, and vision spending each month for 2 people.  Adding in the marginal tax rates (both federal and state) and you could be looking at a budget that includes nearly $15k per person for just health coverage and taxes.  If @ctuser1 lives in a VHCOL area and their $50k includes rent and non-ACA health insurance for multiple people, then that might be an extremely slim budget rather than a fat budget.  There are lots of other potential considerations.  I have a friend who has a very high FIRE budget, but that's partly due to having a child with special needs who will never be able to live on their own.  Not much fat to cut there, even if they're shooting for a lot more than $1M.

Exactly.

I live in CT. I go to https://www.accesshealthct.com to price out Obamacare plans, and the Silver plan from Anthem for the family (4 people) is $1800/month (=$21k). This comes with an OOP Max of $16,300. This is with no subsidy.

There are two separate levels of subsidy and tax credits to consider. Even with a $100k income, I see that the total costs are coming down to half due to state subsidies (it shows up as "tax credits" on the website - no idea what it is).

But even if I consider annul premium to *only* to be $5k, there is the $16k OOP Max to contend with - that doesn't change no matter the subsidies.

Add in property tax for our house of $6000, roughly $5k in utilities (hopefully will go down after I get solar), amortized costs for fixing stuff in the house (my estimate: $5k/year) and $50k starts to look very slim.

I know there are many others who survive on this or less. I don't know how many of them are a family of 4 in CT (or equivalent HCOL location)? The ones that are, deserve my respect.

I'm no expert on foreign health care policy, but a few things come to mind.

1. Unless the kids have been bitten by vampires and are eternally young, presumably you're not going to pay for four people's healthcare for the rest of your life. So figures for a family of four are not a great number to use for planning a fifty or sixty year retirement.

2. Isn't the cost at least somewhat related to income? Which a FIRE person would presumably have not that much of? I'd be curious what the numbers would look like for a FIRE person whose only income was from investments.

Aside from healthcare, the housing would be another thing to look at. Move. Downsize. Look into alternative options. People act like this stuff is just some fixed cost chiseled into stone. Nobody is chained down to their home. Yes, if a person insists on living in a fancy expensive home they will have trouble making ends meet on 50K, but living in a fancy expensive home is not a necessity. I'm not saying it's wrong or that a person shouldn't do it, just that they should stop lying to themselves and pretending it's beyond their control.

It's just bizarre to me when people say "I just can't figure out how to cut anymore" when literally half the population already lives on less than that due to ONLY EARNING THAT MUCH, including in whatever place you live that you consider too expensive to do that. There are not very many places in the US that have zero lower income people.

[soccerluvof4]

My goal was 2.5M and paid for House when I fire'd a little over 5 years ago. That held true the only difference since being fire'd is I went the opposite direction and doubled the value of our paid for house with a move.

[FIRE 20/20]

I'm no expert on foreign health care policy, but a few things come to mind.

1. Unless the kids have been bitten by vampires and are eternally young, presumably you're not going to pay for four people's healthcare for the rest of your life. So figures for a family of four are not a great number to use for planning a fifty or sixty year retirement.

2. Isn't the cost at least somewhat related to income? Which a FIRE person would presumably have not that much of? I'd be curious what the numbers would look like for a FIRE person whose only income was from investments.

Today, yes.  However the situation around the U.S. health care system is extremely tenuous.  Within the past week or so, the Trump administration presented a briefing to the U.S. Supreme Court  to strike down the entire ACA.  If that happens, then the subsidies for people with low incomes will disappear, and someone living on $25k a year might need to spend $15k just on health care. 
 https://abcnews.go.com/US/amid-pandemic-trump-administration-asks-supreme-court-overturn/story?id=71466593

If they succeed, it's plausible that the court might extend the current system for a while to allow time for a replacement, but that's not guaranteed.  If the law is truly struck down then health care costs of $1k / person each month are possible.  I have about $25k / year in the budget to account for that for myself and my partner.  As long as the ACA sticks around we're waaaay under that, but if someone has young kids it's not unreasonable to budget $50k/ year for health care alone until they're on their own.  If that $50k expense is going to be around for 10, 15, or more years then it requires a substantial 'stache to support it.  I think it's difficult for people outside the U.S. to grasp how stupid our health care system is.  It's absurd.

