Spouse isn't using the power of FU money

[wageslave23]

My wife is a nurse, she likes her job but nurses in general get taken advantage of a lot by employers.  She works part time, 2 twelve hour shifts per week.  She started at a new hospital last year.  You have to put in your time working night shift until there is an opening for day shift.  She got passed over a few months ago for a days shift opening because the person below her on the day shift wait list just went through a divorce and "needed" the position.  Now it is finally her turn and they are wanting her to keep working night shift every 3rd weekend because they don't have enough experienced staff on that weekend. 

I want her to move to days because we are planning on trying to have a baby and I'm nervous about what nightshift does to hormones, etc.  She isn't as concerned, but does want a baby ASAP and is totally sick of working nights.  Its very hard on her physically and mentally. 

She has said that she thinks its unfair that they are keeping her on nights but she doesn't seem to be able to really say what she thinks to her manager.  I coach her on what to say - that this is BS, that she already got screwed over once, and now they are screwing her over again and holding her experience against her, and that she doesn't need this job and will simply quit if she isn't allowed to move fully to days and then they won't have any experienced nurses on her nighshift weekend anyways.  But she is too programmed to be nice and not rock the boat, and be a team player, etc.  She agrees with my opinion and what she "should" say.  But I think subconsciously she still thinks that we need the job and that she should be a good employee. 

It frustrates me to no end, because this job is affecting her, possibly our future baby, and indirectly me.  We are very close to FI, I have a very good job, and having a baby soon is the most important thing to her.  Ideally, we would both like for her to keep her part time job for the next 5-10 years because she actually likes it a lot of the time and it keeps padding our stache.  But I think in situations like this, you have to be willing to at least bluff at quitting for a d bag employer to take you seriously.  I have always used the threat that I would leave to leverage what I wanted at jobs and I wasn't even FI in the past. 

Any suggestions, for her or me?

[Mustache ride]

It might not be a popular opinion on this site, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to give your employer an ultimatum unless/until it's your last resort. There are many different ways to get your point across without point blank saying you will quit, especially if it's the first conversation. It tends to make managers defensive and you're less likely to get what you want. We like to put those epic FU stories on a pedestal, but you are much more likely to get what you want by framing things correctly and playing "nice". It's not clear from your post if she already has the day shift position, or if the night shift requirement is a condition of getting the position, but I think a simple I'm no longer interested in working night gives a clear message to management without having to say I'll quit.

[jrhampt]

Night shift sucks for the spouse of the night shift worker too (speaking as spouse of former night shift worker).  I agree she should tell her boss she's done working nights.  Not to make it all about you, but have you mentioned to her that this is affecting your relationship?  Not in the sense of an ultimatum or anything, but that you miss her and want to see her on the weekends?  She may find it easier to draw the line with her boss if she knows she's also doing it for you and doesn't feel she's just being selfish or something.

[ixtap]

She shouldn't say any of the stuff you have coached her to say. She should simply say "No." Perhaps remind them that she was a team player when they gave her slot away, but now it has been even longer than it should have been and she needs days for her own mental health and family well being, just like the other employee did at that time. Nothing about BS or being screwed or any of the other temper tantrum wording.

If she can't or won't do that, you should drop it for the time being and not stress her out even more.

[OtherJen]

She shouldn't say any of the stuff you have coached her to say. She should simply say "No." Perhaps remind them that she was a team player when they gave her slot away, but now it has been even longer than it should have been and she needs days for her own mental health and family well being, just like the other employee did at that time. Nothing about BS or being screwed or any of the other temper tantrum wording.

If she can't or won't do that, you should drop it for the time being and not stress her out even more.

All of this.

[wageslave23]

It might not be a popular opinion on this site, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to give your employer an ultimatum unless/until it's your last resort. There are many different ways to get your point across without point blank saying you will quit, especially if it's the first conversation. It tends to make managers defensive and you're less likely to get what you want. We like to put those epic FU stories on a pedestal, but you are much more likely to get what you want by framing things correctly and playing "nice". It's not clear from your post if she already has the day shift position, or if the night shift requirement is a condition of getting the position, but I think a simple I'm no longer interested in working night gives a clear message to management without having to say I'll quit.

Sorry, I didn't give a full background.  But yes, she has made it abundantly clear for the past six months to the point of being pest.  When she was passed up the first time, she asked for a meeting with her boss and then her boss's boss.  She was doing them a favor by agreeing to be "in charge" on her nightshift weekends and now its being held against her.  The way it works is that all new openings are on night shift.  So you get hired on as night shift and then ask to be put on the dayshift wait list.  Its her turn to move to days, they will move her to days for most of her shifts but want her to stay on nightshift every third week when its her weekend to work.  The "plan" is that they will bring on more experienced nurses soon and that she will then fully move to days.  I don't agree with the "plan" part of this.  Because they have continually jerked her around in the past and she has no recourse except to accept whatever they say.

[wageslave23]

She shouldn't say any of the stuff you have coached her to say. She should simply say "No." Perhaps remind them that she was a team player when they gave her slot away, but now it has been even longer than it should have been and she needs days for her own mental health and family well being, just like the other employee did at that time. Nothing about BS or being screwed or any of the other temper tantrum wording.

If she can't or won't do that, you should drop it for the time being and not stress her out even more.

She has already said exactly what you said.

[wageslave23]

Night shift sucks for the spouse of the night shift worker too (speaking as spouse of former night shift worker).  I agree she should tell her boss she's done working nights.  Not to make it all about you, but have you mentioned to her that this is affecting your relationship?  Not in the sense of an ultimatum or anything, but that you miss her and want to see her on the weekends?  She may find it easier to draw the line with her boss if she knows she's also doing it for you and doesn't feel she's just being selfish or something.

She knows that it effects me too.  The fact that it could effect our future baby is the thing that aggravates both of us the most.  Her thinking that she won't be able to get pregnant, and me that it will effect the development of the baby.

[Adventine]

It sounds to me like she's not as convinced as you are of the power of your FU money.

It seems that your efforts to coach her to be more assertive are not getting the results that you want. How about taking a different approach? Instead of encouraging her to bluff at quitting, how about upping the amount of loving reassurance you give her, so that she feels empowered to simply walk away from this bad situation at work?

[NonprofitER]

Another spouse of an RN who works night shifts (ICU, CCU, transport team, ECMO team).

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. I loathe my spouse having to work any night shifts. He was lucky enough to start on days when he started at his hospital 10 years ago. When he advanced onto the transport team (his goal), he got slotted into rotating between nights/days. We were told that would be a "1 - 2 year" prospect before he go back to only days. It's now 2 years later, and he's likely won't get back fully onto days for another year or two.

What I've learned watching him is that hospital nursing is a team sport. He is now the most experienced RN in his respective departments - and that means he's often asked to be the flexible one. When they have a ton of travel or newer nurses in the CCU and a complicated heart transplant is coming down the pike - my husband gets called, regardless of whether he's already done "his nights" or "his slotted weekend shifts". Our mustachian choice to live 1 mile from the hospital also lends to this happening - if a critical shortage is happening, they know he's only 5 min away.

He has used his flexibility/availability as an advancement strategy - he's frequently recognized by upper management, and no one gives him a word of push back when we take off for extended vacations (travel hacking). He also regularly secures extra shift differentials, negotiating extra shift bonus pay, etc. So financially, its been a boon. Basically, he's made himself indispensable.

I get the pressure your wife feels to be flexible. It's hard to say "nope - I won't" when you know you're the most experienced and that patient care will suffer in your absence. My only advice is that if she's going to continue to be flexible in the interest of the team, she be compensated for that flexibility accordingly. That compensation could be extra $$$, but it could also be negotiating extra paid leave, or getting priority in taking off specific holidays (she probably doesn't want to work Xmas eve and Xmas morning on baby's first holiday, etc.).
 

[draco44]

I can understand this being frustrating for you both. But I'm unclear what your wife's alternatives are. You say she started fairly recently at this current hospital. Why did she switch to her current hospital in the first place? And if she applied elsewhere for a job, would she be facing an even worse situation? Is that also true if she looks for part-time rather than full-time employment? If you aren't actually financially prepared for her to fully quit, and it sounds like you're not, that's all something to consider. Bluffing is more dangerous than honestly saying she doesn't need this job.

