Author Topic: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?  (Read 19158 times)

FIREby35

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Friends -

I am sure some of you have had the experience I have - or maybe some other path and want to chime in. In short, I left home at 18 with $4,000 in my pocket, saved from my own manual labor at a summer construction job. I went off to a community college that was not desirable according to my now-indebted peers. My parents offered what they could but that didn't include tuition, fees, a car, gas for my car, insurance or much else. I was given $300 per month to live (and I'm grateful for it). The rest was on me.

Here I am, 17 years later. Now I am a 35 year old "rich white man." I just became a millionaire a few weeks ago. No one wants to hear anything about how it was done or how they can do it themselves. It seems that is considered "up from your bootstraps" advice that "the poor" don't want to hear.

But, I wonder - what is the right attitude to have towards those who "have not"? I mean, those who must begin the long slog toward accumulating money and personal power to extricate themselves from dependency on others and unfortunate circumstances due to a lack of resources.   

Here is the newspaper article that brought up the question in my mind:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/air-travel-shows-what-happens-when-we-give-companies-ruinous-power-over-us/2019/11/26/6e3ce96c-0bb7-11ea-bd9d-c628fd48b3a0_story.html#comments-wrapper

Final thought, I have a particular lack of empathy for college educated citizens of this country who want to blame structural problems on their situation - like the author of this article. I'm always working with immigrants and so many of them find a way to fight with a fierce attitude under much more difficult "structural" circumstances. I respect the hell out of that.

SwordGuy

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2019, 08:41:46 AM »
First of all, congrats on a job well done!

Second, you were lucky.   Yes, you worked hard.  Yes, you saved.   You were also lucky.  Lucky you didn't get really ill.   Lucky you weren't injured in an accident.   Because it's unlikely you would be celebrating this today if you had.

How do I know that?   Because after I got out of college my wife and I were poor for 6 long years.   1/3 median family income poor.  Plus paying child support.    We worked hard.  We didn't save (there was nothing to save!) but we didn't get deeper into debt, either.    We were also lucky.   Lucky that the operation my wife needed came 5 years after we were no longer poor.  Lucky that the car accident I got hit in came a couple years after we were no longer poor, and that I wasn't totaled like the car was.   Lucky we didn't fall ill and were unable to be treated properly.    If any of those things had happened we wouldn't be FIRED and sitting on a pile of assets today.   We might be in a pine box 6' under instead.

There **are** real structural problems in our society.  Structural problems that create **real** barriers to success.   It is **right** to fight to remove those barriers.   It is **just** to fight to remove those barriers.

Now, this is where I part ways with a lot of my liberal friends.

It is **also** right to recognize that those particular fights will be long and hard, and the fruit from those victories will take a long time to ripen for us to enjoy.

Therefore, it behooves people to get up off their asses and work extra hard to succeed.   It won't be easy, it will be impossible for some.   But impossible for **some** does NOT mean that no one should try.   Instead, it means that those who can **should** go the extra mile and then, from a position of financial strength, work to make it easier for others to succeed.

You asked what the right attitude to have is?   That's it.

We share FIRE knowledge with anyone and everyone.   Some people take to it right away, some people will take a few years before those seeds of knowledge start to grow into changes in their behavior.  Some will actively fight back against accepting that knowledge.   Choices have consequences.

We **actively** look for ways to help other folks.  If we need to do something we look for ways to help someone out.   

Example:  I had to fly to another city to visit my mom.  Rather than purchase a 2 way ticket, I bought a 1 way ticket and paid an unemployed friend to drive there and bring me back.   They got to visit with friends in another city for the weekend and make some money, too.   Cost me about the same, plus the ride back was more fun than most plane flights.   Plus, they were doing me a service so they weren't getting a handout.   Pride is important, too.

We have a rental property business we set up.   We buy distressed houses, renovate them, and then rent them out for a profit.   This summer we bought one to turn into non-profit housing for either college kids or foster kids who aged out of the system.  It should be operational sometime next year.    Folks in those groups will be able to get less expensive lodging and that will help them out going forward.

ketchup

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2019, 08:46:43 AM »
You had parents that loved you and were willing to give you what they could.  You were also able to work before 18 and save up some coin.  I'm not saying that was the ticket to success on its own but it's a huge step up from people that had neither of those.

My girlfriend was raised by a woman best described succinctly as "narcissistic welfare queen" (her mother).  She and her sisters were not able to get jobs before 18 because it would have impacted their mom's welfare case, and most of the money she did make at 18-19 went to living expenses.  What planted the seeds for her success were social capital (being able to move out with her sister, sister's boyfriend, and me) and getting the hell out of where she grew up (Phoenix, and not the nicer parts).  She recently looked up friends she knew in high school back there, and most of them couldn't move out quickly, worked shitty jobs to contribute to their family (not able to save, some in school but most not), and plenty of them are now drug addicts and/or popped out a few kids at 19.  Not everyone can get out.

ctuser1

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2019, 08:49:53 AM »
I posted something in another thread that may be of relevance:
When an individual is the focus of discussion, his or her bad habits are very much a fair game for discussion.

Why?

An individual, with great effort if necessary, can likely change them, unless there is some psychological disability going on. So, ripping someone a new one in a case study is absolutely correct and often warranted - whether the receiver is rich/poor/whatever.

When a population is the focus of discussion, then the "bad habits of such and such people" is NOT a fair game for discussion.

Why?

It is not because of political correctness, but because of how the math and reality of aggregates work!! The tools that can likely fix bad habits for "an individual" is useless in the aggregate. Assuming you had "reeducation camps", you can try to train and fix 5 (or 50 or 500) individuals with great effort and cost of money and their rights/liberty, but an equal number will come in to take their place because such is wasteful human nature driven likely by genetics.

Just last year I had a professional disagreement with a colleague who, I believe, was not acting with the utmost integrity in terms of meeting his commitments I was dependent on. I remember myself saying in a very angry tone "that was not what we agreed on, you are obfuscating here to cover up that you are not meeting your deadlines" in a big conference call. THAT, is completely par for the course in the ultra-aggressive work culture of NYC. This dude was not white. So if I referred to that and said, "like all <insert ethnicity here> you are obfuscating here to cover up that you are not meeting your deadlines" then I would justifiably be accused of having crossed an ethical line and most probably fired from my job. His individual failings are fair game. Any real or perceived communal traits are not!!

It's the same thing with "poor people are poor because they waste so much", as if the social class the commenter belongs to does not waste!!

Further, your comparison of immigrants with the native-born has selection bias build into it. Immigrants are ones who, by the very definition, has shown enough initiative to pack up and move in order to better their lives. So the extra "fierce attitude" you notice in them is also due to a "structural advantage" they have over the "native born" anywhere - either in the US or in their home country.

I can't tell you what attitude to have. The question - "What's the right attitude", might be more about yourself than the other people you are purporting to judge. At least it is, for me!

From your OP, I think I am just a tiny bit older than you are, with a couple of pre-teenage kids. I can't, based on your pick-up-by-your-bootstraps story in OP, determine if I had a bigger set of struggles in life compared to yours, or less. It will likely have to stay that way because I don't like posting too many identifiable details about myself in an open forum.

When I was younger, I used to think that I "made it" entirely by my own effort. Over time, I've lost the chip on my shoulders, and gradually come to realize that I received many opportunities, sometimes from people I never knew before, on my way to a modest bit of success. It is entirely possible that a different stroke of luck, or sequence of events, or fateful decisions I took based on incomplete information based on a whim, would have led to an entirely different outcome. I have seen many others with much more innate talent do much worse than me.