But my point is more general than that.  A $50k budget may be absurdly excessive, but it might also be totally inadequate.  If one has pre-existing health issues, then saving a LOT of extra money might be necessary in the U.S. in case the ACA is struck down.  There are a lot of other potential expenses we don't know about if we just have the top line budget.  If a $50k budget includes $1k/month in restaurant spending then I agree with you.  But if it includes tens of thousands a year for care for a disabled child, then they might have already cut everything to the bone.  Those are obviously extremes, but the point remains that without knowing the budget I'm not willing to say that $50k is excessive.   

[secondcor521]

@FIRE 20/20, you should be able to get cost sharing reductions (CSRs) which should reduce the max OOP if you reduce your estimated income below 250% of the FPL for your family size.  I don't know if it is possible for you to get your income level that low (and still live in CT), but it does help a lot.

My FIRE number was a paid off home and car, 25x expenses adjusted for various things (lower federal taxes, child support going away at a certain point), plus enough set aside for college for my three kids.  I hit that situation in 2014, but the job was going OK so I stayed on until it got bad, and then I FIREd in 2016.

Since then I've been fortunate.  I have good health, my kids collectively chose less expensive colleges than I predicted and got several good scholarships, I received an inheritance from my Mom, I picked up an easy side gig, I've learned how to optimize my taxes even more, and the market has gone up.  So now I'm at about a 0.68% net withdrawal rate.

[Morning Glory]

At current spend I need about 750k plus enough to pay off the house using a drawdown calculation. I picked 1-1.25 million because my current house is worth a little over 400k, but I might get burned out on work and decide to move to a cheaper house to be able to fire sooner.

I have a small pension also (they don't tell you the lump sum because it is tied to interest rates for some reason???) And also I don't know if it is inflation adjusted or not, but it says if I leave right now I can get $900 per month when I'm 65, and this will increase with each year I stay there (it would be nice to know if it is in today's dollars or 2046 dollars). I am thinking of this as a safety margin just like social security.

I also can get retiree medical (with a premium, not free) if I stay there until I'm 55, but I'm not sure if it is worth it. I hope we get universal healthcare before then.

[Buffaloski Boris]

Could we add “don’t have a FIRE number” ? There are some of us who don’t have one.

+1

I mean I could pick $1M or $1.25M as a "sure, why not" number but the reality is, until we figure out how many kids we want to have and what their situation is, where we want to live, it's all a guess.

And realistically it doesn't change much of what our gameplan is either. Try to make and save as much as possible.

The older I get, the more clarity I have around the quality of that guess but right now it's pretty much a guess.

In our case, pensions are the issue. We’re blessed: we could live on those without much if any difficulty. So what’s the point in having “a number” in that scenario?

[Missy B]

OP are you looking for total NW (house value plus investments plus any other income) or just stash money that pays your expenses once FIRE? My FIRE expenses were very low so my stash wasn't big but I had a paid off house that was part of my NW - and which I also planned to sell after I Fired and downsize to a LCOL area.

I picked $400-$500k mainly because I currently spend between approx $12k - $20k per year (no debt, paid off house, no kids, and free medical) but spend more if I travel or have any unforseen expenses like repairs. My current FIRE income is $2500/month but much of that gets reinvested right now. That doesn't count my house value so NW is much higher.

I think NW is a better comparison number since then it doesn't matter as much whether someone pays off their house or not.

But it probably matters as far as how much your FIRE income will be. If my total NW including house equity is $1mm but $600k of that is house value and I only have $400k to draw my 4% from ($16k/year) then that's all I can spend unless I tap that house equity somehow. So for the OPs question I thought they were asking about the amount someone needed to cover expenses not NW but wasn't sure.

This. There is no consistency on the boards with whether or not their FIRE number includes their house, and I don't think it should, for the reason Spartana named.

As far as comparison for the purposes of these boards, including the value of your home in you FIRE NW number makes any comparison with others worthless, because we are all in different markets, and don't even know which market the others are in.

