What's the point of a joint bank account these days?

[Imma]

We have a joint account and use credit cards for everything.
It makes life much more simple when the mortgage, all utilities and some other random stuff is due. I can't imagine having to wait to transfer money from one individual account to the other just to be able to pay bills.
I'd be curious to know how often married people with separate accounts have to do transfers and wait for funds to clear. It seems like unnecessary work.

It never occurred to me that transferring money between accounts was something to be avoided.

When I was married, I managed all the finances, and we had a mix of separate and joint accounts.  We kept our DDs going into our original accounts after we got married, just due to inertia - sometimes bills got paid from separate accounts, sometimes I transferred money, it was never onerous as a person who enjoys things like paying bills and tracking spending.

Before we were married but had shared expenses, we transferred money by writing checks to each other.  Imagine that!  Before mobile deposit days, when you had to actually go to your bank.  Never had any issues with that either.

Heck, now that I'm single I have a whole mix of accounts, and have to make transfers sometimes.  Its never been a problem at all.  I have buffer in my accounts, and transfer way before the money is needed, the 3 days or whatever it takes is never any concern, and I'm never "waiting" on the money.

I know the US banking system is outdated, but do you guys really still have to wait 3 days for a transfer in 2021?! In my country all transfers under 2 million € are processed instantly.  So if for some reason I want to transfer some money to my partner, it's in his account the next second.

[NotJen]

I know the US banking system is outdated, but do you guys really still have to wait 3 days for a transfer in 2021?! In my country all transfers under 2 million € are processed instantly.  So if for some reason I want to transfer some money to my partner, it's in his account the next second.

I honestly don't really know how long all the particular banks take.  Transfers within the same bank are instant.  One of my banks definitely takes 3 days for an external transfer.  I thinks others happen the next business day.  It's never been a problem for me.

Look, it mostly depends on how the relationship works. If you're essentially just long-term friends with benefits (which is fine) and you don't have kids or other dependents, then it probably makes sense to keep accounts separate, because your lives aren't really that tightly tied together.

If you have kids, elderly dependents, etc, and your lives are tightly tied together by shared responsibilities, then having separate accounts is at best potentially annoying, and at worst a legal catastrophe if one partner is incapacitated.

-W

Wow. So married couples who don't have children or other dependents "aren't really that tightly tied together." Maybe I'm just overly sensitive and you happened to strike a nerve, but I'm so tired of people thinking that ours isn't a "real" marriage since we've chosen not to have kids. We have plenty of shared responsibilities that don't involve small humans, and we certainly think of our relationship as much more than "long-term friends with benefits."

For what it's worth (as a childless by choice person), I did not read it that way.  I read it as accepting that each relationship is different and do what works for you, but if you have dependents, joint accounts might make more sense.

[sui generis]

Look, it mostly depends on how the relationship works. If you're essentially just long-term friends with benefits (which is fine) and you don't have kids or other dependents, then it probably makes sense to keep accounts separate, because your lives aren't really that tightly tied together.

If you have kids, elderly dependents, etc, and your lives are tightly tied together by shared responsibilities, then having separate accounts is at best potentially annoying, and at worst a legal catastrophe if one partner is incapacitated.

-W

Wow. So married couples who don't have children or other dependents "aren't really that tightly tied together." Maybe I'm just overly sensitive and you happened to strike a nerve, but I'm so tired of people thinking that ours isn't a "real" marriage since we've chosen not to have kids. We have plenty of shared responsibilities that don't involve small humans, and we certainly think of our relationship as much more than "long-term friends with benefits."

Yeah, agree. Even if I didn't read it that way, this was way over the top in saying that people whose lives are tightly tied together and have lots of shares responsibilities (without dependents) are going to have either an annoying or catastophic experience. As I said above, my experience has been seamless, and I'm a lawyer and well-prepared for downturns AND I've dealt with taking over an incapacitated parent's accounts before (e.g. not someone with whom I had a joint bank account) and even that wasn't a catastrophe. So that's just totally overblown.

[kite]

Having a joint account with someone (doesn't have to be a spouse) empowers that person to spend on your behalf. And it enables transfer of assets at death without delay. 
There's a gigantic mustachian blindspot around disability. But it happens in the real world.  One could become temporarily or permanently incapacitated in an instant.  A joint account with the person you trust most in the world can make a huge difference. Of course, it can backfire too if your loved one is an addict. 

[hooplady]

Having a joint account with someone (doesn't have to be a spouse) empowers that person to spend on your behalf. And it enables transfer of assets at death without delay. 
There's a gigantic mustachian blindspot around disability. But it happens in the real world.  One could become temporarily or permanently incapacitated in an instant.  A joint account with the person you trust most in the world can make a huge difference. Of course, it can backfire too if your loved one is an addict.

