Author Topic: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?  (Read 14395 times)

phildonnia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 365
Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« on: April 22, 2019, 01:35:44 PM »
I know that the mustachian philosophy doesn't approve of displays of wealth, but do you actively hide it? 

Long ago, right after our twins were born, we saw a sign at the local church for "Free Breakfast -- Meet your Neighbors", and dropped in.  Well, it was more of a homeless soup kitchen, but we made some friends and everyone wanted to see our children again. 

We've been returning every Saturday for years now.  We always put a nice donation in the box, but we're careful not to let anyone see. 

So one day I was approached by a woman who was telling people about shelters and other services, and was even offering me money right there.  I tried to explain that we were far too blessed to take advantage of such a kind offer, and she gave me this pitiful look and said that she understood that it was difficult to accept help, and so on.  It was very uncomfortable. 

I could have bought everyone in that room an all-you-can-eat lobster brunch, but I probably would have lost some friendships, or at least altered them into something else.

Do you let people misunderstand you?  Do you smile and nod while friends and co-workers talk about the need to do something about greedy, evil rich people? Do you avoid giving any hints about your situation? What do you imagine would happen if your friends, family, or neighbors found out?

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2076
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2019, 02:50:07 PM »
I'm not under the illusion that anyone spends a significant amount of time thinking or caring about how much money I have.

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7439
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2019, 02:59:11 PM »
I don't know if I qualify as wealthy or not, but I definitely present as much lower income/lower net worth than I actually am.

Part of that in just inherent in saving more than half of what I earn in a given year (for example where I chose to live and the older car I drive are necessary consequences of having much less money to spend than my post-tax salary would suggest). Another part though is conscious choices when it comes to my clothing and appearance, as well as how I chose to present myself in causal conversation with people I meet.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2076
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2019, 03:07:30 PM »
I could have bought everyone in that room an all-you-can-eat lobster brunch, but I probably would have lost some friendships, or at least altered them into something else.

Is this really a decision to hide your wealth though? I could do a lot of really ostentatious (and charitable) stuff with my money like buy people lobster, but the number one reason I don't is because I don't want to, not because I'm trying to hide my wealth.

Bucksandreds

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 866
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2019, 03:17:05 PM »
I know some of my contemporaries see my car and my lack of flashy things and think things because they insinuate stuff. I’m not rich but there’s a good chance that I have a higher net worth than them. I always come clean that I’m well on my path to FIRE because I want to promote this alternative path.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7928
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2019, 03:39:38 PM »
I don’t understand pretending not to have money and hiding that you donate.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2019, 04:04:46 PM »

For a mid 50's single guy with well past a million in stash in a LCOL area with a paid-off home, I would probably be considered wealthy by many people around here, although I don't personally consider myself wealthy at all, and I bet all of my family and friends would guess I had much less of a stash than I do.  They would probably be especially shocked that I had almost that much outside of my work retirement account.  I drive an older car and live in a typical middle class neighborhood.  I don't have any expensive toys on display such as motorhomes, boats, or expensive motorcycles.  I dress pretty conservatively.  That doesn't mean I'm pretending or hiding, but what would be the point of going around letting people know?  I haven't had anyone offering me handouts, shelter, etc.

Brother Esau

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 648
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2019, 05:20:41 PM »

For a mid 50's single guy with well past a million in stash in a LCOL area with a paid-off home, I would probably be considered wealthy by many people around here, although I don't personally consider myself wealthy at all, and I bet all of my family and friends would guess I had much less of a stash than I do.  They would probably be especially shocked that I had almost that much outside of my work retirement account.  I drive an older car and live in a typical middle class neighborhood.  I don't have any expensive toys on display such as motorhomes, boats, or expensive motorcycles.  I dress pretty conservatively.  That doesn't mean I'm pretending or hiding, but what would be the point of going around letting people know?  I haven't had anyone offering me handouts, shelter, etc.