For me, the "losing the chip on my shoulders" came gradually over several years.

I am in tech, and yet I was not exactly aware of the structural problems that females face in the "bro culture" in tech. I became aware of it for the first time after I saw DW struggle mightily against this structural imbalance. To illustrate, when starting out, as a male, I had to produce X amount of output to gain Y amount of acceptance and get Z number of doors opened for me. DW, OTOH, has to produce 4X the output for 2X the verbal acceptance and yet only Z number of doors opened!! I have daughters, and can already see the "societal expectations" stacking the deck against them in certain ways - and see myself working really hard to try and counter that.

For me, the "lack of empathy" was the real issue due to the chip on my shoulders. Could it be the same for you?


undercover

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2019, 08:55:38 AM »
I’ve been in enough bad situations to realize there’s no such thing as free will. You can do everything perfectly and do all the right things and life will still shit on you. You can work hard, have the right mentality, and life will still take it all away. There are many many examples of this. My favorite one is the guy who told everyone they needed to wash their hands and everyone told him he was crazy to the point that it basically killed him.

I don’t really see anyone that much differently. Everyone has their struggles whether mentally, physically, or monetarily. No one is better than anyone else. Now, I used to not be that way. I did used to look down a little bit on people who weren’t trying or saving or working hard to “get ahead”. But, even as someone who has “seen the light” and “gotten ahead”, a switch flipped after seeing how easily things can go awry and now am more empathetic than ever on people’s situations.

I think someone feeling superior because they did things “against all odds” is only a defense mechanism to allow them to not think too heavily on how much luck actually played into their life and how still totally dependent they are on other people - even if that’s simply the processes that must continue to work within the system that people before you have built.

There are plenty of systematic problems that are to blame for people’s situations and sometimes you’re better off focusing on fixing/reforming the system than focusing on the people who are victims of it. Clearly this is what orgs like the Gates Foundation focus on. I do firmly believe that college isn’t what it was and doesn’t hold the same weight or value that it did before. It’s more expensive and less useful than it used to be, so there is definitely some reform needed there. I’m not saying it’s the cause of every graduate’s problems, but it’s definitely an issue.

So, I think the right attitude is to not question or judge, but help when you can and want to.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 09:25:50 AM by undercover »

APowers

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2019, 08:57:32 AM »
Yeah, nobody wants to hear "you can do it" from a rich white guy whose parents gave him money for college. My parents didn't give me money for college, but nobody wants to hear it from me either (and I'm not nearly as rich as you).

I think it's important to recognize that there *are* structural issues in our society that make climbing out of poverty harder than it ought to be. Daycare is incredibly/prohibitively expensive, for instance. There is also a giant lack of financial advice that's relevant to poor people, so if you grew up poor, you may not have the knowledge-base/tools to plan a path out. There are also cultural barriers to changing classes ("poverty culture" can be a bit like crabs in a bucket sometimes, in addition to there being a whole slew of social norms that are uncomfortably different middle-class vs. poor).

I generally have sympathy for people who are genuinely trying but failing due to these sorts of barriers. I generally don't have sympathy for people who complain about how they can't get ahead because of how expensive life is while simultaneously spending on things that are 100% unnecessary (the stereotypical can't-afford-gas-but-shows-up-to-work-with-a McD's-breakfast).

Also, some people are screwed over by their parents choices-- for instance, my friend's husband had no social security number until well into adulthood (age 28-30ish? both of them grew up in a religious cult and didn't get to start really detoxing from that until marriage/escapement) because his parents were live-off-the-land/hippie/anti-gub'mint type folks. Getting *any* kind of job was incredibly tough for him because he had no citizenship documents, and no good way to get them (eventually he did, but it took a LONG time and was a ton of work on their part and was an incredibly difficult and protracted process).

terran

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2019, 09:08:36 AM »
$300/month is a lot more than a lot of people get. It sounds like your parents lowered a repelling rope for you to climb and you're complaining that they didn't send an elevator for you and that people don't want to hear your story of climbing up by your bootstraps (which you didn't). I probably had more advantages than you (depending on how you count it), but I know I don't have a bootstrap story. 

FIREby35

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2019, 09:30:54 AM »
To all:

I didn't include a lot of details about my story because it is not really about me personally. I don't want to convince you it was harder for me than you or anyone else. It seems that for everyone there is a way to tell your story that is all about the gifts you received that allowed you to "succeed" (male, white, healthy, mind works, had opportunities) v. whatever hard luck facts you care to invent. I'd say it this way, I COULD spin a hard luck story. But, I have never chosen to be caught in that tale. What for?

I have been fortunate to have focused on serving others around me - the injured, sick and immigrants. So, as far as that goes, I feel very confident we are doing more than our fair share to serve and assist the less fortunate - and actually it is one of the causes of all the good fortune we have enjoyed. I can say I feel certain I have done a lot to raise awareness of structural problems directly to those in positions of power who must choose to perpetuate those problems or resolve them favorably (I work as a lawyer). I know from hard experience some (many) choose to perpetuate structural problems.

No doubt, I see traps all around that hold people back from achieving the peace they deserve. It's just that the traps aren't really secrets. But if you try and tell someone, "don't step in the trap!" (i.e. student loans, credit cards, payday loans, rented furniture, 15 million new cars sold annually) - they may feel the "sacrifices" are too great. My assistant worked at a debt consolidation business fro 11 years. She has told me that until she met me she thought all the advice on how to get ahead was just hollow words. She says I am the only person she knows who actually does all the things she recommended at the debt consolidation job! She needs to meet more mustachians - obviously :)

Perhaps, I wonder what type of story to tell. If I told my "hard-luck" story and said it with the idea of inspiring or pushing others to follow their own path then it would be helpful to those who received the message (I'm thinking young people who come looking for advice). If you don't tell the hard luck story then it won't resonate with anyone. We all have to pass significant obstacles to reach a level of economic and personal power where we are not blown over by the winds of life. So, sharing the story to help others seems like a good idea, but maybe not??

In the end, I just work silently on the things right in front of me with the attitude of service toward those who give me the opportunity.

Anyway, no clear purpose in posting. I was just curious what others thought.

BECABECA

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2019, 09:43:07 AM »
My situation was quite similar. It was definitely not a foregone conclusion that I’d be able to bootstrap myself into a millionaire back when I was choosing between paying tuition and buying food that week. I can still see that even with my discipline and willpower, I still got very lucky along the way: I won the genetic lottery on mental health, intelligence, physical ability and health. I also won the birth lottery by being born to good parents who didn’t do drugs while I was in vitro, didn’t expose me to dangerous things in the household, had enough money to feed and clothe and shelter me, not to mention being born in a safe country with lots of opportunity.

But even with all those advantages, I can see that I got very lucky to be where I am now. There were quite a few times along the way that it could have changed. I had a couple of long stretches of unemployment, during which I even got turned down for jobs that didn’t require any degree (they said I was overqualified and didn’t want to have to train somebody new when I inevitably quit when I found something better).

