Author Topic: Well, back to Walmart I go  (Read 13702 times)

DragonSlayer

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 217
Well, back to Walmart I go
« on: May 16, 2015, 11:40:35 AM »
We used to shop at Walmart all the time, but quit b/c the customer service was so lousy. (You could never get out of the place!) But now our other grocery store has remodeled and really jacked prices. By as much as $3 on some items. Ouch. I didn't mind shopping with them when they were a few cents more, or even up to .50 cents more. The CS experience was worth it. But it's clear now how they plan to pay for this remodel so I'm going to have to vote with my wallet. Sigh...

Unfortunately, we live in an area with few choices. There's the one decent grocery store which has jacked up prices, a really scuzzy grocery store, and Walmart. That's about it. So back to Walmart, I guess. Not thrilled about it, but we went in today and it was better than I remembered. Maybe a new manager has taken over.

Davids

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 977
  • Location: Somewhere in the USA.
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2015, 02:40:00 PM »
Nothing wrong with that. Remember you are a Mustachian and Walmart has its benefits for Mustachians.

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7374
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2015, 03:23:39 PM »
It's interesting how prices vary by location. In one place I used to live, Walmart's groceries were definitely cheaper than standard grocery stores. Where I live now, the grocery store across the street from the Walmart consistently has substantially lower prices, wider selection, and better quality food.

Lordy

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • Location: Germany
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2015, 03:30:24 PM »
I have noticed the same thing here. My preferred supermarket has suddenly raised the price for Avocados from 0.99 to 1.99 (EUR). My favorite bacon is 1.79 there and 2.29 at another shop.

It's a bit annoying to go to three different places to get everything but who said being a Mustachian is easy?

KMMK

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1464
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
    • Meena Kestirke Insurance
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2015, 06:00:30 PM »
I shop at Walmart a lot because I don't have a car and it's the closest large store. It's not ideal, but you can't have everything you want at the same time. 

choppingwood

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2015, 06:12:04 PM »
It's a bit annoying to go to three different places to get everything but who said being a Mustachian is easy?

Target recently backed out of Canada after a miserable failure. One of their comments was that they hadn't realized that Canadians would shop at multiple stores to get the best prices for their shopping....

Rubic

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1130
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2015, 06:29:53 PM »
Target recently backed out of Canada after a miserable failure. One of their comments was that they hadn't realized that Canadians would shop at multiple stores to get the best prices for their shopping....

You Canadians.  This is why we can't have nice things.

;-)

Frankies Girl

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3899
  • Age: 86
  • Location: The oubliette.
  • Ghouls Just Wanna Have Funds!
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2015, 06:33:19 PM »


OP - so sorry you're being forced back to WalMart. I won't shop there at all for any reason if I can help it, but I get if it is really the best/only option for most people. Just hate that place so much.

I'd try the "scuzzy" grocery store if you can stand it to double check the actual prices/food quality really are. I have a run down store in a group of four I shop (literally one on each corner near my house), and it beats the crap out of the other three (one of which is Aldi) on certain items and their actual food quality is pretty awesome - I get family packs of chicken drumsticks that are super fresh and good for 59¢/lb for instance. Their whole meat department kicks ass actually, so that's where I get all of my great deals unless one of the other places has a good buy on clearance. Also great on staples like rice and beans and certain fruits and veggies.

The store looks like it hasn't been remodeled since the early 1980s - a bit rough/run down looking in general and they play just lovely elevator music (also from the early 80s), but I have no issues with all of that due to the good buys. ;)


RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20798
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2015, 06:41:53 PM »
So MMM comes by his mustachianism honestly, he is just being Canadian.

And yes, unless the savings are offset by a higher cost from going to more than one place, why wouldn't people go to more than one place?

It's a bit annoying to go to three different places to get everything but who said being a Mustachian is easy?

Target recently backed out of Canada after a miserable failure. One of their comments was that they hadn't realized that Canadians would shop at multiple stores to get the best prices for their shopping....

PJ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1427
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2015, 07:38:13 PM »
I never thought that I'd shop regularly at Walmart, but it happens to be the store that is halfway between my home and work.  Plus they price match.  Plus I'm often needing to pick up things for work as well, and we have a tight budget there so I need to get the best prices.  So ... it's become "my" grocery store.  If I'm passing other stores, then I will sometimes stop in and pick something up, but the vast majority of the groceries I buy now come from the big W. 

SomedayStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Live Long and Prosper
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2015, 07:55:06 AM »
I tried the Walmart Savings Catcher app for about a month and never had a single item on my receipts that price matched as lower elsewhere.  I'm not sure if this should be attributed to (1) mostly buying food staples and almost nothing packaged and always buying generic or (2) because the other stores in my area don't actually have lower prices then Walmart. 
Scanning other peoples receipts might be a way around (1), but probably not worth the effort.