You meet the definition of wealthy for sure from a global perspective

golfreak12

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 365
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2019, 05:40:12 PM »
I was well hidden from my family for a long long time.
I have 5 brothers and sisters that all have professional jobs and I don't.
My mom and siblings thought I was "just getting by".
So I bought my first house from my brother back in 2004 and a little help from my Mom.
I built up my stash till 2011 when I got married and everyone chipped in and help again because they thought I needed it.
2013 I bought another house and moved. Suspicion came.
Until this time, my Mom would give us a nice chunk of money here and there. (don't worry My parents are loaded).
In 2018 I bought another house making 3 so now the cats are out of the bag.
They never ask but my family have to wonder how in the h3ll I can buy 3 houses when I'm the only earner in our household.

To answer your question, my family knows now. Our close friends know. Most of my workers probably don't. I don't try to display it but its hard when you have 3 houses.
My wife just graduated and has a job line up. Even better times and ahead.
We are now officially DINKs. Until we have a baby anyway :) :)

BudgetSlasher

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2019, 06:02:51 PM »
I'm open about it with a very small group of people; entirely friends that I have known more than 2/3s my life, my immediate (nuclear family), and my wife's nuclear family (some overlap with long-term friends).

As for everyone else . . . most people show no interest in my finances and I don't say anything. When conversation turns to finances (car payments, student loans, mortgages, credit cards, and the like) they tend to assume that I am in the same boat as them and I do nothing to rid them on that idea. 

Blindsquirrel

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
  • Age: 6
  • Location: Flyover country
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2019, 06:37:25 PM »
 Nobody cares but my dad knows and my sisters know somewhat. One lifelong friend also.

Dave1442397

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1653
  • Location: NJ
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2019, 06:45:13 PM »
The only people I've ever wondered about are couples we know who seemed to live a lifestyle well above their income level.

It's amazing what people tell you when you just shut up and listen.

Couple 1) Husband has a few drinks one night and tells me how his father was a high-level executive at a big-pharma company, and paid for their house, cash, plus has gifted them the maximum tax-free amount every year since they got married. That explains a lot.

Couple 2) Wife's mom died, and it turned out she was a good saver. The initial estimate of her estate was around $750k, including a property she rented out. After a year of going through her house (she was a hoarder), they found bankbooks, cash, investments they didn't know about, and last I heard they had discovered over $5 million worth of assets.

Couple 3) Live in a house that should leave them pretty tight for cash, but it never stopped the spending - fancy dinners, supporting adult kids, etc. She's telling me how her father's family is one of the richest in Taiwan, and he gave them a 50% deposit for their house, plus plenty of cash over the years.


brooklynmoney

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 707
  • Location: Crooklyn
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2019, 08:41:24 PM »
The good thing about where I live is that there’s always a lot of people that have a lot more than you do so no one would ever consider me rich.

BookLoverL

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
  • Location: England
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2019, 11:57:00 PM »
I'm not super-wealthy yet - I only had around £15,000 at the start of the year - but compared to some of my friends who have only a few months of savings or live paycheck to paycheck, I definitely probably look wealthy to them. I haven't told those friends exactly how much money I have, and I managed to hold off showing the ERE book to them until very recently, because I was trying to avoid making them feel bad (worse) about their poor financial situations (like me, they also don't earn a lot). They did know for quite a while that I like to be frugal and not spend money, but I don't think they knew what effect this was actually having on my bottom line.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8572
  • Location: Norway
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2019, 02:09:19 AM »
I have told my FIL, who himself retired early several decades ago. He understood our plan very well and thinks it is positive.

Recently I told 2 old friends, who are living in another country.
One of them is a very frugal person who is already retired in the normal way. She still camps in a tent on her travels and inspired me to continue to camp, instead of thinking about buying a caravan/camper.
The other one is a person of my own age, with a high mortgage. My plan shocked him a bit and he started thinking about his own situation. He said he had mentioned to his GF (who is a professor and probably well paid) that they had a very high mortgage. But she said the lives now and really enjoys living in their home on a daily basis. So the mortgage is worth it for her. I think our male friend might have prioritized differently. He is currently 15 years in the same job and would like to do something else. But in the region he lives, there aren't that many different employers in his field.
I also told both of these friends that it is going to happen next year. It was really nice to be telling someone honestly. And those are people I don't need to pretend anything for. They all think it is normal to dress cheaply, despite being able to afford expensive clothes.

