What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?

[Luck12]

For the HARD WORK people like use2betrix, how do you explain the differences in economic mobility between the US and other countries.  Do you really think Americans are so much lazier and less gritty than people in those other countries?  I doubt it just by looking at # of hours worked and the respective sizes of their welfare states.   Could it be that they have different government policies that lead to higher mobility? 

Also, think about it, we only have control over 1 of the 4 factors that contribute to success:  genetics, socioeconomic and family background, hard work, and luck.   

Sure Muggsy Bogues was 5'3", but he also was top 0.01% in hand-eye coordination and quickness, speed, lateral movement, fast twitch muscles, etc.  Same with Shaq Griffin.    You are truncating the data of all the people who never made it anywhere despite the HARD WORK they put in. 

As for weight loss,  I could easily tell you that I've had a few years where I didn't eat right and barely exercised, yet my weight didn't change.  I've seen the same thing with many other people.  Why not?   Genetics. 

Hell even how hardworking you are is at least somewhat influenced by your genetics and family background. 

Conservatives and neo-liberals love to go on about HARD WORK so that they don't have to invest in programs that will help poorer people do better and move up.   It also makes them feel good about themselves and justifies their current place in society (see Just World fallacy). 

 

[Hula Hoop]

Of course, some are hard choices, and in regards to helping care for siblings, I would have likely done the same. But my decisions to marry a wife who is fine with not working and moving to support my career.

While I'm sure there are exceptions - this choice is very rarely available to women.  I dated many men while single but, despite having a very well paid professional job, never met one who wanted to be a stay at home husband in order to follow me around while I moved up the ladder - especially before having kids.  In fact, a serious boyfriend broke up with me because he was unwilling to make sacrifices in his career to follow me to where I could get the best paid job.  While there are, of course, some exceptions, men just aren't socialized, even now, to prioritize their wife's career (especially pre-kids). I've tried to argue with my husband, who earns a lot less than me, that he would be better off as a stay at home dad but he just can't do it as I think a large part of his self image is attached to working. 

Similarly, I don't think that I would have been given the same childcare role in my family if I'd been a boy - but that is for another thread.

Anyway, as others have said, your success is not due to your hard work and sacrifices alone - it's due to a variety of social-economic factors and a lot of luck as well.

I find this hilarious because I am pursuing FI so that I can be a stay-at-home-dad, among other things.

Pursuing FIRE is entirely different to being financially depending on a spouse though - especially pre-kids. 

[iris lily]

 To be born healthy to two parents who love and support you, and who are reasonably intelligent and sane is a gift. To be born in the U .S. is the ultimate gift.

And then I always add: to be born in the middle of the country in the middle of the century into a middle-class family is a trifecta of fabulous fortune—there were no  Joneses to keep up with, no high priced real estate to eat up all resources, no expensive bank of electronic devices necessary for daily life. We thought driving a Ford and going to State U was perfectly ok and it was affordable, with sacrifices of course.

So, that’s me.

And I watch, and continue to watch, peers who make and continue to make bad financial choices. Like—nearing 70 years old and taking out a second mortgage. Adding new car payments. Buying multiple acres when you don’t even venture outside, let alone garden or move snow all on a social security income. Hanging by fingernails onto 150 year old houses 4,000 sq ft. in need of new roof, windows, HVAC.

So the mistakes young people make carry over into old people land because those attitudes do not change.

While I  made a fair number of stupid  micro mistakes when I was under the age of 25, I didn’t commit to big errors such as popping out kids with worthless men, pursuing exclusive academic degrees that did not net a job, and etc.i was always careful with money.

[use2betrix]

@Malkynn

So when I sit and listen to an obese person talk about how they refuse to eat healthy or exercise and basically assume I am just “genetically lucky” I should just coddle to their feelings? I remember one day at work a 250 lb woman was chomping down on her whopper in the break room, bitching about her weight while I was sitting there choking down my bland chicken and rice.

I fucking love ice cream. My mom owned a bakery for 20 years and I’m basically proof that you can raise a kid off cookies and ice cream. I could easily eat 5000 calories a day and love it.

Do you think I “enjoy” waking up at 5 a.m. and running 20-30 miles a week while working 60 hrs a week?

Do you think I “enjoy” having my 40 calorie fudge bars for “desert” instead of a nice 1500 calorie bowl of ice cream?

Do you think I “enjoy” turning down the delicious (and free) breakfasts and lunches that my company provides nearly every single day, in turn to have my chicken/veggies, tofu salad’s, etc?


To be honest, I find it a bit insulting knowing how much harder I work both at the work place, the gym, and with my diet, to have it just “assumed” that I have “so many more privileges” than others. I did briefly get fat, by about 40 lbs. I was self aware to realize how disgusting I looked after seeing a candid picture, and took responsibility and fixed it.

I’m not saying I have no privileges, but there’s a TON of people (including on this forum) that have been given far more advantages in life but refuse put the work in that it achieves their goals.

I could not really care less who is fat or what they think, but if they start making excuses regarding things that I sacrifice every day, I’m going to make it clear to them what it takes.

FYI - there are athletes in many sports who have sub par genetics. Look at Mugsy Bogues for the NBA. He was 5’3” and played 16 seasons (based on memory) and grew up in the projects in Baltimore. Right now there’s an NFL player that doesn’t have a hand..

A few days ago I read an article about a woman who was a severe alcoholic and 90 lbs overweight who was able to lose the weight, drop the booze, and qualify for the Boston Marathon (and nearly the olympics) with a sub 2:50 marathon.

I’m never going to run in the olympics or play in the NBA, but that’s zero fucking excuse to not be the best version of me that I still can..

I’d suggest many here read a few books like, “Grit” by Angela Duckworth, “Never Give Up” by David Goggins, or “Extreme Ownership” by Jocko Willink.

FYI - I should add that I’m not a dick, nor theisbrash to people in real life. Everyone around me is well aware of my diet (because I rarely eat with them) and also that I exercise a lot. They often come to me for advice and I’m always thrilled to help and thrilled to know it’s going well.. Many of my friends are not this way, and that’s fine too. I’d never push anyone who didn’t ask for advice, and advice given is very mild. They’re also aware how hard I work..

I think you 100% missed my point.

Did I say anything about the Olympic athlete not putting in the work to accomplish their goals???
Nope.

Did I say anything about coddling people for a lack of effort?
Nope.

Do I think it's a dick move to automatically assume that someone is just lazier than you if they don't achieve your same level of success?
Uh...yeah, kind of.

I had an obese assistant who could never stick to diets. She would always lose about 15lbs rapidly and then would get discouraged when the weight loss slowed, and then she would give up and eat her way to a net gain.