I can also see where I could have had more advantage. If I’d been male, I could have gotten into the engineering classes at the religious college I was stuck going to (multiple professors told me there was only room for male students who needed the degree to support a family, and that I was just there to find a husband). Instead I had to choose a major that wasn’t popular: pure math. Throughout my whole engineering career, I was perpetually having to convince managers that a mathematician could do the job. I often was able to get the job, but I was always paid less than my coworkers who had engineering degrees even though we did the same job. But I was still able to retire earlier than any of them on my lower salary, and maybe I was able to retire earlier because I’d had more experience living on less money.

I can still have empathy for anyone who hasn’t been able to make it, just by thinking back to when I hadn’t made it yet. Even someone with more advantages than I had can still feel hopeless when faced with a setback. Just remember how hopeless you felt during your worst setback and it’ll be really easy to feel empathy.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 09:54:48 AM by BECABECA »

force majeure

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2019, 09:54:06 AM »
My uncle has about 100 bar stashed away.
I still hear him saying... we are poor.
Yes, relative to his peers in the NY neighbourhood, he is probably right.
It comes from his upbringing, he still takes sugar sachets from restaurants.

Luck12

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2019, 10:02:10 AM »
I guess I qualify as a formerly poor person who is now rich:  I'm FIRED and was poor enough growing up to have received Pell grants all through college. 

My attitude is that I'm grateful for so many things that went right:   I grew up in a stable and loving family that heavily stressed the value of learning and education.  I'm lucky I was born intelligent in general and more specifically intelligent in math (it's obvious that being in the top 5-10% in math makes it a lot easier to get into high paying fields like engineering, finance, data science, etc).  I am grateful I haven't had any health problems.  I am lucky I graduated from college in a year when it was very easy to find a job (they were giving out signing bonuses left and right, don't see that happening much these days).  I went to college at a time when student loans were a lot more manageable.   I was also born with a frugal mindset so it was never difficult to live a FIRE lifestyle.  Also, thanks to government assistance, I had work-study, Pell grants, and subsidized student loans.   

I am not particularly gritty or hard working.  I thank the heavens every day for the gifts that I was blessed with, otherwise I could easily be poor or at least working class. 

If you look at the backstories of most people who have gone from poor to upper middle class, you'll see that they had most if not all of the advantages that I had.  So I have never bought into the BS Horatio Alger myth so many Americans ascribe to.

OP is a lawyer.  That right there tells you this person has a very high level of intelligence. 

« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 10:07:45 AM by Luck12 »

Kris

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2019, 10:04:07 AM »
The right attitude?

Gratitude. And compassion.

That’s probably the best attitude for anyone, regardless of situation.

KBecks

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2019, 10:31:11 AM »
I think the right attitude is to be helpful and gracious to others, especially in giving opportunities, compassion, and encouragement.

Also, take the quotes off "rich white guy", because the shoe fits!  Congrats on your success.

ctuser1

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2019, 10:55:13 AM »
To all:

I didn't include a lot of details about my story because it is not really about me personally. I don't want to convince you it was harder for me than you or anyone else. It seems that for everyone there is a way to tell your story that is all about the gifts you received that allowed you to "succeed" (male, white, healthy, mind works, had opportunities) v. whatever hard luck facts you care to invent. I'd say it this way, I COULD spin a hard luck story. But, I have never chosen to be caught in that tale. What for?

I have been fortunate to have focused on serving others around me - the injured, sick and immigrants. So, as far as that goes, I feel very confident we are doing more than our fair share to serve and assist the less fortunate - and actually it is one of the causes of all the good fortune we have enjoyed. I can say I feel certain I have done a lot to raise awareness of structural problems directly to those in positions of power who must choose to perpetuate those problems or resolve them favorably (I work as a lawyer). I know from hard experience some (many) choose to perpetuate structural problems.

No doubt, I see traps all around that hold people back from achieving the peace they deserve. It's just that the traps aren't really secrets. But if you try and tell someone, "don't step in the trap!" (i.e. student loans, credit cards, payday loans, rented furniture, 15 million new cars sold annually) - they may feel the "sacrifices" are too great. My assistant worked at a debt consolidation business fro 11 years. She has told me that until she met me she thought all the advice on how to get ahead was just hollow words. She says I am the only person she knows who actually does all the things she recommended at the debt consolidation job! She needs to meet more mustachians - obviously :)

Perhaps, I wonder what type of story to tell. If I told my "hard-luck" story and said it with the idea of inspiring or pushing others to follow their own path then it would be helpful to those who received the message (I'm thinking young people who come looking for advice). If you don't tell the hard luck story then it won't resonate with anyone. We all have to pass significant obstacles to reach a level of economic and personal power where we are not blown over by the winds of life. So, sharing the story to help others seems like a good idea, but maybe not??

In the end, I just work silently on the things right in front of me with the attitude of service toward those who give me the opportunity.

Anyway, no clear purpose in posting. I was just curious what others thought.

I think a balance is necessary!!

You seem to be doing the right thing when confronting the structural issues in the system. I'd just implore you to be cognizant of the fact that structural problems seem to me to be very difficult to detect unless you yourself, or a very close loved one are directly impacted. So I try to be extra empathetic (if that is even possible) when someone is raising an issue like that.

That is not the whole picture, however!

There are plenty of situations where drawing boundaries, letting someone fail on their own, and tough love are the correct approaches - especially when dealing with individuals, as opposed to a system or aggregate.

I paid for part of the living cost during college for a younger close relative I cared deeply about. He/She, typical of young adults, would party and run out of money. I gave warnings for a couple of months. When he/she approached me at the end of the third week of the next month saying he/she has run out of money for food - I responded "That's great. You can now learn to ration your existing stuff for a week, and a bit of hunger for a few days builds character!!". I feel very proud now when I see him/her turn around in several ways and be very successful in a career at this point!! I also feel that I acted correctly in this case, even though several other people (including my parents) told me I was being too cruel in that case without just cause.

At the end of the day, each and every kid deserves the same set of opportunities. Structural problems prevent that and slant the deck - so they should be fought tooth and nail whenever possible! Despite receiving opportunities, some will work hard and make good use of them, and some wont, and yet others can't make use of them due to disabilities!! We should provide a basic safety net for those that can't or won't make use of opportunities, without judgement, but otherwise let people "fail" without losing sleep over it.

Zikoris

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2019, 11:09:58 AM »
I hear you. People don't like it when they say "X is impossible for poor people and doesn't even help them" and you reply "I literally did X when I was poor and it helped me tremendously". I'm a similar case study to you, except not quite as rich now, and starting off with less - I also moved out at 18 with no help, except I had about $1,000. I worked throughout high school, first on a farm, then as a cook. Nobody paid a cent towards any sort of post-secondary education. I was dirt poor for years living in an expensive city, and doing all the advice that people don't like was literally what kept me in decent financial shape and not needing government services. If my income had never increased, I wouldn't have been able to retire at 35, but I would have been able to retire at a normal age and live a comfortable life along the way.

As far as attitude goes, I have a lot of disdain for people in circumstances similar or better to what I've lived who act like it's such a difficult thing to cook a meal or not buy shit they can't afford. Or general irresponsible behaviour, like spending a bunch of money partying and then crying broke.

mozar

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2019, 11:12:02 AM »
OP, don't share your hard luck story because you don't have one. A 300 dollar a month stipend plus 4k in your pocket is not a hard luck story.  If people seem irritated with you it's because you seem out of touch. Poor people don't get a stipend from their parents. 
I'm a black woman. I'm financially stable but by no means rich. People assume that I have a hard luck story or that I overcame obstacles.  I didn't.  My parents bought me shoes and groceries once in awhile. But no support otherwise while in college. I remember my white girlfriend being shocked and jealous that I got a new pair of shoes. She grew up in poverty and her mother was constantly trying to steal from her.
Moral of the story is that class mobility is a myth. Some countries give poor people a salary floor so that they can have at least the basics. But it's super rare to move from poverty to the middle class. And it's not something you did OP. So be respectful of people that are different than you and give financial advice when asked. That's all you can do.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 11:15:15 AM by mozar »

Wrenchturner

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2019, 11:19:04 AM »
A very interesting thread.