At home I have told 3 of my colleagues about my plan, but without giving them a date. Two of them are very young people who are frugal, I just wanted to tell them about the option. The third is a frugal person of my age, who is also my kind of person. The 2 who asked for the date, got the answer: without 5 years. I think it is 2 years ago I last said that. So it wasn't even so untrue.
The young people haven't come back to me with more questions after telling them about FIRE.

I would be much more reluctant telling other people, especially if they are not frugal and would never be in a situation to retire early. When we will sell our house and move into the country, I will make up a story about taking a sabbatical.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17593
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2019, 04:56:51 AM »
Thanks to my job title(s), everyone assumes I'm much much wealthier than I will ever be, so I have the opposite where I frequently have to come out as *not* wealthy compared to what people expect of me.

I'm speaking in very relative terms, I make good money, I just don't own a golf course or a helicopter like some of my colleagues.

It's funny for me being on the opposite side of this whole stealth wealth concept. As someone who everyone assumes is very wealthy, I can tell you that virtually no one really cares.

What startles people is when they assumed you were like them, and then find out that you are infinitely more well off.

One of my bad with money relatives was recently talking about how her sister was just as broke as she is because the sister admitted that she hadn't saved anything.
I was like: "uh...your sister and her husband are both retired teachers with full pensions. They're worth at least the equivalent of 1.5-2M"

My broke relative was traumatized. 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 05:13:46 AM by Malkynn »

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8968
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2019, 06:44:41 AM »


For a mid 50's single guy with well past a million in stash in a LCOL area with a paid-off home, I would probably be considered wealthy by many people around here, although I don't personally consider myself wealthy at all, and I bet all of my family and friends would guess I had much less of a stash than I do.  They would probably be especially shocked that I had almost that much outside of my work retirement account.  I drive an older car and live in a typical middle class neighborhood.  I don't have any expensive toys on display such as motorhomes, boats, or expensive motorcycles.  I dress pretty conservatively.  That doesn't mean I'm pretending or hiding, but what would be the point of going around letting people know?  I haven't had anyone offering me handouts, shelter, etc.

He meets the definition of wealthy from a US perspective.   Great calculator that figures out your US percentile of wealth.   

https://www.shnugi.com/networth-percentile-calculator/?min_age=50&max_age=55&networth=1500000#results



Or there's the international one, which is a real eye opener:

www.globalrichlist.com



You meet the definition of wealthy for sure from a global perspective
[/quote]
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 08:17:23 PM by SwordGuy »

Laura33

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3522
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2019, 07:54:05 AM »
It's less "actively hiding" and more the result of natural lifestyle choices.  I am comfortable in a "normal" life, without lots of fancy trappings, without showing off or preening about.  So we chose a "normal" neighborhood, because that fit the way we wanted to live.  It's a pretty typical old-fashioned Americana neighborhood -- you can walk everywhere, there's a little "downtown" strip, the houses are nice but not fancy, the public schools are IMO great but not always ranked as highly as I think they should be, people are basically teachers or engineers or nurses or government workers and drive later-model Japanese sedans or minivans (and drive them for a long time), etc.  The difference is that we make at least twice as much as the people around us; we are living well below our means, while they are living closer to theirs.*  So just the very fact of living that lifestyle for a couple of decades made us wealthy, simply because it meant that we had the opportunity to save so much more than everyone else around us.  As a result, we are neither actively "hiding" nor "flaunting" anything; we are just living the lifestyle we want.** 

I do hide the details from my relatives, though.  Part of that is the old Midwestern values of "you don't brag."  And part of it is that most of my relatives are not doing as well financially as we are, and I want to have good relationships with them, which would not be possible if they thought I was lording it over them.  They can guess based on our jobs and lifestyle that we're doing well, but we just don't talk about it -- but also, really, how often would that come up anyway?  Strikes me as a massively boring topic of conversation.  I am more likely to discuss ideas (e.g., the concept of FIRE, the Shockingly Simple Math, etc.) than specifics, because that's much more interesting anyway.