I live in an extremely expensive market that is not especially stable for renters. If I include the value of the modest home we'll need, my partner and I would have a joint fire NW of about 2.5 million, but we'll actually be living off of 700-800K. I hope. That is *so* much different than someone who has a nice big house that is worth 500K and is living off the proceeds of 2 million.

[Missy B]

With respect to medical, being Canadian has I figure, cut between 10 and 15 years off my FIRE date.
I'm self-employed, so I would have had to pay my own high premiums, or gone without and lived with the uncertainty in the knowledge that an accident could destroy my finances.
I would have been afraid to retire early, knowing that ongoing insurance costs were substantial and knowing  need for an extra $$ buffer set aside for medical in case of coverage issues with the insurer. I would have probably worked and extra 2-3 years just for that buffer.

[duyen]

These are our monthly expenses in retirement

Basic Living expenses for wife and me: 3k
Money set aside to support kids if they need: 4k
ACA surprise fund or general buffer: 2k

Total: 9k / month which would need 2.7M

If we buy a 600k house then including home expenses we would need ~3.6m

If we don't have any kids support money or aca stays and we rent in a VLCOL then we would only need 4k or 1.25m which we exactly have now

[FIRE 20/20]

@FIRE 20/20, you should be able to get cost sharing reductions (CSRs) which should reduce the max OOP if you reduce your estimated income below 250% of the FPL for your family size.  I don't know if it is possible for you to get your income level that low (and still live in CT), but it does help a lot.

Yes, I'm far below 250% and do qualify.  However, before I FIREd I created a budget that allowed me to be able to cover the full cost of health insurance in case the ACA is overturned by the Supreme Court or if it's otherwise changed or eliminated.  As long as the ACA stays around that's a large safety buffer built into my plans because I'll be well under my overall budget in FIRE. 

[Travis]

Could we add “don’t have a FIRE number” ? There are some of us who don’t have one.

+1

I mean I could pick $1M or $1.25M as a "sure, why not" number but the reality is, until we figure out how many kids we want to have and what their situation is, where we want to live, it's all a guess.

And realistically it doesn't change much of what our gameplan is either. Try to make and save as much as possible.

The older I get, the more clarity I have around the quality of that guess but right now it's pretty much a guess.

In our case, pensions are the issue. We’re blessed: we could live on those without much if any difficulty. So what’s the point in having “a number” in that scenario?

It's still a good idea to know how much your lifestyle costs, even if you easily have those costs covered.

[Fomerly known as something]

Could we add “don’t have a FIRE number” ? There are some of us who don’t have one.

+1

I mean I could pick $1M or $1.25M as a "sure, why not" number but the reality is, until we figure out how many kids we want to have and what their situation is, where we want to live, it's all a guess.

And realistically it doesn't change much of what our gameplan is either. Try to make and save as much as possible.

The older I get, the more clarity I have around the quality of that guess but right now it's pretty much a guess.

In our case, pensions are the issue. We’re blessed: we could live on those without much if any difficulty. So what’s the point in having “a number” in that scenario?

It's still a good idea to know how much your lifestyle costs, even if you easily have those costs covered.

But the poll asked how much in assets do I need to fire not my annual spend.  With my pension, my FIRE number is actually $0 as I can easily keep my spend to my pension which is a unicorn for pensions with a COLA as well.  My assets outside of my pension are all luxuries, charity and legacy.

[scottish]

I've back end loaded our spending profile after observing end of life expenses for my parents.    This pushed the FI number up substantially.

[SimpleCycle]

I’m surprised how high this poll skews, as I feel sometimes like I’m a Boglehead when I’m posting here.  But then I go over to Bogleheads and nope!  We’re aiming for a fat FIRE, but much leaner than most Bogleheads.

Our FI number is right around $1.6M, but we’re also going to need to plan around health care costs and arrangements.  If the ACA isn’t around there’s a good chance we’ll have to stay attached to the labor market to maintain health insurance.