She was also an emotional eater who binged in response to stress. Her mom was also an emotional eater who binged in response to stress. She had a lifetime of behavioural patterns that needed to be addressed in order to resolve the reactions that perpetually led to spectacular diet failure.

Her mistake was assuming that what she needed was just more knuckle-down discipline, that just finding the right diet and the right motivation would work. What she really needed was to heal a lot of the emotional wounds that were tied up with her maladaptation of over eating in response to strong negative feelings of shame.

For her, as is true for a lot of people, the best diet was actually a really good therapist. It still took hard work for her to lose weight, but it took even more psychological work to remove the barriers to success.

Had she not sought appropriate therapy, no amount of advice from others who knuckled-down and succeeded would have likely helped. In fact, it furthered her sense of shame, which helped trigger her self sabotaging behaviours.

It turns out that she had plenty of discipline, but she lacked the emotional health to be able to utilize it effectively to achieve her desired outcome. She's by no means thin now, but she's maintaining a much healthier weight. She's also by no means perfectly emotionally healthy, so those factors still play a role in her habits. Still, she's infinitely healthier both mentally and physically and continues to work on it.

I'm not saying that's everyone's case, it's just one example of one person's multifactorial path to success and the profound barriers she encountered along the way.

My entire point is that all outcomes are multifactorial, and it's erroneous to attribute success or failure to singular factors, such as effort alone.

In no way does that minimize the effort. In no way does that give sweeping permission to anyone to not put in effort.
The Olympic athlete has to work their ass off to win.

I'm actually kind of fascinated how you took that message from my previous post. This is not a criticism of you, it's me wondering how I managed to fail so spectacularly in making my point...

I’m not saying that there aren’t outliers. There are certainly more factors than “just quit being lazy” for (some) people.

I could very very easily be fat. My parents struggle with their weight. I have diagnosed learning disabilities and take medications for Anxiety and ADD. As a teen I was hospitalized in a children’s psychiatric unit for a week. I had a drug addiction in my teens. I’ve been to jail. I failed mostly out of college and took forever to finally get an associates. I’ve had hernia surgeries that impact my exercise in certain ways, skin cancer, back injuries, shoulder injuries, etc.

I could have used all of these things and it seems like it would have been justified by many people as an excuse for not being successful or letting my health go.

My point is - where do you draw the line? Where do you cater to every persons excuse of simply being lazy vs a medical condition or other extenuating circumstance that’s beyond virtually any reasonable control?

I’m not saying this in a sense that these are ever even “daily” topics that come up in every day life, and as previously mentioned, most everyone should refrain from giving unsolicited advice. But what about the people that DO ask for advice. Obviously you can be tactful and dance around the underlying issues, but at the root of it, for many many people, they need to take ownership for the decisions that they have made for where they are (be it their weight or success) and also take ownership for the future and what’s going to happen next.

For every example like the one you have given above, there’s probably a dozen people without a justifiable excuse, other than sheer laziness.

Well, except for myself. Apparently I have just been gifted every possible advantage in life and everything that has contributed to my success is due to exterior factors as opposed to my personal discipline, sacrifice, and choices along the way.

Maybe instead of people complaining about their weight or their income, they should instead realize how privileged they are to have enjoyed so many delicious, unhealthy meals. Or all the weeks they got to enjoy the insane amount of free time only working 40 hour weeks instead of 80 hour weeks. Or living in a town where they can build friendships and see families.

This thread is specifically about success. I’ve posted my views and how I believe people can achieve more success if they are willing to sacrifices. I’m not saying it’s for everyone, but I am saying that people need to understand that they often simply do not want to do what it takes to obtain “more” success...

[Metalcat]

I want to come back to the initial question of what kind of attitude OP should have.

In thinking about this more, I think the key question is: what kind of outcome are you looking for from your attitude?

In interacting with others are you looking to establish yourself as some sort of authority? Are you looking to actually have positive impact on the outcomes of others? Are you looking to maintain a self image of being more capable than others? Are you looking to be liked? Are you looking to be respected or admired for your accomplishments?

What attitude you "should" have depends entirely on what outcome you are aiming to achieve, which of course will likely be heavily influenced by the culture you are surrounded with.

Me, personally, I like to directly impact the outcomes of others, it's why I'm a healthcare professional whose greatest talent is motivating patients to have better health habits.

Some of my colleagues pretty much write this off as impossible or not worth the effort and their main drive is to be the best at solving the problems as they come up.

Meanwhile other colleagues are driven to make patient care as efficient/profitable as possible and remove as much individuality from the process as they can.

So even among people in the same caregiver role, our attitudes towards people and their lifestyle choices can vary dramatically.

If you behaviour with people is resulting in your desired outcome, then you should maintain whatever attitude you already have. If you want a different outcome, then it's time to evaluate your own attitudinal barriers to success.

[John Galt incarnate!]

 the situation I’ve put myself in, is a choice.

Of course, some are hard choices,

When someone says "I didn't have a choice," or "I had no choice," is their assertion true?

Or are such assertions often a euphemism for "I didn't want to make an extremely  difficult, disruptive  choice that would impose severe  burdens on __________."

Suppose after kidnapping B and C A tells B "If you don't shoot C I will shoot you."

B shoots and kills C.

Subsequently A and B are arrested.

B tells investigators "I had no choice, I had to shoot C."

B's statement is false: He had a choice although its dire consequences were unexceedable.


I think there is a choice in virtually every case involving education, career, family matters, location, living arrangements, saving, etc.

[use2betrix]

 the situation I’ve put myself in, is a choice.

Of course, some are hard choices,

When someone says "I didn't have a choice," or "I had no choice," is their assertion true?

Or are such assertions often a euphemism for "I didn't want to make an extremely  difficult, disruptive  choice that would impose severe  burdens on __________."

Suppose after kidnapping B and C A tells B "If you don't shoot C I will shoot you."

B shoots and kills C.

Subsequently A and B are arrested.

B tells investigators "I had no choice, I had to shoot C."

B's statement is false: He had a choice although its dire consequences were unexceedable.


I think there is a choice in virtually every case involving education, career, family matters, location, living arrangements, saving, etc.

Yep.. “7 Habits of Highly Effective People” talks about this in length. We basically ALWAYS have a choice.. If someone says, “I can’t go to my sons tee-ball game tonight, if I miss work I’ll be fired.”

The truth is, you choose to prioritize work over your sons game. For many people, they will agree with that choice based on the outcome, but again, it’s still a choice.

I’d love to see some examples of people who are not remotely successful or can’t remotely achieve a reasonable goal that have “seriously exhausted every option they had.”