*Because we live in a prudent, responsible area, I am confident that most of our neighbors have an emergency fund and fund their 401(k)s at least to some degree.  ;-)  They are not the type to fund an extravagant lifestyle with consumer debt. 

**In fact, the biggest concern I had about buying my StupidCar was that it would set us apart from our neighbors.  I was afraid it would look like showing off and single us out as braggy entitled twits.  But then I thought, you know, I never really cared when other people thought I was poorer than I was based on my clothes or cooking at home or whatever, so why should I care what they think now?  Besides, they probably think I am drowning in debt to pay for it.  ;-)

kanga1622

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 421
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2019, 10:22:27 AM »
I do not hide our financial goals from my family. As the baby of the family, my siblings are always trying to "help" when we are together. As in, I am never allowed to pay for a group meal, my siblings will not accept gas money if we travel a great distance together, they won't let me pay for sharing a hotel room with them, etc. But I am a LOT farther ahead of where they were at my age and I make quite a bit less than 3/4 of them. They just have a hard time understanding that 2 young kids and one car are choices we've made but aren't dictated completely by finances.

My MIL is a huge Ramsey fan so I can talk some things with her and she understands us looking for deals. She's always happy to have us tag along when they go to Costco so we don't have to buy a membership for the 2 times a year we would visit.

At work, I am very frugal with our department budget and try to be ultra respectful of resource requests. As I am paid significantly less than most of the people I interact with daily, they are generous with Christmas and Administrative Day gifts knowing they'd have a hard time living on the income I make. :)

Otherwise, I only have one friend I share some of our information with. I keep doing so in the hopes of helping her as I know she's digging out of a large pile of debt that was somewhat made by medical conditions. She has started doing some small things that have helped save a little but still spends far more freely than us. I just keep sharing small pieces of helpful information hoping at some point it sticks. All our other friends/acquaintances think we must be living paycheck to paycheck and I'm happy for them to stay in the dark.

ETA: We are not wealthy by ANY stretch of the imagination but are in FAR better financial shape than almost everyone around us at our income level. I know many people where their household income is 2x ours and yet it is entirely committed to large vehicle payments, massive mortgages, boat payments, camper payments, fancy cell/cable packages, no limit groceries, etc.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 10:26:15 AM by kanga1622 »

Khaetra

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2019, 10:32:50 AM »
I am pretty much the same as Laura33, as my lifestyle choices make me seem 'normal' rather than 'flashy'.  I live in an older established neighborhood, I drive a Fit and my clothing choices are normal (mostly shorts and t-shirts).  I've never been the type to flaunt anything and I think trying to do so would make me extremely uncomfortable.  The only people that know what I am worth is my friends, as they are exactly like me in they have wealth but live normal lives (they all live just a street away).

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2019, 11:14:54 AM »

For a mid 50's single guy with well past a million in stash in a LCOL area with a paid-off home, I would probably be considered wealthy by many people around here, although I don't personally consider myself wealthy at all, and I bet all of my family and friends would guess I had much less of a stash than I do.  They would probably be especially shocked that I had almost that much outside of my work retirement account.  I drive an older car and live in a typical middle class neighborhood.  I don't have any expensive toys on display such as motorhomes, boats, or expensive motorcycles.  I dress pretty conservatively.  That doesn't mean I'm pretending or hiding, but what would be the point of going around letting people know?  I haven't had anyone offering me handouts, shelter, etc.

He meets the definition of wealthy from a US perspective.   Great calculator that figures out your US percentile of wealth.   

https://www.shnugi.com/networth-percentile-calculator/?min_age=50&max_age=55&networth=1500000#results



Or there's the international one, which is a real eye opener:

www.globalrichlist.com



You meet the definition of wealthy for sure from a global perspective

I figure most people would base my wealthiness against people in my own country, if not my own city, not globally.

People define wealthy differently, not always related to money, either.  I saw a survey that resulted in $2.4M being the average net worth to be considered wealthy.  In Chicago specifically, it was $2M.  I don't live in Chicago, but it's the closest big city that was broken out in the survey.  My COL is actually lower than Chicago.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 11:18:38 AM by FIREstache »

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7439
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2019, 11:22:46 AM »
I figure most people would base my wealthiness against people in my own country, if not my own city, not globally.