If you are the bootstrapper you say you are, then your wealth is in your mindset.  That's what should be given to others if possible.

People that are drug addicted, mentally ill or otherwise totally overwhelmed probably need a more basic framework of sympathy and compassion.  They don't have the timeframe available for more sophisticated ideas.

So you can give back, with your labor and your knowledge.  I've found David Goggins' audiobook "Can't Hurt Me" to be an excellent window into triumph over terrible odds.  The audiobook I think is better than the book because there is a podcast/discussion element to it between chapters.  You can read a bit about him if you want to see what strength looks like.

There is also the story of Rob Jones:
Robert R. Jones, Jr. (September 7, 1985) is an American farmer, Marine Corps veteran, motivational speaker, Paralympic athlete, and politician. In 2010, while serving in Afghanistan, he was severely wounded in action by an improvised explosive device where he lost both legs above the knee.[1] Jones made headlines when he completed 31 consecutive marathons in 31 days while raising money for veterans.[2] Between 2013 and 2014, he cycled nearly 5,200 miles across the United States in order to raise awareness for wounded veterans.[3] He also won a bronze medal with Oksana Masters in mixed double sculls (rowing) at the 2012 Summer Paralympics.[3]

Jordan Peterson also has done a good job of outlining how we can overcome challenges.

The more you learn the language of the circumstances you experienced and overcame, the more likely you will be able to help others to see challenge the same way.  This is a difficult sell.  It is far easier to lament the state of existence than it is to bear your cross--so to speak, when you are already in pain and or suffering.

Avoid resentment of ungrateful people.  At best it makes you a smug asshole and at worst it poisons the well.

FIREby35

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2019, 11:29:38 AM »
I think the right attitude is to be helpful and gracious to others, especially in giving opportunities, compassion, and encouragement.

Also, take the quotes off "rich white guy", because the shoe fits!  Congrats on your success.

Yeah, I think I agree with you completely. I follow a philosophy of "love, serve, give." It's a short way of analyzing any situation that usually leads to a superior action.

As for the quotes on "rich white guy" - that is the whole thing! It's a strange transition from anonymous "poor" regular guy to "rich white guy." People in the world treat you differently and I'm learning to adjust.

bacchi

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2019, 12:14:47 PM »
We hear about the success stories. The many failures are forgotten.

FIREby35

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2019, 12:23:23 PM »
OP, don't share your hard luck story because you don't have one. A 300 dollar a month stipend plus 4k in your pocket is not a hard luck story.  If people seem irritated with you it's because you seem out of touch. Poor people don't get a stipend from their parents. 
I'm a black woman. I'm financially stable but by no means rich. People assume that I have a hard luck story or that I overcame obstacles.  I didn't.  My parents bought me shoes and groceries once in awhile. But no support otherwise while in college. I remember my white girlfriend being shocked and jealous that I got a new pair of shoes. She grew up in poverty and her mother was constantly trying to steal from her.
Moral of the story is that class mobility is a myth. Some countries give poor people a salary floor so that they can have at least the basics. But it's super rare to move from poverty to the middle class. And it's not something you did OP. So be respectful of people that are different than you and give financial advice when asked. That's all you can do.

Do you really think class mobility is a myth? Perhaps I moved from lower middle to upper middle (or a millionaire is just straight upper class). I definitely did not have to deal with some of the things I see others dealing with (I routinely work with Latinos in my community who face actual structural racism and not the "structural" problems complained about in the article I posted originally.). So, I hear you there and I know that applies to the black community in my geographical area. But, I talk about the education path of CC, state college, state law college to aspiring minority students all the time. Why? Because it is actually the cheapest, most accessible path. If you want to get lucky, that is a good direction to walk!

If we don't tell our stories and offer a hand up then who will? By "we" I mean poor to working class people who move up through luck, work and time.

One last thing, being around lawyers is interesting. Some of them are full of privileges you may not be able to imagine - I didn't! For sure, as a simple first generation attorney who worked his way through, I have felt I entered into another realm of power and privilege. That does make me feel like I bootstrapped into my current position. I admit that. But, not from a holier-than-thou point of view. Just a "whoa, we are not in Kansas anymore" point of view.

Anyway, again not a clear "answer" or position. Just talking. I do appreciate your comment. It made me think :)

undercover

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2019, 01:32:02 PM »
^ That’s interesting. I have a lawyer friend IRL who came from very similar upbringings to you (he’s a little younger) and he’s the first person I’ve met where we butt heads on lots of things. He feels like everything in life comes down to one’s decisions and that nothing is out of your control if you want it.

Luck12

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2019, 01:43:23 PM »

Do you really think class mobility is a myth? Perhaps I moved from lower middle to upper middle (or a millionaire is just straight upper class). I definitely did not have to deal with some of the things I see others dealing with (I routinely work with Latinos in my community who face actual structural racism and not the "structural" problems complained about in the article I posted originally.).

It's not a myth, but the idea that there is a lot of it and/or that the US has a high level of it relative to other first world countries is well documented as bullshit.  Also there's been a ton of research that shows the effects of a poor upbringing already begin to spring up by an early age.

Other countries have paid parental leave, affordable college, universal healthcare, and other things that help to increase class mobility.    The backwards US of course doesn't have any of these things. 

This is not to say there aren't things we can do individually like volunteering to help matters. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 03:27:26 PM by Luck12 »

SwordGuy

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2019, 01:43:42 PM »
^ That’s interesting. I have a lawyer friend IRL who came from very similar upbringings to you (he’s a little younger) and he’s the first person I’ve met where we butt heads on lots of things. He feels like everything in life comes down to one’s decisions and that nothing is out of your control if you want it.
Yeah, that will change with the first cancer diagnosis or severe car accident.

KBecks

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2019, 02:17:58 PM »
I think the right attitude is to be helpful and gracious to others, especially in giving opportunities, compassion, and encouragement.

Also, take the quotes off "rich white guy", because the shoe fits!  Congrats on your success.

Yeah, I think I agree with you completely. I follow a philosophy of "love, serve, give." It's a short way of analyzing any situation that usually leads to a superior action.

As for the quotes on "rich white guy" - that is the whole thing! It's a strange transition from anonymous "poor" regular guy to "rich white guy." People in the world treat you differently and I'm learning to adjust.

You can still be anonymous.  Stealth wealth is cool.

FIRE 20/20

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2019, 03:05:34 PM »

Do you really think class mobility is a myth? Perhaps I moved from lower middle to upper middle (or a millionaire is just straight upper class). I definitely did not have to deal with some of the things I see others dealing with (I routinely work with Latinos in my community who face actual structural racism and not the "structural" problems complained about in the article I posted originally.).

It's not a myth, but the idea that there is a lot of it and/or that the US has a high level of it relative to other first world countries is well documented as bullshit.  Also there's been a ton of research that shows the effects of a poor upbringing already begin to spring up by an early age.
 

