What's the difference between driven to FIRE and driven to wealth?

[DeskJockey2028]

I've met both sorts of people on this journey. The person who's making a decent income and striving to get their savings rate from 67% to 68% this month. Also the person who's making a very decent living and striving to make more and acquire the next promotion. Both are driven, both are good at what they do and both end up in very different places.

What do you think separates these two individuals? Is it a tendency to go after power rather than self-sufficiency? Is it a talent for working within the system rather than trying to leave it all together? Have you ever seen anyone flip from either driven to succeed at work by getting more money and more power to FIRE or the other way around?

[Maenad]

I think there's some extrinsic versus intrinsic motivation that plays a part in this. Wealth and power confer status, and for some folks one of the benefits of having wealth is that people know you do and react to you based on that.

I agree that there's also a contrast between the desire to "win the game" and the desire to step outside it.

[Laura33]

I would add in a third category: people who are driven to high savings rates so that they can accumulate a big 'stache, but who never actually FIRE.  A/k/a my mom.

I think some is just psychological -- for me, I don't ever want to be poor again, so I have a higher need for security than most folks here, meaning I am not going to pull the plug nearly as quickly.  I also don't have that hatred of "working for the man" that seems to drive many hear to seek FIRE above all else.

And some is situational.  I mean, I have a pretty cushy job that engages my brain in good ways (mostly), that sucks only at infrequent intervals, and pays me far more than I am worth.  I also have no clear sense of what I want to do post-FIRE.  So, hey, might as well keep doing what I'm doing.  If my job sucked, or I had a serious hobby that my work interfered with, it would be a completely different story.

[prognastat]

I'd say striving for high savings and striving for high income can be done with the same goal in mind, but striving for high income. Both are valuable tools for FIREing and if they are used for that goal then there is no difference.

However many that strive for high income strive for this to be able to live the "rich" life. There is a big difference between someone who wants to either decrease their spending or increase their income(which if you don't increase your spending effectively also increases your savings rate so in the end whether it is done by reducing spending or increasing income both can be considered increasing your savings rate) and increasing your income so you can have a bigger house than you need, a nicer car than you need and more stuff than you need.

As far as what Laura touched on the reasons for wanting FIRE can vary quite a lot though. Some want security of not fearing losing their job, some just want to stop working and relax, some have many things they would like to do and try without the risk of going financially bankrupt over it and this is also often linked to not wanting to "work for the man" so it is often a wish for independence(this is probably my main drive) and some want it to be able to spend more time with their family/kids. There are probably plenty of other reasons too.

The main difference really comes down to if you prioritize feeling/looking rich or anything else really.

[Laura33]

You know, I keep thinking about this, and I just keep coming back to: people are different.

My DH is spendy as hell.  He also gets more from his job than he could get from retirement: he got a Ph.D in EE because he's a total geek and loves that stuff, and now he has a job developing advanced tech.  He is a pig in slop.  Even when he gets really, really frustrated, and I remind him he can quit any time, he is not ready to give up the tech.  And it's not something he could ever replicate at home, unless we had a spare billion or two lying around -- once he steps away, he is done.  So from his perspective: he is working on stuff he enjoys; we have enough saved to be totally fine if the shit hits the fan; he makes plenty of money and has no desire to quit.  So why not use some of those extra funds to live it up in the meantime?

As for me, I'm here because I am far more naturally frugal than DH but have gotten lazy and let DH get too spendy on stuff that doesn't matter (e.g., Panera or pizza because "I don't *feel* like cooking).  And I like the reinforcement I get here that frugal is good, that saving comes first, that you don't need fancy stuff to be happy.  BUT: 20+ years with DH has taught me that I also like certain nice things and am willing to pay for them.  E.g., when we moved back to my old neighborhood, I took great pleasure and joy in buying a house that, when I was growing up poor, I saw as one of the "big" houses,* and fixing it up.  It has been 13 years, and I love my street, I love my house, every time I spot it while driving home it makes me smile.  It is a constant reminder of how far I have come from the food stamps; knowing that I can afford this and am safe and secure here and won't ever have to move again if I don't want to gives me a degree of psychological contentment that I have never had.  It's sort of like a 3D gratitude journal, if that makes sense. 

[*"Big" as seen through a kid's eyes; it's not actually huge or fancy, just 100+-yr-old American Foursquare with sort of classic lines and old-house character -- and 1/3 cheaper than the new homes in the next town over] 

I also have a totally unnecessary convertible that DH talked me into; it was supposed to be "his" car, and now I drive it about 364 days a year -- we're talking top down whenever it is above 40 and not actively raining.  I love the feel of driving, I love a stick, and feeling the sun and the wind is such an added boost.  It makes me happy literally every time I drive it.   