Yep, that's a primary reason why I have a joint account with a friend. I've seen stuff happen to others and I don't want to be in that situation. If I end up in the hospital hooked up to machines, but still not deceased, my pets still need to be fed, my utility bills still need to be paid, etc.

[MrGreen]

I guess I kinda ask the opposite question. What's the point of separate accounts? I can't think of any advantages unless my spouse had money issues. Maybe I'm just naive or something?

[waltworks]

Wow. So married couples who don't have children or other dependents "aren't really that tightly tied together." Maybe I'm just overly sensitive and you happened to strike a nerve, but I'm so tired of people thinking that ours isn't a "real" marriage since we've chosen not to have kids. We have plenty of shared responsibilities that don't involve small humans, and we certainly think of our relationship as much more than "long-term friends with benefits."

Not at all, you can be *personally* tied together, but if one of you dies, the only person affected is the other partner. If you have collective responsibilities to other people, you have more at stake for more people.

I was not making a pejorative statement, but the reality is that no matter how close/strong your relationship is emotionally, if you do not have other people depending on you (for whatever reason, it could be a child, elder, or disabled sibling, etc), you have less responsibilities and less need for shared assets that can be accessed by either partner at need. Having separate accounts as guardians is a potential landmine, just like not having a will.

-W

[sui generis]

I guess I kinda ask the opposite question. What's the point of separate accounts? I can't think of any advantages unless my spouse had money issues. Maybe I'm just naive or something?

It's just that the default is separate accounts. Unless your partner is coming from a totally disconnected (or simply oppressive to females) society, the two of you will each start out together with separate accounts and will continue as such absent new and different actions. Which naturally brings one to the question of whether those new actions are worthwhile before bothering to take them.

[Adventine]

I read @waltworks 's statement the same way as @NotJen. I did not take offense either and I am also going to be part of a childfree marriage. I also have aging dependents and confirm from experience that shared bank accounts make things easier for those who are left behind / take on the caregiver roles.

[MrGreen]

I guess I kinda ask the opposite question. What's the point of separate accounts? I can't think of any advantages unless my spouse had money issues. Maybe I'm just naive or something?

It's just that the default is separate accounts. Unless your partner is coming from a totally disconnected (or simply oppressive to females) society, the two of you will each start out together with separate accounts and will continue as such absent new and different actions. Which naturally brings one to the question of whether those new actions are worthwhile before bothering to take them.

I guess I come from an atypical situation. My spouse and I are high school sweethearts and we got married at 22 and 20. So we had barely started adult life. I guess having separate accounts just seems like a hassle from a financial planning standpoint. But I've never really known anything different.

[OtherJen]

If your system is working, there is no point in changing it.

This sums it up nicely. One size doesn’t fit all.

My husband and I have had joint accounts for our entire nearly 18-year marriage. It works really well for us. It’s been very helpful for our long-term financial planning and shorter-term budgeting, especially because I handle the household accounting and enjoy not juggling additional accounts. We discuss larger purchases, but neither of us is a spendthrift so I don’t need to know why he spent $80 at Home Depot or $40 at a restaurant (and usually he’ll mention in passing that it was his turn to treat his coworkers to a takeout lunch). I just download the credit card statements into Quicken and look for anything suspicious (e.g., unusually large transactions that we hadn’t discussed).

Preface: I'm not suggesting you change course or anything. Do what works.

With that said, nothing you listed can't be done just as easily with a joint savings/checking account (if not easier). You don't appear to have listed any benefits to the separate account. And from your description you seem to imply that a joint bank account is the same thing as a joint credit card account. I think when most people talk about joint accounts, they are using separate credit cards.

Unless there's some kind of long term planning things I'm misunderstanding.

Nope, no misunderstanding. We have a joint mortgage, joint bank accounts, a joint brokerage account, a joint HSA, and joint credit card accounts. It works for us and has for nearly two decades. That doesn't mean that something else will work better for someone else. We aren't those people and they aren't us.

Hence why I prefaced my post with "One size doesn't fit all."

[MrGreen]

A quick note on the credit cards. If you're playing the churning game it does not pay to have joint cards because they show up on both of your credit reports. For those brands that have created time limits for applying, like Chase, this will limit the churning you can do.

[Dicey]

Look, it mostly depends on how the relationship works. If you're essentially just long-term friends with benefits (which is fine) and you don't have kids or other dependents, then it probably makes sense to keep accounts separate, because your lives aren't really that tightly tied together.

If you have kids, elderly dependents, etc, and your lives are tightly tied together by shared responsibilities, then having separate accounts is at best potentially annoying, and at worst a legal catastrophe if one partner is incapacitated.

-W

Wow. So married couples who don't have children or other dependents "aren't really that tightly tied together." Maybe I'm just overly sensitive and you happened to strike a nerve, but I'm so tired of people thinking that ours isn't a "real" marriage since we've chosen not to have kids. We have plenty of shared responsibilities that don't involve small humans, and we certainly think of our relationship as much more than "long-term friends with benefits."