+1

There is a gigantic gap between the idea people have about economic mobility and what the research shows.  Here are just a few papers and articles that substantiate that economic and class mobility in the US is lower than people generally think:

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/38/9527
Occupational status persists across generations in the United States to a degree incompatible with the popular theme of “land of opportunity.” Data from 1994–2016 show that median occupational status rose 0.5 point for every one-point increase in parents’ status (somewhat less if the father was absent).

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/papers/abs_mobility_paper.pdf
We find that rates of absolute mobility have fallen from approximately 90%for children born in 1940 to 50% for children born in the 1980s. The result that absolute mobility has fallen sharply over the past half century is robust to the choice of price deflator, the definition of income, and accounting for taxes and transfers.



We can certainly debate the causes of this, but at this point there isn't much debate that income mobility in the U.S. is not as high as many people believe. 

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2019, 03:34:43 PM »
Friends -

I am sure some of you have had the experience I have - or maybe some other path and want to chime in. In short, I left home at 18 with $4,000 in my pocket, saved from my own manual labor at a summer construction job. I went off to a community college that was not desirable according to my now-indebted peers. My parents offered what they could but that didn't include tuition, fees, a car, gas for my car, insurance or much else. I was given $300 per month to live (and I'm grateful for it). The rest was on me.

Here I am, 17 years later. Now I am a 35 year old "rich white man." I just became a millionaire a few weeks ago. No one wants to hear anything about how it was done or how they can do it themselves. It seems that is considered "up from your bootstraps" advice that "the poor" don't want to hear.

But, I wonder - what is the right attitude to have towards those who "have not"? I mean, those who must begin the long slog toward accumulating money and personal power to extricate themselves from dependency on others and unfortunate circumstances due to a lack of resources.   

Here is the newspaper article that brought up the question in my mind:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/air-travel-shows-what-happens-when-we-give-companies-ruinous-power-over-us/2019/11/26/6e3ce96c-0bb7-11ea-bd9d-c628fd48b3a0_story.html#comments-wrapper

Final thought, I have a particular lack of empathy for college educated citizens of this country who want to blame structural problems on their situation - like the author of this article. I'm always working with immigrants and so many of them find a way to fight with a fierce attitude under much more difficult "structural" circumstances. I respect the hell out of that.


OP, if all I read was the title of your post I would have counseled that circumspection  is  indispensable  regarding your greatly improved  financial position.

I would have advised such   because I'm all too aware of formerly poor individuals like lottery winners and heirs who fail to husband their newly acquired $ and end up poor again.

Having read your post in full I understand that you don't need this advice.

Hooray for you!

As to your attitude  vis-ŕ-vis have-nots, et al., the freedom to form it  is entirely yours.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 03:41:24 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2019, 03:44:58 PM »
The right attitude?

Gratitude. And compassion.

That’s probably the best attitude for anyone, regardless of situation.


Hear, hear!

Gratitude is the fount of happiness.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 04:13:13 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Panly

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2019, 03:58:54 PM »


  @300USD/month, you're more than 10x richer than what the Word Bank considers poverty


It seems poverty might be something else entirely.


Paul der Krake

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2019, 04:36:07 PM »
Here is the newspaper article that brought up the question in my mind:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/air-travel-shows-what-happens-when-we-give-companies-ruinous-power-over-us/2019/11/26/6e3ce96c-0bb7-11ea-bd9d-c628fd48b3a0_story.html#comments-wrapper

Final thought, I have a particular lack of empathy for college educated citizens of this country who want to blame structural problems on their situation - like the author of this article. I'm always working with immigrants and so many of them find a way to fight with a fierce attitude under much more difficult "structural" circumstances. I respect the hell out of that.
Wow, the article's author is an idiot who clearly doesn't understand air travel or how to follow instructions, but decided it was capitalism's fault.


FIREby35

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2019, 04:40:32 PM »
I think the right attitude is to be helpful and gracious to others, especially in giving opportunities, compassion, and encouragement.

Also, take the quotes off "rich white guy", because the shoe fits!  Congrats on your success.

Yeah, I think I agree with you completely. I follow a philosophy of "love, serve, give." It's a short way of analyzing any situation that usually leads to a superior action.

As for the quotes on "rich white guy" - that is the whole thing! It's a strange transition from anonymous "poor" regular guy to "rich white guy." People in the world treat you differently and I'm learning to adjust.

You can still be anonymous.  Stealth wealth is cool.

That might be part of the deal. I am an attorney so people make assumptions. Now, I just bought a building for my practice. I bought it in a public place - i.e. a well known street. The idea that I bought the building comes out in everyday language. I wasn't expecting people to connect the "lawyer" and "bought a building for his practice" to lead to a new identity as "this guy must be loaded." So, it seems the stealth part is fading for me - not voluntarily :)

FIREby35

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2019, 04:41:32 PM »
Here is the newspaper article that brought up the question in my mind:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/air-travel-shows-what-happens-when-we-give-companies-ruinous-power-over-us/2019/11/26/6e3ce96c-0bb7-11ea-bd9d-c628fd48b3a0_story.html#comments-wrapper

Final thought, I have a particular lack of empathy for college educated citizens of this country who want to blame structural problems on their situation - like the author of this article. I'm always working with immigrants and so many of them find a way to fight with a fierce attitude under much more difficult "structural" circumstances. I respect the hell out of that.
Wow, the article's author is an idiot who clearly doesn't understand air travel or how to follow instructions, but decided it was capitalism's fault.

Right?! "Structural" discrimination against the poor or him not getting it??

Villanelle

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2019, 05:06:23 PM »
You said that people don't want to hear about your rise to riches. 

Are you just telling them?  Or are they directly asking? 

I don't want to hear about someone's story, unsolicited, regardless of the details, if they just sort of vomit out the story without context.  And that's especially true when it involves a sensitive topic like money and wealth. 

EndlessJourney

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2019, 05:19:00 PM »
You said that people don't want to hear about your rise to riches. 

Are you just telling them?  Or are they directly asking? 

I don't want to hear about someone's story, unsolicited, regardless of the details, if they just sort of vomit out the story without context.  And that's especially true when it involves a sensitive topic like money and wealth.

But... but... but...

Unsolicited advice, unabashed bragging to others about frugalism/self-control/delayed gratification, and rampant judgmentalism about how others choose to spend their money are the pillars of being a Mustachian!

I am sorry, but you do not make any sense, sir.

pecunia

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2019, 05:36:08 PM »
Lots of good stories here.  People worked hard and succeeded.  Congratulations.  Please keep in mind that with the way our society is currently structured, it may be getting harder to perform your accomplishment.  What's the point?  Just something to remember when you vote or you may be one of the movers and shakers in our society to make decisions regarding the rest of us.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2019, 05:39:19 PM »
Interesting topic. All sorts of cultural myths being discussed.

Cultural myth #1 - there is a great deal of class mobility in the US. There isn’t. It does happen of course, but is pretty unusual. Most folks are born, live, and die in roughly the same economic class.

Cultural myth #2 - that you or I can do much about poverty in the macro sense*. The US government, with varying levels of enthusiasm, has targeted poverty since the 1930s. So what makes any of us think that if we do just do more of the same sorts of things that we will miraculously have success this time? We won’t. And here’s why: (1) being poor is a cultural identity that is difficult to overcome, and more importantly, (2) it isn’t at all in the interests of the political or economic leaders to end poverty.