[KarefulKactus15]

I'm too biased against night shift to provide a fair answer.... (I worked night shift in a factory for years.  The improvement of my mental space and general well being and health being straight days is amazing.)

All that being said, it's hard to do assertive coaching... As someone else said maybe support is the way to go so it's less stress.  Some people are overwhelmed with anxiety at the thought of telling someone no, those people are usually taken advantage of....

With all that - are there not any day shift positions for an RN? ( I don't know much about the health industry).

[wageslave23]

It sounds to me like she's not as convinced as you are of the power of your FU money.

It seems that your efforts to coach her to be more assertive are not getting the results that you want. How about taking a different approach? Instead of encouraging her to bluff at quitting, how about upping the amount of loving reassurance you give her, so that she feels empowered to simply walk away from this bad situation at work?

Thank you for the reminder, I do reassure her that I am frustrated with her employer and not with her.  She is able to be assertive when not speaking to them directly.  She even asked me to help her craft an email to her boss after she met with her in person regarding being skipped over a few months ago.  Neither of us want her to leave her job, I just suggested that it be a tool in her toolbox if it came to that.  Although it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if she did quit, but we are still a long way from that.

[wageslave23]

Another spouse of an RN who works night shifts (ICU, CCU, transport team, ECMO team).

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. I loathe my spouse having to work any night shifts. He was lucky enough to start on days when he started at his hospital 10 years ago. When he advanced onto the transport team (his goal), he got slotted into rotating between nights/days. We were told that would be a "1 - 2 year" prospect before he go back to only days. It's now 2 years later, and he's likely won't get back fully onto days for another year or two.

What I've learned watching him is that hospital nursing is a team sport. He is now the most experienced RN in his respective departments - and that means he's often asked to be the flexible one. When they have a ton of travel or newer nurses in the CCU and a complicated heart transplant is coming down the pike - my husband gets called, regardless of whether he's already done "his nights" or "his slotted weekend shifts". Our mustachian choice to live 1 mile from the hospital also lends to this happening - if a critical shortage is happening, they know he's only 5 min away.

He has used his flexibility/availability as an advancement strategy - he's frequently recognized by upper management, and no one gives him a word of push back when we take off for extended vacations (travel hacking). He also regularly secures extra shift differentials, negotiating extra shift bonus pay, etc. So financially, its been a boon. Basically, he's made himself indispensable.

I get the pressure your wife feels to be flexible. It's hard to say "nope - I won't" when you know you're the most experienced and that patient care will suffer in your absence. My only advice is that if she's going to continue to be flexible in the interest of the team, she be compensated for that flexibility accordingly. That compensation could be extra $$$, but it could also be negotiating extra paid leave, or getting priority in taking off specific holidays (she probably doesn't want to work Xmas eve and Xmas morning on baby's first holiday, etc.).

Thanks for the perspective, it is hard for me to grasp the team concept.  I look at work as a business transaction and nurses look at it as a family.  The thing is there have been a number of things that have happened that show that management doesn't look at it as a family.  Such as two weeks after she started, they put a freeze on all PTO accrual, and eliminated 7% profit sharing bonus.  The aforementioned, skipping over her for someone else because they "needed" it more than her.  Not taking the last several months to train someone else, while she was doing them a favor by filling in and being charge nurse for them on her weekends.  And they do not give her any flexibility or added $$$.  Everything is "policy" until its "policy" is inconvenient to them. 

[KarefulKactus15]

Another spouse of an RN who works night shifts (ICU, CCU, transport team, ECMO team).

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. I loathe my spouse having to work any night shifts. He was lucky enough to start on days when he started at his hospital 10 years ago. When he advanced onto the transport team (his goal), he got slotted into rotating between nights/days. We were told that would be a "1 - 2 year" prospect before he go back to only days. It's now 2 years later, and he's likely won't get back fully onto days for another year or two.

What I've learned watching him is that hospital nursing is a team sport. He is now the most experienced RN in his respective departments - and that means he's often asked to be the flexible one. When they have a ton of travel or newer nurses in the CCU and a complicated heart transplant is coming down the pike - my husband gets called, regardless of whether he's already done "his nights" or "his slotted weekend shifts". Our mustachian choice to live 1 mile from the hospital also lends to this happening - if a critical shortage is happening, they know he's only 5 min away.

He has used his flexibility/availability as an advancement strategy - he's frequently recognized by upper management, and no one gives him a word of push back when we take off for extended vacations (travel hacking). He also regularly secures extra shift differentials, negotiating extra shift bonus pay, etc. So financially, its been a boon. Basically, he's made himself indispensable.

I get the pressure your wife feels to be flexible. It's hard to say "nope - I won't" when you know you're the most experienced and that patient care will suffer in your absence. My only advice is that if she's going to continue to be flexible in the interest of the team, she be compensated for that flexibility accordingly. That compensation could be extra $$$, but it could also be negotiating extra paid leave, or getting priority in taking off specific holidays (she probably doesn't want to work Xmas eve and Xmas morning on baby's first holiday, etc.).

Thanks for the perspective, it is hard for me to grasp the team concept.  I look at work as a business transaction and nurses look at it as a family.  The thing is there have been a number of things that have happened that show that management doesn't look at it as a family.  Such as two weeks after she started, they put a freeze on all PTO accrual, and eliminated 7% profit sharing bonus.  The aforementioned, skipping over her for someone else because they "needed" it more than her.  Not taking the last several months to train someone else, while she was doing them a favor by filling in and being charge nurse for them on her weekends.  And they do not give her any flexibility or added $$$.  Everything is "policy" until its "policy" is inconvenient to them.

I mean that basically describes the standard operating procedure of every mega corp I've ever interacted with, TBH

[wageslave23]

I'm too biased against night shift to provide a fair answer.... (I worked night shift in a factory for years.  The improvement of my mental space and general well being and health being straight days is amazing.)

All that being said, it's hard to do assertive coaching... As someone else said maybe support is the way to go so it's less stress.  Some people are overwhelmed with anxiety at the thought of telling someone no, those people are usually taken advantage of....

With all that - are there not any day shift positions for an RN? ( I don't know much about the health industry).

The best jobs are hard to get into so you have to start as night shift usually.  There are other jobs like working at a medical office that are days right away, but they are usually about 25% less pay.  She wouldn't mind doing that and I keep telling her the 25% paycut doesn't really matter, but I think she wants to "get paid what's she worth".  I don't blame her, nurses really do get the short end of the stick in compensation and working conditions for what the do and the schooling required.  I don't actually think she should quit.  But since it wouldn't really bother us if she did, I don't think it hurts to at least put the idea in their mind.  Otherwise, I don't blame them, the easy way is to just keep having her do what they need her to do.  So what if she doesn't agree with it or its not fair.  She's going to keep doing a good job and there's no way she would leave (their thinking).

I think at the end of the day, I really just want her to stand up for herself and not get taken advantage of.  But you are right, its hard to coach someone to be assertive.

[KarefulKactus15]

And that's why I'm too biased!

25% pay raise to go against the sleep schedule humans have evolved and adapted for..... Seems laughable.

I'd want at least 100% or more to compensate for night work.... That's obviously not how the world works lol.

*Edit - for what it's worth -
My ex and me were in a similar place where I moved to days and she still did swing shift.  There were times I wouldn't even see her for 3-4 days due to twelve hours shifts and working opposite shifts.

She took a 9-5 mon-fri job in the same field at about a 20-25% pay cut.   WORTH IT! 250% WOULD DO AGAIN!
As a side note she was promoted like 6 months later so the pay gap was only 10%.

So many aspects of life instantly improved that very week.

Again I'm super biased....

[Adventine]

It sounds to me like she's not as convinced as you are of the power of your FU money.

It seems that your efforts to coach her to be more assertive are not getting the results that you want. How about taking a different approach? Instead of encouraging her to bluff at quitting, how about upping the amount of loving reassurance you give her, so that she feels empowered to simply walk away from this bad situation at work?