Oh, wow. I didn't get that from Walt's post at all...Sorry it seems to have struck a nerve.

[SpreadsheetMan]

My wife and I have a joint checking account that we use as a bucket to hold money for shared bills. That's pretty much all it is used for.

This. We have been married for 34 years and separate accounts plus a joint bill-paying account has worked fine all that time. No reason to change it.

[Imma]

Having a joint account with someone (doesn't have to be a spouse) empowers that person to spend on your behalf. And it enables transfer of assets at death without delay. 
There's a gigantic mustachian blindspot around disability. But it happens in the real world.  One could become temporarily or permanently incapacitated in an instant.  A joint account with the person you trust most in the world can make a huge difference. Of course, it can backfire too if your loved one is an addict.

I actually have a disability and I've had long hospital stays before. I still don't see the benefit of joint accounts as opposed to seperate accounts in that particular situation.

During my most recent long hospital stay we weren't living together yet, so we only had seperate accounts and didn't have access to eachother's accounts. That was a hassle, because he couldn't pay my rent for me. So when I came home we made sure to give eachother access to each account.

When we moved in together and shortly afterwards bought a house, we opened a joint account for the joint bills. But I don't see how that would be an advantage if I'd end up in hospital again. Mr Imma is an authorized user to my personal account and the only thing that would be required of him is check once a month to see if my income came in and whether all my automatic transfers (to joint account, investments, savings, personal bills like health insurance) went through. That's 5 minutes of work and it's not like he wouldn't have to check that if they were transferred out of the joint account instead of my personal account. If I required something, like, I do't know, hospital PJ's or anything, he'd be able to pay those out of my personal account.

For anything big you need a power of attorney or a court order anyway, joint or seperate accounts don't matter at all. Mr Imma has PoA in case I am uncapable of making decisions for myself but the vast majority of couples don't have PoA.

@Mr. Green my parents were in the same situation as you and your wife. When they finally divorced their finances were almost impossible to detangle. That's the situation we want to avoid. We don't want a divorce but are realistic about the statistical chance of that happening. Our finances are extremely easy to seperate if necessary. We met as adults with independent lives so that's a different situation than meeting in highschool as well. Also, as a woman who grew up in a house with an abuse man, I never ever want to end up in the situation where I don't have my own money that's exclusively mine and that I can use to start over if necessary. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid but it's a great relief to me that I have a "run away" fund ready to go.

[OtherJen]

Look, it mostly depends on how the relationship works. If you're essentially just long-term friends with benefits (which is fine) and you don't have kids or other dependents, then it probably makes sense to keep accounts separate, because your lives aren't really that tightly tied together.

If you have kids, elderly dependents, etc, and your lives are tightly tied together by shared responsibilities, then having separate accounts is at best potentially annoying, and at worst a legal catastrophe if one partner is incapacitated.

-W

Wow. So married couples who don't have children or other dependents "aren't really that tightly tied together." Maybe I'm just overly sensitive and you happened to strike a nerve, but I'm so tired of people thinking that ours isn't a "real" marriage since we've chosen not to have kids. We have plenty of shared responsibilities that don't involve small humans, and we certainly think of our relationship as much more than "long-term friends with benefits."

Oh, wow. I didn't get that from Walt's post at all...Sorry it seems to have struck a nerve.

I can see why it did. The phrasing can easily be read as including a childless marriage in the category of "long-term friends with benefits."

As someone in a long marriage with no children, I've had multiple people ask me what is the point of marriage without kids, when we're going to start our family, etc. This is our chosen family. We started that family very publicly and legally almost 18 years ago on our wedding day. We have responsibilities to each other and a shared life. We have in-laws that we have each come to consider as our own family, a shared niece and nephew, shared pets and friends, and joint property. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't end things simply by having a talk and deciding to stop sleeping together. Those legal ties and joint responsibilities would have to be broken.

[kpd905]

I don't really see the point in having joint accounts.  My main checking account is with US Bank.  By not having a joint account, my wife can open an account with them roughly once a year and get $300 every time.

[jrhampt]

We've been together a couple of decades and married for almost 15.  We have a joint mortgage and a couple of joint credit cards for bill-paying purposes and shared expenses.  Everything else is separate - bank accounts, investment accounts (each other is named as the beneficiary), other credit cards.  We don't transfer money into each other's bank accounts, but we do occasionally write each other checks.  The only time we've had an issue with this set up is when we got a check from selling the house and it was in both our names.  Since we don't have a joint account, we both had to be there in person at the bank in order for one of us to deposit it.

Like some other people are saying, maybe we'll change the system after retirement.  But it's worked fine for us for 22 years.