[mathlete]

Most rich people who used to be poor were never actually poor. People love to self-aggrandize and one of the most effective ways to do it is the "came from nothing" trope. Even for Drake, "Started From the Bottom" means that he lived in middle class Toronto and was discovered by a talent agent when he was a teen. Doesn't mean he's not talented, but he's probably self-aggrandizing.

Bootstrapping is mostly the stuff of anecdotes, while it's uglier cousin, systemic inequality, is the fruit of extensive academic research. When the academic literature says that investment grade bonds are better than junk bonds for living off of in retirement, most of us would listen. When the academic literature says that nobody ever got successful without a lot of help, some of us bristle, because we find it threatening to our personal narrative.

So my answer is to not think of one's self as a poor person who became rich. Think instead about how you're a person who has pretty good decision making skills and is exceptionally fortunate. The rest should fall into place from there.

[mathlete]

 the situation I’ve put myself in, is a choice.

Of course, some are hard choices,

When someone says "I didn't have a choice," or "I had no choice," is their assertion true?

Or are such assertions often a euphemism for "I didn't want to make an extremely  difficult, disruptive  choice that would impose severe  burdens on __________."

Suppose after kidnapping B and C A tells B "If you don't shoot C I will shoot you."

B shoots and kills C.

Subsequently A and B are arrested.

B tells investigators "I had no choice, I had to shoot C."

B's statement is false: He had a choice although its dire consequences were unexceedable.


I think there is a choice in virtually every case involving education, career, family matters, location, living arrangements, saving, etc.

Using your analogy then, I guess I would ask that you imagine how your life would be different if you were forced to make a whole lot of "non-choice choices" like kill this person or else you'll die.

[Laura33]

First, gratitude and humility are right on.  It's funny, because my innate response is exactly the opposite of use2betrix's:  I assumed for many years that my success was due to external factors.  I was lucky to be born smart; I was lucky to have educated parents, who even though they made no money, put my education above everything else; I was lucky that the government was there with subsidized preschool and Food Stamps when we needed it; I was lucky to have a test-taking superpower that got me college scholarships (and, of course, Uncle Sam's support again with subsidized student loans); I was lucky to go to law school in TX at a time when the state believed that an educated populace was its greatest gift and highly subsidized its universities, allowing me to actually work my way through law school with no loans; etc. etc. etc.  It took me a really, really long time to give myself some credit -- to realize that I had a lot of personal qualities that allowed me to make the most of those opportunities, that I worked hard, never accepted failure as an option, put the client's needs above everything else, etc. etc. etc.  So I took the opposite journey and had to learn to give myself partial credit. 

So the humility comes naturally, because I recognize all of the different points at which things could have gone very, very differently.  The gratitude part, though, has been the biggest gift I have gotten.  I spent so much of my younger life really "feeling" being poor, and resenting everyone who was handed more than I was at the start.  It was that external view -- I felt like my success or failure was completely beyond my control, and I was already somewhat screwed because I'd never have the advantages or financial support of others.  But now that I have managed to achieve more financial success than I ever dreamed of -- literally, I bought one of the houses I used to walk by as a kid and think "wow, only rich people live there" -- I am infused with gratitude and much more able to see the advantages I did have instead of all of the things I didn't.  And, boy, let me tell you, that is a much more pleasant way to feel on a daily basis.

My approach with other people -- when asked -- is to focus on the choices involved.  Because everyone has choices, and every choice has tradeoffs, and you need to make the best choice for your own goals and desires.  I actually just talked about this at HS career day the other day -- my example is that when I went to law school, I dreamed of being on the Supreme Court.  Now I'm 50+ and realizing that isn't going to happen, and it's hard to recognize your own limits.  But the way I deal with that is to say, ok, what would I need to do if I wanted to be competitive for a job on the S.Ct.?  I'd need to go to a big-name firm and work my ass off being the smartest and the best there.  I'd need to go to lots of events and fundraisers and make connections and get myself in position to get a position as a federal judge.  And then I'd need to continue working my ass off being the smartest and best and continue going to all the events and making connections so that I got the name recognition and got on someone's list.

Would all that be enough?  Probably not.  But the reality is, even if it is, that's not now I want to live my next 15-20 years -- I am way too lazy and satisfied with my life to upend everything for that.  And that's sort of the point:  you give yourself power when you assume that you have the power to accomplish what you want, and then look really, really hard at what that requires -- and then decide whether you really want it enough to put in that degree of effort.  And if the answer is no, keep looking until you find a choice that gives you enough of what you want at the amount of effort you're willing to put in to get there.  And then, when the world changes and that doesn't work, do the same thing again.  And again.  Focus on what you can do, not what you can't control.

My internal approach -- when I think of how I want to be, how I want to see the world -- is to think that I don't want to end up like my Uncle.  He is very self-made, but without any empathy or understanding that others might not be able to do what he did, for any of a gazillion reasons.  And I see him now, in his mid-70s, and he is just angry and bitter and seems to hate/fear anyone who isn't just exactly like him.  Here he has so much to be proud of -- raised a great family, had a great career, has a bunch of friends, a church community, so many things to be grateful for and satisfied with.  And yet if you don't actually know him (and certainly if you look/act differently than he does), your first impression is likely to be that he's a total dick.  I mean, I love him, and he's still a total dick.

So if you're thinking of your own attitude, look at the people 20-30 years ahead of you, and decide who you want to be.

[Kris]

First, gratitude and humility are right on.  It's funny, because my innate response is exactly the opposite of use2betrix's:  I assumed for many years that my success was due to external

 factors.  I was lucky to be born smart; I was lucky to have educated parents, who even though they made no money, put my education above everything else; I was lucky that the government was there with subsidized preschool and Food Stamps when we needed it; I was lucky to have a test-taking superpower that got me college scholarships (and, of course, Uncle Sam's support again with subsidized student loans); I was lucky to go to law school in TX at a time when the state believed that an educated populace was its greatest gift and highly subsidized its universities, allowing me to actually work my way through law school with no loans; etc. etc. etc.  It took me a really, really long time to give myself some credit -- to realize that I had a lot of personal qualities that allowed me to make the most of those opportunities, that I worked hard, never accepted failure as an option, put the client's needs above everything else, etc. etc. etc.  So I took the opposite journey and had to learn to give myself partial credit. 