Thank you for the reminder, I do reassure her that I am frustrated with her employer and not with her.  She is able to be assertive when not speaking to them directly.  She even asked me to help her craft an email to her boss after she met with her in person regarding being skipped over a few months ago.  Neither of us want her to leave her job, I just suggested that it be a tool in her toolbox if it came to that.  Although it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if she did quit, but we are still a long way from that.

Bluffing is definitely one tool in the negotiation toolbox, but I've always been of the opinion that one shouldn't make threats unless one is prepared to carry them out.

I would say continue to be loving and supportive, and encourage her to push back against night shift work in any way you can, but to do it in a way that doesn't cause friction between the two of you.

And that's why I'm too biased!

25% pay raise to go against the sleep schedule humans have evolved and adapted for..... Seems laughable.

I'd want at least 100% or more to compensate for night work.... That's obviously not how the world works lol.

I used to do night shift work for a 20% premium over the day shift workers. I lasted 3 months before I said, "screw this, it's not worth it" and resigned.

[wageslave23]

And that's why I'm too biased!

25% pay raise to go against the sleep schedule humans have evolved and adapted for..... Seems laughable.

I'd want at least 100% or more to compensate for night work.... That's obviously not how the world works lol.

That's what I said.  I wouldn't work night shift for $200k a year, let alone what nurses get paid.  That's why there is always a shortage of nightshift nurses, because the hospitals won't pay what the market says they should.  They also are always short on people willing to be "in charge".  But its $4 more per hour and a lot more stress and responsibility.  $4/hr more, I'd tell them to go F*** themselves.  Which is why she is still stuck on weekend nights, because no one else wants to do it.

[OtherJen]

It sounds to me like she's not as convinced as you are of the power of your FU money.

It seems that your efforts to coach her to be more assertive are not getting the results that you want. How about taking a different approach? Instead of encouraging her to bluff at quitting, how about upping the amount of loving reassurance you give her, so that she feels empowered to simply walk away from this bad situation at work?

Thank you for the reminder, I do reassure her that I am frustrated with her employer and not with her.  She is able to be assertive when not speaking to them directly.  She even asked me to help her craft an email to her boss after she met with her in person regarding being skipped over a few months ago.  Neither of us want her to leave her job, I just suggested that it be a tool in her toolbox if it came to that.  Although it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if she did quit, but we are still a long way from that.

Bluffing is definitely one tool in the negotiation toolbox, but I've always been of the opinion that one shouldn't make threats unless one is prepared to carry them out.

I would say continue to be loving and supportive, and encourage her to push back against night shift work in any way you can, but to do it in a way that doesn't cause friction between the two of you.

Yes. It’s the “comfort in, dump out” process of helping someone to deal with a stressful situation. She’s at the center of the situation. Your job is to help her without adding to her stress, which might mean listening without trying to solve, or asking her if she wants advice or just needs to vent (and then doing that). Coming here and/or going to friends to “dump out” your own stress is a good idea because it isn’t putting more stress back on her.

[wageslave23]

It sounds to me like she's not as convinced as you are of the power of your FU money.

It seems that your efforts to coach her to be more assertive are not getting the results that you want. How about taking a different approach? Instead of encouraging her to bluff at quitting, how about upping the amount of loving reassurance you give her, so that she feels empowered to simply walk away from this bad situation at work?

Thank you for the reminder, I do reassure her that I am frustrated with her employer and not with her.  She is able to be assertive when not speaking to them directly.  She even asked me to help her craft an email to her boss after she met with her in person regarding being skipped over a few months ago.  Neither of us want her to leave her job, I just suggested that it be a tool in her toolbox if it came to that.  Although it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if she did quit, but we are still a long way from that.

Bluffing is definitely one tool in the negotiation toolbox, but I've always been of the opinion that one shouldn't make threats unless one is prepared to carry them out.

I would say continue to be loving and supportive, and encourage her to push back against night shift work in any way you can, but to do it in a way that doesn't cause friction between the two of you.

Yes. It’s the “comfort in, dump out” process of helping someone to deal with a stressful situation. She’s at the center of the situation. Your job is to help her without adding to her stress, which might mean listening without trying to solve, or asking her if she wants advice or just needs to vent (and then doing that). Coming here and/or going to friends to “dump out” your own stress is a good idea because it isn’t putting more stress back on her.

I agree when dealing with a stressful situation that you can't do anything about.  But she clearly has some options in this case.  Plus, she agrees that she needs to be more assertive but can't bring herself to do it in person.  She wants me to help her craft another email.  Which might help, but in my experience there is a lot of art to being assertive in situations like this and its best to do it in person.  Otherwise, she's angry and frustrated and expresses it to me and her coworkers, is even willing to express it in an email, but then in person caves and just goes along with what they say when push comes to shove.  It probably comes across as passive aggressive or bipolar to her employer.  We both agree that what she should say to her manager (in person) is that she feels she hasn't been treated fairly, that she is being punished for her experience and that her willingness to help out is being held against her.  That she is willing to help train the next person for the rest of this schedule period but after that she does not want to be on night shift any longer.  If that is not the case, then she will need to explore other options.  (All said in a calm, matter of fact manner). 

[Rhinodad]

I think the thought process should be that this is a "supply/demand" issue. I wouldn't even say it's using FU money.

Your wife continues to accept the offer the hospital puts forth. Her real only option is to ask to go to day shift, and if they say "no", then the alternative is to not accept the offer, and find another job. Every time she goes into work, then she is agreeing to their terms, each and every time. A part time good nurse is in super high demand around here. I wouldn't even bluff or threaten. If they say no, then I just would coach her to say "ok", and leave the office...and go straight to HR and put in her notice. I can't imagine she couldn't find a job within a day...whether thats in a hospital, nursing home, assisted living, homecare, or even nurse navigating.

[wageslave23]

I think the thought process should be that this is a "supply/demand" issue. I wouldn't even say it's using FU money.

Your wife continues to accept the offer the hospital puts forth. Her real only option is to ask to go to day shift, and if they say "no", then the alternative is to not accept the offer, and find another job. Every time she goes into work, then she is agreeing to their terms, each and every time. A part time good nurse is in super high demand around here. I wouldn't even bluff or threaten. If they say no, then I just would coach her to say "ok", and leave the office...and go straight to HR and put in her notice. I can't imagine she couldn't find a job within a day...whether thats in a hospital, nursing home, assisted living, homecare, or even nurse navigating.

That's mostly my take on it.  However there is some nuance to it, because hospital jobs pay the best.  It is the closest, cushiest hospital position in the area.  She would have to put in her time at nightshift at all of other good, local hospitals.  It sucks because she put in her time already and is very close to reaping the reward.  Thats why the "bluff" makes the most sense to me.  There's no risk because there is zero chance they let her go.  She also wouldn't say that she is going to quit, only that she will need to explore her options and that leaving might be one of them.  I just want the idea planted in their minds so that they realize she does have some leverage.

[KarefulKactus15]

I think the thought process should be that this is a "supply/demand" issue. I wouldn't even say it's using FU money.

Your wife continues to accept the offer the hospital puts forth. Her real only option is to ask to go to day shift, and if they say "no", then the alternative is to not accept the offer, and find another job. Every time she goes into work, then she is agreeing to their terms, each and every time. A part time good nurse is in super high demand around here. I wouldn't even bluff or threaten. If they say no, then I just would coach her to say "ok", and leave the office...and go straight to HR and put in her notice. I can't imagine she couldn't find a job within a day...whether thats in a hospital, nursing home, assisted living, homecare, or even nurse navigating.

That's mostly my take on it.  However there is some nuance to it, because hospital jobs pay the best.  It is the closest, cushiest hospital position in the area.  She would have to put in her time at nightshift at all of other good, local hospitals.  It sucks because she put in her time already and is very close to reaping the reward.  That's why the "bluff" makes the most sense to me.  There's no risk because there is zero chance they let her go.  She also wouldn't say that she is going to quit, only that she will need to explore her options and that leaving might be one of them.  I just want the idea planted in their minds so that they realize she does have some leverage.

"BATNA" - From the book "Getting to Yes"  - Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement - What is your spouses?   I really dont support the bluff tactic.    If anything maybe a frank conversation with the boss that "If xyz doesnt improve I will be forced to start looking for another job" - If thats how she truly feels.     But NOTHING will give her the negotiating confidence like having a better offer in hand already. 