People define wealthy differently, not always related to money, either.  I saw a survey that resulted in $2.4M being the average net worth to be considered wealthy.  In Chicago specifically, it was $2M.  I don't live in Chicago, but it's the closest big city that was broken out in the survey.  My COL is actually lower than Chicago.

A good rule of thumb is that wealthy is several times more money than the person answering the question has (or makes).

Enigma

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 491
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Clarksville, TN
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2019, 12:12:45 PM »
People define wealthy differently, not always related to money, either.  I saw a survey that resulted in $2.4M being the average net worth to be considered wealthy.

A good rule of thumb is that wealthy is several times more money than the person answering the question has (or makes).

I kind of like the $2.4M being the avg net worth to be considered wealthy statement.  I used to think I just needed $1M to become a millionnaire.  Then I read everywhere it needed to be at least 2M or 10M.  Also read it had to be Net Worth -or- just Assets.  I think I am going to set that as my 'Wealthy' goal.

Going back to the original question, "Wealthy people: Are you "out"?  Why or why not?"
Usually I am not "out" as wealthy.  Mostly because it attracts individuals that want something for nothing.  Recently I was asked for a loan from someone that has no motivation to work.  They are also currently not working.  It is hard to pick up rental checks in a brand new car.  I would rather people think of me as struggling to get to the top.  Then as I get closer to the mark I move the bar a little higher.

brute

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 691
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2019, 12:15:29 PM »
I do my best to not be out, it makes it pretty uncomfortable around the family dinner table when relatives start asking me to fund their vacations or college or whatever. People know I guess, but the less I mention anything money related, the smoother my relationships go.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1531
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2019, 01:42:05 PM »
I am 33 with a pretty modest net worth of 165k or so.

I am somewhat "out" with people who are 5-10 years younger who think that's a pretty big number, just to give them an accurate idea of what duplex living, HSA maxing, company stock buying, 401k match but nothing beyond can bring you over the course of 5 or so years. (Yes, I know we're supposed to put more in our 401k. I have yet to go full mustache.)

But I am 100% "out" when it comes to the bandsaw, router table, track saw, and other sweet woodworking equipment I am even quicker to show off. What good is money if you can't have awesome tools and make awesome stuff?


jpdx

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 760
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2019, 02:51:57 PM »
Makes you wonder how many of your friends are actually stealthy-wealthy.

SimpleCycle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
  • Location: Chicago
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2019, 02:54:13 PM »
Most people know our job titles and industries, so it's not hard to put 2+2 together.  We don't make flashy spending choices, and we live in a very modest home compared to our peers.  I have a few friends who I talk about money with in generalities, and so they know that we save aggressively over pursuing other spending goals.

I have several friends who are Mustachians but don't call it that.  I have a set of doctor/lawyer couple friends where the wife still wears clothes from college and they live in a 1 bedroom condo because they don't feel they need any more.  And an engineer/professor couple who live in a very modest house and take almost exclusively domestic driving vacations.  I often idly wonder what their net worths are, since both have had a longer run of high income than we have.  I suspect both are pretty close to FI even if they don't plan to retire.

dodojojo

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2019, 03:50:31 PM »
I live in a high wealth area so by local benchmark, I'm not wealthy at all.  I'm probably part of the poor relations crowd.  A retired friend in my neighborhood recently sold her house and moved into a $1.5M condo nearby.  Knowing her she probably doesn't consider herself wealthy. She also helped with condos buys for her children (though not at the 7 figure level). That really opened my eyes to where I stand.  My networth is puny in my neck of the woods.