So the humility comes naturally, because I recognize all of the different points at which things could have gone very, very differently.  The gratitude part, though, has been the biggest gift I have gotten.  I spent so much of my younger life really "feeling" being poor, and resenting everyone who was handed more than I was at the start.  It was that external view -- I felt like my success or failure was completely beyond my control, and I was already somewhat screwed because I'd never have the advantages or financial support of others.  But now that I have managed to achieve more financial success than I ever dreamed of -- literally, I bought one of the houses I used to walk by as a kid and think "wow, only rich people live there" -- I am infused with gratitude and much more able to see the advantages I did have instead of all of the things I didn't.  And, boy, let me tell you, that is a much more pleasant way to feel on a daily basis.

My approach with other people -- when asked -- is to focus on the choices involved.  Because everyone has choices, and every choice has tradeoffs, and you need to make the best choice for your own goals and desires.  I actually just talked about this at HS career day the other day -- my example is that when I went to law school, I dreamed of being on the Supreme Court.  Now I'm 50+ and realizing that isn't going to happen, and it's hard to recognize your own limits.  But the way I deal with that is to say, ok, what would I need to do if I wanted to be competitive for a job on the S.Ct.?  I'd need to go to a big-name firm and work my ass off being the smartest and the best there.  I'd need to go to lots of events and fundraisers and make connections and get myself in position to get a position as a federal judge.  And then I'd need to continue working my ass off being the smartest and best and continue going to all the events and making connections so that I got the name recognition and got on someone's list.

Would all that be enough?  Probably not.  But the reality is, even if it is, that's not now I want to live my next 15-20 years -- I am way too lazy and satisfied with my life to upend everything for that.  And that's sort of the point:  you give yourself power when you assume that you have the power to accomplish what you want, and then look really, really hard at what that requires -- and then decide whether you really want it enough to put in that degree of effort.  And if the answer is no, keep looking until you find a choice that gives you enough of what you want at the amount of effort you're willing to put in to get there.  And then, when the world changes and that doesn't work, do the same thing again.  And again.  Focus on what you can do, not what you can't control.

My internal approach -- when I think of how I want to be, how I want to see the world -- is to think that I don't want to end up like my Uncle.  He is very self-made, but without any empathy or understanding that others might not be able to do what he did, for any of a gazillion reasons.  And I see him now, in his mid-70s, and he is just angry and bitter and seems to hate/fear anyone who isn't just exactly like him.  Here he has so much to be proud of -- raised a great family, had a great career, has a bunch of friends, a church community, so many things to be grateful for and satisfied with.  And yet if you don't actually know him (and certainly if you look/act differently than he does), your first impression is likely to be that he's a total dick.  I mean, I love him, and he's still a total dick.

So if you're thinking of your own attitude, look at the people 20-30 years ahead of you, and decide who you want to be.

This reminds me of the studies that have been done suggesting that men tend to be over-confident in their abilities and women under-confident.

I have a friend who is 42 years old and is transitioning from male to female. She recently-ish started HRT, and has said that the hormone level changes have been accompanied by emotional changes as well: "Testosterone makes you feel invincible. Estrogen? Not so much..."

Without just blindly attributing all of this to hormones, I can't help but wonder whether there's perhaps some biological reason, also buoyed by a socio-cultural reason, for certain demographics to believe their successes are entirely their own, the result of their innate intelligence/motivation/drive, and for other demographics to look at wider societal factors that might have contributed to those successes.

ETA: Also, I wanted to say to Laura33 that my experiences mirror yours in a lot of ways -- right down to hardly being able to believe my luck at my situation in life, and very grateful, while looking at others around me who spend all their time looking down at others and not seeing their own successes as being due in any way to certain social advantages.

[Metalcat]

I’m not saying that there aren’t outliers. There are certainly more factors than “just quit being lazy” for (some) people.

I could very very easily be fat. My parents struggle with their weight. I have diagnosed learning disabilities and take medications for Anxiety and ADD. As a teen I was hospitalized in a children’s psychiatric unit for a week. I had a drug addiction in my teens. I’ve been to jail. I failed mostly out of college and took forever to finally get an associates. I’ve had hernia surgeries that impact my exercise in certain ways, skin cancer, back injuries, shoulder injuries, etc.

I could have used all of these things and it seems like it would have been justified by many people as an excuse for not being successful or letting my health go.

My point is - where do you draw the line? Where do you cater to every persons excuse of simply being lazy vs a medical condition or other extenuating circumstance that’s beyond virtually any reasonable control?

I’m not saying this in a sense that these are ever even “daily” topics that come up in every day life, and as previously mentioned, most everyone should refrain from giving unsolicited advice. But what about the people that DO ask for advice. Obviously you can be tactful and dance around the underlying issues, but at the root of it, for many many people, they need to take ownership for the decisions that they have made for where they are (be it their weight or success) and also take ownership for the future and what’s going to happen next.

For every example like the one you have given above, there’s probably a dozen people without a justifiable excuse, other than sheer laziness.

Well, except for myself. Apparently I have just been gifted every possible advantage in life and everything that has contributed to my success is due to exterior factors as opposed to my personal discipline, sacrifice, and choices along the way.

Maybe instead of people complaining about their weight or their income, they should instead realize how privileged they are to have enjoyed so many delicious, unhealthy meals. Or all the weeks they got to enjoy the insane amount of free time only working 40 hour weeks instead of 80 hour weeks. Or living in a town where they can build friendships and see families.

This thread is specifically about success. I’ve posted my views and how I believe people can achieve more success if they are willing to sacrifices. I’m not saying it’s for everyone, but I am saying that people need to understand that they often simply do not want to do what it takes to obtain “more” success...

Never once did I say that people should be lazy and complain about not having what they're not working for.

Again, I really can't figure out where that interpretation is coming from.

I'm the last person to assume that success is due to outside factors alone, just like I'm the last person to assume that it's from internal factors alone.

Recognizing that succes AND failure are always multifactorial in no way minimizes or deligitemizes the effort or lack of effort involved.

I think I get it though...I suspect you've spent your whole life with people writing your success off as no big deal, despite it being an insane outlier and against all odds.

That is frustrating. I understand better than you know.
It's actually a bit freaky how similar our background experiences are, even down to childhood hospitalization and skin cancer...freaky...also probably why we tend to deeply respect each other's posts despite regularly disagreeing.

I actually just presume that people look at me and assume my life is easy and perfect.
It's a natural cognitive bias that I've learned to expect and to diffuse effectively without alienating people if I don't want to.

Sometimes a "bitch you don't know what I've suffered through to get here" moment is called for and deeply satisfying, but refer to my previous post about desired outcomes. Lol.

So yes, this thread is about success.
No one should ever feel they need to minimize the incredible hard work they've put in to accomplish a goal.
Also, no one should ever disregard the multifactorial nature of all outcomes.

These two truths are not in competition with each other.