One of the recurring themes I read here frequently is that spending on more than you "need" = bad -- it's all driven by a mad lust for power, or ego, or a desire to impress other people.  Clearly, some people behave that way and are driven by those things.  But as for me, well, honestly, I couldn't give a shit about what people think -- I'm an introvert, people outside my immediate circle are sort of only marginally relevant to my life anyway.  :-)  If anything, the pressure is the other way around:  I bought my stupid car *knowing* my mom would disapprove -- and her opinion I do value.  I would much rather fly under the radar, and it annoys me that I own some things that attract attention.  [I am looking at a different possible stupid car, and I like the fact that the badging is black, because it doesn't shout "I am awesome and can kick your ass" -- it just sits there quietly, and *then* kicks ass. :-)]

So I guess the tl;dr is that DH and I spend money on certain things because we like them and they make us happy.  We could FIRE, but without either a horrible work situation or a compelling desire to do something different, why bother?  And if any of that changes, we'll adjust as needed. 

[sisto]

I would argue you could be both and would say that I fall into that category. I'm constantly looking at ways to optimize and at the same time I'm working my @$$ off in order to attain the next level which in my mind will solidify my FIRE plans. Security is a big thing for me too. We are a single income family and have been for 25 years. We both also grew up extremely poor so we are overly cautious and don't want any chance of running out of money, thankfully Social Security should provide some buffer. OTOH if you are saying the wealth driven person is doing it for prestige, that is not the case for me.

[Tyson]

Some people want an elevated lifestyle and realize that they have to 'out earn' their spending if they want real wealth.  Others (MMMers) realize that the elevated lifestyle is not necessary and that real wealth can be accumulated with less income. 

[cacaoheart]

To me, if I were to go beyond what I need to FIRE and instead aim for wealth, it would be to make it so that no future generation of my family would NEED to work, but could instead focus on whatever they're drawn to without concern for what it pays. I would mostly do this to the degree that I'm doing work that I can appreciate, as others have said. As it is, right now I can see myself working full time another ~5 years and then part time so that my wife and I will have the option to travel more and homeschool our daughter.

[human]

I'm driven to get a higher salary not for wealth or power but to FIRE earlier. I came to the game late and if I'd like to FIRE before 50 I need to make more money. Granted I could spend less as well but I went from less than 70k to over 100k and this is really helping. Higher salary will also increase a deferred pension. More stress now I admit, we'll see if the trade off is worth it.

[Tyson]

I'm driven to get a higher salary not for wealth or power but to FIRE earlier. I came to the game late and if I'd like to FIRE before 50 I need to make more money. Granted I could spend less as well but I went from less than 70k to over 100k and this is really helping. Higher salary will also increase a deferred pension. More stress now I admit, we'll see if the trade off is worth it.

$30k pay increase, nice man!  Yeah, extra income radically accelerates wealth accumulation, assuming you keep spending the same.

[PDXTabs]

I'm driven to get a higher salary not for wealth or power but to FIRE earlier. I came to the game late and if I'd like to FIRE before 50 I need to make more money. Granted I could spend less as well but I went from less than 70k to over 100k and this is really helping. Higher salary will also increase a deferred pension. More stress now I admit, we'll see if the trade off is worth it.

+1

Seven years ago my base salary was $57K, now it is $125K. In 13 months it went from $95K to $125K. I certainly won't need this sort of money once my kids are out of college, but it also means that I can FIRE earlier all things being equal. I think that is one of the things that they talk about in Your Money or Your Life.

[Classical_Liberal]

Trying to live off of less is a fun challenge for me, I thoroughly enjoy it.  I also enjoy the thought of my stache as a secret weapon no causal observer could guess that I have.  Driving a BMW and living in a McMansion, people assume you are well off.  They way I live, no one makes that assumption.

The income to spend ratio gives me a ton of latitude with work too.  I certainly would not enjoy my job nearly as much if I worried about making every "mandatory" off hours meeting/training session or if I cared about every new performance improvement scheme. I'm good at what I do and get paid well for it, but I know I could just as well work at near minimum wage and get by without tapping savings.  Sleep is only lost if I fail myself, pleasing the company is rarely considered.

[Gone_Hiking]

I'm driven to get a higher salary not for wealth or power but to FIRE earlier. I came to the game late and if I'd like to FIRE before 50 I need to make more money. Granted I could spend less as well but I went from less than 70k to over 100k and this is really helping. Higher salary will also increase a deferred pension. More stress now I admit, we'll see if the trade off is worth it.

+1

Seven years ago my base salary was $57K, now it is $125K. In 13 months it went from $95K to $125K. I certainly won't need this sort of money once my kids are out of college, but it also means that I can FIRE earlier all things being equal. I think that is one of the things that they talk about in Your Money or Your Life.