[MrGreen]

@Imma I suppose we're an oddity because of FIRE. Our one joint bank account is a checking account that we pay our expenses out of. Everything else is separate investment accounts, accrued from our working years with each other as a beneficiary. As the financially minded one, I made sure our investment accounts were funded fairly equally, knowing any divorce means it's 50/50 anyway. Not that I can imagine a scenario where we would get divorced but it would be one of the simplest ones there is since everything is already pretty much 50/50. I guess this is probably just easier for us because we've spent our entire lives together. Neither one of us came later in life with significantly more assets or what have you.

I can see the appeal in separate accounts for bank bonus churning but now that we're retired it's almost impossible to churn because we no longer have routine bank bonuses coming in and the account balance is always 10k or less because everything else is invested.

[kite]

Having a joint account with someone (doesn't have to be a spouse) empowers that person to spend on your behalf. And it enables transfer of assets at death without delay. 
There's a gigantic mustachian blindspot around disability. But it happens in the real world.  One could become temporarily or permanently incapacitated in an instant.  A joint account with the person you trust most in the world can make a huge difference. Of course, it can backfire too if your loved one is an addict.

Yep, that's a primary reason why I have a joint account with a friend. I've seen stuff happen to others and I don't want to be in that situation. If I end up in the hospital hooked up to machines, but still not deceased, my pets still need to be fed, my utility bills still need to be paid, etc.

Exactly.
One of my nephews was hospitalized for 60 days with Covid.  He spent about half that time on a ventilator, but even the time he wasn’t hooked up to machines, he still couldn’t have visitors.  Everything was already difficult for this wife and kids at that time, but being cut off from money would have made it even worse for them.  I think what people fail to realize is that you need the back-up in place before you need the back-up.
My nephew is home now and recovering, but he will have lasting issues from the virus.  Please wear masks. 

[E.T.]

I guess I don't see the point of separate accounts. We have a joint account and don't police each other's spending. It seems easier to just keep track of one account together rather than each person tracking a separate account. We've had a joint account since we got engaged, it just seemed so much simpler to combine everything.

[rothwem]

A quick note on the credit cards. If you're playing the churning game it does not pay to have joint cards because they show up on both of your credit reports. For those brands that have created time limits for applying, like Chase, this will limit the churning you can do.

I've never seen a joint credit card?  I was trying to get one a while ago, because Amex makes it really hard to see the total balance if you're just an authorized user.  She just logs into my account with the app, so we've found a workaround, but I get an fraud alert every time she logs in from her phone and its pretty aggravating. 

[afox]

Our system works well for us and has avoided issues that other friends have in their relationships:

We each have our own accounts that our pay gets deposited into.

We have one joint account and each put an equal amount of money into the joint account every month (full automated). We pay household bills and pay shared credit card via the shared account but do not share our savings, retirement, investment accounts, etc.

The days of one family member making no/little money and sharing half of the family wealth are long over and quite antiquated.

[NotJen]

A quick note on the credit cards. If you're playing the churning game it does not pay to have joint cards because they show up on both of your credit reports. For those brands that have created time limits for applying, like Chase, this will limit the churning you can do.

I've never seen a joint credit card?  I was trying to get one a while ago, because Amex makes it really hard to see the total balance if you're just an authorized user.  She just logs into my account with the app, so we've found a workaround, but I get an fraud alert every time she logs in from her phone and its pretty aggravating.

Really?  I had a joint CC with my XH back in the day.  I still have a joint card with my mom (my first one from when I went to college) - we keep trying to take her off, but they won't let us without closing the card, so I keep it open because it is by far the oldest in my credit history.

I guess I don't see the point of separate accounts. We have a joint account and don't police each other's spending. It seems easier to just keep track of one account together rather than each person tracking a separate account. We've had a joint account since we got engaged, it just seemed so much simpler to combine everything.

I'm sure you and your SO are good people, but I will never not have a separate account.  I have a friend whose XH took her off the joint account with no warning before the divorce was even filed.  It was the only banking account she had at all - she closed her original acct when they married and moved to my city.  Why the bank let him do it, I don't know, but he signed a paper saying it was not the bank's fault, and that let him do it.  She was left with *no access* to money that was legally hers.  I was livid for my friend - she found out when she tried to use her debit card on a post-paid thing, and it was declined and a phone call to the bank told her she was no longer on the account.  It was likely several days after he took her off the account.  It still makes me angry to think about it, and it's been 10 years!

[afox]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

[E.T.]

I guess I don't see the point of separate accounts. We have a joint account and don't police each other's spending. It seems easier to just keep track of one account together rather than each person tracking a separate account. We've had a joint account since we got engaged, it just seemed so much simpler to combine everything.