You and I are both unbelievably disciplined people who have been extremely outcome oriented in our lives and have accomplished huge professional and personal success against some pretty horrifically bad odds.
Yay! Good for us.

You are I are also paradoxically incredibly lucky people to have had the skills and talents and experiences along the way to foster and harness that motivation to climb out of the dumpster fires of our past lives.
Yay! Good for us.

The further I go in my process of trying to understand happiness, the more grateful I become for the factors beyond my control that allowed me to be successful.

I'm one of 6 siblings. Of all of them, I actually had it the hardest by far, and I'm by far the most successful. I was also the only child from my two parents specifically, and was born and raised with a certain combo of advantages that the rest didn't have.

How much of my relative success is effort and how much is other factors? Who knows? Regardless, I'm unbelievably grateful for whatever leg up I got along the way that synergistically worked with my effort to produce my results.

I've worked my fucking ass off. Period.
I've been given enormous advantages. Period.
These are not competing factors in my path to success. 

[mathlete]

Regarding choices: We like to think of hard times as a forge that makes us stronger and better. This is probably at least somewhat true. But we also know that people tend to make the wrong choice more often in times of stress or scarcity. So even the belief that poverty is the result of choices should come with the acknowledgement that choice-making is harder for the impoverished.

_{it also might help to keep in mind that free will is probably an illusion anyway}

[Metalcat]

Regarding choices: We like to think of hard times as a forge that makes us stronger and better. This is probably at least somewhat true. But we also know that people tend to make the wrong choice more often in times of stress or scarcity. So even the belief that poverty is the result of choices should come with the acknowledgement that choice-making is harder for the impoverished.

_{it also might help to keep in mind that free will is probably an illusion anyway}

What's extra super fun to realize is that those adaptations that make people stronger in times of suffering can also be incredibly maladaptive to long term emotional well being, and in and of themselves promote terrible long term decision making...

Ask me how I know ;)

[mathlete]

Regarding choices: We like to think of hard times as a forge that makes us stronger and better. This is probably at least somewhat true. But we also know that people tend to make the wrong choice more often in times of stress or scarcity. So even the belief that poverty is the result of choices should come with the acknowledgement that choice-making is harder for the impoverished.

_{it also might help to keep in mind that free will is probably an illusion anyway}

What's extra super fun to realize is that those adaptations that make people stronger in times of suffering can also be incredibly maladaptive to long term emotional well being, and in and of themselves promote terrible long term decision making...

Ask me how I know ;)

Sending you virtual hugs and kisses!

Also there's a book about this called "The Knight in Rusty Armor"

[Metalcat]

Regarding choices: We like to think of hard times as a forge that makes us stronger and better. This is probably at least somewhat true. But we also know that people tend to make the wrong choice more often in times of stress or scarcity. So even the belief that poverty is the result of choices should come with the acknowledgement that choice-making is harder for the impoverished.

_{it also might help to keep in mind that free will is probably an illusion anyway}

What's extra super fun to realize is that those adaptations that make people stronger in times of suffering can also be incredibly maladaptive to long term emotional well being, and in and of themselves promote terrible long term decision making...

Ask me how I know ;)

Sending you virtual hugs and kisses!

Also there's a book about this called "The Knight in Rusty Armor"

Lol, thanks, I'm in a *mood* today.

[John Galt incarnate!]

Are you looking to actually have positive impact on the outcomes of others?

Aiming to achieve this has always been satisfying for me.

I do so in small ways, not professionally like you.

[Metalcat]

Are you looking to actually have positive impact on the outcomes of others?

Aiming to achieve this has always been satisfying for me.

I do so in small ways, not professionally like you.

This requires the ability to meet people at their level and to be non judgemental about their personal experience of reality.

One of my classic lines and work is "I'm never going to judge you, I'm not your mother" along with "if this has never felt important to you, then someone along the way has failed to communicate the consequences properly"

[StarBright]

If you have accomplished something that results in outlier level outcomes, chances are that there are outlier factors behind it.

@Malkynn - I think this is just a super way of wording this!

And when we talk about structural issues we generally aren't talking about the outliers. And yet on this board, we probably have a ton of outliers so it often becomes a conversation where we all tend to talk at cross purposes.

[Metalcat]

If you have accomplished something that results in outlier level outcomes, chances are that there are outlier factors behind it.

@Malkynn - I think this is just a super way of wording this!

And when we talk about structural issues we generally aren't talking about the outliers. And yet on this board, we probably have a ton of outliers so it often becomes a conversation where we all tend to talk at cross purposes.

This is why I keep coming back to the fact that recognizing the external factors does not detract from the internal factors.

If we can't comfortably conceptualize success and failure as mutifactorial processes, then we can never actually have productive conversations about them.

Recognizing privilege is not the same as disregarding individual accountability.

[mathlete]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

[Cpa Cat]

There's no denying systemic problems that may hold people back, but I find it hard to believe that ALL success is based on "luck" or "privilege." After all, there are people who have strikingly similar demographic information as the OP, who had as much or more help, who are not millionaires. We see people make poor decisions every day. It's not bad luck that made them make bad decisions, it's something else.

Of course, the mystery of why some people are successful while other people from similar circumstances are not successful is a question that social scientists everywhere are trying to solve every single day. [I recall that my mother's PhD in Sociology was on the topic of why students in the same high school were choosing to make certain choices about what classes to take. Why did some students put themselves on a University-oriented track, while others made choices that eliminated many of their future options? This was a time when the Ontario school system had a 13th, university-prep grade called OAC and OAC classes were required for entry into University, but were optional for students to graduate. I don't think she solved that mystery, but my recollection was that assumptions that the student made about their own intelligence as early as elementary school were framing their class choice in high school, and those assumptions were heavily influenced by the words/opinions of teachers and parents, rather than grades.]

I am not a social scientist, so I don't want to speculate too deeply into what makes some people successful, but one thing I have noticed is that not everyone asks themselves "How can I improve...?" The end of that question is different for everyone, "How can I improve efficiency?" "How can I improve my skills?" "How can I improve my career?" "How can I improve my budget?" but even asking the question is a starting point. Eliminate from "success" all of the people who will never ask the question, because ambition and goal-setting is not a fundamental part of their personality.

Then you have all of the people who make the wrong choices. When they ask "How can I improve...?" it leads them to MLMs, get-rich quick schemes, poor investments, spending too much on an elite education, bad business decisions, etc. Eliminate from "success" all of the people who simply choose the wrong path to success because of... reasons. They tried. They failed. It wasn't because of luck, because many bad decisions are avoidable via self-educating, and it wasn't lack of privilege, but it also wasn't because of lack of ambition or lack of ability.