The positive is I don't have to worry about "hiding it."  But I do refrain from giving any numbers to my family because I have one family member who is highly irresponsible and has "borrowed" money from all of us.  Borrow in quotation marks because they turn into cash gifts since he doesn't repay his loans.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 03:52:35 PM by dodojojo »

exterous

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 174
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2019, 03:52:09 PM »
I think people think we are at least well off but not for the right reason. People see the 3-4 international trips per year we take and do math with how much they think those should cost. They don't see the miles and points used, hitting up grocery stores and markets to self-cater instead of restaurants 3x a day, public transportation and feet instead of cabs and tour buses etc. Even when I tell people how we travel it doesn't really sink in - or so it appears from the snide comments some relatives make.

EndlessJourney

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
  • Location: No Fixed Address (formerly Toronto)
  • Nomad? Yes, Mad!
    • 7 Years Round the World by Motorcycle
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2019, 03:56:37 PM »
Depends on how you define wealthy. Income or Stache?

I make considerably less per annum than pretty much all my peers.

But then again, I haven't worked in over seven years.

My annual spend is a fraction of what they spend.... on their two-week vacation.

So, nothing to be "out" about, as far as I'm concerned.

scottish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2716
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2019, 05:17:41 PM »
No we're not out.    I have mentioned that I'm getting ready to retire in a year or two & people give me strange looks.     I'm 54, fer Pete's sake.   It's not really early retirement.

Once in a while something slips out, but I don't think anyone is taking it seriously.

use2betrix

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2502
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2019, 05:48:55 PM »
My parents, a cousin, and a very small number of very close friends know my income. Only my parents and 2 friends know roughly my net worth.

I would not feel comfortable accepting gifts from friends/family who were doing so under the impression I needed help. If I died or became ill, I have a huge fear that someone could start a gofundme.

My boss knows what I make, and has to assume I save a ton knowing my lifestyle (we’re friends outside of work). He has to see I drive a 20 year old Camry despite making $300k a year, knowing I live in a modest 2 bedroom apt in a LCOL area with no state income tax, no kids, and a very frugal wife.

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2019, 05:59:24 PM »
I'm all for not talking about money in public, which means that no one other than your partner should know how much you earn.

I don't care about actively hiding assets or lifestyle choices, though. That seems like a mental imposition to me that I can't be bothered with. I think most of my family/friends know I'm doing okay. Fortunately for me, I don't associate with any envious/needy types so there is no issue there.

I think the only thing I do to be 'stealthy' is that I don't show off my nice car, nice holidays etc on Instagram or otherwise - but that is more because I dislike self-promotion than because I'm actively trying to be stealthy about it.

If you are successful, own it! Who cares what others think. The only times I've tried to downplay my wealth are when I had some sort of business rationale for doing so.

LaDeeDa

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2019, 01:24:32 AM »
The older I get, the less I hide it.

Part of me still feels the sting of being labelled a rich kid when I went to college. Professors belittled the creative accomplishments of historical figures because of their parents support. People's eyes popped a bit when I told them my home town. So, yes, in an effort to blend in, I learned to hide where I'm from.

As I get more secure in my own 40 year old skin, I'm less worried about the stereotypes.

Also, I've found philanthropic organisations set up for people with inherited wealth. Having a place where I can be really open about that part of my life has been helpful in quieting the fears of judgement.


Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8572
  • Location: Norway
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2019, 02:01:27 AM »
I have told my FIL, who himself retired early several decades ago. He understood our plan very well and thinks it is positive.

Recently I told 2 old friends, who are living in another country.
One of them is a very frugal person who is already retired in the normal way. She still camps in a tent on her travels and inspired me to continue to camp, instead of thinking about buying a caravan/camper.
The other one is a person of my own age, with a high mortgage. My plan shocked him a bit and he started thinking about his own situation. He said he had mentioned to his GF (who is a professor and probably well paid) that they had a very high mortgage. But she said the lives now and really enjoys living in their home on a daily basis. So the mortgage is worth it for her. I think our male friend might have prioritized differently. He is currently 15 years in the same job and would like to do something else. But in the region he lives, there aren't that many different employers in his field.
I also told both of these friends that it is going to happen next year. It was really nice to be telling someone honestly. And those are people I don't need to pretend anything for. They all think it is normal to dress cheaply, despite being able to afford expensive clothes.