I'm sure you and your SO are good people, but I will never not have a separate account.  I have a friend whose XH took her off the joint account with no warning before the divorce was even filed.  It was the only banking account she had at all - she closed her original acct when they married and moved to my city.  Why the bank let him do it, I don't know, but he signed a paper saying it was not the bank's fault, and that let him do it.  She was left with *no access* to money that was legally hers.  I was livid for my friend - she found out when she tried to use her debit card on a post-paid thing, and it was declined and a phone call to the bank told her she was no longer on the account.  It was likely several days after he took her off the account.  It still makes me angry to think about it, and it's been 10 years!

That's terrible! I guess since we don't keep a high balance ever it didn't occur to me as a big risk. Our money gets regularly put into investments / mortgages but if you're someone who keeps a big emergency fund I can see the logic for each person having their own stash.

[E.T.]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

I don't think this is a fair take. I know @NotJen brought up a good case for considering what could happen if you keep a big balance in your bank account but that doesn't mean that separate accounts is the only "right" way to do things. Adults are adults as you say and some are fine with combining finances. Personally, I prefer the simplicity of having one account.

[afox]

Agree to disagree. I see no reason responsible significant others should share all finances/assets. From a practical matter it's not necessary and complicates financial matters. Furthermore, I have a lot of evidence that sharing all finances/assets can lead to marriage destroying issues.

Sharing of finances appears to be a holdover tradition from an era when one family member worked and one family member took care of children/cooking.

[NotJen]

I guess I don't see the point of separate accounts. We have a joint account and don't police each other's spending. It seems easier to just keep track of one account together rather than each person tracking a separate account. We've had a joint account since we got engaged, it just seemed so much simpler to combine everything.

I'm sure you and your SO are good people, but I will never not have a separate account.  I have a friend whose XH took her off the joint account with no warning before the divorce was even filed.  It was the only banking account she had at all - she closed her original acct when they married and moved to my city.  Why the bank let him do it, I don't know, but he signed a paper saying it was not the bank's fault, and that let him do it.  She was left with *no access* to money that was legally hers.  I was livid for my friend - she found out when she tried to use her debit card on a post-paid thing, and it was declined and a phone call to the bank told her she was no longer on the account.  It was likely several days after he took her off the account.  It still makes me angry to think about it, and it's been 10 years!

That's terrible! I guess since we don't keep a high balance ever it didn't occur to me as a big risk. Our money gets regularly put into investments / mortgages but if you're someone who keeps a big emergency fund I can see the logic for each person having their own stash.

It has nothing to do with a big balance - I'm not sure why the balance would make any difference?

[Much Fishing to Do]

Come to think of it our checking account is the one financial asset that is joint.  Taxable/Non-Taxable investment Accounts, credit cards etc are in each of our own names.  But in the end our monthly cashflow was just easier to handle and track from one pot.

[EvenSteven]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

[E.T.]

I guess I don't see the point of separate accounts. We have a joint account and don't police each other's spending. It seems easier to just keep track of one account together rather than each person tracking a separate account. We've had a joint account since we got engaged, it just seemed so much simpler to combine everything.

I'm sure you and your SO are good people, but I will never not have a separate account.  I have a friend whose XH took her off the joint account with no warning before the divorce was even filed.  It was the only banking account she had at all - she closed her original acct when they married and moved to my city.  Why the bank let him do it, I don't know, but he signed a paper saying it was not the bank's fault, and that let him do it.  She was left with *no access* to money that was legally hers.  I was livid for my friend - she found out when she tried to use her debit card on a post-paid thing, and it was declined and a phone call to the bank told her she was no longer on the account.  It was likely several days after he took her off the account.  It still makes me angry to think about it, and it's been 10 years!

That's terrible! I guess since we don't keep a high balance ever it didn't occur to me as a big risk. Our money gets regularly put into investments / mortgages but if you're someone who keeps a big emergency fund I can see the logic for each person having their own stash.

It has nothing to do with a big balance - I'm not sure why the balance would make any difference?

From the story you shared I assumed the issue you saw with a joint bank account was that a divorcing spouse could drain the money from the account. So I'd assume that if you keep a small balance in the joint account, the impact of that risk would be less. 

[afox]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

THats pretty rare these days and even kids in college have a lot of savings these days which was given to them by their parents in the form of a 529 or something. Otherwise they wouldnt be able to afford college. Seems like a one off where two people get married that have nothing, hope people in that situation arent planning on having kids!

[afox]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

THats pretty rare these days and even kids in college have a lot of savings these days which was given to them by their parents in the form of a 529 or something. Otherwise they wouldnt be able to afford college. Seems like a one off where two people get married that have nothing, hope people in that situation arent planning on having kids!

You think most college kids have huge piles of money their parents gave them, and that if they didn't have whopping 529 plans people wouldn't be going to college?

And you think that it's rare for two broke people to get married?

Ummmm.....

That's correct, generally only kids with wealthy parents go to college today. There are exceptions of course, but the vast majority of kids in college today are paying lots of money with vast savings from family.

Broke people get married but not financially savvy people that are interested in FIRE.