Eliminate from "success" all of the people who truly can't. Mental illness, physical disability, mental disability - some hurdles can't be overcome with grit and effort. I have a married couple who are my clients who are really nice people, but of below-average intelligence. They are on that fine line between mentally competent and not mentally competent. As a result, they are frequent victims of scams and fraud. A work ethic just isn't enough. Trying hard isn't enough. Because someone is always around the corner waiting to take advantage of them. And when they have a problem, they are not capable of navigating a complex system to solve their problem and they don't have the social connections to seek help. For example, when someone stole of the money out of their bank account, causing it to repeatedly overdraft with a huge amount of overdraft fees, the bank basically refused to help them because they were unable to communicate the problem accurately and were dismissed. Do you think I would be dismissed if I was in a similar situation? Absolutely not. Indeed, I was able to contact someone I knew at their bank on their behalf and ask for assistance. Not only do these people have more problems than normal, they lack the ability to find a decent solution to their problems, which makes the consequences much, much worse than they would be for you or I.

My husband was poor. He was also subjected to religious abuse. His mother took him out of school and homeschooled with a bible-based education. He stole books from the library because he couldn't get a library card without his parent's permission and she refused, because the bible was the only book he needed. When she found the books, she hosted book burnings. She made sure anything else he liked was thrown in as punishment - stuffed toys, comic books, cassettes, etc. He stole food from the grocery store because he didn't get enough food to eat at home. He moved out at 16 and had bad grades in school because he would fall asleep in class because he had to work night-shift to support himself. What made him become a non-college educated, successful start-up owner, when one brother became drug addict and the other became a college-educated teacher? I have a hard time calling him "lucky." But if you ask him, it was luck. He thinks that since he was able to remember a better time, before the extreme poverty and religious abuse, he understood that it was wrong and therefore actively worked to get out. His middle brother did not have solid memories of a better time, and therefore couldn't figure out what to work toward. His youngest brother experienced the least abuse and poverty, and his upbringing was a bit more conventional, so he turned out more conventional. He considers himself and his brothers basically three versions of the same person - equivalent intelligence, same genes, same town, same educational opportunities, same family, similar personalities - but born a year or two apart, they lived slightly different experiences and therefore made different choices that led to various levels of success or failure. He thinks having a good business idea at the right time was lucky, too. And yet in Grade 1, prior to being yanked our of school, when he was asked to write down and draw a picture of what he wanted to be when he grew up, he said he wanted to be "retired." His goal throughout his youth was to be rich and retired. So it can't all be luck, right? Something in his personality caused him to want that.

I don't think it's right to diminish the hard work of successful people. Successful people have often made sacrifices or taken risks that non-successful were not willing to entertain. Yes, it is likely that privilege and luck played a role in that success, but it does not explain 100% of success. So should you be grateful for the role luck and privilege played? Absolutely. And you should acknowledge it and respect the role that lack of privilege and lack of luck has played in the lives of others. But you also deserve to be proud of your success. It is something that was born of your effort and your choices. Other people may not have had the same choices as you, they may have lacked choice, or they may have been forced to make harder choices, but you did have choice and you made the most of it.

[mathlete]

Even the non-luck elements have a lot of luck involved IMO.

Managing resources makes my brain happy. I don't know why it does. I didn't train it to be that way. It just is what it is. That's probably very helpful at any time in human history. But it's especially valuable since I was born into a time in which 20% of the value add in the world's largest economy comes from financial services, which is mostly resource management.

[Metalcat]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

[Metalcat]

There's no denying systemic problems that may hold people back, but I find it hard to believe that ALL success is based on "luck" or "privilege."

Has anyone claimed this so far???

[DadJokes]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Oh, I see them everyday. I can't empathize with them, but I can certainly complain about how their actions inconvenience my life.

Side note: Malkynn is angry today.

[mathlete]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Totally agree. You're killing it in this thread. Great posts up and down.

[Watchmaker]

There's no denying systemic problems that may hold people back, but I find it hard to believe that ALL success is based on "luck" or "privilege."

That's a strawman. What people are saying is more along the lines of "It is very hard to succeed in life without effort (but some people do). It is very hard to succeed in life without privileges (but some people do). Even with many privileges and much effort, there's no guarantees of success."

[Watchmaker]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Totally agree. You're killing it in this thread. Great posts up and down.

Yeah, but that's just par for the course for Malkynn.

[Luck12]

Not only is it highly likely avg IQ here is >115, I would bet the average level of impulse control measured at age 5 would've been way higher than average for a variety of reasons.  Just these 2 factors alone make it much likelier for forum posters than the average person to amass high levels of wealth.       

[Luck12]

The IQ mention reminds me of a George Carlin quote:  "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

[iris lily]

...

So my answer is to not think of one's self as a poor person who became rich. Think instead about how you're a person who has pretty good decision making skills and is exceptionally fortunate. The rest should fall into place from there.

While  I disagree with much of mathalete’s post somewhat, this last paragraph is true and what I meant to give in my rambling “ all about me” post.

[Metalcat]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Oh, I see them everyday. I can't empathize with them, but I can certainly complain about how their actions inconvenience my life.

Side note: Malkynn is angry today.

Angry?

...yeah, maybe.

Very, very frustrated for sure.
Less filtered than normal? Oh yeah, definitely.

ETA: not at all angry or frustrated with this thread.

[Kris]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Agreed.

I posted this in another, unrelated thread. But my younger stepdaughter has been tested as having an IQ of 85.

For reference: She cannot do 11-3 in her head.

[Kris]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Oh, I see them everyday. I can't empathize with them, but I can certainly complain about how their actions inconvenience my life.

Side note: Malkynn is angry today.

I'm kind of "wow"-ing at both of these comments.

You can't... empathize with people who have cognitive disabilities through no fault of their own, but you certainly can complain about how they inconvenience you???

And... strenuous debate is not anger. Attempts to diminish someone's points by dismissing them as simply emotional... not so cool, frankly.

[Metalcat]

The IQ mention reminds me of a George Carlin quote:  "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

Take out the non PC concept of average/below average intelligence people being "stupid" and yeah, spot on. 

The intelligent class tend to dramatically over estimate the capacity of the average to low-intelligence class. What's worse is that certain cultures tend to assign a lot of virtue to intelligence.
 
Meanwhile, being really not overly smart is far more normal than being particularly bright.

For every Mustachian who can easily decipher the risks and benefits of paying off their mortgage, there's someone who struggles with understanding the basics of multiplication.

To underestimate the profound advantage that intelligence gives someone, is to miss an entire category of privilege that should never be underestimated in terms of its potential impact on outcomes.

[Metalcat]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Agreed.