At home I have told 3 of my colleagues about my plan, but without giving them a date. Two of them are very young people who are frugal, I just wanted to tell them about the option. The third is a frugal person of my age, who is also my kind of person. The 2 who asked for the date, got the answer: without 5 years. I think it is 2 years ago I last said that. So it wasn't even so untrue.
The young people haven't come back to me with more questions after telling them about FIRE.

I would be much more reluctant telling other people, especially if they are not frugal and would never be in a situation to retire early. When we will sell our house and move into the country, I will make up a story about taking a sabbatical.

I forgot to mention that the friend who is retired, started the conversation by telling me that DH must have been saving a lot during our lives, living modestly as we do, while having good incomes. As she hit the nail on the head, I told her about our retirement plans.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17593
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2019, 05:19:36 AM »
I'm all for not talking about money in public, which means that no one other than your partner should know how much you earn.

It sounds like you are saying that *no one* should talk openly about their income except to their spouse.

Why??? That seems pretty extreme.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2062
  • Location: ME
    • FI With Purpose
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2019, 06:22:44 AM »
I'm all for not talking about money in public, which means that no one other than your partner should know how much you earn.

It sounds like you are saying that *no one* should talk openly about their income except to their spouse.

Why??? That seems pretty extreme.

If people know your career, then they know how much you make.

If a coworker asks how much I make, I tell them. Sometimes that makes them angry or glad depending on the difference. I had a coworker in my first job where we both made sure that we were relatively being paid the same amount and had similar raises.

Someone else I shared my salary history with seemed displeased that they weren't being paid as much despite having put in more years at the company.

As a software engineer, I would assume everyone knows that I make good money. The majority of SE's don't make the 200k range, actually I would assume most never break 120k. But even for the amount of money I make, few people ask how to become a programmer. They know it's tough and some people don't have any interest in the work.

I think similarly about doctors. I knew how much they made, but when I thought about the schooling, hours, etc. required, you literally couldn't pay me to put that many hours into a job like that despite the money. I don't begrudge any doctor their money. (CEO's on the other hand...)

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2350
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2019, 06:31:51 AM »
I guess the question is. Do you have a reason for sharing, and what is it?  What benefit is there to sharing that information?  If you have met a kindred spirit that you trust or want to mentor someone who you trust, those might be good circumstances for sharing a little, but not too much.

BTDretire

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3074
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2019, 06:49:44 AM »
Mostly not out. I have a couple of breakfast buddies that have plenty of money, so we do talk about money and investments.
I don't know their stache amount and they don't know mine, but we all know the other has enough to live well on 4%.
My buddies also live middle class lives.
 I live in a 1600 ft 3 bedroom ranch, and my newest car is 11 years old. So we don't have any displays of wealth.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17593
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2019, 07:05:55 AM »
I guess the question is. Do you have a reason for sharing, and what is it?  What benefit is there to sharing that information?  If you have met a kindred spirit that you trust or want to mentor someone who you trust, those might be good circumstances for sharing a little, but not too much.

If I'm talking about personal finance, which I do A LOT, I'm probably going to talk about my income. I really don't see any need for secrecy. I certainly don't need someone to be a kindred spirit and to trust them deeply. It's not that precious a piece of information.

My DH's income is literally public information, so everyone knows what he makes, down to a 5% range, based on his job title alone. No negative effect had ever resulted from literally everyone knowing what he makes.

Bateaux

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
  • Location: Port Vincent
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2019, 08:03:46 AM »
Ride a 19 year old bike, drive 11 year old car, live in $52,000 house.  Stealth Wealth.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2019, 08:30:49 AM »
I'm substantially less stealthy now that I've crossed the RE threshold.  When people find out that I'm retired at this age, they sort of naturally assume that I'm comfortably well off. 

For people that I've just met, who don't know that I'm retired, I think the assumption is the exact opposite.  When you meet a dirty dude out around town at 10am on a Wednesday, I think the natural assumption is that he's unemployed, not retired.  And I certainly spend a lot more time covered in mud and grime these days than I did when I was riding a cubicle in a button down.  I'm sure I looked a lot richer than I do now back when I was a working stiff.