As someone else said, the terms are on the table. Shes getting the short end AND AGREEING TO IT...    "The squeaky wheel gets the grease"   - For anyone here who has been in management, its always easier to dump work on the person who complains the least.  Its not a good practice, but we have all been guilty of it.

Also a funny video about not problem solving when someone needs to vent =D

https://youtu.be/yWcEhtg7W3s

[NumberJohnny5]

My wife is also a nurse, and we've run into the "gotta work night shift before moving to days" thing.

IMO, staying on nights is better than alternating. When we were younger it wasn't that hard to switch from days to nights and back. Sometime in our 30s that changed. Now in our 40s, it's a no-go.

My wife has also been passed up in favor of brand-new nurses. Apparently the reasoning is that not all the brand-new nurses can go to night shift, because then night shift wouldn't have anyone experienced. That's our problem...why?

Anyway, there's a few simple solutions. The easiest all the way around is to just sign up for a PRN position and ONLY sign up for day shift. If they try to call her in for night shift...gosh, sorry, but she's been up all day and she can't come in because staying up 24 hours without sleep is a patient safety issue. Sign up for three shifts early in the week. Odds are she'll be called off for one of them. If she's called off for multiple, she can likely make it up later in the week. Helps if she's able to work multiple areas. I.e. if she does MedSurg but can also work ICU and Rehab, that'd help. Or if she does L&D but can also do MotherBaby and Nursery. If she's getting all three shifts a week, she can easily pull back and just sign up for two. As PRN she will likely get no benefits (this can be a positive actually, if she can't get insurance through her employer she may be "forced" to get an ACA plan with tax subsidies that make it free and actually come out ahead); do the math, she'll probably come close to breaking even with the higher rate of pay vs no PTO.

If they ask why she wants to go PRN, she can tell them that she is not going to work nights anymore, and understands that there is not a part-time position available currently that is 100% days. They may try saying she can't do PRN or that she HAS to do nights as PRN...check the wording of the PRN contract, it likely says she HAS to sign up for X shifts per Y weeks, or per pay period, or what-not...but probably won't say they must be nights (doesn't mean it's impossible, so do check). Anyway, there's a decent chance that a part-time position that is ONLY days may suddenly become available.

So far we haven't bluffed. She hasn't threatened to walk if she doesn't get days, she's just trying to game the system a bit. Let's up the stakes a bit, in case option #1 didn't work. Ask for written references from her manger(s) and coworkers. If she gets the "we can't give references, we can only say person X has worked here for Y years and is/is not eligible for rehire" then she can ask for a letter stating that (but she still should be able to get written references from coworkers; in fact I'd get a couple during the night shift and leave a form with the manager to fill out the next day; if she gets the "we can't give references" bit, at least she has a couple already). When confronted, state that she is applying for day positions. If they "know" that there are no day positions available at any local hospital, she can say she knows and she's working with an agency to find a short-term contract for three months (can also say she's looking into travel nursing, those contracts are generally three months). Even if this "backfires" it'd likely be in the form of her manager being upset at her (if she works nights and the manager works during the day...this shouldn't be a big issue). I seriously doubt they'd fire her over this, or cut her hours...it's possible, just not likely. Plus it wouldn't look good on the manager if they lose a good nurse over something like this.

For option #2 to have the best shot at working, she needs to follow through and actually get a profile setup with multiple agencies, maybe a couple that are local and another couple that do travel assignments. If she has a compact license (think it's now called a multi-state license, she can work in multiple states without having to get a license in that particular state) all the better.

Option #3, just stay on nights. If you both are young and in good health, and don't try to keep changing the schedule (if she works nights, then she needs to sleep during the day and be up at nights even when she's not working), that's preferable to constantly being jet-lagged due to switching between days and nights. Once she gives birth she can use up any PTO (and possibly short-term disability, apply for benefits if they're available!), then easily switch to days. I mean, if divorce is a reason to jump the queue to go to days, then surely being a new parent is a valid reason.

[ctuser1]

I would request the OP to step back and consider that this may be a "values" issue.

My DW is widely regarded by everyone (including my DD) as a workaholic. I have tried to explain to her that she has the ability to say FU. She even listened to me once. She quit a job when they were trying to take advantage of her and walking back on previous commitments. However, she was miserable for the month or two it took her to find her next gig, AND as a bonus she would blame me constantly for it. We had a few fun dinner table conversations over it.

Some people can't do "lazy". My DW goes batsh*t nuts when she does not have anything to do, and she has invested that energy to her "work" at this point. So all my bloviating about "freedom" or "FU money" makes as much sense to her as Japanese Haiku poetry does.

tl;dr
Please make sure the problem is not one of differences between what you and your DW values most in life. You generally can't change her innate nature, stop trying. Try to understand what she really wants even if that is unintelligible to you currently.

 

[wageslave23]

My wife is also a nurse, and we've run into the "gotta work night shift before moving to days" thing.

IMO, staying on nights is better than alternating. When we were younger it wasn't that hard to switch from days to nights and back. Sometime in our 30s that changed. Now in our 40s, it's a no-go.

My wife has also been passed up in favor of brand-new nurses. Apparently the reasoning is that not all the brand-new nurses can go to night shift, because then night shift wouldn't have anyone experienced. That's our problem...why?

Anyway, there's a few simple solutions. The easiest all the way around is to just sign up for a PRN position and ONLY sign up for day shift. If they try to call her in for night shift...gosh, sorry, but she's been up all day and she can't come in because staying up 24 hours without sleep is a patient safety issue. Sign up for three shifts early in the week. Odds are she'll be called off for one of them. If she's called off for multiple, she can likely make it up later in the week. Helps if she's able to work multiple areas. I.e. if she does MedSurg but can also work ICU and Rehab, that'd help. Or if she does L&D but can also do MotherBaby and Nursery. If she's getting all three shifts a week, she can easily pull back and just sign up for two. As PRN she will likely get no benefits (this can be a positive actually, if she can't get insurance through her employer she may be "forced" to get an ACA plan with tax subsidies that make it free and actually come out ahead); do the math, she'll probably come close to breaking even with the higher rate of pay vs no PTO.

If they ask why she wants to go PRN, she can tell them that she is not going to work nights anymore, and understands that there is not a part-time position available currently that is 100% days. They may try saying she can't do PRN or that she HAS to do nights as PRN...check the wording of the PRN contract, it likely says she HAS to sign up for X shifts per Y weeks, or per pay period, or what-not...but probably won't say they must be nights (doesn't mean it's impossible, so do check). Anyway, there's a decent chance that a part-time position that is ONLY days may suddenly become available.

So far we haven't bluffed. She hasn't threatened to walk if she doesn't get days, she's just trying to game the system a bit. Let's up the stakes a bit, in case option #1 didn't work. Ask for written references from her manger(s) and coworkers. If she gets the "we can't give references, we can only say person X has worked here for Y years and is/is not eligible for rehire" then she can ask for a letter stating that (but she still should be able to get written references from coworkers; in fact I'd get a couple during the night shift and leave a form with the manager to fill out the next day; if she gets the "we can't give references" bit, at least she has a couple already). When confronted, state that she is applying for day positions. If they "know" that there are no day positions available at any local hospital, she can say she knows and she's working with an agency to find a short-term contract for three months (can also say she's looking into travel nursing, those contracts are generally three months). Even if this "backfires" it'd likely be in the form of her manager being upset at her (if she works nights and the manager works during the day...this shouldn't be a big issue). I seriously doubt they'd fire her over this, or cut her hours...it's possible, just not likely. Plus it wouldn't look good on the manager if they lose a good nurse over something like this.

For option #2 to have the best shot at working, she needs to follow through and actually get a profile setup with multiple agencies, maybe a couple that are local and another couple that do travel assignments. If she has a compact license (think it's now called a multi-state license, she can work in multiple states without having to get a license in that particular state) all the better.

Option #3, just stay on nights. If you both are young and in good health, and don't try to keep changing the schedule (if she works nights, then she needs to sleep during the day and be up at nights even when she's not working), that's preferable to constantly being jet-lagged due to switching between days and nights. Once she gives birth she can use up any PTO (and possibly short-term disability, apply for benefits if they're available!), then easily switch to days. I mean, if divorce is a reason to jump the queue to go to days, then surely being a new parent is a valid reason.