I posted this in another, unrelated thread. But my younger stepdaughter has been tested as having an IQ of 85.

For reference: She cannot do 11-3 in her head.

Your share about your SD in your thread about her is really what has triggered a lot of my recent posts on the topic. For me, it's obvious, but it has occurred to me that the perception of what actual average intelligence is is incredible skewed in this population.

[former player]

The IQ mention reminds me of a George Carlin quote:  "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

I think it helps to remember that everybody has something about them, though.  I remember a hairdresser I used to go to who was probably short on intellect but had physical and emotional skills I couldn't hope to match. 

[Villanelle]

I should add that my responses here regarding my success in no way relate to my real life. Only my parents know my net worth, and only a few friends know my income.. No one else knows these things. I don’t talk about them, and they just see me driving to work in my 20 year old Toyota Camry and living in a 2 BR apartment in a small town..

@Malkynn

So when I sit and listen to an obese person talk about how they refuse to eat healthy or exercise and basically assume I am just “genetically lucky” I should just coddle to their feelings? I remember one day at work a 250 lb woman was chomping down on her whopper in the break room, bitching about her weight while I was sitting there choking down my bland chicken and rice.

I fucking love ice cream. My mom owned a bakery for 20 years and I’m basically proof that you can raise a kid off cookies and ice cream. I could easily eat 5000 calories a day and love it.

Do you think I “enjoy” waking up at 5 a.m. and running 20-30 miles a week while working 60 hrs a week?

Do you think I “enjoy” having my 40 calorie fudge bars for “desert” instead of a nice 1500 calorie bowl of ice cream?

Do you think I “enjoy” turning down the delicious (and free) breakfasts and lunches that my company provides nearly every single day, in turn to have my chicken/veggies, tofu salad’s, etc?


To be honest, I find it a bit insulting knowing how much harder I work both at the work place, the gym, and with my diet, to have it just “assumed” that I have “so many more privileges” than others. I did briefly get fat, by about 40 lbs. I was self aware to realize how disgusting I looked after seeing a candid picture, and took responsibility and fixed it.

I’m not saying I have no privileges, but there’s a TON of people (including on this forum) that have been given far more advantages in life but refuse put the work in that it achieves their goals.

I could not really care less who is fat or what they think, but if they start making excuses regarding things that I sacrifice every day, I’m going to make it clear to them what it takes.

FYI - there are athletes in many sports who have sub par genetics. Look at Mugsy Bogues for the NBA. He was 5’3” and played 16 seasons (based on memory) and grew up in the projects in Baltimore. Right now there’s an NFL player that doesn’t have a hand..

A few days ago I read an article about a woman who was a severe alcoholic and 90 lbs overweight who was able to lose the weight, drop the booze, and qualify for the Boston Marathon (and nearly the olympics) with a sub 2:50 marathon.

I’m never going to run in the olympics or play in the NBA, but that’s zero fucking excuse to not be the best version of me that I still can..

I’d suggest many here read a few books like, “Grit” by Angela Duckworth, “Never Give Up” by David Goggins, or “Extreme Ownership” by Jocko Willink.

Lastly - should add that I’m not a dick, nor this brash to people in real life. Everyone around me is well aware of my diet (because I rarely eat with them) and also that I exercise a lot. They often come to me for advice and I’m always thrilled to help and thrilled to know it’s going well.. Many of my friends are not this way, and that’s fine too. I’d never push anyone who didn’t ask for advice, and advice given is very mild. They’re also aware how hard I work..

I realize that you said you aren't this "brash" IRL, but I can reasonably assume these are your honest thoughts.

You sound like kind of a judgmental, unpleasant person.  You may sugar coat the truth, but people tend to be fairly good an intuiting when someone else has contempt for them.  Fat people are going to know, by and large (ha!), that you think they look "disgusting", whether you say it or not.  Poor people are going to know you assume they are lazy (though the opposite may be quite true in many, many cases, though certainly not all).

You ask what the "right" attitude is for a formerly poor, currently rich person is.  (I put "right" on quotes because it's a matter philosopher's have been debating for centuries and they haven't yet come close to agreement.)  I'd argue that the really question should maybe be what the "right" attitude is for one human being toward fellow human beings, regardless or wealth, health, status, situation, or even poor or selfish decision making.  And for me, the answer is "compassion and sympathy".  And I choose "sympathy" instead of "empathy" in this case, because it seems that when you try to put yourself in another's shoes, all you do is use that as an excuse to see all the things you could have done differently, rather than understanding the particular details of their personal situations.  It doesn't mean you have to agree with all their choices, or that you can't be somewhat frustrated with them, or that you don't see a path that would have been better (or that would be better going forward).  But it would mean seeing your own advantages (the ones you have through no of little 'fault' of your own) and seeing each person's disadvantages.  You seem to only see how what you have done is better, and then translate that into being a better or somehow more worthy (of..?) human.

[Villanelle]

For IQ reference, I like to remind people that Forrest Gump's was about 75, supposedly.

Of course, he had great successes, so in this particular case, maybe that's not the best point to bring up.  If he could become a multi-millionaire, an endurance athlete, and all the other things he did, I guess that means a low IQ isn't a barrier either, so everyone needs to quit whining and starting running, right?

[DadJokes]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Oh, I see them everyday. I can't empathize with them, but I can certainly complain about how their actions inconvenience my life.

Side note: Malkynn is angry today.

I'm kind of "wow"-ing at both of these comments.

You can't... empathize with people who have cognitive disabilities through no fault of their own, but you certainly can complain about how they inconvenience you???

And... strenuous debate is not anger. Attempts to diminish someone's points by dismissing them as simply emotional... not so cool, frankly.

You take tongue-in-cheek comments way too seriously.

I agree with Malkynn 99% of the time in these forums, including this thread. My comment about her being angry is simply referring to the frequency and tenacity of her posts in this thread, which is a bit unusual for her.

[Kris]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Agreed.

I posted this in another, unrelated thread. But my younger stepdaughter has been tested as having an IQ of 85.

For reference: She cannot do 11-3 in her head.

Your share about your SD in your thread about her is really what has triggered a lot of my recent posts on the topic. For me, it's obvious, but it has occurred to me that the perception of what actual average intelligence is is incredible skewed in this population.

I think you're definitely right.

And in my SD's case, it's not like you would immediately realize just how at a cognitive disadvantage she is from just casual interaction with her. Any person on this forum who came into that kind of contact with her would probably just assume she is a person of "average" intelligence who makes really crappy life choices. It would be very easy to look down on her, and say that she has "the same" chances as anyone else to succeed.

When, in point of fact, she does not. Not even close.