Mississippi Mudstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2173
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Danielsville, GA
    • A Riving Home - Ramblings of a Recusant Woodworker
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2015, 08:07:49 AM »
Our options for groceries locally are Publix (nice, but expensive), Winn-Dixie (not as nice, equally expensive), and Walmart, (not nice, but substantially less expensive). Unfortunately, Walmart is about 10 miles away, whereas Winn-Dixe and Publix are only 4 miles away. So it typically works out that we do one big grocery trip per month to Walmart, buying what we need in the meantime at Publix. It's nice, because it keeps the Walmart trips to a minimum and we still get decent prices on groceries.

Publix can be cheaper when things are on a buy one, get one free sale - which they run regularly, but only on random items that we mostly don't buy - but you're never going to make a big run and come out cheaper than Walmart around here.

Bob W

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Missouri
  • Live on minimum wage, earn on maximum
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2015, 08:17:08 AM »
Apparently you are not the only one shopping Wal-Mart as they are the most popular grocery store.   Which should tell us something as they only became serious about the grocery side of their business about 30 years ago while most of their competition has been doing it for decades longer.   

I'm a Wal-Mart lover ---  Around here they are very well kept up,  have great customer service and the best prices.   I suppose it differs depending on where you live?

The other stores around here --- HyVee, Kroger and Dierbergs are over the top expensive compared to WM.   I do occasionally buy their loss leader meats and few loss leader odds and ends.   

The thing about WM is that I can pick up food, gifts, paint, automotive, camping, etc.. all in the same trip.   


Dorje

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Lafayette, CO
    • ZenWave Audio
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2015, 11:20:43 AM »
If you can get to a Costco instead of a Wal Mart I think that's a far better place to shop. The owner of Costco is awesome and pays his employees far more than he has to, the actually get a living wage and as a result people are at Costco for a career, not just passing time until something better comes along.

Basically, F^&k Wal Mart. The way they treat their employees, and the way they try to get their employees to sign up for social services so Wal Mart doesn't have to provide them makes me sick. Your money savings shopping at Wal Mart is very hard to justify if you are a decent human being.

LalsConstant

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 439
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2015, 12:58:34 PM »
Basically, F^&k Wal Mart. The way they treat their employees, and the way they try to get their employees to sign up for social services so Wal Mart doesn't have to provide them makes me sick. Your money savings shopping at Wal Mart is very hard to justify if you are a decent human being.

I love how people form these opinions without actually talking to people like me who actually were or perhaps still are full time Wal-Mart employees...

Yeah it's bad but the hysterics some people on this forum have about Wal-Mart are beyond reason sometimes and leave me shaking my head.

OSUBearCub

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Orlando, Florida
  • Tackling student loan debt/not saving dryer lint.
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2015, 09:03:46 AM »
Walmart is actually costing you more than you think:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/

Now if we all stopped shopping at Walmart and it failed, there would be a whole lot of unemployed folks flooding the market.  This situation would have a significant cost of its own.  Thus, the article/report above is rather simplistic.

I choose to shop at Aldi for groceries.  Both Aldi and Walmart expect me to do all the work in the retail experience, but Aldi provides me a better-curated stock of products and a smaller store to schlep through. Aldi also beats Walmart's prices by 30-40%.  I only hit up Walmart for a very select basket of items, most of which are non-grocery.

***Edited to correct a grammar error***
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 01:59:46 PM by OSUBearCub »

TheContinentalOp

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
  • Location: Shenadoah Valley, Virginia
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2015, 09:23:27 AM »
Walmart (4 miles) away is significantly cheaper than the Giant that is 1/2 mile away. I don't have a trailer for my bike (yet) so I end up making the drive every other week. The township would not let them operate 24 hours a day. So I try to get there when they open (7am) on a Saturday or Sunday and am able to get out pretty quickly.

 One time I made the mistake of visiting at 1pm. Never again.

Dorje

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Lafayette, CO
    • ZenWave Audio
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2015, 10:55:11 AM »
Basically, F^&k Wal Mart. The way they treat their employees, and the way they try to get their employees to sign up for social services so Wal Mart doesn't have to provide them makes me sick. Your money savings shopping at Wal Mart is very hard to justify if you are a decent human being.

I love how people form these opinions without actually talking to people like me who actually were or perhaps still are full time Wal-Mart employees...

Yeah it's bad but the hysterics some people on this forum have about Wal-Mart are beyond reason sometimes and leave me shaking my head.


The fact anyone actually shops there makes me shake my head.

But, I guess being aware of how your spending affects your world and just trying to save some cash are two completely different things.

LalsConstant

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 439
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2015, 06:13:42 AM »
Basically, F^&k Wal Mart. The way they treat their employees, and the way they try to get their employees to sign up for social services so Wal Mart doesn't have to provide them makes me sick. Your money savings shopping at Wal Mart is very hard to justify if you are a decent human being.

I love how people form these opinions without actually talking to people like me who actually were or perhaps still are full time Wal-Mart employees...

Yeah it's bad but the hysterics some people on this forum have about Wal-Mart are beyond reason sometimes and leave me shaking my head.


The fact anyone actually shops there makes me shake my head.

But, I guess being aware of how your spending affects your world and just trying to save some cash are two completely different things.