Switching to PRN was my suggestion too.  She asked to be put on the PRN waitlist.  But her manager told here that the days waitlist is shorter than the PRN waitlist. 
Again, im not advocating for her to give them an ultimatum. Just casually bring up that she isn't willing to work nights anymore and that she might need to explore other options.  Or even blame it on me and say "I'm not willing to work nights anymore.  We need to figure this out.  My husband is even suggesting that I quit, but I dont want to do that".  Make it seem like they are all on the same team.

[Metalcat]

Another spouse of an RN who works night shifts (ICU, CCU, transport team, ECMO team).

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. I loathe my spouse having to work any night shifts. He was lucky enough to start on days when he started at his hospital 10 years ago. When he advanced onto the transport team (his goal), he got slotted into rotating between nights/days. We were told that would be a "1 - 2 year" prospect before he go back to only days. It's now 2 years later, and he's likely won't get back fully onto days for another year or two.

What I've learned watching him is that hospital nursing is a team sport. He is now the most experienced RN in his respective departments - and that means he's often asked to be the flexible one. When they have a ton of travel or newer nurses in the CCU and a complicated heart transplant is coming down the pike - my husband gets called, regardless of whether he's already done "his nights" or "his slotted weekend shifts". Our mustachian choice to live 1 mile from the hospital also lends to this happening - if a critical shortage is happening, they know he's only 5 min away.

He has used his flexibility/availability as an advancement strategy - he's frequently recognized by upper management, and no one gives him a word of push back when we take off for extended vacations (travel hacking). He also regularly secures extra shift differentials, negotiating extra shift bonus pay, etc. So financially, its been a boon. Basically, he's made himself indispensable.

I get the pressure your wife feels to be flexible. It's hard to say "nope - I won't" when you know you're the most experienced and that patient care will suffer in your absence. My only advice is that if she's going to continue to be flexible in the interest of the team, she be compensated for that flexibility accordingly. That compensation could be extra $$$, but it could also be negotiating extra paid leave, or getting priority in taking off specific holidays (she probably doesn't want to work Xmas eve and Xmas morning on baby's first holiday, etc.).

Thanks for the perspective, it is hard for me to grasp the team concept.  I look at work as a business transaction and nurses look at it as a family.  The thing is there have been a number of things that have happened that show that management doesn't look at it as a family.  Such as two weeks after she started, they put a freeze on all PTO accrual, and eliminated 7% profit sharing bonus.  The aforementioned, skipping over her for someone else because they "needed" it more than her.  Not taking the last several months to train someone else, while she was doing them a favor by filling in and being charge nurse for them on her weekends.  And they do not give her any flexibility or added $$$.  Everything is "policy" until its "policy" is inconvenient to them.

Working as a healthcare provider is just a different world, and I recommend that you work on trying to understand that more, trying to understand her dilemma more instead of assuming that you know the right way to handle it.

She may desperately want to stop working nights, but she's also a healer, and refusing to work nights can mean abandoning the people she's sworn to care for. Nursing isn't a regular job, it's a brutal job with terrible compensation for the level of skill and responsibility. Most nurses continue to do it because of the enormous sense of responsibility for the patients, otherwise a lot of them would be better off getting a job at Costco.

I'm someone who has staffed, trained, and supervised healthcare workers, and they really are a different breed. There's a *very legitimate* reason that they treat their team like a family. It may be hard for someone who's never worked in that kind of lives-on-the-line environment, but it's very similar to soldiers on the front lines. It's really, REALLY hard to put their own needs first sometimes, even when they are legitimate, even when they are being taken for granted, even when their own health is at risk.

I'm not saying your wife shouldn't stand firm on what she's not willing to do; I'm saying that you can get all of the feedback in the world on how to stand up to her employers and none of it will matter until she feels comfortable not stepping up and doing what she feels is needed of her. The best way to support her is to make her feel understood. When people are experiencing conflict between two choices, the most powerful support they can receive is to feel like their dilemma is profoundly understood.

You've already said that you struggle with understanding her team mentality. Perhaps you should invest some time in trying to understand it, in understanding *her* better and what her motivations are. Not with the intention of convincing her to think differently either, but with the genuine effort of understanding the basis for her hesitation.

Don't approach this as "how do I convince my wife that she's handling her own priorities wrong?" approach it with the open minded compassion of "why is my wife struggling when her stated priorities are one thing but her behaviour is something contrary to that?" Give her the benefit of the doubt that there's something quite legitimate behind her internal conflict. It could be fear that FU money isn't enough, it could be a sense of duty to her patients, it could be lifelong indoctrination to not question authority, it could be that she loves her job and her team and would rather work nights than lose it.

There are a TON of possible combinations of factors influencing her struggle, and if you don't know what they are, then you are falling down on the job of being her main support.

I'm personally facing huge decisions right now that I'm really struggling with, and my husband keeps dragging me out for long walks so that I can verbal diarrhea my way through the process of deciding what to do. He asked a lot of questions, but held back from stating an opinion until he fully understood the complexities and nuances of the dilemma, which I myself didn't even understand until I talked through them with him. It's been weeks and only now is he starting to offer his opinion because it's taken that long to fully understand my feelings and worries.

So put in the time, get to know your wife better, and then you will be equipped to give her the most effective guidance.

Just my 2c as a retired senior healthcare professional, and the wife of someone who makes every difficult decision easier for me.

[wageslave23]

Another spouse of an RN who works night shifts (ICU, CCU, transport team, ECMO team).

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. I loathe my spouse having to work any night shifts. He was lucky enough to start on days when he started at his hospital 10 years ago. When he advanced onto the transport team (his goal), he got slotted into rotating between nights/days. We were told that would be a "1 - 2 year" prospect before he go back to only days. It's now 2 years later, and he's likely won't get back fully onto days for another year or two.

What I've learned watching him is that hospital nursing is a team sport. He is now the most experienced RN in his respective departments - and that means he's often asked to be the flexible one. When they have a ton of travel or newer nurses in the CCU and a complicated heart transplant is coming down the pike - my husband gets called, regardless of whether he's already done "his nights" or "his slotted weekend shifts". Our mustachian choice to live 1 mile from the hospital also lends to this happening - if a critical shortage is happening, they know he's only 5 min away.

He has used his flexibility/availability as an advancement strategy - he's frequently recognized by upper management, and no one gives him a word of push back when we take off for extended vacations (travel hacking). He also regularly secures extra shift differentials, negotiating extra shift bonus pay, etc. So financially, its been a boon. Basically, he's made himself indispensable.

I get the pressure your wife feels to be flexible. It's hard to say "nope - I won't" when you know you're the most experienced and that patient care will suffer in your absence. My only advice is that if she's going to continue to be flexible in the interest of the team, she be compensated for that flexibility accordingly. That compensation could be extra $$$, but it could also be negotiating extra paid leave, or getting priority in taking off specific holidays (she probably doesn't want to work Xmas eve and Xmas morning on baby's first holiday, etc.).

Thanks for the perspective, it is hard for me to grasp the team concept.  I look at work as a business transaction and nurses look at it as a family.  The thing is there have been a number of things that have happened that show that management doesn't look at it as a family.  Such as two weeks after she started, they put a freeze on all PTO accrual, and eliminated 7% profit sharing bonus.  The aforementioned, skipping over her for someone else because they "needed" it more than her.  Not taking the last several months to train someone else, while she was doing them a favor by filling in and being charge nurse for them on her weekends.  And they do not give her any flexibility or added $$$.  Everything is "policy" until its "policy" is inconvenient to them.

Working as a healthcare provider is just a different world, and I recommend that you work on trying to understand that more, trying to understand her dilemma more instead of assuming that you know the right way to handle it.

She may desperately want to stop working nights, but she's also a healer, and refusing to work nights can mean abandoning the people she's sworn to care for. Nursing isn't a regular job, it's a brutal job with terrible compensation for the level of skill and responsibility. Most nurses continue to do it because of the enormous sense of responsibility for the patients, otherwise a lot of them would be better off getting a job at Costco.