*(that said, I do think poverty can be addressed in the micro sense, and we as decent human beings can and should step up to do what we can.)

RetiredAt63

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2019, 07:23:24 PM »
Interestingly, social mobility in Canada is alive and well. 
https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/canada-is-one-of-the-most-socially-mobile-countries-in-the-world-heres-why/

This was an interesting comment:
The fact that Canadians enjoy Scandinavian levels of equity without having to rely on Scandinavian levels of taxation or social conformity is further testament to the importance of Canada’s education, health care and welfare systems, as well as the country’s commitment to welcoming newcomers.

This suggests that in the broad picture, the best way to encourage social mobility is to support government policies that promote education, health care and welfare.  I would certainly put accessible birth control and abortion in with the rest of health care.  Privately?  Probably much the same on an individual level.

Freedomin5

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2019, 08:12:54 PM »
The right attitude?

Gratitude. And compassion.

That’s probably the best attitude for anyone, regardless of situation.

Hear, hear!

Gratitude is the fount of happiness.

And equally important...HUMILITY.

Recognize that "there by the grace of God, you go" as other posters have mentioned. You were blessed with good parents who helped out as much as they could. Blessed with a healthy body and a healthy mind. Blessed with cognitive abilities that allowed you to carry a college course load while working to fund your education. Blessed to be born in a country where you could actually access decent education and part-time work. Yes, you worked hard with what you were given, but you were given a lot to work with.

Stay humble.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2019, 10:01:08 PM »
Some people work hard and some people don't. Some people have charmed genetics and some people don't. It's as mentally lazy to excuse every struggling person's situation as being based on "things out of their control" as it is to try to extol every successful person's situation as being self-made. The reality is that most people's situation is owed partly to their own actions and partly to background circumstances over which they have little control.

HBFIRE

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2019, 10:23:47 PM »
I'm not sure I understand your question.  Why would your attitude change?  I'm the same person I was when I was broke.  Be yourself.  It seems to me you might be looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2019, 05:43:17 AM »
Here is the newspaper article that brought up the question in my mind:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/air-travel-shows-what-happens-when-we-give-companies-ruinous-power-over-us/2019/11/26/6e3ce96c-0bb7-11ea-bd9d-c628fd48b3a0_story.html#comments-wrapper

Final thought, I have a particular lack of empathy for college educated citizens of this country who want to blame structural problems on their situation - like the author of this article. I'm always working with immigrants and so many of them find a way to fight with a fierce attitude under much more difficult "structural" circumstances. I respect the hell out of that.
Wow, the article's author is an idiot who clearly doesn't understand air travel or how to follow instructions, but decided it was capitalism's fault.

Right?! "Structural" discrimination against the poor or him not getting it??

I'm about halfway through the article.  Um Greyhound overbooks, I found that out from a cousin recently.

use2betrix

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2019, 06:12:30 AM »
Everyone in the US has some sort of privilege. Do you have two eyes that can see? Can you walk? Do you have a brain that can think? Can you speak? Read? Right? We’re you raised in the slums but at least had a roof? Better than someone who lived in a box...

The truth is, for every person on here making an “excuse” why they had it hard, I can promise you there are 1000x more people that have gone through considerably, and found infinitely more success..

I have lived in over a dozen cities and 8 states in the last decade. This is 100% due to work and me constantly moving to find the best paying position, quality of life completely aside. I have worked as a contractor and sacrificed job security. I regularly work 60 hrs a week (I’d say in the last 10 years I have worked on average 60+ hr weeks 80% of time time). For 6 months In 2017/2018 I worked 13 days, 1 off (every other Sunday) for 12 hours/day. I never missed a single day or single hour. Aside from planned surgery, I haven’t taken a sick day in over 9 years. I’ve had skin cancer and 3 hernia surgeries in my 20’s. I’ve been on a project over over 5000 employees that shut its door with zero notice.

I had one job working 7/12’s with every other Sunday off at a refinery in the south, middle of the summer for 3 months, in full flame resistant clothing, understaffed and crawling through piping systems for 12 hours a day. I lost over 8 lbs my first 3 weeks. I was a welder before that, working all day in the southern heat, I’ve walked across beams 100’ off the ground with nothing to hold onto other than a safety line, walking/balancing 40’ spans on a flange that is 6” wide.

Not only do I work my ass off, I also truly believe that physical health also plays as big of a part in being successful. I have weight lifted hard 2-3 days a week. I’ve ran over 1000 miles since last summer. My diet is nearly impeccable, balanced, measured, everything. I don’t smoke, I drink sparingly.

Sure, I’ve had some breaks in life (despite having learning disabilities, a speech impediment, and only getting an associates degree with $40k in student loans).. I’m a white male, I have married parents. We grew up lower/middle class (by 23 I probably made more than my parents ever have combined).

In turn, I’m at around .1% of income for my age bracket, and about 1% net worth.

I could have had a lot of things go worse, I could have had a lot of things go better. I have also spent my life paying more to mitigate these risks (health insurance, good life insurance, auto insurance, disability insurance when offered, etc.)

I also hold myself fully accountable for my success and failures. I truly believe that any lack of further success is 100% on me. I don’t blame it on my “bad breaks.” There’s times I could have made better decisions, worked harder, made different choices. While I’ve saved a lot, I could have saved WAY more.. I still save way more than most people at my income. 

Obviously not in line with many of these posts here, but unless you are truly making a FUCK TON (vulgarity necessary) of sacrifices, then don’t blame anyone but yourself for the position you are in. Unless you’re willing to move across the country at a drop of a dime for a better job, constantly looking, sacrificing your free time, vacation, relationships, etc., your lack of success is still somewhat the result of your choices.

Would love to hear some examples of people who have pushed themselves as hard as I have in every way and more who aren’t at least somewhat successful.

Flame on..
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 06:52:09 AM by use2betrix »

Hula Hoop

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2019, 06:26:13 AM »
Unless you’re willing to move across the country at a drop of a dime for a better job, constantly looking, sacrificing your free time, vacation, relationships, etc., your lack of success is still somewhat the result of your choices.

I'm not going to flame you but let me point out that being able to move across the country at the drop of a hat is also a huge privilege.  Many women (particularly) aren't able to do that because of care/family duties.  I lived at home during college because from early teenagerhood onwards I had serious childcare duties for younger sibling(s) (single parent household).  If I had moved out of home, the entire stucture of my family would have collapsed because of my inability ot care for my much younger sibling(s).  Now as an adult, I can't move away from where I live as my husband is unwilling to move.  If I divorced him and moved back to my home country with my kids (or anywhere apart from where we currently live) I would be violating international law.  So I'm stuck here at least until my kids are 18 - despite the lack of  job opportunities for me.  My younger sister is in a similar situation with care duties for our elderly mother back in my home town. 

Having the freedom from responsibilities and care duties that allow you to just move is an amazing privilege. 

DadJokes

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2019, 06:33:41 AM »
I would agree with others that graciousness, compassion, and humility go a long way.

Of course, knowing that is very different from practicing it. I have a similar background and often find myself expecting others to be able to do the same things I've done. Can they do it? Maybe, maybe not, but that outlook benefits no one. There is middle ground between letting people wallow in self-pity and expecting everyone to be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Hopefully I can get better at adopting that mindset.