Fair enough.  When you are shopping at Wal-Mart you are putting money in the pockets someone like me needs to get through a rough patch in their life, and you are employing thousands of people's who who would otherwise be completely economically non-viable.  You are also using a proprietary infrastructure that is amazingly bad ass in its complexity and efficiency.

Of course you are also contributing to an industry that just sucks to work in, creating the demand for low skill labor and enabling terrible decisions made by the incompetent managers who oversee these hapless souls.

Look working for Wal-Mart sucks but it's the only job I have ever had where customers and employees both told me they are grateful every day this company exists.  I saw them screw some people over too mostly because they use policies created by richly compensated executives who have never busted carts or mopped a floor that have nothing to do with reality.

It's a mixed bag is all I am saying.  I saw them for example reform their 401k to have lower expenses and to include some reasonable target date portfolios, very paternal moves considering their employees typically lack any investment acumen and I say that as one of them.  On the other hand paying highly productive employees the same as worthless ones not so great.

Wal-Mart can't do anything right in the eyes of its critics I have learned.  I do not think it's some amazing enterprise that can't be replaced but anything of this size is going to be rife with problems. 

MandalayVA

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1569
  • Location: Orlando FL
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2015, 07:41:41 AM »
Basically, F^&k Wal Mart. The way they treat their employees, and the way they try to get their employees to sign up for social services so Wal Mart doesn't have to provide them makes me sick. Your money savings shopping at Wal Mart is very hard to justify if you are a decent human being.

I love how people form these opinions without actually talking to people like me who actually were or perhaps still are full time Wal-Mart employees...

Yeah it's bad but the hysterics some people on this forum have about Wal-Mart are beyond reason sometimes and leave me shaking my head.

I am a former minion of the Evil Empire and I can assure you that if it does anything nice or even humane for its employees it's because it was sued into it.  If you work there long enough expect to get information about a class action lawsuit you can join--you'll get a nice check out of it.

Dorje

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Lafayette, CO
    • ZenWave Audio
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2015, 09:25:32 AM »
If Wal Mart didn't exist you could be working for one of the many local shops that would spring up to replace them, with a 99% chance it'll be a better experience.

Another problem with Wal Mart is it makes the communities it moves into poorer. The Waltons don't live in your town and don't give back to it, in fact the opposite. They TAKE from your town and use what are supposed to be social safety nets for their own employees rather than compensating them fairly. Wal Mart replaces many local businesses that would be owned by members of your own community, who would then spend their money locally, helping support other businesses in the community. They would employ many of the people currently working at Wal Mart and pay them more fairly (in most cases) enabling them to also contribute more to the health and wealth of the community they live in.

tl/dr...When you give your money to Wal Mart none of it goes back into your community, it goes to increase the wealth of some of the wealthiest folks in the world, and simultaneously takes away from the financial health of your own community and the people who work in it.

Buy hey, you just saved $1...

LalsConstant

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 439
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2015, 10:50:07 AM »
If Wal Mart didn't exist you could be working for one of the many local shops that would spring up to replace them, with a 99% chance it'll be a better experience.

Another problem with Wal Mart is it makes the communities it moves into poorer. The Waltons don't live in your town and don't give back to it, in fact the opposite. They TAKE from your town and use what are supposed to be social safety nets for their own employees rather than compensating them fairly. Wal Mart replaces many local businesses that would be owned by members of your own community, who would then spend their money locally, helping support other businesses in the community. They would employ many of the people currently working at Wal Mart and pay them more fairly (in most cases) enabling them to also contribute more to the health and wealth of the community they live in.

tl/dr...When you give your money to Wal Mart none of it goes back into your community, it goes to increase the wealth of some of the wealthiest folks in the world, and simultaneously takes away from the financial health of your own community and the people who work in it.

Buy hey, you just saved $1...

But this is such a spurious argument.  Why should anyone pay more for anything than what it actually costs?

Why blame Wal-Mart for the choices that consumers make?  The company is only as big as people allow it to be.

If someone's best economic opportunity is Wal-Mart and you take that away, they resort to their second best opportunity.  The idea the employees are better off with diminished demand for their labor is a strange one.

Funny thing is I left WMT to become a tax preparer for small businesses.  Not only did those people generally get paid less than WMT people, they had no insurance no retirement plan etc.  Life is just rough at the bottom of the labor market.

Dorje

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Lafayette, CO
    • ZenWave Audio
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2015, 12:55:04 PM »
It's not a spurious argument, you just don't understand what I am saying.

If WM was not around there would be other businesses people could get jobs at, because with WM gone other businesses would have a much greater chance of success. If all WMs disappeared tomorrow it would cause a problem but then other businesses would pop up to serve the community.

Finally, if WM was replaced by locally owned businesses that paid their employees a fair wage then the entire community would be wealthier and happier.