I'm someone who has staffed, trained, and supervised healthcare workers, and they really are a different breed. There's a *very legitimate* reason that they treat their team like a family. It may be hard for someone who's never worked in that kind of lives-on-the-line environment, but it's very similar to soldiers on the front lines. It's really, REALLY hard to put their own needs first sometimes, even when they are legitimate, even when they are being taken for granted, even when their own health is at risk.

I'm not saying your wife shouldn't stand firm on what she's not willing to do; I'm saying that you can get all of the feedback in the world on how to stand up to her employers and none of it will matter until she feels comfortable not stepping up and doing what she feels is needed of her. The best way to support her is to make her feel understood. When people are experiencing conflict between two choices, the most powerful support they can receive is to feel like their dilemma is profoundly understood.

You've already said that you struggle with understanding her team mentality. Perhaps you should invest some time in trying to understand it, in understanding *her* better and what her motivations are. Not with the intention of convincing her to think differently either, but with the genuine effort of understanding the basis for her hesitation.

Don't approach this as "how do I convince my wife that she's handling her own priorities wrong?" approach it with the open minded compassion of "why is my wife struggling when her stated priorities are one thing but her behaviour is something contrary to that?" Give her the benefit of the doubt that there's something quite legitimate behind her internal conflict. It could be fear that FU money isn't enough, it could be a sense of duty to her patients, it could be lifelong indoctrination to not question authority, it could be that she loves her job and her team and would rather work nights than lose it.

There are a TON of possible combinations of factors influencing her struggle, and if you don't know what they are, then you are falling down on the job of being her main support.

I'm personally facing huge decisions right now that I'm really struggling with, and my husband keeps dragging me out for long walks so that I can verbal diarrhea my way through the process of deciding what to do. He asked a lot of questions, but held back from stating an opinion until he fully understood the complexities and nuances of the dilemma, which I myself didn't even understand until I talked through them with him. It's been weeks and only now is he starting to offer his opinion because it's taken that long to fully understand my feelings and worries.

So put in the time, get to know your wife better, and then you will be equipped to give her the most effective guidance.

Just my 2c as a retired senior healthcare professional, and the wife of someone who makes every difficult decision easier for me.

Thank you for the very thoughtful and informative response.  I need to continue to make sure she feels supported by me.  I think she would say I do a good job of that for the most part.  In this case, the team thing isn't the issue because she has already told her boss that there are several people who are more than capable of doing her job.  She has even suggested that they get trained now (a couple of weeks ago).  So it isn't a sense of duty to her patients or coworkers in this instance.  She thinks its assanine that they "need" her on her weekend shift.  One of her coworkers has more experience than her, but doesn't want to be in charge.  I think its maybe a combination of not being assertive, and used to being taken advantage of by employers.  She tells me this regularly, that nurses just take sh*t because they've been programmed to.  When she said that the hospital was taking away benefits in the middle of the pandemic while at the same time asking nurses to work extra shifts and work in impossible conditions, she said that all of her coworkers were up in arms.  I said, I can't believe no one is going to the press about this.  This would be a publicity nightmare if the public saw that a huge healthcare system was cutting benefits to frontline workers.  She agreed but said nurses are just used to taking sh*t and keeping their heads down and doing their job.

[former player]

Can your wife schedule a leave day for every third weekend?  Two or three of those, with someone else having to step up to do the job, would demonstrate that she is no longer required to do it and she can go to her bosses and say "obviously you can now manage without me working nights at weekends because X has been doing it".

[Rhinodad]

I think the thought process should be that this is a "supply/demand" issue. I wouldn't even say it's using FU money.

Your wife continues to accept the offer the hospital puts forth. Her real only option is to ask to go to day shift, and if they say "no", then the alternative is to not accept the offer, and find another job. Every time she goes into work, then she is agreeing to their terms, each and every time. A part time good nurse is in super high demand around here. I wouldn't even bluff or threaten. If they say no, then I just would coach her to say "ok", and leave the office...and go straight to HR and put in her notice. I can't imagine she couldn't find a job within a day...whether thats in a hospital, nursing home, assisted living, homecare, or even nurse navigating.

 
That's mostly my take on it.  However there is some nuance to it, because hospital jobs pay the best.  It is the closest, cushiest hospital position in the area.  She would have to put in her time at nightshift at all of other good, local hospitals.  It sucks because she put in her time already and is very close to reaping the reward.  Thats why the "bluff" makes the most sense to me.  There's no risk because there is zero chance they let her go.  She also wouldn't say that she is going to quit, only that she will need to explore her options and that leaving might be one of them.  I just want the idea planted in their minds so that they realize she does have some leverage.

I never take threats very well. Again, as someone in senior management, I would never "buckle" to a threat of leaving...as that's not a relationship built on trust...either way. As an employee, if I went to my boss and the only way I could get what I feel my value is worth is by threatening, then what type of organization do I work for anyways, and why would I want to continue to work there? The employee can only use that tactic at MOST 1x. I'm sure mgmt already knows that it's the cushiest around, best paying, close to home, etc., and that if she leaves she would have to start over. I know I would already know that...so it's not like they don't have their own leverage in this situation. It sounds like she's already made her feelings known, and now she just either has to wait for them to act, or find a different job.

[wageslave23]

I think the thought process should be that this is a "supply/demand" issue. I wouldn't even say it's using FU money.

Your wife continues to accept the offer the hospital puts forth. Her real only option is to ask to go to day shift, and if they say "no", then the alternative is to not accept the offer, and find another job. Every time she goes into work, then she is agreeing to their terms, each and every time. A part time good nurse is in super high demand around here. I wouldn't even bluff or threaten. If they say no, then I just would coach her to say "ok", and leave the office...and go straight to HR and put in her notice. I can't imagine she couldn't find a job within a day...whether thats in a hospital, nursing home, assisted living, homecare, or even nurse navigating.

 
That's mostly my take on it.  However there is some nuance to it, because hospital jobs pay the best.  It is the closest, cushiest hospital position in the area.  She would have to put in her time at nightshift at all of other good, local hospitals.  It sucks because she put in her time already and is very close to reaping the reward.  Thats why the "bluff" makes the most sense to me.  There's no risk because there is zero chance they let her go.  She also wouldn't say that she is going to quit, only that she will need to explore her options and that leaving might be one of them.  I just want the idea planted in their minds so that they realize she does have some leverage.

I never take threats very well. Again, as someone in senior management, I would never "buckle" to a threat of leaving...as that's not a relationship built on trust...either way. As an employee, if I went to my boss and the only way I could get what I feel my value is worth is by threatening, then what type of organization do I work for anyways, and why would I want to continue to work there? The employee can only use that tactic at MOST 1x. I'm sure mgmt already knows that it's the cushiest around, best paying, close to home, etc., and that if she leaves she would have to start over. I know I would already know that...so it's not like they don't have their own leverage in this situation. It sounds like she's already made her feelings known, and now she just either has to wait for them to act, or find a different job.

I would agree in most situations.  But these are not "business people".  They don't think in the same terms.  Again, another woman was able to jump the line because she was going through a divorce and "needed the job".  I'm sure you wouldn't have done that either.. They are former nurses playing manager.  Nothing is planned out, common sense, logic, etc are not used.  Convenience, emotion, and relationships are the basis of most decisions.  They are plenty of people who have left, there are plenty of jobs out there. It just so happens that this particular job, if she is able to get to dayshift is best for her.  But that's a big if.  And again, she doesn't need the job at all. Whether she works or not adds maybe a year to my FIRE timeline.  And I'm not advocating threats, just to put the idea out there.  Because if I was management I would be thinking better to lose someone on one shift than to lose them altogether.   But I dont think they have gotten that far in their thinking.