[charis]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

THats pretty rare these days and even kids in college have a lot of savings these days which was given to them by their parents in the form of a 529 or something. Otherwise they wouldnt be able to afford college. Seems like a one off where two people get married that have nothing, hope people in that situation arent planning on having kids!

Some bizarre assumptions in your posts, afox. Seems like you run in an affluent circle.

We also got married in grad school, with very little $, a negative NW, and student loans.  Shockingly, we did go on to have kids, currently worth 700k and save 60% of income (not paycheck to paycheck).  One of us makes a lot less than the other, and it's not the wife, if that's the implication of your 50s/gender comments. 

Also, in my state, all our property and assets are marital, regardless of whose name it's in, because it was acquired during the marriage.

Lots of students don't have 529 accounts. I afforded it with loans, a part time job, and my parents made tuition payments (and took a parent plus loan), as do many.

[jrhampt]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

THats pretty rare these days and even kids in college have a lot of savings these days which was given to them by their parents in the form of a 529 or something. Otherwise they wouldnt be able to afford college. Seems like a one off where two people get married that have nothing, hope people in that situation arent planning on having kids!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!!! 

No.

[Freedom2016]

Broke people get married but not financially savvy people that are interested in FIRE.

You make... interesting... blanket judgments.

[Imma]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

Although I don't agree with @afox's statement I can totally imagine what a person with a 0 net worth could write in their prenup. A pre-nup is not just about the assets you have at the point of signing it, it's about agreeing how to handle certain situations in the future. Like, how are you going to deal with future inheritances? Are those joint or personal property? What if either of you starts their own business? If that business fails, any joint assets could be accessed by creditors. So it could be smart to keep some assets personal instead of joint. Those are the kind of scenarios that we put in writing.

@kite I totally agree we all need backup plans, but I don't see why that should necessarily be a joint bank account. What's wrong with a regular authorized user? I hope your relative is doing better now. I have chronic health issues so I am definitely aware of the possibility that I may not be able to handle my own money one day, and I've signed the necessary paperwork to prevent it (authorized user + PoA).

@afox my partner and I personally agree with your statement that we're adults and we're responsible for our own money (not the other statements, we were both totally broke when we met, we certainly didn't have family money, and we're doing very well now) It's how we feel about our own personal situation, but this is not a 'one size fit all' thing. Other people make different life choices and in certain circumstances, combining finances can be useful.

However, as @NotJen example has shown, I do believe people should have some money / cards in their name only so that you do not end up without any kind of access to money. I'm not saying that we should not trust our partners (if there's no trust anymore, it's time to divorce) but I do feel like we should be sceptical of anyone who feels like you shouldn't have money in your own name. I want what's best for my partner so I totally don't mind that he has a bank account and a retirement account in his name only. Yes, that makes it theoretically slightly easier for him to leave me, but if we're at the point where he wants to leave, then I don't want him to stay around for financial reasons.

[afox]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

THats pretty rare these days and even kids in college have a lot of savings these days which was given to them by their parents in the form of a 529 or something. Otherwise they wouldnt be able to afford college. Seems like a one off where two people get married that have nothing, hope people in that situation arent planning on having kids!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!!! 

No.

https://educationdata.org/how-do-people-pay-for-college

[afox]

I think the disconnect is that a lot of you are writing with your experiences paying for college/getting married which it sounds like were experiences from decades ago. Im writing about the current situation for someone going to college now and getting married now and how a married family handles finances now.

College is more expensive now and the money has to come from somewhere. Today the vast majority of people dont get married as early and most dont get married at all until they have a practical reason to do so like wanting to start a family. I paid $850 per semester for undergrad from 1995-2000, the same school is now $12,200 per semester.

[charis]

You are confusing parental assistance with student savings accounts.

We definitely didn't go to college or get married decades ago, and we graduated with combined 100k+ debt (undergrad + grad for two people, so that isn't even too bad) in our late 20s/30s. You sound like the out of touch one on this thread.

[NotJen]

I guess I don't see the point of separate accounts. We have a joint account and don't police each other's spending. It seems easier to just keep track of one account together rather than each person tracking a separate account. We've had a joint account since we got engaged, it just seemed so much simpler to combine everything.

I'm sure you and your SO are good people, but I will never not have a separate account.  I have a friend whose XH took her off the joint account with no warning before the divorce was even filed.  It was the only banking account she had at all - she closed her original acct when they married and moved to my city.  Why the bank let him do it, I don't know, but he signed a paper saying it was not the bank's fault, and that let him do it.  She was left with *no access* to money that was legally hers.  I was livid for my friend - she found out when she tried to use her debit card on a post-paid thing, and it was declined and a phone call to the bank told her she was no longer on the account.  It was likely several days after he took her off the account.  It still makes me angry to think about it, and it's been 10 years!