My first job - 35K.  Thirteen years later - 85K.  Three years after that - 115K.  And then, a year and half later... a layoff.  Back to 70K.   Power was not and is not a motivator for me.  Before the layoff experience, I just didn't want to be poor - just like Laura explained.  After the layoff experience, I don't want myself or DH to be forced to look for another job in case of "right-sizing", and my tolerance for corporate BS is almost gone.   I will ask for a promotion and raise within a year so that I can save more and be BS-free sooner.

[Laura33]

After the layoff experience, I don't want myself or DH to be forced to look for another job in case of "right-sizing", and my tolerance for corporate BS is almost gone.   

This too!  Having followed the first tech crash around the country ISO jobs for DH, I really do not have words strong enough to describe how happy it makes me to know that we never have to do that again if we don't want to.  And corporate BS can just sort of float over my head, because what are they going to do, fire me?  OK!  (As my DH has told his boss, "I probably need a job, but I don't need this job.")  Compared to the "us" of 15 years ago, the stress levels are way down, and ability to enjoy life is way up.

[sisca]

The need for safety would probably be equal for both the wealth builder and the FIRE seeker.

Accumulating wealth, rather than spending it, shows that it is not only a question of earning money to spend money. I was frugal and into building wealth long before I ever thought of FIRE! The thought of FIRE never occured to me until a few years ago.

But once your wealth hits a certain level, as compared to your spending, you are free! Free to worry about other things, free to stop working, free to do what ever you want. That was always a goal.

[Khan]

Free was always the goal. That, and a sustainable, rising quality of life. You can't live off 100% of your income, because then you will have no savings and no margin of safety. But, high savings means that not only is your wealth going to mathematically sustain your lifestyle at a certain point(FIRE), it also means you're giving yourself your own raises, year after year, and a separate stream of income so your employer can fuck off if they put you in a bad spot, and you don't have to worry if layoffs hit or any other garbage.

[Schaefer Light]

I believe that the ultimate goal of those driven to FIRE and those driven to wealth is simply happiness.  People have different beliefs about what will make them happy, but in either case (those pursuing FIRE or those pursuing great wealth) there's something called "medium maximization" at work. 

"We humans have the tendency to prefer the immediate outcomes so as a result we get preoccupied by maximizing the medium (money) to create an illusion of getting closer to the outcome (happiness)."

https://medium.com/@narbeh/medium-maximization-the-money-trap-de8b38b1340c

[Babybalrog]

There is probably a bunch of hubris in this statement, but when I look to build a Stash bigger than I need, I'm typically thinking about my children, grandchildren, or the charities i could support. Yea there may be a little life style inflation along the way. Eventually I'll get heat turned on in the winter. But mainly it is about doing good for my, my family, and the people/causes I care about with my stash.

[Enigma]

In my opinion being driven to FIRE results in an end of a long marathon.  An individual will never meet their goal if they are driven to wealth because they keep raising the bar.  I have been driven to wealth for so long I have no idea when it is a perfect time to FIRE.

[Incandenza]

Trying to live off of less is a fun challenge for me, I thoroughly enjoy it.

+1.  I like the challenge.  I particularly like challenges where 1) I'm in complete control of the effort and 2) that effort can be tracked methodically, preferably in numbers.  It's like training for a marathon.  The work itself brings just as much satisfaction as the end result.  I'm not really sure if and when I want to retire, and what exactly that might look like.  I just enjoy the effort and sense of control that comes with this process.   

[Hargrove]

Driven to wealth means driven to accumulate.

Driven to FIRE means driven to accumulate free time.

One is just a subcategory (with a conclusion).

[RedmondStash]

One of the recurring themes I read here frequently is that spending on more than you "need" = bad -- it's all driven by a mad lust for power, or ego, or a desire to impress other people.  Clearly, some people behave that way and are driven by those things.  But as for me, well, honestly, I couldn't give a shit about what people think -- I'm an introvert, people outside my immediate circle are sort of only marginally relevant to my life anyway.  :-)  If anything, the pressure is the other way around:  I bought my stupid car *knowing* my mom would disapprove -- and her opinion I do value.  I would much rather fly under the radar, and it annoys me that I own some things that attract attention.

Agreed. I know we spend more than we need to, but I don't mind; to me, time and money are trade-offs. The faster you accumulate money, the more time you'll have to do exactly what you want -- someday. Spending more now means postponing FIRE. But that's fine with me. FIRE isn't the goal; happiness is, and that includes Today Me as well as Future Me.

It all comes down to emotional responses, and, as Laura33 said, people being different. When I was younger and rapidly going into debt because of recession/unemployment issues, it made me feel terrible that I couldn't even afford a freakin' box of Ho-Ho's, or a restaurant lunch. Made me feel like a failure. Today, I am happy to (mostly) forego those things because I now get satisfaction from saving for FIRE. I have friends who still feel bad about themselves if they can't really afford something, so they go out to dinner and movies, and they buy seasons of TV shows on DVD, even though they have literally nothing saved for retirement and aren't exactly young. I was able to shift my perspective, but not all people can or do.