[Duke03]

It's never fun to see your loved one being taken advantage of.  My wife who is super sweet was getting taken advantage of at her last job.  It's against her nature to be confrontational so for way to long she just took it.  Her boss would give her outstanding reviews, but then at raise time she'd get the bare minimum raise.  Her boss even told her it was because my wife was married to me and they knew I made good money so they wanted to give a bigger raise to my wife's co worker who was a single mom.  This was on top of the fact how they told my wife since they didn't have to pay for her health insurance since she was on my policy it afforded the office to hire a part time worker who you guess was also a single mom and needed a larger raise then my wife....  She put up with this nonsense longer than I would have and I told her from day one to just quit.  Best thing was that a week before my wife went on maternity leave her boss must have got a bad feeling because she called an emergency meeting and told my wife that she was required to come back to work after her maternity leave and that she would hate being a stay at home mom.  She even showed up at the hospital with a cheesy gift and told my wife they couldn't wait till she came back to work.  Of course 3 days before my wife was scheduled to go back to work she called her boss and informed her that because I make so much money she didn't need to work any more.  It was sweet sweet justice and I didn't care how much money we lost with her income.

Of course they had to hire someone to replace my wife and that woman needed insurance so they had to let the part time worker go.  Then within 3 months of my wife leaving everyone was being over worked and 3 more people quit.  I guess the stress finally got to the ex boss and she had some health issues and needed to retire.  The hire ups contacted my wife and asked if she'd be willing to come back with a promotion and raise, but she said no thanks.  Everyone knew they where taking advantage of her and it wasn't an issue until my wife decided to stand up for her self.  She hasn't worked in over 8 years and I love having my wife home with my kids.  Too many times business' will take advantage of their workers and play hard ball.  Then they want to play the victim when the employee tells them they will quit.  Screw that.

[dandarc]

@Duke03 - have you shared that in the Epic FU Money thread? Because that is awesome!

[wageslave23]

It's never fun to see your loved one being taken advantage of.  My wife who is super sweet was getting taken advantage of at her last job.  It's against her nature to be confrontational so for way to long she just took it.  Her boss would give her outstanding reviews, but then at raise time she'd get the bare minimum raise.  Her boss even told her it was because my wife was married to me and they knew I made good money so they wanted to give a bigger raise to my wife's co worker who was a single mom.  This was on top of the fact how they told my wife since they didn't have to pay for her health insurance since she was on my policy it afforded the office to hire a part time worker who you guess was also a single mom and needed a larger raise then my wife....  She put up with this nonsense longer than I would have and I told her from day one to just quit.  Best thing was that a week before my wife went on maternity leave her boss must have got a bad feeling because she called an emergency meeting and told my wife that she was required to come back to work after her maternity leave and that she would hate being a stay at home mom.  She even showed up at the hospital with a cheesy gift and told my wife they couldn't wait till she came back to work.  Of course 3 days before my wife was scheduled to go back to work she called her boss and informed her that because I make so much money she didn't need to work any more.  It was sweet sweet justice and I didn't care how much money we lost with her income.

Of course they had to hire someone to replace my wife and that woman needed insurance so they had to let the part time worker go.  Then within 3 months of my wife leaving everyone was being over worked and 3 more people quit.  I guess the stress finally got to the ex boss and she had some health issues and needed to retire.  The hire ups contacted my wife and asked if she'd be willing to come back with a promotion and raise, but she said no thanks.  Everyone knew they where taking advantage of her and it wasn't an issue until my wife decided to stand up for her self.  She hasn't worked in over 8 years and I love having my wife home with my kids.  Too many times business' will take advantage of their workers and play hard ball.  Then they want to play the victim when the employee tells them they will quit.  Screw that.

This is the situation to a T.  Thanks for sharing.  I told her yesterday when she was all upset about it, its going to be great when you've finally had enough and just put in your two week notice.  Good luck figuring out who's going to be "experienced" when you no longer work there period.  She laughed and thought that would be awesome too.  But like your situation, she just wants to be a stay at home mom, I dont care either way, just tired of her getting pushed around at work. I told her this morning,  why don't you just quit, focus on having kids for a few years and if you feel like going back to work at some point then get whatever job you feel like working.  Employers come and go, employees come and go.  In 5 years nobody is going to care either way.

[Metalcat]

I think the thought process should be that this is a "supply/demand" issue. I wouldn't even say it's using FU money.

Your wife continues to accept the offer the hospital puts forth. Her real only option is to ask to go to day shift, and if they say "no", then the alternative is to not accept the offer, and find another job. Every time she goes into work, then she is agreeing to their terms, each and every time. A part time good nurse is in super high demand around here. I wouldn't even bluff or threaten. If they say no, then I just would coach her to say "ok", and leave the office...and go straight to HR and put in her notice. I can't imagine she couldn't find a job within a day...whether thats in a hospital, nursing home, assisted living, homecare, or even nurse navigating.

 
That's mostly my take on it.  However there is some nuance to it, because hospital jobs pay the best.  It is the closest, cushiest hospital position in the area.  She would have to put in her time at nightshift at all of other good, local hospitals.  It sucks because she put in her time already and is very close to reaping the reward.  Thats why the "bluff" makes the most sense to me.  There's no risk because there is zero chance they let her go.  She also wouldn't say that she is going to quit, only that she will need to explore her options and that leaving might be one of them.  I just want the idea planted in their minds so that they realize she does have some leverage.

I never take threats very well. Again, as someone in senior management, I would never "buckle" to a threat of leaving...as that's not a relationship built on trust...either way. As an employee, if I went to my boss and the only way I could get what I feel my value is worth is by threatening, then what type of organization do I work for anyways, and why would I want to continue to work there? The employee can only use that tactic at MOST 1x. I'm sure mgmt already knows that it's the cushiest around, best paying, close to home, etc., and that if she leaves she would have to start over. I know I would already know that...so it's not like they don't have their own leverage in this situation. It sounds like she's already made her feelings known, and now she just either has to wait for them to act, or find a different job.

As a counter point as a former senior management person, I responded very well to people firmly establishing and communicating their boundaries with me. I also was *always* extremely firm with my own superiors as to what I was and wasn't willing to do.
Is that making threats? I've never interpreted it that way, but I've also never felt entitled to my staff sticking around in their roles either.

If they aren't happy with their role, then isn't it just common sense that they'll consider leaving?

As for them having leverage, of course they do, so I agree that one should never present something as a deal breaker if it isn't actually a deal breaker. That's just bluffing, and that's where you shoot yourself in the foot in these situations. If they think you can't leave, they won't take any complaint seriously. If they're the best gig in town, then they have to believe that you're willing to bail on the industry.

[Morning Glory]

Has your wife tried any non hospital nursing jobs? I've been in exactly her position and lost two pregnancies while working nights (probably a coincidence).

There is a lot more out there than just the hospital or the doctor's office. Here's a few that I can think of right now that are usually straight days and don't require an advanced degree. I liked dialysis. I have a friend who does bone marrow biopsies and another who manages people's coumadin.

School nursing
Insurance/regulatory reviews (position title varies by facility)
Discharge planning
Dialysis
OR/PACU for same day surgery
Plasmapheresis
Infusion therapy
Procedure nurse (LP, bone marrow biopsy, etc)
Procedural sedation
Phone triage
Informatics
Infection control
Diabetes educator
Anticoagulation nurse
Home care
Nursing home director
Research study coordinator
Wound/ostomy nurse

There's probably a ton more that I'm not thinking of right now

[wageslave23]

Has your wife tried any non hospital nursing jobs? I've been in exactly her position and lost two pregnancies while working nights (probably a coincidence).

There is a lot more out there than just the hospital or the doctor's office. Here's a few that I can think of right now that are usually straight days and don't require an advanced degree. I liked dialysis. I have a friend who does bone marrow biopsies and another who manages people's coumadin.

School nursing
Insurance/regulatory reviews (position title varies by facility)
Discharge planning
Dialysis
OR/PACU for same day surgery
Plasmapheresis
Infusion therapy
Procedure nurse (LP, bone marrow biopsy, etc)
Procedural sedation
Phone triage
Informatics
Infection control
Diabetes educator
Anticoagulation nurse
Home care
Nursing home director
Research study coordinator
Wound/ostomy nurse

There's probably a ton more that I'm not thinking of right now

I am so sorry for your loss!  Thank you for your suggestions.  So much more is at stake when dealing with nightshift because of the physical toll.  She has been a school nurse and would like to be again.  But its still ideal to make this work first.  But I will remind her of these options so she doesn't feel like she has to do whatever they say.  Thanks again.