[Cassie]

I picked 200-300k because we each have a pension that doesn’t die with the person. 8 years ago we could live on 39k and now live on 48k which doesn’t include travel, vehicle replacement or other large ticket items. We drive our cars forever. We have been taking 1-2 trips a year and spending between 4-14k/year. We are older so are traveling while both healthy. Our biggest expenses are HI and related expenses.

[Buffaloski Boris]

Could we add “don’t have a FIRE number” ? There are some of us who don’t have one.

+1

I mean I could pick $1M or $1.25M as a "sure, why not" number but the reality is, until we figure out how many kids we want to have and what their situation is, where we want to live, it's all a guess.

And realistically it doesn't change much of what our gameplan is either. Try to make and save as much as possible.

The older I get, the more clarity I have around the quality of that guess but right now it's pretty much a guess.

In our case, pensions are the issue. We’re blessed: we could live on those without much if any difficulty. So what’s the point in having “a number” in that scenario?

It's still a good idea to know how much your lifestyle costs, even if you easily have those costs covered.

But the poll asked how much in assets do I need to fire not my annual spend.  With my pension, my FIRE number is actually $0 as I can easily keep my spend to my pension which is a unicorn for pensions with a COLA as well.  My assets outside of my pension are all luxuries, charity and legacy.

Ditto for us. If it’s additional assets needed to FIRE its pretty close to zero. Like I say we’re blessed.

[Travis]

Could we add “don’t have a FIRE number” ? There are some of us who don’t have one.

+1

I mean I could pick $1M or $1.25M as a "sure, why not" number but the reality is, until we figure out how many kids we want to have and what their situation is, where we want to live, it's all a guess.

And realistically it doesn't change much of what our gameplan is either. Try to make and save as much as possible.

The older I get, the more clarity I have around the quality of that guess but right now it's pretty much a guess.

In our case, pensions are the issue. We’re blessed: we could live on those without much if any difficulty. So what’s the point in having “a number” in that scenario?

It's still a good idea to know how much your lifestyle costs, even if you easily have those costs covered.

But the poll asked how much in assets do I need to fire not my annual spend.  With my pension, my FIRE number is actually $0 as I can easily keep my spend to my pension which is a unicorn for pensions with a COLA as well.  My assets outside of my pension are all luxuries, charity and legacy.

Tomato, tomato.  Since we usually talk about our "FIRE number" or required assets being a multiple of our annual spending it's pretty much the same thing, IMO. Which is why I presented my pension in those terms.

[American GenX]

I decided to go ahead and vote despite the uselessness of the poll.  I don't want to be left out.   lol

I picked $1.75 M to $2 M for net worth as a single guy with no dependents living in a low cost of living area.  My stache is the large majority of my net worth in my case, despite my house being paid for, because I live in a low cost of housing area except for high property taxes.

In terms of the multiple of my required (including long term home maintenance & car sinking funds) expenses on average, this provides 80X barebones.

That becomes 35X when including discretionary spending.  This is my preferred most realistic spending outlook for an enjoyable retirement, although it would still be a large multiple of my current discretionary spending in recent years while still working full time.  So, maybe I won't really spend that much when the time comes.  It's hard to imagine cranking up my discretionary spending to that degree based on my history, but I've never had all of the free time that retirement will provide me.  And I do have a lot of ideas of things that I would like to do.

And 25X maximum spending is what I will allow myself to spend in any particular year, but not every year, maybe in an exceptional year like going on a special extended vacation.  I have always been quite frugal since I was young.  35X should already be more than enough.  But I like the buffer and options it provides me.  If it comes down to it, I might have to force myself to spend money.

I left pension / defined benefit income out of my net worth figure, but I will receive it after 8 years, adjusted for inflation, and it will cover all of my required expenses on its own nearly on the dot, including higher projected health care costs, so then my stash will just be all for fun, discretionary, travel, and a general good time.  :)

Note - this is based on an expected FIRE of spring 2021.  I have a pretty interesting and enjoyable senior engineer job working from home now and have my own private office at work, and the pay, hours, and benefits are quite good, so I'm not in any hurry to leave it, but if I work beyond next spring, I'll just have bigger piles of money I'll have to figure out how to spend.   lol