Gyosho

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: us-west-1
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2019, 08:37:53 AM »
Even though I am "out" as retired (and therefore wealthy) to many people, they don't seem to actually understand how wealthy I am.

I attribute this to two factors:

1. I don't have a car (cars are a MAJOR signifier of wealth where I live).
2. I am a single woman.

I have literally told my 2 best friends how much money I have, totaling up my pension, my investments, and my real estate equity, and they still like to give me talks about the dangers of inflation and making sure I don't outlive my income.

Makes me laugh.

Adam Zapple

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 473
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2019, 08:41:35 AM »
I have the advantage of having family and friends that make a higher wage than I do so it is easy to play the poor person.  Only my parents know how much money I have.  We are not rich by my standard but have more than most and don't tell people or show it.

FIRE@50

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Maryland
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2019, 09:05:49 AM »
Makes you wonder how many of your friends are actually stealthy-wealthy.
I just assume that most Americans are stealth-in-shocking-amounts-of-debt.

I do live and work in a wealthy area and I assume that most people around here have more wealth than me.

PaulMaxime

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 302
  • Age: 60
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
  • Absolute power doesn't corrupt, it reveals.
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2019, 09:06:55 AM »
This is an interesting question. I think people assume that I'm well off because I own a home in San Francisco. I also work at a successful startup (one of the early employees) so people around here assume you are doing well.

Of course it's not fashionable around here to show off wealth. The guy on the bus next to you in the worn hoodie and Chuck Taylors might be the next Mark Zuckerberg.

I also counsel several of the younger folks at the company on saving and investing. So they know something's up but generally people don't talk about it, even though some of us are quite well off.

Maybe the subtle clues are there, but it's not something I talk about.

FIRE 20/20

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 761
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2019, 09:08:09 AM »
Half in, half out?  Everyone who knows me knows that my partner and I have 2 engineering incomes, no kids, and are retiring this week at 42/43.  So - that set of facts definitely outs me.  However, we drive old cars, live in a modest house, dress in exercise clothes outside of work, and don't display any other signs of wealth.  I'd guess that people who don't know me don't have any thoughts at all about my wealth, but if they did they'd probably think I'm living paycheck to paycheck just like everyone else. 

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7439
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2019, 09:25:13 AM »
Several folks have commented on the idea that if people know what you do, they know about how much you make. How generally true is that? At least for interacting with folks who don't know me well, I can describe my job honestly in several different ways that seem to produce very different mental expectations about how much I make.

Low income: "I work at (local university)" if questioned can I follow up with "Yeah, I teach in (name of department)."

Medium income: "I'm a professor over at (local university)" if questioned I can follow up with "Yeah, I work on (name of field of study which is quite different from name of department)."

High income: "I'm a (name for people who work in my field, either in the public or private sectors)" if questioned I can follow up with "Right now I have a startup working on (stuff) and a faculty position over at (local university)."

All three answers are honest (if sometimes a little incomplete), but I do notice the different presentations elicit different reactions. It can be useful for trying to calibrate to reduce apparent gaps in socioeconomic status with people you meet, which in turn generally leads to more interesting conversations than if the other person decides there is a big gulf in either direction.

But mostly I just try to avoid talking about myself to begin with.

FIRE 20/20

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 761
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2019, 09:32:25 AM »
Several folks have commented on the idea that if people know what you do, they know about how much you make. How generally true is that? At least for interacting with folks who don't know me well, I can describe my job honestly in several different ways that seem to produce very different mental expectations about how much I make.

As an engineer in the middle of the U.S. and in the middle of my career, I think people could make a pretty good guess about my income.  For me on the low end, I could just say I'm an engineer and people would probably guess that I make $90k-120k.  If I say I manage a team of engineers, they might guess $110-140k.  If I say I lead an R&D team in the particular domain I'm working in, they might guess $130-200k.  While that's a pretty large range (90k-200k) I think it is small enough that people can make reasonable assumptions about what kinds of things we can afford (comfortable lifestyle) and can't afford (yacht). 

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2076
Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2019, 09:59:44 AM »
We all know people who make $500k/ year who basicly are in debt with no savings.

We do?