That's terrible! I guess since we don't keep a high balance ever it didn't occur to me as a big risk. Our money gets regularly put into investments / mortgages but if you're someone who keeps a big emergency fund I can see the logic for each person having their own stash.

It has nothing to do with a big balance - I'm not sure why the balance would make any difference?

From the story you shared I assumed the issue you saw with a joint bank account was that a divorcing spouse could drain the money from the account. So I'd assume that if you keep a small balance in the joint account, the impact of that risk would be less.

No, the issue is that since she had no other access to money, she had no money.  Period.  He didn't drain an account, he locked her out of it.  It doesn't matter if the bank account had $100 or $100,000.  She couldn't fill her gas tank up with gas, couldn't buy groceries, couldn't pay for the service she had just received - everything was tied to the account that was closed without her permission.

Sure, when I was married, we kept our EF in a large joint savings account, and one of us could have drained it to try to screw over the other.  While it would have taken time to sort out (eventually lawyers could get the money back to the correct parties), we wouldn't have been immediately affected because we each had separate accounts with some amount of money flowing through them, plus credit cards, etc.  Luckily my XH turned out to be less of an asshat than hers.

[E.T.]

...
However, as @NotJen example has shown, I do believe people should have some money / cards in their name only so that you do not end up without any kind of access to money. I'm not saying that we should not trust our partners (if there's no trust anymore, it's time to divorce) but I do feel like we should be sceptical of anyone who feels like you shouldn't have money in your own name. I want what's best for my partner so I totally don't mind that he has a bank account and a retirement account in his name only. Yes, that makes it theoretically slightly easier for him to leave me, but if we're at the point where he wants to leave, then I don't want him to stay around for financial reasons.

This explanation makes sense. @NotJen I think my disconnect with what you were saying is that my spouse and I have separate investment / retirement accounts but our bank account is joint. In my case if the joint account balance stays low, I don't need to worry so much about my money getting hijacked in the unlikely case of a messy divorce since we each have our own pots of money in investments. The thread questioned the need for joint bank accounts, and I think for some people a joint account makes sense because it's convenient to have all the monthly cashflow going through one main account. Everyone's preferences are different but I don't think there's one right way to do things.

I think the disconnect is that a lot of you are writing with your experiences paying for college/getting married which it sounds like were experiences from decades ago. Im writing about the current situation for someone going to college now and getting married now and how a married family handles finances now.

College is more expensive now and the money has to come from somewhere. Today the vast majority of people dont get married as early and most dont get married at all until they have a practical reason to do so like wanting to start a family. I paid $850 per semester for undergrad from 1995-2000, the same school is now $12,200 per semester.

I'm 32, I'm speaking from fairly recent experience. I don't agree with your judgements on what you think a financially responsible person does. I didn't have parental help when I went to college and I married right after graduating with student loan debt. That doesn't negate my success or my ability to be financially responsible. Maybe you need to reevaluate your positon.

[afox]

You are confusing parental assistance with student savings accounts.

We definitely didn't go to college or get married decades ago, and we graduated with combined 100k+ debt (undergrad + grad for two people, so that isn't even too bad) in our late 20s/30s. You sound like the out of touch one on this thread.

Ah, my bad. I think of college savings accounts (contributions from parents) and "parent contributions" ie writing a check when tuition is due as the same thing from an economics perspective. Financially savvy parents might determine that its best to save for their kids educations in 529's or roth IRAs, the funding source is the same (parents income/savings). My point was that most kids going college today are going to have some savings (from their parents) that they use to pay for college.

[NotJen]

However, as @NotJen example has shown, I do believe people should have some money / cards in their name only so that you do not end up without any kind of access to money. I'm not saying that we should not trust our partners (if there's no trust anymore, it's time to divorce) but I do feel like we should be sceptical of anyone who feels like you shouldn't have money in your own name. I want what's best for my partner so I totally don't mind that he has a bank account and a retirement account in his name only. Yes, that makes it theoretically slightly easier for him to leave me, but if we're at the point where he wants to leave, then I don't want him to stay around for financial reasons.

When I was married and thought I might have kids, my XH and I would argue about who would get to stay home with the kids (or who would have to stay home with the kids?  We wanted some magical 50/50 half-time solution).  I'd vowed to keep an account in the SAHP's name only with a large amount of money (at least $10k) so that they could leave if they ever wanted to and not feel trapped due to money. (In addition to retirement accounts, though this was before we had anything in the way of investments.)

[E.T.]

I guess I don't see the point of separate accounts. We have a joint account and don't police each other's spending. It seems easier to just keep track of one account together rather than each person tracking a separate account. We've had a joint account since we got engaged, it just seemed so much simpler to combine everything.