I think it's obvious you can't count on consumers to do what's in their own best interests, that is the whole premise of MMM. In fact, humans continue to make bad decisions in most every aspect of their lives. Over and over again. If you really look at the WM epidemic, it's pretty obvious we would all be better off if everyone simply stopped shopping there. But hey, choosing short term financial gain over long term happiness is "normal", so have at it and save your $1.


DragonSlayer

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 217
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2015, 02:43:38 PM »
But the fact is, you have to live in the world you live in. Where I (OP) live, WM has pretty much taken the competition away. And they're not coming back. And no amount of my shopping at the other store in town will change that. At this point, with their ridiculous pricing decisions, all it will do is reward a business who has decided to screw their customers in order to (apparently) pay for a swanky remodel that didn't have to be done in the first place.

If we all just stopped shopping at WM tomorrow (in my town), we'd all be pretty darn broke or hungry because there just aren't other reasonable choices. Sure, I can pay the $5.98 that the grocery store is now asking for a jar of peanut butter, but I that's not in my best interests. What's in my best interests is to get a fair value. And the $2.96 that WM charges is fair. So, yes, I may be contributing to the rise of the devil, but in some places, there just aren't any reasonable choices. (And, yes, I have a garden and it produces quite a bit, but I can't live on that alone).

PJ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1427
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2015, 02:44:44 PM »
Dorje, you say that it's "pretty obvious" we would all be better off if people stopped shopping at WM, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as that, at least not in the short term/the world we currently live in.  And your repeated jabs about those who shop there saving "$1" vs. making what you think is the moral choice, is what's called an "argumentum ad hominem" - a logical fallacy in which you try to make your argument by attacking the character of the person you're debating.  (Please note, I realize you may already know about logical fallacies, but it's a public forum, so there may be those reading along who don't.)

A few thoughts I have on the subject:

First, you seem to think that if WM went out of business tomorrow, it would instantly be replaced by a bunch of mom and pop shops.  Is that really the case?  I suspect the biggest gains would be had by (in my area) Food Basics, and No Frills, and Price Chopper, etc.  In other words, other big "budget" grocery chains, none of which give their employees enough in the way of pay and benefits to make them rich.  My niece works at one, so I know!

Second, WM, like so many big corporations, will only work toward meeting minimum labour standards.  The best way to effect change, IMO, is to work toward increasing those labour standards at a federal or provincial (state) level.  Then conditions improve not only for WM employees, but for employees everywhere.

Third, as LalsConstant has said, life is rough at the fringes of the labour market.  WM is a damn big step up from some of the places I know about where labour standards are not followed, and people are manipulated and abused.  I have to wonder, in the short term, what would happen to many WM employees if the whole corporation suddenly folded, and they had to find other jobs.  How many of them would be pushed into jobs where they had no workers compensation/disability coverage, weren't paid minimum wage, etc, but were afraid to speak up because "they need the job." 

Note #1 about my third point.  It's emotional for me - there's a young woman I've known through work for a couple of years now, who can only find work in these sweatshop kind of places, and constantly updates me on the egregious things her employer does.  She doesn't seem to feel she has other choices, and won't even consider challenging them legally, in part because she needs the money, and in part because if they go under, all her friends will also be out of a job.  I, in turn, actively encourage her to look for work at least at WM, or McD's, or some other place where a certain level of protection and compliance is standard.  Truly, a WM job would be a big step up for her.  Which is sad.

Note #2 about my third point.  I'm aware this last point falls into the category of "fallacy of the slippery slope," where an argument is countered by the suggestion that the proposed solution could lead to an even worse outcome down the road.  We all tend to fall back on these logical fallacies at times :-)

My final point, as my work brings me into contact with quite a few low income people, is that there are a lot of people who really rely on the low prices at WM, not because they're greedy but because their finances hang by a thread.  Your "locally owned businesses that pay their employees a fair wage" would also likely have higher prices.  That might benefit the employees, but not the very low income people who need to stretch their $1 as far as it can possibly go.

Look, I'm not actually arguing that WM is a positive force in the community and that we should all flock there to shop because it will change the world for the better.  But I do think the debate is a bit more nuanced than you have implied, and that your argument - while laudable - presupposes an ideal future where the whole structure of consumer options will change.  That's about as likely to happen as for the practice of tipping to be abolished - an argument for another time ;-) 

Bob W

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Missouri
  • Live on minimum wage, earn on maximum
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2015, 03:37:38 PM »
If Wal Mart didn't exist you could be working for one of the many local shops that would spring up to replace them, with a 99% chance it'll be a better experience.

Another problem with Wal Mart is it makes the communities it moves into poorer. The Waltons don't live in your town and don't give back to it, in fact the opposite. They TAKE from your town and use what are supposed to be social safety nets for their own employees rather than compensating them fairly. Wal Mart replaces many local businesses that would be owned by members of your own community, who would then spend their money locally, helping support other businesses in the community. They would employ many of the people currently working at Wal Mart and pay them more fairly (in most cases) enabling them to also contribute more to the health and wealth of the community they live in.

tl/dr...When you give your money to Wal Mart none of it goes back into your community, it goes to increase the wealth of some of the wealthiest folks in the world, and simultaneously takes away from the financial health of your own community and the people who work in it.