In the meantime, it's probably better to not discuss finances with people who haven't been as successful as you.

use2betrix

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2019, 06:50:30 AM »
Unless you’re willing to move across the country at a drop of a dime for a better job, constantly looking, sacrificing your free time, vacation, relationships, etc., your lack of success is still somewhat the result of your choices.

I'm not going to flame you but let me point out that being able to move across the country at the drop of a hat is also a huge privilege.  Many women (particularly) aren't able to do that because of care/family duties.  I lived at home during college because from early teenagerhood onwards I had serious childcare duties for younger sibling(s) (single parent household).  If I had moved out of home, the entire stucture of my family would have collapsed because of my inability ot care for my much younger sibling(s).  Now as an adult, I can't move away from where I live as my husband is unwilling to move.  If I divorced him and moved back to my home country with my kids (or anywhere apart from where we currently live) I would be violating international law.  So I'm stuck here at least until my kids are 18 - despite the lack of  job opportunities for me.  My younger sister is in a similar situation with care duties for our elderly mother back in my home town. 

Having the freedom from responsibilities and care duties that allow you to just move is an amazing privilege.

It’s interesting that you consider it “privilege” when everything you mentioned above, and the situation I’ve put myself in, is a choice.

Of course, some are hard choices, and in regards to helping care for siblings, I would have likely done the same. But my decisions to marry a wife who is fine with not working and moving to support my career, and our very safe sex practices (while not always 100% for all) have also allowed us to not (yet) have children.

We spent 5 years living full time in a 5th wheel with about 250 sq ft of living space, often in the middle-of-nowhere shithole places in states like Alabama and Louisiana.

Many people would consider you the privileged one. You are able to live in one home instead of moving every 6-12 months. You are able to build relationships with friends, family (possibly) etc. You are able to have your children go to school all in one place.

We both made sacrifices, and they were both very different. Many people go your path as opposed to mine. Either is fine, but we both need to acknowledge that our outcomes were largely due to decisions and sacrifices that we made to get here.

Metalcat

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2019, 07:28:57 AM »
Let me ask you a comparable question:

What's the right attitude for a former obese person who is now thin?

The research is pretty solid that losing a lot of weight and keeping it off is not typical, and yet, some of us manage to do it with just a bit of discipline.

Should we walk around telling all of the still obese people that they're just not as disciplined and capable as we are?
Or should we engage in introspection and identify the myriad factors that contribute to us being outliers, which allows us to succeed so much more easily?

If you have accomplished something that results in outlier level outcomes, chances are that there are outlier factors behind it. You probably had certain brilliant advantages, and definitely lacked a lot of substantial barriers.

You're probably healthy, you probably have an IQ above 100, I'm going to guess you didn't experience the kind of childhood trauma that makes adult impulse control difficult, etc, etc.

None of that downplays the work it took. None of that explains away your own role in your success. It's just a matter of painting a much fuller picture of what goes into someone performing well outside the norm.

Olympic athletes don't walk around ignoring genetics and pretending that it's just their discipline that got them there. Nobel prize winners don't disregard the role that their inherited intelligence and formative experiences played.

It's easy to be arrogant and simplify success down to a singular factor of hard work™, but anyone with half a brain knows that for outlier outcomes, that's highly statistically improbable.

So what should your attitude be?
The same as any outlier in a culture that encourages pride*: beaming pride with a healthy dose of gratitude and humility.

That said...that's assuming you actually performed to your max potential. Many HIGHLY accomplished people are actually lazy underperformers compared to what they could be, and they should really skip the "beaming pride" part.

So what attitude should you have?
How about this: assume that everyone's life is difficult, assume that everyone is struggling to figure out how best to live their lives, assume that everyone is under a lot of pressure, assume that no one was ever handed "The Secret Guidebook To Living A Great Life".

Do not assume that you figured all this shit out on your own, because you didn't.

And lastly, do not assume that your advice based on your personal life experience is actually helpful to anyone else. It might be, it might not be. Unless and until it starts producing beneficial results for others, assume that it isn't.

[This is highly dependent on the culture, many cultures don't foster a sense that personal accomplishment is a product of individual strength, they instead foster a sense that collective factors have a huge influence on individual accomplishment.]
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 07:32:44 AM by Malkynn »

Boofinator

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2019, 07:53:25 AM »
Humility. Empathy. Brotherly love. Basically the same attitude one should have regardless of one's position in life. Money does not change who you are, and therefore should not change how you act (with the exception of what that money can buy).

Now, that Washington Post article was bonkers. Bitching and complaining that he gets to fly across the country, but that the flight was delayed by weather and his sleeping through the make-up flight is the pure height of hubris. Ruinous power my ass.

use2betrix

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2019, 08:15:09 AM »
I should add that my responses here regarding my success in no way relate to my real life. Only my parents know my net worth, and only a few friends know my income.. No one else knows these things. I don’t talk about them, and they just see me driving to work in my 20 year old Toyota Camry and living in a 2 BR apartment in a small town..

@Malkynn

So when I sit and listen to an obese person talk about how they refuse to eat healthy or exercise and basically assume I am just “genetically lucky” I should just coddle to their feelings? I remember one day at work a 250 lb woman was chomping down on her whopper in the break room, bitching about her weight while I was sitting there choking down my bland chicken and rice.

I fucking love ice cream. My mom owned a bakery for 20 years and I’m basically proof that you can raise a kid off cookies and ice cream. I could easily eat 5000 calories a day and love it.

Do you think I “enjoy” waking up at 5 a.m. and running 20-30 miles a week while working 60 hrs a week?

Do you think I “enjoy” having my 40 calorie fudge bars for “desert” instead of a nice 1500 calorie bowl of ice cream?

Do you think I “enjoy” turning down the delicious (and free) breakfasts and lunches that my company provides nearly every single day, in turn to have my chicken/veggies, tofu salad’s, etc?


To be honest, I find it a bit insulting knowing how much harder I work both at the work place, the gym, and with my diet, to have it just “assumed” that I have “so many more privileges” than others. I did briefly get fat, by about 40 lbs. I was self aware to realize how disgusting I looked after seeing a candid picture, and took responsibility and fixed it.

I’m not saying I have no privileges, but there’s a TON of people (including on this forum) that have been given far more advantages in life but refuse put the work in that it achieves their goals.

I could not really care less who is fat or what they think, but if they start making excuses regarding things that I sacrifice every day, I’m going to make it clear to them what it takes.

FYI - there are athletes in many sports who have sub par genetics. Look at Mugsy Bogues for the NBA. He was 5’3” and played 16 seasons (based on memory) and grew up in the projects in Baltimore. Right now there’s an NFL player that doesn’t have a hand..

A few days ago I read an article about a woman who was a severe alcoholic and 90 lbs overweight who was able to lose the weight, drop the booze, and qualify for the Boston Marathon (and nearly the olympics) with a sub 2:50 marathon.

I’m never going to run in the olympics or play in the NBA, but that’s zero fucking excuse to not be the best version of me that I still can..

I’d suggest many here read a few books like, “Grit” by Angela Duckworth, “Never Give Up” by David Goggins, or “Extreme Ownership” by Jocko Willink.

Lastly - should add that I’m not a dick, nor this brash to people in real life. Everyone around me is well aware of my diet (because I rarely eat with them) and also that I exercise a lot. They often come to me for advice and I’m always thrilled to help and thrilled to know it’s going well.. Many of my friends are not this way, and that’s fine too. I’d never push anyone who didn’t ask for advice, and advice given is very mild. They’re also aware how hard I work..


« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 08:18:47 AM by use2betrix »

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2019, 08:24:10 AM »
Of course, some are hard choices, and in regards to helping care for siblings, I would have likely done the same. But my decisions to marry a wife who is fine with not working and moving to support my career.

While I'm sure there are exceptions - this choice is very rarely available to women.  I dated many men while single but, despite having a very well paid professional job, never met one who wanted to be a stay at home husband in order to follow me around while I moved up the ladder - especially before having kids.  In fact, a serious boyfriend broke up with me because he was unwilling to make sacrifices in his career to follow me to where I could get the best paid job.  While there are, of course, some exceptions, men just aren't socialized, even now, to prioritize their wife's career (especially pre-kids). I've tried to argue with my husband, who earns a lot less than me, that he would be better off as a stay at home dad but he just can't do it as I think a large part of his self image is attached to working. 

Similarly, I don't think that I would have been given the same childcare role in my family if I'd been a boy - but that is for another thread.

Anyway, as others have said, your success is not due to your hard work and sacrifices alone - it's due to a variety of social-economic factors and a lot of luck as well.

DadJokes

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2019, 08:36:56 AM »
Of course, some are hard choices, and in regards to helping care for siblings, I would have likely done the same. But my decisions to marry a wife who is fine with not working and moving to support my career.

While I'm sure there are exceptions - this choice is very rarely available to women.  I dated many men while single but, despite having a very well paid professional job, never met one who wanted to be a stay at home husband in order to follow me around while I moved up the ladder - especially before having kids.  In fact, a serious boyfriend broke up with me because he was unwilling to make sacrifices in his career to follow me to where I could get the best paid job.  While there are, of course, some exceptions, men just aren't socialized, even now, to prioritize their wife's career (especially pre-kids). I've tried to argue with my husband, who earns a lot less than me, that he would be better off as a stay at home dad but he just can't do it as I think a large part of his self image is attached to working. 

Similarly, I don't think that I would have been given the same childcare role in my family if I'd been a boy - but that is for another thread.

Anyway, as others have said, your success is not due to your hard work and sacrifices alone - it's due to a variety of social-economic factors and a lot of luck as well.

I find this hilarious because I am pursuing FI so that I can be a stay-at-home-dad, among other things.

Metalcat

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Re: What's the right attitude for a former poor person who is now "rich"?
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2019, 08:44:21 AM »
@Malkynn

So when I sit and listen to an obese person talk about how they refuse to eat healthy or exercise and basically assume I am just “genetically lucky” I should just coddle to their feelings? I remember one day at work a 250 lb woman was chomping down on her whopper in the break room, bitching about her weight while I was sitting there choking down my bland chicken and rice.

I fucking love ice cream. My mom owned a bakery for 20 years and I’m basically proof that you can raise a kid off cookies and ice cream. I could easily eat 5000 calories a day and love it.

Do you think I “enjoy” waking up at 5 a.m. and running 20-30 miles a week while working 60 hrs a week?

Do you think I “enjoy” having my 40 calorie fudge bars for “desert” instead of a nice 1500 calorie bowl of ice cream?

Do you think I “enjoy” turning down the delicious (and free) breakfasts and lunches that my company provides nearly every single day, in turn to have my chicken/veggies, tofu salad’s, etc?


To be honest, I find it a bit insulting knowing how much harder I work both at the work place, the gym, and with my diet, to have it just “assumed” that I have “so many more privileges” than others. I did briefly get fat, by about 40 lbs. I was self aware to realize how disgusting I looked after seeing a candid picture, and took responsibility and fixed it.

I’m not saying I have no privileges, but there’s a TON of people (including on this forum) that have been given far more advantages in life but refuse put the work in that it achieves their goals.

I could not really care less who is fat or what they think, but if they start making excuses regarding things that I sacrifice every day, I’m going to make it clear to them what it takes.

FYI - there are athletes in many sports who have sub par genetics. Look at Mugsy Bogues for the NBA. He was 5’3” and played 16 seasons (based on memory) and grew up in the projects in Baltimore. Right now there’s an NFL player that doesn’t have a hand..

A few days ago I read an article about a woman who was a severe alcoholic and 90 lbs overweight who was able to lose the weight, drop the booze, and qualify for the Boston Marathon (and nearly the olympics) with a sub 2:50 marathon.

I’m never going to run in the olympics or play in the NBA, but that’s zero fucking excuse to not be the best version of me that I still can..

I’d suggest many here read a few books like, “Grit” by Angela Duckworth, “Never Give Up” by David Goggins, or “Extreme Ownership” by Jocko Willink.

FYI - I should add that I’m not a dick, nor theisbrash to people in real life. Everyone around me is well aware of my diet (because I rarely eat with them) and also that I exercise a lot. They often come to me for advice and I’m always thrilled to help and thrilled to know it’s going well.. Many of my friends are not this way, and that’s fine too. I’d never push anyone who didn’t ask for advice, and advice given is very mild. They’re also aware how hard I work..

I think you 100% missed my point.

Did I say anything about the Olympic athlete not putting in the work to accomplish their goals???
Nope.

Did I say anything about coddling people for a lack of effort?
Nope.

Do I think it's a dick move to automatically assume that someone is just lazier than you if they don't achieve your same level of success?
Uh...yeah, kind of.

I had an obese assistant who could never stick to diets. She would always lose about 15lbs rapidly and then would get discouraged when the weight loss slowed, and then she would give up and eat her way to a net gain.

She was also an emotional eater who binged in response to stress. Her mom was also an emotional eater who binged in response to stress. She had a lifetime of behavioural patterns that needed to be addressed in order to resolve the reactions that perpetually led to spectacular diet failure.

Her mistake was assuming that what she needed was just more knuckle-down discipline, that just finding the right diet and the right motivation would work. What she really needed was to heal a lot of the emotional wounds that were tied up with her maladaptation of over eating in response to strong negative feelings of shame.

For her, as is true for a lot of people, the best diet was actually a really good therapist. It still took hard work for her to lose weight, but it took even more psychological work to remove the barriers to success.

Had she not sought appropriate therapy, no amount of advice from others who knuckled-down and succeeded would have likely helped. In fact, it furthered her sense of shame, which helped trigger her self sabotaging behaviours.

It turns out that she had plenty of discipline, but she lacked the emotional health to be able to utilize it effectively to achieve her desired outcome. She's by no means thin now, but she's maintaining a much healthier weight. She's also by no means perfectly emotionally healthy, so those factors still play a role in her habits. Still, she's infinitely healthier both mentally and physically and continues to work on it.

I'm not saying that's everyone's case, it's just one example of one person's multifactorial path to success and the profound barriers she encountered along the way.

My entire point is that all outcomes are multifactorial, and it's erroneous to attribute success or failure to singular factors, such as effort alone.

In no way does that minimize the effort. In no way does that give sweeping permission to anyone to not put in effort.
The Olympic athlete has to work their ass off to win.

I'm actually kind of fascinated how you took that message from my previous post. This is not a criticism of you, it's me wondering how I managed to fail so spectacularly in making my point...

ETA: Please note, just like you, I even specifically pointed out that many people don't even manage to accomplish according to the level of their own potential and advantages.

Outcome is often actually a pretty piss poor indicator of effort.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 08:53:28 AM by Malkynn »