[totoro]

I can sort of relate.  Grew up poor in a dysfunctional household and had zero help and had a lot of struggle early on. 

I have good friends who never had to struggle with this, but that doesn't mean everything has been super easy for them.  Most people have difficulties they need to work to get through, poverty is just one of them.

However, I find that I do have less time for people who waste resources they can't afford if they want to get ahead.  I can look at a financial situation and find solutions to the issues easily because I have that experience.  It is frustrating to me that people I care about don't take logical steps and continue to have avoidable financial hardship because of it.  I've learned from experience that a lot of people don't want to do what it takes to have what they want in this arena because current comfort/lifestyle is way more important than future security. 

On the other hand, I recognize there are a lot of things I missed out on by working three jobs and going to school full-time.  I won't get that time back or the energy I put into creating financial security.  My priority is now meaningful relationships with others and creative pursuits.  Would have been good to be able to focus on this earlier though, or to have more of a balance, so I recognize that giving up some future financial security for this can be a good decision.  People who primarily focused on self-development and meaningful relationships with others might have scored higher on the happiness scale and lower on the stress scale than I used to be, despite their lack of financial security. 

[Kris]

Love the talk about outliers.

The existence of exceptional people shouldn't be used to discount someone's right to be average.

Ugh...sorry, I'm going to post again...I'm having a day...

I mentioned this in a recent thread.
Exceptional people really tend to forget what average looks like.

For example, I would be shocked if the average IQ in this forum was less than 115, a full standard deviation above the average.

For each of us who has an IQ over 115, there's someone out there with an IQ under 85. I often wonder if the people here really grasp what an IQ under 85 is like...really.

Oh, I see them everyday. I can't empathize with them, but I can certainly complain about how their actions inconvenience my life.

Side note: Malkynn is angry today.

I'm kind of "wow"-ing at both of these comments.

You can't... empathize with people who have cognitive disabilities through no fault of their own, but you certainly can complain about how they inconvenience you???

And... strenuous debate is not anger. Attempts to diminish someone's points by dismissing them as simply emotional... not so cool, frankly.

You take tongue-in-cheek comments way too seriously.

I agree with Malkynn 99% of the time in these forums, including this thread. My comment about her being angry is simply referring to the frequency and tenacity of her posts in this thread, which is a bit unusual for her.

When someone makes a supposedly tongue-in-cheek comment that has basically no discernible indicator of tongue-in-cheek-ness, then criticizes another party for taking it "too seriously"...

I'm not sure the other party is the one to be blamed for the perceived tone.

[Watchmaker]

The intelligent class tend to dramatically over estimate the capacity of the average to low-intelligence class. What's worse is that certain cultures tend to assign a lot of virtue to intelligence.
 
Meanwhile, being really not overly smart is far more normal than being particularly bright.

For every Mustachian who can easily decipher the risks and benefits of paying off their mortgage, there's someone who struggles with understanding the basics of multiplication.

To underestimate the profound advantage that intelligence gives someone, is to miss an entire category of privilege that should never be underestimated in terms of its potential impact on outcomes.

Yep. Combine this with the tendency to hold people responsible for their own intelligence and it explains a lot. I'm smart and successful. You should just be smart like me, then you'd be successful.

The funny thing is, despite the fact that I know that 1) lots of things outside of my control impacted my intelligence, and 2) IQ is a flawed measurement in this context, I'm still proud of my intelligence and tempted to share my IQ here ;)

[Metalcat]

The intelligent class tend to dramatically over estimate the capacity of the average to low-intelligence class. What's worse is that certain cultures tend to assign a lot of virtue to intelligence.
 
Meanwhile, being really not overly smart is far more normal than being particularly bright.

For every Mustachian who can easily decipher the risks and benefits of paying off their mortgage, there's someone who struggles with understanding the basics of multiplication.

To underestimate the profound advantage that intelligence gives someone, is to miss an entire category of privilege that should never be underestimated in terms of its potential impact on outcomes.

Yep. Combine this with the tendency to hold people responsible for their own intelligence and it explains a lot. I'm smart and successful. You should just be smart like me, then you'd be successful.

The funny thing is, despite the fact that I know that 1) lots of things outside of my control impacted my intelligence, and 2) IQ is a flawed measurement in this context, I'm still proud of my intelligence and tempted to share my IQ here ;)

Being proud of IQ is fine, just as athletes are proud of their athleticism, attractive people are proud of their appearance, people with perfect pitch are proud of their perfect pitch, etc, etc.

Recognizing innate ability is not the same as disregarding it.

[BECABECA]

The talk of IQ has got me thinking... while the members of this forum have higher than average IQ, we just might have lower than average EQ, especially since IQ and EQ are somewhat negatively correlated.

[Metalcat]

The talk of IQ has got me thinking... while the members of this forum have higher than average IQ, we just might have lower than average EQ, especially since IQ and EQ we somewhat negatively correlated.

Personally, I doubt it.
A main focus here is happiness and emotional well being. I think this population on average is very very high in both emotional and intellectual intelligence.

I work with a lot of staggeringly brilliant people with low emotional intelligence...I don't see that kind of person typically posting here.

[Davnasty]

There's no denying systemic problems that may hold people back, but I find it hard to believe that ALL success is based on "luck" or "privilege."

That's a strawman. What people are saying is more along the lines of "It is very hard to succeed in life without effort (but some people do). It is very hard to succeed in life without privileges (but some people do). Even with many privileges and much effort, there's no guarantees of success."

I agree that this was a straw man given the context, but I actually think I would agree with the statement if we reworded it slightly. I do believe that ALL success requires some level of luck or privilege. If someone is completely unlucky and unprivileged I think it's possible that they can fail to achieve success no matter how much effort they exert. I hope this is an extremely rare situation that very few people experience, but I do believe it exists. Therefore everyone who succeeds has had some form of luck or privilege that this other person did not, at least in relative terms. And since both "luck" and "privilege" are relative terms, I believe all success takes some luck or privilege.

Another way to express the same idea would be the luckiest among us can succeed with no effort and the unluckiest cannot succeed no matter how hard they try. The rest of us fall somewhere in between with some combination of luck and effort which leads to some level of success or failure (again, relative terms)

[John Galt incarnate!]

Not only is it highly likely avg IQ here is >115, I would bet the average level of impulse control measured at age 5 would've been way higher than average for a variety of reasons.  Just these 2 factors alone make it much likelier for forum posters than the average person to amass high levels of wealth.       

Some psychometricians  say that persons of low intelligence have poor impulse control and a short time horizon.

In  the United States the average IQ of  incarcerated males is ~92.

If the psychometricians are right their findings shed light on the high incidence of recidivism.