Buy hey, you just saved $1...

But this is such a spurious argument.  Why should anyone pay more for anything than what it actually costs?

Why blame Wal-Mart for the choices that consumers make?  The company is only as big as people allow it to be.

If someone's best economic opportunity is Wal-Mart and you take that away, they resort to their second best opportunity.  The idea the employees are better off with diminished demand for their labor is a strange one.

Funny thing is I left WMT to become a tax preparer for small businesses.  Not only did those people generally get paid less than WMT people, they had no insurance no retirement plan etc.  Life is just rough at the bottom of the labor market.

God bless you for your service to Wal-Mart!   Wal-Mart associates are true patriots in my book.

I just ran across this in another thread ---

What!?  Your Wal-Mart delivers groceries?     Tell us more?  Is that $5 for a big cart full or just a few items?  Where do you live?  Is this a test program or available to a lot of big city folks?     

I would gladly pay $5 to log on, choose my items and have them delivered.  Hell even $10 would be worth it.   I would save that much on avoiding impulse purchases.
[/quote]
WalMart is trying out grocery delivery in certain cities.  The minimum order it $50.  I pay $5 for a 4 hour delivery window.  This service is the biggest money saver for us because we're horrible impulse shoppers.  I can sit in our kitchen and check if we have items already.  I also add items through the week when I notice we're out of something.  Every once in a while, we have an item substituted or out of stock, but we've been really happy with the service. 

My referral link http://refer.walmart.com/v2/share/6150624885282929655  You get $10 off, I get $10 off

WalMart delivery is currently available in San Jose, CA; Phoenix, AZ; Denver, CO; Bentonville, AR; and Hunstville, AL.
[/quote]

That is pretty neat and a 4 hour delivery window is decent.   Apparently not available in my town.   I love the idea of ordering from home,  avoiding impulse buying,  keeping list organized and being able to check your cabinets and freezer.   

This is really a service that is 15 years overdue.   Wal-Mart would be twice the sales volume and Amazon would be out of business had Wal-Mart embraced this years ago.

Note to Dorje --- I assume you have a University teaching job and live purely in the world of theory.   

In my hood Wal-Mart rocks.  For us low income folks it is a godsend and replaced those mom and pop high wage paying shops that mythically exist?     Many Wal-Mart long term employees I know have raised their families and sent their kids through college working at Wal-Mart.  They are also millionaires having been smart enough to buy company stock all along.

The average full time Wal-Mart associate around here makes 25K per year.   Ironically, that is the same amount of money that MMM spends per year. 

In addition,  Wal-Mart is a preferred employer that pays better that other employers and also offers more stability.   There simply aren't any mom and pop businesses anywhere that survive more than 30 years. 

And you might also recognize that the money Wal-Mart saves shoppers doesn't just magically disappear.   It is either spent in the community or invested.   Either way, that spreads the wealth and creates more jobs. 

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4931
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2015, 04:11:02 PM »
It's not a spurious argument, you just don't understand what I am saying.

If WM was not around there would be other businesses people could get jobs at, because with WM gone other businesses would have a much greater chance of success. If all WMs disappeared tomorrow it would cause a problem but then other businesses would pop up to serve the community.

Finally, if WM was replaced by locally owned businesses that paid their employees a fair wage then the entire community would be wealthier and happier.

I think it's obvious you can't count on consumers to do what's in their own best interests, that is the whole premise of MMM. In fact, humans continue to make bad decisions in most every aspect of their lives. Over and over again. If you really look at the WM epidemic, it's pretty obvious we would all be better off if everyone simply stopped shopping there. But hey, choosing short term financial gain over long term happiness is "normal", so have at it and save your $1.
Even if the locally owned business paid the same wage as WM, the profits would still be staying in the community and increase the wealth of the area. 

Bob W

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Missouri
  • Live on minimum wage, earn on maximum
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2015, 10:24:49 AM »
It's not a spurious argument, you just don't understand what I am saying.

If WM was not around there would be other businesses people could get jobs at, because with WM gone other businesses would have a much greater chance of success. If all WMs disappeared tomorrow it would cause a problem but then other businesses would pop up to serve the community.

Finally, if WM was replaced by locally owned businesses that paid their employees a fair wage then the entire community would be wealthier and happier.

I think it's obvious you can't count on consumers to do what's in their own best interests, that is the whole premise of MMM. In fact, humans continue to make bad decisions in most every aspect of their lives. Over and over again. If you really look at the WM epidemic, it's pretty obvious we would all be better off if everyone simply stopped shopping there. But hey, choosing short term financial gain over long term happiness is "normal", so have at it and save your $1.
Even if the locally owned business paid the same wage as WM, the profits would still be staying in the community and increase the wealth of the area.

I'm 100% pro "buy local"   but it just isn't that simple.   Our locally owned businesses are mostly restaurants,  service businesses and a smattering of retail.  The restaurants export lots of money via food purchases.      My guess would be that the locally owned retailers send as much money to China as Wal-Mart.   Any profits are not shared with employees staff via stock.    Then what happens is after a number of years run the retailer closes up shop and moves to Florida taking all his cash with him.   