[Zamboni]

Can your wife schedule a leave day for every third weekend?  Two or three of those, with someone else having to step up to do the job, would demonstrate that she is no longer required to do it and she can go to her bosses and say "obviously you can now manage without me working nights at weekends because X has been doing it".

I second doing something like this, if possible.

Alternating shifts between days & nights is much, much, much worse than just working nights. So much worse. Ugh.

She doesn't want to be disagreeable, so she should just try this on for size:
Her: "Working nights will no longer work for me."
Bosses: "We already told you we need you to work nights every third weekend."
Her: "That's just not going to work for me."
Bosses: "But it's only until we get someone trained. We need you to work nights every third weekend."
Her: "As I said, working nights will no longer work for me. Thank you for your time." Walk out smiling pleasantly.

Then let them schedule whatever they are going to schedule. Work the day shifts and then proceed to call in sick if they absolutely insist on scheduling the night shifts? That's what I would do, honestly, if I made a good faith effort and they kept ignoring what I was saying. They are morons if they think their "you have to work nights" will work. No, she clearly doesn't have to do anything. I wish I could get more people to understand this. Every time you go to work, or do something at work, it is a choice that you made. You can choose to do the opposite, and then see what happens.

By the way, people who are more disagreeable get paid more and get the working conditions they want more often . . . this is a verified fact. The other lady was more disagreeable to them than your wife, and that is 100% why she got the day shift sooner. It had nothing to do with anything else. But some women hesitate to be disagreeable because women are so punished in our culture for being disagreeable. It's common, and she's normal. Your wife absolutely needs to read the book Ask for It by Babcock and Laschever. It's all about helping women learn to negotiate in a relentlessly pleasant way and still get what they need.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

It might not be a popular opinion on this site, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to give your employer an ultimatum unless/until it's your last resort. There are many different ways to get your point across without point blank saying you will quit, especially if it's the first conversation. It tends to make managers defensive and you're less likely to get what you want. We like to put those epic FU stories on a pedestal, but you are much more likely to get what you want by framing things correctly and playing "nice". It's not clear from your post if she already has the day shift position, or if the night shift requirement is a condition of getting the position, but I think a simple I'm no longer interested in working night gives a clear message to management without having to say I'll quit.

I've given employers ultimatums multiple times, but they were never phrased as an ultimatum. A gentle request like "I don't think this pay rise meets market demand. I understand X and Y firm are paying $z" is a starting point, and the ultimatum can be delivered with "I would love to stay at this company, but I believe I am worth more, and recruiters have told me so. I wouldn't want to have to look elsewhere."

You can give employers very polite ultimatums - I call it "asking nicely". This works in all facets of life.

Also, I'm not sure about American employment laws but here in Australia, where employees have vast rights and vast quantities of sick leave, employers know that pissing off an employee means he or she is going to use up all that sick leave, then do a shitty job and get a vast amount of severance, before walking the next day to a competitor firm. I see it happen all the time. At least here in Australia, workers are in a much stronger bargaining position than employers.

[Gronnie]

My wife is an RN too and this whole "we're all a family" crap pisses me off too. The bean counters use it to play to nurses emotions and woefully underpay what they should.

Most of my family is in medicine (Nurses, Doctors, and Pharmacists all represented) and Nurses seem way underpaid and poorly treated.

[KarefulKactus15]

My wife is an RN too and this whole "we're all a family" crap pisses me off too. The bean counters use it to play to nurses emotions and woefully underpay what they should.

Most of my family is in medicine (Nurses, Doctors, and Pharmacists all represented) and Nurses seem way underpaid and poorly treated.

Maybe nurses are more so due to the personality / nurturer required.    But it seems all employers do this.    And the guilt is real.   Like when I left my job I knew they weren't going to backfill my position and that was going to royally F over the remaining 4 co-workers who would pick up my role. 
I did it anyway obviously.  I haven't talked to any co-workers since I left.    They are probably too busy with an extra 25% work for no more compensation.

[TomTX]

My wife is an RN too and this whole "we're all a family" crap pisses me off too. The bean counters use it to play to nurses emotions and woefully underpay what they should.

Most of my family is in medicine (Nurses, Doctors, and Pharmacists all represented) and Nurses seem way underpaid and poorly treated.

Maybe nurses are more so due to the personality / nurturer required.    But it seems all employers do this.    And the guilt is real.   Like when I left my job I knew they weren't going to backfill my position and that was going to royally F over the remaining 4 co-workers who would pick up my role. 
I did it anyway obviously.  I haven't talked to any co-workers since I left.    They are probably too busy with an extra 25% work for no more compensation.

Oh, the group I left in 2019 is definitely screwed. The "manager" is a poor one in general. He took nearly a year to hire a noob with little experience - and frankly, nobody I left behind was capable of being a tech lead. For a broader perspective, the "manager" allowed the group to wither ~50% during his tenure - by doing dumb stuff like not hiring in a reasonable timeframe and getting the FTE slot taken away. The capable people have generally left to avoid the burnout.

[Chris Pascale]

She should apply to another hospital, get an offer of 2 day shifts, and then bring it back to her employer and say "I'd love to stay, but can you match this?"

Sorry if this was already said. I didn't read all the replies.

[fuzzy math]

Can she switch to weekend days? Or just take the weekdays and ask to be PRN for weekend nights ? "I'd love to help you out on weekend nights but every 3 weeks is too often so can I just sign up?"  She wouldn't actually be obligated to do so most likely.

Another option is that she wouldn't have to give up her year + at the hospital if she goes to apply for one of the other units someone listed above. Say she got an offer in PACU (post surgery), her current manager would have to approve the transfer and at that point she might be able to get only the shifts she wants in her current unit as a negotiation. Either way she gets out or gets what she wants.

I work in a hospital and I'm here to tell you that COVID created a vacuum. There are openings everywhere. EVERYWHERE. NUrses quit their regular jobs to make 3x as much traveling, so units are all understaffed and hiring travelers everywhere. I bet there are travelers on her current desired weekday shift. There's absolutely no reason she can't get what she wants if she recognizes that the hospital is just desperate to staff shifts and they'd be happier keeping her on as a direct employee than hiring a traveler to replace her.

[Linea_Norway]

Next time she tells her boss that "no, I won't work night shifts", she could play the health card. "I am trying to get pregnant and I am so concerned about my health working night shifts". And what OP himself suggested, "My husband doesn't want me to work night shifts when pregnant". "This could break up my marriage".

Maybe it would feel a little better for her telling them a valid reason, instead of just saying no.

If she cannot say it like that in person, could she prepare a letter and hand it over to her boss? Or just read aloud from the letter or a prepared note?

[KarefulKactus15]

To the above....

I read in a book that people are substantially more likely to comply when a reason is given.   I can't remember what book.

But they found the reason doesn't need to by sensible, so illogical reasons had the same improvement as illogical.

I think one place they tested this what at a grocery store check out to skip ahead of someone.

[skp]

I am an "old" nurse, hoping to retire soon and here is my 2 cents.  Unfortunately, what your wife is dealing with is a very typical scenario  and my advise is you have to learn to work the system instead of fighting it.  She got the day shift job, it might not be 100%days  but she got her feet in the door.  She should just take it and shut up.  THEN harass them in a couple months to get off the weekend nights.  I also agree with someone upthread said to call off sick on the weekend nights (within reason- there are attendance policies) and then point out that obviously there is someone capable of being in charge besides her.
I think she should look long term. What does she want to do after she has the baby.  Prn has some downsides at least at my hospital.  No benefits.  Lower pay. Pick of the "bad" shifts.  First to get called off and first to float (I HATE floating)  I disagree with people saying nights are more stressful.  It depends on what you mean.  Yes, it's more stressful on your body.  But the workload is way lighter.   It's quiet, the patients generally sleep, our nurses make $10,000 a year more.  Most importantly= you don't have to deal with administration.  if you do it right- it works for a parent who doesn't want to do daycare.
I do want to add however that while squeeky wheels get greased, if they squeak too much- someone either wears ear plugs or throws the wheel in the trash.  I don't know how much of a complainer your wife is, but most of us don't like people who think they are "princesses".  Someone has to cover those shifts.