I'm sure you and your SO are good people, but I will never not have a separate account.  I have a friend whose XH took her off the joint account with no warning before the divorce was even filed.  It was the only banking account she had at all - she closed her original acct when they married and moved to my city.  Why the bank let him do it, I don't know, but he signed a paper saying it was not the bank's fault, and that let him do it.  She was left with *no access* to money that was legally hers.  I was livid for my friend - she found out when she tried to use her debit card on a post-paid thing, and it was declined and a phone call to the bank told her she was no longer on the account.  It was likely several days after he took her off the account.  It still makes me angry to think about it, and it's been 10 years!

That's terrible! I guess since we don't keep a high balance ever it didn't occur to me as a big risk. Our money gets regularly put into investments / mortgages but if you're someone who keeps a big emergency fund I can see the logic for each person having their own stash.

It has nothing to do with a big balance - I'm not sure why the balance would make any difference?

From the story you shared I assumed the issue you saw with a joint bank account was that a divorcing spouse could drain the money from the account. So I'd assume that if you keep a small balance in the joint account, the impact of that risk would be less.

No, the issue is that since she had no other access to money, she had no money.  Period.  He didn't drain an account, he locked her out of it.  It doesn't matter if the bank account had $100 or $100,000.  She couldn't fill her gas tank up with gas, couldn't buy groceries, couldn't pay for the service she had just received - everything was tied to the account that was closed without her permission.

Sure, when I was married, we kept our EF in a large joint savings account, and one of us could have drained it to try to screw over the other.  While it would have taken time to sort out (eventually lawyers could get the money back to the correct parties), we wouldn't have been immediately affected because we each had separate accounts with some amount of money flowing through them, plus credit cards, etc.  Luckily my XH turned out to be less of an asshat than hers.

We posted around the same time, I understand what you're getting at now. I agree it's good to have money accessible for each person individually, I just have that via investment accounts rather than separate bank accounts.

[afox]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

THats pretty rare these days and even kids in college have a lot of savings these days which was given to them by their parents in the form of a 529 or something. Otherwise they wouldnt be able to afford college. Seems like a one off where two people get married that have nothing, hope people in that situation arent planning on having kids!

You think most college kids have huge piles of money their parents gave them, and that if they didn't have whopping 529 plans people wouldn't be going to college?

And you think that it's rare for two broke people to get married?

Ummmm.....

That's correct, generally only kids with wealthy parents go to college today. There are exceptions of course, but the vast majority of kids in college today are paying lots of money with vast savings from family.

I work in higher ed.  I can assure you that this is completely totally and utterly wrong.

Well, im reading about this and it does appear that somewhere around 60% of tuition comes from parents savings. Also, reading that low income kids go to college at much lower rates than higher income kids and much more striking is that the graduation rates (completion) are much much higher for kids from higher incomes. I was probably wrong when I wrote "generally only kids with wealthy parents go to college today" what I should have written but didnt is that "generally only kids with wealthy parents finish college".

As a parent of 2 kids my take away is the best chance for my kids success is for me to be frugal and save wisely for my kids education.

[EvenSteven]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

THats pretty rare these days and even kids in college have a lot of savings these days which was given to them by their parents in the form of a 529 or something. Otherwise they wouldnt be able to afford college. Seems like a one off where two people get married that have nothing, hope people in that situation arent planning on having kids!

I'm assuming you didn't mean it as written, but are you aware that you have just told me that you hope I don't have kids because I wasn't wealthy coming out of grad school?

[afox]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

THats pretty rare these days and even kids in college have a lot of savings these days which was given to them by their parents in the form of a 529 or something. Otherwise they wouldnt be able to afford college. Seems like a one off where two people get married that have nothing, hope people in that situation arent planning on having kids!

I'm assuming you didn't mean it as written, but are you aware that you have just told me that you hope I don't have kids because I wasn't wealthy coming out of grad school?

What I meant to say is that I hope people wait until they have some savings/financial cushion before having kids. I think you probably got that initially but this game is more fun!

[EvenSteven]

IMO, anyone with just a joint account is not financially savvy. Its like getting married without a prenup. These are behaviors that people that live paycheck to paycheck engage in. Financially responsible adults with savings have prenups and their own money. It might have been different in 1950 or in 1965 but for the last couple of decades adults are adults regardless of their gender.

My wife and I got married in grad school when both of our net worth's were pretty close to zero. We have no prenup. What kind of things should have put in a prenup to protect either party?

THats pretty rare these days and even kids in college have a lot of savings these days which was given to them by their parents in the form of a 529 or something. Otherwise they wouldnt be able to afford college. Seems like a one off where two people get married that have nothing, hope people in that situation arent planning on having kids!

I'm assuming you didn't mean it as written, but are you aware that you have just told me that you hope I don't have kids because I wasn't wealthy coming out of grad school?

What I meant to say is that I hope people wait until they have some savings/financial cushion before having kids. I think you probably got that initially but this game is more fun!

I figured that is what you meant, but I don’t think it’s a game or somehow unfair to you to point out unclear and potentially inflamitory writing.