The point is pretty moot anyway.   We will not see in our lifetime a regression from large retailers to mom and pop stores.  What we are seeing is a trend from brick and mortar to internet sales.   In our state,  internet sales are not taxes so communities lose double. 

Dorje

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Lafayette, CO
    • ZenWave Audio
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2015, 11:17:29 AM »
Wow, can't see the forest for the trees comes to mind here.

Yes, short term WM will save you money but long term buying all your goods from a monolithic business who treats their employees only as good as they are legally required to, has their employees sign up for services that should be reserved as social safety nets and doesn't contribute anything to the health and well being of the communities they are located in maybe doesn't sound so appealing?

PJ, sorry I don't agree with your take that I am using ad hominem attacks. I do feel sorry for your friend but the thing to do there is move somewhere sweatshops are not allowed. This would be the number one goal of my life if I were in your friend's position. It is horrible that so many people are born into unfortunate circumstances. But the fact there are worse employers in the world than Wal Mart does not make Wal Mart good, that is certainly a logical fallacy.


whydavid

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2015, 12:42:24 PM »
Wow, can't see the forest for the trees comes to mind here.

Yes, short term WM will save you money but long term buying all your goods from a monolithic business who treats their employees only as good as they are legally required to, has their employees sign up for services that should be reserved as social safety nets and doesn't contribute anything to the health and well being of the communities they are located in maybe doesn't sound so appealing?


You are exaggerating...both the evils of WM and the benefits of whatever would replace them.

WM gives a lot back to the communities they are in.  Is this entirely a PR stunt? Probably, but it's "giving back" nonetheless: https://doublethedonation.com/blog/2014/08/top-10-companies-that-donated-to-charity/ (note that this article only refers to cash donations, not the in-kind donations that make up the majority of WM's charitable efforts.  It's a small percentage of their profits, and maybe (maybe not?) a smaller pct then most of their competitors, but it's also a far cry from "giving nothing back."

WM's competitors have a decent percentage of folks on public benefits, too, because the industry sucks.  Using some data from my state (a decade old, but can't see why it wouldn't hold true still), WM comes in around 10% and the other major grocery chains are sitting around 5%.  WM claims nationally the difference is more like 5% to 4%, but even if we take the 2:1 ratio as accurate, about half of the $6 billion benefit cost for WM employees would exist if you replaced them with their major competitors.  That's 3 billion bucks, divided by 300 million Americans...so my family of three needs to pay $30/yr in federal taxes just to subsidize WM.  Guess what? We're saving far more than that by shopping there, so I'll gladly throw in the 30 bucks.  This math is obviously a little fuzzy, so lets multiply that by a factor of 10 and I'm still coming out way ahead.  WM is cheaper than its competitors primarily because of a ruthless and efficient supply chain (which is also better for the environment, but let's ignore that), not the nickle-and-diming of employees.  I suppose this is part of why people hate WM so much, because they nickel-and-dime even when they don't have to; it's a good point.

The mom-and-pop market I shop at for a lot of my vegetables (much better prices that WM) pays close to minimum wage and I've never seen a disabled person bagging groceries or greeting people at the door.  While mega-stores kind of suck, they do open up positions for folks who otherwise are not going to find it. 

Walmart probably doesn't deserve any credit on their own for any of the above.  They do what they have been forced or pressured to do.  I get that; WM is not controlled by good folks.  The Walton family has given about three dollars to charity over their lifetimes, but 99% of their competition aren't owned by Arthur T Demoulas either (they are more likely to be owned by folks like Arthur S...that scoundrel). 

WM has done a lot of crappy stuff, and their incentives for store managers lead to a lot of terrible behavior that, while not sanctioned by corporate, is nonetheless an indirect result of the company's focus on profit/efficiency over the kind of stuff that made Arthur T's employees walk out when he was fired.  There is a reason WM's cash registers are linked to its timekeeping system and will force out employees who haven't taken their mandated breaks -- without these controls managers would happily work their staff right through break time (and I seem to recall some stories of those managers just clocking the employees out anyways to get around that).  However, comparing them to some 1950's era mom-and-pop gold standard, instead of the other mega-corporations that comprise their actual competitors in 2015, is akin to daydreaming.  There is a real [gigantic] market for the reasonably priced groceries WM provides, and you or I shopping at Trader Joe's isn't going to change that.  Costco has managed to find a model that allows me to save money and also spend my money at a place where the employees are treated reasonably...if I find a similar innovator in the general grocery segment, or if Market Basket sets up down the street, I'll happily move my business over.  In the meantime, I see no compelling reason to shop at Safeway/Target/Fry's/etc.  Let's see one of them take a real stand for their workers, and this calculus might change.

Rural

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5051
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2015, 03:54:46 PM »
For the record, the Walmart Foundation provides a lot of funding for the small local nonprofit I chair. They have their issues, some of them in droves, but the PP who said they don't give back to the local communities is misinformed.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4931
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2015, 04:34:59 PM »
Wow, can't see the forest for the trees comes to mind here.

Yes, short term WM will save you money but long term buying all your goods from a monolithic business who treats their employees only as good as they are legally required to, has their employees sign up for services that should be reserved as social safety nets and doesn't contribute anything to the health and well being of the communities they are located in maybe doesn't sound so appealing?


You are exaggerating...both the evils of WM and the benefits of whatever would replace them.

WM gives a lot back to the communities they are in.  Is this entirely a PR stunt? Probably, but it's "giving back" nonetheless: https://doublethedonation.com/blog/2014/08/top-10-companies-that-donated-to-charity/ (note that this article only refers to cash donations, not the in-kind donations that make up the majority of WM's charitable efforts.  It's a small percentage of their profits, and maybe (maybe not?) a smaller pct then most of their competitors, but it's also a far cry from "giving nothing back."

WM's competitors have a decent percentage of folks on public benefits, too, because the industry sucks.  Using some data from my state (a decade old, but can't see why it wouldn't hold true still), WM comes in around 10% and the other major grocery chains are sitting around 5%.  WM claims nationally the difference is more like 5% to 4%, but even if we take the 2:1 ratio as accurate, about half of the $6 billion benefit cost for WM employees would exist if you replaced them with their major competitors.  That's 3 billion bucks, divided by 300 million Americans...so my family of three needs to pay $30/yr in federal taxes just to subsidize WM.  Guess what? We're saving far more than that by shopping there, so I'll gladly throw in the 30 bucks.  This math is obviously a little fuzzy, so lets multiply that by a factor of 10 and I'm still coming out way ahead.  WM is cheaper than its competitors primarily because of a ruthless and efficient supply chain (which is also better for the environment, but let's ignore that), not the nickle-and-diming of employees.  I suppose this is part of why people hate WM so much, because they nickel-and-dime even when they don't have to; it's a good point.

The mom-and-pop market I shop at for a lot of my vegetables (much better prices that WM) pays close to minimum wage and I've never seen a disabled person bagging groceries or greeting people at the door.  While mega-stores kind of suck, they do open up positions for folks who otherwise are not going to find it. 

Walmart probably doesn't deserve any credit on their own for any of the above.  They do what they have been forced or pressured to do.  I get that; WM is not controlled by good folks.  The Walton family has given about three dollars to charity over their lifetimes, but 99% of their competition aren't owned by Arthur T Demoulas either (they are more likely to be owned by folks like Arthur S...that scoundrel). 

WM has done a lot of crappy stuff, and their incentives for store managers lead to a lot of terrible behavior that, while not sanctioned by corporate, is nonetheless an indirect result of the company's focus on profit/efficiency over the kind of stuff that made Arthur T's employees walk out when he was fired.  There is a reason WM's cash registers are linked to its timekeeping system and will force out employees who haven't taken their mandated breaks -- without these controls managers would happily work their staff right through break time (and I seem to recall some stories of those managers just clocking the employees out anyways to get around that).  However, comparing them to some 1950's era mom-and-pop gold standard, instead of the other mega-corporations that comprise their actual competitors in 2015, is akin to daydreaming.  There is a real [gigantic] market for the reasonably priced groceries WM provides, and you or I shopping at Trader Joe's isn't going to change that.  Costco has managed to find a model that allows me to save money and also spend my money at a place where the employees are treated reasonably...if I find a similar innovator in the general grocery segment, or if Market Basket sets up down the street, I'll happily move my business over.  In the meantime, I see no compelling reason to shop at Safeway/Target/Fry's/etc.  Let's see one of them take a real stand for their workers, and this calculus might change.
Safeway is unionized which does make a difference.

PJ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1427
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2015, 07:11:34 PM »
Wow, can't see the forest for the trees comes to mind here.

PJ, sorry I don't agree with your take that I am using ad hominem attacks.

Well, IMO, you're doing it again.  The implication of your "can't see the forest for the trees" comment is that because other posters don't agree with you, that they (we) must be lacking in insight or stupid.  Several of us have actually said that to a degree we do agree with you and understand the point that you're making.  Do you not likewise see that your argument that we all stop shopping at WM en masse fails to take into account certain economic and market realities? 

I do feel sorry for your friend but the thing to do there is move somewhere sweatshops are not allowed. This would be the number one goal of my life if I were in your friend's position.

I think other posters have responded quite well to some of the other things that you said in your last post.  But I just wanted to say ... um, I live in Canada?  Sweatshops are not allowed here.  That doesn't mean that they don't exist.  Everything my "friend" (more like "client" as she is a former parishioner) tells me about is a contradiction of labour standards and therefore a violation of law at some level or another.

But here's the problem ...

Unemployment rate in Canada "remained unchanged at 6.80 percent in April of 2015 from 6.80 percent in March of 2015" http://www.tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate

Unemployment rate for Ontario being 7.3% in 2014 http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/ecupdates/factsheet.html

Unemployment rate in Toronto "at 8.4 per cent in December" http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/01/14/torontos_jobless_rate_nearly_highest_among_canadas_big_cities.html?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dunemployment%2Brate%2Bin%2Btoronto%26form%3DIE11TR%26src%3DIE11TR%26pc%3DLCJB

This young lady doesn't have the means - financially, or emotionally, to pick up and move.  Furthermore, she's an immigrant.  Here for a long time, but socially isolated and quite frankly, her English is not good and shows no signs of making improvement.  I'm not even sure she has the intellectual capacity to improve, and I suspect she doesn't interview well.  She has many lovely qualities as a person, but maybe not as an employee.  Wherever she might go, she's likely to find herself at the bottom of the hiring list.  Might there be other reasons for her to move?  Sure, COL is lower many places than in Toronto.  But she's probably still going to end up working somewhere marginal.  And if that somewhere was WM (or McD's, or Tim Horton's, etc) where she would make minimum wage and have Worker's Compensation coverage ... that would still be a step up.

Dorje

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Lafayette, CO
    • ZenWave Audio
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2015, 10:20:35 AM »
Wow, can't see the forest for the trees comes to mind here.

PJ, sorry I don't agree with your take that I am using ad hominem attacks.

Well, IMO, you're doing it again.  The implication of your "can't see the forest for the trees" comment is that because other posters don't agree with you, that they (we) must be lacking in insight or stupid.  Several of us have actually said that to a degree we do agree with you and understand the point that you're making.  Do you not likewise see that your argument that we all stop shopping at WM en masse fails to take into account certain economic and market realities? 


I'm not sure you actually understand ad hominem. And me saying this is NOT another ad hominem! An attack on character requires judgement and simply saying that some folks have a shorter-term perspective on the issue than I think is reasonable is also NOT an attack on one's character. Or saying that I think something is misunderstood is also not a personal attack. There's a big difference between these things that I think you may be missing.

Anyway, I think this is now beating a dead horse. About ad hominem and about Wal Mart.

I just think that many times the cheapest, easiest way of doing things is often not the best way of doing things. I think a we need to make decisions with a longer term perspective, we need to think about our children and what kind of place you want to leave for your own kids and grandchildren. I like the quote from the Iroquois Nation Constitution:

"The thickness of your skin shall be seven spans -- which is to say that you shall be proof against anger, offensive actions and criticism.   Your heart shall be filled with peace and good will and your mind filled with a yearning for the welfare of the people of the Confederacy.  With endless patience you shall carry out your duty and your firmness shall be tempered with tenderness for your people.  Neither anger nor fury shall find lodgement in your mind and all your words and actions shall be marked with calm deliberation.  In all of your deliberations in the Confederate Council, in your efforts at law making, in all your official acts, self interest shall be cast into oblivion.  Cast not over your shoulder behind you the warnings of the nephews and nieces should they chide you for any error or wrong you may do, but return to the way of the Great Law which is just and right.  Look and listen for the welfare of the whole people and have always in view not only the present but also the coming generations, even those whose faces are yet beneath the surface of the ground -- the unborn of the future Nation."


In short, act to benefit future generations, not sacrifice their well being for your own gains today. Frugality may be good but anything taken to the extreme is harmful. 

Tabaxus

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 452
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2015, 01:19:01 PM »
Be more sanctimonious please.

Dorje

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Lafayette, CO
    • ZenWave Audio
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2015, 09:54:21 AM »
Be more sanctimonious please.

Lol, Hit too close to home 'eh? Sorry for hurting your feelings. :)

Tabaxus

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 452
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2015, 02:26:43 PM »
Be more sanctimonious please.

Lol, Hit too close to home 'eh? Sorry for hurting your feelings. :)

Not at all. I just get a laugh out of head-in-the-clouds types. 

Latwell

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2015, 09:18:59 PM »
I never personally understood all the hate on Walmart. In my opinion, it's the same easy hate against McDonald's and every other low paying job.

My first job: McDonald's
My second job: Walmart

McDonald's was the worst pay, even after becoming manager. Went to walmart and made a decent wage for a teenager and it paid more right off the bat compared to McDonald's. It was seriously the easiest job I have ever had (maybe it was a smudge harder than a hostess job I had soon after). The location I worked for treated their employees well; I'm assuming I got lucky on this one.

These low wage jobs aren't meant to be jobs for life. They're an introduction to the workforce for people. I don't understand how people can justify paying low end and incredibly easy jobs a higher salary.

Though, I do commend Costco for paying their employees better than competitors. They are encouraging less turnover which obviously saves money where they would otherwise be spending to train another person.

Bob W

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2942
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Missouri
  • Live on minimum wage, earn on maximum
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2015, 08:22:42 AM »
We should probably just pass the Affordable Grocery Act.  That way we could all be compelled to pay 25% of our GNP for some of the worst groceries in the world while the checkers are paid $40 per hour.   

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5983
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Well, back to Walmart I go
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2015, 10:42:11 AM »
What a bright idea. Bob W for president.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!